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Berserk => Current Episodes => Topic started by: strategia on July 21, 2016, 08:19:08 AM

Title: Episode 345
Post by: strategia on July 21, 2016, 08:19:08 AM
Title: 大導師 - Great Gurus
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: RaffoBaffo on July 21, 2016, 08:24:31 AM
Thank you, good sir.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 21, 2016, 08:46:17 AM
Haha Farnese's lips are unusually thick in that first panel :D

Guts seems to be showing his beherit and we see more of elder mages! I'm glad Ged is not the only one, that only makes Skellig even more formidable in my mind. Its seriously a magic stronghold. Looks like Guts reveals something about Griffith, I wonder what? Could this be the time he tells them he was an original band of the hawk member?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Imperator Hanseatic on July 21, 2016, 08:57:17 AM
Looks like Guts reveals something about Griffith, I wonder what? Could this be the time he tells them he was an original band of the hawk member?

Well, we won't know for sure until we see the whole thing. He may simply be vaguely talking about his past while thinking of Griffith, without giving away too many details. One way or another I'm hyped, and that's rare for me.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: RaffoBaffo on July 21, 2016, 08:58:34 AM
Could this be the time he tells them he was an original band of the hawk member?
I really hope so, i'd love to see the reaction of the group XD
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: strategia on July 21, 2016, 09:17:55 AM
I really hope so, i'd love to see the reaction of the group XD

I'm thinking the same
It comes faster than I expected.
For me it has to be with casca after her sanity restoration
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 21, 2016, 09:19:29 AM
Quote
I really hope so, i'd love to see the reaction of the group XD

And Isidro's face when he realises his original inspiration; the 100-man slayer was actually Guts. Should be an epic moment for sure.  :isidro:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Cyrus Jong on July 21, 2016, 10:08:40 AM
Dat Casca face. To think that it could be one of the last times we'll see her acting all goofy. There's something very bittersweet about that. I'm awaiting Casca's return to form with baited breath, but I can't help but feel that I'm going to miss her funny antics. Tragic as her condition is, I do also find her strangely adorable.

Doesn't look like Cucca and company were expecting them to bring in a Beherit. But it does look like Guts might be about to spill the beans to everyone present about a number of things he prefers to be quiet about.

Nice to see the gang being treated to a hot meal. Always enjoyed those rare and (relatively) peaceful moments, though it seems like there might be a bit of tension in the air this time. Can't help but notice that Azan is being left out though. Come on, guy, take off the damn helmet already! :azan:

Finally, I'm impressed by the design of the elders. A lot of artists tend to get lazy when they go about drawing these wizardy kind of old men and make them all clones of each other, but Miura's given each of them a distinctive look. Though is there some reason why they all have those odd black eyes like what Daiba sports, or is that just a stylistic choice?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Squiddot on July 21, 2016, 11:01:00 AM
Finally, I'm impressed by the design of the elders. A lot of artists tend to get lazy when they go about drawing these wizardy kind of old men and make them all clones of each other, but Miura's given each of them a distinctive look. Though is there some reason why they all have those odd black eyes like what Daiba sports, or is that just a stylistic choice?

The one with the large nose is throwing me off a bit. Its incredibly caricatured by Berserk standards. That guy would be freakish in real life. But that could be intentional.

As people have discussed this seems to be the moment Guts crew finally get to hear his past and the reasons behind his quest. What a huge moment this is going to be!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Cyrus Jong on July 21, 2016, 11:13:51 AM
The one with the large nose is throwing me off a bit. Its incredibly caricatured by Berserk standards. That guy would be freakish in real life. But that could be intentional.

As people have discussed this seems to be the moment Guts crew finally get to hear his past and the reasons behind his quest. What a huge moment this is going to be!
Eh, it could all just be a sign of their advanced age. These people are ancient, with more years to their lives than any human could ever hope to achieve through normal means, so some unusual looks are probably to be expected. I'm likely giving it more thought than it really deserves.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 11:15:55 AM
I like the gurus' designs, as well as the room in which they eat. Great little scene. One thing worth noting is that there's four of them in total apparently. Also of note: while Cucca and the others are present at the meeting, Molda appears not to be. I also found it neat that we got a shot of the beherit from the back, something we rarely see.

I'm glad Ged is not the only one, that only makes Skellig even more formidable in my mind. Its seriously a magic stronghold.

I know what you're trying to say, but I wouldn't call that village a stronghold.

Though is there some reason why they all have those odd black eyes like what Daiba sports, or is that just a stylistic choice?

Only one of them is shown as having dark, beady eyes. And it seems clear that it's a stylistic choice to me.

The one with the large nose is throwing me off a bit. Its incredibly caricatured by Berserk standards. That guy would be freakish in real life. But that could be intentional.

By Berserk standards, you mean as opposed to Mozgus? Also, keep in mind that these guys are likely very very old and that their astral selves may have a strong influence on their corporeal selves. That could explain these features.

As people have discussed this seems to be the moment Guts crew finally get to hear his past and the reasons behind his quest. What a huge moment this is going to be!

I think you guys are jumping the gun a bit. Guts might just be speaking in broad terms here to either ask what they know about the state of the world and the Falcon of Light, or recount what he does know, but without necessarily going into his life story.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Uriel on July 21, 2016, 11:53:37 AM
Copy in hand! Now, to go home and read it.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 11:56:17 AM
Copy in hand! Now, to go home and read it.

Nice! Please give us a short summary if you can. :serpico:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Patrick on July 21, 2016, 12:15:42 PM
Thanks for posting this. :)
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Tabris on July 21, 2016, 12:16:28 PM
Holy hell, so excited! While I love crazy fights in this series, these are the ones I get truly excited for.

I can't wait to see them talk about the Beherit and what they have to say about Griffith.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Delta Phi on July 21, 2016, 12:31:08 PM
Oh man, the anticipation is killing me; not quite episode 303 bad, but the things we might learn in this episode...Can't wait!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: DANGERDOOOOM on July 21, 2016, 12:52:41 PM
It's moments like these that make life more enjoyable  :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Oburi on July 21, 2016, 01:24:18 PM
This... looks... amazing. For as long as I've been following Berserk, sadly I wasn't a current reader when Guts first met up with Flora, so this is going to be great. The amount of information we are about to get...
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Squiddot on July 21, 2016, 01:34:01 PM
By Berserk standards, you mean as opposed to Mozgus? Also, keep in mind that these guys are likely very very old and that their astral selves may have a strong influence on their corporeal selves. That could explain these features.

Yeah that's what I was getting at with the "could be intentional" Sorry, was at work and couldn't say as much as I wanted to. It could be that years in the astral world or use of magic has warped their physical bodies. Gedflynn had quite an odd shape as well. Their age is also pretty interesting because Flora was old enough to have known SkullKnight in his human days and didn't look much older than 60 by remaining within the spirit tree's astral pocket. This council presumably has experienced the same life extension in Elfhelm. If they still look this ancient, we may be dealing with some characters who have lived incredibly long lives. Hopefully they have a deeper understanding of the Godhand compared to Flora, but that might not be the case which would mean Guts is the one schooling them on the Beherit's function. That would be a shame, it would be nice to have some more characters who can help Guts in otherworldly affairs.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 01:36:16 PM
Hopefully they have a deeper understanding of the Godhand compared to Flora, but that might not be the case which would mean Guts is the one schooling them on the Beherit's function.

We're in agreement on your post in general, but I can't believe Guts will be teaching those gurus what a beherit is.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Squiddot on July 21, 2016, 01:47:38 PM
I can't believe Guts will be teaching those gurus what a beherit is.

You're right. I was misremembering Guts' conversation with Flora. I thought she only knew it was used to commune with the Godhand, and that it's tied to fate, not the sacrificial mechanics. But it's clear she understands everything about it and is just intentionally avoiding mentioning the horror of it. Damn, I was hoping if Guts needed to explain the requirements of a sacrifice it would be the perfect segue into his own history with Griffith.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: strategia on July 21, 2016, 02:06:10 PM
We're in agrement on your post in general, but I can't believe Guts will be teaching those gurus what a beherit is.

It is true but they probably don't know two kind of beherit existing
And other using of it like skullknight sword
After skullknight he was the better in eclipse experience 4 time if my count was good
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 02:15:49 PM
It is true but they probably don't know two kind of beherit existing
And other using of it like skullknight sword
After skullknight he was the better in eclipse experience 4 time if my count was good

I'm not sure that's probable at all. I wouldn't underestimate these guys if I were you.
As for the Skull Knight... I don't understand your last sentence but for all we know, they might know more about him than Guts does.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Uriel on July 21, 2016, 02:51:00 PM
Okay. I REALLY have to go to bed, because it's late in Japan and I just got settled in. I'm really sorry guys. BUT I will give a quick overview of the first half.

We enter the home of the gurus, much to the awe of Guts and co. Isidro remarks how huge the places is. We are introduced to a few new faces here. The other gurus are busy playing chess, and not paying attention to their visitors. The red-nosed guru turns to someone and says "Hey, Danan-chan, is lunch ready yet?" while the others are still arguing about their chess match. Danan is introduced as a young, blonde witch with round balls in her hair, and flowers crowning her hat. She scolds him for just eating, but the red-nosed guru doesn't seem to recall doing so... old person jokes aplenty.

Isidro interrupts in his usual brash manner asking if this is where the village geriatrics meet, only to be quickly reprimanded by Cucca. She formally introduced these wizened grand sages.

居付きのスキルビル Skilbill the Settled = red nose, wavebeard
スラーイン Slyne / Slahin? = long-beard
ギンナル Ginnaru / Ginnal = black-eyed curly beard

(the other two had titles, but I decided to skip over them for now)

Danan is introduced as kind of the at-home help, and she, of course, welcomes Puck back after a long voyage. She bids them take off their shoes, as she is about to make some tea.

Guts wastes no time getting to the point. He is here to see the elf king. "I came all the way here with the feeling of 'I have to meet him no matter what it takes as I have something to request of him.' The object of my goal is right in front of me. Please!" he basically pleads. The gurus empathize, but first, Gelfring bids him calm down, and have some tea first. At this point everyone else chimes in to say that maybe a bit of a break and some of Danan's cooking wouldn't be so bad. Guts is impatient, but goes along with everyone else's wishes. (Puck literally says "My soul food!" while tucking into some snacks!)

At this time more witches from outside are peering in, clearly interested in the visitors. The group recounts some of their adventures with trolls and the like. The young witches seems shocked and impressed! Not Morda though. She is chilling off camera, as it were, reclining in a chair and being her usual smarmy self.

We cut to Ged who is talking to Guts. He says something like "According to 'The Blast of the Astral World,' the world brought about the Falcon of Light's is certainly the world of myth and legends that has been passed down from stories."

Guts: "That story. I want you to tell me the details."

A long, complicated explanation transpires that my tired brain refuses to translate or summarize right now. Something about the trees that connect the world, Griffith's objective, and the connection with the Beherit.

.....

At the end of the episode, Guts tries to give the gurus an impression of Griffith. "To obtain a country is just a stepping stone. Surpassing the heights that you aim for, and continuing to soar past them, that is the Hawk, Griffith." or some such. Followed by....

http://m.imgur.com/eMhGi38

More Berserk next month. Oh, and a pretty huge double-sided poster of the manga/anime. (http://m.imgur.com/PkrNfVy)
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 02:54:06 PM
Thanks for going through the trouble man. Sleep well!
I'm really curious to know more about the trees, what Griffith did and what his objective may be. I'm sure we'll know more soon. :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Uriel on July 21, 2016, 02:57:56 PM
Thanks for going through the trouble man. Sleep well!
I'm really curious to know more about the trees, what Griffith did and what his objective may be. I'm sure we'll know more soon. :guts:

I think their attack on Flora was the beginning of Griffith's attack on "The Forest of Spiritual Trees", but I'll need time to translate.

Sorry I couldn't do more, man.  おやすみ
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Imperator Hanseatic on July 21, 2016, 03:00:56 PM
Followed by....

(https://ton.twitter.com/i/ton/data/dm/756133412239396868/756133412268748801/dXY6QOtV.jpg:small)

More Berserk next month. Oh, and a pretty huge double-sided poster of the manga/anime. (https://ton.twitter.com/i/ton/data/dm/756133362826215427/756133362851459073/tGUe1rb-.jpg:large)

I'm getting "page does not exist."

Anyway, thank you for this Uriel.  :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Uriel on July 21, 2016, 03:09:53 PM
Should be fixed now. Edited the original!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 03:16:03 PM
I think their attack on Flora was the beginning of Griffith's attack on "The Forest of Spiritual Trees", but I'll need time to translate.

Sorry I couldn't do more, man.  おやすみ

Don't be sorry, every bit helps. :serpico:

At the end of the episode, Guts tries to give the gurus an impression of Griffith. "To obtain a country is just a stepping stone. Surpassing the heights that you aim for, and continuing to soar past them, that is the Hawk, Griffith." or some such.

While it isn't really "new" to the astute reader that after having become Femto, he doesn't just want a kingdom anymore, I like that Guts himself can clearly feel it. That his ambition is boundless.

Oh, and a pretty huge double-sided poster of the manga/anime. (http://m.imgur.com/PkrNfVy)

Oh shit, nice! I've already ordered a physical copy because it's a "Berserk special", and I see I had the right hunch! :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Theozilla on July 21, 2016, 03:19:31 PM
http://m.imgur.com/eMhGi38

More Berserk next month.

If we're still getting another episode next month, have they just not decided on which YA animal issue it is going to be in yet then?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 03:24:20 PM
If we're still getting another episode next month, have they just not decided on which YA animal issue it is going to be in yet then?

The mention at the end of the episode says "to be continued". Not sure whether that means Berserk will be in the next issue (August 12) or the one after that (August 26) from just that. I'd expect it in one month, however. In the meantime, I would suggest that you enjoy the episode that's barely even out yet.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: The Beast of Darkness on July 21, 2016, 03:29:12 PM
Thanks for the summary, Uriel.
My copy left this morning ! the poster looks splendid !!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: RaffoBaffo on July 21, 2016, 03:29:22 PM
If we're still getting another episode next month, have they just not decided on which YA animal issue it is going to be in yet then?
"To be Continued" is present since the start of the Monthly serialization.

Tey simply put the date in another spot of the last page, like in the last Episode, for example.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Theozilla on July 21, 2016, 03:34:49 PM
"To be Continued" is present since the start of the Monthly serialization.

Tey simply put the date in another spot of the last page, like in the last Episode, for example.

Ahh, gotcha. Forgot about that. Thanks for reminder. Based on the Korean leaks the next episode appears to be scheduled for the August 26 YA issue.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Rupert Sinclair on July 21, 2016, 03:43:41 PM
WOW!  What an episode!  This is some amazing stuff.  Definitely what we've all been waiting for and then some.  This is a big moment in Berserk history guys!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Delta Phi on July 21, 2016, 03:43:57 PM
Looks like a lot of discussion. I feel like this is going to be a really great episode! Beherits, World Spiral Tree, Falconia. I love Guts' comment on Griffith's ambition.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Griffith on July 21, 2016, 03:49:59 PM
A long, complicated explanation transpires that my tired brain refuses to translate or summarize right now. Something about the trees that connect the world, Griffith's objective, and the connection with the Beherit.

.....

At the end of the episode, Guts tries to give the gurus an impression of Griffith. "To obtain a country is just a stepping stone. Surpassing the heights that you aim for, and continuing to soar past them, that is the Hawk, Griffith." or some such. Followed by....

http://m.imgur.com/eMhGi38

Holy shit! :isidro: So, that's pretty much everything I'd like to hear about from Guts' closely guarded point of view. Thanks for all the info, Uriel!

Don't be sorry, it already tells us quite a bit!

Hell yeah, this is going to be great, and makes explaining his past a bit inevitable, simply to acknowledge what he knows.

While it isn't really "new" to the astute reader that after having become Femto, he doesn't just want a kingdom anymore, I like that Guts himself can clearly feel it. That his ambition is boundless.

Yeah, the castle, crown, and Griffith's speech from his very first appearance was always a metaphor for him really being Femto at his core, not the other way around. "Well, now that I've ascended to Godhood, I can finally get that large stone fortress I've always wanted!" Hell, the speech itself is pretty literal in that it acknowledges the limitations of even a King, and Griffith's desire to transcend every station in life, including that one. Becoming a King from nothing was merely a proof, but that he happened to be a human being proved too much an inconvenience. =)



Wow, it's like the visit to Flora's on steroids. Thanks Aaz, definitely looking forward to continued dissections of this. Also, I don't know if it's the filters and quality on these scans, the incorporation of more digital techniques, or the much maligned "assistants" but some of the imagery, particularly Guts' model, looks a little funky in places.

Looks like a lot of discussion. I feel like this is going to be a really great episode! Beherits, World Spiral Tree, Falconia. Wonder what Guts thinks of Griffith now...

It sounds like there's still a hint of admiration there, despite the obvious and deserved personal hatred and disgust. After all, Guts was fine with Griffith's ambitions and tactics until he and the Falcons were on the wrong end of them and Griff literally became a monster. It's going to be the best though when Guts says to Griff's face that he lost all respect for him because, "You couldn't hack it as a human, bro. Like ME! You're just the god of losers, really. :guts:"  :ganishka:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Squiddot on July 21, 2016, 04:02:44 PM
This is clearly an episode where the dialogue is the real treat. Here's a small find and seek for us mono-language speakers for the time being.

Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 21, 2016, 04:12:18 PM
Come chat with us in our Discord channel about Ep. 345: https://discord.gg/HGUxB

To avoid confusion, please use your SKnet username in the chat. If you have trouble with it or the link, let me know via PM.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: N7Paladin on July 21, 2016, 04:54:48 PM
Fantastic, this episode looks great. I'm overly excited for the full summary.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 05:59:15 PM
Here's the summary, courtesy of puella. As usual keep in mind none of this is final until we can see the Japanese text.

The episode title is "Great Gurus".

As they enter the house, Isidro comments on how big it is. Big enough that Schierke's home (the house of the spiritual tree) could fit inside that hall in its entirety. The gurus are playing chess. One says "checkmate" and the other one pretends he needs to leave as an elixir he's brewing must be ready now. They bicker about it: "you're trying to escape like this again!" to which the other replies "it's you who's always escaping, yesterday there was no moon but you talked about a ceremony, I could see right through it!" All the while the third guru is asking their help, Danan, if the meal is ready yet. She replies that they've just had a meal, to which he says "ohhh is that so?"

Upon seeing this, Isidro bluntly asks it is a retirement home. Cucca tells him he's rude, and explains that they are gurus, like Lord Gedflynn, who lead the magicians in this village. She presents them and they each have a specialty associated with their name (see Uriel's post for that). And of course there's Danan, who helps with chores and stuff. She welcomes Puck home and tells him he must have gone through a lot of trouble on his journey. She comments on how journey is supposed to make people grow up... but that with him it seems it's not the case, although he did get fatter. Then she's off to make tea.

Guts speaks up: "Sorry but can I meet the king of elves, the King of the Flower Storm, before that?" Schierke utters his name... Guts goes on: "We... I have something to ask him. I've come here with only that in mind. The one I've wanted to meet so much is just in front of me, please understand." Ged replies that he understands Guts is in a hurry, but urges him to take it easy for now, as a guest. He adds that although he's the king of elves, he won't disappear while they drink a cup of tea. Guts wants to insist, but Ged adds that "if you rush to him nervously, it might hurt his feelings."

Finally Ged adds that Guts' companions must also be tired from a long journey. Magnifico jumps on the occasion to say that yes, he's tired, so can he have his tea? Roderick comments that he never changes. Ged goes on to point out that besides, Guts' companions seem to like Danan's biscuits (as they gorge themselves). The red-nosed guru seems to be an addict himself. Isidro comments that indeed, the food of a witch is awesome. Puck calls it his "soul food" and Ivalera says that it's quite good, though not as much as Flora's biscuits. Guts is unhappy but accepts. Puck, as he's stuffing his face, adds that it's Ok, because the king of the elves isn't the easy type (implying he's not easy to deal with).

On that note, Danan arrives saying the cake is also ready, which prompts everyone to rush to her. Serpico tells Guts that he feels completely spent because the constant tension they've been under is finally eased up. Guts agrees. We cut to the group retelling their adventures. The audience comments "Ohhh trolls and Kushan monsters, a ghost ship and a sea god... must have been a really adventurous journey!". Isidro says "oh yeah" and specifies that they had turmoil every goddamn day and incessantly risked their lives. Guts comments that he's exaggerating a bit, but that it's essentially true. Cucca asks Schierke for confirmation and Schierke says yes, and that to be honest she can't even believe they arrived safely, even though it's a bit awkward to say as a magician. Cucca comments that the outside world is horrible. Ivalera says yes, and that without Schierke the group would have been destroyed long ago. Molda says that it's stimulating and sounds interesting, which displeases Cucca.

