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Berserk => Character Cove => Topic started by: Patou244 on January 29, 2014, 01:19:09 AM

Title: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Patou244 on January 29, 2014, 01:19:09 AM
hey I am new to this board and a fairly new Berserk fan in general (only been a regular fan for a about ba year), this manga is awesome and I'm glad I finally got to be involved here. I spent quit a lot of time browsing on here before I started topic of my own and I am pretty sure this hasn't been discussed just yet (or at least I didn't see alot of it in my searches) and I was wondering about the special dynamics of Guts and Corkus from the band of the hawk/falcon days. It is really interesting how these two interacted. Corkus was such a hater and I know some people in the berserk fan base disliked how he was rude to Guts, but I personally liked that aspect about him. I feel that he was one of the few characters that treated him with the level of responsibility a normal person would after he returned after his yearlong absence from the band after Griffith got captured. Unlike most of the other band that not only excused his absence but welcomed him with open arms.

What I found truly amazing about this dynamic between Guts and Corkus was that, even when Corkus was telling Guts off he never got angry or physical with Corkus (and there were times in manga/anime that I thought Guts would have but did not) and even seemed to value his opinion and consider his critisms seriously. I think Guts was one of the few hawks that took Corkus seriously. And though not explicitly stated, Guts seems to remember Corkus fondly in addition to his fondness for the band of the hawk as a whole.

I am very amazed at the clever and subtle way Miura depicts the interactions between these two, Corkus was so aggressive with Guts at times but he walked away unscathed and even boasted how he would love to get into a fight with Guts, even though Corkus would ultimately be terrified if Guts ever came after him for real. All throughout the anime and manga I was always on edge thinking that Corkus was going to cross the line and infuraqte Guts like Casca did at one point after the three year jump in the early manga, but it never happened.

What is everyone’s take on Guts and Corkus's relationship? Does anyone else fined it as fascinating and cleverly rendered as I do?
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Benin on January 29, 2014, 02:21:39 AM
Hey Welcome  :guts:

It indeed is interesting about the relationship between Corkus and Guts, but I feel Corkus was placed there because there needed to be a character that resented Guts. I mean majority of the Band came to warm and appreciate Guts as a member so there needed to be someone at least who disliked him or opposed him. Balance it out a bit. It is was cleverly done though as Corkus resented Guts for killing Dante and making a fool of him in front of the Band and Griffith when they first physically engage Guts.

You could be right but this is my take. Corkus was a hater because their needed to be one in the Band except for Griffith later coming to hate/love Guts! My take and probably worde terribly but you bring up an interesting point!
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Walter on January 29, 2014, 02:37:05 AM
Cool thread! I like Carcus quite a bit. I wrote something similar to the thread you've created here a few years ago: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=7617.msg174491#msg174491

Carcus is the outsider's perspective. He's the counterbalance to all the glad-handing everyone else gives Guts in The Hawks. In my opinion, he's Miura's most well-developed 'everyman' in the series, and because of his modest abilities, is extremely unappreciated by casual readers.

In The Hawks, he's the only one who questions Guts' role and his foolhardy ambition to rise to Griffith's level. He puts him in his place, for just that moment. He's the only one who honestly and unpretentiously expresses his feelings about Guts after he'd announced his intent to leave the Hawks. Probably better advice in the end than the good intentions of Judo.

And if you'll notice, Guts doesn't bear him any ill will,  even when Carcus tells him to "watch his back" on the battlefield. Reread volume 13, episode 90: "Sprint." After all the Hawks are dead, Carcus is one of the first that Guts remembers, and the guy gets several panels dedicated to him. Clearly he was more important to Guts than you give him credit for.  I think it shows that Guts valued him if only for criticizing him when no one else would.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Antonius Block on January 29, 2014, 10:04:59 PM
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Does anyone else fined it as fascinating and cleverly rendered as I do?

I find everything in Berserk fascinating and cleverly rendered.  :serpico:

In terms of Guts and Corkus' relationship, I have not really examined it that closely.

From their first encounter Corkus has played the role of a jealous man seeking revenge for being bested by Guts when Corkus and another group of Hawks attempted to rob him. Then his jealousy stemmed from Griffith's acceptance of Guts, as well as, their first encounter... In my opinion Corkus never really matured to the point where he could really be cool with Guts, let alone friends for that fact. This is why he always gave him such a hard time, and spoke with so much disdain. It must be noted though that everything Corkus said in the tavern w/ Judo and Guts did bear some weight, and perhaps this is why Guts has fond memories of him... Because he spoke the truth before Guts even knew it was true.

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What I found truly amazing about this dynamic between Guts and Corkus was that, even when Corkus was telling Guts off he never got angry or physical with Corkus (and there were times in manga/anime that I thought Guts would have but did not) and even seemed to value his opinion and consider his critisms seriously. I think Guts was one of the few hawks that took Corkus seriously. And though not explicitly stated, Guts seems to remember Corkus fondly in addition to his fondness for the band of the hawk as a whole.

