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Berserk => Speculation Nation => Topic started by: Aazealh on April 01, 2009, 05:23:12 PM

Title: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 01, 2009, 05:23:12 PM
We've talked about this in the past, but never had a poll. Who do you think will first get what's coming to him? Who will do the deed, and how? Who will be the second or third? Don't hesitate to expose and develop your thoughts on the matter. :zodd:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Rhombaad on April 01, 2009, 05:46:13 PM
I'm predicting Rakshas will be the first to go (sorry Handsome :rakshas:).  My guess is we'll see his apostle form for the first time during said final battle, too.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 01, 2009, 06:02:31 PM
I'm predicting Rakshas will be the first to go (sorry Handsome :rakshas:).  My guess is we'll see his apostle form for the first time during said final battle, too.

Really? Interesting. Since we know so little of him, I don't really expect him to be the first. But it makes sense in a way, and it wouldn't be unprecedented (I mean I've already seen similar things in other stories). Still, I'd be sad if we didn't get to see more of him than just one fight.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Rhombaad on April 01, 2009, 08:18:07 PM
Really? Interesting. Since we know so little of him, I don't really expect him to be the first. But it makes sense in a way, and it wouldn't be unprecedented (I mean I've already seen similar things in other stories). Still, I'd be sad if we didn't get to see more of him than just one fight.

Only time will tell. :void:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: TheBranded1 on April 01, 2009, 08:41:57 PM
I voted for Irvine, although we just recently saw his apostle form. I just thought he might not have such luck and if Sonia keeps riding with him, might interrupt him from battle and find his demise.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 01, 2009, 08:47:14 PM
I just thought he might not have such luck and if Sonia keeps riding with him, might interrupt him from battle and find his demise.

Hahaha, are you serious? That's just ridiculous. No way Miura would have him die like that. It'd just be bad. Like, Sonia distracts him and he's killed? Come on...
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: The Beast of Darkness on April 01, 2009, 08:51:34 PM
Interesting question...
I would hesitate between Grunbeld or Locus,the first one already fought Guts in the past, so I think that he would be the first one to cross Guts road and try to get his revenge.
It's really not easy to predict, knowing Miura!.

Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Kalie Ma on April 02, 2009, 04:22:50 AM
I voted Grunbeld because I think he's very prideful as seen in the battle with Guts in volumes 26-27. Among them I think he's the most deserving of death right now  :azan:

But I know that's not really a good enough reason, so my real vote is because it seems to me that we have seen a lot of Grunbeld versus the other apostles who still have much to show. The others have many enigmas and mysteries around them, where we already know Grunbeld's past, apostle form, motivations, on and on... But someone like Locus and especailly Rakshas are still very mysterious to us...

Anyway, that's my vote.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 02, 2009, 07:55:10 AM
where we already know Grunbeld's past, apostle form, motivations, on and on...

I wouldn't say that we know much about his past or even his motivations past just being an apostle that serves Griffith. If anything I'd like to be told more about that sometime in the future.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: m on April 02, 2009, 07:15:42 PM
I voted for Irvine because as far as I remember he only fights from a distance and I'm not sure how he would do on close combat. He's always been a hunter but for some reason I'm under the impression that he seems to rely on being furtive and that may not be very effective fighting Guts, specially if there is somebody in his party with the ability to detect him even if he's hiding.

Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Rhombaad on April 02, 2009, 07:41:05 PM
I voted for Irvine because as far as I remember he only fights from a distance and I'm not sure how he would do on close combat. He's always been a hunter but for some reason I'm under the impression that he seems to rely on being furtive and that may not be very effective fighting Guts, specially if there is somebody in his party with the ability to detect him even if he's hiding.

