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Berserk => Speculation Nation => Topic started by: The Warrior-Prophet on November 03, 2016, 09:38:17 PM

Title: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: The Warrior-Prophet on November 03, 2016, 09:38:17 PM
Pretty daunting for a first post, but I hope to acquit myself well. I had read Berserk two years ago, getting most of the volumes at the municipal library. Most—I own about 10 volumes that fill in the gaps, so I can't be the most rigorous with any rereads or citations. The idea for this post was jump-started by a conversation I recently had with an old friend of mine who's currently working on his PhD in Philosophy. Of course the discourse swung to Berserk of all things.  We were talking about ways to potentially destroy the dark demiurge that controls most of the antagonists. The syllogism that came out of the discussion ended up looking like this.

1. There was a point in time in the past when ensouled human beings in material reality existed and the Idea of Evil did not exist.
2. There was a point in time in the past when enough ensouled human beings in material reality existed so that the Idea of Evil was born out of the collective gestalt of human unconsciousness.
3. Therefore: there is a direct proportional relationship between the number of ensouled human beings in reality and the Idea of Evil's power over ontological existence. And/or, there is a very specific threshold of ensouled human beings that gives the Idea of Evil conatus.

Our conclusion for destroying the Idea of Evil was basically to have the vast majority of humanity die. Thus negating all control or going below that threshold of ensouled humans that created the Idea of Evil. This sounds rather grim but it is a staple of plenty of eschatological religious traditions or mythology. Ragnarök in Norse mythology, Frashokereti—the final renovation of the universe in Zoroastrian theology, or the Eschaton in Christian theological propositions. The old world has to die for the new world to be born.

We had been musing about the equivalent of the Americas in the Berserkverse, and the polities therein that would have absolutely no way or ability to relocate their populations to Falconia. If the proportion of ensouled beings to the Idea of Evil's power is true, then he's losing hundreds of millions of souls that are powering its engine, as it were. Or it's coming perilously close to that threshold were the Idea of Evil didn't exist.

Our conclusion was that it would be the chiefest of ironies that the God Hand, in their neurotic fixation on dominating material reality, would accidentally wipe out too many humans and "kill" their Master.

The one thing I will confess that I don't fully grasp is the distinction that exists between souls and consciousness in the text. If the Idea of Evil's power is tied to all the souls that exist in the Abyss, then all of this train of thought is moot. But if the Idea of Evil's power is proportional to consciousness or unconsciousness, then for me that entails that it only relates to ensouled humans in material reality and not metaphysical spaces.

Please don't try to grill me too hard, I welcome any dialectic. I also don't pretend to be an expert in Berserk.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Sancho on November 03, 2016, 10:04:17 PM
I think that even the dead who lived their life with dark thoughts contribute to feeds the Idea of Evil. Now i'll admit that going by this reasoning the number of souls should unavoidably only increase without ever decreasing, but we saw it in episode 83, the IoE absorb and feeds upon the dark thoughts of the dead in the vortex of souls, so even if all human kind should extinguish would the IoE really cease to exist?
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: The Warrior-Prophet on November 03, 2016, 10:19:41 PM
Whether the Idea of Evil is fueled by human souls that exist in a purely metaphysical sense or exist in material reality is the great uncertainty that I'm confused about. And the latter is the hinge upon which this argument swings, unfortunately.  But I'm not a zealot, it was just what Henri and I were talking about. Things like referring to "collective subconscious of humanity" makes me think it is the latter. Can one have nous or unconsciousness when one is a purely spiritual being?
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: MrFlibble on November 03, 2016, 10:59:48 PM
It's true that according to the lost *episode, (Sorry Walter don't ban me) , the IOE does not predate humanity, it was bought into existence by man. I believe in a theory that the IOE was created during the events that birthed the first God Hand 1000 years ago, since as far as we know, there was no interference from the IOE before then, apostles for example did not exist before the God Hand cycle, the evidence being that all of the corpses of the first eclipse don't show any signs of being torn apart, they were clearly not eaten alive like Femto's victims.

IOEs purpose is to give meaning to suffering, I think the way to defeat it is to rob it of its purpose, if mankind was no longer concerned with giving meaning to their suffering, then the IOE can no longer justify its existence. The question is though how to achieve it, though it is not a lofty goal considering the dramatic changes occurring on a world wide scale in Berserk.

Also the vortex of souls, is described as a place where evil souls dwell, but it is also described as a place that contains humanities dark emotions, so in a way a facet of every humans darker side probably exists there already. Bear in mind the astral world is also described as a place created by collective will, and where dead souls exist.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: The Warrior-Prophet on November 03, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
IOEs purpose is to give meaning to suffering, I think the way to defeat it is to rob it of its purpose, if mankind is no longer concerned with giving meaning to their suffering, then the IOE can no longer justify its existence. The question is though how to achieve it, though it is not a lofty goal considering the dramatic changes occurring on a world wide scale in Berserk.

Also the vortex of souls, is described as a place where evil souls dwell, but it is also described as a place that contains humanities dark emotions, so in a way a facet of every humans darker side probably exists there already. Bear in mind the astral world is also described as a place created by collective will, and where dead souls exist.