I think that Guts' character is amazing in and of itself, and I am eager to learn of his fate in Berserk. When dealing with Corkus his confidence as a expert swordsman and fighter is what keeps him from turning Corkus into a lump of ground beef. It is also his respect for Griffith's authority and knowing his place as a subordinate in The Band of the Hawk that keeps him from disgracing another officer and possibly damaging the morale of their grunts... Either way, this relationship is one of many examples of Guts' profound character, and it adds to the depth that makes him so special. I don't think that Guts deludes himself with anything. He is very much a realist who sees things for what they are, so it makes sense that he would consider the things that Corkus says to him, especially if it is a way of thought that he himself did not consider...

One other thing I thought of is that even though Guts had pretty much made his mind up about leaving the Band of the Hawk, I believe he was still on the fence, and was searching for a clear solution to what was on his mind. Corkus' comments, while harsh and typically Corkus, still had some bearing on Guts because he was not 100% confident in his choice.

This is a great topic, as it pulls to forefront the amazing talent that Miura has at making his creation so life-like and genuine. Outside of this forum I see where companies and fans lump Berserk into a category of just Dark Fantasy or Ultraviolent Action, but in reality it encompasses everything human, and for that reason it is truly special indeed.

There is no substitution... 
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on February 04, 2014, 09:50:50 PM
Hey I'm new how is everyone! Took a while to get approved.  :zodd:

Meh personally I hated Corkus. He was just a dick and contributed so little to the Hawks. I don't even remember him doing anything. All he ever did was ass-hole it up in Guts face over something he started! I don't find his relationship  or interactions with Guts to be all that deep and layered like some of you are making it out to be. I never understood why he hated Guts so much, Corkus was the one who attacked him first but he got angry because Guts killed one of his men that was obviously from his old highwayman days and had a chip on his shoulder from that point on. In short him being daring to stand up to Guts isn't actually something to admire when he's just being a jealous and petty over it.

Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Hanma_Baki on February 04, 2014, 10:51:48 PM
Took a while to get approved.  :zodd:
Having read your post I can totally see why :troll:
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on February 04, 2014, 11:33:17 PM
oh man, I wasn't trying to rock the boat on my very first post. It is just how I feel about the character Corkus. Guts is my favorite character so anytime I see someone give him a hard time I find it particularly irritating, especially when I it seems like said character doesn't have a good reason to hate on him so much when he pretty much started the conflict to begin with.

The only time I though Corkus had a point was when Guts first came back after leaving the hawks, other than that I never understood his animosoty toward Guts.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Walter on February 05, 2014, 01:11:04 AM
It is just how I feel about the character Corkus. Guts is my favorite character so anytime I see someone give him a hard time I find it particularly irritating
I find this kind of attitude baffling. You don't like the guy because he's mean to the main character? Geez, how do you feel about Femto? ("Ooooh, that big bully!")

 It sounds to me like you just aren't paying attention to details because the character rubs you the wrong way (which is extremely weird to me, since it's a fictional character whose attitude is designed to be that way.). By disregarding these things, you're doing a disservice to a series that's packed with dense characters. And no, they're not all likable. It would be pretty boring if they were...

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it seems like said character doesn't have a good reason to hate on him so much when he pretty much started the conflict to begin with.

Carcus has a damned good reason to mistrust Guts--he disrupted everything.  It's the same with Casca's initial mistrust. Guts was an incalculably valuable asset to the Falcons, but he also changed Griffith and paved the way for their downfall. That's Carcus' meal ticket Guts was messing with. Of course, their relationship was soured from the start, because Guts gained Griffith's favor and rank so quickly despite making his debut with the Falcons by killing their men. Misguided reasoning, sure. But that's who he is.

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The only time I though Corkus had a point was when Guts first came back after leaving the hawks, other than that I never understood his animosoty toward Guts.

Carcus makes things pretty plain at the bar, right before Guts leaves. He found Guts' aspirations ungrateful, given how far they'd come, and he was appalled that Guts would compare himself to Griffith. Keep in mind that Guts never revealed his thoughtfulness to anyone but Casca at this point. To everyone else, he's just been an effective battering ram for the Falcons in battles; a meathead who chose to spend time alone so he could swing a sword 200 times in a row. Suddenly, once they've taken hold of their goal, this dumb jock turns around and says he aspires to something greater in life. Carcus is saying: Get over yourself...

There's also a nuance to his character revealed in that scene that I don't think many pay attention to--Carcus' bitterness at Guts is grounded in his own failed dream. Judo implies that maybe he had one of his own, and it didn't work out. Instead, he allied himself to Griffith's dream (like many others). And what Guts is saying is that that's not enough for him. Well, I can understand where Carcus is coming from, given that context.

Given all of these reasons Miura has laid out for astute readers, I find it pretty absurd that you think Carcus is just some mean guy aimlessly hating on Guts.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Hanma_Baki on February 05, 2014, 09:56:31 PM
Yeah I never did get that kinda thought process behind characters either, its practically the same thing with the whole Femto/Griffith hate campaign, as you alluded to as well. But that seems to be the most popular opinion in my experience, casual readers I guess. Its just always fascinated me how they motivate that take on a character. What's really funny is that more often than not Guts isnt exactly a saint himself, which is normally the one character they stand by in contrast to the "bad guy" in question.