The question is, would Guts or any of the group be able to get within close combat range before getting hairrowed. :SK:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: m on April 02, 2009, 07:47:36 PM
The question is, would Guts or any of the group be able to get within close combat range before getting hairrowed. :SK:

What if in addition of having a good fighter in close combat and somebody capable to detect somebody who's hiding, they had somebody who could deflect projectiles somehow, like with wind?  :carcus:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 02, 2009, 08:13:36 PM
What if in addition of having a good fighter in close combat and somebody capable to detect somebody who's hiding, they had somebody who could deflect projectiles somehow, like with wind?  :carcus:

The problem is that Irvine can shoot arrows from far, far away. And that he shoots many at once. Powerfully enough to decapitate armored soldiers. So I don't think it'll be as simple as Serpico deflecting them with his cloak, though I'm sure his control over the wind will help one way or another. :zodd:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Rhombaad on April 02, 2009, 08:22:11 PM
The problem is that Irvine can shoot arrows from far, far away. And that he shoots many at once. Powerfully enough to decapitate armored soldiers. So I don't think it'll be as simple as Serpico deflecting them with his cloak, though I'm sure his control over the wind will help one way or another. :zodd:

It'd make for an interesting match, that's for sure. Here's hoping they meet up at some point.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Bekul on April 02, 2009, 10:44:34 PM
Not to mention that an arrow to the face at point blank range would be even /more/ devastating than one at distance (though Irvine doesn't seem to have that distance=less penetration power problem, really) - not to mention much harder to dodge.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Xem on April 02, 2009, 11:13:52 PM
I voted for Irvine as well, though it was a close call with Locus. I made my decision on the basis that Irvine seems most likely to sacrifice himself in order for the people around him to survive... and he doesn't strike me as quite as powerful as the others.

Ironically enough though, he's one of my favorite members of the new Band of the Hawk.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: m on April 03, 2009, 05:19:56 AM
The problem is that Irvine can shoot arrows from far, far away. And that he shoots many at once. Powerfully enough to decapitate armored soldiers. So I don't think it'll be as simple as Serpico deflecting them with his cloak, though I'm sure his control over the wind will help one way or another. :zodd:

Oddly enough, I wasn't thinking about his cloak but his sword, which as you know is capable of cutting through trolls at a distance. My crazy idea was having him swinging his sword to stop whatever Irvine throws at the group. I was thinking that one swing could perhaps be able to destroy more than one projectile at once.

Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 03, 2009, 07:41:22 AM
Oddly enough, I wasn't thinking about his cloak but his sword, which as you know is capable of cutting through trolls at a distance. My crazy idea was having him swinging his sword to stop whatever Irvine throws at the group. I was thinking that one swing could perhaps be able to destroy more than one projectile at once.

I see. It could work (and I've always thought Serpico would play an important role in that fight if it were to occur anyway), but I still don't think it'll be as simple as that. Kind of like the time he managed to block Ganishka's lightning. Did it once, but couldn't have withstood more. If it happens like that, it'll surely be a great ordeal for him to deflect Irvine's attacks.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: smoke on April 03, 2009, 08:55:41 AM
I don't really see the apostles dying off one by one, so my vote when for "Two or more".

I'm having a hard time picturing a scenario where they would be seperated and dying off (given the storyline as it stands now).

And I don't mean that two will be killed simultaneously, within the same frame or something. But during the same chapter or something? Yeah, prolly.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Walter on April 03, 2009, 03:09:21 PM
I'm having a hard time picturing a scenario where they would be seperated and dying off (given the storyline as it stands now).
I'd say things are setting up to be the opposite actually. After the war, peace will probably cause Griffith's forces to spread out to get some autonomy amongst themselves. And at that point, Guts and Co. would hunt them down one by one :rakshas:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Jarome on April 03, 2009, 06:26:53 PM
I'd say things are setting up to be the opposite actually. After the war, peace will probably cause Griffith's forces to spread out to get some autonomy amongst themselves. And at that point, Guts and Co. would hunt them down one by one :rakshas:
Not exactly my thoughts Walter. The possibility that they'll leave Guts & Co hunt them one by one doesn't quite get into my mind.  :???:

It wouldn't make sense because these apostles are very strong for sure and they have lived for many more years than humans would. They have obtained a sense of awareness and they cannot be tricked by Guts' group and die by un-original "hunt for the heads of the lieutenants 'till Zodd" (because he's most likely the strongest apostle aside the God Hands).

This isn't how Miura has brought up any epic battles or in terms of plotline, Berserk isn't the "usual shounen" manga-type, this is a serious adult seinen, this isn't Naruto/Bleach.