Ged gets serious and says it's the world the Falcon of Light created through the Blast of the Astral World. "It's really a world of legends that were passed down generation to generation."
Guts seizes the occasion: "That story... can you tell me more about it, old man?" Ged obliges. He asks them: Since that day, have you ever seen "the branches" that scrape the sky?

Isidro replies: Ah, you mean that thing we can see sometimes when the weather's good? Serpico says that at first, he thought it was a strangely shaped cloud... Roderick goes on: "But we can even see it during the day so we use it instead of constellations. To us seamen it's very convenient."

Ged explains that it's the branches of the world tree, the legendary giant tree that is said to connect heaven, earth and the netherworld (land of the dead). Schierke repeats: "the world tree..." Isidro says he's heard of it in some children's tale, but Ged says it's a bit more complicated with the magical analysis. Schierke asks him if he means "the road of dragons"? Ged is delighted. "Ohh, you're really the pupil of Flora, you must have studied much. This is indeed literally piercing deep inside of the astral world and the corporeal world. It's a giant "crack/rupture" that pierces through the world. Note how in that panel where Ged explains it, viewed flatly like that, it does look like a crack. Anyway, Isma asks what he means, and Schierke tells her to think about the den of a mole.

Schierke explains that during full moon nights, people can, rarely, get to pass on a road that connects the real world to the astral world. The small one is called "the road of elves" and it's connected to shallow ponds in the astral world. Sometimes that causes a child to get lost in the forest. Ged picks up: And the bigger one is called "the road of dragons", and is connected to the deep parts of the astral world (We see the Vortex of Souls as a background to that explanation). Ged then addresses Guts directly: The egg at your waist is something to reach to the abyss, that opens the road of dragons. Guts pulls it out and gets reactions from the kids, asking what it is or saying it's ugly, while Isidro jokes that it looks funny. Ged then asks Guts: "Then... is it yours? Or are you just its carrier?"

Guts replies with a reference to Flora: "Ahh those who are magicians... I've heard the same thing in the forest before." Then Puck interjects: "And like I said before, this is mine!" The witches tell him "Wait, isn't that thing dangerous? A cursed, monstrous thing..." Puck tries to convince them otherwise "Look at him carefully, he likes cheese", but without success as they're scared and disgusted. Ivalera is dismayed that he's "like that" even at home.

Schierke thanks Ged for the introduction, but asks if he could tell her about the attacks of the forests of spiritual trees and how they're related to the appearance of the world tree. The gurus answer: "Forest of spiritual trees is a general word that refers to a land that where there are giant trees that exist in "the interstice/crack". And each of the giant trees is a parasite tree that roots spiritually on the world tree." They go on to explain that those trees are symbolic representations that exist in different worlds, and that their role is to prevent the world tree's branches to extend to the real world. They do this by absorbing the world tree's power. The magicians based in the forests of spiritual trees do magical research based on the giant spiritual power that the trees have. And by protecting the land, they prevent the balance of the real world and astral world from tipping. They think it's their duty. They tell her that her teacher was also one of those magicians.

The gurus go on: "Now almost all forests of spiritual trees around the world have been burned to ashes. Because of that, the world tree got more power. So the ancient chaos when the real world and the astral world are mixed together is going to come back." Ged says that now, he wants to ask a question to the man in black, who has a deep relation to him: "Who the hell is the Falcon of Light? Can you tell me what he wants to do by twisting the world like that? What desire led him to be reborn as a Guardian Angel of Desire?"

Guts thinks to himself: "My, my... I've reached this place while restraining my fixation on Griffith. How could I ever expect to be asked a question about him in that place I've finally reached?" He then answers: "To acquire his own country." He goes on: "He said so on the days we were mercenaries, when we ate the same food." Ged comments: "Taking a country... indeed. I looked into it with my spiritual view. He revived a giant ancient city at the foot of the world tree. While the world is becoming chaotic, ironically only the base of the giant tree stands out like a typhoon's eye. It has become a land that repel evil spirits, thanks to the gentle spiritual power that land is full of. So now it has indeed become a normal country where humans can live peaceful lives."

Cucca is surprised to hear that Guts is an acquaintance of the Falcon of Light that brought up the Blast of the Astral World. She asks him what he is. Serpico comments that he's been surprised by Guts in many different ways but that this one is really beyond his imagination. "Your opponent, to whom you're connected, is such a powerful man that can change the world." Magnifico says to himself: "Ah that Black Swordsman has a connection with such an important person... I can't let it go." It prompts Roderick to comment that he truly is a merchant at heart. Isma complains that she can't understand anything, it's too complicated. Isidro reassures her: "Don't worry, me neither." He then tries to make sense of it: "Do you mean the person who is the Falcon of Light is the White Falcon, the hero of Midland?" Serpico says yes. Isidro goes on: "Hmm, I'm not sure but the Falcon used something like magic to make the world full of monsters." Puck responds: "Approximately right." Isidro keeps going: "And the Falcon is an old acquaintance of Guts." His deduction finally bears fruit: "It can't be!! The man I've respected, the 100 man slayer, the strongest man of the Band of the Falcon! You're also an acquaintance of his, Guts?! Awesome, please introduce him to me!"

Ged reflects: "To take a country, or more precisely to establish his own country. The whole world himself... It's helpless. Though he doesn't care about the means to reach his goal." Guts says that it's a bit different, it's the other way around. "To Griffith, the goal is about the means. And then says that "he hasn't changed at all. To acquire his country is just a passing point. He's the Falcon who flies as far as he can go, towards the highest possible goal. This is the Falcon, Griffith."
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 21, 2016, 06:12:34 PM
Absolutely magnificent. Thanks so much for the summary Aaz and Puella. I pulled over on the side of the road to read this monster
Its going to take some time to digest.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Griffith on July 21, 2016, 06:15:50 PM
Yeah, that's incredible, both the content and the summary in itself. Thank you, Aaz & Puella.

"It can't be!! The man I've respected, the 100 man slayer, the strongest man of the Band of the Falcon! You're also an acquaintance of his, Guts?! Awesome, please introduce him to me!"

 :ganishka:

Guts says that it's a bit different, it's the other way around. To Griffith, the goal is about the means. And then says that "he hasn't changed at all. To acquire his country is just a passing point. He's the Falcon who flies as far as he can go, towards the highest possible goal. This is the Falcon, Griffith."

Whoa.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 21, 2016, 06:34:30 PM
Seeing Guts talk about Griffith in that way, truly shows that only Guts ever really understood him. Their bond was something else, and even today guts shows immense respect for him, even after what happened. Ultimate bromance fantasy. Well at least it used to be, but its good to be reminded about it.

The World tree confuses me. It feels like one of those things that simply just " are " like plains of existence, something that was there since dawn of time, so I dont think we'll get an explanation as to why the tree connects the three realms. Now the question remains is who created/planted those parasite spiritual trees to restrain the world Tree. Ancient wizards, Gaiserick, were they always there? So many questions.


Quote
Whoa.

I'm like screaming at the screen, TELL HIM ALREADY. I hate suspense.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: volatilecurry on July 21, 2016, 06:40:29 PM
Thanks so much for the summary.

So Isidro asks Guts to introduce him to the 100 man slayer and again Guts just ignores the reference. Maybe next time...
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 06:44:21 PM
Seeing Guts talk about Griffith in that way, truly shows that only Guts ever really understood him. Their bond was something else, and even today guts shows immense respect for him, even after what happened. Ultimate bromance fantasy. Well at least it used to be, but its good to be reminded about it.

I think you're going too far here. Guts understood Griffith well, but there are ways in which Casca, for example, understood him better. At least during their talk at the waterfall, in volume 9, where she explained to him why Griffith had faltered after he had left. And I also don't think Guts is showing Griffith respect here, only acknowledging who he is and what drives him.

The tree of life confuses me. It feels like one of those things that simply just " are " like plains of existence, something that was there since dawn of time, so I dont think we'll get an explanation as to why the tree connects the three realms. Now the question remains is who created/planted those parasite spiritual trees to restrain the world Tree. Ancient wizards, Gaiserick, were they always there? So many questions.

It's not called the tree of life. Using proper words is the first step towards comprehension. As for your questions... I think we'll get the answer sooner or later. :slan:

I'm like screaming at the screen, TELL HIM ALREADY. I hate suspense.

Well he did answer Gedflynn's question.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Delta Phi on July 21, 2016, 07:02:27 PM
Thanks so much, Aaz and Puella! This episode has me so excited.

Isidro is killing me! He has no idea how close he is :ganishka:

Quote
They go on to explain that those trees are symbolic representations that exist in different worlds, and that their role is to prevent the world tree's branches to extend to the real world. They do this by absorbing the world tree's power. And by protecting the land, they prevent the balance of the real world and astral world from tipping. They think it's their duty. They tell her that her teacher was also one of those magicians.

Am I understanding this correctly? The forest of spiritual trees aren't actually trees, it's just a phrase that describes the various seals that syphon the World Spiral Tree's power, and these seals are related to the land (the area around and including the tree house mansion?). So the apostles weren't just after Flora, but her "tree" as well (which was assumed based on the info from the previous episode).
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: TheBranded1 on July 21, 2016, 07:03:45 PM
Thanks you Puella, as,always the time we wait for these episodes gn is always rewarding.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Androyd on July 21, 2016, 07:08:17 PM
I wonder if restoring the forests of spirit trees will be the endgame to toppling Griffith, God Hand, and ioE.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Griffith on July 21, 2016, 07:11:22 PM
Seeing Guts talk about Griffith in that way, truly shows that only Guts ever really understood him.

Actually, as Aaz pointed out with Casca, it was Guts misunderstanding of Griffith that took us down this road.

Their bond was something else, and even today guts shows immense respect for him, even after what happened.

I don't think it's an endorsement. Guts may have admired Griffith for this back in volume 8, and such ambition in a vacuum, but it's ultimately a critique because that's all their is to Griff at the expense off all else, as Guts found out personally the hard way. Griffith isn't a very good friend, in so many words.

I'm like screaming at the screen, TELL HIM ALREADY. I hate suspense.

Do you mean tell Isidro about being the 100 man slayer, or present company that he and Casca were Griffith's sacrifices?

I think you're going too far here. Guts understooAnd I also don't think Guts is showing Griffith respect here, only acknowledging who he is and what drives him.

Well, it's relatively respectful given that he's not merely calling him a traitorous fuckin' monster, at least directly. :guts:

I wonder if restoring the forests of spirit trees will be the endgame to toppling Griffith, God Hand, and ioE.

A reasonable thought, but how, and God that sounds time consuming; do you really want to watch them go restore all the magic trees in the world? How about Guts just chops them in half instead. Problem solved. =)
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 21, 2016, 07:21:13 PM
Quote
Do you mean tell Isidro about being the 100 man slayer,

Yeah telling Isidro that he's the 100 man slayer.  :ubik: Though Im sure Isidro will make a connection down the road.

Quote
Actually, as Aaz pointed out with Casca, it was Guts misunderstanding of Griffith that took us down this road.

Yeah I get that. What I meant was Guts was privy to all Griffith's secrets and " dark ploys" such as the assassinations where the rest of the band didnt know this side of Griffith. I guess I phrased it badly. My bad, happens often.





Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 07:22:10 PM
Am I understanding this correctly? The forest of spiritual trees aren't actually trees, it's just a phrase that describes the various seals that syphon the World Spiral Tree's power, and these seals are related to the land (the area around and including the tree house mansion?). So the apostles weren't just after Flora, but her "tree" as well (which was assumed based on the info from the previous episode).

No, the trees are there, and they're the "seals". And the apostles were indeed after Flora's tree, as we had assumed. Also, it's just a guess, but I think that part about "symbolic representations" may refer to the Ideal World. However please keep in mind that a degree of uncertainty remains because this is retranslated from a language other than Japanese. We'll know for sure once we have the original text.

I wonder if restoring the forests of spirit trees will be the endgame to toppling Griffith, God Hand, and ioE.

Probably not the endgame, no. The God Hand and the Idea of Evil existed fine while those seals were in place. It may be necessary in order to restore the world to a less chaotic place, but I'm not sure it's within the scope of the story to show us that whole process. Either way, something else will be needed to take care of Griffith and his ilk. Something like the Dragon Slayer. :iva:

Well, it's relatively respectful given that he's not merely calling him a traitorous fuckin' monster, at least directly. :guts:

Indeed, his restraint here in not just gritting his teeth and having the armor activate itself is admirable. :griffnotevil:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Kaladin on July 21, 2016, 07:29:20 PM
thanks for the summary!

amazing episode. so in the past, the world was indeed in a similar state to how it is right now, wow. the hype for the elf king keeps increasing, saying he's hard to deal with makes it even more intriguing. these guru's are probably just as powerful as ged, if the island does get attacked i expect greatness from them. magic users are the ones who kept the world at bay and kept humans safe, now they're frowned upon by many, thank you holy see. and it appears that the next episode comes out next month as well?  :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: RaffoBaffo on July 21, 2016, 07:33:49 PM
Thanks Aaz and puella, great summary  :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: ApostleBob on July 21, 2016, 07:39:58 PM
Thanks a ton Aaz and Puella! Lot's of deep stuff to digest here. It seems like the World Tree was always a thing and that the spiritual trees were just keeping it contained and the astral world at bay. Witches like Flora were guardians, who also harnassed the strange properties of it into magic, like some type of nature magic based Scientists. Pretty cool actually, and it explains why magic users are so rare; they apparently can only be found near these trees, because the trees influence their power and knowledge of magic.

I'm not totally clear on 'The road of Elves' vs 'The Road of dragons' but what I gather is that the astral world naturally has some small overlaps from time to time, and this explains the reare sightings of elves and other astral creatures, especially in a nature areas like the woods (basically explaining superstition in this world).  The road of Dragons is contained at all times by the Tree, but the Beherit can open a gate to it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but if both the roads are related or go to a similar place, does this have implications on whether the God Hand and IOE, and nature magic and astral creatures like trolls might be related after all through this World Tree? This is a bit unclear to me.

I love the idea that Falconia is in the eye of a storm created by the World Tree. A very cool concept indeed.

I wonder if a character could use the world tree to take a direct road to the vortex of souls and confront the Idea of Evil. It sounds like an unnecessarily big move to me, but perhaps if they could do something to it (even just distract it, say by a group of powerful magic users), the God hand might be at a disadvantage or less powerful.

Lots of cools stuff here. Lots of possibilities. I'm sure we'll learn more as we go.
 
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Sancho on July 21, 2016, 07:48:10 PM
I haven't posted in a while.

Thanks so much Aazealh and Puella for the summary. This episode was incredible. It brought some answers, but also even more questions.
Now i wonder, if this "road of dragons" really connects the physical world with the depths of the astral world, even with the vortex of souls, maybe if every forest of spiritual trees is destroyed the vortex itself will be brought in the physical world, or at least very near  :isidro:
This idea may sound a bit ridicolous, so i take it with a grain of salt, but by direct logic that's what should happen.

Also Ged mentioned that the Beherit can open the road of dragons. Maybe that's the same "road" Griffith descended in vol 13 when he perceived the deaths of his comrades and he reached the Abyss.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Androyd on July 21, 2016, 07:53:52 PM
Griffith and Aaz, you are both probably right in regards to your reply to my comment. I think it would be cool if the party split up with various members in charge of somehow restoring the forests... but real world time is an enemy. It would extend the story a lot.

When considering how such a task could even be completed, I wonder if the elves have a way for humans to travel the elf road branch... skip a boat ride back and all.

Can't imagine Roderick wanting to leave his ship there though.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: MrFlibble on July 21, 2016, 07:56:47 PM
Falconia is just a stepping stone? Jesus, Griffith is the most powerful being on Earth with his own kingdom and demon army. How much further can he go? Is there even a world left worth conquering?

The road of dragons is a badass name for the route to the Abyss, I wonder then if there are alternate routes to the abyss that don't involve behirits?

He revived a giant ancient city at the foot of the world tree.
So Falconia is confirmed to originally be Gaserics city, this was bound to be true, but it's good to have that confirmation.

So the ancient chaos when the real world and the astral world are mixed together is going to come back

It seems the merging of the worlds has happened before, Gaeserics conquest wasn't as cut and dried as it looked, he may have followed a similar route to Griffith, with Void as his accomplice in world domination  :void:






Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 08:03:19 PM
so in the past, the world was indeed in a similar state to how it is right now, wow.

Yep! Very curious to hear about some ancient history now. Hope the old folks will be in the mood for tale-telling. :carcus:

the hype for the elf king keeps increasing, saying he's hard to deal with makes it even more intriguing.

Indeed. Will he just be whimsical, as all elves are, or will he also request something of Guts in return for his help?

magic users are the ones who kept the world at bay and kept humans safe, now they're frowned upon by many, thank you holy see.

Well who do you think is behind the establishment of the Holy See, if not the God Hand? There's no coincidences here.

it explains why magic users are so rare; they apparently can only be found near these trees, because the trees influence their power and knowledge of magic.

No, no, magic users have become more rare in general. They're not naturally limited and obligated to stay near the trees, it's a choice some make. They become guardians and dedicate their research to those trees' power.

I'm not totally clear on 'The road of Elves' vs 'The Road of dragons' but what I gather is that the astral world naturally has some small overlaps from time to time, and this explains the reare sightings of elves and other astral creatures, especially in a nature areas like the woods (basically explaining superstition in this world).

Yes, this is essentially correct. In rare instances, like during full moons, that small road allows humans to venture in shallow parts of the Astral World.

The road of Dragons is contained at all times by the Tree, but the Beherit can open a gate to it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but if both the roads are related or go to a similar place, does this have implications on whether the God Hand and IOE, and nature magic and astral creatures like trolls might be related after all through this World Tree? This is a bit unclear to me.

Well the beherit can open a gate to the Abyss. It opens "the road of dragons", basically. Keep in mind this is all metaphorical. Both roads lead to the Astral World, but not to the same parts of it. As a reminder, the Astral World is layered, it has various depths and it changes drastically depending on how deep you go in it. Flora and Schierke explain this in volume 24. So very different territories (like the Qliphoth or Flora's domain) are found in very different layers, and the same goes for the kind of creatures that inhabit it. The road of elves is benign, but the road of dragons is very dangerous. The easiest example to understand is that elves and trolls are astral creatures, just like the Lady of the Depths and the Lord of the Rotting Roots. But they're not at all alike, neither in power nor in essence. The same goes for the God Hand, whose members are former humans who have become pure spiritual beings. They all exist in the Astral World, but in very different places. And the God Hand and the Idea of Evil aren't related to elemental magic.

I wonder if a character could use the world tree to take a direct road to the vortex of souls and confront the Idea of Evil. It sounds like an unnecessarily big move to me, but perhaps if they could do something to it (even just distract it, say by a group of powerful magic users), the God hand might be at a disadvantage or less powerful.

It's possible in theory, although you'd have to be sure you could keep existing at that depth, which isn't guaranteed. Like you said, I also think it's an unnecessarily big move when just facing a member of the God Hand is already a massive undertaking in and of itself. Finally, the Idea of Evil exists on such a different level that I'm not sure what one would do if they were to come to It.

Now i wonder, if this "road of dragons" really connects the physical world with the depths of the astral world, even with the vortex of souls, maybe if every forest of spiritual trees is destroyed the vortex itself will be brought in the physical world, or at least very near  :isidro:

An important question right now is how the World Spiral Tree is tied to the Abyss. Because Ganishka went down to the Abyss when he became Shiva, and the many faces and confusion he displayed afterward seemed to imply that he had tapped into the Vortex of Souls. We don't have the answer yet, but it's something to look out for. That being said, I don't think the Vortex of Souls will just appear near Falconia and swallow everyone or something that crude. But maybe all those who die will be unescapably absorbed by it through the World Spiral Tree.

Also Ged mentioned that the Beherit can open the road of dragons. Maybe that's the same "road" Griffith descended in vol 13 when he perceived the deaths of his comrades and he reached the Abyss.

Keep in mind those "roads" are metaphors and refer to phenomenons we were already aware of. Like a candidate for apostlehood being brought to the God Hand's lair.
As for Griffith when he became Femto, I'm not quite sure, given that he went down to where the Idea of Evil resides.

Griffith and Aaz, you are both probably right in regards to your reply to my comment. I think it would be cool if the party split up with various members in charge of somehow restoring the forests... but real world time is an enemy. It would extend the story a lot.