I've always been dubious about the "makes suffering meaningful", even though it's straight from the mouth of 'god.' If humanity predates the Idea of Evil, then human beings possessed souls before the Idea of Evil's existence. Baked into the DNA of ontological existence was the schema that facilitated the Idea of Evil's creation. There was always metaphysical intentionality a priori to the Idea of Evil's existence. It can only really provide a self-serving simulacrum of "meaningfulness"—whatever that entails. Henri put it pithily that, "all of material reality is a vast granary, and the dark emotions and evil souls that the Idea of Evil manufactures are the wheat/bread." But this isn't 'the way the world is', it's something that the Idea of Evil has cultivated to its benefit.

"Thinking positively" to wish away the Idea of Evil or to denounce one's own meaningfulness is also not the most practical, or even possible way. I don't know, I haven't really thought that much about it. Overcoming the self-aggrandizing anthropocentrism of humanity to believe in something else?—don't see it happening.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: the immortal bob on November 04, 2016, 06:06:32 AM
I've always been dubious about the "makes suffering meaningful", even though it's straight from the mouth of 'god.' If humanity predates the Idea of Evil, then human beings possessed souls before the Idea of Evil's existence. Baked into the DNA of ontological existence was the schema that facilitated the Idea of Evil's creation. There was always metaphysical intentionality a priori to the Idea of Evil's existence. It can only really provide a self-serving simulacrum of "meaningfulness"—whatever that entails. Henri put it pithily that, "all of material reality is a vast granary, and the dark emotions and evil souls that the Idea of Evil manufactures are the wheat/bread." But this isn't 'the way the world is', it's something that the Idea of Evil has cultivated to its benefit.

"Thinking positively" to wish away the Idea of Evil or to denounce one's own meaningfulness is also not the most practical, or even possible way. I don't know, I haven't really thought that much about it. Overcoming the self-aggrandizing anthropocentrism of humanity to believe in something else?—don't see it happening.

I always took the idea of evil and the entire point of view going back to the beginning of berserk as one half of a struggle.  Technically there is an arrangement in place, that bets on the weaker tendency of human beings in certain space.  However we see that Guts also finds strength in such spaces that these assertions are made.

Then you can see that at least in material reality it's not because of meaning in human suffering, it's because it's possible to do something horrible in suffering, but it's also possible to find your dreams.

You can say looking for meaning is what opened the whole can of worms, but it's hard to tell which situation you are trapped in and which situation you chose.

When Guts is in the band of the hawk he finds meaning to where he previously suffered in terms of trust and abandoment, family and friends, he changes his own heuristic based outlook in a concious intellectual way, where he is actively thinking about it.

Then when he hears griffith's speech it challenges that peace, but he once again finds positive meaning and now that he has found his ability to love, he wants to find his ability to have self onus or self control.  Essentially going to live life authentically.

Now by  doing that did he set into motion Griffith's trial of authenticity, which he responded to by doing the very thing that the idea of evil is predicated on.

Or did he find his way out of or through a situation he was "in."  Since the beginning to which someone close to him could not handle.

It makes it seem like in that case the idea of evil is predicated on the "idea." 

But if we see the thread continuing it makes it seem like Guts suffering is the only remedy or antithesis to the implications of the idea of evil.

When he is in such a space where he should cave, he goes against it.  Similarly to how he should have been crushed by griffith's speech but instead individuated from it.  Made meaning from it, not coincendentally hung out with a black smith.  Guts is forged here.  He clearly makes meaning from his suffering.  He clearly revisits the trauma of his child hood.  He fights based off that precipice that is left to him from that threshold.

When he goes against against spirtual inertia his blade becomes stronger, not by his design but because of his resistance to it.  Same with his tolerance for the beserker armor.  All of it involves suffering.   But it's not because he is the anthesis to the causality of the god hand and the idea, even though he is, it's because of his original thesis of how he would live that he got through his experience of trauma.  That is expressed through his fighting.

So in that sense Guts is the opposition in philosophy to the idea of evil, or in the examination for what is true about the world in berserk.  Guts idea is I make myself who i am, and the idea of evil's is I only exist because of you.

Or you could also see that in the Beast in Guts vs his concious decision.


Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Sancho on November 04, 2016, 11:05:44 AM
It's true that according to the lost chapter, the IOE does not predate humanity, it was bought into existence by man. I believe in a theory that the IOE was created during the events that birthed the first God Hand 1000 years ago, since as far as we know, there was no interference from the IOE before then, apostles for example did not exist before the God Hand cycle, the evidence being that all of the corpses of the first eclipse don't show any signs of being torn apart, they were clearly not eaten alive like Femto's victims.

IOEs purpose is to give meaning to suffering, I think the way to defeat it is to rob it of its purpose, if mankind was no longer concerned with giving meaning to their suffering, then the IOE can no longer justify its existence. The question is though how to achieve it, though it is not a lofty goal considering the dramatic changes occurring on a world wide scale in Berserk.


I think there is not enough evidence to think the IoE did not exist prior to what occurred 1000 years ago, though it probably didn't have the same power and grip on the world that it possess now. I like to think that somewhat it was about to be born and Void as a human did something that catalyzed the process of its creation, that would make Void the real villain who caused everything :void:  But the most likely answer is that it existed since when humanity was born.

Don't forget that audio interview with Miura of 2002, he said that he created Berserk by observing all the problems happening in the world and by trying to visualize the bigger picture, i believe he was referrin to the IoE there and the whole concept of human evil. I find hard to imagine that the IoE did not exist at a certain point in the past and then he was created, because it's something that strongly characterize and define humanity, as i find hard to believe it will ever be destroyed.