So it ain't hard to tell that my vote went for "two or more" and my guess would be Grunbeld + Irvine (Serpico serving an arrow decoy or something would be great)  :serpico:

I just can't wait 'till we get to see how Miura's gonna bring the fall of the lieutenants of the new Band of the Hawk.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Walter on April 03, 2009, 06:44:02 PM
Quote
It wouldn't make sense because these apostles are very strong for sure and they have lived for many more years than humans would. They have obtained a sense of awareness and they cannot be tricked by Guts' group and die by un-original "hunt for the heads of the lieutenants 'till Zodd" (because he's most likely the strongest apostle aside the God Hands).
But I think it's your specific portrayal here that's cheesy and unoriginal. You must not have a very vivid imagination if  you think it has to play out "just like" a shounen series. I just said that I think at some point, Guts and Co. would begin seeking out apostles, and a good way to go about that is to try to take them out one by one.  Anyway, I'm not completely sold on the idea either, which is why i didn't expound on it further. It's just a thought, but it's not without precedent. See below...

Quote
This isn't how Miura has brought up any epic battles or in terms of plotline, Berserk isn't the "usual shounen" manga-type, this is a serious adult seinen, this isn't Naruto/Bleach.
So volumes 1-3; 14-17 are too shounen as well, then? You know, when Guts was hunting apostles down one by one?  :schierke:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Jarome on April 03, 2009, 07:16:53 PM
But I think it's your specific portrayal here that's cheesy and unoriginal. You must not have a very vivid imagination if  you think it has to play out "just like" a shounen series.
I was tryin' to say that it won't be played out as a shounen series, there will be no "hunt" of such strong apostles, they are the beasts, they are the one tracking. Sorry if I didn't made myself clear enough about this...

Quote
So volumes 1-3; 14-17 are too shounen as well, then? You know, when Guts was hunting apostles down one by one?  :schierke:
These apostles somehow knew they were being tracked at one point and they were careless, kept underestimating Guts and they are clearly not strong/intelligent as the lieutenants of the Band of the Hawk. :rakshas:

Anyway... we're only speculating, nobody knows how it'll all happen aside :miura:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Walter on April 03, 2009, 07:33:23 PM
These apostles somehow knew they were being tracked at one point and they were careless, kept underestimating Guts and they are clearly not strong/intelligent as the lieutenants of the Band of the Hawk. :rakshas:
Again, you seem to be forgetting things that have already happened... Where was Grunbeld's superior strength and intelligence when he underestimated Guts and nearly got himself killed? (http://skullknight.net/images/beastgrin2.gif)
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Xem on April 03, 2009, 09:16:50 PM
I'm surprised Grunbeld is winning this, he seems like one of the most powerful apostles we've ever seen. Is it because Guts has shown he's capable of hurting him?

I'm also surprised that most people seem to assume that Guts or one of his new companions will be the one's killing them, who's to say they won't die by another means? There's still a lot of story to go through before Guts even returns from Elfhelm and knowing Miura anything could happen in that time. Skull Knight, anyone? Hell, Ganishka isn't even dead yet, and he's fully capable. I once theorized that one of them would die, or at least be severely injured, in this fight. Though it doesn't look quite as likely anymore it's still totally possible.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Jarome on April 03, 2009, 11:06:13 PM
I'm also surprised that most people seem to assume that Guts or one of his new companions will be the one's killing them, who's to say they won't die by another means?
Skullknight will take Zodd's life, then he'll die by killing Void!  :badbone:

Quote from: Walter
Again, you seem to be forgetting things that have already happened... Where was Grunbeld's superior strength and intelligence when he underestimated Guts and nearly got himself killed?
Yes and it is at that very point where Guts became more than just a human swordman, let's just say that the berserker armor is very capable of killing apostle lieutenants. I don't believe they'll (Grunbeld first) ever underestimate him anymore  :chomp:
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Black_Devil on April 04, 2009, 03:45:49 AM
Zodd. Just because he's had the longest tenure, I'd see him dying before any of the other ones, but of course this could also work in his favor as him being the last one to die.  I think either Guts or SK will end Zodd's legend.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 04, 2009, 07:33:40 AM
I'm surprised Grunbeld is winning this, he seems like one of the most powerful apostles we've ever seen. Is it because Guts has shown he's capable of hurting him?