I think finding another way to get the World Tree to disappear would be more simple than just restoring the forests, which would presumably take hundreds of years.

I wonder if the elves have a way for humans to travel the elf road branch... skip a boat ride back and all.

I have wondered the same thing ever since we saw the Moonlight Boy travel through the World Spiral Tree.

It seems the merging of the worlds has happened before, Gaeserics conquest wasn't as cut and dried as it looked, he may have followed a similar route to Griffith, with Void as his accomplice in world domination  :void:

As I've said before, I think Griffith's life may well have been modeled after Gaiseric's. Except Gaiseric achieved his goal as a man, since he did not become a member of the God Hand and instead suffered a fate similar to that of Guts. This is nothing new to be honest.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Delta Phi on July 21, 2016, 08:03:56 PM
It seems the merging of the worlds has happened before, Gaeserics conquest wasn't as cut and dried as it looked, he may have followed a similar route to Griffith, with Void as his accomplice in world domination  :void:

Or the layers were one and have since been separated.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: MrFlibble on July 21, 2016, 08:12:49 PM
Or the layers were one and have since been separated.

Chaos isn't a word used to describe a state of balance. It's clear that different planes are not meant to be merged
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Jaze1618 on July 21, 2016, 08:27:46 PM
That summary gave me chills
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Griffith on July 21, 2016, 08:44:07 PM
so in the past, the world was indeed in a similar state to how it is right now, wow.

It reminds me of that old (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=67.msg1448#msg1448), much maligned (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=11743.msg184732#msg184732) theory purporting to explain the origins of Void, Skull Knight, and the makeup of the Berserk world in general. :carcus:

Griffith and Aaz, you are both probably right in regards to your reply to my comment. I think it would be cool if the party split up with various members in charge of somehow restoring the forests... but real world time is an enemy. It would extend the story a lot.

When considering how such a task could even be completed, I wonder if the elves have a way for humans to travel the elf road branch... skip a boat ride back and all.

It's really not a bad thought, that's what scares me; the idea of the story being indefinitely prolonged by the gang becoming tree-ghostbusters. :ganishka:

I'm not totally clear on 'The road of Elves' vs 'The Road of dragons' but what I gather is that the astral world naturally has some small overlaps from time to time, and this explains the reare sightings of elves and other astral creatures, especially in a nature areas like the woods (basically explaining superstition in this world).  The road of Dragons is contained at all times by the Tree, but the Beherit can open a gate to it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but if both the roads are related or go to a similar place, does this have implications on whether the God Hand and IOE, and nature magic and astral creatures like trolls might be related after all through this World Tree? This is a bit unclear to me.

I don't think it's clear to anybody yet, even if one perfectly comprehends the second hand text. Plus, there's probably a lot more to be learned about it. I don't think they go to the same place(s) though. Perhaps the difference between the Road of Elves and Road of Dragons is like a friendly neighborhood street and the Autobahn. =)

Falconia is just a stepping stone? Jesus, Griffith is the most powerful being on Earth with his own kingdom and demon army. How much further can he go? Is there even a world left worth conquering?

As Guts put it, it's about the means, or having the absolute power/authority in and of itself, not the/an end.

The road of dragons is a badass name for the route to the Abyss, I wonder then if there are alternate routes to the abyss that don't involve behirits?

Indeed it is a great name, and it sounds like it.

So Falconia is confirmed to originally be Gaserics city, this was bound to be true, but it's good to have that confirmation.

If I recall it was already pretty much confirmed by the Pontiff.

It seems the merging of the worlds has happened before, Gaeserics conquest wasn't as cut and dried as it looked, he may have followed a similar route to Griffith, with Void as his accomplice in world domination  :void:

I would be surprised if Griffith's situation wasn't wholly unique save for their parallels as conquerors. Plus, it sounds more like it was the other way around and world essentially unmerged from some form of merged state, which raises a number of questions like who or what caused it and why. Did the IoE/GH always want the world this way and it was unmerged to spoil/delay their plans for it, or did they cause all this alleged unmerging and remerging to remake the old world but under their control? The trees/seals, along with magic users like Flora, protecting the world as it was and keeping it separated seems to suggest the former, but it could just as well been the last resort.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Rupert Sinclair on July 21, 2016, 08:53:54 PM

The road of dragons is a badass name for the route to the Abyss, I wonder then if there are alternate routes to the abyss that don't involve beherits?

I believe that's exactly what Ganishka did when he entered the apostle chamber.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: The Beast of Darkness on July 21, 2016, 09:09:22 PM
I want to know what/who caused the world to be in a similar state by the past...
Now that we know that, it opens the door to a lot of theories.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: DragoonBG on July 21, 2016, 09:10:16 PM
Actually, as Aaz pointed out with Casca, it was Guts misunderstanding of Griffith that took us down this road.

Not trying to sway off topic, but wasn't Griffith's inability to co-op with the fact that his (best) friend wanted to find his own desteny/path and he had problem accepting that reality/fact? So instead of putting his egocentric self and weird sense of possession behind and keeping focus on his goal, he let his guard down and that is what lead us down this road (he himself, not Guts choice)? Also, I get that the point of mentioning this is the different kind of understanding Guts and Casca had about Griffith at that time, not trying to be p(r)icky and out of context.

Yep! Very curious to hear about some ancient history now. Hope the old folks will be in the mood for tale-telling. :carcus:
Myabe the Elf King will share more info about that, as there is a chance he himself witnessed it (maybe the guru's did so themself, who knows).

It made impression to me how Danan is keeping her eyes shut all the time, some of the gurus do the same. Myabe they open them only on special occasions like Gedflynn earlier, not sure if there is more to it.
Also I think some of the guru's might have a relative connection to the Cucca's friends and she herself is related to Molda/Morda (sisters?) as they share a familiar sibling characteristics.

Do you think guys it is plausible we see a confrontation with some of the God Hand on the island (I know right, just a hunch)?

Edit:

Thanks for the translation!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 21, 2016, 09:17:50 PM
Chaos isn't a word used to describe a state of balance. It's clear that different planes are not meant to be merged

I wouldn't be so certain if I were you. We don't know whether the worlds were originally merged or not. It remains to be seen.

Myabe the Elf King will share more info about that, as there is a chance he himself witnessed it (maybe the guru's did so themself, who knows).

To be honest, it's just a matter of who will tell us: the Gurus, the King or the Skull Knight.

It made impression to me how Danan is keeping her eyes shut all the time, some of the gurus do the same. Myabe they open them only on special occasions like Gedflynn earlier, not sure if there is more to it.

I wouldn't care too much if I were you. It's a stylistic thing, a trait of character. Same thing with Serpico for example.

Also I think some of the guru's might have a relative connection to the Cucca's friends and she herself is related to Molda/Morda (sisters?) as they share a familiar sibling characteristics.

Hmm. I'm not particularly convinced. The girls just both have black hair, that's a very light connexion. Unless it's stated directly in the manga, I would assume they're not blood relatives.

Do you think guys it is plausible we see a confrontation with some of the God Hand on the island (I know right, just a hunch)?

I've speculated about a possible appearance from one of them before. Who knows?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Griffith on July 21, 2016, 09:33:39 PM
Not trying to sway off topic, but wasn't Griffith's inability to co-op with the fact that his (best) friend wanted to find his own desteny/path and he had problem accepting that reality/fact? So instead of putting his egocentric self and weird sense of possession behind and keeping focus on his goal, he let his guard down and that is what lead us down this road (he himself, not Guts choice)? Also, I get that the point of mentioning this is the different kind of understanding Guts and Casca had about Griffith at that time, not trying to be p(r)icky and out of context.

Are you accusing me of victim blaming Guts for what happened? Anyway, it was just a manner of speaking. :guts:

Do you think guys it is plausible we see a confrontation with some of the God Hand on the island (I know right, just a hunch)?

I proposed (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=15022.msg241214#msg241214) they all show up! :slan: :ubik: :void:  :femto:  (http://www.skullknight.net/images/emoticons/conradtest.gif)
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: DragoonBG on July 21, 2016, 09:57:18 PM
Hmm. I'm not particularly convinced. The girls just both have black hair, that's a very light connexion. Unless it's stated directly in the manga, I would assume they're not blood relatives.

There is something between them, like how Cucca, always reacts to her (a type of scolding). I guess its more a feeling than something in particular I can extract from what we know thus far :).

I've speculated about a possible appearance from one of them before. Who knows?
I'd love to read it if you have a direction link :), thanks. Also have to say you are probably single handedly the most informative and interesting person I've ever red commenting and talking about Berserk. Just to throw (some praise :P) it out there, I'm sure you hear that often, but I'm new here and I think it's ok to say it (I've been reading the forum for a quite some time and appreciate all the people's thoughts and views).

Are you accusing me of victim blaming Guts for what happened? Anyway, it was just a manner of speaking. :guts:
I don't know maybe I misunderstood :(. I mean, I'm sure there exist people who might find Guts is guilty for all that transpired after he left. Anyway my bad.

I proposed (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=15022.msg241214#msg241214) they all show up! :slan: :ubik: :void:  :femto:  (http://www.skullknight.net/images/emoticons/conradtest.gif)
Haha :).
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Tripas on July 21, 2016, 10:01:31 PM
I love how this series answer questions while adding a lot of new refreshing questions and expanding more its great lore. Awesome episode, like always.

Regarding the "roads" and the World Tree, it's interesting to note that not all the forests have been destroyed. Maybe when that happens the "chaos" Ged talks about is the aforementioned Age of Darkness (if we don't consider that the world in its current state is actually that). And maybe and only maybe, the remaining seals are the final key for the complete release of the God Hand upon the world, if they don't walk the earth yet. Thinking of it, our missing and beloved immortal could be doing a little job :zodd:

In retrospect I wonder what role had Skull Knight in all of this. Can we assume he was trying to protect the seals? Why did he hide Femto's intentions from Guts and Schierke?

I can't wait for this to continue!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: __Bonfire__ on July 22, 2016, 12:06:39 AM
At the end does it says till next time or 20- something/August?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Androyd on July 22, 2016, 12:25:05 AM
At the end does it says till next time or 20- something/August?

Young Animal 17 - August 26th

I imagine we'll be getting monthly, or close to monthly releases for awhile. After all, volume 39 was already indicated as coming in 2017. So we need, what, at least nine episodes for that to come to fruition?  :carcus:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 22, 2016, 02:28:49 AM
We got several big answers in this episode, understood thanks to Puella and Aazealh's work. My reply is super late, but it's honestly the first chance I've had to collect my thoughts on this massive episode and the implications of it. I'll just be highlighting some of the bigger developments and offering my thoughts on them.

One of the largest pieces of news was the explanation of the connection between the spiritual trees and the world spiral tree, hinted at in the previous episode. The trees were siphoning power from the world tree. But with them removed, it shines brilliantly throughout all worlds. But it goes deeper than that:

Quote
"And by protecting the land, they prevent the balance of the real world and astral world from tipping. They think it's their duty. They tell her that her teacher was also one of those magicians. "

This explains a lot that might not be immediately obvious. First, this was Flora's role on the continent, apart from her brethren. Whether she had another reason for leaving the island is unknown, but watching over the tree was her duty. Second, this establishes that the spiritual trees' usage as a defense against the world tree's power had to be nurtured and cared for actively, implying that THAT is the process of "sealing" mentioned by Ged in the last episode, negating my theory that such trees and thus seals, had existed since the beginning of time. Leading us to another revelation:

Quote
"So the ancient chaos when the real world and the astral world are mixed together is going to come back."

This is huge. It confirms that the ancient world WAS like the current world: A mixture of the astral and physical worlds. You may have heard Aaz and I debate this over the years. We were always on the fence about this. Well, now we know! But, were such seals erected over the last 1,000 years, or prior to that? Unknown. But given the scope of the change in the world being described, this could be our first nugget of Berserk history that predates the crumbling of Gaiseric's empire.

Quote
"The small one is called "the road of elves" and it's connected to shallow ponds in the astral world. Sometimes that causes a child to get lost in the forest."

Reminds me of so-called "Fairy Roads/Paths" in British and Irish folklore. Paths in countrysides that connected the human and fairy realms.

Quote
"He revived a giant ancient city at the foot of the world tree. While the world is becoming chaotic, ironically only the base of the giant tree stands out like a typhoon's eye. It has become a land that repel evil spirits, thanks to the gentle spiritual power that land is full of. So now it has indeed become a normal country where humans can live peaceful lives".

This shouldn't surprise anyone, but it does confirm in detail what we had assessed several years ago about the power of the world spiral tree, and how it was manipulated to benefit Griffith's aims.

Quote
Ged reflects: "To take a country, or more precisely to establish his own country. The whole world himself... It's helpless. Though he doesn't care about the means to reach his goal." Guts says that it's a bit different, it's the other way around. "To Griffith, the goal is about the means. And then says that "he hasn't changed at all. To acquire his country is just a passing point. He's the Falcon who flies as far as he can go, towards the highest possible goal. This is the Falcon, Griffith."

Surprise! Griffith isn't going to settle for a country! Most of us have known that Griffith's ambitions were always larger, and that the pursuit of his kingdom was the tallest order he could dream of as a man. But it's very nice to see Guts saying it in such a dramatic fashion. And of course, we get the (not so) dramatic reveal to his companions about his significant former friend. This scene also sets up Guts' value to the Gurus, and really to all the inhabitants of the island: His special connection with Griffith, who has become the de facto leader of the evil order that's literally tearing the world apart.   

Will this discussion spill over into 346, where Guts expounds a bit more to his companions about the state of Casca, Griffith, himself, and his journey? Here's hoping. The timing makes sense now more than it ever has.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Truder on July 22, 2016, 02:49:32 AM
Oh, and a pretty huge double-sided poster of the manga/anime. (http://m.imgur.com/PkrNfVy)

Nice! anybody know how I can purchase individual issues online? I really want that poster. I cant find a store nearby that sells it, and I cant figure out how to do it from the Young Animal website.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Arvin on July 22, 2016, 02:59:15 AM
As usual thanks for the summary guys.

Maybe not a very welcoming type of remark lately, but I can't help but get some strong norse mythology vibes from this episode.

It seems like the World Tree was always a thing and that the spiritual trees were just keeping it contained and the astral world at bay. Witches like Flora were guardians, who also harnassed the strange properties of it into magic, like some type of nature magic based Scientists. Pretty cool actually, and it explains why magic users are so rare; they apparently can only be found near these trees, because the trees influence their power and knowledge of magic.

Your comment as well as the description of the guardian witches and magic users carrying research in the forests of spirit tree (that seem to have a parasitic relationship with the World Tree branches) reminded me a bit of Odin's episode to seek the knowledge and powers of the magical runes at the branches of Yggdrasil. The resemblance is more on an aesthetic-conceptual level (the purposes and of course the ordeal of the tale being quite different), but I find it interesting enough to be worth mentioning.

Also regarding that point, I was re-reading some parts of Volume 24 in the last few days after reading episode 344, and with the assumption (now confirmed) that Flora was one such guardian of one of those forests of spiritual trees, it striked me how she felt responsible for the ongoing events at that point (appearance of trolls into the corporeal world): case in point, even before addressing Guts party, she made sure to prioritise Morgan's story. She couldn't fix the issue by herself, so she had to delegate the task to Schierke as her student and even making a bargain with Guts (in exchange for the talismans) for them to help her. Given her illustrated role in this episode, I found that very consistent and interesting to put in perspective.

The other element in this episode that gave me a Norse mythos vibe, even though I might be reaching a bit more with this one, is the naming used to addresss this sort of phenomenom: "road of dragons" going by the summary. Surely it's looking more metaphorical than anything right now, but given some of the story connections being made with the World Tree and the vortex and/or abyss, and having in mind the parallel with Yggdrasil, the World Tree of nordic mythology, I can't help but remind of the dragon-serpent that lives gnawing at the bottom of its roots, Nidhogg. I'm sure this isn't particularly new either, but as it's a new (and very curious) term from this episode and given the vibes I was getting, I found it too interesting to leave unmentioned.

Relating to these new described phenomenoms in this episode, "road of dragons" and "road of elves", I'm reminded of another episode I happened to have covered in my selective re-read: episode 177 - "The Rent World" going by DH's edition. We see a situation that seems much similar, if not the phenomenom itself being illustrated when the kids notice how the forest they were so familiar with started to look or feel different/strange as of late. Although the scene didn't involve a night of moonlight (there seemed to still have broad daylight in the scene, covered by large dark clouds), I assume the corresponding trigger to its occurrence was Griffith/Femto's appearance and how that also affected the world, as he actually happened to just pass/fly by the kids in the forest at the back of Zodd. Actually that there was broad daylight to be seen probably reinforces the point of how much his coming to the corporeal world affected the balance. Later in that scene, we see what seems to be an elf folk in the tree opening, much like it's illustrated in this episode.

As for other impressions, I think it's nice and interesting to see what seems to be (or at least so far portrayed as) a young adult in Danan at the place, it's something I saw people thought about in the previous episode thread since all we saw were mostly kids in the island so far. And I love the way Morda has been just laying there in the sidelines, relaxed and just listening to all this important discussion with her face half covered by her hat. Looks pretty badass and reminds me a bit of the demeanor of young Guts in a way (mercenary/Band of the Falcon Guts, just feels like something he would do).

Well, right now I just can't wait to get a good read of a reliable translation for this episode. Reading these nice bits concerning the world building and letting them sink in, have my take on it and see how else they expand what else we know.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Kaladin on July 22, 2016, 03:19:25 AM
Nice! anybody know how I can purchase individual issues online? I really want that poster. I cant find a store nearby that sells it, and I cant figure out how to do it from the Young Animal website.

It's  This Issue (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/NEOBK-1940196)

Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Truder on July 22, 2016, 03:34:17 AM
thanks! :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Oburi on July 22, 2016, 05:30:57 AM

The gurus go on: "Now almost all forests of spiritual trees around the world have been burned to ashes. Because of that, the world tree got more power. So the ancient chaos when the real world and the astral world are mixed together is going to come back." Ged says that now, he wants to ask a question to the man in black, who has a deep relation to him: "Who the hell is the Falcon of Light? Can you tell me what he wants to do by twisting the world like that? What desire led him to be reborn as a Guardian Angel of Desire?"


So this confirms that the burning down of Flora's tree wasn't an isolated incident. Griffith probably sent out many groups of Apostles to many locations around the world to burn down spiritual trees. I guess Flora was singled out in particular (possibly because of the armor or the connection to Skullknight) because both Zodd and Grunbeld showed up.

I love the Guardian Angel of Desire line. Brings me back to the early episodes.

Of course, thanks to Aaz and Puella!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Tama on July 22, 2016, 05:50:28 AM
I love this episode, it brings so much to the table that we either weren't aware of or cemented facts about how we view the history and world of Berserk. Thank you Aazealh and Puella for the summary and translation, as well as Walter and Griffith for more insight on what's revealed.

Thinking back to when I've read the sections with Flora over the course of my re-reads, I never gave much thought to the tree itself. the nature oriented themes were well done and I always thought it was a fun design, but hearing this news I am surprised and glad that it's served a higher purpose. I feel that when we have the full scope of things further in the story, we will look back on other pieces of previous volumes with a different eye and context. I'd be curious to know how many other spiritual trees there were and who protected them, if we get any further back story on that.

The features and designs for some of the new characters like the older sages are so whimsical and appealing. Even though we have been introduced to a number of witches now, all of them have very distinct looks and style, and that's something I admire about Miura and his drawings. Danan is especially cute with her wardrobe and hat accessory.

Guts' description of Griffith's ambition was perfect, a powerful scene and it will be interesting to hear what else he has to say. I am hoping that Guts will elaborate more to his friends about his past, although maybe it will still happen off screen. Another thing I've been thinking about is if we will see the return of Skull Knight before or after the process of curing Casca has occurred, I feel like he will show himself eventually on the island at some point, but maybe it's far off.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 22, 2016, 09:19:30 AM
I'd love to read it if you have a direction link :), thanks. Also have to say you are probably single handedly the most informative and interesting person I've ever red commenting and talking about Berserk. Just to throw (some praise :P) it out there, I'm sure you hear that often, but I'm new here and I think it's ok to say it (I've been reading the forum for a quite some time and appreciate all the people's thoughts and views).

There's not much to see, but here is a link to one occurrence where I talked about it. (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14851.msg238045#msg238045) And thank you for the praise, I appreciate it. :SK:

Regarding the "roads" and the World Tree, it's interesting to note that not all the forests have been destroyed. Maybe when that happens the "chaos" Ged talks about is the aforementioned Age of Darkness (if we don't consider that the world in its current state is actually that). And maybe and only maybe, the remaining seals are the final key for the complete release of the God Hand upon the world, if they don't walk the earth yet. Thinking of it, our missing and beloved immortal could be doing a little job :zodd:

Indeed, the question we should ask ourselves is whether they all need to be destroyed or not. Does it matter anymore? I'm not sure. And are the rest of the God Hand still unable to move freely, or have we just not seen them yet? Episode 306 seemed to imply they had been brought into the world.