The key to counter the IoE is more likely the use of magic to make more easy and with less tragedies the lives of people, it's not a coincidence that the Holy See, rapresented both by a falcon and by a spiral (just as the spiral of the IoE), banished the use of magic, the IoE and God Hand knows that magic users could be very dangerous to their schemes, so it was mandatory to completely get rid of them.

So in that sense Guts is the opposition in philosophy to the idea of evil, or in the examination for what is true about the world in berserk.  Guts idea is I make myself who i am, and the idea of evil's is I only exist because of you.

If there's a human that most has the qualities opposed to the IoE, that is certainly Guts. When everyone hesitate when facing tragedies by seeking a meaning like "Why is this happening?" or something to cling on, his thoughts are only focused into figure out a way to survive. "Don't pray! If you're prayin' your hands are closed."  :guts:
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 04, 2016, 01:18:27 PM
The dark demiurge that controls most of the antagonists

It actually has a connection with the dark side of the subconsiousness of all humans.

1. There was a point in time in the past when ensouled human beings in material reality existed and the Idea of Evil did not exist.

Since the Idea of Evil is twice called "the god made by man," that's a given. But what would an UN-ensouled human being be? I'm not quite sure why you're stressing the possession of a soul. We know via Flora that there are options for what happens to souls, based on their karma — which implicitly means that the "afterlife," thus the soul, predates the Idea of Evil.

There was a point in time in the past when enough ensouled human beings in material reality existed so that the Idea of Evil was born out of the collective gestalt of human unconsciousness.

Therefore: there is a direct proportional relationship between the number of ensouled human beings in reality and the Idea of Evil's power over ontological existence. And/or, there is a very specific threshold of ensouled human beings that gives the Idea of Evil conatus.

I don't think there's any basis for quantifying such a thing. We don't know that it had anything to do with the number of humans. It could have resulted from the amount of pain/hate/suffering in the world just due to various atrocities, or it could have resulted from one massive incident. We really don't know.

Our conclusion for destroying the Idea of Evil was basically to have the vast majority of humanity die. Thus negating all control or going below that threshold of ensouled humans that created the Idea of Evil.

I follow your logic since you're basing it on a defined quantity that the Idea of Evil must have to maintain control, but I believe that's a fundamentally flawed premise. As far as I'm concerned, after such a cataclysm, the Idea of Evil would still maintain a grip on humanity through the:

 "ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls ... A common consciousness that transcends individuality ... Their collective consciousness ... Its dark side is this swelling ocean"

If the proportion of ensouled beings to the Idea of Evil's power is true, then he's losing hundreds of millions of souls that are powering its engine, as it were.

That doesn't take into account the Vortex of Souls.  I'll go out of order a bit in listing your quotes to address it below, as best I can:

Quote
The one thing I will confess that I don't fully grasp is the distinction that exists between souls and consciousness in the text. If the Idea of Evil's power is tied to all the souls that exist in the Abyss, then all of this train of thought is moot. But if the Idea of Evil's power is proportional to consciousness or unconsciousness, then for me that entails that it only relates to ensouled humans in material reality and not metaphysical spaces.

That's because the soul itself hasn't been clearly defined in Berserk, and I don't really expect it to be. But for the purposes of what you're talking about above, the Vortex of Souls is a massive collective consciousness -- a soup consisting of malevolent souls. As Femto explains in Volume 3, when each was added, they retained their individuality for a brief time before their ego was absorbed into the mass consciousness, like a raindrop in an ocean.

Our conclusion was that it would be the chiefest of ironies that the God Hand, in their neurotic fixation on dominating material reality, would accidentally wipe out too many humans and "kill" their Master.

The God Hand are the executive arm of the Idea of Evil. It's in their name, and it's exactly how Flora describes them in Volume 24. Can you imagine the Idea of Evil going: "Whoops! killed myself."

If the Idea of Evil's power is tied to all the souls that exist in the Abyss

And there is a connection, as we've seen a number of times. Apostles allow "evil power" within them, tainting their souls and granting them power. When they die, that tainted soul is what the Vortex rises to the surface to take, and what's left is a regular human. Thus, you could argue that "evil power" comes from the Vortex. Furthermore, if you take Episode 83 into account, we see that the Vortex is the medium through which Femto fashions his new form. The souls swirl around him as Femto is created.

"Take within you the power of feelings this inner world is filled with, and change the physical field that is your body into a suitable shape."

It's true that according to the lost chapter episode, the IOE does not predate humanity

Not just the lost episode -- Void calls it the "god made by man" during the Eclipse.

Quote
apostles for example did not exist before the God Hand cycle, the evidence being that all of the corpses of the first eclipse don't show any signs of being torn apart, they were clearly not eaten alive like Femto's victims.

Though I agree with you, that's not reliable as evidence.  All that scenario proves is that those particular bodies weren't ripped apart -- not that there weren't other apostles elsewhere.

Quote
IOEs purpose is to give meaning to suffering, I think the way to defeat it is to rob it of its purpose, if mankind was no longer concerned with giving meaning to their suffering, then the IOE can no longer justify its existence. The question is though how to achieve it, though it is not a lofty goal considering the dramatic changes occurring on a world wide scale in Berserk.

