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Berserk => Current Episodes => Topic started by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 11:18:33 AM

Title: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 11:18:33 AM
Title: Soaring escape

Pretty busy episode, as expected. Rakshas was planning to use Erika to put out the small fire remaining on this body, as we'd guessed. Daiba intervenes, using his main skill: animal charming. Who could have guessed he kept so many critters around! When I saw the first shot of the first snake, I almost believed for a split-second that he'd found and tamed another Kundalini somehow. Anyway, the snakes and rats distract Rakshas while Daiba helps the group escape (overcoming initial suspicion from the Bakiraka as he asks them to let him join). The Garuda plays a key role there, as expected, and the unknown of how they could all be carried away is answered in the simplest manner: there is not one, but three of them.

As Falconia residents start wondering what's happening, Daiba throws Luka a bag of diamonds to repay her for her kindness and they fly off... And Rakshas follows them in the air! Now don't go telling me that guy isn't versatile. Rickert takes care of it with a goddamn rocket launcher though :ganishka:, putting an end to the pursuit. As Rickert and the others fly off, he turns back at a lone figure watching them leave: Griffith. A shot reminiscent of when Guts left Vritannis for Elfhelm.

Of note: Griffith is himself despite the full moon, which adds to the mystery of the Moonlight Boy.


It's obvious enough, but Young Animal pretty much confirms we will switch to Guts' side (in their words: "there will be a new development") in the next episode, as I had predicted. Before anyone asks, it will be published on November 27.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Gobolatula on October 20, 2015, 11:33:18 AM
Daiba kicks so much ass. What a fantastic episode, good Lord. It was a really stylish episode, too! I noticed a lot of thicker lines, especially on the close-ups of Daiba.

What's interesting to me is that Griffith was standing outside watching. Was that a coincidence or was he making sure that Rakshas was getting the job done?
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 11:40:53 AM
What's interesting to me is that Griffith was standing outside watching. Was that a coincidence or was he making sure that Rakshas was getting the job done?

That's the question now, isn't it? Especially since his face (and by extension his expression) isn't shown. I think it could still go either way: him having ordered Rakshas to do it, or just bearing witness to the situation. Either way, he chose not to get involved directly.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Skeleton on October 20, 2015, 12:02:56 PM
At this rate, by the time Guts reconnects with Rickert he'll have created an atomic bomb and a jet to deliver it.  :ganishka:

ETA:  By the way, thank you so much for posting the link and the summary of it, Aaz!  I appreciate it so much. :)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 12:14:26 PM
At this rate, by the time Guts reconnects with Rickert he'll have created an atomic bomb and a jet to deliver it.  :ganishka:

Lol yeah, to be honest I feel like it's pushing it a bit, even considering Rickert's talent. Although I guess he's intimately familiar with crossbows and projectile flight mechanics as well as with gunpowder, so... combining the two makes sense. Plus, he had already designed a shell-based system for Guts' cannon, and that's miles ahead of the simple cannonballs everyone else uses. Now I'm just excited to see what he comes up with next! A gun?!

ETA:  By the way, thank you so much for posting the link and the summary of it, Aaz!  I appreciate it so much. :)

You're welcome!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Salem on October 20, 2015, 12:20:28 PM
 :isidro:  I'm so excited right now.  I just....thanks Aaz.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Lithrael on October 20, 2015, 01:43:00 PM
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/12c500d408f1fb712f1c822a9409ef15/tumblr_nwiwq3l4CO1sr2kmoo1_250.gif)

I'm dyin'  :troll:

What a fantastic episode!!!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Admiral_Yang_Wen-li on October 20, 2015, 01:53:55 PM
Anybody have any ideas why Luka didn't join them? Rakshas knows she was with Rickert and the others who escaped. Wouldn't she be in danger now?
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: IncantatioN on October 20, 2015, 01:55:20 PM
Whoa, excellent detail and angles aside, there's so much amazing stuff that happens! Thanks for the link and summary Aaz.

That panel of Rakshas flying makes him look like part eel or fish or something reminiscent with fins. Narrow escape, it looked like Rakshas caught up with up in the air them pretty quick. Love the right panel with him falling down, in flames. Falconia's high outer walls look super ominous, half dark.

Think Luka and crew will take the money and leave the city? Although she's been hiding herself, think she's in danger or Rakshas noticed her around the action to question her later on?

Before anyone asks, it will be published on November 27.

Was gonna ask, thanks for that!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Squiddot on October 20, 2015, 02:00:21 PM
Gotta hand it to Miura, everyone had some idea of what we would be seeing in this episode, but he pulled it off in a way I didn’t see anybody predict that was still a perfectly logical sequence, though a reveal of multiple garudas (garudae?) isn’t something you could guess easily.

I don’t have much to say about the rocket launcher other than I feel it works with the universe we’ve been shown well enough. If anyone could do it, it's Rickert and all he really needed to do at this point is cram a few of his inventions together. Not to mention Falconia is a bastion of cutting edge tech so it could be he had some good framework to work with. Though it would be a scary revelation if Falconia was mass producing weapons like that already.

It made for a really cool end to our Falconia escapades, but the way it just sought of moved on from Rakshas after he couldn't pursue anymore rather than really show us the damage makes it seem like he’ll be back after all. Unless there’s a scene or two more It seems like you win this round Aaz. :rakshas:

Anybody else struck by just how fantastical that final scene is? Rickert and his companions flying off into the moonlit sky on the backs of three giant bird-bats framed by titanic ethereal branches. It’s like Guts’ rescue at the hands of the merrow taken to a whole other level. There's this cute little thing developing that for all the evil that the world transformation unleashed on the world, the heroes have been able to control or befriend a least a part of it that's helped them in ways nothing else could have done before.

Wonder what Luca means to do with all those diamonds. I'm sure the context for that is addressed in the dialogue but it doesn't seem like leaving Falconia was ever a monetary issue. Seems very elaborate for repairs as well, maybe just a nice token of thanks for looking after him. 
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 02:23:44 PM
Anybody have any ideas why Luka didn't join them? Rakshas knows she was with Rickert and the others who escaped. Wouldn't she be in danger now?

She never planned to join them, and did not have the opportunity. It's also not sure Rakshas really paid attention to her and the girls, nor whether he cares or not. Either way, it'll be interesting to see what their life in Falconia is like from now on.

Think Luka and crew will take the money and leave the city?

To go where? And how? They'll have to make do with Falconia. However it will given them some flexibility within the city, allowing them to infiltrate the higher classes or to put potentially nosy characters off their trail.

Gotta hand it to Miura, everyone had some idea of what we would be seeing in this episode, but he pulled it off in a way I didn’t see anybody predict that was still a perfectly logical sequence, though a reveal of multiple garudas (garudae?) isn’t something you could guess easily.

Actually, not to brag but I'd say Walter and I predicted it pretty damn accurately given the circumstances, from the number of episodes involved to how the events would play out (Daiba saving the day, the airborne escape with Garuda...).

the way it just sought of moved on from Rakshas after he couldn't pursue anymore rather than really show us the damage makes it seem like he’ll be back after all. Unless there’s a scene or two more It seems like you win this round Aaz. :rakshas:

Yeah he'll be back for sure, that wasn't nearly as damaging enough to take him out. Just managed to stop the pursuit at the last moment. I look forward to the next time we see him in battle. And yeah I was right (of course), but I'll magnanimously dispense with rubbing it in your face. :casca:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Squiddot on October 20, 2015, 02:30:42 PM
Actually, not to brag but I'd say Walter and I predicted it pretty damn accurately given the circumstances, from the number of episodes involved to how the events would play out (Daiba saving the day, the airborne escape with Garuda...).

Oh yeah, everyone knew that would go down. the thing I meant was the use of animal charming to distract Rakshas with snakes and rats, which we had gotten a big hint of with his handling of the horses.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 02:47:19 PM
Oh yeah, everyone knew that would go down.

Haha come on, now you're handing me the stick to beat you with! :ganishka:

Anyway, the full moon in these episodes makes me wonder whether the Moonlight Boy will make an appearance when we switch to Guts' side.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Squiddot on October 20, 2015, 03:00:51 PM
Anyway, the full moon in these episodes makes me wonder whether the Moonlight Boy will make an appearance when we switch to Guts' side.

It also makes me wonder about the passage of time, It was a full moon the last time we saw Guts on-board the ship so either the perspective jump knocked us back a few days that we've just caught up to again or the poor old crew got ferried by merrow for at least another whole month.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Rhombaad on October 20, 2015, 03:13:02 PM
I'm loving this monthly schedule. Thanks for posting the episode and summary, Aazealh!

I love Erika's expression when she sees the Garuda for the first time.

(http://i.imgur.com/AphurB5.png)

I guess my theory about Griffith turning into the Moonlight Boy like some kind of a werewolf is shot, given that he's standing right in front of the full moon at the end of the episode.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: jackson_hurley on October 20, 2015, 03:32:14 PM
I guess my theory about Griffith turning into the Moonlight Boy like some kind of a werewolf is shot, given that he's standing right in front of the full moon at the end of the episode.

Maybe that's just it, he's just staring in the distance, becausehe's not there, he's far far away, as a boy. And everytime time the full moon appears, Griffith just says : " I'm going for a walk."  :ganishka:

Ok joke aside, very very nice episode. Merci beaucoup Aaz!

I said last episode :" who would have thought we'd see a flamethrower in Berserk?" Now let me rephrase that with :" Who would have thought. We'd see a flame thrower AND a fucking rocket launcher in Berserk?"

This episode just made my week! Now I'll winter come slowly while I wait for November!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Johnny Apples on October 20, 2015, 03:53:01 PM
I wonder, though, is Rakshas actually capable of flight? Or is he using his body strength to propel himself into the air?  :rakshas:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Kaladin on October 20, 2015, 04:24:16 PM
such a great episode! great Daiba!!! great finisher by Rickert. rakshas is huge! :rakshas:, that page of him chasing them was great. I'm also glad miura showed the civilians of falconia reacting to the ruckus outside. looking like we won't get griffith's crowning anytime soon either. looking forward to the next episode!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: ApostleBob on October 20, 2015, 05:02:32 PM
Amazing episode.  Some unexpected help from Daiba using snakes and Rats.  And three Garuda!  The guys been busy breeding them I guess. 

I wonder if Rakshas is down for the count?  Probably not but it does appear that his head was seperated from his body by that explosion.  But then again he uses that mask as a decoy all the time now. 

Anyone else feel like the art has taken a shift here?  Bolder lines with a bit more of a cartoony look, especially on Daiba and the Garuda? I kind of like it, it looks cleaner.  Almost reminiscent of the Lost Children art style.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 05:07:51 PM
It also makes me wonder about the passage of time, It was a full moon the last time we saw Guts on-board the ship so either the perspective jump knocked us back a few days that we've just caught up to again or the poor old crew got ferried by merrow for at least another whole month.

I think it's pretty clear that time will have elapsed since the last time we saw Guts. It wouldn't make sense for the solitary island to have been so close to Skellig, and I expect them to be arriving there. And they're not being ferried by merrows, just guided/accompanied.

I guess my theory about Griffith turning into the Moonlight Boy like some kind of a werewolf is shot, given that he's standing right in front of the full moon at the end of the episode.

Indeed, we at least have got some clarification (however little that is) in that regard. Still doesn't help us figure out how it works though.

I wonder, though, is Rakshas actually capable of flight? Or is he using his body strength to propel himself into the air?  :rakshas:

He can fly. The flaps on his body act like little wings.

I wonder if Rakshas is down for the count?  Probably not but it does appear that his head was seperated from his body by that explosion.  But then again he uses that mask as a decoy all the time now.

You can be 100% sure he isn't. It's also not clear to me whether he was actually split in half or if it's just an effect of the fire and he's still attached. Either way, no major character dies like that, ever.

Anyone else feel like the art has taken a shift here?  Bolder lines with a bit more of a cartoony look, especially on Daiba and the Garuda? I kind of like it, it looks cleaner.  Almost reminiscent of the Lost Children art style.

Daiba's close-up shots are drawn with bolder lines specifically, but that's clearly an artistic choice for his character. Other than that it looks the same as usual to me. Keep in mind the print and scan quality also play a big role in how it looks.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 20, 2015, 05:20:24 PM
 :daiba: :daiba: :daiba: :daiba: :daiba: :daiba: :daiba: :daiba: :daiba: :daiba:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: DarkAdin on October 20, 2015, 05:27:37 PM
That was fantastic. Never thought that the bold Rakshas would ever get out of a fight in that state. And that bazooka? Jesus. As I too expected, Daiba showed up. It was his golden time. And also the only ticket out of the city after all the mess. Just wait until Locus finds out.  :rakshas:
But I get even more hyped after knowing by our good ol' YA that we're going to switch to Guts' side next month, because IT'S BEEN A LOT.  :judo:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: ApostleBob on October 20, 2015, 05:29:05 PM
Aaz called it with the insect like aspects of Rakshas.  Those claws are definitely insectoid and remind me of a Mantis. 

It's strange how little Rakshas fought or did once transformed. Once the snakes arrived he pretty much stops all action.  Aaz is there something said here that explains this more? Is he afraid of snakes or something like this?

Also as we leave Falconia, I think it's interesting that the two Apostle captains we didn't see are the same two who were sent to exterminate Flora.  Might they be on similar tasks to solidify Griffith's rule? Zodd and Grunbeld certainly are capable enough.  But to be honest I'd be really surprised if we saw them in Skellig. It would feel to similar to what's happened before and I think our heroes need a break and an info dump.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 05:34:21 PM
It's strange how little Rakshas fought or did once transformed. Once the snakes arrived he pretty much stops all action.  Aaz is there something said here that explains this more? Is he afraid of snakes or something like this?

They just restrained his movements by coiling around his body and various appendages (while the rats nibbled at it I guess), and did so long enough that the group could escape. But keep in mind it's all supposed to be happening very quickly, so in truth it didn't delay him all that much.

Also as we leave Falconia, I think it's interesting that the two Apostle captains we didn't see are the same two who were sent to exterminate Flora.  Might they be on similar tasks to solidify Griffith's rule? Zodd and Grunbeld certainly are capable enough.  But to be honest I'd be really surprised if we saw them in Skellig. It would feel to similar to what's happened before and I think our heroes need a break and an info dump.

I did mention that Zodd would be on a mission against Elfhelm a while back for a joke. After all, he can fly and isn't afraid to bite more than he can chew. But no, I don't think it's happening. I'm sure he's up to something however, with or without Grunbeld, and we'll find out about it soon enough. I like the idea of them being out there in the wilderness, butchering astral creatures. I mean I can't be the only one who wants to see Grunbeld take on a real dragon, can I?
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: ApostleBob on October 20, 2015, 05:38:33 PM
I like the idea of them being out there in the wilderness, butchering astral creatures. I mean I can't be the only one who wants to see Grunbeld take on a real dragon, can I?

That would be an amazing way to come back from Elfhelm.  Cut to Grunbeld taking down a massive dragon.  Maybe Zodd could smack down a Minotaur.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: jackson_hurley on October 20, 2015, 05:53:30 PM
I forgot to mention it in my last post but, wow Rakshas is one dreadfull and scary apostle. I'm trying to imagine Guts fighting him. In some way, I think I'd like to see  Silat and the tapasa taking him down, if there's some final battle somehow towards the end.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 06:03:25 PM
Maybe Zodd could smack down a Minotaur.

That's too weak for him. A Chimera-like creature, maybe? That'd be more like it. :zodd:

I forgot to mention it in my last post but, wow Rakshas is one dreadfull and scary apostle. I'm trying to imagine Guts fighting him. In some way, I think I'd like to see  Silat and the tapasa taking him down, if there's some final battle somehow towards the end.

Yep, that would be nice.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: N7Paladin on October 20, 2015, 06:08:54 PM
 :isidro: Great episode. The snakes and rats used by Daiba as a distraction were great, I expected them to fly off on Garuda, but not three of them. I thought the rocket launcher was a bit out there, but it was still pretty cool.

