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Berserk => Speculation Nation => Topic started by: flip on August 31, 2016, 05:29:01 PM

Title: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: flip on August 31, 2016, 05:29:01 PM
After years of waiting, finally we're seeing Guts and Casca reach Elfhelm. The place looks incredibly idyllic, and it seems like a perfect safe haven... which means we'll definitely see the place crash and burn soon. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on how this next bloodbath will occur. We've had two times so far where I imagine, from recent foreshadowing, that there are three big elements that are about to become important.

First, and most obvious, we have the God Hand's interest in destroying the spirit woods, as stated on episode 345. What isn't stated, but is made clear by several comparisons between Skellig and Flora's woods, is that Elfhelm itself seems to be one of these places, and presumably one of the last ones left. So, it stands to reason that the island is a huge target. The amount of witches and fantasy creatures on the place might make it so it's better suited to defend itself from an Apostle attack. For this reason, I imagine the God Hand might actually want to get personally involved in the invasion. We may see at least one of them attacking, maybe even all five (or four, if Griffith is too busy running his city).

Then there is the matter of the Beherit. It's getting a lot of attention recently, with Gedfring giving us some clarification about what it does, as well as restating Flora's questions about who its true owner might be. I think this points towards a payoff to Guts's possession of the item, meaning it's about to finally be activated again.

And lastly, we have Casca. It's about time she gets her sanity back, but as the Skull Knight has implied, she may not see eye-to-eye with Guts. Now, what she'll actually do and remember is anyone's guess. Will she remember all those years with the mentality of a child? Will she know about her kid, and its relation to Griffith? How will she react to all of that, if she does remember? Be it as it may, the story has being pointing towards she and Guts not ending this arc on happy terms with each other.

So, my speculation on how these things will connect is as follows. Casca will be healed, probably with a bit of struggle to get there, but she'll not just gladly rejoin Guts's party. She'll be livid with rage, much like Guts at his darkest hour, the memories of the Eclipse still as fresh on her mind as if they had just happened. This, and the realisation of her powerlessness will make her activate the Beherit and start the Apostle-making ritual. Now, I see two possibilities here. She'll either try to pull a Ganishka and become an Apostle to fight against the God Hand, putting her in direct opposition with Guts, or we may actually see the Apostle-to-be refusing the call for once. Either way, it won't matter, for the activation of the Beherit will open a path for the God Hand to invade the island, bypassing any magical barriers that might have existed there, and another huge battle will ensue. This might be an event as traumatic as the original Eclipse and the fake Eclipse after that, with a few of the characters of Guts's new group dying in the process, and the island being destroyed. But I also think it might have some positive outcomes. Maybe one of the God Hand will even perish fighting the Flowerstorm King, giving the heroes a bit of hope by proving that they can be defeated after all, and setting things up for the endgame.

So, what do you guys think of these predictions, and how do you guys think events will unflod?
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Lawliet on August 31, 2016, 06:16:12 PM
After years of waiting, finally we're seeing Guts and Casca reach Elfhelm. The place looks incredibly idyllic, and it seems like a perfect safe haven... which means we'll definitely see the place crash and burn soon.
I don't think Berserk is that kind of story tbh. That's not just predictable but also done to death in so many works.

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And lastly, we have Casca. It's about time she gets her sanity back, but as the Skull Knight has implied, she may not see eye-to-eye with Guts. Now, what she'll actually do and remember is anyone's guess. Will she remember all those years with the mentality of a child? Will she know about her kid, and its relation to Griffith? How will she react to all of that, if she does remember? Be it as it may, the story has being pointing towards she and Guts not ending this arc on happy terms with each other.

The only thing Skull Knight meant was that Casca may not want to get her sanity back, as this will cause her to remember the Eclipse. That's how I understand the "your wish may not be her wish" statement. Not that she and Guts  wouldn't see eye to eye. Sure there may be some problems at first but I don't think they will end the arc on bad terms.

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So, my speculation on how these things will connect is as follows. Casca will be healed, probably with a bit of struggle to get there, but she'll not just gladly rejoin Guts's party. She'll be livid with rage, much like Guts at his darkest hour, the memories of the Eclipse still as fresh on her mind as if they had just happened. This, and the realisation of her powerlessness will make her activate the Beherit and start the Apostle-making ritual. Now, I see two possibilities here. She'll either try to pull a Ganishka and become an Apostle to fight against the God Hand, putting her in direct opposition with Guts, or we may actually see the Apostle-to-be refusing the call for once. Either way, it won't matter, for the activation of the Beherit will open a path for the God Hand to invade the island, bypassing any magical barriers that might have existed there, and another huge battle will ensue. This might be an event as traumatic as the original Eclipse and the fake Eclipse after that, with a few of the characters of Guts's new group dying in the process, and the island being destroyed. But I also think it might have some positive outcomes. Maybe one of the God Hand will even perish fighting the Flowerstorm King, giving the heroes a bit of hope by proving that they can be defeated after all, and setting things up for the endgame.

Some problems with this:

1. If I understand how the beherit works correctly, it makes the person using it go to the God Hand and not the opposite. So they can't use it to get to Elfhelm I believe.
2. Beherits are also activated when it's user is utterly broken. I don't think that's what we would describe Casca when the Sovereign of the Flower Storm is done with her.
3. I'm not sure we know how Beherits work exactly now that the God Hand are present in the world.
4. It's probably too early for a battle you're describing to take place.

IMO the entire thing sounds far too unlikely.

Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Nothingwillbewong on August 31, 2016, 06:42:06 PM
Honestly what I'm more interested in is what the corridor of dreams will be all about if it will be an mc escher like universe inside casca or something much simpler than that
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: favole on August 31, 2016, 08:59:16 PM
I agree with Lawliet, not to say your idea of a bloodbath is completely unlikely because we can't really know for sure (as it's just the beginning of their time there), but Skellig Island remained out of Griffith's interest so far, so why would he suddenly order an attack on the island?

As several people already explained in different threads, now that the world tree appeared, it doesn't seem likely that Griffith would attack simply to destroy a few more spirit woods, I think the matter of the Beherit is completely unrelated and it's not because of Guts and Casca's presence on the island either, since he has no more feelings about them as he said in volume 22.

So if there is a bloodbath at some point on Skellig Island, I think the triggering event leading to it did not happen yet in the story, that's why for the moment, with what we've read about, I would also consider it's unlikely.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: DANGERDOOOOM on August 31, 2016, 10:36:15 PM
She'll either try to pull a Ganishka and become an Apostle to fight against the God Hand, putting her in direct opposition with Guts, or we may actually see the Apostle-to-be refusing the call for once.

Ganishka didn't become an apostle just so he could be in disposition of the God Hand. He decided that later himself as an apostle.

Either way, no. I highly doubt Casca will activate the beherit and become an apostle.

Maybe one of the God Hand will even perish fighting the Flowerstorm King, giving the heroes a bit of hope by proving that they can be defeated after all, and setting things up for the endgame.

We don't know the power of the Sovereign of Flower Storm compared to that of the God Hand as of yet. I doubt the God Hand will make a true appearance on Elfhelm unless the beherit is somehow activated. If one was to make an appearance, it would be like what happened in the Qliphoth with Guts and Slan.

The idea of having one of the God Hand die by the Sovereign of Flower Storm doesn't have a lot of weight on it now.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Lithrael on September 01, 2016, 12:09:15 PM
Either way, no. I highly doubt Casca will activate the beherit and become an apostle.

Though it would be quite a twist, it's off the table from the start because all the things that would make suitable Casca-sacrifices have already been sacrificed.  You'd need a lot of post-sane Casca time in the story to even try to build up an idea like her caring enough about Farnese or even (if it were possible) moon baby, before that choice would have any narrative tension.  (Though it'd make a cute Omake for her to end the show by sacrificing Incarnated GrifFemto.)
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: MrFlibble on September 12, 2016, 09:47:15 PM
I don't believe there are any large tradgic twists due for Elfhelm, the Eclipse sometimes paints the themes of the series in the wrong light, Berserk isn't constant tragedy and suffering (just a lot of it  :guts:).

I don't believe Casca will use the Beirut for two reasons
1) Guts is Griffiths sacrifice, and sacrifices cannot be branded twice, since you can only sacrifice what is most important to you, and the only two candidates that fit the bill for Casca are off limits, Casca has nothing to sacrifice.

2) Cascas mind was restored in a game written by Miura, in that she doesn't react with hatred or insanity towards Guts, I know it's reaching to use a forgotten game from the nineties as evidence for what will happen now, Miura is the type to foreshadow things long in advance, so I think this is an indication that Casca will not lose her mind upon regaining her sanity.

I can imagine the God Hand invading Elfhelm, and I honestly don't think Griffith is suited to the task, however I'm not sure how the God Hand will accomplish this, as far as we know they are still relegated to only appearing in habitats of immense darkness, how they will manage to manifest in happy Elf land is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Vixen Comics on September 17, 2016, 05:13:55 AM
I'm a little disturbed by how some think Casca will be the cause of the next tragedy on elf helm though some kind of betrayal like using the beherit to sacrifice someone. Hasn't it been touched on a sacrifice can't be sacrificed twice? Or try to sacrifice some one else? Also I really would be upset if Casca post healing would have such a weak character as to even resort to using the beherit. The thing ruined her life and she witnessed everyone she cared about killed because of the Godhand. I don't think she would resort to using one herself.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Delta Phi on September 17, 2016, 10:55:30 PM
Or try to sacrifice some one else?

That hasn't be specifically addressed. Twice Slan has mused over Guts becoming an apostle, even though he is branded. If it were impossible I don't know that she would keep bringing it up. Though the second time she mentions it (in the Qliphoth), it seems she is merely trying to provoke an emotional response out of Guts instead of actually seriously suggesting it.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Cyrus Jong on September 18, 2016, 12:47:34 AM
That hasn't be specifically addressed. Twice Slan has mused over Guts becoming an apostle, even though he is branded. If it were impossible I don't know that she would keep bringing it up. Though the second time she mentions it (in the Qliphoth), it seems she is merely trying to provoke an emotional response out of Guts instead of actually seriously suggesting it.
I really wouldn't say the first instance (which I assume is during the Count's ceremony in Volume 3) was suggesting it either. She just remarked how she would "love it" if Guts "became one of [theirs]," which Conrad immediately shoots down. Personally, I don't take it to mean anything other than how she expresses her depraved lust for him. Or perhaps how she would love the irony of someone who becomes an Apostle despite (or more accurately, because) of his supreme hatred for them.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Walter on September 18, 2016, 01:14:33 AM
Hasn't it been touched on a sacrifice can't be sacrificed twice? Or try to sacrifice some one else?

I don't think the series has ruled out a sacrifice using a Beherit. It's just unlikely to happen in the story, and wouldn't make a terrible amount of sense. For years I thought it strictly wasn't possible, because of Conrad's words in Vol 3. But then I noticed something about when God Hand talk are talking about Beherits and being ordained by causality.

I think what Conrad said had less to do with Guts being a sacrifice, and more to do with his relationship with the Beherit. Conrad said Guts wasn't "ordained" to be among them as an apostle during the Count's ceremony. But shortly afterwards, Guts ends up with a Beherit, which he's carried around ever since. Now, let's recall Ubik's words to Griffith in Volume 12: "From the moment you took possession of that crimson Beherit, you had the qualities to become a demon ... No, perhaps I should say that because you had those qualities, it fell into your hands."

Though these two dialogues are separated by almost 10 volumes worth of material, the thrust of this argument is reinforced by the repeated urgings from Slan (Vol 3, 26) and the specters (Vol 16), for Guts to use it. That could all be merely dramatic tension or a true threat. But if he ever took the offer, it would be a dead-end in terms of the story.

Let's apply that potential outcome to the two most obvious scenarios:

Guts takes the deal, however unlikely that sounds. This effectively ends the series. Guts is no longer a human, and the God Hand have influence over him, just like what happened when Ganishka faced Griffith in Vritannis. Thus, the conflict at the heart of the series would come to a swift and unsatisfying end.

Casca takes the deal. There'd be no saving her from that. Whether he can bring himself to kill her or not, Guts would be demoralized, and his consistent savior to relinquish the Beast's hold on him would be gone.

So... yeah, it's not something I like spending too much time debating. I'm a pragmatic guy, and hypotheticals aren't really my thing. Instead, as we've said here for years, I can't help but think that Miura has bigger plans for it than merely another apostle ceremony.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 01, 2017, 05:49:19 PM
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Casca takes the deal. There'd be no saving her from that. Whether he can bring himself to kill her or not, Guts would be demoralized, and his consistent savior to relinquish the Beast's hold on him would be gone.

I do believe that Casca is the character who is most likely to use Guts' Beherit and this is why.

The Beherit that Guts is carrying is basically a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

There's no reason for that Beherit to be there unless it will be used by someone in Guts' party. I'm just saying that Casca is more qualified to use it than anyone else in Guts' party.

What's the most important lesson from the Eclipse? That sometimes people can't go back to how they used to be.

All the warning signs are there that something bad might happen after Casca's mind is "fixed":

1. Nobody asked Casca if she wants to be cured. That's probably the most important thing about all this. Guts, Farnese, and Schierke may think that they are helping Casca, but does Casca see it that way?

2. Guts didn't tell his new comrades anything about what really happened during the Eclipse or about Casca's miscarriage or about their child. Schierke might have some ideas about what happened (although she is obviously wrong about the moonchild being the Elf Queen's avatar) but Farnese is totally clueless. Are they really qualified to fix Casca's mind? I'm not so sure. I believe that only Guts can truly help Casca, but the problem is that Casca now hates and fears him.

3. What exactly is being hinted at in Episode 202 when Guts asks Flora to teach him how to use the Beherit and we see Casca suddenly run into the room. Why is she there? Guts isn't going to sacrifice Casca (or anyone else) so what's Miura trying to tell us in that scene? It's not like Casca suddenly wanted to be with Guts, she already hates and fears him at that point in the story.

4. Casca isn't 100% mentally disabled. She was able to safely jump down the cliff in the Conviction story arc, she was able to pick up a sword and kill those bandits who tried to rape her in the Falcon Of The Millennium story arc, and she is clearly able to recognize her child. We even see her feeding the moonchild in Episode 238. What happens if Casca really didn't want her mind to be "fixed"? Will she get angry? Will she become irrational and hostile to the party? Even Golden Age Casca was emotionally disturbed and suicidal at one point. She just isn't as strong as Guts physically and mentally.

We have seen many times in Berserk that people can't escape their fate no matter what they do. I understand why many fans might not like such a tragic outcome. But even if most fans don't like it, that doesn't make it illogical.

I am certainly not suggesting that Casca will suddenly turn into an evil, vengeful bitch and sacrifice Farnese just to get a power up. Of course not, that would be stupid. Casca will have to hit rock bottom and be at a point of no return before she uses the Beherit. If it happens, it happens. I expect that Miura will not disappoint us. The Skull Knight did warn Guts that Casca may not want what he wants. Miura has never mislead the audience before. He basically told us back then that there won't be any happy ending for Guts & Casca.
And we have seen that the Godhand can be very persuasive. They don't exactly lie but they do twist the truth to convince the person who summoned them to accept their offer. Casca does have something that her new friends can't help her with, her child.

Again, it's not so implausible that the Godhand might show Casca visions of her child and convince her that the only way she can "save" her child is by ascending beyond normal human limits. It doesn't help than one of the Godhand is a woman. Slan might convince Casca that:

1. she can't rely on others
2. the men who she loved have only hurt her
3. a good mother will sacrifice anything for her child

Golden Age Casca would never accept anything the Godhand have to offer but that version of Casca doesn't exist anymore. She is now a rape victim and a mother who lost her child. Her mind regressed to an infantile state for a good reason.

Guts is the only person there who truly loves Casca and knows everything about her. That's undeniable. I believe that Guts is far more qualified to help heal Casca's mind than some kid who barely knows her or some friendly noblewoman who knows almost nothing about what Casca has been through. So it looks very strange that the Elf Queen (who supposedly knows everything) already refused to use the power of love to cure Casca in this magical therapy session. It almost looks like the therapy session is already set up to fail badly, not because the Elf Queen has any malicious intentions but because it has to fail to advance the story.
And I don't buy the explanation that the all-powerful Elf Queen (who knows everything) somehow can't use her magic to calm Casca down so that Guts can participate in the therapy.

And just to remind everyone how unqualified Schierke is to help Casca during the therapy, see Episode 252. She couldn't even help Casca bathe. Casca doesn't listen to her and doesn't obey her at all. Farnese is more qualified than Schierke but see Episode 288. Farnese doesn't understand why Casca hates and fears Guts. What is Miura telling us here? That Farnese has good intentions but she doesn't really know Casca at all.

Of course we know that the Godhand are evil bastards who couldn't care less about actually helping Casca but does Casca understand this? What she knows is that the Godhand took Griffith's broken, incapacitated body and gave him a new life.

Casca does remember how the apostles raped her but this is unfortunately yet another reason why she might accept the Godhand's offer now. Casca might feel that she must become stronger at any cost so that nobody can hurt her again. She isn't stupid. Even if she is given a magical weapon I don't see her getting very far. Hell, Serpico and Isidro have magical weapons but they didn't kill a single apostle during the battle in the Spirit Tree Forest, and there's no spare set of berserker armor for Casca to use.

What is Casca's dream now? She wanted to be useful to Griffith but that dream is over. I think that now Casca just wants to be with her child but she also wants to be strong enough so that men and demons can't hurt her ever again. Looking at this from her point of view it actually makes a lot of sense for her to ascend beyond human limits.