That's a part of the human condition.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: jackson_hurley on November 06, 2016, 02:31:08 PM

IOEs purpose is to give meaning to suffering, I think the way to defeat it is to rob it of its purpose, if mankind was no longer concerned with giving meaning to their suffering, then the IOE can no longer justify its existence. The question is though how to achieve it, though it is not a lofty goal considering the dramatic changes occurring on a world wide scale in Berserk.


The way I see it and what in my opinion is wrong with that part is that the idea is born already. So even if humans should stop concerning themselves with reasons for suffering (which I think they will never stop thinking about that in any way), the idea would still be in existence. You can't unborn a baby when it's born.

I don't think it can go away as easy as the concept of ignore a god and it will kill it.

That's my two cent.  :guts:
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 07, 2016, 12:16:33 AM
Gonna open up a new topic of speculation.
How do you guys think guts is going to beat the Godhand?
Is he gonna beat the Godhand?
Personally I think Guts might have to resort to using a Beherit to gain more immense power and beat them to the ground  :guts: :femto:
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Delta Phi on November 07, 2016, 12:57:37 AM
Personally I think Guts might have to resort to using a Beherit to gain more immense power and beat them to the ground  :guts: :femto:

In what way?
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 07, 2016, 02:09:05 AM
Who knows, Guts might find another Crimson Beherit and knowing it might be the only way he could match Griffith's power, sacrifice Casca only to have her memory recently restored. A true heartbreak
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Delta Phi on November 07, 2016, 03:10:20 AM
Who knows, Guts might find another Crimson Beherit and knowing it might be the only way he could match Griffith's power, sacrifice Casca only to have her memory recently restored. A true heartbreak

Even if Guts found a crimson beherit, he'd be waiting another 200+ years for an Eclipse ceremony. Becoming an apostle or God Hand probably wouldn't work either, considering the being that bequeaths those abilities is also the one that manipulated Griffith into power to begin with. Of course we don't know all (or even many) of the rules that govern the God Hand, but the solution you suggest seems very unlikely, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: The Warrior-Prophet on November 07, 2016, 03:29:31 AM
If material reality is the most maximally objective level of existence—because that's the only way that causality/determinism can work—and the God Hand are those who cheat and cheat and cheat to game the system to their designs and that of the Idea of Evil, then who has written the rules that constrain the God Hand/Idea of Evil? Who has ordained that 216 years is the limit for God Hand apotheosis?—or 1000 years for an incarnation? Perhaps the merging of the worlds has led to a rupture in the ontological framework. Maybe the rules have been rewritten? Just spit-balling. Don't actually think that Guts will become a demon to fight demons.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 07, 2016, 12:47:00 PM
I knew it was unlikely for Guts to find another Crimson Beherit, however it could be likely that he could find a regular beherit like the one he already has to gain some power. Will it be enough? Probably not. Will the Godhand even let him use the Beherit? Probably not, unless they REALLY wanna see Guts and Griffith fight each other. What's probably gonna happen is that Guts and co would probably have to find a way to cut the Godhand connection to the Idea of Evil or like the physical world where they get all their power from. If he can do that, they'll be easy pickings
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 07, 2016, 01:46:01 PM
I knew it was unlikely for Guts to find another Crimson Beherit, however it could be likely that he could find a regular beherit like the one he already has to gain some power. Will it be enough? Probably not. Will the Godhand even let him use the Beherit? Probably not, unless they REALLY wanna see Guts and Griffith fight each other. What's probably gonna happen is that Guts and co would probably have to find a way to cut the Godhand connection to the Idea of Evil or like the physical world where they get all their power from. If he can do that, they'll be easy pickings

As an apostle, Ganishka physically could not oppose Griffith. That's because of the evil power within him resonating with Griffith, a member of the God Hand. If that sounds hokey to you, then consider that Guts becoming an apostle would be the end of the series. He'd have to give up his humanity, sacrificing Casca (double sacrificed?). That's a dead-end in terms of storytelling. There would be nothing left for him.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 07, 2016, 02:03:35 PM
You never know what kind of shit Miura wants to pull bro. Berserk either gonna have an ending like that: Guts giving up everything to destroy Griffith
Or
A happy ending for guts, defeating Griffith without having to sacrifice anyone
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 07, 2016, 02:30:33 PM
You never know what kind of shit Miura wants to pull bro. Berserk either gonna have an ending like that: Guts giving up everything to destroy Griffith
Or
A happy ending for guts, defeating Griffith without having to sacrifice anyone

Bro, just so you know, in a 2002 interview, Miura said he would like Guts to remain human.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 07, 2016, 03:02:22 PM
There ya go, looks like Guts gotta find a way to cut off the Godhand's power then
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: DANGERDOOOOM on November 07, 2016, 09:33:10 PM
Will the Godhand even let him use the Beherit? Probably not, unless they REALLY wanna see Guts and Griffith fight each other.

Slan egged (no pun intended) Guts on during their encounter to use the beherit in volume 26.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Xenon on November 08, 2016, 12:09:06 AM
The Godhand are basically invincible now, but maybe the world spiral tree can be used to cut off their connection to the IOE and bring them down to the level of a strong apostle. That way guts and his crew could defeat them without having to renounce their humanity.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 08, 2016, 12:32:07 AM
That quote from slan is the sole reason why I started this whole conversation about Guts using a beherit
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Delta Phi on November 08, 2016, 03:01:16 AM
The Godhand are basically invincible now

You think so? Assuming they truly have gained a physical body (I'm only skeptical since we haven't actually seen them since the Blast), I would say that makes them much more vulnerable than they were before.