Rakshas probably has a new hatred for fire..... and might be my favorite apostle at this point.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Judo on October 20, 2015, 07:08:31 PM
Wow. Rakshas never ceases to creep the hell out of me... his changeability is truly frightening. Though I have to admit that I still kinda miss the old mask.
Great job as always, Miura-sama!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 20, 2015, 07:25:32 PM
To elaborate a bit on the summary, Rakshas comments that he's uncomfortable because the fire isn't completely out as he's about to rip Erika open, clearly intending to use her blood to finish the job. After saving her, Daiba says that he's paid off his debt (referring to the leg brace he was given). When he asks Silat whether he can join them, Daiba says that they were both remnants, square pegs that don't fit in round holes, outsiders who have no place in this new world. Silat asks Rickert, his "employer", what his decision is. Rickert tells Silat that he has no reason to turn Daiba down.

Daiba comments, as the snakes constrain Rakshas, that to them he's just a rag, and that it's pointless to fight him full on. He also mentions that since the Garuda have been confined for so long, they're eager to fly off at full speed. He then adds that as long as he's with the group, the Garuda won't try to eat them. Something I only mention in case people have missed it, but Erika's the one who stops to go get the rocket launcher from the wagon. Clever girl. Anyway, Daiba expects them to be out of danger once they take off, and is surprised to see that "the crumpled rug can fly". They can't outrun Rakshas because they're heavily loaded. Luka's final words is wishing them well.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: ApostleBob on October 20, 2015, 08:24:24 PM
Thanks for the extra detail Aaz!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: MrFlibble on October 20, 2015, 11:12:08 PM
My only gripe with this episode is the way Rakshas got out, one moment he's immobilized by rats and snakes, the next he's snake free and in pursuit like nothing happened. It would have helped to have a scene where he shook the snakes off or something. However it is exciting to see an apostle with a smorgasbord of different forms, makes me wonder if the apostle mains have any abilities we haven't seen yet.  :zodd:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Tripas on October 21, 2015, 01:05:24 AM
Great episode! But I've to say that for me it isn't just at the level of the previous ones. It was kinda "anticlimatic", mainly because the conclusion of this conflict was already predicted, almost step by step. Anyway, Rakshas has demonstrated to be a freaking badass (if someone didn't think that yet) and the rocket launcher... I've no words for it. Based Rickert.

On the other hand, with this episode Miura has opened a new door in terms of Griffith's relationship with the Child. Can the Child manifest by himself? Maybe the fullmoon works as a catalyst for the "switches" at specific times? Or the Griffith we see in this episode is actually in catatonic state...
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Delta Phi on October 21, 2015, 01:37:50 AM
I got a kick out of the bazooka, but am not too surprised Rickert came up with something like that. He just keeps impressing me with his inventions. But I think the biggest surprises were Griffith standing in front of a full moon, and the [not one, not two, but] three Garuda!

I'm really curious about the Moonlight Boy and Griffith's connection. I can't look at that grassy knoll and not see Zodd. Perhaps the boy is some kind of (physical?) astral projection and maybe Griffith is indeed catatonic on that balcony... :???:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Walter on October 21, 2015, 01:38:54 AM
The downside of predicting almost every beat of this encounter is that I have almost nothing to add to this thread  :sad:

Am I really the first to say RICKERT LAUNCHER! ?

I don't think seeing Griffith next to a full moon changes anything about our understanding of the relationship between the child, him, and the moon. The power of the full moon likely gives the boy the chance to seize control, not necessarily that it happens each and every time, for exactly the duration of the full moon. The change could happen later, or not at all. The boy has always appeared when his parents were in a dire situation. Lately that involves Guts and the effects of the armor. Perhaps he doesn't need saving right now. So it's not a visitation weekend this time.

That being said, it does raise the question of why muddle the issue by showing a full moon at all? I don't have an answer for that, but this episode's ending didnt change anything for me.

I did however wonder if Griffith ever left his perch from when we last saw him  :ganishka:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Theozilla on October 21, 2015, 02:29:02 AM
The downside of predicting almost every beat of this encounter is that I have almost nothing to add to this thread  :sad:

Am I really the first to say RICKERT LAUNCHER! ?

I don't think seeing Griffith next to a full moon changes anything about our understanding of the relationship between the child, him, and the moon. The power of the full moon likely gives the boy the chance to seize control, not necessarily that it happens each and every time, for exactly the duration of the full moon. The change could happen later, or not at all. The boy has always appeared when his parents were in a dire situation. Lately that involves Guts and the effects of the armor. Perhaps he doesn't need saving right now. So it's not a visitation weekend this time.

That being said, it does raise the question of why muddle the issue by showing a full moon at all? I don't have an answer for that, but this episode's ending didn't change anything for me.

I did however wonder if Griffith ever left his perch from when we last saw him  :ganishka:

I agree that this episode doesn't completely negate the possibility that the Moonlight Boy takes control of/transforms Griffith's physical vessel during full moons, like you stated in your reasoning.
But it also raises the possibility that maybe the nature of their relationship is slightly different from what readers originally speculated, maybe it is similar to a fission/defusion process, like maybe what occurs is that Moonlight Boy emerges/splits off from Griffith's physical vessel instead?
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Walter on October 21, 2015, 04:58:19 AM
, maybe it is similar to a fission/defusion process, like maybe what occurs is that Moonlight Boy emerges/splits off from Griffith's physical vessel instead?

You mean like an astral projection? That actually complicates things. The boy has form and weight. Also, he astrally projects himself to rescue Guts from the sea god. Furthermore if he were a projection, Zodd wouldn't need to be around the rocky cliffs outside Vritannis (the boy also leaves during that time by climbing up a rocky cliff), presumably ferrying him back and forth, before the World Spiral Tree provided a more efficient form of travel. If you're proposing he creates an entirely new body every full moon, well, what allegiance would Zodd have to him?

I'm not saying we know 100% how this all works, but I've yet to encounter a more convincing alternative, given all the wrinkles present.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 21, 2015, 05:12:09 AM
The downside of predicting almost every beat of this encounter is that I have almost nothing to add to this thread  :sad:

Yeah, even though this episode still had some awesome surprises, basically Daiba and Rakshas showing they cany do whatever they want, including flying, it's like we talked about it already.

Am I really the first to say RICKERT LAUNCHER! ?

Bravo! :ubik:

I don't think seeing Griffith next to a full moon changes anything about our understanding of the relationship between the child, him, and the moon.
That being said, it does raise the question of why muddle the issue by showing a full moon at all? I don't have an answer for that, but this episode's ending didnt change anything for me.

On the other hand, I got this mysterious PM on how the ending may change things as far as some of our moonlight boy dogma goes. EXCLUSIVE:

Quote from: kintaro miura
sup griff
hey nice predictions on this chapt-oops lol dont ban me-episode you guys. it was all pretty obvious foreshadowing but guess I cant fool you! :miura: btdubbs let me hear that wereboy theory again...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bINyQWt4Db4

 :iva:

cheers loser

kintaro(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/mkwikia/images/c/c0/Kintaro.gif/revision/latest?cb=20110126200555)

That aside, while this scenario isn't mutually exclusive with the broader ideas connecting Griffith and the boy as you point out (and we've discussed in detail before), it's a reminder there's still a lot more we don't know about the boy than we actually do, especially concerning his nature and how that plays into his probable relation to Griffith and his vessel. Anyway, it's strange to say this minor revelation is mysterious or muddling when the takeaway should be we quite clearly know more now than we thought we did before.

I did however wonder if Griffith ever left his perch from when we last saw him  :ganishka:

He just stands there waiting to make eye contact with anyone that leaves. So needy. :griffnotevil:

That actually complicates things. The boy isn't an astral projection. He has form and weight. Also, he astrally projects himself to rescue Guts from the sea god. Furthermore if he were a projection, Zodd wouldn't need to be around the rocky cliffs outside Vritannis (the boy also leaves during that time by climbing up a rocky cliff), presumably ferrying him back and forth, before the World Spiral Tree provided a more efficient form of travel.

I'm not saying we know 100% how this all works, but I've yet to encounter a more contvincing alternative, given all the wrinkles present.

So, 99.9%? :badbone: It's still a lot of suppositions based on a lack of information, which isn't much for evidence. For all we know, the boy can physically project himself based off Griffith's power, or something else even (he certainly seemed to appear/disappear at will, and don't forget his unique astral presence). So, again, we should probably let this remind us to still keep our minds open to all the possibilities (like him being tied more to Griffith's spiritual power than his body, and so perhaps the struggle isn't a "seizing control" but the threat of separation and/or independence, which could also explain Zodd trailing the kid... allegedly :troll:). I mean, if you want to talk complications, if Zodd, Griffith's personal bodyguard, is there at the beach and his master's physical vessel is threatened (practically or not), would he not immediately join the fray on a matter of principle? It's not like he cares about spoilers for Guts. :zodd: Maybe no, but it's one of those complicating questions we're not asking too hard about.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 21, 2015, 05:53:53 AM
I agree that this episode doesn't completely negate the possibility that the Moonlight Boy takes control of/transforms Griffith's physical vessel during full moons, like you stated in your reasoning.
But it also raises the possibility that maybe the nature of their relationship is slightly different from what readers originally speculated, maybe it is similar to a fission/defusion process, like maybe what occurs is that Moonlight Boy emerges/splits off from Griffith's physical vessel instead?

The actual way in which the boy manifests in regard to Griffith has always been the biggest unknown, and the part we have least speculated about aside from the idea he might just transform. There are numerous ways in which it might occur that would work with the information we already have.

For all we know, the boy can physically project himself based off Griffith's power, or something else even (he certainly seemed to appear/disappear at will, and don't forget his unique astral presence).

Well we do know he needs to travel to and from the locations he appears at.

So, again, we should probably let this remind us to still keep our minds open to all the possibilities (like him being tied more to Griffith's spiritual power than his body, and so perhaps the struggle isn't a "seizing control" but the threat of separation and/or independence, which could also explain Zodd trailing the kid... allegedly :troll:).

It's not like we ever ruled out the idea that the boy could manifest separately from Griffith, so picturing it this way seems unfair and unwarranted to me. The transformation is just the preferred hypothesis for a number of reasons that have held true since they were first exposed in 2006. That includes the fact Zodd was overlooking their first meeting on the beach. That aside, the mental aspect of this for Griffith should not be underestimated. It is still possible that Griffith has to consciously allow the change (relinquishing control), or that he fights it everytime until it overwhelms him, and so on.

I mean, are we sure he was on that balcony because of Rakshas and Rickert? Or was it because it's the full moon and he's preparing himself, and only saw their escape as a coincidence? Going further, maybe the next episode will open with the boy manifesting himself, and then travelling to meet his parents through the World Spiral Tree's branches. I know that's far out, but you've got to admit it'd be cool to see.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 21, 2015, 08:09:19 AM
The actual way in which the boy manifests in regard to Griffith has always been the biggest unknown, and the part we have least speculated about aside from the idea he might just transform. There are numerous ways in which it might occur that would work with the information we already have.

Now we're talkin'. :guts:

Well we do know he needs to travel to and from the locations he appears at.

Yeah, but we know as much about the nature of that travel as we do the nature of the boy's manifestation.

It's not like we ever ruled out the idea that the boy could manifest separately from Griffith, so picturing it this way seems unfair and unwarranted to me. The transformation is just the preferred hypothesis for a number of reasons that have held true since they were first exposed in 2006. That includes the fact Zodd was overlooking their first meeting on the beach. That aside, the mental aspect of this for Griffith should not be underestimated. It is still possible that Griffith has to consciously allow the change (relinquishing control), or that he fights it everytime until it overwhelms him, and so on.

See, I feel like the second half of this quote betrays the first. It's all good theory, but I still feel like it's assuming so much about the nature of the boy vis-à-vis Griffith that, though not ruling out alternatives, it's rather stifling. It's taking too much we don't know for granted. Perhaps I'm being too conservative, but there's still so much we don't know, that's never even been addressed, some of it is almost like fanfiction on some level rather than a solid default or prospective interpretation.

I mean, are we sure he was on that balcony because of Rakshas and Rickert? Or was it because it's the full moon and he's preparing himself, and only saw their escape as a coincidence? Going further, maybe the next episode will open with the boy manifesting himself, and then travelling to meet his parents through the World Spiral Tree's branches. I know that's far out, but you've got to admit it'd be cool to see.

For sure, but it's also what I'm getting at above, as you say yourself it's far out, and I just think a lot of what we're assuming, or at least casually saying, about the boy is more out on a spiritual tree limb than we always acknowledge. It could all be true of course, and makes a ton of sense and connects a lot of dots, but it could also easily be wrong. Oh, who am I kidding? Here's the REAL reason we don't see Griffith's face at the end of this episode:

(http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/griffboy.jpg)
Episode 342 revealed!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 21, 2015, 08:32:52 AM
Yeah, but we know as much about the nature of that travel as we do the nature of the boy's manifestation.

Well we did see him travel through the tree in his night gown. We don't have the details but at least we know he doesn't appear/disappear out of thin air... even though he can somehow move far up in the sky without being spotted.

See, I feel like the second half of this quote betrays the first. It's all good theory, but I still feel like it's assuming so much about the nature of the boy vis-à-vis Griffith that, though not ruling out alternatives, it's rather stifling. It's taking too much we don't know for granted. Perhaps I'm being too conservative, but there's still so much we don't know, that's never even been addressed, some of it is almost like fanfiction on some level rather than a solid default or prospective interpretation.

That's why it is still just a theory and not a collection of hard facts. :slan: But while some of the details are still unknown, I'm honestly very confident about the core of it. It's been repeatedly confirmed by the developments we've seen over the years.

(http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/griffboy.jpg)
Episode 342 revealed!

:ganishka: You dared to go where I didn't!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 21, 2015, 02:56:25 PM
Well we did see him travel through the tree in his night gown. We don't have the details but at least we know he doesn't appear/disappear out of thin air... even though he can somehow move far up in the sky without being spotted.

Yeah, but it's not like we understand the nature of any of that; does he float up to the branches like an invisible elevator or Mary Poppins? Is that the same as his more localized, and actually more mysterious, comings and goings, such as the first time we see him before the tree and he first appears and subsequently disappears? Can he just move really fast? Teleport? Become invisible? Become nothing? Even Schierke can't keep track of the little squirt.

That's why it is still just a theory and not a collection of hard facts. :slan: But while some of the details are still unknown, I'm honestly very confident about the core of it. It's been repeatedly confirmed by the developments we've seen over the years.

Until now... BUM BUM BUM! :carcus:

Since we know so few details as you say, it's interesting to speculate how Fantasia might have changed things behind the scenes (though I'm sure we've covered it all before). Obviously, the distinction between the physical and astral world was such before that Femto required a physical vessel to cross over. Logically, the boy, assuming he's some manifestation of Guts/Casca's child's spirit, wouldn't transcend that law and would also require a/the vessel ("I'm taking the car tonight."). That could have very well changed with the new world, much as his mode of transportation.

An interesting aside is that Guts almost intrinsically knows more about the kid than anybody, having knowingly interacted and communicated with him on multiple levels.

:ganishka: You dared to go where I didn't!

I knew you were thinking it!
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 21, 2015, 03:51:40 PM
Yeah, but it's not like we understand the nature of any of that;

Of course, but it's still so many little clues that can point us in the right direction. :SK:

Since we know so few details as you say, it's interesting to speculate how Fantasia might have changed things behind the scenes (though I'm sure we've covered it all before). Obviously, the distinction between the physical and astral world was such before that Femto required a physical vessel to cross over. Logically, the boy, assuming he's some manifestation of Guts/Casca's child's spirit, wouldn't transcend that law and would also require a/the vessel ("I'm taking the car tonight."). That could have very well changed with the new world, much as his mode of transportation.

It's hard to speak authoritatively on the state of the world right now since we haven't had much exposure to astral side of things yet. That being said, things haven't changed for the boy in any visible manner aside from his use of the tree as a means to travel. He's still the same and still has the same powers from what we've seen. We also know that he travels through the branches using a corporeal body (and even wearing clothes), and that he can leave said body in his astral form to go seek Guts whenever needed. An astral form that, in episode 327, was made to closely resemble Griffith... Putting all of that aside, the physical vessel you mention is actually the boy's own body, so it would make sense for him to still inhabit it. That's a sentiment further reinforced by what we saw in volume 22. The fact that despite what Griffith thought, his forceful takeover of said vessel did not destroy the boy's consciousness, and that the sight of his parents awakened emotions so strong in him that he could actually wring control away from Griffith for a few seconds.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Walter on October 21, 2015, 05:15:18 PM
Whew, that's a lot of baby talk. We certainly aren't going to solve this riddle in this thread, or at this moment. I merely wanted to clarify that I don't think this episode throws much of a wrench in the gears as some were making it out to be.