And yes I definitely understand why many fans don't like this idea at all. They want Golden Age Casca back. They want Guts and Casca to become lovers again. They want Guts and Casca to work together to defeat Griffith and then settle down and live happily ever after. But this is Berserk that we are talking about. Guts not dying in the end would be a happy ending.

Speaking of what may happen in Elfhelm, we know that Griffith considers all magic users to be a threat. But his army can't launch a surprise attack on Elfhelm because all the wizards and witches can sense od. They would be able to sense the evil od of Griffith's soldiers from miles away. The archmages and the Elf Queen are certainly smart enough to expect and prepare for an invasion from the outside. So what's the best way to destroy Elfhelm? Have someone (Casca) use the Beherit to summon the Godhand in Elfhelm.

We haven't yet seen members of the Godhand fight a real battle. We don't know what they are truly capable of but it's obvious that they are much more powerful than the apostles. If anyone can destroy Elfhelm, it's them.

Nothing is a coincidence in Berserk. It's not a coincidence that Guts obtained the Count's Beherit. It's not a coincidence that Zodd destroyed the elf cave thus forcing Guts and Casca to travel to Elfhelm in the first place. And it's not a coincidence that Farnese in now Casca's best friend and easily qualifies as a sacrifice.

Guts was warned that it's dangerous to own and carry a Beherit but he didn't listen, something bad has to happen sooner or later.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Walter on January 02, 2017, 01:43:44 AM
Thanks for the long post Awful Truth. I always appreciate it when people endeavor to clearly articulate their points.

It seems that my post might have spurred yours on, but I think you're discounting some of the nitty gritty details, along with the natural fallout, of a scenario where Casca sacrifices someone. Who would it be? How would Guts move on after such an event?

The Beherit that Guts is carrying is basically a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

I don't think it's necessary to namecall Chekov's Gun in relation to Guts' beherit. Its significance and the dramatic tension surrounding it has been made pretty clear. And I also think viewing it through this lens -- introducing an object with a singular purpose that must be used in that way or dramatic tension will remain unfulfilled -- is misleading. We've seen the function of beherits subverted before, and I doubt we've seen the last of it.

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What's the most important lesson from the Eclipse? That sometimes people can't go back to how they used to be.

They won't go back to how they used to be. Casca is inevitably going to emerge a different woman. The relationship dynamic with Guts is going to be different as well. I also don't think that's THE fundamental lesson of the Eclipse. Instead, it's:  A true friend stabs you in the front :guts: :griffnotevil:

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1. Nobody asked Casca if she wants to be cured. That's probably the most important thing about all this. Guts, Farnese, and Schierke may think that they are helping Casca, but does Casca see it that way?

They have had no way of doing that. But the real reason for the obscurity here is that Miura has chosen to leave Casca's intentions as a blank slate, likely to create suspense for events to be revealed in the coming episodes.

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Are they really qualified to fix Casca's mind? I'm not so sure. I believe that only Guts can truly help Casca, but the problem is that Casca now hates and fears him.

Danan seemed to think so, and given her obvious mastery over this ceremony, I don't foresee her insistence on omitting Guts backfiring on them. Rather, Guts' lack of presence there now signals that his role in reaclimating Casca (and rediscovering who this new Casca is) is going to be a separate struggle that's yet to come.

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3. What exactly is being hinted at in Episode 202 when Guts asks Flora to teach him how to use the Beherit and we see Casca suddenly run into the room. Why is she there?

I think you might be looking too hard for evidence. Casca wanders into view for a narrative purpose -- so that the topic of conversation can naturally change to her.

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4. Casca isn't 100% mentally disabled.

I've never seen anyone argue that she was...?

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What happens if Casca really didn't want her mind to be "fixed"? Will she get angry? Will she become irrational and hostile to the party?

Casca, get angry? Noooooo. :ganishka: Seriously though, what are you insinuating exactly? That she'll become a threat to the party?

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I understand why many fans might not like such a tragic outcome. But even if most fans don't like it, that doesn't make it illogical.

What would be illogical is for Miura to string out Casca's tragic demise for more than 20 years, with Guts suffering all along the way, only to cash out at the end with another bucket o tragedy. Instead of what it seems like is happening: A journey of restoration, after which Guts may finally have the ally he needs who can rescue him from his own torments.

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The Skull Knight did warn Guts that Casca may not want what he wants. Miura has never mislead the audience before. He basically told us back then that there won't be any happy ending for Guts & Casca.

That's a very specific reading of a very general prophecy.

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Casca does have something that her new friends can't help her with, her child.

Don't know about that. These friends are probably the ones who ARE going to help her with her child.

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I believe that Guts is far more qualified to help heal Casca's mind than some kid who barely knows her or some friendly noblewoman who knows almost nothing about what Casca has been through. So it looks very strange that the Elf Queen (who supposedly knows everything) already refused to use the power of love to cure Casca in this magical therapy session. It almost looks like the therapy session is already set up to fail badly, not because the Elf Queen has any malicious intentions but because it has to fail to advance the story.

Whew, this sounds like something you should take up in Elfhelm Appeals Court, not here. Anyway, it seems to me that you're overlooking the real culprit here. Guts knows Casca better, certainly. But Danan (wisely) detects that he could do more harm than help because of their history. That's pretty logical, to me.

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And I don't buy the explanation that the all-powerful Elf Queen (who knows everything) somehow can't use her magic to calm Casca down so that Guts can participate in the therapy.

This sounds ridiculous, even in the context of them inhaling spores and mind-melding with Casca. A spell so that she's calm when they're intentionally seeking out her inner mind to help her confront her about her darkest memories? How would that work exactly? Wouldn't such a thing be against the grain of the entire mission? At that point, why have this scene at all? Why not just have the Queen cast a spell to restore Casca period?

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Of course we know that the Godhand are evil bastards who couldn't care less about actually helping Casca but does Casca understand this? What she knows is that the Godhand took Griffith's broken, incapacitated body and gave him a new life.

And condemned she and her friends to being eviscerated and raped.

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Casca does remember how the apostles raped her but this is unfortunately yet another reason why she might accept the Godhand's offer now. Casca might feel that she must become stronger at any cost so that nobody can hurt her again. She isn't stupid.

She isn't stupid, but this notion is. "Condemn me? I'll serve you. Devour my friends and make a sexual plaything of my unconscious body? Let's hang. Hands off my kid, though."

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Hell, Serpico and Isidro have magical weapons but they didn't kill a single apostle during the battle in the Spirit Tree Forest

Granted, they had about 2 days of experience using those weapons and no knowledge of apostles. I'll bet they could take out quite a few now. Weird topic to bring up here...?

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What is Casca's dream now?

We haven't met the new Casca yet.

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And yes I definitely understand why many fans don't like this idea at all. They want Golden Age Casca back.

Not sure who you're talking about exactly, but anyone who expects that the Corridor of Dreams is going to somehow result in Golden Age Casca isn't a very close reader of Berserk.

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They want Guts and Casca to become lovers again. They want Guts and Casca to work together to defeat Griffith and then settle down and live happily ever after. But this is Berserk that we are talking about.

That's right, it's Berserk, not Game of Thrones. The author of Berserk is interested in telling a consequential story that flows naturally, not with fits and starts of murder to punctuate the boring scenes. The series does not necessarily need to end with every main character's head on a pike.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 02, 2017, 03:08:09 AM
Chekov's Gun is a good point, but I don't see why it must be used by any member of Guts party : perhaps Guts just carry it for someone else, could even be someone we haven't even met yet. Maybe the beherit won't be used at all the way we've seen so far, but as a mean to reach a better understanding of the God Hands and their potential weaknesses.

I agree it must have a purpose, but at this point we can't know for sure what it'll be used for.

1. Skullknight himself hinted that, indeed, she might not want to be "cured" as it would mean remembering the Eclipse. We can't really say what will happen, but in my opinion it's really unlikely Casca will use the Beherit to become an apostle, first and foremost because she has nothing to sacrifice, she already lost it all.

She has Farnese. Since Volume 24 to the latest episode Casca treats Farnese as her best friend.

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2.The way I understand it, the cluelessness of Farnese and Schierke is precisely their strenght to perform the ritual : they don't know about the eclipse, so they don't have any hatred or any other strong, negative feeling that could lead to a failure... And they are witches, their understanding of the astral world can't hurt in the Corridor of Dreams.

The Elf Queen warned them that what they will see in Casca's dreams may not be 100% true. Of course we haven't yet seen the official English translation of Episode 347 but if the scanlations are accurate it may mean that Farnese and Schierke will not necessarily see the Eclipse or even the aftermath of the Eclipse. They might see "Casca's version" of what happened but it may be very different from the truth. This is why I believe that they aren't really qualified to help Casca. Guts knows Casca much better than they do. Guts could probably figure out what Casca's dreams really mean.

It's not just the Eclipse, what's much more important is why Casca now hates and fears Guts. Farnese and Schierke don't know that Guts abandoned Casca in a cave for 2 years, physically and sexually assaulted her, tied her up like a prisoner, and dragged her along against her will. This is very important. I always assumed that Casca's therapy will involve Guts going into her mind and apologizing to her for what he did. I'm sure that Farnese and Schierke will see "Casca's version" of what Guts did, but the problem is they don't know what really happened. So how can they possibly understand what Casca is trying to tell them?

What may happen is that Casca's "dream version" of Guts will be a cruel and ugly monster that bears no resemblance to the real Guts. If "dream Guts" appears as the werewolf-like creature Farnese and Schierke may notice a resemblance to the berserker armor. But how do you think they will react to that? We can't deny that Farnese and Schierke have feelings for Guts. In other words, they are biased. They see Guts as a hero who always protects Casca. It may never occur to them that maybe Guts did something bad to Casca. And we already saw that Farnese is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. I will not be surprised if Farnese finally snaps and flat out accuses Casca of being an ungrateful bitch. Of course the Elf Queen can always interrupt the therapy if things begin to go wrong but I still don't understand why Farnese and Schierke were chosen to participate in this therapy in the first place. Why couldn't the Elf Queen do it herself or perhaps ask more experienced witches for help? I'm sure there are plenty of them in Elfhelm.

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4. All these times her life was at stake, I don't think she will try to react violently while being "cured".

Well, the main issue here is if Casca even wants to be cured and also how she is cured. If Casca is cured against her will by two people who don't really know her and don't really understand her feelings it can easily lead to a tragic outcome. Casca might feel that she was betrayed by her new friends, that they violated her mind. And if that happens Casca may very well hit rock bottom and thus qualify to use that Beherit.

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Except it's not consistant with what we've seen so far, Beherit's users are taken to the God Hands, not the other way around. We don't know how it works in Fantasia, but it's pretty unlikely anyway.

The people who used their Beherits were taken to the Godhand's realm when the physical world and the astral world were still separate. But that's no longer the case. Guts didn't use his Beherit in the Troll Cave but that didn't stop Slan from appearing. And we have seen in Volume 34 that the other 4 members of the Godhand are now in the physical world even though they don't have actual physical bodies. Think about that for a minute. There are literally 5 angels/devils now living somewhere in the physical world. They are a huge threat.

We have seen what the 4 Elemental Kings and various other spirits who were summoned by Schierke are capable of. I'm sure that the oldest, most experienced mages in Elfhelm can put up a very strong resistance to any invasion from the outside world.

If the Godhand do not appear in Elfhelm I don't see any other way how Elfhelm can be destroyed. Griffith's human soldiers would stand no chance against real magic users let alone against all the mythical creatures in Elfhelm. Even the apostles would have a hard time conquering the whole island and killing every single magic user. Griffith has always been portrayed as a military genius, he isn't likely to start a battle that he can't win.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 02, 2017, 04:17:43 AM
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What would be illogical is for Miura to string out Casca's tragic demise for more than 20 years, with Guts suffering all along the way, only to cash out at the end with another bucket o tragedy. Instead of what it seems like is happening: A journey of restoration, after which Guts may finally have the ally he needs who can rescue him from his own torments.

I'm aware that this may be what Miura has in mind but does this really make sense? You said it yourself, the new Casca will not be the Golden Age Casca. I don't see why the new Casca should "rescue" Guts from his own inner demons.

Guts fell in love (and conceived a child) with Golden Age Casca, not with this new Casca. And let's be realistic here, I know this sounds like a broken record but Guts did some pretty bad things to Casca. Guts abandoned Casca in a cave for 2 years, physically and sexually assaulted her, tied her up like a prisoner, and dragged her along against her will. Most people wouldn't stay friends after something like that. I will not be surprised if Casca decides that she wants nothing to do with Guts and Griffith ever again.

Having Casca hit rock bottom and use the Beherit thus causing the destruction of Elfhelm sounds like Eclipse 3.0 and I understand why that would be boring and predictable to some fans.

But having the new, cured Casca somehow "help" Guts in the future would be equally cliched and boring in my opinion. I know that it's a work of fiction and it's not going to be 100% realistic but you know... Guts did some pretty bad things to Casca. Why should Casca do anything for Guts after she is cured? Why can't she move on with her life and pursue her own dreams?

Guts has many new friends who can help him. Why not use them?

I believe that the story is nowhere near finished and I certainly don't believe that Elfhelm will be the last stop for Guts and his party. I don't even see Elfhelm as the last bastion of humanity. But I do think that Silat's hometown will be that place.
The Bakiraka philosophy of relying only on "our own bodies and skills" to survive in Berserk's cruel world (not some God, or angels, or other supernatural beings) fits Guts perfectly. That's exactly what Guts has been doing since he was a kid and that's exactly the kind of allies he needs. They, and his friends, can help him to overcome his inner demons.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Vixen Comics on January 02, 2017, 06:22:21 AM
The awful truth I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this. I don't know where to start. You keep mentioning guts did a lot of bad things to casca but he has done a lot of good things for her as well. Do you think none of that will have any bearing on casca? My hope is that casca will be able to objectively evaluate the things that occurred to her after she gets her mind back. And Farnese is not a bitch, she won't call casca an ungrateful bitch regardless on whether or not she has feelings for guts and idolises him. Farnese has supported casca this whole time why would that stop?
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 02, 2017, 08:29:11 AM
The awful truth I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this. I don't know where to start. You keep mentioning guts did a lot of bad things to casca but he has done a lot of good things for her as well. Do you think none of that will have any bearing on casca? My hope is that casca will be able to objectively evaluate the things that occurred to her after she gets her mind back. And Farnese is not a bitch, she won't call casca an ungrateful bitch regardless on whether or not she has feelings for guts and idolises him. Farnese has supported casca this whole time why would that stop?

I will be honest, I never liked Casca as a character. Her obsession with Griffith, her hysterical behavior, her screaming at Guts that it's all his fault after Griffith got wounded fighting Zodd. I know this isn't a popular opinion but Casca was always an annoying, unpleasant person. She was always subconsciously hostile to Guts since the day Guts joined the Band Of The Hawk.

The biggest problem is that nobody ever told Casca to shut the hell up and know her place. Guts, Griffith, Pippin, and Judo were much better warriors than Casca. We saw it during the battles with the Chuder army, during Griffith's rescue mission, and again during the Eclipse. Of course some fans will say that Casca was under a lot of pressure since she was the only woman in the BOTH and so her worst behavior should be excused. Well you know what, nobody forced her to become a mercenary. It was her choice.

What really made me hate her was her behavior in Volume 9 when she attacked Guts at the waterfall (and this was after Guts once again saved her life a few hours earlier). Comrades aren't supposed to treat each other that way.
I know that people will say "but that was Golden Age Casca and we aren't getting that version of Casca back". So what? She hasn't been a relevant or useful member of Guts' party since 1996. Miura has introduced other female characters who are much more likeable than Casca ever was. Erika, Jill, Luca, Flora, (nice) Farnese, Schierke, Farnese's mother, Isma, and Isma's mother.

Even if Casca changes her personality 180 degrees after her therapy is over, what is the point of keeping her around now? I really do not like this idea that Guts still needs Casca to somehow help him battle his inner demons. I understand that Miura didn't plan that far ahead when he wrote the Eclipse and its aftermath but the fact is that Guts now has new female friends who treat him much better than Casca ever did. Isn't it time for Guts to move on?
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Cyrus Jong on January 02, 2017, 10:42:14 AM
And so the "awful truth" as it is comes out. It's amusing how there's always a correlation between how much someone dislikes Casca and how much they theorize she'll turn traitor.

The Awful Truth, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You dismiss why Farnese should partake in the ceremony to restore Casca's mind because she doesn't know her (and even go so far as to say that Farnese won't even try to understand Casca's point of view), but then turn around and say that she's Casca's best friend and the one to qualify as a sacrifice. Either they have a deep emotional bond or they don't. You can't have it both ways. You also ignore a lot of points that were clearly spelled out. Danan outright says that Guts can't delve into Casca's dreams because her fear of him would disturb the ritual. Those who are tied to Casca are the ones most qualified to help her. That's why Schierke and Farnese were sent in, and complete strangers like the witches of Elfhelm were not. And being as Danan knows how the ritual goes and what needs to be done for it to be a success, I'd say she's a hell of a lot more qualified than you are in knowing what's best for Casca.

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I know this isn't a popular opinion but Casca was always a bitch. She was always subconsciously hostile to Guts since the day Guts joined the Band Of The Hawk.

No, she wasn't. They didn't get along at first, and they butted heads a lot, but they did bond during their time, and she did a lot of nice things to him too. Are you forgetting how happy Casca was to see Guts was alive amidst the piles of dead mercs after the hundred-man battle? How Casca healed Guts' wounds with elven powder and they shared their "Bonfire of Dreams" conversation. How she really didn't want Guts to leave the Falcons? How she comforted him when he had his emotional breakdown during their love scene?