It's like they want to hate that character so badly that they make him/her out to be as shallow as possible in order to make him/her justifiably less likable. Now...What if Berserk fans' collective distaste of certain characters disires a reason?! :troll:
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: krzykoopa on February 05, 2014, 11:19:21 PM
In all seriousness is it really that hard to believe why there would be so many  :griffnotevil:/ :femto: haters? The fact that people hate on characters is a good thing it means they developed a strong liking of the character who is getting screwed over  --> :guts:<--. Now I understand completely the sentiment here for appreciating the layers and the hate campaigns alike. I mean this guy  :mozgus: is such a deep character but I wouldn't be mad if someone just wrote him off as a fanatic. I appreciate the depth of every character and all the subtleties thats Miura has put forth I am constantly learning and evolving my views of these characters, I do however remember my initial opinion of Corkus (what a dick) and that stayed throughout his entire existence. On my second read I thought about him more and I stopped thinking of him as just a moron and I understood his motivations. My opinion of him is quite harsh now especially that it is well thought out. This is why I really enjoy berserk and why I like this forum  :SK:.net I admit these discussions I enjoy quite a bit.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Walter on February 06, 2014, 01:37:54 AM
In all seriousness is it really that hard to believe why there would be so many  :griffnotevil:/ :femto: haters? The fact that people hate on characters is a good thing it means they developed a strong liking of the character who is getting screwed over  --> :guts:<--.

I don't understand the sentiment at all, quite honestly. At first I wanted to think maybe it was something that casual readers feel, but I'm racking my brain to think of an example that I can agree with even independent of Berserk. I mean, do you hate Sauron for being Sauron? It strikes me as a totally crazy idea. It's especially incomprehensible to me for Berserk, which has very nuanced characters who Miura has spent time grounding with motivations. Not all are likable, but they're all interesting enough to appreciate. Hating seems to fly in the face of that.

Perhaps other people experience storytelling differently... But I think hating a fictional character, whose actions, attitude and emotions all serve a function in the author's story, is preposterous. Do I get emotional during the Eclipse, knowing that Guts' life is being torn apart? Yes. But did it happen to me, and are my emotions the same as Guts'? No, it's an absurd notion. It's not personal for readers--it's a story that we are experiencing as observers. That pain and those characters are all part of the story that we enjoy reading.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: krzykoopa on February 06, 2014, 05:56:19 AM
I don't understand the sentiment at all, quite honestly. At first I wanted to think maybe it was something that casual readers feel, but I'm racking my brain to think of an example that I can agree with even independent of Berserk. I mean, do you hate Sauron for being Sauron? It strikes me as a totally crazy idea. It's especially incomprehensible to me for Berserk, which has very nuanced characters who Miura has spent time grounding with motivations.  Not all are likable, but they're all interesting enough to appreciate. Hating seems to fly in the face of that.

Perhaps other people experience storytelling differently... But I think hating a fictional character, whose actions, attitude and emotions all serve a function in the author's story, is preposterous. Do I get emotional during the Eclipse, knowing that Guts' life is being torn apart? Yes. But did it happen to me, and are my emotions the same as Guts'? No, it's an absurd notion. It's not personal for readers--it's a story that we are experiencing as observers. That pain and those characters are all part of the story that we enjoy reading.

Some people when they read feel an attachment to characters and when a character they like gets screwed over they hate on the other guy. Just like in sports when someones favorite teams wins or looses they feel happy or sad even though they themselves didn't win or loose. My personal opinion is when you are reading and it illicit's any emotional response you are engrossed in that book in the best way and the author did their job well. Each time I read or watch the eclipse I feel this awe and anger or sad just because of all the things going on and the attachment I feel to all of the characters involved. Everyone I have put onto berserk has expressed this as well.

In the end yes I can look at any story in a movie, book, campfire or whatever and let it be just a story and have no feelings to it but I like when something pulls me in and I loose myself for a little while. To each their own.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Walter on February 06, 2014, 03:00:48 PM
Some people when they read feel an attachment to characters

I have already been quite clear that I do feel attached to the characters. The difference is in turning that around into a negative emotion, as if you didn't want something that drives the story to happen.

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Just like in sports when someones favorite teams wins or looses they feel happy or sad even though they themselves didn't win or loose.

Stories aren't sports.

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My personal opinion is when you are reading and it illicit's any emotional response you are engrossed in that book in the best way and the author did their job well. Each time I read or watch the eclipse I feel this awe and anger or sad just because of all the things going on and the attachment I feel to all of the characters involved. Everyone I have put onto berserk has expressed this as well.

Feeling emotion from a story does not mean that you are directing them negatively at a fictional character--which is what we are talking about. Rooting, cheering, feeling sad or down because of events in a story, these are understandable emotions and the product of good storytelling.

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In the end yes I can look at any story in a movie, book, campfire or whatever and let it be just a story and have no feelings to it but I like when something pulls me in and I loose myself for a little while. To each their own.

Now you are just misrepresenting what I said... I have feelings for Berserk. But I find it irrational to hate a fictional character when they do things in the story that negatively impact the main character. It is part of the story. It is part of why you are reading the story.

When you say you hate a character, maybe you're just poorly communicating how you're feeling. Do you just mean dislike? Because some characters obviously aren't supposed to be likable. But hatred...? What exactly do you do with that hatred? Do you wish these bad things didn't happen? That the story went a different direction? Instead of the Eclipse, did you want that alternate future where Griffith is eating Beherit soup? Do you feel compelled to write Miura and ask him why can't the story be more positive?
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: krzykoopa on February 06, 2014, 05:09:48 PM
Now you are just misrepresenting what I said... I have feelings for Berserk. But I find it irrational to hate a fictional character when they do things in the story that negatively impact the main character. It is part of the story. It is part of why you are reading the story.