In retrospect I wonder what role had Skull Knight in all of this. Can we assume he was trying to protect the seals? Why did he hide Femto's intentions from Guts and Schierke?

Oh I think the Skull Knight's been straightforward on that count: he wants to destroy the God Hand. When he was at Flora's place, he wanted to avoid her the indignity of being butchered by an apostle. On top of Ganishka, he was trying to kill Femto.

Most of us have known that Griffith's ambitions were always larger, and that the pursuit of his kingdom was the tallest order he could dream of as a man. [...] This scene also sets up Guts' value to the Gurus, and really to all the inhabitants of the island: His special connection with Griffith, who has become the de facto leader of the evil order that's literally tearing the world apart.

Yes, one of the things I really liked about this episode is how despite the invaluable experience and incommensurable knowledge of the gurus compared to a guy like Guts, he is still relevant because he was at the heart of it all. He was in the trenches and witnessed the events first hand. He personally knew the mysterious big bad guy before he was what he is. Just like Rickert's past with Griffith is what allowed him to see through the bullshit and slap him in the face, Guts' past and experience makes him a man who counts, even when faced with people who should dwarf him in that regard. I really, greatly appreciate that. I think Miura's a genius to have constructed the scene and the discussion that way.

Will this discussion spill over into 346, where Guts expounds a bit more to his companions about the state of Casca, Griffith, himself, and his journey? Here's hoping. The timing makes sense now more than it ever has.

What's sure is it's coming, and if it's not in 346 it'll be soon enough afterwards. Although, at the risk of upsetting those to whom this is apparently what mattered most in this episode, I don't think Guts being the hundred man slayer will in itself be that big of a deal, other than to Isidro of course. Rather, who Casca was will surely be a shock to the group (especially Farnese), given her present condition (and I think it would make sense for them to know before they take her to be cured).

I'm also not sure Guts will go into detail about the sacrifice and the Eclipse (the gurus appear to know about that already), which is what would likely prove to be the most horrifying (and revealing) moment to his companions. However mentioning it at this point (in any capacity) would have the advantage of Farnese, Serpico and Azan being able to tie it to the "red lake" and the Holy See's prophecy, which could then prompt the gurus (or even Schierke) to expound upon it, maybe even revealing where that prophecy came from.

I guess Flora was singled out in particular (possibly because of the armor or the connection to Skullknight) because both Zodd and Grunbeld showed up.

In those episodes, Grunbeld explains that he requested to be part of the mission to prove his loyalty to the Falcon. But yeah, they clearly considered her a threat (and I don't think it was because of the armor).

I love the Guardian Angel of Desire line. Brings me back to the early episodes.

Yeah I also really liked that. Between that kind of namedropping and the fact Gedflynn just casually told Guts about the beherit in his pouch and then asked him directly about his personal experience with Griffith, you can tell these Great Gurus aren't fucking around.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 22, 2016, 01:46:27 PM
Miura's comment for this episode:

Quote from: Miura
The third episode of the animation was an original scenario created for the TV series, so the dog apostle, a very minor character, got a big breakthrough.

Thanks should go to IncantatioN for snapping a picture of his Young Animal, and to puella for the translation.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 22, 2016, 02:12:20 PM
 :ganishka: Ohh so it was a dog apostle all along — after all these years! Thanks IncantatioN and Puella!
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 22, 2016, 02:30:14 PM
:ganishka: Ohh so it was a dog apostle all along — after all these years! Thanks IncantatioN and Puella!

Yep! I guess in retrospect his snout is indeed more dog-like. Though to be honest he's kind of a mess. :void:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: DragoonBG on July 22, 2016, 02:45:37 PM
There's not much to see, but here is a link to one occurrence where I talked about it. (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14851.msg238045#msg238045) And thank you for the praise, I appreciate it. :SK:

It was a great read (the whole thread). If anyone missed it I recomend cheking it out.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: ApostleBob on July 22, 2016, 03:37:12 PM

Yes, one of the things I really liked about this episode is how despite the invaluable experience and incommensurable knowledge of the gurus compared to a guy like Guts, he is still relevant because he was at the heart of it all. He was in the trenches and witnessed the events first hand. He personally knew the mysterious big bad guy before he was what he is. Just like Rickert's past with Griffith is what allowed him to see through the bullshit and slap him in the face, Guts' past and experience makes him a man who counts, even when faced with people who should dwarf him in that regard. I really, greatly appreciate that. I think Miura's a genius to have constructed the scene and the discussion that way.
 (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=14851.msg238045#msg238045)

I agree, this was one of the coolest and most unexpected things. And it just fits so naturally. It's easy to think that Guts is kind of this mere human who's swept up into this insanely big cosmic power struggle in this world among demi-gods, witches and wizards and entire kingdoms. But he was there at the very beginning with the Big Bad. So was Casca. They were the only survivors to his birth and have more inside knowledge than most. Hell, while the gurus have probably studied apostles and God Hand in books and visions, Guts has been interacting with them directly for years. He can tell them first hand what works and doesn't. And the Brand itself might present a unique opportunity for them. He and Casca are probably the only living people with these connections to the astral world. Whether they continue to have significance after the world merge remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Grifth on July 22, 2016, 09:42:21 PM
Beautiful issue! just a quick question is miura drawing digital now? because these last 2 issues seem to have a change in style!   :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Bender on July 22, 2016, 09:42:34 PM
"It can't be!! The man I've respected, the 100 man slayer, the strongest man of the Band of the Falcon! You're also an acquaintance of his, Guts?! Awesome, please introduce him to me!"

Too funny.  Thanks for the summery.  I am really looking forward to a complete translation. 

Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Mangetsu on July 22, 2016, 10:05:53 PM
Beautiful issue! just a quick question is miura drawing digital now? because these last 2 issues seem to have a change in style!   :ubik:

It is possible that he is using digital programs for screentoning or other small stuff, but if you look at his normal line work you can clearly see the strokes of a g pen. Of course Miura also still uses a brush and a maru pen, looking at the hair of the characters or at much thinner lines shows that.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Eluvei on July 22, 2016, 10:59:37 PM
Of course Miura also still uses a brush and a maru pen, looking at the hair of the characters or at much thinner lines shows that.

I'm not so sure about this. There's a new wobbliness to some brush/brush pen-looking thick lines that looks very typical of digital lineart, and that also looks a lot like the wobbliness found on his digital paintings from the latest volume. Not to mention the slight change in style, which could mean he's adapting to new tools, and which happened around the same time he first showed his digital paintings. To be honest, I was pretty sure 344 was entirely digital (for some reason Gedflynn's face makes the use of a round brush with pressure sensitivity extremely obvious, look at his nostrils), but this time I don't know, maybe it's both. These filtered scans don't help.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 23, 2016, 12:32:45 PM
I'm not so sure about this. There's a new wobbliness to some brush/brush pen-looking thick lines that looks very typical of digital lineart, and that also looks a lot like the wobbliness found on his digital paintings from the latest volume. Not to mention the slight change in style, which could mean he's adapting to new tools, and which happened around the same time he first showed his digital paintings. To be honest, I was pretty sure 344 was entirely digital (for some reason Gedflynn's face makes the use of a round brush with pressure sensitivity extremely obvious, look at his nostrils), but this time I don't know, maybe it's both. These filtered scans don't help.
I would love to hear more from someone who has experience with these kinds of programs, so I created a sidebar thread here:  http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=15089.msg242597#msg242597
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 23, 2016, 01:34:18 PM
Quote
Falconia is just a stepping stone? Jesus, Griffith is the most powerful being on Earth with his own kingdom and demon army. How much further can he go? Is there even a world left worth conquering?

Conquering entire world? Beyond even that? Striking against god himself.... ?  :schnoz:I mean, we only assume Femto/Griffith is going to continue to play alongside the other side, what if he's playing it as long as it suits him? Guts says it perfectly in the last chapter, "He's the Falcon who flies as far as he can go, towards the highest possible goal. ( thanks Aaz/Puella) "  Is being a God hand member truly the highest point? Will Griffith be satisfied by being equal to other God hand members?  If he's the saviour, what are the other god hand's roles now that they're materialized/will be materialized? Can we assume they'll support Griffith in steering mankind to whatever goal Griffith has envisioned for them ( since IOE pretty much said he's going to decide their fate ), or will they have their own ideas as what to do ( so far they worked together to manipulate events for Griffith's reincarnation but who's to say its going to be like that forever ). Are we going to, at some point , see a clash of ideals? Or will they remain in shadows and support IOE's chosen champion?

Its not like Griffith's desire is the only one that matters, we have other 4 God Hands who were former humans as well and have ties to humanity that should manifest in their own vision/desire of/for the world. So why is it Griffith that gets all the fame ( aside being second main character ofc )? Not that I think they'll start to suddenly pull each other's hair, but I guess Im eager to see their background and what motivated them in life to become such grand figures. It ought to be especially interesting now that we might get to see their human forms ( and get an answer as to what the hell is going on with Void's weird skin-mouth mask )  :???:






Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Salem on July 23, 2016, 02:05:05 PM
I'm getting the same wonderful feels as I did the first read at Floras.  We're gonna get some fantastic world building dialogue that will no doubt solve some questions that have gone unanswered for years.

What a time to be a fan!  I personally am loving the island and all of its new and fascinating inhabitants.   :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: jackson_hurley on July 23, 2016, 02:08:55 PM
What I'm wondering about the God Hand members now that they are in the physical world (or soon to be) is : will they keep their god hand look but with a physical presence or are they gonna turn like Femto/Griffith aka hiding in a human shell?

Griffith :" These are my new advisers..."  :ubik:  :void:  :slan:

I personally think that Griffith will be the only one looking human. But I got curious about it.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 23, 2016, 08:21:37 PM
I mean, we only assume Femto/Griffith is going to continue to play alongside the other side, what if he's playing it as long as it suits him? [...] Is being a God hand member truly the highest point? Will Griffith be satisfied by being equal to other God hand members?

Realistically, I don't think Femto could possibly turn on the Idea of Evil. They're not (at all) on the same level, and the difference is such that I don't think it would even fit his ambition. The Idea of Evil is literally a part of all mankind, an entity embodying a concept. It's too alien. And it's also what gave him his power, and I would expect that much like apostles can't really stand up to the God Hand, the God Hand can't stand up to what it's the hand of. But those considerations aren't even necessary if we follow the broad outline of how episode 83 defined their relationship. The Idea of Evil essentially created Femto to be what he is and to desire what he desires. He is its messenger and carries its will. His life was and still is the life it chose for him.

But anyway, regarding his ambition, it's not hard to think of more. He could covet total world domination. Every inch of the Earth. And he could also desire absolute control over mankind, not just as a king, but on a deep intellectual and spiritual level. Ranks upon ranks of lined up soldiers waiting for his command, busy workers scurrying everywhere to fulfill his wishes... Like ants obeying their queen.

If he's the saviour, what are the other god hand's roles now that they're materialized/will be materialized? Can we assume they'll support Griffith in steering mankind to whatever goal Griffith has envisioned for them ( since IOE pretty much said he's going to decide their fate ), or will they have their own ideas as what to do ( so far they worked together to manipulate events for Griffith's reincarnation but who's to say its going to be like that forever ). Are we going to, at some point , see a clash of ideals? Or will they remain in shadows and support IOE's chosen champion? Its not like Griffith's desire is the only one that matters, we have other 4 God Hands who were former humans as well and have ties to humanity that should manifest in their own vision/desire of/for the world. So why is it Griffith that gets all the fame ( aside being second main character ofc )?

That is a good question and you half-answer it yourself, but you also give too much weight to what the Idea of Evil tells Griffith in episode 83 (which isn't canon, obligatory reminder). It doesn't tell him he'll decide the fate of mankind, but that his actions, whatever they may be, will be suitable. That is because his desire is Its desire, and It is a part of mankind. And this is also why the God Hand can work as a team. They each have their own desires, but those in turn fit the Idea of Evil's will. That is why and how they can work together. And I believe it perfectly fits all the story's developments so far. Femto was the one chosen to be incarnated, and the others supported him. But as you saw, his objective was not merely to become king of Midland. He opened a giant rift in the world, and through the rift his kindred came pouring. It's not a coincidence.

Obviously, we don't yet know what their goal is. Neither the global master plan hatched by the Idea of Evil, nor each of their individual objectives. But I'm quite sure that somehow, all of their personal interests will neatly fit together to help achieve the bigger scheme. That is why they are, literally, the Hand of God. Through their own desires, they do Its bidding. One thing to keep in mind is that Griffith is defined by his insatiable ambition, his desire to rule, but what of the others? Ubik seems to have a keen interest in the mind itself. Slan is fascinated by emotions and especially the baser instincts. We don't have all the details, but I believe this complementarity of sorts makes it possible for them to all be satisfied at once. And if not, well... that only makes Guts' work easier. :beast:

get an answer as to what the hell is going on with Void's weird skin-mouth mask

I-it's..it's not a mask. :magni:

I'm getting the same wonderful feels as I did the first read at Floras.  We're gonna get some fantastic world building dialogue that will no doubt solve some questions that have gone unanswered for years. What a time to be a fan!  I personally am loving the island and all of its new and fascinating inhabitants.   :ubik:

Yep, it's only just starting, the real heavy stuff is yet to come. :guts:

What I'm wondering about the God Hand members now that they are in the physical world (or soon to be) is : will they keep their god hand look but with a physical presence or are they gonna turn like Femto/Griffith aka hiding in a human shell? [...] I personally think that Griffith will be the only one looking human. But I got curious about it.

It's also possible that their presence and influence in the corporeal world may be reinforced without them having a body of flesh like Femto does.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aguirre on July 24, 2016, 06:06:33 PM
This episode is an absolute treasure trove of information! Thanks for the summary.  :daiba:

Slightly off-topic--the filter used on the Korean scans is dreadful. Totally kills all the fine lines of Miura's art. Sort of feels like looking at the Mona Lisa while slightly squinting your eyes. 
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 25, 2016, 02:06:52 AM
(http://skullknight.net/podcast/podcast77.jpg) (http://skullknight.net/podcast/Podcast77.mp3)
Episode 77: Great Gurus (Ep. 345) (http://skullknight.net/podcast/Podcast77.mp3) (1h 54m)
We sit down with a bunch of old people to talk about a bunch of old people in Elfhelm for our review of Episode 345, including the secrets of Berserk's ancient world and Guts' value to the future. We even make some time at the end of the show to talk about the new anime with a guest who hasn't yet been exposed to its particular brand of terrible.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Defengar on July 25, 2016, 10:07:25 PM
Falconia is just a stepping stone? Jesus, Griffith is the most powerful being on Earth with his own kingdom and demon army. How much further can he go? Is there even a world left worth conquering?



Griffith, like many conquerors of history, is not satisfied after accomplishing his initial aims, and with his transformation, he is essentially an inhuman sociopath wearing a facade on top of that.

My theory is that his goal now is to use Falconia as a giant sacrificial altar to achieve even greater power; sacrificing almost the entire rest of the human species (and maybe even his army of Apostles) during a third eclipse event in order to transcend the God Hand, to become a true "god" himself that can wield omnipotent power over reality and magic.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 25, 2016, 10:20:17 PM
Griffith, like many conquerors of history, is not satisfied after accomplishing his initial aims, and with his transformation, he is essentially an inhuman sociopath wearing a facade on top of that.

My theory is that his goal now is to use Falconia as a giant sacrificial altar to achieve even greater power; sacrificing almost the entire rest of the human species (and maybe even his army of Apostles) during a third eclipse event in order to transcend the God Hand, to become a true "god" himself that can wield omnipotent power over reality and magic.

If Falconia, and thus its residents, are merely a stepping stone for him transcending the God Hand, then why would they make valid sacrifices...? Particulary if you regard him as a sociopath (he's not -- he's a demigod who shed his emotions), it wouldn't work by the rules of what makes a sacrifice.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Defengar on July 25, 2016, 10:26:37 PM
What I'm wondering about the God Hand members now that they are in the physical world (or soon to be) is : will they keep their god hand look but with a physical presence or are they gonna turn like Femto/Griffith aka hiding in a human shell?

Griffith :" These are my new advisers..."  :ubik:  :void:  :slan:

I personally think that Griffith will be the only one looking human. But I got curious about it.

I don't think the world (ours or Berserk's lol) can handle a Slan in human form.

If Falconia, and thus its residents, are merely a stepping stone for him transcending the God Hand, then why would they make valid sacrifices...? Particulary if you regard him as a sociopath (he's not -- he's a demigod who shed his emotions), it wouldn't work by the rules of what makes a sacrifice.

I mean, there's always the chance that there are other ways of going about sacrificing, especially on this scale. Did anyone see the Ganishka thing coming? That was like watching the end of 2001 Space Odyssey! Also if he kills almost all of mankind, the idea of evil (if it's even still a thing) would become massively diminished. A spiritual power vacuum could potentially happen that Griffith sees himself as filling...

And yeah, he's not technically a sociopath since he's not a human, but as an entity he and most of the Apostles we have seen in general display nearly all of the symptoms of being a sociopath: http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/sociopath-symptoms.html

Maybe I'm reading to much into this, but Griffith is giving me a lot of vibes similar to Father from Fullmetal Alchemist.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 26, 2016, 12:31:16 AM
I mean, there's always the chance that there are other ways of going about sacrificing, especially on this scale. Did anyone see the Ganishka thing coming? That was like watching the end of 2001 Space Odyssey! Also if he kills almost all of mankind, the idea of evil (if it's even still a thing) would become massively diminished. A spiritual power vacuum could potentially happen that Griffith sees himself as filling...

What Ganishka did wasn't a sacrifice. And what you propose doesn't sound very likely -- Griffith would rule over the... what, 5% left of the planet's population? That doesn't sound like a doable endgame for Berserk.

Quote
And yeah, he's not technically a sociopath since he's not a human, but as an entity he and most of the Apostles we have seen in general display nearly all of the symptoms of being a sociopath: http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/sociopath-symptoms.html

I think it would be very limiting, if not misleading, to subscribe to that way of thinking about these supernatural beings in a fantasy story. Were they once human? Certainly, but I think their lack of empathy for others doesn't weigh as heavily on their motivations as all the other factors at play.

Quote
Maybe I'm reading to much into this, but Griffith is giving me a lot of vibes similar to Father from Fullmetal Alchemist.

Meaning... what? That he has to abide by that character's arc?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Defengar on July 26, 2016, 02:36:17 AM
What Ganishka did wasn't a sacrifice. And what you propose doesn't sound very likely -- Griffith would rule over the... what, 5% left of the planet's population? That doesn't sound like a doable endgame for Berserk.

I think it would be very limiting, if not misleading, to subscribe to that way of thinking about these supernatural beings in a fantasy story. Were they once human? Certainly, but I think their lack of empathy for others doesn't weigh as heavily on their motivations as all the other factors at play.

Meaning... what? That he has to abide by that character's arc?

Ruling over the remnants of humanity is inconsequential compared to ruling the laws of reality on Earth. Ever read "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"?

 As for what I mean, I mean I think that the very existence and ruling of humans is probably inconsequential to him compared to his new goals in the long run. New "subjects" would be trivial to create if he transcends to a state of borderline omnipotence. If you are God, does it really matter that you banish countless millions of Angels and souls to Hell? Absolutely not. Also there is nothing wrong in drawing parallels between characters in fiction that bear similarities.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Sikorsky87 on July 26, 2016, 03:46:06 AM
Great episode. I especially enjoyed the explanation of the "great trees".
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: pav327 on July 26, 2016, 08:21:38 AM
The Tree of Life/Helix Tree binds all the worlds together, but if it's too strong it pulls them too close together so they overlap and create chaos. Is this how it works? Does the Tree itself called the Dragon's Road? Or it has the Dragon's Road somewhere at it's base similar to how Elfin Forrest was illustrated?

Did I understood correctly that the Dragon's Road is a separate phenomenon and could appear or be opened not only via Beherit activation or Helix Tree appearance? The concept of the Dragon's Road kind of makes the creation of the first Godhand member a bit more comprehensible. The first Godhand member could have found the entrance or was able to open the Dragon's Road and had the first contact with IoE (either became an apostle straight away as a result, or the entrance was "weak" enough to just receive the crimson Beherit). Maybe closing or opening a fissure like that was the reason behind the Gaiseric's Empire Capital destruction. I wonder if Guts will ever go down the Dragon's Road to the Abyss at some point, to meet with the Idea personally? We saw in ep 83 that Griffith appeared before the Idea as his ego body, so I wonder if the Beast of Darkness could get a nice little chat with the Idea at some point?