Anyway, I was out of town when the ep came out, and I had to wait until just now to actually view it on a full-sized monitor. Berserk on a phone may as well be no Berserk at all... So here are more of my impressions:

Seeing the Garuda up close is fucking great. What a cool design. It's easy to just say it's a pterodactyl, but it's quite a bit more unique than that. The weird bendy neck, alligator mouth, tail, chicken legs. And the way these ferocious beasts debuted in this ep was fantastic, even if it was pretty predictable. Also, Daiba making snakes and rats work together like that   :daiba:

One thing I couldn't immediately explain: When we saw Daiba levitate in Vritannis' bay, it appeared that he was manipulating water, presumably with the aid of the Kundalini. But there's no such creature here to draw that elemental power from. So, then is it just his ability to manipulate the small amount of moisture in the air to achieve that?
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 21, 2015, 05:45:01 PM
It's hard to speak authoritatively on the state of the world right now since we haven't had much exposure to astral side of things yet. That being said, things haven't changed for the boy in any visible manner aside from his use of the tree as a means to travel. He's still the same and still has the same powers from what we've seen. We also know that he travels through the branches using a corporeal body (and even wearing clothes), and that he can leave said body in his astral form to go seek Guts whenever needed. An astral form that, in episode 327, was made to closely resemble Griffith...

So, perhaps it's just the aspect of Griffith's innocence and remorse, missing his lost friends? :griffnotevil: :judo:

Ha ha, but seriously, later in 331, when we see the boy traveling, he appears to be standing in physical form on a spirit tree branch (which Guts can notably see at the time), then as he dips into it he appears to take on an astral form, clothes and all, before moving like a shooting star, so... uh, whatever? :???:

I think Schierke's theory on the boy is interesting as well obviously, though we have some information she doesn't. For one, the muddled physical/astral nature of the boy doesn't confound or seem beyond the pale to her, and her explanation confirming his probable ties to the moon is helpful, but most intriguing is her idea that he could have something to do with the King of the Flower Storm, that he could even be him or a representative. Perhaps the King of the Flower Storm found an ideal representative, and a way to already aid Guts and Casca, by lending some power to the the boy.

Putting all of that aside, the physical vessel you mention is actually the boy's own body, so it would make sense for him to still inhabit it. That's a sentiment further reinforced by what we saw in volume 22. The fact that despite what Griffith thought, his forceful takeover of said vessel did not destroy the boy's consciousness, and that the sight of his parents awakened emotions so strong in him that he could actually wring control away from Griffith for a few seconds.

Yes, that's very compelling, but it's also quite a leap from that sort of influence to full on transformations, but anything is possible given the unique nature of Griffith (he transforms anyway) and all the other mysterious forces potentially at work here. I take back what I said about Walter's use of the word muddled. Muddled indeed. =)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 21, 2015, 06:35:05 PM
One thing I couldn't immediately explain: When we saw Daiba levitate in Vritannis' bay, it appeared that he was manipulating water, presumably with the aid of the Kundalini. But there's no such creature here to draw that elemental power from. So, then is it just his ability to manipulate the small amount of moisture in the air to achieve that?

No, Daiba used the Kundalini to create the whirlpools, but he could always just levitate by himself. He uses Sylphs for that and was already doing it during his first appearance. When he appeared to Guts in Vritannis, he was also floating in the air even before unleashing the Kundalini's power. Lastly, when Ganishka plunged himself into the artificial beherit, Daiba used his mastery of the wind element to save himself from death by deflecting the life leeching fog (creating a flux around himself) that Ganishka unleashed on the city.

Ha ha, but seriously, later in 331, when we see the boy traveling, he appears to be standing in physical form on a spirit tree branch (which Guts can notably see at the time), then as he dips into it he appears to take on an astral form, clothes and all, before moving like a shooting star, so... uh, whatever?

I think the panels are too small to tell whether he takes on an astral form or not. Could be, or his corporeal self could also be traveling through the astral world, which would make sense given the whole Fantasia thing.

I think Schierke's theory on the boy is interesting as well obviously, though we have some information she doesn't. For one, the muddled physical/astral nature of the boy doesn't confound or seem beyond the pale to her, and her explanation confirming his probable ties to the moon is helpful, but most intriguing is her idea that he could have something to do with the King of the Flower Storm, that he could even be him or a representative. Perhaps the King of the Flower Storm found an ideal representative, and a way to already aid Guts and Casca, by lending some power to the the boy.

Ehhhh, I don't buy the Elfhelm connexion Schierke pulled out of her hat. It makes sense from her perspective, but there are way too many things associating the boy to Griffith for it to be an elf matter in my opinion. Besides, that would establish the king's reach as enormous and make it weird that the group had to travel to Elfhelm while the boy came to them before they even got to Vritannis. Plus when the boy leaves the ship in episode 331, he goes in the other direction, not towards Elfhelm (unless the Sea Horse is dramatically off course). There's more but basically it doesn't hold water to me.

However there's one unexplained thing about the boy that we didn't mention and it's what sticks out the most in the current theory as far as I'm concerned: the fact his power comes without evil. He doesn't make the Brand bleed, and Schierke doesn't feel evil in his Od. That's the bigger mystery to me, assuming his power is somehow tied to that of Femto. Maybe the Beherit Apostle made his wish (to be a real boy, of course) come true in this "perfect world" of his. ;)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Devilwoman on October 21, 2015, 09:26:35 PM
As usual thanks Aazealh for the summary. What a great episode, glad to see Daiba play a role in the escape.
So if Griffith can stand in the full moon in his own body then that rules out the possibility of him being the moonlight boy.
So we could see Guts and co next? Awesome but I don't want to get my hopes too high...Can't wait for next episode.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Walter on October 21, 2015, 09:29:07 PM
So if Griffith can stand in the full moon in his own body then that rules out the possibility of him being the moonlight boy.

No, it doesn't. You should explore the discussion thread.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Devilwoman on October 21, 2015, 09:58:07 PM
No, it doesn't. You should explore the discussion thread.

Maybe, or maybe not. Clearly we don't know the exact details of how Griffith could appear as the moonlight boy during the full moon. Nor are we sure that the moonlight boy is a separate entity from Griffith, rather than it being simply Griffith transformed. But to me it looks like if Griffith can stand in the full moon without having to revert to the moonlight boy who is most likely Guts and Casca's child, then it changes a few things.
We assume that Griffith cannot control this state, and that during a full moon the child seizes control of his original body, as he has appeared to his parents in order to help them. But here we have Griffith standing in the moonlight while there is a full moon without the boy taking over. So it could be that Griffith willingly relinquishes the control of his body, during full moons since I believe that Schierke said that spirits are the strongest in that period.
As to why he would do that, well it could be a bunch of things. We saw that Griffith is still curious about Guts, as he was seen watching him in Vritannis, and in this episode something similar happens with Rickert.So if he wants to keep up, so to speak, with Guts  then what better way to send his own son. However the child was seen helping his parents so it's more likely that Griffith has to let him out once in a while, to meet his parents since he yearns for them. And during the full moon it could be that the child becomes more powerful, so it becomes harder for Griffith to contain him.
I also find the theory that the boy could be an avatar of the Flower Storm king to be really interesting, and he uses that form because it could be familiar to Casca at the very least. She sure cares about the boy and was worried that he wasn't there anymore, but I feel it would make more sense that she'd act that way if it's her own son, rather than just a manifestation.
Well I tried to wrap my head around it a bit, right now we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle,so it's kinda hard to come up with a definite answer. And sorry if I sounded definite in my first post, I was simply thinking about that possiblity, it wasn't in anyway an elaborate answer. Just me caught in my thought process.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: SpaceyLauss on October 21, 2015, 11:11:20 PM
Thank you so much for the summary Aazealh  :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Walter on October 22, 2015, 01:26:18 AM
We assume that Griffith cannot control this state, and that during a full moon the child seizes control of his original body, as he has appeared to his parents in order to help them. But here we have Griffith standing in the moonlight while there is a full moon without the boy taking over. So it could be that Griffith willingly relinquishes the control of his body, during full moons since I believe that Schierke said that spirits are the strongest in that period.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the child seizing control of the body and Griffith having to relinquish control of it because the child's power is too strong on full moons. Those sound like one scenario to me.

The child doesn't need to visit its parents every full moon. No sea gods are on the horizon for Guts and co at the moment, I'd presume. Afterall, this whole thing is a fairly recent phenomenon. Vritannis bay was probably 2-3 months ago. Where was the child before that point? And do we really expect prompt, monthly visits from the boy, even if all that's on the menu for danger is a few specters? All of its visits heretofore have been to intervene in life or death scenarios to protect its parents.

I know it's tempting to get bogged down in the logistics of how and why, but I think the fundamental piece to understanding this phenomenon is recalling what happened back on the Hill of Swords. When the child took control of Griffith's body momentarily to protect Casca, that is likely in essence what's happening with the boy, on a grander scale. Through the power of the full moon, he can do more than merely momentarily control the body. He can reach out across the planet in a form suitable to rejoining his family and protect his parents.

Quote
As to why he would do that, well it could be a bunch of things. We saw that Griffith is still curious about Guts, as he was seen watching him in Vritannis, and in this chapter something similar happens with Rickert.So if he wants to keep up, so to speak, with Guts  then what better way to send his own son.

That's quite a stretch. Griffith was there to confront Ganishka. He just happened to arrive as Guts and the others left, and he and Guts had a momentary glimpse of each other. Anyway, if Griffith wanted to spy on the group, it'd be utterly child's play to do so his resources. And the method you propose would be more like a charity mission than an infultration that he'd genuinely benefit from.

Quote
However the child was seen helping his parents so it's more likely that Griffith has to let him out once in a while, to meet his parents since he yearns for them. And during the full moon it could be that the child becomes more powerful, so it becomes harder for Griffith to contain him.

Yep.

Quote
I also find the theory that the boy could be an avatar of the Flower Storm king to be really interesting, and he uses that form because it could be familiar to Casca at the very least. She sure cares about the boy and was worried that he wasn't there anymore, but I feel it would make more sense that she'd act that way if it's her own son, rather than just a manifestation.

Particularly since her reaction to the boy aligns perfectly to her reaction with the demon child previously. For it to have been the elf king's avatar posing as their son all along would end up being quite an awkward betrayal, regardless of the intent. It just doesn't sound natural at all, to me.

Quote
Well I tried to wrap my head around it a bit, right now we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle,so it's kinda hard to come up with a definite answer.

We don't have all the pieces, it's true. But I think the theory Aaz came up with 9 years ago (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=4321.msg118658#msg118658) is pretty sound, and has withstood the test of time and the slow release of additional information along the way.

Quote
And sorry if I sounded definite in my first post, I was simply thinking about that possiblity, it wasn't in anyway an elaborate answer. Just me caught in my thought process.

It's fine, but you just arrived in the thread with a definitive-sounding statement after we had just finished an involved back and forth about the subject.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 22, 2015, 05:28:15 AM

Well I tried to wrap my head around it a bit, right now we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle,so it's kinda hard to come up with a definite answer. And sorry if I sounded definite in my first post, I was simply thinking about that possiblity, it wasn't in anyway an elaborate answer. Just me caught in my thought process.

That's why you should check what other people have said before posting in a thread. Besides being the courteous and respectful thing to do, it helps inform your reflection so that you can build on the previous discussions rather than simply repeat them.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 22, 2015, 06:08:53 AM
I think the panels are too small to tell whether he takes on an astral form or not. Could be, or his corporeal self could also be traveling through the astral world, which would make sense given the whole Fantasia thing.

It could also just be that we're seeing him from the astral POV in that shot to emphasize the nature of that travel (supporting that idea is the moon disappears from sight, which could be a style choice so we can see the boy clearly). Overall though, I feel like astral/physical distinctions matter less and less here, and certainly aren't reliable qualifiers for what's probable, let alone possible.

Ehhhh, I don't buy the Elfhelm connexion Schierke pulled out of her hat. It makes sense from her perspective, but there are way too many things associating the boy to Griffith for it to be an elf matter in my opinion. Besides, that would establish the king's reach as enormous and make it weird that the group had to travel to Elfhelm while the boy came to them before they even got to Vritannis. Plus when the boy leaves the ship in episode 331, he goes in the other direction, not towards Elfhelm (unless the Sea Horse is dramatically off course). There's more but basically it doesn't hold water to me.

Sure, let's not let three pages worth of exposition from one of the most knowledgeable characters in the series affect an unassailable** theory! :schierke:<(I get no respect.)

While I agree Schierke's working with incomplete information, I certainly don't think her perspective should be ignored. Especially the revelation that the King of the Flower Storm apparently could have such enormous reach. I mean, this shit's incredible: "They say that some of the elves have enormous power, that they're able to decipher time-transgressive fates and to use the truth of hidden secrets, transcending space. I think he might not just be something like a messenger but an incarnation of the King of the Flower Storm." Again, pretty heady and thought-provoking stuff however we interpret it, and given the source there's no reason to think the King of the Flower Storm couldn't have a hand in the boy's fate, which isn't mutually exclusive with the aforementioned connection to Griffith. It's also not like Miura to throw out a lot of misleading information or red herrings, and even if that's the case then who's to say what information is false; so either there's something to this, which isn't hard to rectify with the established Griffith/Child theory, or he's using it to set up the idea of a true messenger/incarnation to come or just give us more info on the King of the Flower Storm (still, he could have done that any time, and without directly linking the boy to the King). Either way, even if Schierke is wrong about the boy's origins, it certainly gives us a nice analysis of the sort of power he's showing and at least implies there's more to it than what we previously thought.

However there's one unexplained thing about the boy that we didn't mention and it's what sticks out the most in the current theory as far as I'm concerned: the fact his power comes without evil. He doesn't make the Brand bleed, and Schierke doesn't feel evil in his Od. That's the bigger mystery to me, assuming his power is somehow tied to that of Femto. Maybe the Beherit Apostle made his wish (to be a real boy, of course) come true in this "perfect world" of his. ;)

That's one of the things I like about the idea of the boy not literally being a manifestation or transformation of Griffith's physical form. It wouldn't be much different from how the demon child used to appear to Guts and Casca before, except now he's somehow purified or reborn himself. Either way, Zodd Squad Investigations (or escort service) is on the case.

I know it's tempting to get bogged down in the logistics of how and why, but I think the fundamental piece to understanding this phenomenon is recalling what happened back on the Hill of Swords. When the child took control of Griffith's body momentarily to protect Casca, that is likely in essence what's happening with the boy, on a grander scale. Through the power of the full moon, he can do more than merely momentarily control the body. He can reach out across the planet in a form suitable to rejoining his family and protect his parents.

I think everyone can agree on that, like you say, without getting bogged down on details.

Particularly since her reaction to the boy aligns perfectly to her reaction with the demon child previously. For it to have been the elf king's avatar posing as their son all along would end up being quite an awkward betrayal, regardless of the intent. It just doesn't sound natural at all, to me.

But what if the King was using his ability to "decipher time-transgressive fates and to use the truth of hidden secrets, transcending space" to allow the spirit of Casca's actual son to "be a messenger," despite otherwise being tethered to the evilest man on the planet? Sounds exactly like the kind of powers that would make that possible for the Elf King to arrange. Also, this just has me geeked for the King himself, the only comparable force sounds like... :idea:

We don't have all the pieces, it's true. But I think the theory Aaz came up with 9 years ago (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=4321.msg118658#msg118658) is pretty sound, and has withstood the test of time and the slow release of additional information along the way.