That quote from slan is the sole reason why I started this whole conversation about Guts using a beherit

I wouldn't read too much into it. While Slan seems to have an interest in Guts, and twice she's mused about him becoming an apostle, the confrontation in the Qliphoth seems to be entirely about evoking visceral emotions out of Guts. She taunts him and even intentionally goads him into impaling her. In fact, I'd argue Slan may be more interested in the raw emotions Guts exhibits than the man himself.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: The Warrior-Prophet on November 08, 2016, 03:22:54 AM
The God Hand would presumably have less power over controlling the causal web of existence after the Blast. Material reality is the most objective layer of existence in which substance denies desire—you can stare at a door all day willing it to open but it won't budge. But the higher you go on the layers the more substance conforms to desire and the less objective reality is. So the God Hand would be more powerful in a micro sense, but they would be less powerful in a macro sense by having less power over all causality.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Sancho on November 08, 2016, 07:02:03 AM
Gonna open up a new topic of speculation.
How do you guys think guts is going to beat the Godhand?
Is he gonna beat the Godhand?
Personally I think Guts might have to resort to using a Beherit to gain more immense power and beat them to the ground  :guts: :femto:

In my opinion Guts losing his humanity would kill his awesome characterization. Even if that will allow him to defeat his sworn enemies, it would be tantamount to an utter moral defeat for him. I think it would be even a better ending him dying that gaining power like that.

The God Hand is not so invincible as it may appears, there is a flaw in their plan, that has been exposed when Guts and Casca survived at the tower of Conviction, and that is Femto's emotions in his new body towards Guts and Casca, parents of the demon child. I believe that this flaw will make Femto do a bad decision for their sake in a certain crucial point of the IoE plan, messing up everything, just like Griffith's weakness for Guts made him do that terrible mistake of sneaking in the royal palace and seducing Charlotte.
Still i don't think the IoE will be destroyed at all.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 08, 2016, 01:20:42 PM
I also agree with your statement that Slan is interested more with Guts' mind, emotions, psychology, etc than the physical side of Guts like his looks, body, physical feats, etc
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 08, 2016, 02:46:20 PM
That quote from slan is the sole reason why I started this whole conversation about Guts using a beherit

And it's something that is very often discussed. Here's something I wrote about it recently:

I don't think the series has ruled out a sacrifice using a Beherit. It's just unlikely to happen in the story, and wouldn't make a terrible amount of sense. For years I thought it strictly wasn't possible, because of Conrad's words in Vol 3. But then I noticed something about when God Hand talk are talking about Beherits and being ordained by causality.

I think what Conrad said had less to do with Guts being a sacrifice, and more to do with his relationship with the Beherit. Conrad said Guts wasn't "ordained" to be among them as an apostle during the Count's ceremony. But shortly afterwards, Guts ends up with a Beherit, which he's carried around ever since. Now, let's recall Ubik's words to Griffith in Volume 12: "From the moment you took possession of that crimson Beherit, you had the qualities to become a demon ... No, perhaps I should say that because you had those qualities, it fell into your hands."

Though these two dialogues are separated by almost 10 volumes worth of material, the thrust of this argument is reinforced by the repeated urgings from Slan (Vol 3, 26) and the specters (Vol 16), for Guts to use it. That could all be merely dramatic tension or a true threat. But if he ever took the offer, it would be a dead-end in terms of the story.

Let's apply that potential outcome to the two most obvious scenarios:

Guts takes the deal, however unlikely that sounds. This effectively ends the series. Guts is no longer a human, and the God Hand have influence over him, just like what happened when Ganishka faced Griffith in Vritannis. Thus, the conflict at the heart of the series would come to a swift and unsatisfying end.

Casca takes the deal. There'd be no saving her from that. Whether he can bring himself to kill her or not, Guts would be demoralized, and his consistent savior to relinquish the Beast's hold on him would be gone.

So... yeah, it's not something I like spending too much time debating. I'm a pragmatic guy, and hypotheticals aren't really my thing. Instead, as we've said here for years, I can't help but think that Miura has bigger plans for it than merely another apostle ceremony.

The God Hand would presumably have less power over controlling the causal web of existence after the Blast. Material reality is the most objective layer of existence in which substance denies desire—you can stare at a door all day willing it to open but it won't budge. But the higher you go on the layers the more substance conforms to desire and the less objective reality is. So the God Hand would be more powerful in a micro sense, but they would be less powerful in a macro sense by having less power over all causality.

That may have made some sense before the Blast. But after? We don't know the current makeup of the world. It's a huge variable. Besides, "controlling the causal web of existence" is not exactly what the God Hand do. We've seen them in action behind the scenes. They pull the strings on various large-scale world events (Conrad and the plague, Slan in the presence of the cultists, Femto likely responsible for the mass dream). The deeper level manipulations that I think you are referring to are part of the Idea of Evil's purview.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: The Warrior-Prophet on November 08, 2016, 09:01:11 PM
Sorry Walter, I'm not a mindreader—though that would be nice—and there is plenty of semantic content in what anyone communicates. Not sure specifically what 'that' you're referring to. Could you explicate a little bit more?