If the Helix Tree's power could be drained by the Spirit Trees, could some other entity do something similar? I mean feed on it's power. We saw Moonlight Child's ability to enter into the Tree and travel within it and we saw his extraordinary powers. I wonder if he has such abilities because he's just using Femto's powers, or he has a special access to the Tree and this is what gives him his abilities? Could the Tree provide the combined ultimate power from all the worlds that it's connected to? Something like this could be a "deus ex machina" type of thing with the Moonlight Child.

I hope Griffith won't turn out to be "more power because power" type of stereotypical villain and he will have some twist to his goals and motivation in the end. I guess we'll know a bit more about it once he will get married to Charlotte and his wish will be "officially" granted. Hope he will not betray his dream, as he said.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: MrFlibble on July 26, 2016, 08:37:52 AM
If Falconia, and thus its residents, are merely a stepping stone for him transcending the God Hand, then why would they make valid sacrifices...? Particulary if you regard him as a sociopath (he's not -- he's a demigod who shed his emotions), it wouldn't work by the rules of what makes a sacrifice.

Also Griffith is a God Hand, he's the most powerful being in the world, what would he have to gain by transforming again?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Defengar on July 26, 2016, 10:14:38 AM
Also Griffith is a God Hand, he's the most powerful being in the world, what would he have to gain by transforming again?

Perhaps becoming something similar to the Idea of Evil, but not reliant upon the emotions of humans to exist.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 26, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
Griffith, like many conquerors of history, is not satisfied after accomplishing his initial aims

His goals changed when he became Femto, which is only natural. That's all there is to it.

My theory is that his goal now is to use Falconia as a giant sacrificial altar to achieve even greater power; sacrificing almost the entire rest of the human species (and maybe even his army of Apostles) during a third eclipse event in order to transcend the God Hand, to become a true "god" himself that can wield omnipotent power over reality and magic.

Your "theory" doesn't seem to take into account the way sacrifices work to begin with. What you propose is simply not possible within the constraints of the story.

Also if he kills almost all of mankind, the idea of evil (if it's even still a thing) would become massively diminished. A spiritual power vacuum could potentially happen that Griffith sees himself as filling...

That's not how it works. Not only do you not know whether the Idea of Evil would be diminished at all (since it would only mean more souls for the vortex), but it's not like Femto could ever hope to replace it. They're fundamentally very different types of beings. Oh and also the Idea of Evil gave Femto his power, you know? And likely planned the entire life he's been living so far?

I mean I think that the very existence and ruling of humans is probably inconsequential to him compared to his new goals in the long run. New "subjects" would be trivial to create if he transcends to a state of borderline omnipotence. If you are God, does it really matter that you banish countless millions of Angels and souls to Hell?

You don't know what Griffith's goals are. "The ruling of humans is probably inconsequential to him?" I don't think so. Lastly, I don't think you quite understand how "God" works in Berserk either, because the Idea of Evil isn't omnipotent. If it were, there would be no story. Maybe it seeks a kind of omnipotence, but it hasn't reached it yet, and merely "sacrificing" people certainly won't allow Femto to do so himself.

Perhaps becoming something similar to the Idea of Evil, but not reliant upon the emotions of humans to exist.

That's not possible within the story of Berserk as far as we know.

------------

The Tree of Life/Helix Tree

The name is World Spiral Tree. World Helix Tree if you really want, but not "Tree of Life". Use the proper name.

it binds all the worlds together, but if it's too strong it pulls them too close together so they overlap and create chaos. Is this how it works?

No, it's not. The tree goes through the worlds, and it is like a crack in the corporeal world from which the astral world spilled.

Does the Tree itself called the Dragon's Road? Or it has the Dragon's Road somewhere at it's base similar to how Elfin Forrest was illustrated?

The name "road of dragons" refers to a way to reach deep into the Astral World, as opposed to the "road of elves", which allows to reach shallow parts of it. The tree itself is not called the "road of dragons", it is called the World Spiral Tree.

Did I understood correctly that the Dragon's Road is a separate phenomenon and could appear or be opened not only via Beherit activation or Helix Tree appearance?

The name "road of dragons" is a general designation referring to a way to reach deep into the Astral World. From what is implied in this episode, there exist several different ways to travel on this road. A beherit is one. The branches of the tree are another.

The concept of the Dragon's Road kind of makes the creation of the first Godhand member a bit more comprehensible. The first Godhand member could have found the entrance or was able to open the Dragon's Road and had the first contact with IoE (either became an apostle straight away as a result, or the entrance was "weak" enough to just receive the crimson Beherit).

The first member of the God Hand became an apostle? I don't think so. I also don't think learning of the name "road of dragons" changes all that much regarding what we understand of the world. By that I mean that traveling deep within the Astral World wasn't considered impossible before.

Maybe closing or opening a fissure like that was the reason behind the Gaiseric's Empire Capital destruction.

That would have to be a really, really big fissure, on the order of the World Spiral Tree itself. Otherwise I don't see how the scale would match. But even then I'm not convinced. What of the branded corpses, for examples? Clearly there was more to it than what you're proposing.

I wonder if Guts will ever go down the Dragon's Road to the Abyss at some point, to meet with the Idea personally? We saw in ep 83 that Griffith appeared before the Idea as his ego body, so I wonder if the Beast of Darkness could get a nice little chat with the Idea at some point?

Uhhh... The Beast of Darkness isn't Guts' ego. I'm also not sure there would be much of a point to this, or that it would even be possible.

If the Helix Tree's power could be drained by the Spirit Trees, could some other entity do something similar? I mean feed on it's power. We saw Moonlight Child's ability to enter into the Tree and travel within it and we saw his extraordinary powers. I wonder if he has such abilities because he's just using Femto's powers, or he has a special access to the Tree and this is what gives him his abilities? Could the Tree provide the combined ultimate power from all the worlds that it's connected to? Something like this could be a "deus ex machina" type of thing with the Moonlight Child.

The "Boy in the Moonlight" (the proper name) already had those powers before the World Spiral Tree appeared. It is more likely that his already formidable power allows to travel through the tree rather than the opposite.

I hope Griffith won't turn out to be "more power because power" type of stereotypical villain and he will have some twist to his goals and motivation in the end. I guess we'll know a bit more about it once he will get married to Charlotte and his wish will be "officially" granted. Hope he will not betray his dream, as he said.

Griffith hasn't been a stereotypical villain so far, so there's no reason for him to become one in the future. That he is defined by his insatiable ambition is nothing new. That he doesn't just want a kingdom is nothing new. By the same token, merely seeing his marriage with Charlotte is unlikely to shed light on his ulterior motives.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: ABH on July 26, 2016, 11:29:00 AM
What I'm posting isn't necessarily new or innovative but seems to fit the conversation.

When it comes to Griffith's new goal, one thing above creating your own kingdom or even ruling the world to me seems to be the creation of an entirely new one. Which seems to be what the story is getting at for some time. There is a new age dawning - one of darkness - created by Griffith. The reality that people have known for at least 1,000 years is being undone and recreated by Griffith who in turn is making the humans that remain dependent upon him for their safety. That all really ties back into one of the major themes of Berserk - being strong enough to make your own way, live your life as you please, rather than just being dependent or clinging to others.

Griffith's vision seems to fit in perfectly with what the Idea of Evil would want. One would think that it would in fact be stronger in this new world created by Griffith and that the events of the last 1,000 years at least were all set-up to get to this point. If the Holy See is worshiping the Idea of Evil or some version of it, it served the purpose first of weakening the belief in the spirit world and magic which, as we now know, was protecting people from the Astral world. Weakening that belief would have made the current reality/world vulnerable and prepared the way for the age of darkness. Then at least with Griffith's return, it helped to create legitimacy for Griffith as a new ruler. If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil. What we are going to get now is a new reality where the manifestations of evil grow stronger and dominate.

I wonder if the origins of the Holy See don't trace back to those of Void somehow. He has always been something of the prophet type character with even the other God Hand.

I don't know if I believe Griffith is looking to sacrifice the remaining humans gathering in Falconia. He is definitely making them dependent upon him for survival and in turn making himself the center of the new reality. I don't know if I'd rule out the ability of a sacrifice, though. If the original city served as a sacrifice, I would think that Falconia could, as well. It would have significance to Griffith even if it were a stepping stone. Whether that's enough for a sacrifice, I'm not sure. But the idea of replacing the Idea of Evil is flimsy to me and doesn't fit.

Another angle may be that the Idea of Evil is something in the Berserk world that people turn to in their despair. The Apostles and God Hand are all somewhat tragic villains whose lives came apart somehow. The Idea of Evil was what provided at least a chosen few an answer. Its tough to base an entire theory off a now recanted chapter of the story, but what if the Idea of Evil sees as its purpose removing despair, and the means to accomplish that is the creation of a new seemingly utopian world - the one created by Griffith? The world would appear perfect to the ignorant white sheep inhabiting it, but would be pretty empty. You'd be a pathetic, dependent creature with little purpose. Life is easier and seemingly without suffering for those who give in and accept Griffith as their savior. Those who refuse are forced to live in the unstable outside struggling against the monsters who now roam freely.

It would lead to the other odd contrast in Berserk between good and evil. Evil is rarely wholly so, and appears almost magnificent within it. Griffith being the perfect manifestation of that. He is offering salvation, albeit from a disaster he himself created. Whereas Guts is this brutish man who at times comes off more like a monster. He's not chosen by fate, seemingly. He's 'the struggler.'

Post has gone on long enough so wrapping it up here. I don't have great story predictions as much as a general theory of what the goals of Griffith may be and how he serves the Idea of Evil. It is more inline with the ideas above that Griffith is doing his part in its plan. That doesn't preclude destroying the other God Hand. I would imagine that once their purpose has been filled they may all become expendable. The other four may have simply been tools paving the way for Griffith rather than his equals, depending on what you think they represent compared to Griffith. Is he simply the fifth and final one in a line or were the other four prerequisites for his role and whatever he may represent? Griffith is the ruler. Perhaps the others are merely other manifestations of things that lead people to despair and Griffith is the ultimate answer.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Defengar on July 26, 2016, 12:16:25 PM
There is certainly a lot of philosophical subtext to the story.

Guts a Nietzsche ubermensch Vs. Demi-god Griffith and his spirituality linked "Brave New World"
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 26, 2016, 12:27:58 PM
Quote
If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil. What we are going to get now is a new reality where the manifestations of evil grow stronger and dominate.

There are. 4 Elemental Kings.

Quote
He's not chosen by fate, seemingly. He's 'the struggler.'

But his " fate " is to struggle through with sheer determination and willpower. Guts still falls under laws of casuality even if he made turns where he shouldn't have been able. At least for now, we don't know if there's a way to completely remove one from casuality.

Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: pav327 on July 26, 2016, 10:40:13 PM
His goals changed when he became Femto, which is only natural
That he doesn't just want a kingdom is nothing new

But where was this stated?
Griffith said himself (in episode 180 which is actually called "Unchanged") that nothing has changed and that he will not betray his dream. Pretty much everything he did so far was done for sake of achieving his dream.
If you mean that IoE probably has different goals than a kingdom and Femto/Griffith will have to obey and follow, then his words about not betraying his dream will mean that he will oppose IoE if it comes down to it. We know it's possible to go against something that's way above you, as this is one of the main themes of the manga.
I would love to see something like that happen because it would make Griffith not simply a pure evil as Slan said, but a determined strong character that he was the whole time before he was broken by Guts' influence. He went through some revealing experience and now he's renewed and (almost) flawless, but, again, unchanged.
It's not like something like this will redeem his deeds before Guts' eye. :guts:

No, it's not. The tree goes through the worlds, and it is like a crack in the corporeal world from which the astral world spilled.

Crack is something that happens, I got an impression that the Tree always existed and it is what binds worlds together. Binds meaning holds together. I mean Spirit Trees were existed before World's Tree appeared and they drained it's power from the very beginning of the manga, right? And the term "overlapping" came up previously when Schierke talked about astral beings that aren't supposed to exist in the physical world.

I don't really understand how a crack (a break in the matter) could be made weaker or have power at all, let alone having a parasites on it's body. I could understand a concept of three dimensional crack though. But it sounded like the Tree is the reason why all the chaos is happening, but it's not the actual source of the astral "spillage" like Qliphoth was. Sure, this all might not supposed to be understandable by human, but come on.

The first member of the God Hand became an apostle?

I meant of course the human that became the first God Hand member.

I also don't think learning of the name "road of dragons" changes all that much regarding what we understand of the world. By that I mean that traveling deep within the Astral World wasn't considered impossible before.

Um, up to this chapter I always thought that it's unreachable from the physical world, without the Beherit activation, and even Beherit does not take you straight down to the Abyss. Daiba's man-made Beherit is probably the closest thing, but we know that regular people weren't able to visit hell, only Ganishka.
And I guess we saw that the Sword of Actuation could cut through the layers of existence straight to the Vortex, but it was more like a rupture rather than a way that one could just enter.

I think I saw somewhere on this site a scheme of the astral world layers and it was stated that it's possible to go down only 3 layers down from where you're originally stand. Not sure if I remember it correctly or how true it was.

What of the branded corpses, for examples?

They could be the people that took part in a ritual that actually opened the fissure.
This goes back to the speculation about a cult that existed in the Capital and the brands on the foreheads are man-made and the leader of the cult was human Void who was a mage of some sort.

Uhhh... The Beast of Darkness isn't Guts' ego

It's not an evil spirit of any kind - Beast was present inside dwarf's cave in vol 17.
The episode 190 in which Guts goes into the beast mode and bites Casca called "Fangs of Ego".
When Schierke entered Guts' conscious for the first time she saw the Beast and Guts' actual ego inside of it. And Guts' ego acted just like the Beast before Guts remembered himself.
It's an ego of his rage maybe, but it's not like it doesn't belong to Guts' ego. Unless he'll go completely towards a multiple personality disorder. But even then they're inseparable.

The "Boy in the Moonlight" (the proper name) already had those powers before the World Spiral Tree appeared

Shouldn't the proper name be in Japanese? :)
As I said before, my impression was that the World's Tree always existed and now it appeared because it got a lot more power than it had before. I think so mainly because Spirit Trees drained it's power long before it has actually appeared.
I wouldn't bet my money on the Boy feeding off the Tree at this point, but since it was established that the Tree could act as a power source (because it has some immense power that could be drained), it opens an opportunity to utilize such mechanics in the future. Maybe Griffith will be using it instead (to oppose IoE, for example). Or maybe it was just an explanation for the Spirit Trees and that's it.


By the way could it be that those human trees we saw in the previous chapter are man-made Spirit Trees that were created from the mages in order to compensate for destruction of the Spirit Trees? We have seen that there is a very few adults and the village is kind of empty (at least, so far), so maybe that's where most of them went?


Also, I wonder, am I getting downvoted automatically with each post I make?  :schnoz:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2016, 05:13:17 PM
When it comes to Griffith's new goal, one thing above creating your own kingdom or even ruling the world to me seems to be the creation of an entirely new one. Which seems to be what the story is getting at for some time. There is a new age dawning - one of darkness - created by Griffith. The reality that people have known for at least 1,000 years is being undone and recreated by Griffith who in turn is making the humans that remain dependent upon him for their safety. That all really ties back into one of the major themes of Berserk - being strong enough to make your own way, live your life as you please, rather than just being dependent or clinging to others.

I don't know if we can say that this is an "entirely new world", in the sense that this is a fusion between two preexisting "parts" of the world, and that it is a return to a state the world was in during ancient times. Similarly, I don't think Griffith embodies the theme of being strong enough to make your own way without being dependent on others. He failed to achieve his goals, then sacrificed what was most dear to him in exchange for evil power that was bestowed to him by a higher entity that he now serves, directly or indirectly.

If the Holy See is worshiping the Idea of Evil or some version of it, it served the purpose first of weakening the belief in the spirit world and magic which, as we now know, was protecting people from the Astral world.

The Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. I don't think it's meant to be related to the Idea of Evil like that, although I also believe the Holy See's establishment was part of the IoE's scheme.

If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil.

I don't think that comparison is apt. The way Schierke calls for the help of elemental spirits is radically different to how the God Hand, apostles and the Idea of Evil work. These latter entities are powered by human souls, and specifically by the evil of mankind. When they undergo their transcendence, the very soul of an apostle is infused with evil and irremediably changed. That is what gives them their power. It's really a completely different process.

I wonder if the origins of the Holy See don't trace back to those of Void somehow. He has always been something of the prophet type character with even the other God Hand.

It's an interesting question about which I've wondered and speculated myself. I've been convinced for a very long time that the Holy See was created (or at least has been manipulated) by the God Hand as part of their greater scheme. The way it's served Femto after his incarnation is a pretty damning clue to that. But I'm not sure it was necessarily born from a specific human figure like a prophet as opposed to behind the scenes scheming and retroactively incorporating things into an overarching myth. The reason I say so is that it includes a lot of half-truth that originate in the magical study of the world, but that have been twisted to conform to its views. It also, as far as we know, revolves around a central falcon figure that Griffith now embodies, instead of a founding messiah. That being said, we still know so little about it that it's quite possible there was such a key figure in spite of the rest.

I don't know if I'd rule out the ability of a sacrifice, though. If the original city served as a sacrifice, I would think that Falconia could, as well.

We saw that some people were branded, but that doesn't mean "the whole city" was sacrificed. Anyway, I really don't find the idea of Griffith "sacrificing" Falconia likely. It seems a bit ridiculous to me, to be honest. It's just something people say because there was the Eclipse, and since they can't think of anything better it means it must happen again. But I think that'd just be boring and unoriginal.

Another angle may be that the Idea of Evil is something in the Berserk world that people turn to in their despair. The Apostles and God Hand are all somewhat tragic villains whose lives came apart somehow. The Idea of Evil was what provided at least a chosen few an answer. Its tough to base an entire theory off a now recanted chapter of the story, but what if the Idea of Evil sees as its purpose removing despair, and the means to accomplish that is the creation of a new seemingly utopian world - the one created by Griffith? The world would appear perfect to the ignorant white sheep inhabiting it, but would be pretty empty. You'd be a pathetic, dependent creature with little purpose. Life is easier and seemingly without suffering for those who give in and accept Griffith as their savior. Those who refuse are forced to live in the unstable outside struggling against the monsters who now roam freely.

The Idea of Evil isn't really some dark figure people can "turn to", because they don't know it exists. If we stick to what episode 83 tells us, the Idea of Evil was made sentient by people's desire for reasons that would explain all the senseless misery in their lives. To quote it directly: "Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death. Reason why their lives were filled with suffering... Reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge." That doesn't really work with what you're proposing here. That being said, the idea that its ultimate goal is the absolute control of mankind in all respects is something I've myself speculated about, so I agree it is a compelling possibility.

Side note: Berserk uses the term "episodes" to refer to individual issues. "Chapter" is used for collections of episodes, like in the Lost Children chapter.

It would lead to the other odd contrast in Berserk between good and evil. Evil is rarely wholly so, and appears almost magnificent within it. Griffith being the perfect manifestation of that. He is offering salvation, albeit from a disaster he himself created. Whereas Guts is this brutish man who at times comes off more like a monster. He's not chosen by fate, seemingly. He's 'the struggler.'

Evil is pretty clear-cut in Berserk. Griffith is a false savior, and the savaltion he offers from a disaster he helped cause is sure to be a deception in the end. As for Guts, I'm not sure I agree with calling him "brutish", but more importantly you should keep in mind that "struggler" is just a nickname the Skull Knight gave him. It's not some celestial role he fulfills. And no one was really "chosen by fate" either, unless it refers to the Idea of Evil's manipulation of the principle of causality.

I don't have great story predictions as much as a general theory of what the goals of Griffith may be and how he serves the Idea of Evil. It is more inline with the ideas above that Griffith is doing his part in its plan. That doesn't preclude destroying the other God Hand. I would imagine that once their purpose has been filled they may all become expendable. The other four may have simply been tools paving the way for Griffith rather than his equals, depending on what you think they represent compared to Griffith. Is he simply the fifth and final one in a line or were the other four prerequisites for his role and whatever he may represent? Griffith is the ruler. Perhaps the others are merely other manifestations of things that lead people to despair and Griffith is the ultimate answer.