When you say you hate a character, maybe you're just poorly communicating how you're feeling. Do you just mean dislike? Because some characters obviously aren't supposed to be likable. But hatred...? What exactly do you do with that hatred? Do you wish these bad things didn't happen? That the story went a different direction? Instead of the Eclipse, did you want that alternate future where Griffith is eating Beherit soup? Do you feel compelled to write Miura and ask him why can't the story be more positive?

Maybe I am poorly communicating, Even though I myself never said I hate a character I find it easy to understand what someone means when they say "I hate so and so". If I was to say I hate Corkus that doesn't mean I would change anything or write the author or wish bad things that stem from the character I hate wouldn't occur. It means I dislike that characters persona (which isn't a bad thing). As I said before this is a good thing because it means you have developed an opinion of characters in the story enough so to make a emotion based statement. If I said "oh man I love guts" would you take it that I want to marry him? Or try to materialize him to real life or that I would search for a life partner that had the qualities of Guts? No, its understood that I enjoy that character in the story I like reading about his journey etc. Now if I made a statement like "I don't know why this character was written in they add nothing to the story" that is me criticizing the author and their intent which now were not even talking about character but writers intent. In the end I don't find it to be a literal hatred when someone says they hate a character.

Side note. I am not as savvy on forums as you are so my post doesn't come out as polished. I like how you quote specifics multiple times to directly address one part at a time.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Walter on February 06, 2014, 06:40:49 PM
Now if I made a statement like "I don't know why this character was written in they add nothing to the story" that is me criticizing the author and their intent which now were not even talking about character but writers intent.

It's not something you said, but that is sort of the germ of the discussion, though:

I find it particularly irritating, especially when I it seems like said character doesn't have a good reason to hate on him so much when he pretty much started the conflict to begin with.

The only time I though Corkus had a point was when Guts first came back after leaving the hawks, other than that I never understood his animosoty toward Guts.

Which is why my first retort was that if they didn't understand his motivations and intent, then maybe they weren't paying attention to the details, and "hating" was a little strong of a word for what they felt.

Side note. I am not as savvy on forums as you are so my post doesn't come out as polished. I like how you quote specifics multiple times to directly address one part at a time.

It's not a problem. Just hit the Quote button instead of reply next time. And if you need to grab the text again when you're typing a post out, scroll down and find the post, then click Insert Quote in the upper-right.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on February 10, 2014, 05:35:45 PM
does that mean that Casca gets the same consideration? Because I notice that several Berserk fans vocally hate Casca for the way she treated Guts in the early band of the hawk days and how she acts toward him now. During the early golden age arc she was just as critical and derisive toward Guts as Corkus. But it is weird as shallow as I thought Corkus reasons for being nasty to Guts were I thought he had more justified reasons to be pissy with Guts than Casca, who just seemed to be mean with him because she felt threatened by him taking her place with Griffith

Any way to get on topic I think Walter makes some good points that I did not consider about Corkus's POV of Guts. I guess from his perspective Guts come across ungrateful and full of himself for wanting to be Griffith's equal (although likening Guts to a dumb jock is a bit much)l. I remember Corkus cussing Guts out because he thought being made guards during the nobles fox hunt was boring and he would rather be swinging a sword, I think he called Guts a mindless  butcher. I didn't understand Corkus's disgust and it just came across to me as another reason for Corkus to disdain Guts for just opening his mouth. Kind of like how Peter tells Meg to shut up anytime she makes an observation or has an opinion.  :ganishka:
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Walter on February 10, 2014, 08:22:45 PM
does that mean that Casca gets the same consideration? Because I notice that several Berserk fans vocally hate Casca for the way she treated Guts in the early band of the hawk days and how she acts toward him now.

Could you point some of these "fans" out to me...? That's not how I've seen people talk about Casca here.

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During the early golden age arc she was just as critical and derisive toward Guts as Corkus. But it is weird as shallow as I thought Corkus reasons for being nasty to Guts were I thought he had more justified reasons to be pissy with Guts than Casca, who just seemed to be mean with him because she felt threatened by him taking her place with Griffith

Like I said before, Casca and Carcus' dislike of Guts initially was somewhat similar. But Casca's was always more nuanced, and tied to her idolization of Griffith.

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although likening Guts to a dumb jock is a bit much

I was saying that from the perspective of Carcus, and I think it's a fair statement in that context. "All you know how to do is swing a sword." Guts' genuine desire to seek out his own dream looked like he was putting on airs to Carcus.

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I didn't understand Corkus's disgust and it just came across to me as another reason for Corkus to disdain Guts for just opening his mouth. Kind of like how Peter tells Meg to shut up anytime she makes an observation or has an opinion.  :ganishka:

Well, there's obviously more to it than that...
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Mammon on February 21, 2014, 06:05:29 AM
Sorry for bumping an "old" topic, but since Corkus is my favorite member of the Hawks I  had to post in. Sorry if my English is a bit awkward, I'm still learning.

I always found his relation with Guts to be very interesting, he critics Guts all the time, but Guts seems to respect his opinion and try to understand it.
Guts is physically much stronger than Corkus and could have knocked him out any time he insulted him, but he did not. He seemed to respect him.
And after the eclipse, Guts remembers him with all his friends.

