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Berserk => Speculation Nation => Topic started by: Cytometric on July 24, 2018, 11:50:26 PM

Title: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Cytometric on July 24, 2018, 11:50:26 PM
Alright, letís start with Guts. Guts never wins in my opinion, he just survives. His whole theme is just surviving. Now the meta part. Japanese literature is all above us overcoming odds and winning against all odds. That plus the fact the author thinks the world of Berserk is emotion bore logic seems to dictate a happy ish ending. But we can all agree berserk is always different. That coupled with what the mistress said bout fate being a spiral and Gutsí philosophy changing since heís in a group. Thereís a lot of possibilities for an ending, but I just wanna hear your opinions on if it will be happy or most likely not. Thanks!
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Chileanguy on July 25, 2018, 04:00:01 AM
I think that the end of the story not all will be white or black, this mean, that the conclusion won't be completely happy or completely bad, but yes a light grey, I wait a lot of sad deaths for the end, but also I wait a good end for Guts and Casca, they deserve that, maybe  their destiny was tragic, in the normal world but the world in Berserk changed in Fantasia and I think that the union of dimensions affect the spiral of the destiny, Guts and Casca for the sole reason of staying alive, they alter the destiny or no?  (Hi, I'm new to the forum, my name is Javier and I'm 18, live in Chile, my native language is not English but I know a bit, I'm getting used to its forum rules so if I have any errors or missing Do not hesitate to tell me, I hope I can integrate well and have a good relationship with you guys :) ) :serpico:
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 25, 2018, 10:25:50 AM
Alright, letís start with Guts. Guts never wins in my opinion, he just survives. His whole theme is just surviving.

Guts has definitely won many of the fights he's been a part of. Besides, when you're fighting to the death or facing deadly obstacles, surviving is an integral part of victory.

Japanese literature is all above us overcoming odds and winning against all odds.

Uhhhhhhh I don't think that's a good description of Japanese literature.

the fact the author thinks the world of Berserk is emotion bore

I don't understand this sentence.

logic seems to dictate a happy ish ending.

Nothing dictates anything. However Berserk is the story of Guts, and Guts does tend to triumph against adversity. Furthermore, it would be bad storytelling for Berserk to last this long only to end badly for its protagonists. It is therefore likely they will triumph eventually, but it could be a bittersweet ending.

But we can all agree berserk is always different.

Berserk is a very unique work and is qualitatively unmatched, but it's not "always" different from everything else by nature.

That coupled with what the mistress said bout fate being a spiral

The buddhist concept Flora was talking about is more accurately described as causality than just fate. I also don't think that gives us any indication of what Berserk's ending will be like.

Thereís a lot of possibilities for an ending, but I just wanna hear your opinions on if it will be happy or most likely not. Thanks!

I think Guts and his friends will triumph, but it might come at a cost.
I also feel like I should mention to you, because it'll eventually come up, that Berserk's author, Kentarou Miura, declared in an interview over 15 years ago that Berserk's ending would not be pessimistic.

On a side note, since your main question seems to be about how the story will end, I don't think the title of your thread is accurate.

maybe  their destiny was tragic, in the normal world but the world in Berserk changed in Fantasia and I think that the union of dimensions affect the spiral of the destiny, Guts and Casca for the sole reason of staying alive, they alter the destiny or no?

Hello Javier and welcome to our community! So there's some inaccuracies in what you said above. Like I told Cytometric, there's no "spiral of destiny", instead what Flora tells the Skull Knight is that causality, the principle of a cause having an effect, is not a circle but a spiral. She says that in response to the Skull Knight saying it is causality that Guts should be given the Berserk's armor, something he once wore himself. And Flora objects to that line of thought because she does not think Guts and his friends are bound to follow the exact same path she and the Skull Knight did. You should be careful to not make this comment into something much bigger than it is, like what you did here.