I think serving the Idea of Evil's plan necessarily goes against the notion that Griffith would kill his kindred. The idea that they're all expendable does not shock me, but I think it would have to serve a serious purpose as I doubt they'd agree to it, or that the Idea of Evil would easily waste such precious resources. Furthermore, they've been presented as being mostly equals so far in the story. Femto is their vanguard and has the main role in the corporeal world (which makes sense), but amongst them the de facto leader is Void.

---------

But where was this stated?
Griffith said himself (in episode 180 which is actually called "Unchanged") that nothing has changed and that he will not betray his dream. Pretty much everything he did so far was done for sake of achieving his dream.

The fact he ruthlessly chases his ambition is unchanged, and he did obtain a country of sorts. That's not in question. Femto's actions since he came back into the corporeal world showed better than anything else that his ambition was not just "to be king". Which is why he led Ganishka to undertake the actions he did, and then made it so Fantasia happened. You don't need a statement to see that. It just makes sense. The goals of a being who transcends mankind just aren't the same as those of a man. Incidentally, me and a lot of other people have been saying it for 10+ years. Were we just lucky that it happens to be the case? No, it just made sense. You know, you could say that even now, just because Guts has said it, it doesn't mean it's true. But if you look at how it was all set up, I think it become quickly evident that it was always meant to be like that.

If you mean that IoE probably has different goals than a kingdom and Femto/Griffith will have to obey and follow, then his words about not betraying his dream will mean that he will oppose IoE if it comes down to it. We know it's possible to go against something that's way above you, as this is one of the main themes of the manga.

That's not what I mean, that's not what I think will happen, and I don't think you properly apply Berserk's themes to the situation if you think Griffith destroying the Idea of Evil to stay true to his dream is something that will happen in the story. That the Idea of Evil has bigger goals than Griffith having a kingdom is so obvious I don't even know what to tell you. That Griffith is willingly taking part in that plan, and he himself has bigger goals than just having a kingdom also seems pretty obvious given what has happened in the story. Griffith didn't need to create Fantasia in order to have a kingdom. And Falconia isn't just "a kingdom", it's a giant city-state that magically appeared at the root of the World Spiral Tree where nearly all of mankind is amassed and reveres its leader. Finally, as Guts himself understands, Griffith's dream is his all-devouring ambition.

I would love to see something like that happen because it would make Griffith not simply a pure evil as Slan said, but a determined strong character that he was the whole time before he was broken by Guts' influence. He went through some revealing experience and now he's renewed and (almost) flawless, but, again, unchanged.

You're obviously taking Griffith's dialogue on the Hill of Swords too literally if you think he really hasn't changed at all. There's a reason his name changed when he became Femto. Femto is evil. "Pure evil" seems like an arbitrary distinction, but what's sure is that Femto is really very very evil. And also very powerful. The fact he serves the Idea of Evil doesn't change that. It's the choice he made during the Eclipse. He chose to sacrifice what was most precious to him in exchange for power. Nothing will change that now, and if you hope for it, you'll only be disappointed. The one thing that throws a wrench in this situation is the fact he shares a body with Guts and Casca's son. Also, Griffith was shown through flashbacks told by Casca to have had his share of weakness even before he met Guts, so I'm not sure you're really presenting this the right way. Griffith buckled under pressure and that's that. Again, nothing will change that. It's what was meant to be. I'm not quite sure where you're pulling that Slan reference from, by the way, but I'm pretty sure it's out of context.

Crack is something that happens, I got an impression that the Tree always existed and it is what binds worlds together. Binds meaning holds together. I mean Spirit Trees were existed before World's Tree appeared and they drained it's power from the very beginning of the manga, right? And the term "overlapping" came up previously when Schierke talked about astral beings that aren't supposed to exist in the physical world.

I know what the verb "to bind" means. Do you purport to teach me the English language? :schierke:

Anyway, I have already answered your question. The World Spiral Tree connects the worlds together. The World Spiral Tree existed before, but so far in the story it did not pierce through the Corporeal World like it does now. Now it does, and it is described to us as being like a crack, a great fissure from which the Astral World can pour into the Corporeal World. And yes, the Astral and Corporeal worlds overlap, but not in the way you think, and what you proposed is still wrong. Your idea is that because the tree is "too strong it pulls them too close together so they overlap and create chaos". That is not how it is described to us, neither in this episode nor in the previous ones. I don't know what else I can say: it just doesn't work like that.

I don't really understand how a crack (a break in the matter) could be made weaker or have power at all, let alone having a parasites on it's body. I could understand a concept of three dimensional crack though. But it sounded like the Tree is the reason why all the chaos is happening, but it's not the actual source of the astral "spillage" like Qliphoth was. Sure, this all might not supposed to be understandable by human, but come on.

Ok. Please keep in mind that even if I'm speaking tersely, I'm really trying to help you here. So the deal is that the World Spiral Tree is a big magical tree. Those parasitic trees were "seals" that leeched its power so it couldn't pierce through to the Corporeal world. That's what kept the worlds mostly apart. Now keep in mind, because the World Spiral Tree is a magical thing that connects entire realms of existence together, it necessarily has more than three dimensions. In Berserk, if we count time as the fourth dimension, then there's at least a 5th one as well that accounts for the transition from Corporeal to Astral and Ideal world. So as the World Spiral Tree came through the Corporeal world, because it connects to the Astral world (through the 5th dimension), it acts like a three dimensional fissure. Now of course, there's still a lot of details we don't know about the tree and how it all works, but I think that aspect should be pretty clear.

As for the chaos, well it's just the result of the very brutal and deep fusion of the two worlds. Instead of happening progressively over hundreds of years, it was done in an instant. It's no wonder chaos ensued. That's not really the World Spiral Tree's fault, it's the fault of those behind these events: the God Hand. Regarding the spillage, it's still not 100% clear to me how Ganishka's actions when he went to the Abyss & the Skull Knight's sword strike connect to the tree. However this episode makes it pretty clear that the World Spiral Tree is the conduit through which the fusion occurred.

Um, up to this chapter I always thought that it's unreachable from the physical world, without the Beherit activation, and even Beherit does not take you straight down to the Abyss. Daiba's man-made Beherit is probably the closest thing, but we know that regular people weren't able to visit hell, only Ganishka. And I guess we saw that the Sword of Actuation could cut through the layers of existence straight to the Vortex, but it was more like a rupture rather than a way that one could just enter.

Well it depends in what way you mean. Witches can travel deep into the Astral World using their body of light, or spiritual selves. While Flora said in volume 24 that no one ever returned from the Abyss, it doesn't mean it's impossible for someone to reach it. In the scenario you proposed earlier, that's what would have happened. Because even with the World Spiral Tree and everything, it seems unlikely to me that someone could go down the Abyss still clad in their corporeal bodies. It's a journey of the soul. All that aside, why couldn't the first beherit predate the first member of the God Hand? Beherits are controlled by the Idea of Evil.

I think I saw somewhere on this site a scheme of the astral world layers and it was stated that it's possible to go down only 3 layers down from where you're originally stand. Not sure if I remember it correctly or how true it was.

Yeah it's an old diagram from back in the day. It has its merits but I would not recommend people to rely on it.

They could be the people that took part in a ritual that actually opened the fissure.

I mean even if we go with that, that's still a really big cataclysm to me compared to the scale of the crack you're proposing. There would have to have been more to it than that, or it would need to have been something the size of the World Spiral Tree itself.

It's not an evil spirit of any kind - Beast was present inside dwarf's cave in vol 17.
The episode 190 in which Guts goes into the beast mode and bites Casca called "Fangs of Ego".
When Schierke entered Guts' conscious for the first time she saw the Beast and Guts' actual ego inside of it. And Guts' ego acted just like the Beast before Guts remembered himself.
It's an ego of his rage maybe, but it's not like it doesn't belong to Guts' ego. Unless he'll go completely towards a multiple personality disorder. But even then they're inseparable.

You missed my point. The Beast of Darkness isn't Guts' ego. It is a personification of his dark side. His rage, his fear, his hatred, his guilt, his sorrow, his drive towards death. It is a psychological construct within Guts' mind. What that means is that it's a part of his ego. A side of him. But that's all. His ego is still... him. And guess what: "This world itself is I, the darkness that dwells in every human heart, the Idea of Evil." Guts doesn't need to go to the Abyss for the Idea of Evil to get acquainted with the Beast of Darkness. As told in episode 83, that dark side of him is literally what ties him to the IoE, same as every other human being.

That aside, I appreciate your efforts in detailing what parts of the story form the basis of your reasoning, but you must realize that everything you said here is known to me. I also must point out that it's pretty ridiculous to call "beast mode" the scene of Guts being briefly overcome by his pulsions in episodes 189 & 190. He doesn't transform like a robot. Moreover, Dark Horse's translation for the title of episode 190 is pretty bad if you ask me (it's a hard one to translate however). Lastly, when Schierke dives in Guts' consciousness in volume 27, what she sees, that maelstrom of flames that takes up the form of the Beast of Darkness, is explained as being the shape the Od of the Berserk's armor has fashioned from Guts' hatred. It is not his consciousness itself that is shaped like that.

Shouldn't the proper name be in Japanese? :)

I can actually use the Japanese names of the characters if you prefer. That is no trouble for me at all. In this case it's "月下の少年". But this is an English-speaking forum, and the English translation for that line is actually what's proper. Now the reason I go through the trouble of tirelessly pointing out the exact names of things to people is so that we don't end up one day with people saying "Moongirl", which has happened before.

As I said before, my impression was that the World's Tree always existed and now it appeared because it got a lot more power than it had before.

Yes, it preexisted its recent appearance in the Corporeal World. But it didn't just appear "because it got a lot more power". Destroying the trees that parasited it cleared the way for its manifestation in the Corporeal World, but what made it happen was what Femto did on top of Ganishka.

I wouldn't bet my money on the Boy feeding off the Tree at this point, but since it was established that the Tree could act as a power source (because it has some immense power that could be drained), it opens an opportunity to utilize such mechanics in the future. Maybe Griffith will be using it instead (to oppose IoE, for example).

Sure. But no I don't think Griffith will use that power to oppose the Idea of Evil. Also, whether Griffith or the Boy use that power is the same, right? :slan:

By the way could it be that those human trees we saw in the previous chapter are man-made Spirit Trees that were created from the mages in order to compensate for destruction of the Spirit Trees? We have seen that there is a very few adults and the village is kind of empty (at least, so far), so maybe that's where most of them went?

I don't think that's very likely.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Zade on July 28, 2016, 10:57:00 AM
WOW!  What an episode!  This is some amazing stuff.  Definitely what we've all been waiting for and then some.  This is a big moment in Berserk history guys!

I feel the same as you. Finally the moment we have been waiting for. and next berserk episode next month! oh yeah we are back in action
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Mammon on July 28, 2016, 10:30:59 PM
Amazing episode, can't believe Casca might finally be a few episodes away from being restored.
When I discovered Berserk so many years ago she was already in that state, this is a huge event.

Thanks guys for your posts, all my questions/doubts have been already been answered ITT  :ubik:

I wanted to see this guy smack Puck for the throwback
(http://skullknight.net/images/elfhelm/elfhelm2.jpg)
but I guess he didn't notice him yet.

Or it's not the same character, but the chara design is close...
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Kaladin on July 29, 2016, 12:56:44 AM
Finally got the digital YA, the art looks so nice in it  :ubik:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on July 29, 2016, 05:24:36 AM
I must say this story never disappoints and for all the waiting the reward is always worth while. I think the main points in this episode were covered quite thoroughly so I dont have much to add. However the one thought that is lingering in the back of my mind is what events are unwinding on the main land.
We all know that time is not flowing the same on the island and although I do not expect a huge time difference (several years) I do believe there will be plenty of significant changes. Rakshas  :rakshas: is still out for satisfaction and Im sure Griff  :griffnotevil: has already established his next move towards dominating mankind. Wouldnt be surprised if hes already tied the knot at the very least.
Also I feel we are in line for another full moon although as cool as it would be to see an appearance on the island I am not quite sure how it would fit the storyline considering the king would be keen to who the boy actually is. Perhaps there could be a meeting during their return trip although I am hoping that it wont involve another lengthy sea voyage.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 29, 2016, 10:24:22 AM
We all know that time is not flowing the same on the island and although I do not expect a huge time difference (several years) I do believe there will be plenty of significant changes. Rakshas  :rakshas: is still out for satisfaction and Im sure Griff  :griffnotevil: has already established his next move towards dominating mankind. Wouldnt be surprised if hes already tied the knot at the very least.

I'm quite sure we'll get to see the wedding/coronation. Either through a small cut to Falconia (maybe around the time Casca will be cured, to show a parallel between the two events?) or as a flashback later on.

Also I feel we are in line for another full moon although as cool as it would be to see an appearance on the island I am not quite sure how it would fit the storyline considering the king would be keen to who the boy actually is.

It feels inevitable to me that we'll get a full moon on the island. Hell, for all we know, maybe there are only full moons there as a result of the time flow difference. Each day is 28 days in the real world. :iva: Anyway, it'll be interesting to see whether the boy shows up or not. Would he have no trouble being in Elfhelm? Would the gurus or the Elf King immediately know what he is? The thing is, the way the story has been set up, Schierke will ask the King of the Flower Storm about the boy anyway, because she thinks it's an herald of his or an avatar or something. So we're going there, we just don't know to what extent yet. And of course, the upcoming change in Casca's condition is guaranteed to complicate the matter as well. It will be tremendously exciting to see those events unfold.

Perhaps there could be a meeting during their return trip although I am hoping that it wont involve another lengthy sea voyage.

I think it's a given that we won't get to see another long sea journey. Miura used that one opportunity to tell the things he wanted to, and I expect the return trip to either not be by sea, or to happen mostly off-screen. That being said, if you only count the episodes showing Guts' side of the story, the entire trip took up 30 episodes in total, and only 10 of those were actually spent on the ship itself (17 were spent on the Solitary Island, 3 were a flashback of Guts' childhood). Personally I was a big fan of the Sea God story, of the little flashback as well as of the actual stuff we saw on ship, so I really have no complaints.

Since we're on that topic though, there are two things everyone should wonder about. The first is obvious: what will happen to the Sea Horse? Assuming there is another way to leave the island (like by traveling through the World Spiral Tree's branches like the Moonlight Boy does), would it make sense for Roderick to abandon his ship on Skellig and leave it in his men's hands? The second is obvious as well but people never mention it: what about the merrows? Miura has used the confrontation with the Sea God to introduce us to Isma and to her people, the merrows. That wasn't done for no reason, and the fact they're still around means they have a role to play. So what is that role? Will they help defend the island against a threat coming from the sea? Will they accompany the group on a return trip (by sea) and encounter trouble on the way? Food for thought.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: the immortal bob on July 29, 2016, 01:51:31 PM
I wonder if Griffith is interested in becoming God as well.

Like he's fated to in some way.  I think that while I am of the mind set of hating Griffith for basically not being able to handle the loss of guts, even though it's hard to judge and if they were better communicators and he hadn't have given that speech where he said he had no friends and the band had no dreams, (although he could have just been talking to the princess in his way, he didn't tend to mince words in his speeches) that might not have happened.  He could have just seen it as Guts going his own way.  Anyway, like i said, even though i am of that mindset i see it as coming down to a point where Griffith has to remember his own original motivations that made him human, even though he is now fempto.

Or he could become the thing that he was fated to be.  Which i believe is unrevealed, but is alluded to in the discussions following Guts and Griffith's first fight with zodd. (the one that the new anime also centers on.)

I feel this synergy in timing in Berserk right now putting a new focus on the theme of, there being no difference between the devil and god.

If Griffith isn't destined to become that, i see him having to struggle to remember his own motivations in some way as well.  In the sense that what comes next for a function of the universe after it is completed.  Five members of the god hand seem to complete it.

Lot more to be revealed.

One of the best parts of the chapter, came around the foreboding sense of nearing a goal and feeling a dire sense of uncertainty, couched in happiness, because of the compainship along the way, and the inherent success juxtaposed with the unknown.  I always compare it to losing a full bar of health in street fighter right before finishing the fight because of the idea of finishing or closing.  Like the closer in a baseball game.  In theory that final step carries some powerful mojo.

I felt the impatience Guts felt, mixed with the toying of the story, or the need for Guts to relax with Isidro, Schierke, Puck, Serpico, Farnese, and casca.  It seems fitting that at this moment he would finally speak of his past.


Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on July 29, 2016, 04:27:49 PM
I wonder if Griffith is interested in becoming God as well.

One would think that the being who laid plans for Griffith's birth, rise, fall, and ascension, manipulating history for a thousand years to pave the way for  him, would have seen such a thing coming.

Quote
Griffith has to remember his own original motivations that made him human, even though he is now fempto.

Or he could become the thing that he was fated to be.  Which i believe is unrevealed, but is alluded to in the discussions following Guts and Griffith's first fight with zodd. (the one that the new anime also centers on.)

I think you're a bit confused here. The desire Griffith had as a human to take his own kingdom was born from his desire to rule. It's pretty simple, particularly given the context he provides in the speech you mention (though this happened not after the fight with Zodd, but in Volume 3, during an undisclosed time when they were still young). More than a kingdom, which is a symbol of the power he wants to wield, he wants to become one of the people who set the world in motion.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: TripleJMaster3 on July 29, 2016, 06:54:15 PM

It feels inevitable to me that we'll get a full moon on the island. Hell, for all we know, maybe there are only full moons there as a result of the time flow difference. Each day is 28 days in the real world.


I must have missed this as I do not recall a specification on how time flows on the island. This is a very important detail and I'm surprised I didn't catch it. Perhaps It's do to a poor translation since I'm often in a hurry to find English versions once episodes are release, but am probably doing myself a disservice by not waiting for more reliable translations directly from the Japanese versions.


I think it's a given that we won't get to see another long sea journey. Miura used that one opportunity to tell the things he wanted to, and I expect the return trip to either not be by sea, or to happen mostly off-screen. That being said, if you only count the episodes showing Guts' side of the story, the entire trip took up 30 episodes in total, and only 10 of those were actually spent on the ship itself (17 were spent on the Solitary Island, 3 were a flashback of Guts' childhood). Personally I was a big fan of the Sea God story, of the little flashback as well as of the actual stuff we saw on ship, so I really have no complaints.


Makes sense and I am certainly not complaining about the sea voyage as there were plenty of interesting events that occurred. I guess I'm just over eager to see it hit the fan, but again I have yet to be disappointed so patience is certainly a virtue especially when reading this story. So regardless of if we get some magical teleportation or another sea voyage I'm sure the end result will be rewarding as always.


Since we're on that topic though, there are two things everyone should wonder about. The first is obvious: what will happen to the Sea Horse? Assuming there is another way to leave the island (like by traveling through the World Spiral Tree's branches like the Moonlight Boy does), would it make sense for Roderick to abandon his ship on Skellig and leave it in his men's hands? The second is obvious as well but people never mention it: what about the merrows? Miura has used the confrontation with the Sea God to introduce us to Isma and to her people, the merrows. That wasn't done for no reason, and the fact they're still around means they have a role to play. So what is that role? Will they help defend the island against a threat coming from the sea? Will they accompany the group on a return trip (by sea) and encounter trouble on the way? Food for thought.


Interesting point about the merrows. Although the sea horse has not left my thoughts I must admit I have not been considering the merrows. It would be wasteful for them to not serve some higher purpose since they were kind enough to stand guard and of course wasteful details never tie into this story, at least I have not come across one yet. They certainly proved most helpful against the sea god and in saving Guts. Perhaps our team will get split, some traveling by boat and the rest by some magical means?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 29, 2016, 10:22:07 PM
I wonder if Griffith is interested in becoming God as well. Like he's fated to in some way.

As Walter mentioned, since "God" (the Idea of Evil) controls "fate" (the principle of causality), that seems pretty unlikely.

i see it as coming down to a point where Griffith has to remember his own original motivations that made him human, even though he is now fempto.

You just said it yourself: he's not human anymore. The motivations he had as a human that were shed when he became Femto cannot just be regained like that. What matters (his all-devouring ambition) is what remains, and it has been sublimated.

Or he could become the thing that he was fated to be.  Which i believe is unrevealed, but is alluded to in the discussions following Guts and Griffith's first fight with zodd. (the one that the new anime also centers on.)

Uhh, you must have misunderstood that scene. Zodd basically warns Guts about the Eclipse. That's it.

I must have missed this as I do not recall a specification on how time flows on the island. This is a very important detail and I'm surprised I didn't catch it.

Sorry, I think you mistook what I said: this was just me talking, it's not at all confirmed in the story. We currently do not know how time flows on the island.

Perhaps our team will get split, some traveling by boat and the rest by some magical means?