For this part, I know it's just speculation and my imagination, but I'm sure that despite his threats, Corkus would have had Guts's back if he had the opportunity to save him in battle and vice-versa.

I also like the idea of Guts avenging him by killing the apostle who killed him; like how he killed the Count, who killed Pippin.
I know that Miura probably didn't plan that from the first 3 volumes, and just added them to the Eclipse to make the reader go "Ah, I recognize these tits!". Well I could be wrong, but I always though about it that way for some reason...

Also, his face reminds me of Alan Rickman in his "Harry Potter" days as "Snape". One more point for Corkus.

Cheers to all the people contributing to those awesome debates, I'm having a lot of fun reading all the threads.  :ubik:
Mammon
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Patou244 on February 21, 2014, 07:33:54 AM
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does that mean that Casca gets the same consideration? Because I notice that several Berserk fans vocally hate Casca for the way she treated Guts in the early band of the hawk days and how she acts toward him now. During the early golden age arc she was just as critical and derisive toward Guts as Corkus

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Could you point some of these "fans" out to me...? That's not how I've seen people talk about Casca here

Maybe not here, but any other place I've tread in the berserk fan community she is quite despised. It's: "Casca is a bitch, she makes Guts suffer", or "I hate Casca you know she is just going to betray Guts," and  worst of all, "Casca enjoyed getting raped by Griffith! That whore!" or something to that affect. If you are a Casca fan it is very depressing. That is one reason why I joined this particular board. You guys seem a bit more reasonable and not so hate biased.

But enough about Casca...does anyone find it ironic that if it weren't for Corcus trying to rob him, that Guts would not have been put in a position to even join the Hawks? Its all thanks to Corcus, I wonder if he was ever aware of that lol. I love the subtle hints of irony Miura throws into his character interactions. I do not know if Miura was consciously aware that he had done this or if it was intricately planned out that Corcus, the guy who had the most butt hurt over Guts (other than Casca) being in Hawks, was the one almost primarily responsible for getting put in the hawks.

And Walter, I greatly enjoyed reading your comments on Corcus's point of view on Guts. I think to many people over look Corcus's reasons for having issues with Guts as him just being a hater. I think something that needs to be considered about Corcus is that, before he was defeated by Griffith, Corcus was in a leadership position. He lead his own gang of thieves and was under no one. Sure he became an officer in Hawks, but he was still under Griffith, Guts himself even hits a raw nerve with Corcus in the bar scene about having aspirations himself.

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Guts is physically much stronger than Corkus and could have knocked him out any time he insulted him

Wasn't there a scene where Guts came close to a confrontation with Corcus, where Corcus was eager to step outside to fight him? I can't remember the specifics but I think Casca jumped in and told Corcus to back off.


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For this part, I know it's just speculation and my imagination, but I'm sure that despite his threats, Corkus would have had Guts's back if he had the opportunity to save him in battle and vice-versa.

hm, now that is something I do not know, Corcus even admitted to Guts face that he sometimes aimed his arrows at him during battle so I wonder if he would actually do that.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Mammon on February 21, 2014, 10:20:06 AM
hm, now that is something I do not know, Corcus even admitted to Guts face that he sometimes aimed his arrows at him during battle so I wonder if he would actually do that.
I never really took that statement seriously, for me it's like the "watch your back if we meet again in battle!", just Corkus being... Corkus. I don't think he would actually do that.
Well, except at the very beginning when Guts joined the Hawks...
but yeah it was a stupid statement from me, since it's just the "vibe" I'm getting from the character, and it's not backed up by anything...  my bad.  :farnese:
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on March 03, 2014, 02:49:35 PM


And Walter, I greatly enjoyed reading your comments on Corcus's point of view on Guts. I think to many people over look Corcus's reasons for having issues with Guts as him just being a hater. I think something that needs to be considered about Corcus is that, before he was defeated by Griffith, Corcus was in a leadership position. He lead his own gang of thieves and was under no one. Sure he became an officer in Hawks, but he was still under Griffith, Guts himself even hits a raw nerve with Corcus in the bar scene about having aspirations himself.

Wasn't there a scene where Guts came close to a confrontation with Corcus, where Corcus was eager to step outside to fight him? I can't remember the specifics but I think Casca jumped in and told Corcus to back off.


hm, now that is something I do not know, Corcus even admitted to Guts face that he sometimes aimed his arrows at him during battle so I wonder if he would actually do that.

I took the bit about aiming his arrows at Guts as truthful, only because I think it is something he would have done of given the chance. There was not a single thing about Guts that Corkus's liked so why wouldn't he.

And that scene where Corkus asks Guts to step out side only existed in the anime series. Corkus never suggests such a thing in the manga. Why was that scene even added in the anime, it is small but it does detract from the actual nature of Corkus's cowardice toward Guts. Corkus was scared shitless of Guts after his encounter trying to rob him, he would never have upfront challenged him even to act tough. Why did the anime do this? Just to make Corkus look less like the chicken shit he is?
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Walter on March 03, 2014, 03:00:58 PM
Why did the anime do this? Just to make Corkus look less like the chicken shit he is?