Now putting that aside, you also seem to be mistaken about the "destiny" of Guts and Casca. There is no written fate in Berserk that would ensure someone would die because the heavens decided so. However Guts and Casca were caught in the machinations of the Idea of Evil and the God Hand, and that made it likely they would die. And yet they didn't, thanks to the intervention of the Skull Knight. One thing is sure however: since they were branded, they are bound to end up in the Vortex of Souls after they die. That hasn't changed with the advent of Fantasia as far as we know. As branded people, they are also prime targets for apostles and evil spirits, and that also hasn't changed.

Now, what is likely to happen in the story going forward is that Guts and Casca will rise up to face Femto (and perhaps the rest of the God Hand) and try to prevent their plans for succeeding. That won't be "just to stay alive", which they could do by not getting involved, but to save the world at large. Of course they will have other motivations for doing so (like trying to save their son), but survival won't be the main one. Lastly, they will also not "alter" causality in order to succeed. Rather they will be going against the flow of causality that is orchestrated by the Idea of Evil, the master of the God Hand.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: MrFlibble on July 25, 2018, 11:04:11 AM
It will likely be a resolution, but not the way Guts wants it. I think Miura already mentioned the meeting will be bittersweet. Perhaps either Casca or Moon boy will die. I'll be interested to see what hapens to the world at large too, will it snap back to normal, or will mankind have live in the astral world forever.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Bleac on July 25, 2018, 07:52:58 PM
Idea of Evil and the God Hand
Idea of Evil, the master of the God Hand.

I don't wanna seem like that irritating guy who screams "NOT CANON" everywhere, but I'm curious as to why you chose to acknowledge the Idea of Evil as a currently existing element in Berserk, despite Miura putting it aside, possibly not to approach it again.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: jackson_hurley on July 25, 2018, 08:35:30 PM
I don't wanna seem like that irritating guy who screams "NOT CANON" everywhere, but I'm curious as to why you chose to acknowledge the Idea of Evil as a currently existing element in Berserk, despite Miura putting it aside, possibly not to approach it again.

It's simple, ep82 still exist where we see Griffith meeting the Idea of Evil at the end of said episode. Then you have Flora talking about it indirectly at the mansion of the spirit tree. And then volume 17 contains 3 ťpisodes titled Shadow of Idea.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 25, 2018, 08:36:50 PM
I don't wanna seem like that irritating guy who screams "NOT CANON" everywhere, but I'm curious as to why you chose to acknowledge the Idea of Evil as a currently existing element in Berserk, despite Miura putting it aside, possibly not to approach it again.

The Idea of Evil is canon. It visually appears in episode 82 and is referenced later on in the series, notably in episodes 201 and 202. What Miura might not do is make it play an active role or flesh it out in detail, for example explaining how it was created, what its deep motivations are or how it uses its powers. But its existence is not in doubt and never was.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Bleac on July 26, 2018, 08:31:42 AM
The Idea of Evil is canon. It visually appears in episode 82 and is referenced later on in the series, notably in episodes 201 and 202. What Miura might not do is make it play an active role or flesh it out in detail, for example explaining how it was created, what its deep motivations are or how it uses its powers. But its existence is not in doubt and never was.

Hm, interesting, I've been believing that it's not considered an official thing in the fandom right now, since it's only vaguely referenced and Miura himself stated that he might never come back to it in the end. Even its "name" might be subject to change, so with something this shaky I thought it fair to conclude that it's not exactly relevant beyond the "Lost Episode" and fan speculation.

My bad, good to know it's a thing though. Depending on where you go on the Internet people will say it's not canon (anymore), but this is where the high level discussions are at, so I trust you guys know best. Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: MrFlibble on July 26, 2018, 11:00:09 AM
I don't wanna seem like that irritating guy who screams "NOT CANON" everywhere, but I'm curious as to why you chose to acknowledge the Idea of Evil as a currently existing element in Berserk, despite Miura putting it aside, possibly not to approach it again.