Indeed, the idea has crossed my mind before... Seeing some (all?) of the group cope without Guts would be a most unexpected yet interesting development.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: DragoonBG on July 30, 2016, 12:27:46 AM
Since we're on that topic though, there are two things everyone should wonder about. The first is obvious: what will happen to the Sea Horse? Assuming there is another way to leave the island (like by traveling through the World Spiral Tree's branches like the Moonlight Boy does), would it make sense for Roderick to abandon his ship on Skellig and leave it in his men's hands? The second is obvious as well but people never mention it: what about the merrows? Miura has used the confrontation with the Sea God to introduce us to Isma and to her people, the merrows. That wasn't done for no reason, and the fact they're still around means they have a role to play. So what is that role? Will they help defend the island against a threat coming from the sea? Will they accompany the group on a return trip (by sea) and encounter trouble on the way? Food for thought.

I think it will be/might be a cool/neat idea if we have the chance to experience a travel through the World Spiral Tree's branches with the Sea Horse floating/flying through it imbued by magic (ofc.). Maybe a little bit too far off for a fantasy and it goes into the sci-fi direction, but in terms of visual presentation it can potentially create amazing vistas (a lonely ship gracefully drifting into the night sky, while full moon illuminates the crew on the deck and thousand little stars glitter distorted by the luminescent matter of the tree's essence). Also, I can imagine the insides of the tree's branches surroundings have their own (hm, how should I put it), laws, like an entirely different world with it's flora and fauna (ok, I guess this part is a bit too much, at least some of it :D). That would be a nice/natural development and good new location to be revealed/presented to us as well, before we get to/reach Falconia.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Delta Phi on July 30, 2016, 02:35:17 AM
I think it will be/might be a cool/neat idea if we have the chance to experience a travel through the World Spiral Tree's branches with the Sea Horse floating/flying through it imbued by magic (ofc.). Maybe a little bit too far off for a fantasy and it goes into the sci-fi direction, but in terms of visual presentation it can potentially create amazing vistas (a lonely ship gracefully drifting into the night sky, while full moon illuminates the crew on the deck and thousand little stars glitter distorted by the luminescent matter of the tree's essence).

Reminds me of Peter Pan, The Silmarillion, and Final Fantasy IV, actually.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 30, 2016, 08:44:17 AM
I think it will be/might be a cool/neat idea if we have the chance to experience a travel through the World Spiral Tree's branches with the Sea Horse floating/flying through it imbued by magic (ofc.).

Good idea! I agree, that'd be pretty cool to see.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Cyrax on July 30, 2016, 09:10:57 AM
Can't seem to find an answer on this but will there be an episode next month?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 30, 2016, 09:16:12 AM
Can't seem to find an answer on this but will there be an episode next month?

Yes. In Young Animal #17 that will be released on August 26. It was stated early on in the thread, so you must not have searched for that answer very thoroughly.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Mangetsu on July 30, 2016, 06:41:08 PM
I simply loved this episode. Seeing how everything is being connected reminded me of that one interview in which Miura talked about how everything falls into place subconsciously. It feels all natural and smooth and that's what i love about this.



Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: ABH on July 31, 2016, 01:11:13 AM
I don't know if we can say that this is an "entirely new world", in the sense that this is a fusion between two preexisting "parts" of the world, and that it is a return to a state the world was in during ancient times. Similarly, I don't think Griffith embodies the theme of being strong enough to make your own way without being dependent on others. He failed to achieve his goals, then sacrificed what was most dear to him in exchange for evil power that was bestowed to him by a higher entity that he now serves, directly or indirectly.

I would reference back to the Egg Apostle whose own wish was to create a new world with his sacrifice being the old world. In volume 34 after the light spreads across the globe, there is a reference to the realization of mankind's desires coming to fruit and a reference to Fantasia. The intro to volume 35 states the "Sword of Actuation turned Ganishka into the source from which sprung a new world." The citizens of Midland when first seeing Falconia describe it as the capital of a new world. It would seem to me to be rather blatant what the reference is.

Interestingly enough, the page that first uses the term Fantasia references the creatures coming into the human world now as being the fantasies of mankind for millennia, plural. This could just be that Miura hadn't fleshed everything out fully. Something that just occurred to me is that perhaps the Idea of Evil's birth was somewhat closer to that point in time, and it was only just starting to establish causality. But that's getting closer to older fan theories that it all started there which I'm not too sure on. History here could be cyclical going back far longer or that could be the sort of beginning to this story.

And in terms of the embodiment of making your own way, yes I meant Guts.

The Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. I don't think it's meant to be related to the Idea of Evil like that, although I also believe the Holy See's establishment was part of the IoE's scheme.

How or what the Idea of Evil is remains obscure, obviously. At least in the lost chapter, it refers to itself as god. Griffith in the last panel of the preceding chapter also references, though there may just not be a way to cut it.

I don't think that comparison is apt. The way Schierke calls for the help of elemental spirits is radically different to how the God Hand, apostles and the Idea of Evil work. These latter entities are powered by human souls, and specifically by the evil of mankind. When they undergo their transcendence, the very soul of an apostle is infused with evil and irremediably changed. That is what gives them their power. It's really a completely different process

The comparison cannot be taken too far or too literally. It may be wrong entirely. I am aware of the four elementals, we also have Schierke making 'pacts' with the spirits she draws power from. I only meant that magic users are serving some larger purpose, even if not knowingly (at least all of them) to keep the worlds in balance. They aren't servants of some Idea of Good.

To me the good in this world seems somewhat chaotic. If causality is controlled by the Idea of Evil, then the opposite of that would be, I guess, people who struggle against it. Struggle against causality and try to change it. Those who resist destiny. So perhaps there is no overarching Idea of Good out there somewhere yet to be revealed, and we only have the four spirits representing the basic elementals (also sort of a throw back to Greek philosophy which gave way to Christianity). Magic users are tapping into that power of the other world to influence the world they live in which is somewhat similar to the way Apostles and God Hand are beneficiaries of causality.

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To quote it directly: "Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, reasons for sadness, reasons for life, reasons for death. Reason why their lives were filled with suffering... Reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge."

The way I read this is, Griffith asks if its God. The explanation provided is a reason for why humans came up with the concept of God in the first place. God gives the answer to those questions. The Idea of Evil views its purpose that way. Going back to the Egg Apostle, it saw itself as sacrificing the old world for a new perfect one. How literal anyone wants to be with the new world aspect is up to them, but the implication to me is that

The Idea of Evil says humans desired reasons, and that "I produce those...as it is what I have been brought into existence for." Whether the Idea of Evil has any particular motive isn't clear at all. It is cryptic only saying that Griffith's will is the same as its as he is part of the collective consciousness of humanity. Yet its creation of Apostles and the God Hand suggests it does to me. I mean, creating destiny/causality would not *seem* to require those things. He also tells Griffith he manipulated the past to ensure he would be in that place for the Eclipse which indicates intent.

So, there's manipulation to some end, and if the Idea of Evil's purpose is related to providing answers to those very questions humans have. Back to the Egg Apostle, it views itself as sacrificing the old world to create a new perfect one. Griffith's will is in line with that of the Idea of Evil which is in turn really just the collective consciousness of humanity. If humanity is yearning for a collective savior, a Griffith-type character would be the answer. And he would have to create something superficially resembling a utopia to provide the answers. A place where scarcity doesn't exist, where there is peace and everything is controlled by Griffith.

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As for Guts, I'm not sure I agree with calling him "brutish", but more importantly you should keep in mind that "struggler" is just a nickname the Skull Knight gave him. It's not some celestial role he fulfills. And no one was really "chosen by fate" either, unless it refers to the Idea of Evil's manipulation of the principle of causality.

Perhaps the better way to phrase all of this is that there is an odd contrast between good and evil in Berserk. It flips standard or conventional notions of good and evil on their heads in many ways.

I think good in the Berserk world is chaotic. He is a man who, when he goes off to find his own path, can only come back to fighting and seeking out stronger challenges. He has incredible rage. He has killed mass amounts of people. In terms of brutishness, he is not a dumb brute. But he most definitely is viewed as brutish by many of the people he encounters. And that is how he will appear to Griffith. Griffith is a false savior, and I don't in anyway subscribe to the 'theory' that he is the real hero of the story or anything. But he presented as all-powerful, beautiful even to the men in the story, incredibly intelligent and outside his affinity for Guts/sleeping with Charlotte, nearly infallible. Guts by contrast is a cursed individual born from a corpse, generally treated like garbage, and comes off as a mad dog to people when they first meet him after everything he's been through.

Then there are the forces that seem 'good' or at least not evil in the Astral world. Back to those four elementals. They are simply representations of elements that don't seem to have a will. If Guts represents someone struggling against causality, a causality that has been manipulated for Griffith - an anti-Christ type figure or false savior - the opposite of that to me is free will. Berserk is not Western and hardly only has superficial elements of Western traditions, but I go back to the comparison between the Holy See/Christianity and magic/paganism of the classical world there. The elementals are compared to the sole Idea of Evil chaotic, seemingly without any will, merely forming occasional pacts with people in-tune with the magical world. Guts is an incredible exception in the story itself because of his strength. Most people could not live his way where regardless of what happens, he just keeps fighting. Most of them are the ones yearning out to the Idea of Evil.

This is just how I perceive the contrast right now. Griffith is established a rather artificial little safe haven for people that provides them seemingly everything they'd need. Their wants are met, they are safe, and nothing is left to chance. There's a hidden side to that in that Griffith created that scenario, but the world before was a pretty ugly place (though, again, manipulated by the Idea of Evil).

So Berserk in many ways flips common tropes of good and evil. It's not unique in doing so, though it does it in a special way.

Furthermore, they've been presented as being mostly equals so far in the story. Femto is their vanguard and has the main role in the corporeal world (which makes sense), but amongst them the de facto leader is Void.

Griffith's creation is to me quite clearly represented as special - the culmination of a process that started perhaps 1,000 years ago (which may have started with Void). I think his place is obviously quite special compared to the others. If we go back to the Christianity tie-in, which can be admittedly shaky, he's a bit like the anti-Christ, the fifth horseman compared to the other four.

But we can only wait and see until we learn more about the God Hand.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Cyrax on July 31, 2016, 09:08:48 AM
Yes. In Young Animal #17 that will be released on August 26. It was stated early on in the thread, so you must not have searched for that answer very thoroughly.

Yeah.... I guess I didn't.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 31, 2016, 09:45:49 AM
I would reference back to the Egg Apostle whose own wish was to create a new world with his sacrifice being the old world. In volume 34 after the light spreads across the globe, there is a reference to the realization of mankind's desires coming to fruit and a reference to Fantasia. The intro to volume 35 states the "Sword of Actuation turned Ganishka into the source from which sprung a new world." The citizens of Midland when first seeing Falconia describe it as the capital of a new world. It would seem to me to be rather blatant what the reference is.

I know of everything you mention. My comment still stands in the wider context provided (among other things) by the very episode whose thread this is. It isn't really an "entirely new world", even though it seems to be so for the average person living in Falconia right now. Even Falconia isn't an entirely new city, since it is based on Gaiseric's old capital. Like you mention later in your post, there are hints a cyclical aspect to the present events. So as far as the themes of Berserk go, I disagree with your interpretation in that specific context.

Interestingly enough, the page that first uses the term Fantasia references the creatures coming into the human world now as being the fantasies of mankind for millennia, plural. This could just be that Miura hadn't fleshed everything out fully.

No, it just means that:

1) In Japanese the plural and singular form are both possible.
2) We don't know when the Corporeal and Astral worlds started coming apart.

How or what the Idea of Evil is remains obscure, obviously. At least in the lost chapter, it refers to itself as god. Griffith in the last panel of the preceding chapter also references, though there may just not be a way to cut it.

The individual issues of Berserk are called episodes, not chapters. And like I told you, the Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. That the Idea of Evil is referred to as God or a god does not mean the Holy See worships it. As far as we currently know, it doesn't. But it still serves Its designs by revering one of its agents (Griffith).

The comparison cannot be taken too far or too literally. It may be wrong entirely. I am aware of the four elementals, we also have Schierke making 'pacts' with the spirits she draws power from. I only meant that magic users are serving some larger purpose, even if not knowingly (at least all of them) to keep the worlds in balance. They aren't servants of some Idea of Good.

Yeah I'm sorry but no matter how far you take it or not, it's just incorrect. The process is completely different. But sure, magic users serve an important purpose, no doubt about that.

To me the good in this world seems somewhat chaotic. If causality is controlled by the Idea of Evil, then the opposite of that would be, I guess, people who struggle against it. Struggle against causality and try to change it. Those who resist destiny. So perhaps there is no overarching Idea of Good out there somewhere yet to be revealed, and we only have the four spirits representing the basic elementals (also sort of a throw back to Greek philosophy which gave way to Christianity). Magic users are tapping into that power of the other world to influence the world they live in which is somewhat similar to the way Apostles and God Hand are beneficiaries of causality.

I don't know about that whole chaotic thing. For starters, I don't think there needs to be something directly opposing the Idea of Evil. For example, I don't think there's an Idea of Good, but there must be a place in the great ocean of souls were people with good karma go. It's just that that place hasn't developed an ego. And the four elemental kings are fundamentally different beings too. They rule over the four elements, but they aren't tied to mankind like the Idea of Evil is. So this is an asymmetrical situation where there is no direct counterpart to the Idea of Evil... which is why the Idea of Evil has been doing exactly what it wants without any real opposition (even the Skull Knight's intervention worked in its favor in volume 34) so far. Magic users can be seen as a threat to its plans because of their deep understanding of how the world works, but it's still an enormous stretch to compare them to apostles or the God Hand.

Anyway, I think it's specious to say that because the Idea of Evil manipulates the principle of causality to achieve its results, it must mean that chaos is good. People still suffered before the Idea of Evil was born, and in fact that's precisely why it was born. And is the current chaos outside of Falconia good, when humans can't survive there? In episode 345, Ged didn't seem to relish the idea of the "ancient chaos" coming back at all. He described it as a catastrophic event. I guess my point is that the opposition between good and evil isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be. People living harmoniously with nature and with each other, that's good. But is it human nature?

The Idea of Evil says humans desired reasons, and that "I produce those...as it is what I have been brought into existence for." Whether the Idea of Evil has any particular motive isn't clear at all.

I believe you just mentioned its motive: "I produce those [reasons]... as it is what I have been brought into existence for."

If humanity is yearning for a collective savior, a Griffith-type character would be the answer. And he would have to create something superficially resembling a utopia to provide the answers. A place where scarcity doesn't exist, where there is peace and everything is controlled by Griffith.

You've typed a lot of text but it didn't actually address what I told you. Which is that, if we stick to episode 83, the Idea of Evil produces reasons for people's misery (pain, suffering, death, etc.) and the destiny that transcends their knowledge. So "removing despair" wouldn't be in its interest, since it feeds off of it. And "reasons" doesn't mean "answers" either.

Perhaps the better way to phrase all of this is that there is an odd contrast between good and evil in Berserk. It flips standard or conventional notions of good and evil on their heads in many ways.

I really, really love Berserk, but I don't think it's revolutionizing the concept of good and evil. Guts was an anti-hero before anti-heroes were cool. And yet he's still exceptionally strong, whether it's physically or mentally, and is fundamentally a good guy. As for Griffith, he wears white, looks angelic, eats cakes with princesses and saves kingdoms from monsters. But we know it's just a facade behind which lurks Femto, the Wings of Darkness. We know he has apostles at his command and that his ulterior motives are necessarily evil. I think this is all really cool, and it's not the norm, but it isn't beyond comprehension either. Tales of heroic outlaws who fight corrupt despots have existed in fiction since the dawn of time. While Miura has subverted the tale of the white knight in shining armor, as the readers we know what's really going on.

He is a man who, when he goes off to find his own path, can only come back to fighting and seeking out stronger challenges. He has incredible rage. He has killed mass amounts of people. In terms of brutishness, he is not a dumb brute. But he most definitely is viewed as brutish by many of the people he encounters. And that is how he will appear to Griffith. Griffith is a false savior, and I don't in anyway subscribe to the 'theory' that he is the real hero of the story or anything. But he presented as all-powerful, beautiful even to the men in the story, incredibly intelligent and outside his affinity for Guts/sleeping with Charlotte, nearly infallible. Guts by contrast is a cursed individual born from a corpse, generally treated like garbage, and comes off as a mad dog to people when they first meet him after everything he's been through.

I think you oversimplify people's view of Guts here. He's big and strong, but the main definition of "brutish" in the dictionary is "brutal or cruel", and I don't think that has fit people's view of Guts for a long time. But I get what you mean: he appears unrefined compared to Griffith. As for being cursed, he is only so because he was branded during the Eclipse. Again, I get what you mean: Guts wears black and struggles in the mud while Griffith shines brightly in his white armor and soars in the sky. That is one of the themes at the core of Berserk. But the story gives enough more than enough details for us to see things aren't that simple. The same goes for Griffith actually: as a man, he was certainly fallible, and it goes much farther than just him being upset in volume 8 and sleeping with Charlotte.

Then there are the forces that seem 'good' or at least not evil in the Astral world. Back to those four elementals. They are simply representations of elements that don't seem to have a will.

The four kings are inherently elemental, and seem to be immutable parts of the world, but I don't think we can say they don't have a will. That is not reflected in what Schierke says about them. Anyway, "evil" in Berserk typically refers to "evil power" created from a concentration of human souls with bad karma. It's not hard to imagine that the very concept of fueling oneself with human souls might be fundamentally incompatible with good karma, therefore explaining why we haven't heard of it. Other than that, the idea that the "forces of nature" might stand in opposition to the Idea of Evil's camp is something I've long speculated about myself. However, in the end, that opposition may end up being closer to "mankind vs nature" than "evil vs good", unless Guts can do something about it.

The elementals are compared to the sole Idea of Evil chaotic, seemingly without any will, merely forming occasional pacts with people in-tune with the magical world.

That isn't true, actually. Going past the four kings themselves, the various spiritual beings Schierke has called for help all had a will of sorts, as shown in Schierke's dialogue. They each have their particularities, which is why she has to form a pact with them instead of just tapping into that power directly. And they aren't chaotic either, on the contrary they rule over a specific domain.

Guts is an incredible exception in the story itself because of his strength. Most people could not live his way where regardless of what happens, he just keeps fighting. Most of them are the ones yearning out to the Idea of Evil.

No yearning is necessary. People don't consciously want an overseer to control their lives. As for Guts, he has played a key part in the Idea of Evil's schemes. He was at the heart of Griffith's rise to glory and fall to despair, which is what led him to join the God Hand. He has been branded and bears his fair share of darkness (which ties him to the Idea of Evil). If he died today, he would join the Vortex of Souls. Guts is certainly very strong, but he's not outside of the Idea of Evil's reach. The gurus might be, though.

This is just how I perceive the contrast right now. Griffith is established a rather artificial little safe haven for people that provides them seemingly everything they'd need. Their wants are met, they are safe, and nothing is left to chance. There's a hidden side to that in that Griffith created that scenario, but the world before was a pretty ugly place (though, again, manipulated by the Idea of Evil).

Let's not forget that the situation with Falconia might still evolve though. We don't know what the end-goal is yet.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on July 31, 2016, 05:31:34 PM
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but there must be a place in the great ocean of souls were people with good karma go

How about becoming a spirit in some layer of astral world? I mean, we know its possible for wizards and witches to likely exist there in afterlife, but a lot of people with " good " karma tend to be mages in fact. In general people who associate with magic and natural order of the world seem to be largely free of the taint of society and evil in general. Not all though, those Kushan sorcerers didn't smell as " good " to me.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on July 31, 2016, 07:44:37 PM
How about becoming a spirit in some layer of astral world? I mean, we know its possible for wizards and witches to likely exist there in afterlife, but a lot of people with " good " karma tend to be mages in fact. In general people who associate with magic and natural order of the world seem to be largely free of the taint of society and evil in general. Not all though, those Kushan sorcerers didn't smell as " good " to me.

Haha, I'm not sure I'd even really count those nameless Kushan guys as magic users given how low they were on the ladder. Farnese's a prodigy compared to them. Anyway, a master witch like Flora has managed to subsist after death, but we don't really know how widespread that practice is. Nor what form that takes exactly. Has Flora just become a spirit like those Schierke calls upon? I don't really think so. Either way, I do believe most people (good or bad) end up in the ocean of souls. You make a good point though about the fact most of the people we've seen in Berserk seem to have bad karma.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: scopedog on August 01, 2016, 03:42:43 AM
You make a good point though about the fact most of the people we've seen in Berserk seem to have bad karma.