Just one of a thousand "additions" made by the anime staff that detracted from the original experience. My favorite is still in episode 1, "Things have been gloomy since that Griffith guy became king!"  :ganishka:
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Mammon on March 03, 2014, 06:30:28 PM
Just one of a thousand "additions" made by the anime staff that detracted from the original experience. My favorite is still in episode 1, "Things have been gloomy since that Griffith guy became king!"  :ganishka:

Because of that line, a couple of my friends believed (before they knew me) that the Snake Baron was Griffith, and so the anime was actually complete, just with the first episode being the last with Guts getting revenge...  :farnese:

"Gloomy"  :ganishka:
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Heavenly Maiden on March 31, 2014, 03:40:00 PM
you know I was just re-reading some of the golden age and I think I am going rethink my stance on Corkus. If nothing else Corkus was a breathe of fresh air among a lot of heroic selfless characters like Pippin Judo and Rickert. He was such a person that I would imagine a regular every day person would act in the situations the hawks found them selves in. Not brave, kind of a self serving asshole occasionally a screw up, and completely unglamorous. 

This was all characteristics that ultimately made me look down my nose at Corkus but after re-reading his scenes he is at least realistic. I liked the Miura made a character like him, similar to that prostitute in Luca's band who constantly fucked up, the one with the big banana curls on her head that Luca spanked who was involved in the orgy cult? Another character who was realistic in how self serving and unglamorous she was.

Also what is the correct spelling of Corkus? Some of you spell it carcus?
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Aazealh on March 31, 2014, 05:16:40 PM
that prostitute in Luca's band who constantly fucked up, the one with the big banana curls on her head that Luca spanked who was involved in the orgy cult?

Her name is Nina.

Also what is the correct spelling of Corkus? Some of you spell it carcus?

There's no known 100% sure spelling for his name, unfortunately. It's spelled "Carcus" in some official material and so we've taken to spelling it that way, but honestly there's no guarantee that it's the actual spelling as Miura meant it.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: RanShi on April 03, 2014, 01:31:27 PM
I used to hate Corkus too. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. I think he represents a side most human beings have, but few of us admit it, or want to be reminded of it. Corkus is "worldly". He cares about being successful in a way that is socially acceptable. He's also greedy when it comes to both wealth and women. During the ball, he's the one that enjoys the attention of the ladies, he even boasts and makes himself look more like a fierce warrior than he actually is. He cares about them becoming nobles, he seems to be the one who cares most about settling down and having everything he needs now that the band is successful. I would call him materialistic, but also logical and cynical.

None of the other major characters in the band seem to care about that as much, they're more into Griffith, what he's gonna do and following him. Judeau is still himself, and he has his skills, being kinda the ninja character of the band. Pippin is the quiet tank (gives the feel of a native american cheiftain), Rickert is the little cute happy kid, Casca is the crazy bitch with issues, Guts is the unrelenting warrior constantly seeking to prove himself in battle, and Griffith is the one with the dream. Everyone's got his role, and even after the success of the band all of the other members aren't all that exited over the fame itself, they seem more happy that they made it and Griffith finally succeeded. But Corkus really seems to be that tired old dude who just wants to get "made" in the world. He doesn't have any skills or a personality trait that really fits in with the group to improve it, he doesn't seem to have any self-fulfilling goals other than just becoming a rich ass ex-mercenary pimp noble gangster. He even led a band of mercenaries before he joined the band of the Hawk, but it all went to hell. So he used to have a dream of his own, but now he's joined Griffith and wants to ride his wave into success.

But really, Corkus is the typical "fuck bitches, get money" kinda guy. He's a fucking gangster. And he gets angry and hateful if anyone gets in his way. He's spent his entire lifetime going through failures, and THIS TIME, he follows a leader he believes in. Anyone get in the way of that dream coming true, he's gonna hate the person. Naturally. And I think Guts understands this, most of the members in the band just want to be able to live well, comfortably and be happy. So I guess that's partly why he's calm and tolerant of the criticism. And I think he understands the emotions, the hate, but he can't help being himself and he too follows his feelings. And naturally, there's gonna be clashes there. Guts probably also understands that Corkus is a "worldly" or materialistic person, therefore he doesn't understand Guts' calling for self-realization.. so he stays calm.. and he doesn't really get angry about it.

The thing about Corkus as a character that makes him easy to hate, is just that emotion, hate. He hates Guts. He really gets angry and doesn't give a fuck. He sees Guts like a nobody, like a tool to be used by Griffith, and treats him like that too. And I guess that insensitivity is what kinda makes alot of people dislike Corkus, even though he's honest. He uses the attention at the ball after the band's success, he tries to get the most he can get for himself out of every situation. And when they rescue Griffith and discover his state, he's the first one to really spread a major negative vibe. So sure, he's serious, realistic and represents some emotions that most people would feel, but most importantly of all, I think Miura made Corkus character in such a way that the reader would feel that Corkus' behavior is natural and commonly found in most people, but it's behavior that we should all avoid in order to become honourable human beings.

I've honestly seen alot of Corkus in myself as I've read Berserk, some feelings that I feel I never let out (which is a good thing), and in some instances I've felt shame when I realized I've done something similar to someone. Corkus comes from a place of a person who is overly materialistic, doesn't understand spiritual self-fulfillment and isn't particularly sensitive to feelings that go beyond money and pussy, except for his loyalty to Griffith, that he only has until he realizes Griffith can no longer provide him with the money and pussy.