It's my own fault but I suppose I view the God Hand and Idea of Evil as metonymies of one another. In that, whatever actions the God Hand take are indistinguishable from what the Idea of Evil wills, and whatever the Idea of Evil wills is indistinguishable from what the God Hand enacts, because that is their nature. But I'll try to be more specific in the future.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 08, 2016, 09:45:34 PM
Sorry Walter, I'm not a mindreader—though that would be nice—and there is plenty of semantic content in what anyone communicates. Not sure specifically what 'that' you're referring to. Could you explicate a little bit more?

I was referring to the entire plan that you had offered ("The God Hand would presumably have less power over controlling the causal web of existence after the Blast"). You are relying on consistent rules between the astral and physical worlds -- rules that might not exist anymore, after the Blast. We don't know how the astral world works anymore.

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I view the God Hand and Idea of Evil as metonymies of one another...
whatever actions the God Hand take are indistinguishable from what the Idea of Evil wills, and whatever the Idea of Evil wills is indistinguishable from what the God Hand enacts

Well honestly we're both out of our depth if we're trying to pin down precisely what happens behind the scenes. That being said, the God Hand and the IoE certainly aren't on the same level, and taking Ep 83 into account, we know that they execute on completely different levels. To use your language, it's micro versus macro manipulation. The God Hand may be able to perform mass actions like the ones I described previously, but they aren't as deeply rooted in every human like the Idea of Evil is. It has manipulated bloodlines over centuries. By comparison, Conrad pushes rats around, Ubik can peer through time, and Slan bolsters passions. In the grand scheme, they're the janitors of Causality.

I also think it's a mistake to think of Causality as something that's changed on the fly. It's a massively complicated series of interconnected relationships set in motion more than a millennium ago. All human life has been preconditioned to lean in the direction of Causality's flow. That doesn't mean the IoE needs to actively yank the individual strings for each puppet.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 09, 2016, 01:32:36 AM
Walter I totally understand where you're coming from, but you just brought up something interesting.
What if Guts uses a crimson/ regular beherit to gain power to hopefully defeat Grififth. Of course that would mean that the Godhand would have supreme power over Guts, yes?
Guts was also supposed to die in the eclipse right? If not he would have surely been dead by all of the hungry demons that chase him relentlessly through the night.
It's also a miracle that Guts lived through his first time in the Berserker Armor, who knows how many pounds of blood he lost from that experience, surely no normal man could accomplish a feat such as that.
Berserk is a story of struggle and perseverance no matter what lays ahead of you. It would not surprise me at all if Guts fights and struggles (what Guts have been doing through the entire story) through their immense control and gain his own freedom. Then of course from there it's an uphill, losing battle that Guts has to fight to defeat all 5 of the Godhand, but isn't that what he's been doing all along?
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 09, 2016, 03:21:28 PM
What if Guts uses a crimson/ regular beherit to gain power to hopefully defeat Grififth.

Sacrificing Casca in the process? Is that really the road you think Guts will take? To gain a negligible amount of power? Guts is already extremely powerful, able to face Zodd as a human, and challenge Grunbeld as an apostle. I don't foresee him becoming much more powerful, myself.

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It's also a miracle that Guts lived through his first time in the Berserker Armor, who knows how many pounds of blood he lost from that experience, surely no normal man could accomplish a feat such as that.

Blood isn't measured in pounds. And his survival is because of Schierke's intervention, not a supernatural volume of blood flowing within him.

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Then of course from there it's an uphill, losing battle that Guts has to fight to defeat all 5 of the Godhand, but isn't that what he's been doing all along?

Nothing says that Guts will have to defeat all 5 God Hand members by himself.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 09, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
I totally didn't notice I measured blood in lbs lmao I meant liters.
Okay let me counter your points here
You never know what sort of circumstances Guts and Casca is gonna be in. Maybe she wants Guts to sacrifice her to beat the living fuck outta Griffith for all of the evil he has commited. You're right about Guts already having immense power as it is, but after he gets a power boost from a Beherit who knows what kind of havoc and carnage he may be capable of.
And I never said Guts had a supernatural supply of blood. What I was saying is something to support my original statement that Guts can break free of the control of the Godhand IF he were ever to be in that kind of situation. Listen if Guts can persevere through having his bones crushed and most of his blood supply ran dry and then kill a giant dragon whose skin is "harder to break through than diamond" then he can surely take on the Godhand by himself.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 09, 2016, 08:44:59 PM
You never know what sort of circumstances Guts and Casca is gonna be in. Maybe she wants Guts to sacrifice her to beat the living fuck outta Griffith for all of the evil he has commited. You're right about Guts already having immense power as it is, but after he gets a power boost from a Beherit who knows what kind of havoc and carnage he may be capable of.

You keep saying "you never know," but boy you are really insisting on this one distant outcome. In your version of things, he would gain power as an apostle but still contend with the natural disadvantage he'll have against the God Hand. And somehow that ends up being a net plus? Even then, he'd still have to deal with Femto's abilities, and we saw how that opposition worked in Volume 3. Femto just toyed with him. So you've given him one additional existential hurdle in his eventual fight with Femto, but he'd be "stronger."

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And I never said Guts had a supernatural supply of blood. What I was saying is something to support my original statement that Guts can break free of the control of the Godhand

It's not a matter of "control." The mere presence of Griffith was enough to bring Ganishka to his knees.  Ganishka physically couldn't oppose Griffith until he twice-transformed (and even then...). But you're saying that Guts is a real tough guy, and that wouldn't matter.