Agreed, but we shouldn't dismiss or stop incorporating new information, especially if it's potentially contradictory; if for no other reason than to bolster the strength of the theory. :griffnotevil:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Theozilla on October 22, 2015, 08:51:52 AM
You mean like an astral projection? That actually complicates things. The boy has form and weight. Also, he astrally projects himself to rescue Guts from the sea god. Furthermore if he were a projection, Zodd wouldn't need to be around the rocky cliffs outside Vritannis (the boy also leaves during that time by climbing up a rocky cliff), presumably ferrying him back and forth, before the World Spiral Tree provided a more efficient form of travel. If you're proposing he creates an entirely new body every full moon, well, what allegiance would Zodd have to him?

I'm not saying we know 100% how this all works, but I've yet to encounter a more convincing alternative, given all the wrinkles present.
I meant an entirely new physical body manifests/split off from Griffith. As for what allegiance/concern Zodd would have if the Moonlight Boy had a separate physical existence from Griffith during full moons is that I still would envision their relationship to be one a shared lifeforce. To use other pieces of media as examples, such as the film DragonHeart and the manga/anime Inuyasha, in both of those stories there were two characters (Draco the dragon & Einon the evil king for DragonHeart and the main antagonist Naraku and a being he split off from himself known as The Infant/Mōryōmaru for Inuyasha) that each had a separate physical existence from each other but both shared a mutual "heart" that was contained/possessed by one member of each of the pairs (Draco and The Infant/Mōryōmaru) and if harm came to the individual containing the "heat" it could/would be fatal to the other member. So if the Moonlight Boy had a separate physical existence from Griffith during the full moon I could envision/sepculate the relationship being something like that (with the Moonlight Boy being the one containing the "heart" of the two since Griffith's current physical vessel was originally transformed from the Moonlight Boy/Demon Child's body).

The actual way in which the boy manifests in regard to Griffith has always been the biggest unknown, and the part we have least speculated about aside from the idea he might just transform. There are numerous ways in which it might occur that would work with the information we already have.
I agree, I was just proposing one alternative way that could also possibly work (based on other media I've seen) in addition to the Griffith physically transforming in the Moonlight Boy method/theory.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 22, 2015, 06:28:03 PM
I agree, I was just proposing one alternative way that could also possibly work (based on other media I've seen) in addition to the Griffith physically transforming in the Moonlight Boy method/theory.

Sure, it's just that it's nothing new. The idea of a split between them was proposed way back then. It was actually the default theory before the possibility of a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde scenario was introduced.

It could also just be that we're seeing him from the astral POV in that shot to emphasize the nature of that travel

Yeah, could be.

Sure, let's not let three pages worth of exposition from one of the most knowledgeable characters in the series affect an unassailable** theory! :schierke:<(I get no respect.)

That comment feels disingenuous and opportunitistic, especially considering you're the first to agree she doesn't have the full picture, and are simultaneously ready to not let hundreds of pages of astral/physical exposition get in the way of determining what's probable or not in the story...

While I agree Schierke's working with incomplete information, I certainly don't think her perspective should be ignored.

Given the available information, I have no problem dismissing her guess that the Boy is really the Elf King in disguise. Meanwhile, what her dialog tells us about the King of the Flower Storm is interesting beyond the boy himself.

Again, pretty heady and thought-provoking stuff however we interpret it

It's a very cool line, but personally it didn't fundamentally change my perception of the character. We already knew from the Skull Knight and Schierke that the King of the Flower Storm was incredibly powerful. Now we have some details about possible abilities ("it is said" that "some of the elves" can sense possible futures and travel through astral shortcuts), but the real heavy stuff is yet to come.

given the source there's no reason to think the King of the Flower Storm couldn't have a hand in the boy's fate, which isn't mutually exclusive with the aforementioned connection to Griffith. [...] what if the King was using his ability to "decipher time-transgressive fates and to use the truth of hidden secrets, transcending space" to allow the spirit of Casca's actual son to "be a messenger," despite otherwise being tethered to the evilest man on the planet? Sounds exactly like the kind of powers that would make that possible for the Elf King to arrange.

Actually, Schierke is clearly not sure of herself in those two pages; she's guessing. And I'm not convinced it isn't mutually exclusive. Schierke's eventual guess is that the boy is the King of the Flower Storm himself, and that doesn't seem to be the case to me. Also, the specific powers she describes don't sound to me like they could allow the Elf King to split the Moonlight Boy apart from Griffith, a member of the God Hand. And it's not what she's hinting at either, she just thinks the Elf King could be appearing in front of them to help them. In that regard, her hypothesis is completely wrong. Finally, he'd be a strange messenger considering all he seems to care about is being with his parents. Maybe there's a satisfying way in which this would work, but I haven't found it.

It's also not like Miura to throw out a lot of misleading information or red herrings

Easy for you to say, you haven't spent the last 10 years explaining to people that no, Guts is not the Falcon of Darkness. And I'd say the only misleading information would be Schierke's guess, since everything else points in the direction of the Griffith connexion. To get back to the beginning of this discussion (the part actually relevant to episode 341), I don't think seeing a panel of Griffith standing in presence of the full moon casts any doubt on the connexion between him and the boy. Just like the boy showing up on the solitary island, a place Zodd couldn't have possibly brought him to, didn't cast doubt on the fact Zodd had been there on the beach.

or he's using it to [...] give us more info on the King of the Flower Storm (still, he could have done that any time, and without directly linking the boy to the King).

Episode 331 feels appropriate for that to me, just like it has Guts mulling what the Skull Knight said about the Berserk's armor and about Casca's wishes. As for using the mystery of the boy to talk about the king, it just seems like a convenient and clever narrative trick.

That's one of the things I like about the idea of the boy not literally being a manifestation or transformation of Griffith's physical form. It wouldn't be much different from how the demon child used to appear to Guts and Casca before, except now he's somehow purified or reborn himself.

As a reminder, Griffith was not "reborn" out of thin air. Femto was incarnated into a new vessel: the boy's body. That's why it makes sense for them to share said body.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: JMP on October 22, 2015, 10:42:38 PM
Thanks for the episode link and summary, Aazealh!  :ubik:

Been fun reading through the discussion about the moonlight boy. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all unfolds.

Anyway, Daiba expects them to be out of danger once they take off, and is surprised to see that "the crumpled rug can fly".
Oh my gosh, that is too funny!  :ganishka:

Daiba really gets to shine in this episode! I guess the rats and snakes could present a significant problem for Rakshas, especially with the large numbers of them that come streaming out. He's infested with snakes binding up bits of his cloak body and rats gnawing away at his fabric! Maybe he was able to eventually suffocate and/or crush them, though by enveloping them. In the shot of him flying through the air his long, coiling body reminds me a bit of a traditional Eastern-style dragon.

I like the Garuda, too. They look like some kind of cross between a pterodactyl and a Venus fly trap plant to me. LOL I wonder if Daiba had more than one from his days as Ganishka's right hand man or if he obtained/bred more later on.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 22, 2015, 11:02:07 PM
That comment feels disingenuous and opportunitistic, especially considering you're the first to agree she doesn't have the full picture, and are simultaneously ready to not let hundreds of pages of astral/physical exposition get in the way of determining what's probable or not in the story...

Well, I take that very seriously because, if it’s become at all unclear, I trust your knowledge and judgment more than anybody here, so if that’s how it feels to you I do apologize. I was attempting to be facetious and provocative while challenging convention. Thus, why I also conceded Schierke’s limitation while considering the new information she offers. As for the astral/physical nature of the boy and its relevance, I was merely pointing out that he may be defying conventions himself (and they could have changed between encounters) and it's almost like anything goes, but fair point. Anyway, none of this falls under the normal or obvious, even by astral standards; including the prospect of Griffith physically turning into a little boy and back again, even if that checks a wonderful number of boxes. After all, even it’s still got holes requiring leaps like, as you graciously pointed out, why proximity to that same body doesn’t affect Guts and Casca? Unless Femto/Griffith’s Od IS existing elsewhere at the time... or something, I’m just spit balling here. What do you think?

It's a very cool line, but personally it didn't fundamentally change my perception of the character. We already knew from the Skull Knight and Schierke that the King of the Flower Storm was incredibly powerful. Now we have some details about possible abilities ("it is said" that "some of the elves" can sense possible futures and travel through astral shortcuts), but the real heavy stuff is yet to come.

Guts telling a monster to fuck off is a cool line, that was pretty significant, at least to me, even though we already knew the King was powerful before. And while there's certainly more to come, then why doubt his reach or Schierke’s academic knowledge of it? Her information on the boy is certainly incomplete, but there’s no reason to think she’s completely wrong about everything there, especially given her level of expertise (either way it can still inform us about the nature of the boy, such as him perhaps being a similar sort of incarnation, just not the one she thinks). It’s also of note since traveling through astral shortcuts seems like precisely what we see the boy doing afterward. Now, this coincidence could be what’s leading to her confusion, but it’s not improbable that there could be a legitimate connection, especially when the idea is being waved in our face (of course just writing that made me suspicious).

Actually, Schierke is clearly not sure of herself in those two pages; she's guessing. And I'm not convinced it isn't mutually exclusive. Schierke's eventual guess is that the boy is the King of the Flower Storm himself, and that doesn't seem to be the case to me.

I like her guesses better than most people’s facts (trivia for anyone who can say where that reference is from). And while she does guess it could be the King, her initial guess is that he’s some sort of emissary. Maybe she was right the first time.

Also, the specific powers she describes don't sound to me like they could allow the Elf King to split the Moonlight Boy apart from Griffith, a member of the God Hand.

Sure, but why not? We can't really know at this point, and to be fair, it's all so theoretical I shouldn't have even said it sounds like it could allow that, but the description of the extent of those powers is almost like a blank check so it's hard to say either way.

And it's not what she's hinting at either, she just thinks the Elf King could be appearing in front of them to help them. In that regard, her hypothesis is completely wrong.

I concede that one way or another she’s likely wrong somehow, but I guess what I’m grasping at is, exactly how, and, why she’s wrong and what purpose this information is meant to serve instead if we're not meant to take it at face value. Are we being thrown off the scent, is it setting up something else, another messenger or exposition on the King as we've discussed, or is it only food for thought? I just found it interesting how much the episode went in on that, particularly the dramatic focus on her during that ultimate "revelation" she thinks it could be the King.

Finally, he'd be a strange messenger considering all he seems to care about is being with his parents.

Not so strange that Schierke didn't get the idea he could have a connection to Elfhelm. Again, we don’t know the nature of the King or his agenda or how he sees things; it could be precisely what the doctor ordered. Much as the demon child’s connection to Griffith pulls us in that direction, the connection Casca has to the child and the prospective significance the King has to her, and now potentially the boy, draws me in that direction as well. Again, highly theoretical and not nearly so simple and elegant as the Griffith connection, but thus why I’m entertaining how these ideas work in tandem and offering them up to you for vivisection.

Easy for you to say, you haven't spent the last 10 years explaining to people that no, Guts is not the Falcon of Darkness.

Touché (and I’m truly sorry =)! But hey, I know who in the story was saying that, how much weight it was really given, and who these people are you had to explain it to (again, very sorry =). So, on that note, was Miura really being misleading or were those guys just easily confused? Anyway, I hope this is at least better than doing that, if only slightly. :griffnotevil:

And I'd say the only misleading information would be Schierke's guess, since everything else points in the direction of the Griffith connexion.

Well, just as your not ruling out the boy manifesting separately, I'm not denying the Griffith connection nor saying I think it's really the King either; just that connections to both aren't necessarily mutually exclusive and I'm giving Schierke's words some due eight here, especially since there's conflicting information.

I don't think seeing a panel of Griffith standing in presence of the full moon casts any doubt on the connexion between him and the boy.

Nor do I, not on the connection, but it is instructive to an admittedly minor extent; that he doesn't automatically, involuntarily become the boy in the full moon light. Obviously, the alternative would have been affirming in the extreme, but the absence of that doesn't take anything away from the theory, just leaves some room still for alternatives regarding it.

As a reminder, Griffith was not "reborn" out of thin air.Femto was incarnated into a new vessel: the boy's body. That's why it makes sense for them to share said body.

That’s what admittedly makes it an extremely attractive idea, a complete realization of a connection that has to be true in some fashion, unless the moonlight boy really has nothing to do with the demon child (which would be insane), but in what fashion they share it and how it works is still unknown and debatable at this point.


P.S. Sorry for dragging you into an unnecessary quote post trench war on a subject we actually largely agree on, but I didn't want to seem like I was glossing over or ignoring your points either. Also, if I just nodded along all the time it wouldn't make for much of an interesting conversation on my end. =)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: flagawax on October 23, 2015, 01:52:03 PM
Thx for the episode ..

Incredible  "Rickert Man" :rickert: ... after the "Machine Arrow Gun", now the "Fatal Bazooka" awesome guy ..
The last scene remind me E.T. with the moon and the bicycle ...

A question (maybe answered) : You explain, rats and snakes distract Rakshas, Just distract or afraid Rakshas ? It's not easy to see in the picture if the animals "tickle" Rakshas or enter inside his blacksuit ...

Byebye Luka
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: ApostleBob on October 23, 2015, 03:30:53 PM
I agree with Griffith to keep a skeptical view, the Moonlight boy theory on principle.  It's still an incredibly strong theory, and I think it's more than likely to be correct, but Miura might take us a different direction.  He's done it before with Ganishka's apostle form, and Rakshas's whereabouts after the merging of the worlds.  Still, I'd be surprised if he doesn't use the opportunity to tie Griffith to their child in a dramatic way like this. It's ripe for conflict if killing Griffith means killing his son. 

But on another level, who cares if we see Griffith with a full moon. The theory isn't really contingent on Griffith transforming every full moon.  Only that it's his only opportunity to do so. Since Femto's been incarnated in the boys body, how many full moons have there been in world where we don't see the moonlight boy appear? Plenty. Guts was protecting Casca alone for what appears to be weeks after the Hill of Swords and after the rest of the group showed up, it's implied that they've been traveling together for what appears to be months.

Perhaps there's another factor to consider as to why the boy appears some times and not others. We know the moon is a factor. Perhaps it's tied to his parents being in grave danger. Perhaps somehow it's tied to Guts wearing the berserker armor and giving off a new Od, as it only started to occur after this point.  Don't know.  But we at least now know it isn't mandatory with a full moon.   

On a side note, after re-reading this episode, I'm going to double down on my assertion that Rakshas isn't doing much for a long time. After the snakes and rats get on him, Silat, Daiba, and Rickert hold a full conversation for pages before they hop on the Garuda. I know it was mentioned that this was supposed to take place really quickly, but it sure doesn't appear that way. Maybe I'm missing something in the translation though. I'm just not sure how these snakes are holding him down.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 23, 2015, 06:53:02 PM
A question (maybe answered) : You explain, rats and snakes distract Rakshas, Just distract or afraid Rakshas ? It's not easy to see in the picture if the animals "tickle" Rakshas or enter inside his blacksuit ...

I doubt he was truly afraid, more taken aback and distracted, plus even rats and snakes can be a force when there's hundreds like that (death by a thousand paper cuts). I admit it’s fun to read his reaction like, “EEEEEEEK!” though. Also, adding rats and snakes to his already creepy body makes for maximum skin crawlege. I don’t know who I felt worse for, him or the vermin.

I agree with Griffith to keep a skeptical view, the Moonlight boy theory on principle.  It's still an incredibly strong theory, and I think it's more than likely to be correct, but Miura might take us a different direction.

Just to clarify since I think my position looks more fortified or extreme from debating the finer points with Aaz, I’m not even saying to be skeptical of it, it just shouldn’t take up all the oxygen in the room or be accepted as dogma at the expense of probable alternatives. That's not even really the problem though, I think it’s more that we’re so sensitive to misinformation getting out we don’t want to see false assumptions like, “Griffith standing in the full moon disproves the boy theory” get any traction, so we’ll more vigorously promote its obvious merits that people may be overlooking.

He's done it before with Ganishka's apostle form

Speaking of alternatives, Ganishka almost always comes to mind when I’m considering ways the boy could manifest besides physically taking over and controlling the body (I like how the “body” or “vessel” is almost a separate character now =). Nothing I can quite put my finger on, but just how seemingly strange and unique his own powers were. It’s interesting to imagine Griffith sweating it out at home while the moonlight boy is on the town, not unlike Ganishka in his tent when Guts and Zodd pierced his fog form, scarring him. BTW…

It's ripe for conflict if killing Griffith means killing his son. 