Because the IOE is still referred to within the story. Void calls it the "God born of man" Flora mentions a great entity that guides the fate of the behilits, Guts feels its prescence during Griffiths rebirth, even calling it by name.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: jackson_hurley on July 26, 2018, 11:07:59 AM
Guts feels its prescence during Griffiths rebirth, even calling it by name.

When was that part? I don't recall that moment. I recall griffith saying "God" at the end of the episode though.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 26, 2018, 12:00:07 PM
Guts feels its prescence during Griffiths rebirth, even calling it by name.

No such thing occurs.

When was that part? I don't recall that moment. I recall griffith saying "God" at the end of the episode though.

He's talking about Femto's incarnation, not about episode 82.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: jackson_hurley on July 26, 2018, 12:33:06 PM
He's talking about Femto's incarnation, not about episode 82.

Aaah okay yeah. It must be the scene where Guts is sliding down the tower just before is fight with Mozgus right? (the one that a page was remove).

Thx Aaz for the clarification. I've reread the entire thing not so long ago and was wondering if I missed out on something haha.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Walter on July 26, 2018, 01:25:53 PM
He's talking about Femto's incarnation, not about episode 82.
Aaah okay yeah. It must be the scene where Guts is sliding down the tower just before is fight with Mozgus right? (the one that a page was remove).

Nope. 

(http://www.skullknight.net/images/kami.png)

This little moment has absolutely nothing to do with the Idea of Evil or this discussion though.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: jackson_hurley on July 26, 2018, 01:28:22 PM
oh! I forgot that he says "God" in that part.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 26, 2018, 02:25:52 PM
Nope. 

(http://www.skullknight.net/images/kami.png)

This little moment has absolutely nothing to do with the Idea of Evil or this discussion though.

So here's a funny thing: this is a huge mistranslation by Dark Horse. In Japanese, that bubble only contains the hiragana "よ" (yo), a suffix that doesn't mean anything by itself. It can follow any number of words. So in English, the bubble should only contain an ellipsis.

(http://www.aazealh.net/Divers/Volume21_Yo.jpg)
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: jackson_hurley on July 26, 2018, 02:38:59 PM
Nice! This thread changed direction with nice tid-bit of info. I don't know why Dark Horse decided to do that instead of just leaving an ellipsis. Thank you again for that kind of knowledge. I would never have figured that out by myself.

God I love hanging around here. Always learning new stuff and differences about the japanese version and the english one.  :guts:
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Walter on July 27, 2018, 12:45:06 AM
So here's a funny thing: this is a huge mistranslation by Dark Horse. In Japanese, that bubble only contains the hiragana "よ" (yo), a suffix that doesn't mean anything by itself. It can follow any number of words. So in English, the bubble should only contain an ellipsis.

(http://skullknight.net/images/ganishka-doh.jpg)
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Sareth on July 27, 2018, 02:41:03 AM
Another strike against Derp Horse
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: no name on July 27, 2018, 12:43:02 PM
In the german version stands there ...!! is this good or bad?
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
In the german version stands there ...!! is this good or bad?

Can you reformulate to be clearer? I don't understand your question.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: no name on July 27, 2018, 01:31:23 PM
I want to know if this is a good translation. https://i.imgur.com/itEyHuq.jpg
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2018, 01:35:07 PM
I want to know if this is a good translation. https://i.imgur.com/itEyHuq.jpg

Yeah, it is.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Bleac on July 27, 2018, 02:30:57 PM
To be honest, I'm having a difficult time trying to understand the intention behind putting a Japanese particle after nothing. Is it trying  to convey  a sort  of  emphatic  silence, or suspense? Maybe it's a nuance only native speakers can figure out.

Even so, to get from this all the way to literally "God" is pretty ridiculous.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2018, 03:33:57 PM
Is it trying  to convey  a sort  of  emphatic  silence, or suspense?

Yeah.

Maybe it's a nuance only native speakers can figure out.