Yeah, what a bitch.  :schierke:

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The biggest problem is that nobody ever told Casca to shut the hell up and know her place. Guts, Griffith, Pippin, and Judo were much better warriors than Casca. We saw it during the battles with the Chuder army, during Griffith's rescue mission, and again during the Eclipse.

What did we see exactly? During the Hundred Year War, we only ever saw Judeau and Pippin fighting ordinary mooks. We saw Casca kill mooks too, on top of Adon, so I'd say she's already got leg up on them. While it's easy to dismiss Mister Corbowitz, anyone with passing knowledge of martial combat would see just how tremendously skilled Casca would have to be to win that fight. Adon had all the advantages; he was bigger than her, stronger, decked in thick armor, and had the advantage of range with his spear. Casca, with her comparatively puny little frame and sword, schooled him without breaking a sweat. And she was still able to kill him even while he poisoned her.

Judeau and Pippin managed to show off some more impressive feats during their clash against the Bakiraka assassins, but Casca was there too (and calling the shots), so that's not really doing much to put them over her on the warrior hierarchy. Not to mention Casca has one thing that they didn't have: leadership abilities. It wasn't Judeau, Pippin, or Guts who led the Falcons during their darkest year when they were declared traitors of Midland, it was her.

Oh, and by the way, Casca's the only person besides Guts to actually have an Apostle kill under her belt. And she didn't have any magical weapons to help her then. So she's already got a few things over the rest of Guts' crew.

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What really made me hate her was her behavior in Volume 9 when she attacked Guts at the waterfall (and this was after Guts once again saved her life a few hours earlier). Comrades aren't supposed to treat each other that way.

And you ignore everything that happened afterwards. How through simple understanding, Casca helped Guts overcome the trauma of being raped and killing his father, which had been haunting him for years, and which cut him far deeper than the little stab wound Casca inflicted on him (and regretted immediately).

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She hasn't been a relevant or useful member of Guts' party since 1996. Miura has introduced other female characters who are much more likeable than Casca ever was. Erika, Jill, Luca, Flora, (nice) Farnese, Schierke, Farnese's mother, Isma, and Isma's mother.

Even if Casca changes her personality 180 degrees after her therapy is over, what is the point of keeping her around now? I really do not like this idea that Guts still needs Casca to somehow help him battle his inner demons. I understand that Miura didn't plan that far ahead when he wrote the Eclipse and its aftermath but the fact is that Guts now has new female friends who treat him much better than Casca ever did. Isn't it time for Guts to move on?

Yeah, Casca hasn't been relevant. She's only been, oh, I don't know, the entire reason this party formed in the first place and has been journeying to Elfhelm. Lovely to see how interchangeable you think female characters are too, and don't care one ounce about Casca's history with Guts, Griffith, and the child. Or don't think she can have any place in the story when she's just a stone's throw away from coming back in full force.

Sorry that Guts feels an attachment to a character that you don't. Sorry if you don't think she should or could be the one to save him from himself, even though she's done that before. Sorry you think it's awful how many mountains Guts is willing to move to help a soul who's been so terribly traumatized and that he should just "move on." There are lots of women in Berserk, but there's only one Casca, and like it or not, she's the only person Guts was ever able to confide in. It takes more than a pair of mammary glands to be able to do that.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 02, 2017, 09:19:43 PM
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You dismiss why Farnese should partake in the ceremony to restore Casca's mind because she doesn't know her (and even go so far as to say that Farnese won't even try to understand Casca's point of view), but then turn around and say that she's Casca's best friend and the one to qualify as a sacrifice. Either they have a deep emotional bond or they don't. You can't have it both ways.

Farnese qualifies as a sacrifice because Casca sees her as her best friend. And nobody can deny that Farnese is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. That scene was written for a reason.

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Those who are tied to Casca are the ones most qualified to help her. That's why Schierke and Farnese were sent in, and complete strangers like the witches of Elfhelm were not.
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Danan outright says that Guts can't delve into Casca's dreams because her fear of him would disturb the ritual.

It's true that Casca hates and fears Guts however what the Elf Queen didn't seem to consider is that Farnese and Schierke are not exactly an unbiased 3rd party. Yes, they are tied to Casca but they also have strong feelings for Guts. And this could cause a serious problem during the ritual. Farnese and Schierke do not and will not see Guts as a monster the way Casca does. They know almost nothing about Casca's past. So although they are tied to Casca they may not be the most qualified people to cure her.

This happens all the time in fiction. The characters don't know what we know. This already happened in Berserk during the Golden Age story arc. We knew from the beginning of that arc that Griffith will betray and sacrifice his comrades. But of course none of the characters in the story could ever imagine something like that happening.

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No, she wasn't. They didn't get along at first, and they butted heads a lot,


Yes, for 3 years.

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but they did bond during their time, and she did a lot of nice things to him too. Are you forgetting how happy Casca was to see Guts was alive amidst the piles of dead mercs after the hundred-man battle? How Casca healed Guts' wounds with elven powder and they shared their "Bonfire of Dreams" conversation. How she really didn't want Guts to leave the Falcons?


This happened right before the Battle for Doldrey... and then Guts left the Band Of The Hawk.

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How she comforted him when he had his emotional breakdown during their love scene? And you ignore everything that happened afterwards. How through simple understanding, Casca helped Guts overcome the trauma of being raped and killing his father, which had been haunting him for years, and which cut him far deeper than the little stab wound Casca inflicted on him (and regretted immediately).

Yes, Casca began to change for the better... a few days before the Eclipse. I'm not denying that she began to change but it was too little too late.

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she's just a stone's throw away from coming back in full force.

But we are not getting Golden Age Casca back. When Casca is cured she may get a completely different personality and nothing so far implies that she will forgive Guts or want to be with him ever again.

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Lovely to see how interchangeable you think female characters are too, and don't care one ounce about Casca's history with Guts, Griffith, and the child.

I'm aware of that fan-theory but I don't buy it because:

1. Casca's child isn't going to kill himself to help them defeat Griffith. That would be ridiculous and just bad writing because

2. The Idea Of Evil controls and manipulates causality, it planned everything exactly the way it was supposed to be. The IOE planned for Griffith to be incarnated in the body of Casca's child. Is the IOE so incompetent that it unintentionally gave Griffith a fatal flaw that will lead to his defeat? That makes no sense. The IOE is a god. It does not make stupid mistakes.
Does the IOE want Griffith to be defeated someday? That doesn't make much sense either but I guess it's a little more debatable.

I don't believe that Griffith's defeat will have anything to do with Casca or Casca's child. Guts and his allies need to somehow contain or seal away the IOE to disrupt causality. Are you familiar with the works of H.P. Lovecraft (specifically the short story called The Dunwich Horror)? That story is a good example of how the IOE might be "defeated". If Guts and his allies can do this, then and only then it may become possible to defeat Griffith and the rest of the Godhand.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Cyrus Jong on January 03, 2017, 10:15:07 AM
Farnese qualifies as a sacrifice because Casca sees her as her best friend. And nobody can deny that Farnese is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. That scene was written for a reason.

Farnese is only Casca's best friend in as much as her currently simple mind can allow. That may not (and most definitely will not) be the case once she recovers and gains more mental and emotional complexity. Because even in her current state, Casca doesn't know Farnese either. Not enough to make a worthy sacrifice. And that's assuming Casca can even recall the events that happened while she was mad, which will make it even less the case.

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It's true that Casca hates and fears Guts however what the Elf Queen didn't seem to consider is that Farnese and Schierke are not exactly an unbiased 3rd party. Yes, they are tied to Casca but they also have strong feelings for Guts. And this could cause a serious problem during the ritual. Farnese and Schierke do not and will not see Guts as a monster the way Casca does. They know almost nothing about Casca's past. So although they are tied to Casca they may not be the most qualified people to cure her.

You're assuming that any of this is going to be a problem in the ritual at all, 'cause I didn't see any sign that their impressions of Guts would affect anything. It wasn't Guts that broke Casca, it was the Eclipse, and it's the memories of that that she buried deep down in her mind. We already saw the impression of Guts that Casca has of him in her current state in e347, and it really didn't amount to anything outside of background fluff. You're also assuming that even if Guts' prior treatment of Casca does come into play during the ritual, that Schierke and Farnese are just going to turn their heads the other way and ignore it. They're not stupid, and Farnese in particular knows from experience how horrific sexual assault can be. AND she would finally have her answer as to why Casca is so hostile to Guts. It is possible that they won't keep him held up on a pedestal if they do find out too, you know.

And even if it is a problem, simple fact of the matter is that there isn't anyone better. All the witches on the island are strangers, Guts is just too unstable, Schierke is an experienced magic user who Casca is familiar with and doesn't mind, and Farnese is a witch-in-training who Casca is fond of. They're the best they've got. End of discussion.

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This happened right before the Battle for Doldrey... and then Guts left the Band Of The Hawk.

And the fact of the matter is that in that short time, their previous petty arguments no longer mattered. Guts and Casca were able to move past that and get along. Why can't you? And if you want to blame anyone for having things be cut short, then blame Guts. He's the one who left after all, even when Casca begged him not to go. Which, by the way, was a very hurtful thing of him to do to her, hence why she had such a strong emotional reaction once he came back one year later.

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Yes, Casca began to change for the better... a few days before the Eclipse. I'm not denying that she began to change but it was too little too late.

I can see there's no point in trying to change your mind since Casca's irredeemable to you. A few mean words to Guts are enough to place her over the edge, but helping him overcome the most painful memories in his life up to that point are "too little, too late."

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But we are not getting Golden Age Casca back. When Casca is cured she may get a completely different personality and nothing so far implies that she will forgive Guts or want to be with him ever again.

That wasn't my point. My point was is that she's going to become lucid soon. She's going to be able to start thinking for herself again, taking care of herself, talk, fight, find meaning in her life, and bathe without splashing water everywhere again. To continue writing her off as irrelevant (which she never was in the first place) when her recovery is happening right now is stupid as hell.

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I'm aware of that fan-theory but I don't buy it because:

What fan theory? I didn't put any theory in here whatsoever. I merely pointed out that Casca has a very unique and important connection with three extremely vital characters in the series. A connection that no one else in the series has, a connection that can't just be replaced by any female character as you seem to think, and a connection that would imply she has just as much importance as Guts, Griffith and the child.

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2. The Idea Of Evil controls and manipulates causality, it planned everything exactly the way it was supposed to be. The IOE planned for Griffith to be incarnated in the body of Casca's child. Is the IOE so incompetent that it unintentionally gave Griffith a fatal flaw that will lead to his defeat? That makes no sense. The IOE is a god. It does not make stupid mistakes.
Does the IOE want Griffith to be defeated someday? That doesn't make much sense either but I guess it's a little more debatable.

First of all, this isn't Lovecraft's story, this is Miura's. Second of all, the principle of Causality, while powerful and nearly impossible to divert, isn't absolute. Skull Knight explained this to Guts in v18.

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"The world is as moonlight reflected on the water's surface. The moon's light will not be extinguished. So long as the moon exists in the sky, moonlight will remain on the water...and this is a thing which already was.
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"Though minute singular details certainly can occur at the time junction point that even they can't predict, I will in turn gamble everything on that point. And even if it imitates the Eclipse, it doesn't mean it will be exactly the same. The scope too has natural limits in the material domain. Furthermore, that Brand carved into you, it may be an unanticipated aid. As I told you before, due to the Brand, you now live in the 'Interstice.' That is, the borderline between the physical and astral worlds. It's merely a half-step, but you are outside the reason of the world. Maybe you aren't a shadow on the water, but instead a fish that breaches the water's surface."

These junction points in time are where Causality is at its "weakest" and where the God Hand are at their least "omniscient." which is why the Skull Knight always makes his attacks when they're about to unfold. So far, his efforts haven't borne much fruit...but we do have good reason to think Guts' may have.

We're going into theoretical matters here, but tellingly, the bolded part is repeated at the end of e166 (which is, also tellingly, called "Leaping Fish"), when Guts leaps from the top of the tower, sword-first into Mozgus, and right where he needs to be to protect Casca. Guts made his choice to protect Casca at that point, putting her safety and well-being over his revenge on Griffith. The use of this line at this scene emphasizes that Guts may indeed have jumped out of the flow of Causality. Very briefly, and it didn't really change much in the grand scheme of things, for Griffith gained his physical body and went on acquire his own kingdom...but it has left the parents of the child alive. And as we saw at the beginning of v22, the child does indeed have an effect on Griffith. So there you go, a chink in Griffith's armor formed from some miniscule events that didn't go fully with "the plan" as it were.

You can dismiss that as fan theory all you like. But unlike yours, it's based on details from the manga as written by Miura, and not from some short story published in 1929.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 03, 2017, 05:29:28 PM
Farnese is only Casca's best friend in as much as her currently simple mind can allow. That may not (and most definitely will not) be the case once she recovers and gains more mental and emotional complexity. Because even in her current state, Casca doesn't know Farnese either. Not enough to make a worthy sacrifice. And that's assuming Casca can even recall the events that happened while she was mad, which will make it even less the case.

1. Farnese was written as Casca's best friend since Volume 24 for a good reason. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that there will be an Eclipse 3.0 and that Farnese will be sacrificed but if it does happen it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

2. It makes absolutely no sense for Casca to "lose her memory" of everything that happened when she was insane. What's the point? Guts still has to tell Casca the truth about her child, about Griffith, about the neo-Band Of The Hawk, etc. And at some point Farnese will want to know why Casca hates and fears Guts.

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You're also assuming that even if Guts' prior treatment of Casca does come into play during the ritual, that Schierke and Farnese are just going to turn their heads the other way and ignore it. They're not stupid, and Farnese in particular knows from experience how horrific sexual assault can be. AND she would finally have her answer as to why Casca is so hostile to Guts. It is possible that they won't keep him held up on a pedestal if they do find out too, you know.

No, that's not what I said. Farnese and Schierke were warned by the Elf Queen that what they see in Casca's dreams may not be 100% true or accurate. I'm not saying that they will "look the other way and ignore it". I'm saying that Farnese and Schierke might not understand or believe what Casca is trying to tell them because they don't know what really happened. They have no reason to believe that Guts did anything bad to Casca. All they know is that Guts risked his life over and over to protect Casca.

Puck is the only person there who knows what Guts did to Casca but even he doesn't know about the worst incident (the sexual assault). I don't think we can just ignore and dismiss the significance of this. Casca might feel that nobody can understand what she has been through... which could push her over the edge. We know for a fact that Casca has struggled with depression and even tried to kill herself before. We can't just ignore all that.

The topic of this thread is "possible tragedy in Elfhelm" and I'm offering a what-if scenario about how it might happen.

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And the fact of the matter is that in that short time, their previous petty arguments no longer mattered. Guts and Casca were able to move past that and get along. Why can't you? And if you want to blame anyone for having things be cut short, then blame Guts. He's the one who left after all, even when Casca begged him not to go. Which, by the way, was a very hurtful thing of him to do to her, hence why she had such a strong emotional reaction once he came back one year later.

She attacked him with a deadly weapon and tried to kill him. That's not a normal "strong emotional reaction". That's basically all the evidence we need that Casca had mental problems even before she became insane.

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I can see there's no point in trying to change your mind since Casca's irredeemable to you. A few mean words to Guts are enough to place her over the edge

No, what makes her irredeemable is her violent, psychotic behavior in Volume 9. I'm not even sure if she really began to change for the better after that incident or if she was simply in a happy mood. She seems to have a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

I don't think that Guts needs a mentally ill girlfriend/comrade.

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That wasn't my point. My point was is that she's going to become lucid soon. She's going to be able to start thinking for herself again, taking care of herself, talk, fight, find meaning in her life, and bathe without splashing water everywhere again. To continue writing her off as irrelevant (which she never was in the first place) when her recovery is happening right now is stupid as hell.

Well at this point in the story she basically is irrelevant. Guts, Serpico, Azan, Silat, and the Tapasa are much better warriors than Casca, and there are probably other very skilled warriors in Silat's hometown. Casca's (human) strength and fighting skills are no longer as useful as they used to be in this new world where dangerous mythical beasts are running wild. To have her start learning magic now would be a pointless rehash of what Farnese is already doing.

Turning Casca into an apostle (causing the destruction of Elfhelm in the process) at least creates an interesting and dangerous enemy for Guts to fight, if not in Elfhelm then in the final battle before he faces Griffith. It creates a moral dilemma for Guts. Will he kill the woman he loves in order to fight Griffith? Is defeating Griffith that important to Guts that he will even take Casca's life in order to do so?

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What fan theory? I didn't put any theory in here whatsoever. I merely pointed out that Casca has a very unique and important connection with three extremely vital characters in the series. A connection that no one else in the series has, a connection that can't just be replaced by any female character as you seem to think, and a connection that would imply she has just as much importance as Guts, Griffith and the child.

It's precisely because Griffith is using the body of Casca's child as a vessel why there can be no happy ending for Guts and Casca. That was my point.

The Idea Of Evil planned it this way. Griffith (using the body of Casca's child as a vessel/hostage) has something very important that he can use against Guts even if all his other powers and abilities are severely weakened or disabled. It's not a fatal weakness. It's his trump card. The IOE is not stupid, it knows what it is doing. Even if the IOE is disabled and sealed away, even if causality is disrupted, Guts will have to confront Casca (and kill her) before he can kill Griffith.
Casca will never agree to do anything that might harm her child. Even if she now hates Griffith for what he did to her and to the old BOTH, you can never underestimate a mother's love for her child. This is why I believe that Casca will use that Beherit and will become an apostle. Casca will not allow Guts and his allies to injure or kill her child. In the end she has no choice. She can't stop Guts and his party just by using her normal human fighting skills.