So I think we all can learn alot from Corkus. He is dishonourable, but we all have that aspect within us. That aspect that acts all cool and tough with hubris, hates people who are actually geniuses, only prioritizes material things and doesn't understand much beyond that... but is really a weak human being at the core... and when disaster strikes, he rationalizes is all as a dream, and seeks consolation in the arms of a naked woman - which leads to his death. He is dishonourable, right until his last moment. I think it's good to face that aspect of ourselves, and try to kill it. And I think Guts might see some of Corkus in himself aswell, I think everyone does, but he feels sorry for him.. and really, when you see someone who has a weakness that you can relate to, saying "Well I've been exactly where you've been, I know why you think like that" is probably the worst thing you can say to them. The best thing you can do is listen, and sometimes criticism is legit, but sometimes when it's not, the best thing you can do is just to provide them with an example. Sure Guts made some mistakes here and there, but he followed his heart, and his heart extended to desires higher than money and pussy. That is honourable.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Doc on April 03, 2014, 09:46:31 PM
Corkus offering Guts outside doesn't seem that out of character, to me. He clearly wasn't afraid of Guts, getting up in his grill like he did, and making death-threats. It was surprising to me at first how Corkus was never able to provoke Guts into knocking his teeth out, because I sure as hell wanted to the first time I watched the series! It wasn't until repeated viewings and reading the manga that I came to appreciate Corkus' role in the grand scheme of things, and that for whatever reason Guts must have valued his candour.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 11, 2016, 12:04:44 AM
Revive, but I didn't feel like opening a thread so I'll add my thoughts here.

Its not that he wasn't afraid of Guts, we've seen him actually getting quite scared when Casca pointed her sword a few times at him for teasing her, but more lulled into some kind of sense of security/safety considering Guts was a member of the band, so Corkus felt he wouldn't strike at him. He's shown to be quite big mouthed/quick on the tongue but fast at changing his argument once the things got heated up, but , I think underneath he didn't despise Guts completely. In Guts' fight vs Boscone he's showing signs of panic when Guts' sword broke. Then again, that could have been simply due to shock of seeing Guts on backfoot as opposed to him winning like usually. I just like to think he somehow cared in his own, selfish and pragmatic way.

Corkus is actually one of my favorite characters and probably thid favorite character after Guts and Griffith, which says a lot for a character who's generally considered to be just an average guy" and who's role was to be a realistic-down to earth- kind of a guy with a criticising/pesimistic view on life. Not that I think he was as average as some people made him out to be, he has afterall survived for years as a mercenary which is no small feat in my book.

But, I didn't really realise how much I liked the guy until his death in the occultation ceremony. Out of all of the band of the hawk members, his death hit me the hardest due to how heart-breaking that scene was with him stumbling towards the female apostle and the last shred of sanity/light leaving him, while he latched onto her as means to get away from the cruel reality. For a guy who managed to get his dream fulfilled with the hawks, only to have it cruelly snatched from him, I think that moment brought him a measure of peace and closure he's always wanted. His fight was over and his last view seemed like god-sent ( heh ). Like Griffith once said about the young boy who wanted to become a knight, " maybe he was living his dream in death. "

I miss the guy.




Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: the immortal bob on August 03, 2016, 07:32:34 AM
Corkus is "worldly".

. I would call him materialistic, but also logical and cynical.

 He doesn't have any skills or a personality trait that really fits in with the group to improve it, he doesn't seem to have any self-fulfilling goals other than just becoming a rich ass ex-mercenary pimp noble gangster. He even led a band of mercenaries before he joined the band of the Hawk, but it all went to hell. So he used to have a dream of his own, but now he's joined Griffith and wants to ride his wave into success.

But really, Corkus is the typical "fuck bitches, get money" kinda guy. He's a fucking gangster. And he gets angry and hateful if anyone gets in his way. He's spent his entire lifetime going through failures, and THIS TIME, he follows a leader he believes in. Anyone get in the way of that dream coming true, he's gonna hate the person. Naturally. And I think Guts understands this, most of the members in the band just want to be able to live well, comfortably and be happy. So I guess that's partly why he's calm and tolerant of the criticism. And I think he understands the emotions, the hate, but he can't help being himself and he too follows his feelings. And naturally, there's gonna be clashes there. Guts probably also understands that Corkus is a "worldly" or materialistic person, therefore he doesn't understand Guts' calling for self-realization.. so he stays calm.. and he doesn't really get angry about it.

The thing about Corkus as a character that makes him easy to hate, is just that emotion, hate. He hates Guts. He really gets angry and doesn't give a fuck. He sees Guts like a nobody, like a tool to be used by Griffith, and treats him like that too. And I guess that insensitivity is what kinda makes alot of people dislike Corkus, even though he's honest. He uses the attention at the ball after the band's success, he tries to get the most he can get for himself out of every situation. And when they rescue Griffith and discover his state, he's the first one to really spread a major negative vibe. So sure, he's serious, realistic and represents some emotions that most people would feel, but most importantly of all, I think Miura made Corkus character in such a way that the reader would feel that Corkus' behavior is natural and commonly found in most people, but it's behavior that we should all avoid in order to become honourable human beings.