Just so you know, there are many hundreds of lines in Berserk that contain nuances only native speakers can understand.

Even so, to get from this all the way to literally "God" is pretty ridiculous.

Yeah. Interestingly, that error was first made here, on SK.net, in December 2000. Back then fan translations were done by people with relatively poor knowledge of Japanese, but they were better than nothing. So we can forgive Cronus (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2), who translated it, for making that mistake at the time. What's very strange is the fact Dark Horse somehow made the same improbable error eight years later while supposedly using a professional translator. I have no proof, but if I'm honest what immediately sprang to my mind was the fact they probably just looked at our older translations (which are still available online but really shouldn't be used as reference) (http://www.skullknight.net/translations/173trans.html) and based their version on that. Two of Dark Horse's editors have had accounts on our forum, and I personally saw one of them, Samantha Robertson (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=7808), looking at our translations through the logs around that time. They could even have been comforted in their decision by the fact the scanlations of the time (from "thehawks.org") translated it the same way... but that's because they were stealing our translations to begin with.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Bleac on July 27, 2018, 04:06:38 PM
Just so you know, there are many hundreds of lines in Berserk that contain nuances only native speakers can understand.

Yeah, that goes without saying, for pretty much any form of literature. The mother language will always hold an edge even on the most accurate translation. This case is just especially peculiar to me, that's why I mentioned it.

Two of Dark Horse's editors have had accounts on our forum, and I personally saw one of them, Samantha Robertson (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=7808), looking at our translations through the logs around that time. They could even have been comforted in their decision by the fact the scanlations of the time (from "thehawks.org") translated it the same way... but that's because they were stealing our translations to begin with.

If your suspicion is true, then that's extremely unprofessional on their part. I can't say I hate Dark Horse, but Berserk could definitely use another publisher for the English speakers. Btw Aazealh, do you own the French volumes? If so, how are they in comparison?
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2018, 04:22:18 PM
I can't say I hate Dark Horse, but Berserk could definitely use another publisher for the English speakers.

Honestly, I really would just like for them (or any other publisher) to invest enough money into getting a good translation done. It's not like it would ruin them either. The problem is that translating manga doesn't pay well at all, so (surprise) it's rare that the job is done well. Of course, even then this particular mistake is quite glaring.

Btw Aazealh, do you own the French volumes? If so, how are they in comparison?

Sorry, I don't. My understanding is that the French translation is pretty bad.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: MrFlibble on July 27, 2018, 08:56:27 PM
So here's a funny thing: this is a huge mistranslation by Dark Horse. In Japanese, that bubble only contains the hiragana "よ" (yo), a suffix that doesn't mean anything by itself. It can follow any number of words. So in English, the bubble should only contain an ellipsis.

(http://www.aazealh.net/Divers/Volume21_Yo.jpg)
 

Where do you get the japanese scans from?
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 27, 2018, 09:14:00 PM
Where do you get the japanese scans from?

https://www.hakusensha-e.net/top?id=1226 (https://www.hakusensha-e.net/top?id=1226)
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Griffith on July 28, 2018, 04:46:33 AM
Yeah. Interestingly, that error was first made here, on SK.net, in December 2000. Back then fan translations were done by people with relatively poor knowledge of Japanese, but they were better than nothing. So we can forgive Cronus (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2), who translated it, for making that mistake at the time. What's very strange is the fact Dark Horse somehow made the same improbable error eight years later while supposedly using a professional translator. I have no proof, but if I'm honest what immediately sprang to my mind was the fact they probably just looked at our older translations (which are still available online but really shouldn't be used as reference) (http://www.skullknight.net/translations/173trans.html) and based their version on that. Two of Dark Horse's editors have had accounts on our forum, and I personally saw one of them, Samantha Robertson (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=7808), looking at our translations through the logs around that time. They could even have been comforted in their decision by the fact the scanlations of the time (from "thehawks.org") translated it the same way... but that's because they were stealing our translations to begin with.