Yeah, that is the obvious major dramatic conflict this would potentially add (and another point for the boy literally being the body, since it ups the drama and complications further and begs the question if can they be separated), but what if it’s even worse, what if Griffith/Femto is actually invincible… save for the boy? :sad:

and Rakshas's whereabouts after the merging of the worlds.

Uh, I think I was the only one going in a different direction with that one. The WRONG direction. :ganishka:

On a side note, after re-reading this episode, I'm going to double down on my assertion that Rakshas isn't doing much for a long time.

 :rakshas:"EEEEEEK!"

I wouldn't worry about it too much, like I said he had his hands full if nothing else, and again, it's not like this was actually desperate times for him where he just had to kill them so fast. They were literally throwing everything they had at him in that fight and to Rakshas it was probably more like he was being tickled, and up until getting a rocketed in the face, he was still in hot (no pun intended) pursuit like nothing had happened. Even with that I would guess his pride is the only thing permanently damaged.

Oh yeah, and it's a story! Sometimes there's creative liberties taken with time and space for dramatic effect (a notable example is when Guts got the Berserk's Armor, and Miura even added some material for clarification). It's like when a 30 second bomb timer takes 3 minutes of screen time to wind down; dramatic relativity. =)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 24, 2015, 11:34:19 AM
Unless Femto/Griffith’s Od IS existing elsewhere at the time... or something, I’m just spit balling here. What do you think?

I have considered that possibility before (Femto being "ousted" from the body for a time), but I find it hard to reconcile with the panel of the boy's astral form in episode 327 (http://aazealh.net/Divers/MoonlightBoy-Astral.jpg). Beyond that, there's also a certain coldness to his demeanor that I feel connects him to Griffith. Still, like I said before, this is the one part we really don't have any clues about, so... could be.

Guts telling a monster to fuck off is a cool line, that was pretty significant, at least to me, even though we already knew the King was powerful before. And while there's certainly more to come, then why doubt his reach or Schierke’s academic knowledge of it? Her information on the boy is certainly incomplete, but there’s no reason to think she’s completely wrong about everything there, especially given her level of expertise (either way it can still inform us about the nature of the boy, such as him perhaps being a similar sort of incarnation, just not the one she thinks). It’s also of note since traveling through astral shortcuts seems like precisely what we see the boy doing afterward. Now, this coincidence could be what’s leading to her confusion, but it’s not improbable that there could be a legitimate connection, especially when the idea is being waved in our face (of course just writing that made me suspicious).

Well I'm just saying she's wording this in a way that indicates she's unsure of herself. And it's clear from the dialog that her supposition was born from the desire to connect the boy, an unknown yet very powerful being, to another very powerful being she knows of. To explain why this unknown being would randomly come to aid them. Deciphering time-transgressive fates was her way of explaining how the boy could know who they were and where to find them while they haven't met the king yet, and using the hidden truths of the world to travel would have allowed him to come to them from far away. However, how does that explain the fact Casca is actually the one who comes to find the boy everytime?

Both on the beach and on the island, she came to him as soon as he appeared... Feeling him in her Brand, like she's always done since he was born. And how did he travel to the beach before the World-Spiral Tree (that stands right next to Falconia and that Femto made happen) came to be? And then it means Zodd was just there as a coincidence, and didn't act because...? I think her interpretation just has too many inconsistencies. And while the idea that the King of the Flower Storm could act like a catalyst in the appearance of the boy is interesting, I feel like it's not directly supported by what she says in those pages because she doesn't account for the Griffith factor.

I concede that one way or another she’s likely wrong somehow, but I guess what I’m grasping at is, exactly how, and, why she’s wrong and what purpose this information is meant to serve instead if we're not meant to take it at face value. Are we being thrown off the scent, is it setting up something else, another messenger or exposition on the King as we've discussed, or is it only food for thought? I just found it interesting how much the episode went in on that, particularly the dramatic focus on her during that ultimate "revelation" she thinks it could be the King.

Now that's a good question. I think there's several ways in which it's interesting. First off, I do believe it serves as a bit of a diversion regarding the boy, if only because the careful reader will have had a clue about him for quite a while by then. I also don't mind that characters aren't always infallible, it adds a bit of realism. Second, it's a reminder that the Elf King is super cool and a way to build up hype (now imagine if he's just about as serious as Puck is most of the time), which I find that episode to be doing a lot. It also has something about Farnese's feelings for Guts, the Berserk's armor, Casca's state and why she's in that state, what her desires might be... It's almost a recap of all the cool things to come.

Third, we do learn that the Elf King can basically sense possible futures, which will likely play a big role going forward. It will probably inform Guts' decision about his future course of action and might provide the impetus for him to not stay in Elfhelm (and additionally, it might help explain some of the Skull Knight's own supernatural insights). Fourth, I think Schierke's mistake here provides a good reason for them to ask the king about the boy directly, and for him to lay down the truth (or part of it) in return. Fifth, we also learn that he knows how to travel through the astral world (not necessarily to do so himself, but to allow others to), and while that's not exactly a big reveal I think it's preparing us for the fact the group will not return to the mainland by sea, but through magical means.

Nor do I, not on the connection, but it is instructive to an admittedly minor extent; that he doesn't automatically, involuntarily become the boy in the full moon light. Obviously, the alternative would have been affirming in the extreme, but the absence of that doesn't take anything away from the theory, just leaves some room still for alternatives regarding it.

I completely agree. It is a clue, even if it doesn't help us much. I actually find it very interesting how it's done too, with Griffith looking in that direction but the reader not being able to tell what it is he's looking at exactly. And the escapees, the moon and the tree branches all being in the same frame... I don't believe Miura did that by coincidence.

P.S. Sorry for dragging you into an unnecessary quote post trench war on a subject we actually largely agree on, but I didn't want to seem like I was glossing over or ignoring your points either. Also, if I just nodded along all the time it wouldn't make for much of an interesting conversation on my end. =)

I do resent it a bit... I don't have time for this stuff anymore! :ganishka:
__________________________________

I agree with Griffith to keep a skeptical view, the Moonlight boy theory on principle.  It's still an incredibly strong theory, and I think it's more than likely to be correct, but Miura might take us a different direction.  He's done it before with Ganishka's apostle form, and Rakshas's whereabouts after the merging of the worlds.

There's not much to be skeptical about concerning the general theory, it's just that we don't know all the details yet. Ganishka is a completely different case, and Rakshas is a non-event.

I'd be surprised if he doesn't use the opportunity to tie Griffith to their child in a dramatic way like this. It's ripe for conflict if killing Griffith means killing his son. But on another level, who cares if we see Griffith with a full moon. The theory isn't really contingent on Griffith transforming every full moon.  Only that it's his only opportunity to do so. Since Femto's been incarnated in the boys body, how many full moons have there been in world where we don't see the moonlight boy appear? Plenty. Guts was protecting Casca alone for what appears to be weeks after the Hill of Swords and after the rest of the group showed up, it's implied that they've been traveling together for what appears to be months. Perhaps there's another factor to consider as to why the boy appears some times and not others.

Of course. All of this is part of why this episode's final panels don't impact the theory much.

Perhaps it's tied to his parents being in grave danger. Perhaps somehow it's tied to Guts wearing the berserker armor and giving off a new Od, as it only started to occur after this point.

It's possible, although it's worth noting that when the boy first appeared, his parents weren't in immediate danger. It only came later on during the night.

On a side note, after re-reading this episode, I'm going to double down on my assertion that Rakshas isn't doing much for a long time. After the snakes and rats get on him, Silat, Daiba, and Rickert hold a full conversation for pages before they hop on the Garuda. I know it was mentioned that this was supposed to take place really quickly, but it sure doesn't appear that way. Maybe I'm missing something in the translation though.

I don't know what more there is to add to my earlier reply to you. There are three pages of dialog when Daiba appears, but it's pretty short talk and I think the pages convey a sense of urgency. Plus at that point, Rakshas looks more curious than anything. Then Daiba unleashes all he has, and after that they're quickly gone, in three more pages. And Rakshas gets after them pretty much immediately.

A question (maybe answered) : You explain, rats and snakes distract Rakshas, Just distract or afraid Rakshas ? It's not easy to see in the picture if the animals "tickle" Rakshas or enter inside his blacksuit ...

I already answered that question earlier on. They provide a distraction but more importantly restrain his movements by coiling around his body and various appendages (while the rats nibble at it I guess). (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14816.msg237355#msg237355)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Mage on October 24, 2015, 05:25:40 PM
I had always hoped Silat would eventually ally with Guts (which may still end up happening), but allying with Rickert and Daiba and then traveling back to their homeland is really exciting.

Something I only mention in case people have missed it, but Erika's the one who stops to go get the rocket launcher from the wagon. Clever girl.

For all her amusing moments of panic, she's been courageous with all the the things she's seen and gone through. I imagine she will become much more complementary to Rickert in the future. Looking forward to seeing how capable of a character she turns into.

 
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 24, 2015, 05:58:01 PM
For all her amusing moments of panic, she's been courageous with all the the things she's seen and gone through. I imagine she will become much more complementary to Rickert in the future. Looking forward to seeing how capable of a character she turns into.

Yeah I think she's pretty badass all things considered.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Mangetsu on October 24, 2015, 07:57:35 PM
I really like what Rickert has done with his new invention, it's somewhat a combination of most of the stuff that he has built before.
He has been a badass this whole section, from slapping Griffith :rickert: to using his own rocket launcher on Rakshas.

That last page of Griffith staring at the whole scenario is really fascinating to me. Again not seeing his facial expression makes it just more mysterious. Just like in episode 338,  when we only got to see the lower part of his face, not really telling much to the reader.

I hope that at the beginning of the next episode,  we will see a short closure to Rakshas failure in assassinating Rickert. It would be nice to see his final thoughts.

Can't wait to see Guts and the others. Monthly Berserk is too good  :badbone:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 25, 2015, 08:13:13 AM
I have considered that possibility before (Femto being "ousted" from the body for a time), but I find it hard to reconcile with the panel of the boy's astral form in episode 327 (http://aazealh.net/Divers/MoonlightBoy-Astral.jpg). Beyond that, there's also a certain coldness to his demeanor that I feel connects him to Griffith. Still, like I said before, this is the one part we really don't have any clues about, so... could be.

Yeah, the way he stares and doesn't completely seem to connect with everyone gives him an alieness like Griffith, though the astral appearance in 327 is interesting because it's almost too coincidental. It makes one associate him even more with Griffith, but beyond that there's not a clear reason his astral form should have some aspect of Griffith in it beyond coincidental resemblance. It's actually problematic as we're discussing, but yet there it is. I wonder if it's just purely a signal to the audience with no practical explanation like Griffith's od being mixed with the boy's, or does it mean the boy can completely suppress and contain his evil? That'd be a pretty big deal.

However, how does that explain the fact Casca is actually the one who comes to find the boy everytime?

Both on the beach and on the island, she came to him as soon as he appeared... Feeling him in her Brand, like she's always done since he was born. And how did he travel to the beach before the World-Spiral Tree (that stands right next to Falconia and that Femto made happen) came to be? And then it means Zodd was just there as a coincidence, and didn't act because...? I think her interpretation just has too many inconsistencies. And while the idea that the King of the Flower Storm could act like a catalyst in the appearance of the boy is interesting, I feel like it's not directly supported by what she says in those pages because she doesn't account for the Griffith factor.

Not directly, no, but a lot of what we know about the boy is indirect and deciphered by reading into things unseen (almost by the forces they exert and that are exerted on them in the story; it's the equivalent of studying distant galaxies in Berserk theory terms =). And, though it's admittedly even more theoretical beyond just details, the Flower King (:ganishka:) aiding/enabling the child would answer those questions while incorporating Schierke's stated theory, which isn't a bad angle to consider, especially since we have to parse and reinterpret her information either way.

First off, I do believe it serves as a bit of a diversion regarding the boy, if only because the careful reader will have had a clue about him for quite a while by then.

But what if THAT was the diversion, maaaahn!? :magni:

(http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/voiceactors/2/18467.jpg)
"They were just ROCKS, Aaz!!" (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Sound_File2.gif)
 (http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/ganonlaugh.wav)

I think you'd become an assassin at that point! :rakshas: Seriously though, it's going to take a lot more than Schierke's theory to credibly suggest everything we observed before is just a coincidence.

Fourth, I think Schierke's mistake here provides a good reason for them to ask the king about the boy directly, and for him to lay down the truth (or part of it) in return.

Ding ding ding ding! Why Schierke Said That for 400, Alex. Love it, and I wouldn't mind either if the King of the Flower Storm was something of an oddball.

I completely agree. It is a clue, even if it doesn't help us much. I actually find it very interesting how it's done too, with Griffith looking in that direction but the reader not being able to tell what it is he's looking at exactly. And the escapees, the moon and the tree branches all being in the same frame... I don't believe Miura did that by coincidence.

To bring it full circle on the question of their ods and add a little more speculation... would Griffith let them go under other circumstances, or was it a bad case of moonlight boy toxoplasmosis (https://en.wikipedia.ornd /wiki/Toxoplasmosis) affecting him? It makes sense that the boy could interfere with and influence Griffith beyond his body (we've really already seen it). Can the boy fundamentally soften Griffith and his evil, even stifle it as the boy might be doing when he's out in the moonlight? Is the boy a weakness, or potentially a redeemer? ... That's right, this has all been building to another Griffith "Griffith Redemption" theory! (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Sound_File2.gif)
 (http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/ganonlaugh.wav)

I do resent it a bit... I don't have time for this stuff anymore! :ganishka:

Well, I tried to make it easy on you (and myself =) this time by doing the normal thing and not addressing what I accept, agree with, or otherwise don't have a comment for. It doesn't seem to have helped much, at least me, as I'm still writing at 2am with a 9am podcast call looming...

Ganishka is a completely different case

I'd be curious to hear your take on its relevancy overall, but I guess I just did. =) I do think he definitely added something unique to the astral canon that may apply here, and that was even before he changed it and made the impossible possible.

It's possible, although it's worth noting that when the boy first appeared, his parents weren't in immediate danger. It only came later on during the night.
Time-transgressive fate deciphering if I ever heard it, man! :void: :idea:

Good point though, unless the boy knew what was coming, he doesn't just show up when they're in danger (much as they're often in danger yet he doesn't appear, though the moon is obviously a paramount factor there). Here's hoping when we switch back to Guts' perspective we get a sighting of the boy that directly ties him to Griffith here, though just his appearing again consecutively with the full moon would be telling. Will he do it every full moon? Would he appear in Elfhelm? Would that show Griffith where it was to attack? :ganishka:

I had always hoped Silat would eventually ally with Guts (which may still end up happening), but allying with Rickert and Daiba and then traveling back to their homeland is really exciting.

And it certainly paves the way for an alliance with Guts as well, so all the more exciting on that front.

I hope that at the beginning of the next episode,  we will see a short closure to Rakshas failure in assassinating Rickert. It would be nice to see his final thoughts.

It would be cool to see the aftermath, especially citywide, but typically we don't get to see the character debriefing, if at all, until at least the next time... when the other Apostle lieutenants will be busting his balls for getting blown out of the sky by a gawky teenager. :zodd:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 25, 2015, 11:28:53 AM
Yeah, the way he stares and doesn't completely seem to connect with everyone gives him an alieness like Griffith, though the astral appearance in 327 is interesting because it's almost too coincidental. It makes one associate him even more with Griffith, but beyond that there's not a clear reason his astral form should have some aspect of Griffith in it beyond coincidental resemblance. It's actually problematic as we're discussing, but yet there it is. I wonder if it's just purely a signal to the audience with no practical explanation like Griffith's od being mixed with the boy's, or does it mean the boy can completely suppress and contain his evil? That'd be a pretty big deal.