As far back as Episode 92 the Skull Knight warned Guts that Casca's child "someday will bring woe upon you both". This is from the official English translation. So my theory is based on details from the manga as written by Miura unlike these very optimistic fan-theories that Guts, Casca, and their child will work together to defeat Griffith and then will live happily ever after.
In Episode 92 when Guts grabbed Casca's child and tried to kill it Casca fought tooth and nail to protect it. Do you think that scene was written for no reason? Do you really think that scene doesn't foreshadow anything?

And I don't understand why some fans believe that Casca has to cooperate with Guts once she is cured or that she owes him something. She doesn't owe him anything. After the Eclipse she didn't ask him to protect her or to bring her to Elfhelm. In fact since Episode 89 "Awakening to a Nightmare" she made it pretty clear that she wanted Guts to stay the hell away from her. She only began to feel safe and comfortable around Guts at the end of the Conviction story arc but that ended as soon as he physically and sexually assaulted her in Volume 23.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Arc on January 05, 2017, 11:40:50 PM
No, that's not what I said. Farnese and Schierke were warned by the Elf Queen that what they see in Casca's dreams may not be 100% true or accurate. I'm not saying that they will "look the other way and ignore it". I'm saying that Farnese and Schierke might not understand or believe what Casca is trying to tell them because they don't know what really happened. They have no reason to believe that Guts did anything bad to Casca. All they know is that Guts risked his life over and over to protect Casca.

We really have no idea what they will encounter in the corridor of dreams. Is it going to be a stroll through all her memories? Only a random few? Perhaps a select few pertaining to the most stressful portions of her life? Perhaps it will be more like a dream where many memories are warped into one. We have no idea what to expect- it seems likely it will be more of a rescue mission than a puzzle. I doubt Casca will be "trying to tell them" anything with her dreams and I'd be surprised if she even knew they were there until confronted.

If what the Elf King said is true Guts would make Casca more likely to run away or stir up the most vicious memories it only makes sense that the two women who have gotten the closest to her (and also happen to be magic users) be the next choices.


Well at this point in the story she basically is irrelevant.

I would argue she pretty much IS and has been the story for many volumes. The entire party was formed by guts exclusively so he could protect Casca- she is one of the few fires still burning inside guts. The story thus far has pointed out on multiple occasions that her light outshines Guts desire for revenge and is basically the only thing keeping the beast in check.

The Idea Of Evil planned it this way. Griffith (using the body of Casca's child as a vessel/hostage) has something very important that he can use against Guts even if all his other powers and abilities are severely weakened or disabled. It's not a fatal weakness. It's his trump card. The IOE is not stupid, it knows what it is doing. Even if the IOE is disabled and sealed away, even if causality is disrupted, Guts will have to confront Casca (and kill her) before he can kill Griffith.
Casca will never agree to do anything that might harm her child. Even if she now hates Griffith for what he did to her and to the old BOTH, you can never underestimate a mother's love for her child. This is why I believe that Casca will use that Beherit and will become an apostle. Casca will not allow Guts and his allies to injure or kill her child. In the end she has no choice. She can't stop Guts and his party just by using her normal human fighting skills.

A wise french moderator once told me "you really shouldn't extrapolate so much" and I think that is an important lesson for you to learn here.

Firstly, we haven't even met the "new" Casca yet, we can make almost zero assumptions about what she will be like after. In her current "regressed" state she seems to function on mostly instinct. Her physical abilities have stayed with her (complex jumps down the rocks during the conviction arc, killing the mercs that tried to molest her, etc). I would further argue that she is once again acting on instinct when she is feeding moonlight boy by repeating what Farnese had done for her. I think it is obvious that protecting her child also falls under maternal instinct.

Secondly, Femto's incarnation in the body of Casca/Guts child has already proven to be a double edged sword. The encounter on the hill of swords shows that Griffith retained some sort of instinct to protect Casca after the incarnation. There is a lot of speculation that could be made around that event in particular- and if your theory comes to pass and Guts is forced into attacking Casca what happens then? Does Griffith once again protect her? Kinda seems like it goes both ways doesn't it?

Lastly, once Casca does regain her mind who is to say her stance won't change about her child. It obviously no longer resembles the child it was and likely a rational person could come to terms with what has happened. I would imagine at the very least she develop some disdain towards Femto/Griffith.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 07, 2017, 08:57:24 AM
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I would argue she pretty much IS and has been the story for many volumes. The entire party was formed by guts exclusively so he could protect Casca- she is one of the few fires still burning inside guts. The story thus far has pointed out on multiple occasions that her light outshines Guts desire for revenge and is basically the only thing keeping the beast in check.

Yes, Guts protected Casca and put his quest for revenge on hold. However almost everything Guts did so far helped Griffith and paved the way for a hypothetical attack on Elfhelm. The only exception to this is the battle in Enoch Village. I doubt that it helped Griffith / the Godhand / the IOE in any way since it taught the people in that community a valuable lesson, that their God will not protect them or save them but the old, forgotten spirits of the land and the 4 Elemental Kings will.

Don't forget that Guts and his party literally saved the lives of all the noblemen in Vritannis, defeated most of the Kushan enchanted beasts, and ended up saving Zodd's life. Zodd and his goons would have been annihilated by Ganishka if Guts and Schierke weren't there. Even when Guts defeated the Sea God he unintentionally helped Griffith. Now there is one less enemy in the way if Griffith decides to invade Elfhelm. And we can't just ignore the fact that the Elfhelm mages were very worried when they saw Guts' Beherit.

This is why I believe that Guts has unfortunately become Griffith's / IOE's "useful idiot". He sincerely believes that he is protecting and helping the woman he loves... but in reality he is only helping his hated enemy. It's actually really sad and tragic.

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Secondly, Femto's incarnation in the body of Casca/Guts child has already proven to be a double edged sword. The encounter on the hill of swords shows that Griffith retained some sort of instinct to protect Casca after the incarnation. There is a lot of speculation that could be made around that event in particular- and if your theory comes to pass and Guts is forced into attacking Casca what happens then? Does Griffith once again protect her? Kinda seems like it goes both ways doesn't it?

It does go both ways but does it really make a difference if Griffith dies first or if Casca dies first in the final battle?

Let's say that Griffith (and the child) die first. At that point Casca has no reason to continue living and if she's now an apostle Guts still has to kill her. There's no way to pacify her and change her back into a normal human. As far as we know when a human become an apostle it's an irreversible one-way process. If it can be reversed it should certainly require divine intervention from a god that's at least as powerful as the IOE, and nothing in the story so far even hints at the existence of such god. I certainly hope that no such god is introduced into the story now because that would only create massive plot holes. The Idea Of Evil has existed for a very long time, probably since stone age. The Skull Knight fought against the Godhand for at least 1000 years. If there is an "Idea Of Good" or some other good god who can oppose the IOE where was it all this time? I'm confident that Miura will not use such a lame plot twist to defeat Griffith / the Godhand / the IOE.

So even if Casca can somehow be saved in the end, she will never forgive Guts for killing her child. It's still a tragic ending. So what would be a happy ending? If Guts survives, and doesn't become Skull Knight 2.0, and with the help of his friends overcomes his inner demons in the end, that's a happy ending.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Vixen Comics on January 08, 2017, 03:26:02 AM
The Awful Truth I don't think anything can be said to change your mind that Casca is destined to betray Guts since you seem to be very biased against her. I do believe she will not be turned into an apostle though. If anything that stupid is ever done to her I will drop the manga quick. But I honestly don't think Miura is planning to have Casca turn into an apostle and stab Guts in the back. My biggest hope is that when Casca  comes back that she will will be vindicated and fans like you will stop speculating that she will turn traitor.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Arc on January 08, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Don't forget that Guts and his party literally saved the lives of all the noblemen in Vritannis, defeated most of the Kushan enchanted beasts, and ended up saving Zodd's life. Zodd and his goons would have been annihilated by Ganishka if Guts and Schierke weren't there. Even when Guts defeated the Sea God he unintentionally helped Griffith. Now there is one less enemy in the way if Griffith decides to invade Elfhelm. And we can't just ignore the fact that the Elfhelm mages were very worried when they saw Guts' Beherit.

I really don't think ganishka would be a problem for Griffith even if he lost some of his demon army in the holy city. Nor am I sure we can assume that Zodd would have died without Guts intervention- I mean the guy has survived centuries of battle and I don't think Griffith would let his top lieutenant die so easily.

Guys has always struggled against whatever opponent is infront of him and i think the Sea God was another way to show that he has become capable of things that no average human could even dream of. While you could argue this made things easier for Griffith I really don't think it would have been hard for Griffith to deal with the Sea God- I mean just look at the final battle with Ganishka, he didn't even break a sweat against the most powerful apostle. Look at 303:12, tell me Femto is having a hard time.

I won't argue that the beherit doesn't seem like a good ticket for the godhand into elfhiem but I think any magic user who knows what a beherit is would be wise to be very worried when they see one. They don't exactly ever lead to good results.

This is why I believe that Guts has unfortunately become Griffith's / IOE's "useful idiot". He sincerely believes that he is protecting and helping the woman he loves... but in reality he is only helping his hated enemy. It's actually really sad and tragic.

While some of the things hes done have certainly helped pave the way for the neo band of the hawk he as also slowed them down a fair amount. Even if you don't count his apostle hunting days he still has a fairly solid list of set backs for Griffiths plans.

I'm sure there are more but those are just easy ones off the top of my head.

Let's say that Griffith (and the child) die first. At that point Casca has no reason to continue living and if she's now an apostle Guts still has to kill her.

What? How can you be so sure that after her mind is healed her child is the only thing shes going to care about? No reason for living?? Come on man she WAS in love with guts, she DID have a great feeling of responsibility for the band of the hawk, surely she will be livid once she comes to see the truth. I think you are way to set on Casca ONLY caring about her child- she is not such a one dimensional character.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 09, 2017, 12:32:57 AM
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Posted by: Vixen Comics
« on: Today at 03:26:02 AM »

The Awful Truth I don't think anything can be said to change your mind that Casca is destined to betray Guts since you seem to be very biased against her. I do believe she will not be turned into an apostle though. If anything that stupid is ever done to her I will drop the manga quick. But I honestly don't think Miura is planning to have Casca turn into an apostle and stab Guts in the back. My biggest hope is that when Casca  comes back that she will will be vindicated and fans like you will stop speculating that she will turn traitor.

She can't "betray" Guts, because she doesn't owe him anything. Guts left the Band Of The Hawk then returned 1 year later and helped them to rescue Griffith, and... it was all for nothing because Griffith betrayed all of them. The old BOTH doesn't exist anymore. After the Eclipse Casca never asked Guts to protect her or to do anything for her. I never liked Casca as a character but I will not deny that she has the right to live her life the way she wants and to pursue her own dreams. And Guts was already warned that Casca will not want what he wants.

Is it "stupid" for Casca to do whatever it takes to protect her child? Not at all. That's what any mother would do. And we already saw in Episode 92 that Casca will not allow Guts to hurt her child.

What will make me dislike Casca even more is if she becomes Guts' most loyal comrade just because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", or even worse a damsel in distress who desperately needs Guts to keep protecting her in this dangerous new world. To me, that would absolutely ruin Casca as a character. She was always portrayed as a strong, independent woman. (I know that she was obsessed with Griffith but look at the big picture). Casca was an anomaly, a type of woman who just didn't exist in real-life medieval world. And she wasn't even a magic user. Casca accomplished everything "the Bakiraka way" by relying on her own body and mind. That's probably why so many fans like her. But if you liked Casca because she was a strong, independent woman then don't complain when the new Casca does something that Guts (and the fans) don't want to happen. I know that turning her into an apostle will mean that she is now dependent on a magical power but there's absolutely no other way for Casca to try to stop Guts from killing Griffith. What is she supposed to do? Beg Guts to forget about Griffith and move on because Griffith is now using the body of their kid as a vessel/hostage. That would be a very anticlimactic ending. I do expect Casca to talk to Guts about this when she gets her sanity back. But I definitely don't expect Guts to completely abandon his quest for revenge just because of their child.

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Posted by: Arc
« on: Today at 05:13:11 PM »

What? How can you be so sure that after her mind is healed her child is the only thing shes going to care about? No reason for living?? Come on man she WAS in love with guts, she DID have a great feeling of responsibility for the band of the hawk, surely she will be livid once she comes to see the truth. I think you are way to set on Casca ONLY caring about her child- she is not such a one dimensional character.

She was in love (or maybe just in a good mood) with Guts before Guts physically and sexually assaulted her. I do expect Casca to be very angry about what happened to the old BOTH, but I also believe that she will not want to do anything anymore with Griffith and Guts. We really can't deny that both Griffith and Guts hurt and disappointed Casca very much.

Right now her child is the only thing she has left. It is much more important than her friendship with Farnese. Yes, it is her only reason to keep on living. I believe that Casca would have killed herself a long time ago (definitely after Guts sexually assaulted her) if it wasn't for her memories of her child. The power of a mother's love is a huge theme in fiction and in real life. I don't expect Casca to turn into a stereotypical, overprotective Japanese mother but I do believe that we will soon see a side of Casca that we never saw before. It was already hinted at in Episode 92 and in every Episode where her child appeared.

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Nor am I sure we can assume that Zodd would have died without Guts intervention- I mean the guy has survived centuries of battle and I don't think Griffith would let his top lieutenant die so easily.

Zodd was helpless against Ganishka, and the Godhand said it themselves that they don't care if some apostles get killed. The apostles are just expendable servants to them.

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I really don't think ganishka would be a problem for Griffith even if he lost some of his demon army in the holy city.
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While you could argue this made things easier for Griffith I really don't think it would have been hard for Griffith to deal with the Sea God

Yes of course Griffith could have easily killed Ganishka and the Sea God anytime. But this is not about Griffith. The Idea Of Evil is the ultimate villain of Berserk.

The IOE arranged everything so that Guts would end up bringing that Beherit to Elfhelm:

1. Guts' and Casca's survival during the Eclipse. Let's be realistic. Guts and Casca were in big trouble before the Skull Knight showed up and would have been killed... but it wasn't yet their time to die. Something made the apostles hold back. I used to think that it was Griffith's will that kept them alive but that doesn't really make sense. Griffith could have immediately killed them both after he was done humiliating Guts (after the rape scene with Casca). But he didn't. He held back.

2. The fact that Griffith didn't kill Guts when they met in the astral world during the Black Swordsman story arc.

3. The fact that Guts didn't meet an apostle that he couldn't defeat (i.e. someone like Grunbeld) during the Black Swordsman story arc.

4. The fact that Guts and Casca survived the Conviction story arc (mostly) unharmed. Let's face it, they had amazing plot armor to survive that night in Albion which was basically an Eclipse 2.0

5. The destruction of Godo's elf cave, which is what caused the journey to Elfhelm in the first place.

6. The battle in Vritannis and the battle with the Sea God being conveniently on the way to Elfhelm. Even if Griffith could have done it himself it was much more convenient that Guts did it. Think about it. How exactly would Griffith save all those noblemen from the Kushan enchanted tigers if Guts wasn't there? Send Zodd to that party? That would immediately cause suspicion because Zodd even in his human form looks like a monster. Locus fights on horseback and Irvine is an archer. None of them would be suitable for that particular battle. I suppose that Griffith could have walked in and did it himself but he didn't have time for it. He was in command of an entire army, he couldn't waste time on just one small part of a much bigger battle. Sure Griffith could have defeated the Sea God on his own but why bother? Guts was already there, and he had to kill the Sea God because it was a dangerous obstacle on the way to Elfhelm.

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While some of the things hes done have certainly helped pave the way for the neo band of the hawk he as also slowed them down a fair amount. Even if you don't count his apostle hunting days he still has a fairly solid list of set backs for Griffiths plans.
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    Slowed Flora's death and got some good apostle hunting items to help him and his party out. Also saved Schierke (+1 magic user) from death at the hands of the apostles

Guts didn't do anything to "slow" Flora's death, and Flora was ready and willing to die at that point in the story. Even if Guts wasn't there the Skull Knight would have definitely saved Schierke's life and brought her safely to Elfhelm.

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Closed the Quilpoth reducing the quantity of Slan's beasties

Which made no difference in the long run. We saw what happened when the worlds merged. Mythical beasts began appearing and attacking all over the world making the crisis in Enoch Village look like child's play.

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Supplied SK with a few more beherits for his scary sword

The Skull Knight is perfectly capable of killing apostles on his own, it's not like he needed Guts' help to gather those Beherits. And we already saw that the Skull Knight is not able to hurt or kill Griffith... because the IOE won't let him. That's the only logical explanation why Griffith survived the Skull Knight's attack completely unharmed.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Walter on January 09, 2017, 08:20:28 PM
What a mess this thread has become... Who do you expect to read all of these unrelated things? Guts saving the noblemen? The Sea God an impediment to Griffith? Please try to keep it on topic in the future.

I almost admire your tenacity in clinging to an unpopular notion that in just a few weeks will be put to the ultimate test. But it seems to me that you're at the extreme end of the possibility space for Casca's future. Of all the possible vectors for her next steps, you're erring on the side of "Fuck Casca, she always sucked anyway," which I think could be clouding your judgment on the actualities.

She can't "betray" Guts, because she doesn't owe him anything.

Being in a relationship isn't about "owing" people.

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After the Eclipse Casca never asked Guts to protect her or to do anything for her.  I never liked Casca as a character but I will not deny that she has the right to live her life the way she wants and to pursue her own dreams.