On the bright side, Cronus, among others, can lay claim to an official translation of Berserk! :carcus: Errors or no, it's a pretty cool feather in one's cap to end up contributing somehow to a work of which you're a fan. I'm going to check if the one translation I helped localize with my friend Aiko ended up word for word in a Dark Horse volume and you can all refer to me as Griffith, Berserk Co-Author! :griffnotevil:

Speaking of translations, mistranslations, canon, non-canon, and hundreds or thousands of nuances only native speakers can understand... this thread sure highlights that there's been a lot of misconceptions about Berserk over the years that calcify into this sort of weird apocrypha surrounding the series ("this character said this incidental thing, which I'm misconstruing into a big picture concept!" and i'm certainly guilty of this a few times over =) Phrases, concepts and theories borne out of misunderstandings that are complete bullshit and yet are like their own language when discussing Berserk. I mean, how Guts name is spelled was still in dispute, albeit not legitimately, not too many years ago! I think my favorite misconception now is the Idea of Evil no longer being canon because of the irony of anecdotally de-canonizing something legitimate with all the false stuff out there people still adhere to. Anyway, very interesting as usual.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: MrFlibble on July 28, 2018, 07:19:07 AM
https://www.hakusensha-e.net/top?id=1226 (https://www.hakusensha-e.net/top?id=1226)

Do they sell digital volumes?
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 28, 2018, 10:02:27 AM
Do they sell digital volumes?

That store only sells digital magazines and volumes, and the link I provided lists all Berserk volumes.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Cytometric on July 31, 2018, 06:27:00 AM
Wow this forum has had a lot of discussion. Thanks guy so!
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: MrFlibble on July 31, 2018, 07:08:52 AM
On the bright side there are legitamate online translations of Berserk now, so DH won't get away with improvised translations.

I'm looking forward to how they retroactively justify getting Danan's gender wrong.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: Aazealh on July 31, 2018, 09:45:40 AM
On the bright side there are legitamate online translations of Berserk now, so DH won't get away with improvised translations.

I'm looking forward to how they retroactively justify getting Danan's gender wrong.

Dark Horse's monstrous failure isn't that they got the gender wrong, it's the fact they didn't translate the name and just kept it in rōmaji. That was insane.
Translating "花吹雪く王" as "King of the Flower Storm" isn't incorrect, and I think Miura clearly meant to surprise the reader regarding Danan's gender. However Dark Horse chose to half-translate it as "Hanafubuku King", which is meaningless and bafflingly stupid. It's like calling Guts the "Black Kenshi" instead of "Black Swordsman", or Griffith the "Hirakino Falcon" instead of the "Falcon of Light".

And once again, I feel I have to point out that in doing so they seemed to mindlessly reproduce an error that originated here (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2905.msg57902#msg57902). When episode 237 originally came out, Puella immediately proposed the proper translation for the name (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2874.msg57873#msg57873): "King of the Flower Storm" (which we ultimately revised as "Sovereign of the Flower Storm" after learning of Danan's gender). But Saiki (http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=539), who was among those of our members that provided translations for us at the time, wasn't happy with it... but also didn't know how to translate it otherwise. So he left it as "Hanafubuku King" while saying he couldn't think of something proper (he never spent too long on his translations...). In turn, that translation ended up being stolen and used in scanlations. And I guess that inspired Dark Horse to follow suit?

But we knew all along what the proper translation was... And while it's Ok for people on the Internet to be wrong, it's unforgivable for a professional edition to contain that sort of gross mistake.
Title: Re: I wanna hear some meta theory discussion
Post by: SleepersWake on August 15, 2018, 12:19:46 AM
Wow... I've half a mind to go in with a bottle of white-out and a pen and just copy all of puella's translations over top of the Dark Horse versions. Would look kind of ugly, and the sheer volume of whiteout might turn my room into a chemical hazard, but I'd know I had reasonable translations!