The others are also among the most powerful apostles we've ever seen. In fact, putting Ganishka aside, the lot of them ARE the most powerful apostles, period. The reason people choose Grunbeld is because he's the one we've seen the most among the new guys and that he's already got a bit of a personal history with Guts.

Im also surprised that most people seem to assume that Guts or one of his new companions will be the one's killing them, who's to say they won't die by another means?

Maybe that's because Guts is the protagonist of the story.

Yes and it is at that very point where Guts became more than just a human swordman, let's just say that the berserker armor is very capable of killing apostle lieutenants. I don't believe they'll (Grunbeld first) ever underestimate him anymore  :chomp:

It's not like Guts wasn't in a dire state at the time because of his encounter with Slan. His non-fight (he mostly just took hits) before donning the armor wasn't representative of his abilities. And the armor itself only enhances its wearer. Don't misrepresent things.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: BLG on April 04, 2009, 08:07:15 AM
I went with Rakshas on this one, just because I think Miura hasn't been focusing on him too much. Surely there is time for more character development, but ol' Rakshas just seems like a one trick pony to me. He's got to go soon, and Guts and co. will do the deed.

I don't understand how anybody would vote for Zodd. I think he'll almost surely be the last one standing. There has to be an ultimate :zodd: vs. :SK: battle and I'm rooting for Mr. Bones!
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Black_Devil on April 04, 2009, 02:28:11 PM
BLG: Just Zodd's always fighting lifestyle(though admittedly he's toned it down since joining Griffith) would lead me to believe he'd die first, but upon second thought, he's no longer the wandering warrior constantly seeking battles, so maybe not.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Death May Die on April 06, 2009, 05:07:18 AM
I like how the Manga is kinda almost allowing us to root, or engage with characters in the NEW band of the hawk. But knowing this, some of these guys are going to die, and one or two of their deaths are going to be kinda sad. We might even be locked in between a battle with someone like Irvine and Guts. Where you don't want to see either of them really die. So assuming that they all die, its pretty much the eclipse part 2...well 3 if you count the recantation stuff. The second time the hawk has fallen.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 06, 2009, 01:23:52 PM
But knowing this, some of these guys are going to die, and one or two of their deaths are going to be kinda sad.

Well they could all die, and while I'm not sure it'll be sad per se, they all have the potential for some pretty cool last moments. Cool stuff in perspective. :guts:

We might even be locked in between a battle with someone like Irvine and Guts. Where you don't want to see either of them really die.

Honestly I'd take Guts over Irvine any day. Sure, Irvine has been portrayed as a nice guy in several occasions and I'm not particularly looking forward to his death, but he's still a monster in the end.

So assuming that they all die, its pretty much the eclipse part 2...well 3 if you count the recantation stuff. The second time the hawk has fallen.

I take it you mean reincarnation, not recantation. And it should just be "incarnation". Anyway, I can't agree with you there. The people around Griffith now are apostles. What happened during the Occultation ceremony that saw Femto's rise was that apostles massacred Griffith's betrayed soldiers. It's hardly the same thing than members of the current Band of the Falcon being attacked and killed in combat against human opponents.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Jarome on April 06, 2009, 04:40:44 PM
Honestly I'd take Guts over Irvine any day. Sure, Irvine has been portrayed as a nice guy in several occasions and I'm not particularly looking forward to his death, but he's still a monster in the end.
Irvine's death would certainly make me sad :judo:

But Locus & Irvine both stand in the "nice guys" category, Rashkas, Grunbeld & Zodd tend to be a little more in the "evil" one... I wonder if Miura really wants to keep his antagonists categorized this way.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Oburi on April 06, 2009, 05:12:49 PM
Irvine's death would certainly make me sad :judo:

But Locus & Irvine both stand in the "nice guys" category, Rashkas, Grunbeld & Zodd tend to be a little more in the "evil" one... I wonder if Miura really wants to keep his antagonists categorized this way.