It could be interpreted a few different ways. Pushing our theoretical knowledge of the Berserk world to its limits, it's not impossible that two souls could share more than a corporeal body, with the boy's body of light reflecting that. Since the evil is bound to the soul, it could work. More vaguely, it's also possible that at some point the boy took something from Griffith on the astral level, which would explain his "superior being" status and also that fleeting resemblance at that specific moment. Either way I don't think Miura left it there merely as a visual clue. To me it's a hint that they're pretty deeply connected.

Not directly, no, but a lot of what we know about the boy is indirect and deciphered by reading into things unseen (almost by the forces they exert and that are exerted on them in the story; it's the equivalent of studying distant galaxies in Berserk theory terms =).

Actually, I think that comparison is most appropriate for the Idea of Evil. :idea:

I wouldn't mind either if the King of the Flower Storm was something of an oddball.

By virtue of being an elf, I can't believe he won't be in a way or another. I know I've said it before but man, we're living exciting times.

To bring it full circle on the question of their ods and add a little more speculation... would Griffith let them go under other circumstances, or was it a bad case of moonlight boy toxoplasmosis (https://en.wikipedia.ornd /wiki/Toxoplasmosis) affecting him? It makes sense that the boy could interfere with and influence Griffith beyond his body (we've really already seen it). Can the boy fundamentally soften Griffith and his evil, even stifle it as the boy might be doing when he's out in the moonlight? Is the boy a weakness, or potentially a redeemer? ... That's right, this has all been building to another Griffith "Griffith Redemption" theory! (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Sound_File2.gif) (http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/ganonlaugh.wav)

Hahaha, no way Griffith will be redeemed. Unless... :iva: Anyway, if we disregard an influence from the boy, I think it could be a case of him just being a passive observer (like he was after the slap). That could work whether he ordered the hit or not (personally I still lean towards him not ordering it for a variety of reasons). Now if the boy is involved, I don't see it being a case similar to what he did in volume 22. The kid seems to just be concerned with his parents, or at least that seems to be the one thing strong enough to make him act. It could however be that Griffith is otherwise preoccupied with the full moon.

As for whether the boy's influence could lead to deeper changes within Griffith himself... Definitely possible but too early to be sure (and to determine in what way) I think. However it's still as clear to me as it was 9 years ago that he will be the key to Griffith's downfall.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Smith on October 25, 2015, 04:11:10 PM
Thanks Aaz for the scan and explanation. As usual every new episode is just too awesome to express in word.



I was wondering though, if they are really out of danger. Judging from the last panel they are still within Falconia.


And I am just curious regarding Rakasha intention of using his claws, from what I can see his brute strength could easily rip a horse apart, I wonder why is there a need for claws to split erica's body.


Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 25, 2015, 04:21:00 PM
I was wondering though, if they are really out of danger. Judging from the last panel they are still within Falconia.

Actually they just passed the outer walls on the last page... And they put a stop to Rakshas' pursuit, so yeah they're out of danger. No one else is after them.

And I am just curious regarding Rakasha intention of using his claws, from what I can see his brute strength could easily rip a horse apart, I wonder why is there a need for claws to split erica's body.

He used his claws to cut the horse apart as well.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Delta Phi on October 25, 2015, 04:21:36 PM
And I am just curious regarding Rakasha intention of using his claws, from what I can see his brute strength could easily rip a horse apart, I wonder why is there a need for claws to split erica's body.

Look again. Rakshas uses a second set of arms which are sharply pointed to help split the horse in two. He doesn't just pull it apart. Seems like a simple question with a simple answer: He just wants to easily (and precisely) cut Erika open to use her blood. Not to mention it adds tension to the narrative with those claws hovering closely over her.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on October 26, 2015, 07:26:23 PM
It could be interpreted a few different ways. Pushing our theoretical knowledge of the Berserk world to its limits, it's not impossible that two souls could share more than a corporeal body, with the boy's body of light reflecting that. Since the evil is bound to the soul, it could work. More vaguely, it's also possible that at some point the boy took something from Griffith on the astral level, which would explain his "superior being" status and also that fleeting resemblance at that specific moment. Either way I don't think Miura left it there merely as a visual clue. To me it's a hint that they're pretty deeply connected.

Yeah, I think that’s the most obvious indication (there’s a little Griff in there! =) and was from the get go, I’m just contorting it around different theories concerning how that could work practically between the boy and Griffith and what the physical consequences of that union could be, or why there aren’t more. Unfortunately, since all of that is rather vague as you say, there’s not a very satisfying conclusion other than they’re combined somehow (which is intriguing enough by itself).

Actually, I think that comparison is most appropriate for the Idea of Evil.
this just has me geeked for the King himself, the only comparable force sounds like... :idea:

I'm glad you think so too, we should talk about THAT more! Or has this been enough conjecture about the unknowable? Anyway, the notion of an antithesis of the Idea of Evil is probably about as old as the Idea of Evil, but we actually have a decent candidate now. I can’t help but imagine the Flower King as a more passive influence though, more a helpful guide than a puppeteer.

Hahaha, no way Griffith will be redeemed. Unless... :iva:

Oh, it’s happening, one way, or another. :femto:

Actually, if not anything so overt as redemption, at least the character is being engaged with these issues again with the promise of more to come. As we’ve said in the past, Griffith had been rather above it all since the Hill of Swords, until Rickert slapped him back down to earth.

Anyway, if we disregard an influence from the boy, I think it could be a case of him just being a passive observer (like he was after the slap). That could work whether he ordered the hit or not (personally I still lean towards him not ordering it for a variety of reasons). Now if the boy is involved, I don't see it being a case similar to what he did in volume 22. The kid seems to just be concerned with his parents, or at least that seems to be the one thing strong enough to make him act. As for whether the boy's influence could lead to deeper changes within Griffith himself... Definitely possible but too early to be sure (and to determine in what way) I think.

Yeah, I just wonder how far that benevolence may extend. Aside from potentially wresting control from Griffith to help his parents (and beyond even those that affect them), can the child also act merely as a better angel or “good” influence (as we initially assumed when he first saved Casca). As we’ve, and even Griffith, said, it could be like a conscience he’s not supposed to have. Which…

However it's still as clear to me as it was 9 years ago that he will be the key to Griffith's downfall.

Yeah, at least as far as being an all-powerful God on Earth is concerned. Though, is that more important than the power of… friendship? :griffnotevil:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 26, 2015, 08:58:18 PM
I'm glad you think so too, we should talk about THAT more! Or has this been enough conjecture about the unknowable? Anyway, the notion of an antithesis of the Idea of Evil is probably about as old as the Idea of Evil, but we actually have a decent candidate now. I can’t help but imagine the Flower King as a more passive influence though, more a helpful guide than a puppeteer.

Well I just meant that the metaphor of distant astronomical bodies being observed through the forces they exert is, to me, more fitting for the Idea of Evil, not that I think the Boy (or the King of the Flower Storm) is a comparable force to it. While there's no doubt the Elf King is very powerful, I don't think it will be directly comparable. However I'm beyond curious to hear his take on the God Hand and the Idea of Evil.

Actually, if not anything so overt as redemption, at least the character is being engaged with these issues again with the promise of more to come. As we’ve said in the past, Griffith had been rather above it all since the Hill of Swords, until Rickert slapped him back down to earth.

Yep. I honestly think the way Miura went about this is pure genius. It manages to make Griffith ambiguous without compromising Femto's character, and gives him a vulnerability only Guts (and Casca) can exploit while also making it an exceptionally difficult choice for them to actually kill him, even if they get the chance. The Rickert relationship is just another layer on top of that which adds even more depth by cutting through the fairytale bullshit to hold him accountable for his actions, in a way he can't disregard like he does when those he sacrificed do it.

Yeah, at least as far as being an all-powerful God on Earth is concerned. Though, is that more important than the power of… friendship? :griffnotevil:

(http://skullknight.net/images/gutsbarf.gif)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on October 27, 2015, 01:08:04 PM
I know some people are skeptical about the Griffith-Moonlight connection after reading this episode but for me the final scene adds clarity. We know Griffith is not some sort of werechild that instantly transforms at each full moon. I assume the moon has been out long enough for said transformation to occur if this was the case. However, the final scene does make me wonder just how much control Griffith actual relinquishes or involuntarily gives to the child. As we have seen the child has the ability to temporarily control Griffiths actions if only to protect his parents. The questions that remain for me are to what extent is that control magnified by the full moon? Is griffith completely vulnerable during this occurence? It would certainly explain the need for his army when Griffith himself has shown very little need for protection. However, the more intriguing question to ask is what counter measures have Griffith taken to protect himself. We already know he is aware of the childs influence but could he actually be relinquishing control to gain an advantage. The fact that the child does not omit any evil could be useful to Griffith if he intended on destroying elfhelm. Perhaps he is trying to find a way to rid himself of the childs influence all together. For every bit of clarity given to us throughout this story a 100 more questions arise.  :???:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Lithrael on October 27, 2015, 01:19:29 PM
You know, for that matter, IF Griffith is in any way diminished while the moonlight kid is out doing his thing, Rakshas probably knows about it by now, and may have been intentionally trying to take advantage of that to 'get away' with doing something Griffith might not have approved of.  Or, Rakshas might have thought that Rickert was getting a pass because of the moonlight kid's sentimental influence, and figured that without it, Griffith wouldn't disapprove of his attack.  Or I could be totally wrong and Rakshas just figured Griff wouldn't mind anyway or even if he did, shut up, I'm Rakshas, I do what I want.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: DarkAdin on October 27, 2015, 06:46:00 PM
You know, for that matter, IF Griffith is in any way diminished while the moonlight kid is out doing his thing, Rakshas probably knows about it by now, and may have been intentionally trying to take advantage of that to 'get away' with doing something Griffith might not have approved of.  Or, Rakshas might have thought that Rickert was getting a pass because of the moonlight kid's sentimental influence, and figured that without it, Griffith wouldn't disapprove of his attack.  Or I could be totally wrong and Rakshas just figured Griff wouldn't mind anyway or even if he did, shut up, I'm Rakshas, I do what I want.
Nice view. But I think it's too soon for pretty much anyone to discover that feature on Griffith.

Now comes the question: what is the moonlight boy capable of? Either if he takes control of Griffith's body or goes by himself, what is to expect from him? His feelings could become sometime (I'm speculating here) a weakness to Griffith alright. But how further could this vessel go?
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 27, 2015, 07:47:32 PM
The questions that remain for me are to what extent is that control magnified by the full moon? Is griffith completely vulnerable during this occurence? It would certainly explain the need for his army when Griffith himself has shown very little need for protection.

I don't think the fact Griffith has an army at his command is at all related with the vulnerability the boy might pose to him. As for how vulnerable he is during a full moon... Hard to say at this point. Probably very? I mean that is when the boy appears, and I think you will agree that it is most likely done at Griffith's expense.

However, the more intriguing question to ask is what counter measures have Griffith taken to protect himself. We already know he is aware of the childs influence but could he actually be relinquishing control to gain an advantage. The fact that the child does not omit any evil could be useful to Griffith if he intended on destroying elfhelm. Perhaps he is trying to find a way to rid himself of the childs influence all together. For every bit of clarity given to us throughout this story a 100 more questions arise.  :???:

That's a lot of speculation going on all at once! First off, as far as we know, no "counter-measures" have been devised so far. In fact we don't know if that is at all possible. Second, it's possible he could be taking advantage of the boy's desire to see his parents, but isn't that too convoluted? Griffith had no problem finding Flora, so why would he need to infiltrate Guts' group like that to get to Elfhelm? And from what we saw in volume 22, Griffith wasn't the one in control when it came to the boy and his parents. Third, about ridding himself of the boy's influence, the problem is that he's using his body. I bet he would want to, but can he? That's the big question. If it didn't happen during the Incarnation, it's bound to be a hard problem to solve.

On a side note, let me reiterate that I think people should be wary of drawing conclusions too hastily based on that last panel. There might be more going on there that meets the eye.

You know, for that matter, IF Griffith is in any way diminished while the moonlight kid is out doing his thing, Rakshas probably knows about it by now, and may have been intentionally trying to take advantage of that to 'get away' with doing something Griffith might not have approved of.

Hehe indeed, I believe I ventured a similar guess in the Episode 340 thread. That being said, I would expect Griffith to learn about it eventually, one way or another.

Now comes the question: what is the moonlight boy capable of? Either if he takes control of Griffith's body or goes by himself, what is to expect from him? His feelings could become sometime (I'm speculating here) a weakness to Griffith alright. But how further could this vessel go?

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "How further could this vessel go?" :???:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on October 27, 2015, 11:14:51 PM
I don't think the fact Griffith has an army at his command is at all related with the vulnerability the boy might pose to him. As for how vulnerable he is during a full moon... Hard to say at this point. Probably very? I mean that is when the boy appears, and I think you will agree that it is most likely done at Griffith's expense.

That's a lot of speculation going on all at once! First off, as far as we know, no "counter-measures" have been devised so far. In fact we don't know if that is at all possible. Second, it's possible he could be taking advantage of the boy's desire to see his parents, but isn't that too convoluted? Griffith had no problem finding Flora, so why would he need to infiltrate Guts' group like that to get to Elfhelm? And from what we saw in volume 22, Griffith wasn't the one in control when it came to the boy and his parents. Third, about ridding himself of the boy's influence, the problem is that he's using his body. I bet he would want to, but can he? That's the big question. If it didn't happen during the Incarnation, it's bound to be a hard problem to solve.

On a side note, let me reiterate that I think people should be wary of drawing conclusions too hastily based on that last panel. There might be more going on there that meets the eye.

I was not trying to say that Griffith assembled an army of apostles and now humans for the sole purpose of protection but simply that he has shown little to no vulnerablity that would make any such protection necessary. Furthermore, if Griffith could make use of the helix tree it would be hard to envision him needing any support at all. Griffiths motives are still very much in question. He has seemingly accomplished all that he has ever desired so as far as we know he is simply fortifying his empire. However, the one glaring vulnerability that has appeared his the childs influence over his body, confirmed when he was made to save Casca. The reason for the speculations is that from what we have seen from Griffith in the past he has never been the type to sit back and accept a problem as potentially devastating as this. There have been no signs of any counter measures being set into motion but I can gurantee that if there is an advantage or defense to be taken Griffith has already contemplated a plan. As far as why he would need the child to infulitrate elfhelm he may need someone who is not tainted by evil to get close. Something tells me that if a goon squad of apostles made its way to elfhelm it would not go unnoticed. Also assuming some of the keys to destroying griffith will be found on the island Griffith would certainly be interesting in knowing whats going on being that magical beings are the only threat he seems to acknowledge. That being said of course it is all speculation and until we see for ourselves this will just be a big game of clue.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Tripas on October 28, 2015, 09:55:43 AM
And from what we saw in volume 22, Griffith wasn't the one in control when it came to the boy and his parents.

Can we say this with absolute certainty? I won't deny the facts, of course, but I don't completely buy the Griffith/child inner division that even Femto establishes. Time will say, but from what we've seen for now, it seems that the boy isn't only taking control at certain times, but also springing Femto's own emotions to a certain extent.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: DarkAdin on October 28, 2015, 02:43:08 PM
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "How further could this vessel go?" :???:

Sorry, I'm not as used as I would like to be to expressing myself in these terms in English. By "vessel" I meant the child himself.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 28, 2015, 04:38:02 PM
I was not trying to say that Griffith assembled an army of apostles and now humans for the sole purpose of protection but simply that he has shown little to no vulnerablity that would make any such protection necessary.

Well you said it would explain the need for his army. I disagree. Griffith needs an army because he's not going to go kill each of his enemies himself.

Furthermore, if Griffith could make use of the helix tree it would be hard to envision him needing any support at all. Griffiths motives are still very much in question.

What's certain is that his motives aren't to rule alone over an empty land, devoid of any life. You're really coming at this the wrong way if you think Griffith logically has no need for people. As a member of the God Hand, the one thing we know for sure is that his motives involve manipulating mankind.

He has seemingly accomplished all that he has ever desired so as far as we know he is simply fortifying his empire.

I think it's pretty clear that Griffith's goals are not quite what they used to be during the Golden Age arc. It would be myopic to believe that simply getting to rule a kingdom was his end goal, and that the advent of Fantasia was but a side effect of it.