I guess we should do a recap? First, Guts didn't rescue Casca from the Eclipse. That was the Skull Knight. Casca couldn't verbalize anything, because she was a shell of her former self. Guts left her in the only safe place he knew of (not arguing he didn't do so also out of selfishness and negligence, but that's not on the table right now). After that, she escaped, and Guts successfully reclaimed her, returning her back to that same safe place. That safe place was destroyed, so he went on to find another haven for her. When was he was supposed to recognize her internal pain and kill her in her sleep?

As for her right to live how she wants, she hasn't had a chance to choose that yet. Her current state of mind wasn't a choice she made. It was thrust upon her.

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But if you liked Casca because she was a strong, independent woman then don't complain when the new Casca does something that Guts (and the fans) don't want to happen.

But you're the one complaining about something that hasn't happened yet (not to mention complaining about the character herself).

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Right now her child is the only thing she has left. It is much more important than her friendship with Farnese. Yes, it is her only reason to keep on living.

Then why would Farnese be considered a valid sacrifice for Casca? Do you think she might be able to pull a fast one on the God Hand and hide her son's existence from them?

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She was in love (or maybe just in a good mood) with Guts before Guts physically and sexually assaulted her. I do expect Casca to be very angry about what happened to the old BOTH, but I also believe that she will not want to do anything anymore with Griffith and Guts. We really can't deny that both Griffith and Guts hurt and disappointed Casca very much.

Unlike the manga's medium, this issue is not black and white. Certainly, she and Guts will have to reconcile. But there's no denying that Guts has undertaken considerable pains to keep her alive for the past 2 years. And yes, it's inconclusive whether she'll be thankful of that or not in the short term, but his efforts and intentions aren't likely to be diminished. I find it hard to believe that once duly informed of everything Guts has endured (and how he has grown as a result) that Casca would cast aside everything that Guts is for his one moment of weakness. It doesn't speak very highly of your opinion of Guts, or Casca, for that matter.

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4. The fact that Guts and Casca survived the Conviction story arc (mostly) unharmed. Let's face it, they had amazing plot armor to survive that night in Albion which was basically an Eclipse 2.0

Actually, Casca was supposed to die in Albion, but that eventuality was subverted by Isidro's actions. It was another "junction of time," where there was a small hole in Causality's plans. That's what the whole "jumping fish" analogy was aimed at, and why it was reiterated during that moment.

Not sure why there's a whole section on the Idea of Evil here....

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Don't forget that Guts and his party literally saved the lives of all the noblemen in Vritannis
...
How exactly would Griffith save all those noblemen from the Kushan enchanted tigers if Guts wasn't there?

Griffith didn't need the noblemen. They were worthless for his regime. Their survival was an unnecessary bonus.

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Even when Guts defeated the Sea God he unintentionally helped Griffith. Now there is one less enemy in the way if Griffith decides to invade Elfhelm.

The Sea God was never a threat to Griffith or the Idea of Evil's plans. It was one (of thousands) of supernatural threats out there now that the worlds have merged. You're folding it into your agenda here because you've apparently decided to create a bulleted list of every encounter in the series.

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Guts was already there, and he had to kill the Sea God because it was a dangerous obstacle on the way to Elfhelm.

Sheesh, if that's how you feel about the series, why not just check in after it's done and skip to the last episode? Afterall, everything else HAD to be killed because they were dangerous obstacles to the story's conclusion.

Closed the Quilpoth reducing the quantity of Slan's beasties

Misunderstanding. Slan's domain isn't Qliphoth, nor are those creatures under her dominion. She was able to manifest there and manipulate the region because of their shared affinity with darkness. As for Slan's actual domain, we've seen a glimpse of it, and it's not Qliphoth.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 10, 2017, 07:15:43 AM
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Being in a relationship isn't about "owing" people.

Their "relationship" ended when Guts attacked her. My point is that Casca has no obligation to be Guts' comrade again just because they used to be comrades in the Golden Age. Some fans seem to believe that just because Guts keeps protecting Casca she must be grateful to him once she is cured. Even if they don't say "Casca must forgive Guts and become his most loyal comrade again" that's what they seem to be implying. Even worse, some fans are saying that they will abandon Berserk if Casca doesn't forgive Guts and become his comrade again.

I do not understand this mentality. I know why people liked Golden Age Casca. But if you liked her because she was a strong woman back then, why do you keep insisting that she must forgive Guts and be his comrade now? This is the best way I can explain it. If the new, sane Casca is still a strong, independent woman (like Golden Age Casca used to be), then why is it so unacceptable if Casca leaves Guts' party and pursues her own dreams? Why is it unacceptable if Casca puts her child above all else? Why is it unacceptable if Casca gives literally everything (including her humanity and her life) to protect her child? Why would a plot twist like that "ruin" Berserk?

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Then why would Farnese be considered a valid sacrifice for Casca? Do you think she might be able to pull a fast one on the God Hand and hide her son's existence from them?

I really don't want to get into what is or isn't a "valid sacrifice" because the story itself hasn't been 100% consistent about this. Technically only Guts should have qualified as a valid sacrifice for Griffith during the Eclipse. Griffith didn't consider the Band Of The Hawk to be his "friends" and they certainly weren't his "loved ones". But everyone in the old BOTH qualified as sacrifices anyway. Then we have the Egg apostle who had no friends or loved ones to sacrifice, but he was allowed to become an apostle anyway.

How can Farnese qualify as a sacrifice if she isn't as important to Casca as Casca's child? Because if something is necessary to advance the plot, it will happen... even if it isn't 100% logical. That's the most simple explanation. The complicated, in-universe explanation is this: the Idea Of Evil is a god and the Godhand are its servants. A god doesn't have to obey any rules, not even its own rules. The IOE exists to give humans reasons for pain and suffering. And we all know that if Casca becomes an apostle (and forces Guts to kill her before he can kill Griffith), well Guts will certainly be in a lot of pain and he will certainly suffer after that ordeal.

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I find it hard to believe that once duly informed of everything Guts has endured (and how he has grown as a result) that Casca would cast aside everything that Guts is for his one moment of weakness. It doesn't speak very highly of your opinion of Guts, or Casca, for that matter.

I'm certainly not denying that Guts did a lot of good things for Casca. But it was stated in Episode 92 that their child will be the cause of some tragic event for both of them. I do not know what the original Japanese text says but I have no reason to doubt the official English translation of the manga.

The theory that I posted here is, in my opinion, the most logical tragic event/outcome that the Skull Knight was talking about. Of course my theory is the worst possible thing that can happen to Guts and Casca. Of course it's possible that Casca will not use that Beherit, that she will become Guts' comrade again, and that in the end she will break up with Guts once and for all after he kills Griffith (and their child). However a "sad-but-not-really-tragic" ending like that will be very underwhelming, in fact it will be pointless.

Can you please explain why Farnese and Schierke were written, and are still being written, as Guts' new best female friends if Casca will forgive Guts and will become his loyal comrade again? What was the point? You know, Schierke didn't have to develop any feelings for Guts. She is a kid. She could have been written as just a nice and helpful comrade. The situation with Farnese is even more illogical if it's going to lead to absolutely nothing.

Perhaps I should have said this earlier. Even if Farnese is sacrificed it doesn't necessarily mean that she will be killed off right then and there. She can get branded and survive due to plot armor. As long as Farnese wears her silver chainmail the evil spirits (from the Vortex of Souls) can't touch her... and there aren't any apostles in Elfhelm... and I doubt that Casca (even as an apostle) will be willing to eat Farnese. Did you consider the possibility that this is why "nice" apostles like Locus, Irvine, and Grunbeld were introduced into the story. (I know they are evil, I only call them "nice" because they don't seem to have any interest in eating human flesh). Remember how in the Black Swordsman story arc and in the Golden Age story arc all apostles (except Zodd) were portrayed as sadistic, flesh-eating monsters. Do you believe that Miura introduced these "nice", more nuanced apostles later for absolutely no reason at all? Or was it to lay the foundation for what Casca might become in Elfhelm? I.e. she will become a monster but she will be an honorable monster. We do know for a fact that just offering a best friend or a loved one as a sacrifice is enough, the person who is sacrificed doesn't actually have to die.

Of course you can always dismiss Schierke's feelings for Guts as just a little girl's first crush. But it's impossible to ignore and dismiss what is now happening with Farnese. She is falling in love with Guts. She is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. She doesn't seem to understand that Guts isn't ready to leave Casca and begin a new relationship. But if the worst possible scenario does happen, if Casca becomes an apostle and leaves Guts once and for all (I don't believe that Guts will kill her in Elfhelm), then Farnese is probably the most qualified (woman) to step in and offer emotional support to Guts (who will be absolutely devastated).

I know why many fans (not necessarily here but on reddit, youtube, 4chan, and other websites) hate this idea. They really want Golden Age Casca back and they want Guts and Casca to become lovers again. But this is not where the story seems to be going.

Farnese experienced more character development than probably anyone else in the story. I don't believe that it was done just to turn Farnese into Casca's nurse/babysitter (and later into an extra magic user in Guts' party)... because that would be stupid quite frankly. There are plenty of magic users in Elfhelm who might join Guts' party. I don't believe that Farnese is now falling in love with Guts only to be forced to accept later that Guts will never have any interest in her... because that wouldn't be fair to her at all.
We are talking about how Casca might become a different person once she is cured, but Farnese is already a different person. Farnese is already a much better person than she used to be and she treats Guts much better than Casca ever did.

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Actually, Casca was supposed to die in Albion

I will have to strongly disagree with you about this. If that happened, Guts would have no reason to travel to Elfhelm (and I'm assuming that the IOE planned for Guts to bring that Beherit to Elfhelm, which will lead to the destruction of Elfhelm). And it simply makes no sense whatsoever for Casca to die in Albion. It just doesn't work with what was already foreshadowed in Episode 92. It would make the final battle with Griffith much less interesting. I have no doubt that Guts will kill Casca's child if that's the only way to kill Griffith. There's no drama in a final battle like that. Miura is a much better writer than that.
But if Guts is forced to fight (and kill) Casca before he can fight Griffith... that sets up probably the most interesting, difficult, and tragic battle that Guts will ever have. It's the perfect final battle for Berserk.

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Griffith didn't need the noblemen. They were worthless for his regime. Their survival was an unnecessary bonus.

That's like saying that Griffith doesn't need Princess Charlotte and the Pope. Even if he doesn't really need them, their survival still helps him. It's a story that takes place in the Middle Ages. Anyone who can manipulate and command the nobles, the Pope, and the last surviving member of Midland's royal family would have tremendous respect of the masses of ordinary people. And you seem to be forgetting that although Griffith is a military genius he is not a professional politician and probably has no interest in day-to-day politics. He does need the noblemen, the Princess, and the Church to help him govern Falconia.

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The Sea God was never a threat to Griffith or the Idea of Evil's plans. It was one (of thousands) of supernatural threats out there now that the worlds have merged.

Well right now their plan seems to be "we need to gather all the remaining humans in Falconia". The Sea God wouldn't have stopped its rampage after eating everyone on Isma's island. It could have easily threatened every town and city anywhere near a coastline and that means less human survivors/refugees in Falconia. We have already seen that Griffith ordered his army to rescue convoys of refugees from trolls and other mythical beasts. The Sea God was certainly a much bigger threat than a pack of trolls or ogres.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Sancho on January 10, 2017, 09:33:50 AM
Their "relationship" ended when Guts attacked her. My point is that Casca has no obligation to be Guts' comrade again just because they used to be comrades in the Golden Age. Some fans seem to believe that just because Guts keeps protecting Casca she must be grateful to him once she is cured. Even if they don't say "Casca must forgive Guts and become his most loyal comrade again" that's what they seem to be implying. Even worse, some fans are saying that they will abandon Berserk if Casca doesn't forgive Guts and become his comrade again.

I do not understand this mentality. I know why people liked Golden Age Casca. But if you liked her because she was a strong woman back then, why do you keep insisting that she must forgive Guts and be his comrade now? This is the best way I can explain it. If the new, sane Casca is still a strong, independent woman (like Golden Age Casca used to be), then why is it so unacceptable if Casca leaves Guts' party and pursues her own dreams? Why is it unacceptable if Casca puts her child above all else? Why is it unacceptable if Casca gives literally everything (including her humanity and her life) to protect her child? Why would a plot twist like that "ruin" Berserk?

I read this idea that Casca will not forgive Guts for having attacked her very often on forums. But the thing is, Guts has been through an inconceivable series of tragic and traumatic events that would have broken anyone, and Casca knows well those events because she was part of it. I don't think she has any reason to not forgive him given the circumstances, unless she is just a cold hearted spoiled girl, which, from what we saw in the Golden Age arc, she isn't.

I agree that the child will be cause of a disagreement between them, and also that Casca's main focus will be to save her child, but that doesn't mean Guts won't choose to postpone/abandon his quest for revenge to follow Casca and protect her, and that she would reject both him and her new friends, especially if you think that Guts has promised to never lose her again, that powerful scene in the cave in volume 17 would mean nothing if that happened.


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I'm certainly not denying that Guts did a lot of good things for Casca. But it was stated in Episode 92 that their child will be the cause of some tragic event for both of them. I do not know what the original Japanese text says but I have no reason to doubt the official English translation of the manga.

In Episode 92 the child was still a demon, and SK said that, as such, he would bring woe upon them. But now he's no longer such a thing, his nature has not been clarified yet, but he's no longer a demon, because Guts and Casca's brands don't bleed whenever he appears.


To stay on topic, i agree that the future of Skellig is uncertain, especially considering the possibility that the giant cherry tree could be one of the spiritual trees that roots on the World Tree, and also considering the potential danger that the magician elders and the elves could represent for the God Hand plan. But i don't think the Beherit will be activated now, it is a key element for the plot and Guts's travels, and i think it's still too soon to play its role, which it is more likely to happen near end of manga.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 10, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
Considering every thing that happened to Casca starting from the eclipse, I'd doubt it very much that she would become an apostle just to protect her child. I'd find it very bad writing if that would be the case.

I'm pretty sure there will be some kind of conflict concerning the child but to turn into an apostle?

As for Farnese and her emotions towards Guts, well you said it yourself; it's unfair indeed if Guts does not return her love, but hey life isn't fair as we've seen a lot of times in Berserk. Best example I have is Judeau, he was in love with Casca. Did it work out for him? No.

Miura is better than that. The Island doesn't need to have total destruction, the team already have an incentive to not stay too long on the island so I don't see why it needs to be destroyed or something.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Walter on January 10, 2017, 04:58:43 PM
Their "relationship" ended when Guts attacked her.

Why..? I look at that unfortunate incident and see a large barrier to be overcome by them both, not a smoking gun. I suppose that's because we each want different things out of these characters?

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My point is that Casca has no obligation to be Guts' comrade again just because they used to be comrades in the Golden Age.

I think you're approaching the entire character dynamic from an illogical place — the presupposition that it won't work out because of reasons. And do I really need to remind you that Guts and Casca were more than comrades? Their previous relationship will be addressed. And no, they aren't married, or have some contractual obligation to each other. Again, that's not how relationships work.

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Some fans seem to believe that just because Guts keeps protecting Casca she must be grateful to him once she is cured. Even if they don't say "Casca must forgive Guts and become his most loyal comrade again" that's what they seem to be implying. Even worse, some fans are saying that they will abandon Berserk if Casca doesn't forgive Guts and become his comrade again.

Why not engage with the words that I wrote instead of creating scapegoats to ridicule? Just because it's The Internet doesn't mean that people's opinions on matters must be black or white. I saw one person in the thread say that if Casca becomes an apostle, it would be something worth dropping the series for. That's not quite the same as what you're outlining above. So maybe chill a bit on the hyperbole?

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I do not understand this mentality. I know why people liked Golden Age Casca. But if you liked her because she was a strong woman back then, why do you keep insisting that she must forgive Guts and be his comrade now?

It's not a matter of MUST, it's just the most likely outcome based on their character history and the challenges and dynamics ahead of them. For them to face the end together, as comrades again, reunited against the source of the tragedies they each faced, makes for a more coherent story to me than what you seem to be proposing, which I gahter is an angst-filled Casca going lone wolf against Griffith, with Guts following closely behind her? That just sounds pretty shitty man. It doesn't sound like something Miura would pull on us.

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If the new, sane Casca is still a strong, independent woman (like Golden Age Casca used to be), then why is it so unacceptable if Casca leaves Guts' party and pursues her own dreams?

Because it doesn't resonate with the rest of the story.

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Why is it unacceptable if Casca puts her child above all else? Why is it unacceptable if Casca gives literally everything (including her humanity and her life) to protect her child?[/b] Why would a plot twist like that "ruin" Berserk?

Well, that's stupid for a variety of reasons. Namely that apostles physically can't stand against the God Hand, as we've seen.

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I really don't want to get into what is or isn't a "valid sacrifice" because the story itself hasn't been 100% consistent about this.

It's been consistent enough.

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Technically only Guts should have qualified as a valid sacrifice for Griffith during the Eclipse. Griffith didn't consider the Band Of The Hawk to be his "friends" and they certainly weren't his "loved ones".

Semantics. The rules were that he had to give up something so important to him that "shedding it would be like giving up a part of yourself." The Falcons qualify for that. Also, they were all gathered. 

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Then we have the Egg apostle who had no friends or loved ones to sacrifice, but he was allowed to become an apostle anyway.

As one who had nothing, he sacrificed everything that he had, which was himself, and the world around him. It makes some twisted sense, but is certainly the outlier, as is the ceremony that took place.

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How can Farnese qualify as a sacrifice if she isn't as important to Casca as Casca's child? Because if something is necessary to advance the plot, it will happen...

So it wouldn't make sense. Why not just admit that and move on?