I wouldn't even say they are nice at all. Some might have more of a badass attitude than others but that doesn't make anyone "nice".  Don't forget who and what they are fighting for. And Griffith himself is a great example of this. He seems reaaaally nice....but he's a monster too, and I won't be sad to see any of them go, especially when it comes down to them fighting Guts. I hope he rips their fucking heads off!
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 06, 2009, 05:17:26 PM
But Locus & Irvine both stand in the "nice guys" category, Rashkas, Grunbeld & Zodd tend to be a little more in the "evil" one... I wonder if Miura really wants to keep his antagonists categorized this way.

I wouldn't describe Locus as being all that nice, really... If you pay attention to some of what he says, he's actually pretty sinister at times (e.g. the end of episode 291), more so than Grunbeld, Rakshas or even Zodd. They all have good sides, yet they're all monsters, and I don't think they're meant to be categorized like you just did.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Walter on April 06, 2009, 05:31:59 PM
And really, don't forget how these "nice guys" became apostles.  It's hard to forgive something like that...
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Death May Die on April 06, 2009, 06:23:25 PM
Yeah, but I get the feeling there is going to be a lot of suffering. Guts takes a lot of pleasure in killing apostles if it gets him one step closer to Griffith. I haven't seen really anything that the "Nicer" apostles have done that is horrorable (yet) to deserve a slow painful death. But hopefully some "backstory" comes in to play, allowing you to see that these guys, maybe who were once unfortunate victims chose the darker side to enhance their beings to over come the odds. If unfortunate at all.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Drakull on April 06, 2009, 06:27:48 PM
For me the first to die by Guts' sword will be Grunbeld, simply because Guts will get revenge on their first fight. :) Zodd is too important too die quickly.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 06, 2009, 09:58:07 PM
Guts takes a lot of pleasure in killing apostles if it gets him one step closer to Griffith.

Does he now? He hates them, but I wouldn't say that killing them gives him "a lot of pleasure". Even during his Black Swordsman days his victories often had a bitter taste (e.g. the Count, Rochine). Same thing with getting closer to Griffith, I'm pretty sure he'd prefer to get to him directly without fighting a horde of henchmen first.

I haven't seen really anything that the "Nicer" apostles have done that is horrorable (yet) to deserve a slow painful death. But hopefully some "backstory" comes in to play, allowing you to see that these guys, maybe who were once unfortunate victims chose the darker side to enhance their beings to over come the odds. If unfortunate at all.

Killing an old lady (Flora)? We haven't seen them eating or torturing people, but don't go thinking that means they aren't evil.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: TheBranded1 on April 06, 2009, 10:06:12 PM
I haven't seen really anything that the "Nicer" apostles have done that is horrorable (yet)

Sacrificing your most precious somebody it's horrible enough for me.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Xem on April 08, 2009, 06:17:27 AM
And really, don't forget how these "nice guys" became apostles.  It's hard to forgive something like that...

Which really makes me wonder, who did Irvine sacrifice? Perhaps a hunting pet? He's portrayed as quite the loner.... maybe that's part of what makes him so likable....
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 08, 2009, 07:55:30 AM
Which really makes me wonder, who did Irvine sacrifice? Perhaps a hunting pet? He's portrayed as quite the loner.... maybe that's part of what makes him so likable....

He might have had someone before. Or, considering his current state, maybe he sacrificed a part of himself (his eyes for example). There's a precedent for it (beherit-apostle), though it was a very special case.
Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Bekul on April 08, 2009, 08:34:23 AM
Hm, excellent observation about Irvine's possible sacrifice - eyes are among the most important tools of a hunter - for an archer, even more so. At risk of derailing the thread, a similar possibility could be that the loss of his eyes could have been what triggered his use of a Beherit.

Title: Re: Who will be the first to die among Griffith's lieutenants?
Post by: Aazealh on April 08, 2009, 12:50:24 PM
a similar possibility could be that the loss of his eyes could have been what triggered his use of a Beherit.

Indeed, that would have certainly been a good reason for him to become an apostle.