The reason for the speculations is that from what we have seen from Griffith in the past he has never been the type to sit back and accept a problem as potentially devastating as this. There have been no signs of any counter measures being set into motion but I can gurantee that if there is an advantage or defense to be taken Griffith has already contemplated a plan.

Forgive me for saying so, but that's not a very hard conclusion to reach. However we haven't gotten any clues pointing in that direction so far.

As far as why he would need the child to infulitrate elfhelm he may need someone who is not tainted by evil to get close. Something tells me that if a goon squad of apostles made its way to elfhelm it would not go unnoticed. Also assuming some of the keys to destroying griffith will be found on the island Griffith would certainly be interesting in knowing whats going on being that magical beings are the only threat he seems to acknowledge.

I don't believe in an apostle squad attacking Elfhelm and I never did for a variety of reasons, however I'm also not sure a member of the God Hand would need to go to such lengths to infiltrate the place. More importantly, that would imply he planned the whole thing far in advance and has been in control the whole time, which is not at all how it looks in the story so far. Besides, I don't believe the boy will be inconspicuous if he manifests himself in Elfhelm.

Can we say this with absolute certainty?

Well, yes... yes we can.

I won't deny the facts, of course, but I don't completely buy the Griffith/child inner division that even Femto establishes. Time will say, but from what we've seen for now, it seems that the boy isn't only taking control at certain times, but also springing Femto's own emotions to a certain extent.

Seems to me that not buying something Griffith establishes about himself is kind of denying the facts. And I don't believe we've seen anything that implies the boy is "springing" Femto's emotions. That's not to say it's impossible for the boy's influence to ever become more wide-ranging, but we haven't seen anything that can lead us to believe it has been the case so far.

Sorry, I'm not as used as I would like to be to expressing myself in these terms in English. By "vessel" I meant the child himself.

Ok but I still don't understand the question. How further would the boy go... in what regard? His influence on Griffith? Because I think showing up in person to help his parents is already quite far along...
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: DarkAdin on October 28, 2015, 06:40:25 PM
Ok but I still don't understand the question. How further would the boy go... in what regard? His influence on Griffith? Because I think showing up in person to help his parents is already quite far along...
Yeah, that's quite far. Personally I don't think it's gonna be just that. I see more potential in the child, hence my question. More potential in his influence on Griffith, more potential in showing up again in person, even more potential in causing major plot twists derived from that in the future. But that's just me I guess.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 28, 2015, 07:12:16 PM
Yeah, that's quite far. Personally I don't think it's gonna be just that. I see more potential in the child, hence my question. More potential in his influence on Griffith, more potential in showing up again in person, even more potential in causing major plot twists derived from that in the future. But that's just me I guess.

Uh well yeah, the boy will show up again. Was that ever in question? :schierke: And he'll be central to major plot developments in the future too. We've known this for a decade.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Tripas on October 28, 2015, 10:25:22 PM
Seems to me that not buying something Griffith establishes about himself is kind of denying the facts. And I don't believe we've seen anything that implies the boy is "springing" Femto's emotions. That's not to say it's impossible for the boy's influence to ever become more wide-ranging, but we haven't seen anything that can lead us to believe it has been the case so far.

I'm not roundly denying it, but questioning to a certain degree Griffith's theory. Because that's what it is. When he is watching the fight between Guts and Zodd, he thinks that his feelings at that point were the child's and not his. But he doesn't say it as a fact (could I have read a wrong translation...?). I don't think Griffith understood the entire nature of his connection then, and maybe he even doesn't by now.

Like you say, there are no certain clues that can lead us to believe this (the reunion at the Hill of Swords and his meeting with Rickert at Falconia are the only ones we have for now), but I like to be open minded with the Griffith/child relationship. I have one thing clear and it's that Miura won't reduce it to a "mere" fight for the control of the body, at least in terms of how it will happen.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on October 29, 2015, 12:02:31 AM
Clearly it is far to soon to say what measure Griffith will take to protect himself from the child or use him to his advantage so for the sake of the topic I will save further discussion for later episodes.
Another subject that has me curious is the motives of our stealthy friend.  :rakshas: We know he wanted to kill poor Rickert because he slapped the face Rakshas has been obsessing over since Griffiths return. But how far is he willing to take it now that the group has fleed and will likely soon be well fortified? Is he really that hell bent on revenge that he would take a leave of absence to infilitrate the hide out and kill Rickert? And if so what new tricks might we get to see. We already know he can fly, split a horse in half with little effort and survive being blasted with a flame thrower and rocket launcher. Very curious to see what more he is capable of. Same with Rickert. Im waiting for him to invent the first minigun or perhaps flash grenades since Rakshas seems to not like direct contact with light. All the waiting is certainly paying off in a big way.  :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 29, 2015, 08:49:00 PM
I'm not roundly denying it, but questioning to a certain degree Griffith's theory. Because that's what it is. When he is watching the fight between Guts and Zodd, he thinks that his feelings at that point were the child's and not his. But he doesn't say it as a fact (could I have read a wrong traduction...?).

Yes, I do believe you have read a wrong translation. Those feelings belong to the boy, the scene makes it quite clear.

Another subject that has me curious is the motives of our stealthy friend.  :rakshas: We know he wanted to kill poor Rickert because he slapped the face Rakshas has been obsessing over since Griffiths return. But how far is he willing to take it now that the group has fleed and will likely soon be well fortified? Is he really that hell bent on revenge that he would take a leave of absence to infilitrate the hide out and kill Rickert? And if so what new tricks might we get to see. We already know he can fly, split a horse in half with little effort and survive being blasted with a flame thrower and rocket launcher. Very curious to see what more he is capable of. Same with Rickert. Im waiting for him to invent the first minigun or perhaps flash grenades since Rakshas seems to not like direct contact with light. All the waiting is certainly paying off in a big way.  :guts:

Just to clarify, we don't know for sure why Rakshas went after Rickert. That it was because he "sullied" Griffith's face is just a guess for now (although it's my favorite hypothesis). Anyway, I'd say things have gotten more personal than that now, since he's been repeatedly foiled by this newly formed team. Like I've said in the past, I definitely expect them to face each other again eventually. And him going after them in their hideout would even the fight out and make it all the more riveting. As for what we'll see then... Super cool stuff from both sides, no doubt. :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: MrFlibble on October 29, 2015, 09:25:09 PM
If the Moon Child is Griffith, Griffith and the apostles are taking a tremendous risk by keeping him unsupervised with Guts. There's not only the risk the child might be killed by pirates/monsters/sea gods but also that Guts may find out the identity of the child and exploit Griffith's weakness.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 29, 2015, 09:42:39 PM
If the Moon Child is Griffith, Griffith and the apostles are taking a tremendous risk by keeping him unsupervised with Guts. There's not only the risk the child might be killed by pirates/monsters/sea gods but also that Guts may find out the identity of the child and exploit Griffith's weakness.

The idea is that Griffith probably has no choice. And the boy seems more than capable of dealing with whatever comes his way.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Tripas on October 29, 2015, 10:55:40 PM
Yes, I do believe you have read a wrong translation. Those feelings belong to the boy, the scene makes it quite clear.

I have read the translation of this site and it's the same of my volume. The thing is that Griffith is questioning about it, not stating it. It's very clear for us that those feelings belong to the boy, but... we don't know if all of them come form the boy. Maybe Griffith is not only discovering the problems with the vessel, but also trying to give a convenient explanation to something he doesn't understand.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on October 29, 2015, 11:36:22 PM
If I remember correctly one of the reasons Aaz connectes the moonlight child to Griffith was the idea that the moonlight child might not have been completely unsupervised.  :zodd:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 30, 2015, 06:21:32 AM
I have read the translation of this site and it's the same of my volume. The thing is that Griffith is questioning about it, not stating it.

There is no proper translation of volume 22 on this website. The one from Eirias is full of errors. Let me assure you, again, that there is no doubt about the fact those are the boy's feelings. The text and the artwork make it clear.

It's very clear for us that those feelings belong to the boy, but... we don't know if all of them come form the boy. Maybe Griffith is not only discovering the problems with the vessel, but also trying to give a convenient explanation to something he doesn't understand.

Yes, we do know. You don't have a leg to stand on here. Clinging to misconceptions will only be more disappointing for you down the line.

If I remember correctly one of the reasons Aaz connectes the moonlight child to Griffith was the idea that the moonlight child might not have been completely unsupervised.  :zodd:

The fact Zodd was overlooking the initial meet up between the boy and Guts' group (which there is no doubt about, by the way) was indeed what originally clued me in as to what was going on. However I had already tied the Moonlight Boy to the Demon Child before that. And we already knew that the Demon Child was connected to Griffith from previous events. It just allowed me to reconcile the fact the boy was shown as still existing within Griffith and yet also as his own new "superior" being.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Tripas on October 30, 2015, 10:37:32 AM
Yes, we do know. You don't have a leg to stand on here. Clinging to misconceptions will only be more disappointing for you down the line.

Oh no, don't worry, I have things very clear and nothing Miura puts on the table will be disappointing. I just enjoy playing with these factors, but it isn't like I'm desperately clinging to them.

The child has shown a Griffith-esque behavior and even his astral body looks like him, all of this due to his connection with Femto. What about Griffith's own persona? How do we know a small part of him wasn't excited seeing Guts fighting Zodd? Can you completely affirm that Griffith hasn't been affected by the boy besides the known problems with the vessel? Maybe he hasn't and I will have to shut my mouth in the future. :ganishka:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Rhombaad on October 30, 2015, 04:06:18 PM
The child has shown a Griffith-esque behavior and even his astral body looks like him, all of this due to his connection with Femto. What about Griffith's own persona? How do we know a small part of him wasn't excited seeing Guts fighting Zodd? Can you completely affirm that Griffith hasn't been affected by the boy besides the known problems with the vessel? Maybe he hasn't and I will have to shut my mouth in the future. :ganishka:

Griffith himself says that he feels nothing when he sees Guts on the Hill of Swords. The very reason he went there was to confirm that his feelings were dead.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 30, 2015, 07:32:22 PM
The child has shown a Griffith-esque behavior and even his astral body looks like him, all of this due to his connection with Femto.

The boy's looks are inexpressive, and in that regard he can be said to be reminiscent of Griffith. His behavior however is his own, that of a young boy towards his parents.

What about Griffith's own persona? How do we know a small part of him wasn't excited seeing Guts fighting Zodd? Can you completely affirm that Griffith hasn't been affected by the boy besides the known problems with the vessel?

How do we know Berserk isn't all just a dream? Guts is really just napping by his campfire in page one of volume one, and will wake up covered in dew when morning comes, resuming his simple life as a lumberjack from a small, uneventful village. Can you completely affirm that isn't the case? Can you?!

This is how you come across. The same way arguments that revolve about a remote possibility not being 100% impossible always have and always will.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Tama on October 30, 2015, 10:23:37 PM
I was wondering, who do you think the final battle with Rakshas will be with? Do you think it will be a combination of Guts and crew or just the Bakiraka? It would seem more fitting if Silat defeats him. I know it's far away but I was curious what everyone thought.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: IncantatioN on October 30, 2015, 11:35:14 PM
Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue

(http://i.imgur.com/Ck3Lr63.jpg?2)
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Tripas on October 31, 2015, 12:16:47 AM
The boy's looks are inexpressive, and in that regard he can be said to be reminiscent of Griffith. His behavior however is his own, that of a young boy towards his parents.

That's why I didn't say his behavior is Griffith's. Like you said is reminiscent to him. Even Guts points out his "coldness". Beside that little detail, yeah, the child is just curious and wants to play and be with his parents, like any other... well, superior being.

How do we know Berserk isn't all just a dream? Guts is really just napping by his campfire in page one of volume one, and will wake up covered in dew when morning comes, resuming his simple life as a lumberjack from a small, uneventful village. Can you completely affirm that isn't the case? Can you?!

This is how you come across. The same way arguments that revolve about a remote possibility not being 100% impossible always have and always will.

Good point, sir. But you have extremely dramatized it, since I'm only taking into accout two factors, not an infinite amount of posibilities. It's not a theory due to the lack of enough clues but it isn't just an arbitrary "what if".

I was wondering, who do you think the final battle with Rakshas will be with? Do you think it will be a combination of Guts and crew or just the Bakiraka? It would seem more fitting if Silat defeats him. I know it's far away but I was curious what everyone thought.

Silat and the Bakiraka deserve such a privilege. Besides, it would be kind of a waste if, after all the development they have had together, they are not at least face to face before Rakshas' defeat.

Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue

(http://i.imgur.com/Ck3Lr63.jpg?2)

I can't wait. :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Mangetsu on October 31, 2015, 12:25:43 AM
I was wondering, who do you think the final battle with Rakshas will be with? Do you think it will be a combination of Guts and crew or just the Bakiraka? It would seem more fitting if Silat defeats him. I know it's far away but I was curious what everyone thought.

Definetely Silat and the Tapasa. We have this build up since Volume 22. They also had an encounter in volume 27, but the last one really showed how much Silat and the Tapasa were able to do against Rakshas, hence Rakshas commented on Silats growth.

Im sure by the time they battle Rakshas again ,Silat will have grown even more and probably even get some great updates on his equipment, because of Rickert.

Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue

(http://i.imgur.com/Ck3Lr63.jpg?2)

 :isidro: Thank you man
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on October 31, 2015, 03:58:36 AM
That's why I didn't say his behavior is Griffith's.

Uh huh. :schierke:

Good point, sir. But you have extremely dramatized it, since I'm only taking into accout two factors, not an infinite amount of posibilities. It's not a theory due to the lack of enough clues but it isn't just an arbitrary "what if".

I've dramatized it because this exchange has been excessively laborious and sterile as far as I'm concerned.

Here's the snippet from the back of this month's YA-Berserk issue

Thank you for the picture, although we can all check it in Young Animal's online edition (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14329.0). Those who bought it or even just checked the free preview would know.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Vixen Comics on November 02, 2015, 08:57:59 PM
I have no doubt in my mind that the Moon Light boy is connected to Griffith and not the elf king even if I sort of wish there was no connection Griffith and the Boy and he was indeed an avatar or some how in cahoots with the elf king. I just don't trust the boy. He may have his own personality and not have an evil aura about him but the fact that he is related to Griffith makes me worried. If The Moon Light boy can have enough consciousnesses to influence Griffith to save Casca when Griffith had no intention of doing so, whose to say that can be a two way street? When the moon light boy is out in corporal form is "in control" does that mean Griffith is along for the ride as a passive observer and can see everything the boy experiences? And maybe even more sinister, can Griffith temporally compel the moonlight boy to act against his wishes to his own ends like the demon child did when he made Griffith save Casca in volume 22? That could give Griffith an opportunity to manipulate both Guts, and especially Casca's emotions to his end. 

Quote
Can the boy fundamentally soften Griffith and his evil, even stifle it as the boy might be doing when he's out in the moonlight? Is the boy a weakness, or potentially a redeemer? ... That's right, this has all been building to another Griffith "Griffith Redemption" theory!

I really hope not. Griffith made his choices and did the unthinkable, I don't think he should get some kind of redemption even if the boy manages to make him feel regret for what he did (if that were even possible) or for Guts, Casca and company to even toy with the idea of him being redeemed.   

Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: the immortal bob on November 03, 2015, 12:26:52 PM
I have no doubt in my mind that the Moon Light boy is connected to Griffith and not the elf king even if I sort of wish there was no connection Griffith and the Boy and he was indeed an avatar or some how in cahoots with the elf king. I just don't trust the boy. He may have his own personality and not have an evil aura about him but the fact that he is related to Griffith makes me worried. If The Moon Light boy can have enough consciousnesses to influence Griffith to save Casca when Griffith had no intention of doing so, whose to say that can be a two way street? When the moon light boy is out in corporal form is "in control" does that mean Griffith is along for the ride as a passive observer and can see everything the boy experiences? And maybe even more sinister, can Griffith temporally compel the moonlight boy to act against his wishes to his own ends like the demon child did when he made Griffith save Casca in volume 22? That could give Griffith an opportunity to manipulate both Guts, and especially Casca's emotions to his end. 