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I'm certainly not denying that Guts did a lot of good things for Casca. But it was stated in Episode 92 that their child will be the cause of some tragic event for both of them. I do not know what the original Japanese text says but I have no reason to doubt the official English translation of the manga.

Skull Knight was right that the child's twisted existence brought them some amount of grief (it can't live as their son, which tortures Casca). However, it wasnt a prophecy, it turned out to be a bad judment call, because SK didn't know the full scope. He also didn't know the nature of the boy. He assumed that because of its form, that it had chosen an evil existence. In fact, the child had that evil form forced upon him, and he has acted against that nature in every action we've seen him take — protecting his parents against all odds, extinguishing his life to keep Casca safe.

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The theory that I posted here is, in my opinion, the most logical tragic event/outcome that the Skull Knight was talking about. Of course my theory is the worst possible thing that can happen to Guts and Casca. Of course it's possible that Casca will not use that Beherit, that she will become Guts' comrade again, and that in the end she will break up with Guts once and for all after he kills Griffith (and their child). However a "sad-but-not-really-tragic" ending like that will be very underwhelming, in fact it will be pointless.

Well, you're hinging your entire ending theory on a prophecy that wasn't a prophecy. It's no wonder you couldn't make sense of the ending you're fabricating.

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Can you please explain why Farnese and Schierke were written, and are still being written, as Guts' new best female friends if Casca will forgive Guts and will become his loyal comrade again? What was the point? You know, Schierke didn't have to develop any feelings for Guts. She is a kid. She could have been written as just a nice and helpful comrade. The situation with Farnese is even more illogical if it's going to lead to absolutely nothing.

Guts is a charismatic guy, and he has a special relationship with an impressionable young woman. Miura addresses it pretty naturally. Schierke has since resolved her feelings with Guts. Farnese is a different case. She's fallen (or thinks she has fallen) for her messiah, and she will have to reconcile that with the actual feelings of the woman she's in charge of protecting. In each case, their relationship with Guts addresses their maturity and growth as individuals.

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Perhaps I should have said this earlier. Even if Farnese is sacrificed it doesn't necessarily mean that she will be killed off right then and there. She can get branded and survive due to plot armor.

Could you please cut it out with this reductive shit? It has no place in Berserk. Use those tropes on series that take actual plot shortcuts.

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We are talking about how Casca might become a different person once she is cured, but Farnese is already a different person. Farnese is already a much better person than she used to be and she treats Guts much better than Casca ever did.


You're getting ahead of yourself. Farnese still has many growth opportunties. She's immature, and she's only just beginning to develop the confidence in herself enough to be assertive.

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I will have to strongly disagree with you about this. If that happened, Guts would have no reason to travel to Elfhelm (and I'm assuming that the IOE planned for Guts to bring that Beherit to Elfhelm, which will lead to the destruction of Elfhelm).

You've assigned rules and notions to things that haven't even been borne out yet, and calling them conflicts. Just because something conflicts with your fabricated perceptions of events doesn't mean that it's impossible. We don't know the IoE's intentions with the Beherit.

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And it simply makes no sense whatsoever for Casca to die in Albion. It just doesn't work with what was already foreshadowed in Episode 92.

You're discarding an ACTUAL prophecy (Casca dying at the stake), with a NON prophecy (Skull Knight's words about the child).

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I have no doubt that Guts will kill Casca's child if that's the only way to kill Griffith.

Err, don't you mean their child? I think you are fundamentally discrediting Guts as a human being.

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But if Guts is forced to fight (and kill) Casca before he can fight Griffith... that sets up probably the most interesting, difficult, and tragic battle that Guts will ever have. It's the perfect final battle for Berserk.

Would you care to place a bet on this possibility?

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That's like saying that Griffith doesn't need Princess Charlotte and the Pope. Even if he doesn't really need them, their survival still helps him. It's a story that takes place in the Middle Ages.

Berserk doesn't take place in the middle ages. Unless you agree with this parodic depiction World War II. (http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF209-Now_Showing.jpg)

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He does need the noblemen, the Princess, and the Church to help him govern Falconia.

Actually the pontiff and Charlotte serve roles in legitimizing Griffith's reign. The nobles however have no valuable role. They are the chaff of the old ruling class, which Griffith has already expressed he has no interest in. Owen and Raban rose up in Falconia because they clearly were useful, resourceful individuals. But do you really think ol' squiddo has a prominent role in Falconia just because he was a noble? Not sure you were taking notes when Griffith was describing the kind of kingdom he wanted.

Anyway, even if the nobles who survived in Vritannis aren't necessarily valuable to Griffith, they served a valuable narrative purpose: an audience initially skeptical of Griffith's reapperance, and to address (and for Charlotte to rule out) the rumor of his treason. It was the inevitable challenge to Griffith's intent to rule, and it was struck down in magnificent fashion with the apperance of not only the pontiff, but princess Charlotte herself.

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Well right now their plan seems to be "we need to gather all the remaining humans in Falconia".

Not all humans. Only those who were chosen:

Quote from: Episode 334
Erica: Rumor had it that there's a hero called the Falcon who protects humans from monsters. We were dubious of it. But one day all the children in the village had the same dream, showing the Falcon of Light flying toward the royal city.
Erica: This made us all decide to leave the village.

Luca: Did you also see it?
Erica: Yes!

Erica: It was quite a strange dream.
Erica: I felt like the Falcon was leading me...
Erica: And we all remembered it clearly even after we woke up.

Luca: It's the same for all refugees in this royal city, they all reached it after a hard trip
Luca: And were led here by the Falcon of Light.

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The Sea God wouldn't have stopped its rampage after eating everyone on Isma's island. It could have easily threatened every town and city anywhere near a coastline and that means less human survivors/refugees in Falconia.

So is everyone outside Falconia safe now that the Sea God is dead?

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We have already seen that Griffith ordered his army to rescue convoys of refugees from trolls and other mythical beasts. The Sea God was certainly a much bigger threat than a pack of trolls or ogres.


Yes, they were clearing the way for those who had successfully made the trek. That doesn't mean Griffith has a standing order to rescue all humans.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: DANGERDOOOOM on January 10, 2017, 11:28:56 PM
Their "relationship" ended when Guts attacked her.

I seem to recall Casca physically attacking Guts several times when they were both in the Band of the Hawk. She was especially good at verbally attacking him. And it seemed to only strengthen their relationship. Why are you ignoring that both Casca AND Guts have succumb to severe mental issues? Unlike Casca, Guts' hatred and extreme urge for revenge was what kept him sane, but at a cost of going berserk.

I feel if Guts never attacked Casca, Guts would have most likely never accepted anyone into his party. He knew how dangerous he was protecting her all by himself, which is why he took people in; for the sole purpose of keeping an extra eye on her and ensuring that she is safe.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 11, 2017, 01:28:30 AM
I agree that the child will be cause of a disagreement between them, and also that Casca's main focus will be to save her child, but that doesn't mean Guts won't choose to postpone/abandon his quest for revenge to follow Casca and protect her, and that she would reject both him and her new friends, especially if you think that Guts has promised to never lose her again, that powerful scene in the cave in volume 17 would mean nothing if that happened.

Miura said that Guts will eventually face Griffith in a final battle.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/5frta8/berserk_guidebook_interview_full_translation_part/

It makes no sense whatsoever for Guts to abandon his quest for revenge after Casca is cured. We don't know what the Idea Of Evil is planning to do but it can't be anything good. The IOE has to be dealt with eventually and its servants (including Griffith) have to be destroyed. This has to be done for the sake of humanity. It is much more important than Casca's feelings.

Guts promised not to abandon Casca again (in Volume 17) and he did exactly what he promised to do. He went to Albion, rescued her, and brought her safely to Elfhelm. His mission to protect Casca ended as soon as they met the Elf Queen and Casca's therapy began. Once Casca is cured she should be able to take care of herself. She shouldn't need anyone to keep protecting her.

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In Episode 92 the child was still a demon, and SK said that, as such, he would bring woe upon them. But now he's no longer such a thing, his nature has not been clarified yet, but he's no longer a demon, because Guts and Casca's brands don't bleed whenever he appears.

How do we know that he isn't? Just because their brands don't bleed doesn't necessarily prove anything. It's just another inconsistency in the story. Guts' brand reacted (a little) to Flora and we know that Flora had no evil in her at all. Guts' brand reacted to Daiba and we know that Daiba isn't an apostle and isn't really evil. We have no idea what Casca's child is truly capable of, maybe he can somehow conceal his od so that he can interact with Casca and Guts without making their brands bleed.

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Posted by: jackson_hurley
« on: Today at 04:07:37 PM »

Considering every thing that happened to Casca starting from the eclipse, I'd doubt it very much that she would become an apostle just to protect her child. I'd find it very bad writing if that would be the case.

I'm pretty sure there will be some kind of conflict concerning the child but to turn into an apostle?

So how is Casca supposed to stop Guts from killing Griffith (which will also kill her child)? She certainly can't stop Guts just by using her normal, human strength/fighting skills. Guts was always a much better warrior than Casca, we have seen this since their very first fight. Casca was never anywhere near Guts' level. Don't forget what happened in Episodes 189 - 190 when Casca tried to attack Guts, she was instantly disarmed and restrained.

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Posted by: Walter
« on: Today at 04:58:43 PM »

For them to face the end together, as comrades again, reunited against the source of the tragedies they each faced, makes for a more coherent story to me than what you seem to be proposing, which I gahter is an angst-filled Casca going lone wolf against Griffith, with Guts following closely behind her? That just sounds pretty shitty man.
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Well, that's stupid for a variety of reasons. Namely that apostles physically can't stand against the God Hand, as we've seen.

What are you talking about? I never said anything like that. What I'm proposing is that Casca will not allow Guts to do anything that may hurt or kill her child. There's nothing incoherent or shitty about a mother defending her child at any cost. She is not going to "stand against" Griffith. She will have to defend him (no matter how much she may now hate him) because he's using her kid as a vessel/hostage.

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And do I really need to remind you that Guts and Casca were more than comrades?

Yes, Guts and Golden Age Casca were more than comrades but how exactly is this still relevant now? We agree that we aren't getting Golden Age Casca back when she is cured, right?
I believe that the new, sane Casca will have a very different personality. She is now a mother first and foremost. Even if Guts still sees Casca as a legitimate commander of the Band Of The Hawk (which would be ridiculous anyway) the old BOTH doesn't exist anymore. And I doubt that anyone else in Guts' party will be willing to accept Casca as their leader. They don't even know her.

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The nobles however have no valuable role.
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Anyway, even if the nobles who survived in Vritannis aren't necessarily valuable to Griffith, they served a valuable narrative purpose: an audience initially skeptical of Griffith's reapperance, and to address (and for Charlotte to rule out) the rumor of his treason. It was the inevitable challenge to Griffith's intent to rule, and it was struck down in magnificent fashion with the apperance of not only the pontiff, but princess Charlotte herself.

So then how are they "not useful" to Griffith? They ended up unintentionally helping him and that was the point. That's why they had to survive.

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So is everyone outside Falconia safe now that the Sea God is dead?

They aren't safe but they now have a better chance of surviving and escaping to Falconia. The world in which Berserk takes place is huge. There's no question that some of the refugees come from coastal areas and some probably traveled by ship to reach the continent where Falconia is located. Yes, the Sea God was going to be a serious threat. Even the strongest apostles would have a very hard time defeating it. Just like with Ganishka's ultimate form, Griffith would have had to intervene personally. But now he doesn't... because Guts already took care of it.  So it really does look like the IOE is using Guts as a "useful idiot".

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It's been consistent enough.
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Semantics. The rules were that he had to give up something so important to him that "shedding it would be like giving up a part of yourself." The Falcons qualify for that. Also, they were all gathered.

No, these are not "semantics". The Band Of The Hawk itself was a huge retcon. When Guts confronted Griffith in the astral world during the Black Swordsman story arc we saw a flashback scene of a younger Guts and a still-human Griffith. What did we learn there? That Guts and Griffith used to be best friends and comrades and that Guts became Griffith's sacrifice. No Band Of The Hawk was ever shown or mentioned in that scene. And Guts didn't tell Griffith anything like "I will make you pay for what you did to me and to our comrades". Even when they met Zodd it was still implied that Guts (and only Guts) is a valid sacrifice. Zodd warned Guts (not the rest of the BOTH) that when Griffith's dream collapses he (Guts) will face a death that he can't escape.

There's no denying that Miura simply didn't plan that far ahead when he wrote that part of the story. Of course it looks much better, much more dramatic that the whole BOTH got branded and sacrificed. That's why it happened the way it did. It's not the worst inconsistency ever, there is a perfectly acceptable in-universe explanation why it happened the way it did (the IOE will modify its own rules to do what needs to be done). But it is an inconsistency.

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Skull Knight was right that the child's twisted existence brought them some amount of grief (it can't live as their son, which tortures Casca). However, it wasnt a prophecy, it turned out to be a bad judment call, because SK didn't know the full scope. He also didn't know the nature of the boy. He assumed that because of its form, that it had chosen an evil existence. In fact, the child had that evil form forced upon him, and he has acted against that nature in every action we've seen him take — protecting his parents against all odds, extinguishing his life to keep Casca safe.
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Well, you're hinging your entire ending theory on a prophecy that wasn't a prophecy.

The Skull Knight was never shown to be wrong before. He was right when he said:

- that Guts was born from a corpse and began his life from death in the mud
- that Guts has what it takes to survive the Eclipse
- that Guts may have some connection to the Elves (and we saw much later that teen Guts' life was saved by that flower spirit girl who is a type of elf)
- that the incarnation ceremony in Albion can't be stopped (I know that Guts had no time to hunt the Egg apostle but even the Skull Knight himself failed to kill him)
- that the Elf Sovereign can cure Casca's mind
- that Guts and his party will have to overcome many obstacles on their way to Elfhelm (i.e. the battle in Vritannis, the Sea God)
- that Guts will slowly lose his humanity if he keeps using the berserker armor (and we know that this is true, Guts is already losing some of his senses)

But you expect me to believe that the Skull Knight was wrong about the child? I don't buy it. Just because the child keeps protecting Casca and Guts doesn't necessarily mean that the child is now "good". Is the child outside causality? Well, we don't have any evidence that he is. Because if he is, then Casca was supposed to get killed by falling rocks when Zodd destroyed the elf cave, Guts was supposed to massacre his party during the battle on the beach near Vritannis, and Guts was also supposed to die inside the Sea God. And that makes no sense.

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Could you please cut it out with this reductive shit? It has no place in Berserk. Use those tropes on series that take actual plot shortcuts.

What reductive shit? What tropes? It's absolutely pointless for Farnese to go through all the character development that she went through if she is going to become just another magic user in Guts' party once her role as Casca's babysitter comes to an end. In fact something like that really would be bad writing. There are plenty of magic users in Elfhelm and at least one of them (Morda) already expressed interest in seeing the outside world. If Elfhelm is attacked it's perfectly fair to assume that the surviving mages will want to join Guts' party. Just like it's fair to assume that Guts and Silat will eventually team up against a common enemy. Just like it's fair to assume that Isma will play an important role in the future even though her abilities don't seem to be relevant to combat on land. Berserk seems to be entering a new phase: the war to save humanity.

And let's be realistic here, Farnese is not the most experienced or the most powerful magic user. Her most important trait is her new, nice personality and her feelings for Guts. Farnese can do something for Guts that even Schierke can't. She can be Guts' new woman. To throw all that away just to appease fans who want Golden Age Casca back would be pointless and I'm confident that Miura will not do this.
Golden Age Casca "died" during the Eclipse. It is pointless for Guts to restart a relationship with a woman who (mentally) doesn't exist anymore.

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We don't know the IoE's intentions with the Beherit. Stop pretending that we do, or at least phrase things in a suppositonal manner.

My theory uses actual evidence from the manga and makes much more sense than the theory that Guts' Beherit will be used by some random person in the middle of nowhere. What is another random apostle at this point? Just a speed bump on the road to final confrontation with Griffith. Random apostles are basically cannon fodder now to Guts (in berserker armor) and the Skull Knight. I doubt that any apostle other than Griffith's elite henchmen could pose any serious challenge to Guts now.

There's nobody else in Guts' party right now who could qualify to use that Beherit. And there is absolutely no way that Guts will use it. We agree that it would be pointless and a terrible way to end the story.

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Would you care to place a bet on this possibility?

I would. I'm sure that back in 1996 some fans were upset and angry when the old Band Of The Hawk was wiped out during the Eclipse. I see posts on various forums all the time how Pippin and Judo should have survived the Eclipse. They are missing the point. The Eclipse was so well done, it was so dramatic, precisely because Guts, Casca, and Rickert were the only ones who survived. And I stand by what I said earlier. Golden Age Casca mentally "died" during the Eclipse. She is never coming back. Miura always wrote a good story, not a story designed to appease certain fans.

I do believe that if Guts is forced to fight (and kill) Casca before he can fight Griffith that it will be the most interesting, difficult, and tragic battle that Guts will ever have. I do believe that this will be the perfect final battle for Berserk... because it will be so different from what we have seen before. We saw plenty of battles between armies and we saw how the apostles can fight as an organized military force.

The final battle must have something that we didn't see before. And this "something" can't be just a bigger, badder enemy or battleground (i.e. no Guts going into the Vortex Of Souls to chop up the Idea Of Evil or some other nonsense like that).
The final battle must be a real moral dilemma for Guts without any lame cliches (i.e. no Guts and Griffith both dying, no Isidro picking up Guts' sword and becoming Guts 2.0).

I am confident that Miura will not disappoint us.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Rupert Sinclair on January 11, 2017, 02:39:31 AM
I am confident that Miura will not disappoint us.