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Listen if Guts can persevere through having his bones crushed and most of his blood supply ran dry and then kill a giant dragon whose skin is "harder to break through than diamond" then he can surely take on the Godhand by himself.

Come on... I'm not denying Guts is an incredible guy, but you're misrepresenting things.

He had a few broken bones, but the armor drastically dulls his sense of pain. We don't know exactly how much blood he lost (this is a bizarre thing to continually bring up, btw), and I'll reiterate that had the fight continued, he very likely would have bled out, and Schierke indeed was the one who brought him back to his senses, saving his life. Finally, he didn't kill Grunbeld. Their fight ended when Flora intervened.

And yes, I do think Guts will eventually take on Femto himself. That's a given. But I certainly don't think he has to abandon his humanity, the series' message, and everything he stands for in order to do so.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 09, 2016, 11:25:58 PM
I'll try to keep it short and sweet this time.
Am I right or am I wrong about everyone not knowing what kind of situation Miura gonna think up, so Idek why you brought that up.
My end point is this:
Even if Guts became a demon/ apostle through the Beherit I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he said "Fuck you I'm still a human" so it's basically just a power boost for Guts to lessen the gap between him and Griffith.
And plus Guts went through A LOT more shit than volume 3 bro
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: jackson_hurley on November 10, 2016, 01:25:10 AM

And yes, I do think Guts will eventually take on Femto himself. That's a given. But I certainly don't think he has to abandon his humanity, the series' message, and everything he stands for in order to do so.

It's all about the barites, I'm sure they'll be usefull in the end. I hope we get more info on them.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 10, 2016, 03:11:58 AM
Am I right or am I wrong about everyone not knowing what kind of situation Miura gonna think up, so Idek why you brought that up.

I brought it up because I've provided about 4 good reasons why your outcome is extremely unlikely, but now all you're doing is laying your case on the basis of "YA NEVER KNOW, BRO."

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Even if Guts became a demon/ apostle through the Beherit I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he said "Fuck you I'm still a human" so it's basically just a power boost for Guts to lessen the gap between him and Griffith.

So he'd be an apostle in denial? Sounds really solid, bro.

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And plus Guts went through A LOT more shit than volume 3 bro

Well bro, I was specifically referring to the last time he and Femto faced off, and how he casually tossed Guts aside with his abilities.

It's all about the barites, I'm sure they'll be usefull in the end. I hope we get more info on them.

That's ... a little thin.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 10, 2016, 03:51:53 AM
This whole category is based off "ya never know bro" that's why it's called speculation.
I'm pretty confident I've laid out a pretty possible outcome/ way Guts could beat the Gohand singlehandedly
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: jackson_hurley on November 10, 2016, 04:19:06 AM

That's ... a little thin.

I know. But I'm not good at developping theories that much (you guys do it better anyway so reading yours is good enough for me). Besides I prefer to be surprised by the releases, I'm busy enough with my own project to develop. I'm still want know more.   :guts:
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Aazealh on November 10, 2016, 08:40:33 AM
This whole category is based off "ya never know bro" that's why it's called speculation.

No, it's called speculation because it's about envisioning future developments. But that doesn't mean you can ignore the story so far, its constraints, and what makes sense going forward based on what we know of the characters.

I'm pretty confident I've laid out a pretty possible outcome/ way Guts could beat the Gohand singlehandedly

Your confidence only shows how weak your understanding of the series is. There is zero chance that what you proposed will happen.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Sancho on November 10, 2016, 08:41:23 AM
Even if Guts became a demon/ apostle through the Beherit I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he said "Fuck you I'm still a human" so it's basically just a power boost for Guts to lessen the gap between him and Griffith.

I remember Conrad stating to the Count in vol 3 that in the process of becoming an apostle "a fracture will open in your heart into which evil will surge". And when Griffith became Femto the IoE said that the evil power comes from the negative thoughts of that inner world (the vortex). Thus, i think that when a human becomes an apostle or in general receive "evil power", his mind must become necessarly corrupted, there is no escape from that.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 10, 2016, 12:29:43 PM
I don't think I'm ignoring and don't understand the story.
I'm not saying that Guts would use a Beherit to gain power, all I'm trying to say here is that he could do it and still be himself and not be evil.
I am VERY aware how unlikely it is for Guts to do this, it was just something I thought was interesting after rereading what Slan said to Guts
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 10, 2016, 02:42:55 PM
I don't think I'm ignoring and don't understand the story.
...
I'm not saying that Guts would use a Beherit to gain power, all I'm trying to say here is that he could do it and still be himself and not be evil.

Bro, what you're proposing demonstrates that you don't have a firm grasp on how things work. Apostles are imbued with evil — their souls corrupted by the Vortex. Apostles aren't just really buff misunderstood people. They represent everything Guts stands against -- independent of the grudge he has against them. His power is his own. You're saying he should use evil power manifested from dooming loved ones to eternal damnation in order to bulk up. Does that sound like Guts to you...?