I've honestly seen alot of Corkus in myself as I've read Berserk, some feelings that I feel I never let out (which is a good thing), and in some instances I've felt shame when I realized I've done something similar to someone. Corkus comes from a place of a person who is overly materialistic, doesn't understand spiritual self-fulfillment and isn't particularly sensitive to feelings that go beyond money and pussy, except for his loyalty to Griffith, that he only has until he realizes Griffith can no longer provide him with the money and pussy.

So I think we all can learn alot from Corkus. He is dishonourable, but we all have that aspect within us. That aspect that acts all cool and tough with hubris, hates people who are actually geniuses, only prioritizes material things and doesn't understand much beyond that... but is really a weak human being at the core... and when disaster strikes, he rationalizes is all as a dream, and seeks consolation in the arms of a naked woman - which leads to his death. He is dishonourable, right until his last moment. I think it's good to face that aspect of ourselves, and try to kill it. And I think Guts might see some of Corkus in himself aswell, I think everyone does, but he feels sorry for him.. and really, when you see someone who has a weakness that you can relate to, saying "Well I've been exactly where you've been, I know why you think like that" is probably the worst thing you can say to them. The best thing you can do is listen, and sometimes criticism is legit, but sometimes when it's not, the best thing you can do is just to provide them with an example. Sure Guts made some mistakes here and there, but he followed his heart, and his heart extended to desires higher than money and pussy. That is honourable.

all this can be summed up as Corcus is practical.

Spritual self fufillment never takes it's place as the actual cause for the disaters in berserk.  Corcus is more of a veteran, he has seen the wheel.  That wheel is the world.

This time, this season, he's getting his harvest.  Does that sound mean yes.  But mean in the same way of an old farmer, and older co worker.

Corcus tells Guts he is nothing, but it seems to be in a way that is semi tolerable.  In the way that Corcus semi tolerates his existence. 

Because he lives by the reality of don't screw it up, because of this he doesn't seem like someone you can learn from, because he doesn't say there is much greatness to what they do.  But the reality he wanted was for the rest of the band of the hawk as well.

If you look at it practically he is saying to Guts, "you don't have to kill anymore, you don't have to risk, your life, you don't have to be on the bottom."  Because of this he brings up social class, something Guts doesn't abide by much at all.

Judeau is theatrical, magical, and cagey, but he never speaks to guts about what could go wrong, when guts is already experiencing doubt.

Corcus on the other hand has lived by that doubt.  In reality the band of the hawk probably would have gone on fighting battles with the kusharn now that the war with tudor had been won.   But Corcus is focused on retirement basically, so he relates to a real world anxiety we all feel.  saving the little we have, because our repeated viewings of the less optimistic outcomes of practical enterprises in existing in life.

Also he was incredibly good to rickert, and protective of Griffith.   His treatment of Guts is that of the new guy,  so he is a to me an easily dislikable character if you have ever been that new guy, but you also notice he doesn't want Guts to leave either once he is accepted.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Sweet Prince on August 08, 2016, 05:17:09 PM
Interesting thread. Corkus strikes me as a pretty realistic character with believable motives. He is, I think, essentially a bumpkin who dreams of wealth, status and glory. I find that a lot of what he says and does during the Golden Age Arc helps to prevent the tone of the story, in certain moments, from slipping into... well, schmaltz (for lack of a better word). His tendency to put a pin in any potential melodrama by making some kind of cynical remark, as well as his frosty yet often ambiguous relationship with Guts, always kind of intrigued me.

Regarding Guts' lack of hostility in response to Corkus' criticisms... I've always put that down to Guts' indifference towards Corkus' opinion. Guts was on the receiving end of mockery and scorn for pretty much his whole life, after all. I just assumed the effect of Corkus telling Guts he's an A-hole would be like "water off a duck's back" to Guts. However, I think the idea that Guts respects Corkus as his comrade and silently acknowledges the value of his criticism makes much more sense, especially given what we know of Guts as a perceptive and introspective guy. Again, interesting thread!  :ubik:
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Vixen Comics on September 17, 2016, 04:26:57 AM
I was always amazed by Corkus and Guts. I would almost say that Guts rather liked Corkus. I think that deep down Guts valued Corkus's opinions and maybe even agreed with them a little. Corks was so hostile with Guts I was shocked he never got punched in the face, but guts just listened to him. One bit that stood out to me was when Corkus went off on Guts and basically called him a dumb jock when Guts was complaining about guarding the nobles fox hunt. I think this scene is the closest I have ever seen Guts get even remotely irked at Corkus tearing into him. But I also took it that he was mostly irked by being told he did not appreciate the honor he was being given rather than holding it against Corkus. Guts got more riled over Casca's criticism of him which surprised me because their criticism seemed similar a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Guts and Corkus's relationship/interactions
Post by: Uriel on September 18, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
I posted something about Corkus in 2004. (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2900.msg57652#msg57652) It was a repost of an older post I had made on another forum, so this is probably older than 12 years. Yikes.

It's awfully written, with a myriad spelling and grammatical errors, but I still feel the same about some things. Corkus was one of the only ones grounded in reality. I still find his calling Guts out on his lofty dream to be very refreshing. As I get older, the more I appreciate and enjoy Corkus' perspective.

Thanks for bringing rekindling this thred! It was fun reading over Wally's fervent defense of Corkus too.