Oh he definitely won't disappoint us, but I'm sorry I think he will be disappointing you.  :sad:
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Walter on January 11, 2017, 02:55:02 AM
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So how is Casca supposed to stop Guts from killing Griffith (which will also kill her child)?

News flash! That's Guts child too! Something you keep discounting in your posts about this subject.

This whole conflict you've landed on is reminiscent of someone trying to definitively answer what happened 1,000 years ago using only the incomplete puzzle pieces that we have; disregarding variables that may slide into place in the near future. You presuppose that Casca's motherly instinct will be as dominant as it is in her current non-lucid state. You presuppose that Casca won't want to be part of killing Griffith after what he did to her and her comrades. You presuppose acting as a guard dog to her son's split identity is the only solution to his continued existence (and that there will be no remedy for this dillema). You presuppose that Guts' revenge would lead him to cleave open the woman he loves so that he can tear into his own son. Again, you don't seem to have a very high regard for Casca or Guts, particularly when their personalities get in the way of your odd fetish of having them fight a final battle as monster and human.

If you can't see the ending based on the pieces in play yet, that's by design. There's no need to rush off to these gross conclusions.

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What are you talking about? I never said anything like that.

Yeah, I don't know how I could have gotten so confused. This thread has flowed so naturally.

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Yes, Guts and Golden Age Casca were more than comrades but how exactly is this still relevant now?

Because they are in the process of restoring Casca's mind, which means at some point, in some manner, their previous relationship will be reconciled with (Guts: Hey, remember when we kissed?). And that synthesis of who they were then and who they are now is going to lay the foundation for what's to come for both of them. How is any of that not plainly obvious?

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Even if Guts still sees Casca as a legitimate commander of the Band Of The Hawk (which would be ridiculous anyway) the old BOTH doesn't exist anymore. And I doubt that anyone else in Guts' party will be willing to accept Casca as their leader. They don't even know her.

What's ridiculous is this faux conflict you're creating here: So Casca is back, and Guts immediately moves to raise her to party leader because of her resume? Will Isidro spit on the ground saying she hasn't earned it yet? It won't happen right away (that would be ridiculous), but when it happens, it will be because Casca's a natural fit for the leader of this group. Miura has even molded the current group dynamic with a vacant leader position since its inception back in Volume 24. Schierke is the tactical leader because of her astral knowledge. Guts is the de facto leader, because of his combat knowledge and his stature in the group. But he'll be the first to admit being a leader isn't really in the cards for him (he ceded the role to Schierke with no qualms). Casca has demonstrated a natural ability to lead. This is the role she was meant for, not another notch on the Dragon Slayer.

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So then how are they "not useful" to Griffith? They ended up unintentionally helping him and that was the point. That's why they had to survive.

I won't fault you for not paying attention when I wrote that while the noblemen served no practical purpose for Griffith, they served a narrative purpose in the story -- as in, their inclusion was for us to see that minor conflict play itself out. It changed absolutely nothing in the story. You're grasping at the air.

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They aren't safe but they now have a better chance of surviving and escaping to Falconia.

You're simultaneously discounting the actual threat of the thousands of hostile astral creatures freely roaming the continent (and the air), and overvaluing a potential coastal threat.

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The Band Of The Hawk itself was a huge retcon.

The primary sacrifice of consequence in the story was "a retcon?" Why are you even reading Berserk? I'm serious, it's baffling to me that you can have such a low opinion of the story and be so quick to judge what you perceive to be inconsistencies.

Yet you shrug your shoulders in addressing the inconsistency of Farnese likely meaning nothing to a restored Casca. Afterall, by your own words, she will emerge with "a very different personality," so why would her friendship with Farnese in her non-lucid state matter to Casca then? Using what fuzzy math would Farnese be a valid sacrifice, when her child is clearly all that matters, under your understanding of things to come?

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No Band Of The Hawk was ever shown or mentioned in that scene. And Guts didn't tell Griffith anything like "I will make you pay for what you did to me and to our comrades".

Why was it necessary for the Band of the Falcon to be mentioned in those sequences? Zodd not mentioning it back in Volume 5 doesn't mean shit. He was talking to Guts. Is this how you've assessed your "retcon" conclusion?

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It's not the worst inconsistency ever, there is a perfectly acceptable in-universe explanation why it happened the way it did. But it is an inconsistency.

You still haven't explained what the inconsistency was. I have already demonstrated why it was valid, falling under the category of something irreplaceable that is a part of who you are. All you've done is used words like plot armor and retcon, and complain about how certain dialogue wasn't written in strict legalese to encompasse ye whole grande armee.

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(the IOE will modify its own rules to do what needs to be done).

I.E. you have no faith in Miura's abilities as a writer.

Also, that's actually not how causality is shown to work. It is not an active means of controlling humanity. It is passive, and it is planned centuries in advance.

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The Skull Knight was never shown to be wrong before. He was right when he said:

That wasn't a prophecy. And as I have already explained, he was right on the surface:  The nature of the child's existence was distressing to both of them. But SK was wrong about the big picture of the child's role, which is something he (likely) had no way of knowing. Also, if you're so adamant about SK having some inclination of what role the child would play, then how do you reconcile his advice to Guts that he should stomp it out of existence immediately after its birth? Can we agree that this course of action would have been somewhat ... problemattic? After escaping the cave, Casca would have been dead a thousand times over, and Guts would never have reunited with her. The story as we know it would never have unfolded. Moral of the story: Grandpa doesn't always know what he's talking about.

If you'd prefer, another reading of SK's wording is that nothing about the child's existence has resulted in fulfilling SK's wording -- YET. So you could choose to cling to that one panel in Volume 14 like Theresia's final words to Guts in the hopes that it will be proven out eventually. See you in 20 years?

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Just because the child keeps protecting Casca and Guts doesn't necessarily mean that the child is now "good".

Sorry, but when was the child ever not "good?" He has always clung to and protected his parents. It's literally all we ever see him do. The nature of his existence -- his body, his power, disappearing with daylight like specters -- is what's evil by nature, and that's a result of Femto.

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What reductive shit? What tropes?

I was referring to your casual use of the reductive term "plot armor."

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Farnese can do something for Guts that even Schierke can't. She can be Guts' new woman.

Worst couple ever. Also, our community has been over this topic many painful times in the past year, and I'm sick of it, so please excuse me if I don't engage with this gross notion again here. But if you are curious, you can conduct a search.

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My theory uses actual evidence from the manga and makes much more sense than the theory that Guts' Beherit will be used by some random person in the middle of nowhere. What is another random apostle at this point? Just a speed bump on the road to final confrontation with Griffith.

Sorry, who was offering the theory that the beherit MUST be used for a sacrificial ceremony? Certainly not by me or anyone in this thread. I feel like I've typed this out 1,000 times at this point, but since you're new: The Skull Knight has demonstrated how beherits can be used for alternative means, exploiting their connection to a deep region of the astral world (the Abyss). Their role in that regard was recently highlighted by the gurus as being a "road of dragons." And we're in Elfhelm, a place surrounded by people knowledgeable of such things. I don't think it's crazy to suppose that we might learn yet another use such an object might have.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Cyrus Jong on January 11, 2017, 05:48:20 AM
Because if something is necessary to advance the plot, it will happen... even if it isn't 100% logical.
Truly, what a winning argument. Throw logic out the window, only what you say goes. You're really going to convince people with that line of thinking. If I ever find myself on trial, I'll know who to call to be my defendant.

But it sums your pet theory up. It's not based on logic at all. It's not based on facts or events that have been established in the manga. It's based entirely on what you alone want and what you alone want to see. Anything that comes up that directly contradicts it? An inconsistency, a retcon, plot armor, or some other bullshit facet of bad writing. It can't possibly be because, wait for it...that you could in fact be wrong and that you have a poor understanding of the story! Perish the thought!

You've already got a warped bias. You hate Casca, you conflate her negative traits, completely ignore her positive ones, and resort to a ton of double standards to justify it. You dismiss arguments against your predictions concerning her as they don't respect her position as a "stronk independent woman," and yet all you're doing is basically speaking for her and deciding what all her motivations will be when she hasn't even had a chance to say anything.

And what does this all come down? Shipping. You want Casca neatly out of the way so that Farnese can move in and make Guts her hubby. There's a trope for that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip), you know. And just when I thought that Berserk's fandom was immune to this bullshit.

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In fact something like that really would be bad writing.

When your own theory requires bad writing to work out (which is what inconsistencies, retcons, plot armor, and forced plot contrivances, all of which you've championed in this topic, are), you're in no position to criticize possibilities outside of it as "bad writing."

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Miura always wrote a good story, not a story designed to appease certain fans.

And a good story can only be whatever you want. Because if it isn't, then it's only designed to "appease certain fans." :schierke:
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 11, 2017, 08:56:06 AM
News flash! That's Guts child too! Something you keep discounting in your posts about this subject.
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You presuppose that Casca's motherly instinct will be as dominant as it is in her current non-lucid state. You presuppose that Casca won't want to be part of killing Griffith after what he did to her and her comrades.
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you don't seem to have a very high regard for Casca

Why do I keep mentioning Episode 92? Because it's probably one of the most important post-Eclipse episodes in the story so far. We all know that the child is Guts' child too. And we know that Guts tried to kill the child a few seconds after it was born... and that Casca fought literally tooth and nail to protect the child. I don't believe that scene was written for no reason. I don't believe that anything in Berserk is just a coincidence. Casca did not defend her child because she is insane. She did it because it's her child. And now the child looks like a normal human boy, not a monster.

Does this mean that Guts will be so disturbed by what he is about to do (kill his own son) that in the end he will spare Griffith's life? No. There's no possibility of this happening. Griffith and the rest of the Godhand must be destroyed for the sake of humanity and Guts knows this. I'm not saying that Guts will become a heartless bastard but he will have to put personal feelings aside and do the right thing. But will Casca do the same?

The power of a mother's love is a tremendous, universal theme in fiction. I believe that Casca will never agree to sacrifice her child's life under any circumstances. And quite frankly for anyone (in the story and in real life) who likes and respects Casca as a character/person it's simply awful and heartless to demand that Casca must sacrifice her child after everything she has been through. It would be far more merciful if she gives her life to protect her child. It's even more ridiculous to suggest that Casca will agree to kill her child in order to punish Griffith for raping her / avenge the old Band Of The Hawk. Casca isn't like Guts. You know what would be real bad writing, in fact terrible writing? If the new, sane Casca becomes a female version of Black Swordsman Guts. Nonsense like that would make me lose all respect for Miura.

You don't like the idea of Casca becoming an apostle in a desperate attempt to stop Guts? Fine. But if you have any respect for her don't insist that she must "change her mind" and "agree with Guts" in the end.

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You presuppose acting as a guard dog to her son's split identity is the only solution to his continued existence (and that there will be no remedy for this dillema).

If there is any way to separate the child from Griffith's body it should definitely require divine intervention, and there's no evidence that any "good god" exists in Berserk who is capable of doing this. You think the IOE never considered the possibility that someone might try to separate Griffith from his vessel? We already saw how the IOE keeps protecting Griffith over and over. Griffith (as a normal human) survived several assassination attempts, many battles, and let's not forget the encounter with Wyald. Griffith (as a member of the Godhand) survived what should have been a lethal blow from the Skull Knight's Beherit-enchanted sword. As I said before, the IOE is not stupid. I'm sure that it has a contingency plan for literally everything. Griffith isn't stupid either. He knows about the child, he knows that someday it may be used against him. Why do you think Griffith is now trying to kill all magic users?

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Because they are in the process of restoring Casca's mind, which means at some point, in some manner, their previous relationship will be reconciled with (Guts: Hey, remember when we kissed?). And that synthesis of who they were then and who they are now is going to lay the foundation for what's to come for both of them. How is any of that not plainly obvious?

Because what you are describing here is not Berserk. We are not getting Golden Age Casca back. That's the Casca that Guts remembers, that's the Casca that Guts had a relationship with. Berserk isn't a Hollywood B-movie or Sailor Moon where the guy and the girl overcome all challenges with the power of love. We already saw what love sometimes leads to in Berserk. Griffith raped Casca in front of Guts precisely because he knew that Guts and Casca were in love. I'm not saying that love will always lead to tragedy in Berserk but I don't believe that Miura will use cliches like "the power of love" to advance the story.

I believe that post-Eclipse Guts is now very reluctant to get into any romantic relationship with anyone. Guts knows very well what happened the last time, he knows that his girlfriend can (and probably will) be used against him again. It makes no sense for Guts to get into a romantic relationship with anyone right now, at least not until the Godhand and all the apostles are destroyed.

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What's ridiculous is this faux conflict you're creating here: So Casca is back, and Guts immediately moves to raise her to party leader because of her resume? Will Isidro spit on the ground saying she hasn't earned it yet? It won't happen right away (that would be ridiculous), but when it happens, it will be because Casca's a natural fit for the leader of this group.
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Casca has demonstrated a natural ability to lead. This is the role she was meant for.

That's completely pointless. We are not getting Golden Age Casca back. Why do you assume that the new Casca will have any interest in being anyone's leader? Just because she can still swing a sword and defend herself doesn't mean that she will ever want to go back to her old life as a warrior.

Once again nobody can answer this simple question. Why can't the new, sane Casca do what she wants, not what Guts (and the fans) want?

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You're simultaneously discounting the actual threat of the thousands of hostile astral creatures freely roaming the continent (and the air), and overvaluing a potential coastal threat.

I'm not "overvaluing" anything. The Sea God was portrayed as a very serious threat for a reason. I will even say that the Sea God was just as much of a threat as Ganishka's ultimate form except in the ocean and to the coastal areas instead of on land.

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The primary sacrifice of consequence in the story was "a retcon?" Why are you even reading Berserk? I'm serious, it's baffling to me that you can have such a low opinion of the story and be so quick to judge what you perceive to be inconsistencies.

ret·con
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.

What's the problem with what I said? You know as well as I do that the Band Of The Hawk wasn't even hinted at when Guts met Griffith in the astral world during the Black Swordsman story arc. Retcons can improve the story dramatically when done right or ruin the story when done wrong. In this case, the fact that the whole BOTH was sacrificed made the Eclipse much more dramatic and much more interesting.

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Yet you shrug your shoulders in addressing the inconsistency of Farnese likely meaning nothing to a restored Casca. Afterall, by your own words, she will emerge with "a very different personality," so why would her friendship with Farnese in her non-lucid state matter to Casca then?


Casca isn't suffering from amnesia and her therapy definitely will not result in any memory loss. I believe that I already explained before why it would be pointless to make Casca forget what happened to her. I never said that Farnese "will not matter" to the new, sane Casca. Yes, Casca will have a very different personality. We are not getting Golden Age Casca back. Casca will remember everything that happened and everyone who she interacted with while she was insane.

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Using what fuzzy math would Farnese be a valid sacrifice, when her child is clearly all that matters, under your understanding of things to come?

The Egg apostle already stretched the definition of what is or isn't a "valid sacrifice" to the breaking point. Farnese is still Casca's best friend, the child is Casca's loved one. Who says that both of them can't qualify as a sacrifice? Now let's be realistic here. A valid sacrifice is whatever the Idea Of Evil decides can be a valid sacrifice. Don't expect an (evil) god to play by the rules, not even by its own rules.

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Also, that's actually not how causality is shown to work. It is not an active means of controlling humanity. It is passive, and it is planned centuries in advance.

We have no idea what the IOE is truly capable of. Just like we have no idea what the Godhand are truly capable of. Of course there has to be some limit to their power, otherwise the heroes will not be able to win. But it's too early right now to say that "the IOE / the Godhand can't do this or that". I will be honest with you, I don't expect most of Guts' allies to survive the final battle. I believe that Miura is saving the best horror and tragedy for the endgame.

I hope nobody got the impression that I want Casca to die in the end while the rest of Guts' party survives. Absolutely not. We have seen many times that anyone can die in Berserk, even children. The only character who absolutely must survive in the end is Guts, because if Guts dies the story immediately ends. And I don't believe that Miura will use such a cheap plot device to end Berserk.

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That wasn't a prophecy. And as I have already explained, he was right on the surface:  The nature of the child's existence was distressing to both of them. But SK was wrong about the big picture of the child's role, which is something he (likely) had no way of knowing. Also, if you're so adamant about SK having some inclination of what role the child would play, then how do you reconcile his advice to Guts that he should stomp it out of existence immediately after its birth? Can we agree that this course of action would have been somewhat ... problemattic? After escaping the cave, Casca would have been dead a thousand times over, and Guts would never have reunited with her. The story as we know it would never have unfolded. Moral of the story: Grandpa doesn't always know what he's talking about.

But Guts couldn't kill the child back then no matter what he did because it wasn't the child's time to die. Just like the Skull Knight couldn't kill the Egg apostle. Just like the Skull Knight couldn't even touch Void and Griffith. Isn't it obvious that Guts and the Skull Knight are not outside causality?
I don't believe that the Skull Knight "doesn't always know what he's talking about". If anything, he seems to know too much, even things that he shouldn't know (i.e. that Guts was born from a corpse).

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Sorry, but when was the child ever not "good?" He has always clung to and protected his parents. It's literally all we ever see him do. The nature of his existence -- his body, his power, disappearing with daylight like specters -- is what's evil by nature, and that's a result of Femto.

You answered your own question. That's right, we never saw what the child does "off screen". We have no idea what he does when we can't see him.

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Sorry, who was offering the theory that the beherit MUST be used for a sacrificial ceremony? Certainly not by me or anyone in this thread. I feel like I've typed this out 1,000 times at this point, but since you're new: The Skull Knight has demonstrated how beherits can be used for alternative means, exploiting their connection to a deep region of the astral world (the Abyss).