(http://www.skullknight.net/images/conrad-fissure.jpg)
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 10, 2016, 04:50:00 PM
You're acting like I'm supporting the argument of Guts using the beherit, all I'm saying is don't say that "Guts is never gonna use a Beherit bc that's against his morals" because there's a possibility that he just might. You guys are acting like it's impossible for Guts to do that. Imo it would be better for Guts to stay human and just go berserk and then beat the Godhand that way; but I'm also open to the fact that some crazy shit that could surpass the eclipse could happen, change Guts' view on everything and make him resort to doing that; even though that would be against the central message of the story it's still possible
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 10, 2016, 05:54:24 PM
You guys are acting like it's impossible for Guts to do that.

Bro, I outlined how it MAY be possible in a massive post. Then I laid out the reasons it's not only impractical for the story, but against the message of the series and Guts' character.

Are we done here?
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Aazealh on November 10, 2016, 06:03:12 PM
all I'm saying is don't say that "Guts is never gonna use a Beherit bc that's against his morals" because there's a possibility that he just might.

Guts will never use a beherit to become an apostle. This is no more a possibility than Rickert building a rocket and Guts using it to go to the moon. This whole conservation you guys have been having is a complete waste of time.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 10, 2016, 06:24:15 PM
Hey I ain't tryna start an argument with y'all just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on it. In my original post I also stated that guts could find a way to cut off their power so they would just be like any average being. Your thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Aazealh on November 10, 2016, 07:58:31 PM
In my original post I also stated that guts could find a way to cut off their power so they would just be like any average being. Your thoughts on that?

Members of the God Hand are transformed through a ceremony. It's not like they have a specific, continuously running power source that you can cut off and then they lose their strength. As far as we know, once they get the power, they keep it. That being said, there might be ways for them to be weakened (and then killed). We just don't know what that might be yet. It's quite possible we'll get some clues while the group is in Elfhelm though. The exception to this is Griffith. The boy (Guts & Casca's son) whose body he stole is almost guaranteed to be the key to his downfall.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Walter on November 10, 2016, 08:10:47 PM
Hey I ain't tryna start an argument with y'all just wanted to hear your guys thoughts on it. In my original post I also stated that guts could find a way to cut off their power so they would just be like any average being. Your thoughts on that?

There are of course many possibilities. But once again you aren't really considering how such a notion would be executed. If the God Hand are reduced to average people ... that would nix any potential for a satisfying confrontation. Ubik on the ground, flapping his little hands, unable to float anymore, while Guts walks over and just stabs him.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 11, 2016, 02:06:56 AM
If you guys want my honest to God opinion of what I think should happen/ want to happen its this:
To preserve the message of Guts keeping his humanity and not bow down to the temptations of the Beherit (which could happen but would be a load of horseshit with how the story is set up), he should just have a 5v1 battle with the Godhand with the berserker armor and any other thing Miura might give Guts to help him out. Like its his battle alone he shouldn't have anyone else helping him out. But I honestly think it's just gonna come down to Guts' rage being too much for them to handle (which is saying a lot after volume 3). He's gonna dig deep down inside and just let the Black Dog bowl and go berserk to beat the Godhand. I think it's how Guts should beat them after all the shit he went through.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Aazealh on November 11, 2016, 09:10:46 AM
To preserve the message of Guts keeping his humanity and not bow down to the temptations of the Beherit (which could happen but would be a load of horseshit with how the story is set up)

You know, even aside from everything else that makes it impossible, this would be the lamest thing ever. A travesty in every way.

he should just have a 5v1 battle with the Godhand with the berserker armor and any other thing Miura might give Guts to help him out. Like its his battle alone he shouldn't have anyone else helping him out. But I honestly think it's just gonna come down to Guts' rage being too much for them to handle (which is saying a lot after volume 3).

This is quite possibly the least likely scenario I've ever heard of. Members of the God Hand are masters of humanity's dark side. Rage is delectable to them. It's never going to be too much for them to handle. Beyond that, one member of the God Hand is already so powerful that everything Guts and his allies have got could not make a difference without a trump card, a way to greatly weaken him or her. To think Guts could, should or will take them on all at once is laughable, plain and simple. I can understand that it's your wet dream to see him triumph like that, but it's just not going to happen. If it were, it would have been done in volume 3. Victory against the God Hand will be complicated and require a lot of help, that's why we're up to volume 39 of the series.

the Black Dog

It's called the Beast of Darkness.
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Jajimufu on November 11, 2016, 12:40:57 PM
Idk if Guts will calmly fight them, you know what I mean; how isn't he gonna be raging when he faces them? And I know it's an unlikely situation, but in my eyes it will be the most satisfying. What will probably happen is like SK and maybe even zodd will help guts out with the godhand (maybe the Rpg crew too but I don't think they'll last too long in another dimension/ hell).
Title: Re: Potential way to destroy the Idea of Evil—and some musings about the Eschaton
Post by: Aazealh on November 11, 2016, 01:28:33 PM
Idk if Guts will calmly fight them, you know what I mean; how isn't he gonna be raging when he faces them?

Way to miss the point.

What will probably happen is like SK and maybe even zodd will help guts out with the godhand (maybe the Rpg crew too but I don't think they'll last too long in another dimension/ hell).

I take exception to you calling Guts' friends "the RPG crew". It's reductive and inaccurate as to what their role in the story actually is. Also what's that about other dimensions? Do you think there's environmental damage there? Theresia didn't look like she was wearing the Varia Suit in volume 3.

Anyway, looking at the last page of this thread, I think it has run its course (and veered severely off course from its original topic). I'm locking it.