I'd be curious to know how exactly karma operates in the world of Berserk because the specific mechanics of it can vary between Indian traditions. Though I seriously doubt Miura will give much if any additional time to expound on this as there are more important things to focus on.

If you look at it from a Hindu perspective karma is a bit easier to work with. Giving gifts is a central aspect of acrueing karmic merit, and this is why traditionally the one receiving a gift in ancient India wouldn't be saying much thanks or making a big deal out of it because the one giving the gift is the one really benefiting.

However from a Buddhist perspective the system becomes much trickier to work with and frankly most people in this modern day world would have rather low or even negative karma even without doing particularly bad deeds. This is because in the Buddhist system a person's mind states and especially their intent for any given action are factored in heavily to the equation. Also speaking truthfully is very important as well. So if you aren't watching what you say and actively cultivating a clean/high state of mind (ie. with the brahma viharas), there's a good chance your karma is at least such that you won't be looking forward to rebirth in a heavenly realm.   

One of the more interesting beliefs I've heard from a Buddhist is that when a being dies its actually the being itself who's turning around and doing the weighing and judging of their karma, deed by deed, and in this moment one is not unlike a God, and we actually end up coming down rather hard on ourselves as we often imagine a God would do. And it is only by becoming a 'stream-enterer' (the abandonment of the first 3 fetters including 'permanent self view' ie. breaking through the illusion of an ego) or attaining the further 3 stages toward nirvana that one can actually see what's going on in this process clearly after death and simply choose to be born in a fortunate location. So it doesn't have to be a completely static and unthinking law of the universe, there are different ways to approach this issue.                 
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on August 01, 2016, 06:18:39 AM
I'd be curious to know how exactly karma operates in the world of Berserk because the specific mechanics of it can vary between Indian traditions. Though I seriously doubt Miura will give much if any additional time to expound on this as there are more important things to focus on.

The basis for it is from Buddhism, but obviously it's its own thing in Berserk. The only time it's been mentioned in the story so far was by Flora and she didn't go into details, so we don't know much about it.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: ApostleBob on August 01, 2016, 08:18:24 PM
Good idea! I agree, that'd be pretty cool to see.

This could be especially cool with all the water imagery used in the series. The ship could literally sail through layers. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: the immortal bob on August 02, 2016, 07:27:35 AM
One would think that the being who laid plans for Griffith's birth, rise, fall, and ascension, manipulating history for a thousand years to pave the way for  him, would have seen such a thing coming.

I think you're a bit confused here. The desire Griffith had as a human to take his own kingdom was born from his desire to rule. It's pretty simple, particularly given the context he provides in the speech you mention (though this happened not after the fight with Zodd, but in Volume 3, during an undisclosed time when they were still young). More than a kingdom, which is a symbol of the power he wants to wield, he wants to become one of the people who set the world in motion.

I just base it on the idea that, this fate was planned for Griffith but he had his own dream despite being fated to hold the egg of the king.

I don't feel that this vision now coincides with his original dream, on a subjective level.

Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Johnstantine on August 02, 2016, 03:40:28 PM
I don't feel that this vision now coincides with his original dream, on a subjective level.

That's exactly how I feel about it. It's just cool to see it clearly stated by Guts finally.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on August 02, 2016, 09:35:48 PM
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Haha, I'm not sure I'd even really count those nameless Kushan guys as magic users given how low they were on the ladder. Farnese's a prodigy compared to them.

Haha, cmon, Pishaca were bloody cool. Especially Makara. Albeit, that name cracks me every time. In Croatian, Pishaca ( Pišača ) is a slang for urin/pee.... You'll never look at them in same light <.<

Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on August 02, 2016, 09:52:53 PM
Haha, cmon, Pishaca were bloody cool. Especially Makara.

Oh they were great for sure, but the nameless guys who controlled them can't be compared to the magicians of Skellig. :schnoz:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: ABH on August 02, 2016, 10:47:58 PM
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My comment still stands in the wider context provided (among other things) by the very episode whose thread this is. It isn't really an "entirely new world"

I find it odd that someone wants to get so literal about this when the creator of the series has banged the point home multiple times, and it's even placed outside the story in descriptions of the volumes. Curious - do you think Griffith and Femto are one in the same, or is Femto different from Griffith in your view?

The dirt in the new world is the same as the old one, but for the people involved in the story, in the big picture, and the way it is being presented is as a new world. The old one with its order and the old reality as a whole are being torn apart and replaced. I interpret Berserk in terms of symbols and ideas based on what is presented in the manga. If there's evidence contradicting my views, I accept it and try to see what Miura is saying. But I don't think meaning is derived from treating what is said as encyclopedic.

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. And like I told you, the Holy See worships the Falcon of Light. That the Idea of Evil is referred to as God or a god does not mean the Holy See worships it. As far as we currently know, it doesn't. But it still serves Its designs by revering one of its agents (Griffith).

What the Holy See worships remains unclear. Which is why the initial point was posted as speculative and not fact. It's not a matter of knowing that it doesn't. It's just that the characteristics of the Holy See's deity are completely unrevealed. Yet its odd to think that the Idea of Evil brought about the Holy See in some way, presumably views itself as God given the content revealed so far, and yet it has no place in its religion.

There is an issue I have here where ideas get shot down definitively, and its not really based on the source material. So a statement such as as far as we currently know, this isn't true when we don't know at all doesn't hold water. We know nothing, and there's nothing indicating it isn't. There's at least some things I have pointed to that indicate there is some connection.

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Yeah I'm sorry but no matter how far you take it or not, it's just incorrect. The process is completely different. But sure, magic users serve an important purpose, no doubt about that.

Except we just learned last chapter they are serving a greater purpose in maintaining order between the two worlds. And presumably intentionally. And they form pacts with the other world. If you want to view it as completely different, by all means. But I see parallels there.

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Anyway, I think it's specious to say that because the Idea of Evil manipulates the principle of causality to achieve its results, it must mean that chaos is good. People still suffered before the Idea of Evil was born, and in fact that's precisely why it was born. And is the current chaos outside of Falconia good, when humans can't survive there?

Without getting too long here:
1. As far as what's been revealed so far, it seems like the entire Astral world is created by man in a similar way as the Idea of Evil.
2. The world before wasn't 'good.' And I would reference that good in Berserk isn't really stereotypical good. Guts is not a typical hero. He's a guy who has murdered children and slaughtered hundreds of people. Outside elves, nothing is really described as 'good.' Nor has there been any character who is purely good. That the Idea of Evil is evil and considers itself God may speak to what Miura is trying to say about humanity.
3. The outside, the chaos isn't purely good or evil. But there is freedom there.

Do you reject that Miura draws contrasts between Guts and Griffith? And if Griffith is the false savior, then perhaps what he's saving people from isn't all bad in Miura's view. But it isn't meant to be some cliche of good, either.

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I guess my point is that the opposition between good and evil isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be.

I didn't think I was painting a black and white picture at all. But you did say in your previous post that "[e]vil is pretty clear-cut in Berserk." So if Griffith is evil, an anti-savior, then it kind of makes sense that the world he is building, or however you want to describe his (new?) dream is evil. Whatever he is ushering in is called the Age of Darkness so that's not too ambiguous to me. So I would think the characteristics of what Griffith/Femto is building would be a good indicator of what Miura is trying to say with the story about evil.

My own beliefs may influence my interpretations here, but I see a pretty sterile existence where people are accepting the safety and luxury of Falconia blindly in exchange for presumably their freedom. If I am right on Miura's overall statement, I think we will see Miura develop that theme. If I'm not, we'll see clarity on that.

I don't want to make this post ridiculously long. It's already pretty lengthy. So I'll cut it there and bow out.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on August 03, 2016, 10:10:18 AM
I find it odd that someone wants to get so literal about this when the creator of the series has banged the point home multiple times, and it's even placed outside the story in descriptions of the volumes. [...] The dirt in the new world is the same as the old one, but for the people involved in the story, in the big picture, and the way it is being presented is as a new world. The old one with its order and the old reality as a whole are being torn apart and replaced.

I think you're trying to confuse the issue here. Fantasia being described as a "new world" by characters in the story and you saying that Griffith's goal was to create an entirely new world like an omnipotent god would are two different things. The word "entirely" matters here, and I disagree with what you said in the context you said it. I also think I've given you good reasons why, in the big picture, this world isn't entirely new. Like the fact, as Ged mentions in this episode, the world used to be like that long ago. That Fantasia is a "new" world in the immediate context of the story isn't up for debate, but that's not my point.

Curious - do you think Griffith and Femto are one in the same, or is Femto different from Griffith in your view?

Hahaha, you're cute. Yes, Femto and Griffith are one and the same, with the critical exception of Guts and Casca's son. My thoughts on the matter (which are merely me stating a fact) have been all over this forum for over a decade, and are reiterated so often I might have said it last week for all I know. Of course I assume you're speaking about the new Griffith here, the one Femto was incarnated into. The original, human Griffith underwent a pretty drastic transformation when he became Femto. Hence the change of names, and the fact Femto was "born" from Griffith.

I interpret Berserk in terms of symbols and ideas based on what is presented in the manga. If there's evidence contradicting my views, I accept it and try to see what Miura is saying. But I don't think meaning is derived from treating what is said as encyclopedic.

So you're divining omens based on chicken bones is what you're saying? As opposed to stupidly reading from the book like some people. Yet in our exchange just above, you were the one quoting lines to justify what you said, while I was telling you the context mattered. So who's who here in the end? :slan:

What the Holy See worships remains unclear.

Are you saying the Holy See doesn't worship the Falcon of Light? Him being their prophecized savior is all over the story, and their holy symbol itself is shaped like a falcon... The Pontiff publicly groveled before him on their first meeting, etc.

Yet its odd to think that the Idea of Evil brought about the Holy See in some way, presumably views itself as God given the content revealed so far, and yet it has no place in its religion.

It's not that odd if you think a little. What does the Idea of Evil have to gain by being worshipped directly? From the content revealed so far in the story, nothing. It exists regardless, and its power isn't affected by people's prayers. On the other hand, it greatly benefits from the effects the Holy See has had on people's conception of the world (obfuscating the real powers at play), and obviously that religion has played an important role in furthering its plans since it blindly follows Griffith, one of its agents. Going further than that, the various heretics we've seen in Berserk directly oppose the Holy See, but know that also works in the God Hand's favor (and therefore the Idea of Evil's). I could talk about the Kushans as well but it doesn't matter, the point is that while the Holy See is definitely tied to the God Hand and therefore the Idea of Evil (even through imagery, as their symbol is reminiscent of the Brand and the IoE's double helix), so far nothing in the story implies the IoE is being directly worshipped by it.

There is an issue I have here where ideas get shot down definitively, and its not really based on the source material. So a statement such as as far as we currently know, this isn't true when we don't know at all doesn't hold water. We know nothing, and there's nothing indicating it isn't. There's at least some things I have pointed to that indicate there is some connection.

Basing your entire speculation or theory on unknown elements isn't the surest way for it to hold water. For example, we don't know that the Skull Knight isn't a robot, but he still isn't. That aside, I don't think you've made a convincing case, otherwise I would agree with you. But it's also fine if we disagree, exchanging ideas is what this place is all about. It's normal that not everyone thinks the same.

Except we just learned last chapter they are serving a greater purpose in maintaining order between the two worlds. And presumably intentionally. And they form pacts with the other world. If you want to view it as completely different, by all means. But I see parallels there.

I have told you before: the individual issues of Berserk are called episodes (話), not chapters ((章). Chapters refer to collections of episodes, like the current Chapter of the Elf Island. I would expect someone theorizing on the big picture in Berserk to get such details right. Moving on...

Try as you might, your sentence: "If there are beings in the Astral world which are opposite to the Idea of Evil in some sense, magic users are tapping into it a bit like the Apostles with the Idea of Evil." is far-fetched and will remain so. Like I have stated before, no direct opposition to the Idea of Evil has been made evident at this point in the story (it's a more asymmetrical relation), and beyond that, the way magic users enlist the help of spiritual entities, or just use their knowledge of the world to achieve a result, works really completely differently from how apostles are created. And if I wanted to nitpick, I'd point out that apostles don't "tap into" the Idea of Evil. They are "chosen" and their lives manipulated in such a way that they sacrifice what they hold most dear, receiving in exchange evil power (based on human karma) that permanently twists their soul. The fact magic users might have sealed the World Spiral Tree away in the past or played a role in keeping it at bay does not change anything in that regard.

You know, one can find parallels in everything, but they're not always worth mentioning. Guts has a sword, so does Roderick. That's a parallel right there. Is it relevant? Does it matter at all? No.

1. As far as what's been revealed so far, it seems like the entire Astral world is created by man in a similar way as the Idea of Evil.

I have to disagree with that, actually. There are a few references in the story to the fact the Astral world is filled with the legends, myths and dreams that haunt people's minds. However, several elements show that it wasn't "created by man". The first and most obvious is the fact the Berserk world is divided into three worlds or realms: Corporeal, Astral, Ideal. When people die their souls go through these in order, and they've been established as basically being foundational elements of that universe. The second elements reinforces that notion: the four kings rule over the basic elements of fire, water, earth and air. These entities, alongside more minor spiritual beings like the Lady of the Depths, are shown to be pretty independent creatures whose existence isn't tied to people remembering them. Then there's the fact the Astral and Corporeal worlds were merged in times long past. While we don't know whether the world's existence began like that or whether it's cyclical and so on, the current implication is that separation may have been made-man.

Then there's two ways to view the references to astral creatures existing in people's minds. Either the Astral world subsisted in people's unconscious despite being cut off from the Corporeal world, or people's imagination and dreams, when strong enough, led to the birth of astral creatures (but the Astral world itself already existed, and so did some types of entities, maybe the most ethereal ones). A mix of both is also possible and the most likely to me.

2. The world before wasn't 'good.' And I would reference that good in Berserk isn't really stereotypical good.

Sure. Although I think it's important to keep in mind what I said about "evil" referring to "evil power" or "evil magic". People often get bogged down in philosophical debates about good and evil when the context of evil in Berserk is pretty specific most of the time. Which is why "good" isn't as clearly defined.

3. The outside, the chaos isn't purely good or evil. But there is freedom there.

Yeah obviously. I feel I must point out that it's not clear yet to what extent Falconia limits individual freedoms though, or even how chaotic the outside world really is (I would expect there to be a semblance of order similar to that of the animal kingdom).

Do you reject that Miura draws contrasts between Guts and Griffith? And if Griffith is the false savior, then perhaps what he's saving people from isn't all bad in Miura's view. But it isn't meant to be some cliche of good, either.

Come on, please don't insult me with fallacious questions. I think I made pretty clear what I reject. That aside, I agree with your logic here (and I have myself stated such things years ago).

But you did say in your previous post that "[e]vil is pretty clear-cut in Berserk." So if Griffith is evil, an anti-savior, then it kind of makes sense that the world he is building, or however you want to describe his (new?) dream is evil. Whatever he is ushering in is called the Age of Darkness so that's not too ambiguous to me. So I would think the characteristics of what Griffith/Femto is building would be a good indicator of what Miura is trying to say with the story about evil.

What you state here is all correct, however I have two remarks. The first one is that we don't know what the end-goal of Falconia is yet. I think it still holds some surprises for us. The second is that the core of my point to you was that I don't think your deduction that order=evil and chaos=good is valid. I've given you plenty of reasons why in my previous post, but I'll also point you to episode 301, titled "Chaos". Chaos is how is described the cooperation of humans and apostles. My own beliefs, which I've again stated many times before, are that the opposition will take a form more like "the natural order of things" VS "the human-centric, Idea of Evil-controlled order of things". And that is shown to some extent, I believe, by the opposition between the elemental magic wielded by Schierke and her kind and the kind of human-based, evil magic that powers the Idea of Evil, the God Hand, and the apostles.

My own beliefs may influence my interpretations here, but I see a pretty sterile existence where people are accepting the safety and luxury of Falconia blindly in exchange for presumably their freedom.

I completely understand what you're getting at, and like I told you in a previous post I have myself speculated along those lines before. The thought of an absolute control over mankind feels like it would perfectly fit into the Idea of Evil's schemes. What bothers me about your idea is the notion of a true utopia where there would be no despair, no sorrow, no fear, no suffering. According to episode 83, those are what fuel the Idea of Evil, what ties it to mankind. Maybe this is where the canon will diverge from it, but I still think it would be a strange development. If all of humanity were to live free of strife and negative thought, would that tie subsist? So I think those need to remain even in such a scenario. Basically, humans being content to merely live bland, meaningless lives isn't bad enough, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Kaladin on August 05, 2016, 06:33:29 AM
Looks like young animal will be releasing a berserk guidebook!

CDJapan (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/NEOBK-1985829)

Amazon Japan (https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%99%E3%83%AB%E3%82%BB%E3%83%AB%E3%82%AF-%E3%82%AA%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A3%E3%83%AB%E3%82%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%89%E3%83%96%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF-%E3%83%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8B%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B3%E3%83%9F%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9-%E4%B8%89%E6%B5%A6%E5%BB%BA%E5%A4%AA%E9%83%8E/dp/4592144805)

Release Date Will be September 23
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on August 05, 2016, 07:54:57 AM
Looks like young animal will be releasing a berserk guidebook!

Release Date Will be September 23

Good find! However I'm not sure this will be of much interest to long time fans. Maybe there'll be some new artwork from Miura for it? Or some new character names will be transliterated?
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Kaladin on August 05, 2016, 08:09:59 AM
that's exactly what i was thinking, probably no new significant information about the story. Hopefully some new artwork on the front cover or inside the book. what would be super neat if it comes with an interview with miura  :carcus:. new transliterated names would be pretty neat too, especially for the new characters on skellig, the young mages and the gurus. i also wanna know if its laban or raban, better be raban  :femto:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: jackson_hurley on August 06, 2016, 01:50:03 PM
I'd like a map, or a mini map. I've always been curious to see what the countries and continent must look like. Especially Midland.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on August 06, 2016, 07:09:17 PM
I'd like a map, or a mini map. I've always been curious to see what the countries and continent must look like. Especially Midland.

A map of the entire world would be pretty awesome. I've always wondered wether there's more than one continent. Also more remote islands is always sweet.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on August 06, 2016, 09:19:42 PM
I've always wondered wether there's more than one continent.

There seems to be, from what we see in episode 305.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Kaladin on August 06, 2016, 10:12:59 PM
a map of falconia or a never before seen angles of the city would be pretty cool too
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Walter on August 07, 2016, 04:45:53 PM
A map of the entire world would be pretty awesome. I've always wondered wether there's more than one continent. Also more remote islands is always sweet.

As Aaz already said, we get a good look at the surrounding geography in Ep 305. I made these little images to provide a slightly better look: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=10381.msg170647#msg170647
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Griffith on August 08, 2016, 09:03:58 PM
As Aaz already said, we get a good look at the surrounding geography in Ep 305. I made these little images to provide a slightly better look: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=10381.msg170647#msg170647

Wow, I forgot about all this (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=4545.msg188384#msg188384) discussion of a "map." Multiple threads too. I could totally see Miura just doing one extemporaneously one day, and by extemporaneously, I mean he'd spend months on it. :ganishka:
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Feeblecursedone on August 19, 2016, 08:10:10 PM
If Molda gets to join the group I hope we'll see more of her blood-sacrifice magic. Otherwise I can't think of what use would her role be in the group since we already have two witches.

I like her " fight evil with evil " approach to the situation.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Aazealh on August 19, 2016, 08:23:43 PM
If Molda gets to join the group I hope we'll see more of her blood-sacrifice magic.

Molda doesn't do "blood-sacrifice magic". She used a forbidden relic that had been in storage, probably since time immemorial, because the island's standard defenses had proven insufficient against Guts and co. Her own brand of magic will most likely be in the same vein as that of the other witches on the island.

Otherwise I can't think of what use would her role be in the group since we already have two witches.

Well it's not at all guaranteed she'll join the group for now, anyway. In fact the evolution of the current group itself remains to be seen, what with everything that's going to happen. Some members might leave, others might join, they might split into two groups with different immediate objectives...

I like her " fight evil with evil " approach to the situation.

I don't think that's really how she pictured it. To quote her: "dolls are made to be played with". She just used something that was available, and felt that it would be a waste to not use it when needed. And she disregarded the fact she wasn't supposed to do it. She's really closer to a rebellious teen than to a gritty "fight fire with fire" anti-hero.
Title: Re: Episode 345
Post by: Vixen Comics on August 26, 2016, 03:02:51 AM
I hope that while everyone is here on Skellig that Farnese can truly come into her own and get fitted with a witch outfit like all the other witches on Skellig. It would be fitting for her since she is at this point a true and genuine witch at this point.