Sometimes the most simple explanation is the right one. The Beherit is used to summon the Godhand... and that's exactly what Guts' Beherit will be used for.

I don't see any reason for them to use Guts' Beherit to reach the Abyss now that the worlds have merged and they can use the branches of the World Tree to reach any destination.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Sancho on January 11, 2017, 12:49:32 PM
Miura said that Guts will eventually face Griffith in a final battle.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/5frta8/berserk_guidebook_interview_full_translation_part/

It makes no sense whatsoever for Guts to abandon his quest for revenge after Casca is cured. We don't know what the Idea Of Evil is planning to do but it can't be anything good. The IOE has to be dealt with eventually and its servants (including Griffith) have to be destroyed. This has to be done for the sake of humanity. It is much more important than Casca's feelings.

But of course there will be a final battle between them. I didn't deny that. But, is Guts now pursuing that revenge? No. He already put that wish aside for the sake of protecting Casca, though he's still hoping he'll have a chance someday since his trauma is still present, but he isn't going to leave her to hunt down Griffith, that would be exactly like what he did after the Eclipse, a mistake that he swore to never do again, it would be too stupidly redundant for his character developement to happen. And for Guts i doubt protecting humanity is even more important than Casca's feelings, he's no hero on a quest to save the world, though he'll end up to.

Is the final battle really happening because of Guts's hatred for Griffith and his desire of revenge i wonder? Or because of a new conviction in reclaiming their child? Would it really be a victory if Guts defeated Griffith by giving to his hate and all emotions that separates him from humanity? Miura said that he doesn't want a grim ending for Berserk, how grim it would be for Guts or Casca to be victim of a sacrifice by one another?


Guts promised not to abandon Casca again (in Volume 17) and he did exactly what he promised to do. He went to Albion, rescued her, and brought her safely to Elfhelm. His mission to protect Casca ended as soon as they met the Elf Queen and Casca's therapy began. Once Casca is cured she should be able to take care of herself. She shouldn't need anyone to keep protecting her.

He promised to never lose her again, that means literaly he'll never abandon her no matter what she'll choose to do. "She should be able to take care of herself"? Really? He also thought she was safe inside that cave when he went around hunting apostles. But he heavily regretted his choice on that same cave 2 years later. Can you see why the same thing would be redundant now on Skellig (which, just like the cave, is protected by its connection to the elves)? I suspect Miura has set all this on purpose in order to put Guts in front of the same choice.


How do we know that he isn't? Just because their brands don't bleed doesn't necessarily prove anything. It's just another inconsistency in the story. Guts' brand reacted (a little) to Flora and we know that Flora had no evil in her at all. Guts' brand reacted to Daiba and we know that Daiba isn't an apostle and isn't really evil. We have no idea what Casca's child is truly capable of, maybe he can somehow conceal his od so that he can interact with Casca and Guts without making their brands bleed.

Schierke said in volume 37, episode 331, that the od she perceveid from the boy was not human, but not even that of a repulsive being, and i think Guts would have a least make a comment if the Brand would have reacted even slightly to his presence. And you can't just toss aside a detail by pretending it's an inconsistency in the story.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 11, 2017, 01:42:07 PM
I think one of the trolls escaped in our own world and subscribed here. Or maybe it could be the Idea of Evil messing with us. Either way, this is getting ridiculous...
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Lawliet on January 11, 2017, 02:11:06 PM
I think one of the trolls escaped in our own world and subscribed here. Or maybe it could be the Idea of Evil messing with us. Either way, this is getting ridiculous...

Exactly why I usually dislike debating. People just don't ever want to admit to being wrong.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 11, 2017, 02:34:17 PM
Exactly why I usually dislike debating. People just don't ever want to admit to being wrong.

Indeed. I have been proven wrong a couple of times here and accepted the "defeat" and guess what? It resulted in a better understanding of the story. This is pretty much why I prefer to read the debates then participating, especially in a case like this one.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 11, 2017, 05:09:45 PM
But of course there will be a final battle between them. I didn't deny that. But, is Guts now pursuing that revenge? No. He already put that wish aside for the sake of protecting Casca, though he's still hoping he'll have a chance someday since his trauma is still present, but he isn't going to leave her to hunt down Griffith, that would be exactly like what he did after the Eclipse, a mistake that he swore to never do again, it would be too stupidly redundant for his character developement to happen. And for Guts i doubt protecting humanity is even more important than Casca's feelings, he's no hero on a quest to save the world, though he'll end up to.

Guts doesn't have to break his promise not to abandon Casca. Did you consider the possibility that Casca may leave Guts? We were already told several times that Casca will not want what Guts wants. Of course it can mean many different things but it's very likely that the new, sane Casca will strongly disagree with Guts about something important. And that may result in a bitter break up.

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He promised to never lose her again, that means literaly he'll never abandon her no matter what she'll choose to do.

So for example if Casca decides to go live peacefully in Falconia Guts will do it too? Really?

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Schierke said in volume 37, episode 331, that the od she perceveid from the boy was not human, but not even that of a repulsive being, and i think Guts would have a least make a comment if the Brand would have reacted even slightly to his presence. And you can't just toss aside a detail by pretending it's an inconsistency in the story.

It is an inconsistency or a retcon. This is what the Skull Knight explained to Guts about the Brand in Episode 92 in the official English translation of the manga.

"Follow the guidance of that brand. It reacts strongly to evil."

This is consistent with what we saw in the Black Swordsman story arc. But then beginning in Episode 199 we saw that Guts' and Casca's brands reacted to golems at the Spirit Tree Mansion. Were the golems powered by evil spirits? Obviously not.
In Episode 201 Guts' brand reacted a little bit to Flora. Was Flora evil? Obviously not.
In Episode 272 Guts' brand reacted to Daiba, and we know that Daiba isn't an apostle or really evil.

So it looks like the brand reacts not only to evil spirits but to anything supernatural and to anyone who may be associated with supernatural forces... except that this doesn't always happen for some reason. The fact that Guts' and Casca's brands didn't react to the child means absolutely nothing until we get a clear explanation about how the brand really works, especially now after the worlds have merged.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: jackson_hurley on January 11, 2017, 06:53:58 PM

In Episode 272 Guts' brand reacted to Daiba, and we know that Daiba isn't an apostle or really evil.


But Daiba was infused with Ganishka's mist though, so I'd remove him from the equation. Besides, Skullknight said it reacts strongly to evil but when Guts felt the golems it was not the same feeling. He even commented on it. More of a tingle than pain I'd say.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Walter on January 11, 2017, 07:13:00 PM
We were already told several times that Casca will not want what Guts wants. Of course it can mean many different things

Amazing, a gesture of arguing in good faith? Acknowledging there may be other valid interpretations? Wow! :ubik: You've taken your first step toward actually having a conversation.

So it looks like the brand reacts not only to evil spirits but to anything supernatural and to anyone who may be associated with supernatural forces... except that this doesn't always happen for some reason. The fact that Guts' and Casca's brands didn't react to the child means absolutely nothing until we get a clear explanation about how the brand really works, especially now after the worlds have merged.

It is consistent. I just think you're more interested in labeling things as "plot armor," "retcons" or "inconsistencies" than reasoning out the truth.

When the brand was first introduced, creatures such as the Kelpie, Ogre, Troll, etc. were not yet introduced. So when Skull Knight explains it in Vol 14, he doesn't bother adding: "Oh and by the way, should you come across mythical creatures at some point in the future -- and I have no idea why you should -- your brand may also be sensitive to them."

The brand is like an astral antenna, responding to various od in the same way that Schierke senses them, with a particular affinity for evil od. This is made clear throughout the latter half of the series.

Why doesn't the brand react to the boy? Because he may be capable of masking his true nature. This isn't an inconsistency. It's yet another demonstration of his incredible power. And Miura has already drawn attention to this issue, by having Schierke has address how curious it is that she didn't notice it beforehand.  Miura's saving the boy's nature for a later reveal. As for why the boy would mask its nature? So that it can freely walk among the group and be with his parents. If Schierke was able to get a solid reading on the kid, she might advise the group to stay away from him. Instead, for the first few visits he's "just" a mysterious boy.

In Episode 201 Guts' brand reacted a little bit to Flora. Was Flora evil? Obviously not.

Flora was a powerful magic user surrounded by astral artifacts and in a magical treehouse. His brand resonated with all of that. That little aside from Guts was also likely to confirm to the audience that Flora wasn't secretly an apostle in hiding, but was something different.

In Episode 272 Guts' brand reacted to Daiba, and we know that Daiba isn't an apostle or really evil.

Daiba had inhaled Ganishka's fog to give him power (which may have manifested in the form of enhanced control over the pischacha, which were likewise influenced by Ganishka's power). Guts comments on Daiba's association with apostles, because he could sense it through the brand.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 11, 2017, 08:00:34 PM

When the brand was first introduced, creatures such as the Kelpie, Ogre, Troll, etc. were not yet introduced. So when Skull Knight explains it in Vol 14, he doesn't bother adding: "Oh and by the way, should you come across mythical creatures at some point in the future -- and I have no idea why you should -- your brand may also be sensitive to them."

The brand is like an astral antenna, responding to various od in the same way that Schierke senses them, with a particular affinity for evil od. This is made clear throughout the latter half of the series.

And yet Guts and Casca weren't in constant pain when they were in Qliphoth.

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Why doesn't the brand react to the boy? Because he may be capable of masking his true nature. This isn't an inconsistency. It's yet another demonstration of his incredible power. And Miura has already drawn attention to this issue, by having Schierke has address how curious it is that she didn't notice it beforehand.  Miura's saving the boy's nature for a later reveal. As for why the boy would mask its nature? So that it can freely walk among the group and be with his parents. If Schierke was able to get a solid reading on the kid, she might advise the group to stay away from him. Instead, for the first few visits he's "just" a mysterious boy.

So the child needs to hide his true nature because his true nature is good? Didn't you say earlier that the child can't be evil because he always intervenes to protect his parents?
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Walter on January 11, 2017, 08:30:29 PM
Man, I apppreciate that your questions have become one-line softballs. These replies don't take me an hour to respond do.

And yet Guts and Casca weren't in constant pain when they were in Qliphoth.

You shouldn't equate creatures like the chimimoryo with apostles and the God Hand. Are you aware of the term "evil power" in Berserk? Because the God Hand and astral creatures aligned with darkness are not the same thing, as Slan's appearance showed. Besides, Schierke had drawn a talisman over the brands to help lessen their effect on the course of their journey. Didn't make much of a difference when Slan arrived though. Goes to show you the difference between those beings.

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So the child needs to hide his true nature because his true nature is good? Didn't you say earlier that the child can't be evil because he always intervenes to protect his parents?

I wasn't referring to his moral compass when I said true nature. I meant his nature as a "Superior Being" (title of Ep 243) with tremendous powers (powers that he successfully used without Schierke even being aware of it). If he wasn't somehow masking all of that, it's not hard to guess that Schierke would likely have noticed immediately that he wasn't just some boy.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Tama on January 11, 2017, 09:18:05 PM
I've been following this thread, and I have to ask Truth: do you think you might want to re-read the manga series again? I'm not saying that to be cheeky, I just feel like maybe you misunderstood some of the characters motives, feelings and the general outlook on them (mainly Guts and Casca). I understand what your saying about the relationship, but I would have to disagree. Like Walter said, the story makes it pretty clear how she felt for Guts during the Golden Age and before the eclipse occurred. I have a hard time believing Guts would harm his own son to kill Femto and I don't think that will even come into play and just makes for messy story telling.

I say take another look at the series, I think you will find that although there will be complications and things to overcome, I am sure Casca and Guts will form a strong bond once again soon enough.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 11, 2017, 10:19:49 PM
I've been following this thread, and I have to ask Truth: do you think you might want to re-read the manga series again? I'm not saying that to be cheeky, I just feel like maybe you misunderstood some of the characters motives, feelings and the general outlook on them (mainly Guts and Casca).

I re-read the manga (the official English version, not poor quality scanlations) 4 times last year.

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I understand what your saying about the relationship, but I would have to disagree. Like Walter said, the story makes it pretty clear how she felt for Guts during the Golden Age and before the eclipse occurred.

But that's exactly the point. How Golden Age Casca felt about Guts may not be how the new, sane Casca feels about Guts. Because nothing in the story so far implies that we are getting Golden Age Casca back.
I would ask anyone who keeps insisting that Guts and Casca will soon restart their relationship to carefully re-read Episode 328.

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I have a hard time believing Guts would harm his own son to kill Femto and I don't think that will even come into play and just makes for messy story telling.

If Guts doesn't kill Griffith, then the Idea Of Evil wins. And if that happens, human beings lose. Everyone in Falconia and anyone who ever associated with Griffith and the Godhand are going into the Vortex Of Souls (Berserk's version of hell)... and Guts knows this. He knew about this since the Black Swordsman story arc.

Right now Guts is not exactly a hero who will fight for the sake of mankind but it will be good character development for him if he becomes that type of hero in the end. Guts will need to make some very difficult and painful decisions about Casca and the child sooner or later. He can't keep delaying his final confrontation with Griffith forever.

That's why I said that Guts must face a moral dilemma in the final battle. Anything else will be underwhelming.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Sancho on January 11, 2017, 10:26:28 PM
Guts doesn't have to break his promise not to abandon Casca. Did you consider the possibility that Casca may leave Guts? We were already told several times that Casca will not want what Guts wants. Of course it can mean many different things but it's very likely that the new, sane Casca will strongly disagree with Guts about something important. And that may result in a bitter break up.

You're basically proposing that Casca may choose to leave Guts and his new friends to the point of not letting them follow her? Not even if he may be willing to renounce to whatever personal wish will put him in disagreement with her? That sounds rather absurd. Or maybe you're just keeping to avoid the matter that Guts WILL renounce to whatever will separate him from Casca.

Guts has already done that mistake not one but 2 times. He first left the Band of the Falcon to find and pursue an ambition for himself, only to find out after returning that what he really wanted was there the whole time, and that is having companions, his companions on the BotF, and thus regretting his previous act with "Why do i always see these things after they're done and gone?".
And 2 years later when he returned to that cave he realized in regret: "Did i go and do it again?" "...without even realizing i'd thrown it from the palm of my hand!".
How likely do you see it that he would do such a thing again?


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So for example if Casca decides to go live peacefully in Falconia Guts will do it too? Really?

Why she would do that? How would that help her save her child? How is it in her character to do something so awful to Guts? Since you first posted in this thread you're talking as if Casca would see Guts as a complete stranger whose life is expendable compared to her son's safety. The fact that they'll disagree doesn't mean Casca will choose outright to leave Guts. But whatever, let's just assume she would do this absurdity, then, yes, Guts would follow her. Guts has already show both at the end of the Conviction arc and after the battle of Vritannis that even in front of a chance to get to Griffith, he'll renounce to seek his revenge just to protect Casca.

I'm done replying to you in this thread anyway, since you're just keeping to ignore the aspects of both Guts's and Casca's characterization that go against your wish of seeing them breaking up.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: The Awful Truth on January 11, 2017, 11:11:08 PM
Why she would do that? How would that help her save her child? How is it in her character to do something so awful to Guts? Since you first posted in this thread you're talking as if Casca would see Guts as a complete stranger whose life is expendable compared to her son's safety. The fact that they'll disagree doesn't mean Casca will choose outright to leave Guts.

Griffith is using Casca's child as a vessel/hostage. Griffith lives in Falconia. Where else is Casca supposed to go if she wants to save/protect her child?

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But whatever, let's just assume she would do this absurdity, then, yes, Guts would follow her. Guts has already show both at the end of the Conviction arc and after the battle of Vritannis that even in front of a chance to get to Griffith, he'll renounce to seek his revenge just to protect Casca.

Right now Guts and his party are not ready to confront Griffith and the rest of the Godhand. If Guts goes to Falconia now, he will die.
I don't know why people (not you specifically but everyone who insists that Guts and Casca must restart their Golden Age relationship) are ignoring that the whole world has changed for the worse.
Griffith has accomplished his (really the Idea Of Evil's) goal. This is bad news. Although we don't know what the IOE is planning whatever it is it can't be anything good. This isn't about Guts' relationship with Casca anymore or about some promise that Guts made a long time ago. The story is quickly entering a new phase: the battle to save humanity.

To put it bluntly, Guts has to evolve as a character. Remember what Zodd said to the Skull Knight in Episode 224?

"You going to chase a woman in the middle of battle? That's rather unlike you."

The same applies to Guts now. Guts can't keep delaying his war against Griffith/the Godhand forever. He can't afford to waste time "rebuilding" a relationship with a woman who (mentally) doesn't exist anymore. The world is literally turning into hell.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: Rupert Sinclair on January 11, 2017, 11:56:51 PM
Griffith is using Casca's child as a vessel/hostage. Griffith lives in Falconia. Where else is Casca supposed to go if she wants to save/protect her child?

How is she even suppose to get there?  Have you really thought any of this through?  None of what you're proposing makes any sense, whether from a character and story perspective or from a logistical one.
Title: Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
Post by: asic on January 13, 2017, 11:08:40 AM
I think this thread is just going in circles now.

None of us can with certainty say what will happen with Guts and Casca when her mind is returned, although it is fun to theorize ofcourse and I do not fault Truth for speaking his mind. However @TheAwfulTruth you seem to be hellbent on proving your theory and projecting your own biases onto the story. Furthermore your understanding of character motivations seems rather completely skewed.

Edit:
Sorry for being a bit of a dick, didn't mean to put a damper on everything.