I really hope not. Griffith made his choices and did the unthinkable, I don't think he should get some kind of redemption even if the boy manages to make him feel regret for what he did (if that were even possible) or for Guts, Casca and company to even toy with the idea of him being redeemed.


I feel like if Griffith was a human born corporeally on earth who became a god hand and therefore a spirtual being and then reborn into the coporeal realm.

Then if the moonlight boy is somehow the other end of that spectrum, is he a true spirtual being who is getting his first shot at the corporeal human life.

It makes me think that when the beherit apostle ate Guts and Casca's child after it gave so much energy fighting during the second eclipse after telling him he was like him and that he never got to live in this world, that somehow the child has made his way into life..


Through unexplained means.


there is still so much to be revealed, and there has been layer upon layer added.   Can't believe we are settled in for a monthly run.   


On an unrelated note, I'm interested for something to happen with Serpico soon, and to see developments Isidro.  I feel he took a big center stage in the mermaid arc, but Serpico has took a more relaxed role which makes sense given that Farnese seems at her most stable in taking care of Casca.


Lots of things coming up, interesting to reflect and wonder what Elf Island holds for Guts, and how long it will be until or if he gets any answers about what he seeks concerning Casca.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Doc on November 03, 2015, 06:41:04 PM
Been having a debate with someone recently about the Moonlight Boy. He's convinced that the boy is the Elf King or an emissary thereof. The crux of his argument rests on taking Schierke's word as gospel, and how the boy only turned up once Guts & friends started for Elfhelm. He doesn't seem to answer WHY the Elf King or one of his messengers would take the form of a mute little boy with Guts & Casca's characteristics or why it only appears during a full moon. Furthermore, what would be the point of this from a plot standpoint? The Moonlight Boy's entire character is surrounded in mystery. If it just turns out to be from Elfhelm... so what? 
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on November 03, 2015, 07:23:52 PM
Miura's comment for this issue: "I encountered Kotori Yoshio in a coffee shop."


I feel like if Griffith was a human born corporeally on earth who became a god hand and therefore a spirtual being and then reborn into the coporeal realm. Then if the moonlight boy is somehow the other end of that spectrum, is he a true spirtual being who is getting his first shot at the corporeal human life.

It makes me think that when the beherit apostle ate Guts and Casca's child after it gave so much energy fighting during the second eclipse after telling him he was like him and that he never got to live in this world, that somehow the child has made his way into life.. Through unexplained means.

You don't seem to take into account the fact Femto was incarnated into the corporeal world by taking over the boy's corporeal body. The boy was not a purely spiritual being; he had a body of flesh. The evil that had tainted him in the womb just gave him unique powers and placed him firmly in the Interstice.

On an unrelated note, I'm interested for something to happen with Serpico soon, and to see developments Isidro.  I feel he took a big center stage in the mermaid arc, but Serpico has took a more relaxed role which makes sense given that Farnese seems at her most stable in taking care of Casca.

Yes, Serpico has been somewhat aimless for a while, long before that in fact. His relevance has diminished as Farnese grew stronger and more independent. I'm sure he'll find his own way eventually though, and Elfhelm seems like the perfect place for that.

On a side note, there is no "mermaid arc". To see all episodes, chapters and arcs of the series, you can consult this handy list: http://skullknight.net/manga/ (http://skullknight.net/manga/).

Been having a debate with someone recently about the Moonlight Boy. He's convinced that the boy is the Elf King or an emissary thereof. The crux of his argument rests on taking Schierke's word as gospel, and how the boy only turned up once Guts & friends started for Elfhelm. He doesn't seem to answer WHY the Elf King or one of his messengers would take the form of a mute little boy with Guts & Casca's characteristics or why it only appears during a full moon. Furthermore, what would be the point of this from a plot standpoint?

Don't hesitate to direct that person to this thread, most of which has me lengthily arguing against that idea. :SK:
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Griffith on November 03, 2015, 11:23:22 PM
I really hope not. Griffith made his choices and did the unthinkable, I don't think he should get some kind of redemption even if the boy manages to make him feel regret for what he did (if that were even possible) or for Guts, Casca and company to even toy with the idea of him being redeemed.

But what a compelling idea, or question, it is, which only makes the story more interesting. Also, redemption is relative here, Griffith doesn't need to return to the good side of the force (though Miura is a Star Wars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNDwCsFzS8c) fan =) and be acknowledged as a "good guy" again or anything. As you point out, his character is in such disrepute with the audience that simply expressing regret would be a reclamation (and not an objectively insignificant action considering who/what he is). It probably wouldn't be a bad thing for Guts and Casca either, especially if, on his way to Hell, Griffith can somehow see to it that their child is spared (the Disney ending (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfTTiKZemow) =). Anyway, as for him simply being irredeemable for his actions, the same could be said about the Count, Rochine, or Ganishka, and though they paid the ultimate price they didn't meet altogether ignanamous, or at least unsympathetic, ends. Whatever Miura ultimately does with Griffith, I imagine it will be layered whether he finds some measure of atonement or if we've only seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the evil he's capable of.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: the immortal bob on November 04, 2015, 08:14:37 AM
Miura's comment for this issue: "I encountered Kotori Yoshio in a coffee shop."


You don't seem to take into account the fact Femto was incarnated into the corporeal world by taking over the boy's corporeal body. The boy was not a purely spiritual being; he had a body of flesh. The evil that had tainted him in the womb just gave him unique powers and placed him firmly in the Interstice.

Yes, Serpico has been somewhat aimless for a while, long before that in fact. His relevance has diminished as Farnese grew stronger and more independent. I'm sure he'll find his own way eventually though, and Elfhelm seems like the perfect place for that.

On a side note, there is no "mermaid arc". To see all episodes, chapters and arcs of the series, you can consult this handy list: http://skullknight.net/manga/ (http://skullknight.net/manga/).

Don't hesitate to direct that person to this thread, most of which has me lengthily arguing against that idea. :SK:


Excuse me, i meant to say i think the boy is Guts and casca's child but my understanding of that baby is he was spirtually transfigured or maimed before birth.  And never got a chance at life(incoming graphic description) and I'm not even clear if casca has him as a still birth or if the panel in which it appears to be that it isn't his fetus persay but he's already been turned into his ethreal ghost like existence.  I do seem to recall him passing on in a sense before he reappears in his more memorable(i guess really for me) form that he would protect Guts in.


I suppose it's true he must have had flesh if he was eaten but i'm not sure what the beherit apostle could "eat" so to speak.

Point being though he is born again into human flesh, through that whole second eclipse and he would be in some sentiment the opposite story of griffith.

Or the other half to the whole.


Griffith was a man, who died to become a god(well god hand), and that being was born again in this world.



The boy(moonlight boy) was more of a spirtual being made into flesh.   In the sense that the existence he came from was one that was on that plane.  Rather than going from this world/to the spirtualto this world again, he came from the spirtual to this world to lead the life he never had the chance to live.


Even if he was technically corporeal(or of the flesh?)  before this rebirth(if it is him) he seems like he represents the reverse or opposite of the way the rest of the way things have gone with everything else concerning "fate"

If you've ever read/seen dragonball/z  you'll know of the story of kami and how he split himself into two halves from his whole, in order to become pure good, or the mystics and the skeksi's in dark crystal.  It seems like a part of the birth that was designed to bring fempto into the corporeal world created the opposite effect for griffith's(i guess a dark kami) and left an innocent half floating around.

he seems like the one force suggesting hope of postive recovery, in the spirtual.  Of course it could all turn out bad, and schierke seems to understand a whole world of postive spirtuality, and we haven't been to elf island which seems to hold the possibility for some healing for casca.   

Also apologies on refering to it as "the mermaid arc"  i wanted to refer to the parts of them fighting the sea god, that focuses on Isidro meeting the girl( can't for the life of me remember her name right now apologies) who ends up becoming a mermaid(not sure if i'm remembering correctly that they even call them mermaids.)  To me he really took a center stage there.   I feel serpico has a lot to give,  with the brilliance of the silat/rakshas fight it has me looking to see more of what can be done with him and what he can do in fights based off those magnificent fight scenes with Guts. 
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on November 04, 2015, 04:58:05 PM
Excuse me, i meant to say i think the boy is Guts and casca's child but my understanding of that baby is he was spirtually transfigured or maimed before birth.  And never got a chance at life(incoming graphic description) and I'm not even clear if casca has him as a still birth or if the panel in which it appears to be that it isn't his fetus persay but he's already been turned into his ethreal ghost like existence.

Guts and Casca made love, and she became pregnant. When Femto raped her, his evil power tainted the embryo. That caused an extra-early birth, but we can clearly see in the manga that the boy is alive at all times. However, what I was pointing out is that the boy does have a corporeal body. He has magic powers and exists within the Interstice, and his nature makes him unable to appear in broad daylight, but he has a corporeal body nonetheless.

Griffith was a man, who died to become a god(well god hand), and that being was born again in this world. The boy(moonlight boy) was more of a spirtual being made into flesh.

No, that is completely wrong. Femto is a spiritual being. When Griffith became Femto during the Eclipse, he lost his corporeal body. During the incarnation, what happened is that Femto "took flesh" (that is the literal meaning of "incarnate"). Femto obtained a new corporeal body, and that's the new Griffith. Now, the corporeal body he obtained did not appear out of thin air. It is that of the boy, whom the Beherit Apostle took within himself. Within that very special egg, the boy's body underwent a transformation and became Griffith's body.

So the boy always had a corporeal body, always had flesh (the Beherit Apostle actually comments on it before swallowing him). What happened is that Femto took over that body. Now since then the boy has started appearing as the "Moonlight Boy", with a new form and new powers. We don't know yet how he manifests himself like that, but what's sure is it can't be said that Femto's incarnation gave him flesh, since it's literally the opposite of what occurred.

In case the process still isn't clear for you with that explanation, I've compiled the relevant panels from the manga in a sequential order. (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Incarnation_Process.jpg)

If you've ever read/seen dragonball/z  you'll know of the story of kami and how he split himself into two halves from his whole, in order to become pure good, or the mystics and the skeksi's in dark crystal.  It seems like a part of the birth that was designed to bring fempto into the corporeal world created the opposite effect for griffith's(i guess a dark kami) and left an innocent half floating around.

No, no such thing occurred. No innocent half was created when Femto was incarnated. Honestly I'm not sure what the logic would even be for it to work. In any case, it's not what happened!

Also apologies on refering to it as "the mermaid arc"  i wanted to refer to the parts of them fighting the sea god, that focuses on Isidro meeting the girl( can't for the life of me remember her name right now apologies) who ends up becoming a mermaid(not sure if i'm remembering correctly that they even call them mermaids.)

The girl is called Isma and she and her species are called Merrows. It's no problem, I knew what you meant, I just wanted to point you towards the proper names for each segment of the story.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Yozuru on November 08, 2015, 04:58:45 AM
So the boy always had a corporeal body, always had flesh (the Beherit Apostle actually comments on it before swallowing him). What happened is that Femto took over that body. Now since then the boy has started appearing as the "Moonlight Boy", with a new form and new powers. We don't know yet how he manifests himself like that, but what's sure is it can't be said that Femto's incarnation gave him flesh, since it's literally the opposite of what occurred.

Hello Aazealh! I always love you interpretations, it is always so clear and concise. You bring up really good points about how he is the boy could possibly be the demon child. I also think there is a possibility that he could be King Hanafubuku, since I remember Schierke suspected that it might be an emissary or King Hanafubuku himself. This is really interesting if that was the case because it brings into mind what is the purpose of him being there.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Aazealh on November 08, 2015, 05:13:05 AM
Hello Aazealh! I always love you interpretations, it is always so clear and concise.

Thank you Yozuru, I'm glad you enjoy my posts.

You bring up really good points about how he is the boy could possibly be the demon child. I also think there is a possibility that he could be King Hanafubuku, since I remember Schierke suspected that it might be an emissary or King Hanafubuku himself. This is really interesting if that was the case because it brings into mind what is the purpose of him being there.

I believe if you read this entire thread, and in particular my exchange with Griffith, you will find out that there really is no doubt about who the boy is (i.e. Guts and Casca's son).

Also, for info, "Hanafubuku" is not a name but a Japanese sentence that for some unexplainable reason Dark Horse decided not to translate. The proper translation for it is "King of the Flower Storm". So I recommend you use that to refer to him, since "Hanafubuku" is completely meaningless in English.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Yozuru on November 08, 2015, 05:41:04 AM
I believe if you read this entire thread, and in particular my exchange with Griffith, you will find out that there really is no doubt about who the boy is (i.e. Guts and Casca's son).

Also, for info, "Hanafubuku" is not a name but a Japanese sentence that for some unexplainable reason Dark Horse decided not to translate. The proper translation for it is "King of the Flower Storm". So I recommend you use that to refer to him, since "Hanafubuku" is completely meaningless in English.

First and foremost, my apologies for not reading the previous posts. I will not make the same mistake again, so thank you for clearing up the misunderstanding.  :casca:

Ahh I see! I have been using the public Berserk wiki, so thank you for giving me the translation for it. I definitely prefer "King of the Flower Storm" over "Hanafubuku".  :guts:

This definitely makes him a much more interesting character! I am looking forward to seeing him appear again.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: ApostleBob on November 08, 2015, 05:51:00 PM

Ahh I see! I have been using the public Berserk wiki, so thank you for giving me the translation for it. I definitely prefer "King of the Flower Storm" over "Hanafubuku".  :guts:


Just a friendly warning: The Berserk Wiki is woefully out of date and full of outdated speculation, much of which has been since debunked.  It's an okay resource but I'd put my money on SK.net any day over that.  There's a strict empirical 'no nonsense' approach here that filters out a lot of the garbage you'll see elsewhere.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Yozuru on November 09, 2015, 01:18:43 AM
Just a friendly warning: The Berserk Wiki is woefully out of date and full of outdated speculation, much of which has been since debunked.  It's an okay resource but I'd put my money on SK.net any day over that.  There's a strict empirical 'no nonsense' approach here that filters out a lot of the garbage you'll see elsewhere.

That is one of the reasons why I joined here, to have awesome in-depth discussions with you guys about these topics. I enjoy seeing you guys peeling it layer by layer and examining and connecting all the pieces together.  :guts:

I am not very good at articulating things in writing myself, but it is a pleasure to just read the discussions.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: ApostleBob on November 09, 2015, 02:28:45 PM
I am not very good at articulating things in writing myself, but it is a pleasure to just read the discussions.

You seem to be doing fine so far.  The golden rules I live by:

1) If you're speculating or not sure, make that clear
2) Search around the site before asking a question that may be asked frequently out of consideration
3) Be prepared to back up theories with evidence
4) Don't take things too personally if a speculation is debunked. Discuss, but don't attack

Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Yozuru on November 09, 2015, 09:09:21 PM
You seem to be doing fine so far.  The golden rules I live by:

1) If you're speculating or not sure, make that clear
2) Search around the site before asking a question that may be asked frequently out of consideration
3) Be prepared to back up theories with evidence
4) Don't take things too personally if a speculation is debunked. Discuss, but don't attack

Hello Bob! I will take those rules to heart and make quality posts. Thank you for taking the time to personally help me and I'll look forward to your post in the discussions.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Theozilla on November 16, 2015, 12:26:49 AM
http://www.younganimal.com/magazine/next.html

I found this advertisement for the 11/27 Young Animal issue. Does this indicate that Episode 342 is going to be 24 pages? IIRC all the "Volume 38" episodes have ranged from 19-21 pages (when one counts double page spreads as two pages) in length usually, except for Episode 336 which was also 24 pages total.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Walter on November 16, 2015, 12:32:15 AM
http://www.younganimal.com/magazine/next.html

I found this advertisement for the 11/27 Young Animal issue. Does this indicate that Episode 342 is going to be 24 pages?

Nope.
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Theozilla on November 16, 2015, 12:38:45 AM
Nope.

Then what does the "24p" stand for? Is it for some other Young Animal series?
Title: Re: Episode 341
Post by: Walter on November 16, 2015, 12:47:27 AM
Is it for some other Young Animal series?

Either that or some photoshoot. That little panel doesn't mention Berserk. Instead, Berserk gets a single line, just to the left of that panel. Basically saying, look for it next time.