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Berserk => Current Episodes => Topic started by: Aazealh on May 23, 2005, 08:17:48 AM

Title: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 23, 2005, 08:17:48 AM
Title: 決闘 - Duel (http://www.younganimal.com/berserk/sp/05v11.html)

(http://www.younganimal.com/berserk/sp/img/05v11.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Walter on May 23, 2005, 08:28:06 AM
Duel interference. Fog loses 10 yards.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 23, 2005, 09:20:43 AM
Title: 決闘 - Duel (http://www.younganimal.com/berserk/sp/05v11.html)
Judging by the title it should last for the most part of the episode- at least. Perhaps near the very end of the episode they would stop for one reason or another, or not.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Headless Death on May 23, 2005, 11:03:59 AM
Anticipation is killing me for this episode. :)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Uriel on May 23, 2005, 11:14:33 AM
Yay. It feels like forever ago since this battle started...

(http://img197.echo.cx/img197/1219/waitingwaiting8gq.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Freddy C on May 23, 2005, 12:52:19 PM
Hell, yea, can't wait.

But I just know there's going to be a cliffhanger at the end of this, or some stupid "thing" stopping the battle before it ends.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Judo on May 23, 2005, 01:22:19 PM
Quote
Perhaps near the very end of the episode they would stop for one reason or another, or not.
that's one hell of a prediction, dude  ;D

well, not much to conclude from the preview-pic, as ever.
seems like the fog is already entering the fighting-place... our two duelists have to hurry up if they want to find a victor before the monster-attack starts.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 23, 2005, 01:38:23 PM
Duel interference. Fog loses 10 yards.

That might just be the testosterone filling the room. ;D

No, seriously.

Yay. It feels like forever ago since this battle started...

(http://img197.echo.cx/img197/1219/waitingwaiting8gq.jpg)

Thank you. :)

that's one hell of a prediction, dude† ;D

Hey, give him a break, I think we're all a little rusty. I was actually somewhat blown away by this preview and Zech's subsequent speculation (did I just call him "Zech"? =).

Anyway, yeah, I'm impressed that it's not just Guts' and Serp looking at eachother (like Uriel's picture) or Schierke doing her Marge Simpson impression ("mmmmmm") and her "=|" face. Moreover, it even shows that Serpico's already in over his head early, or at least the intensity at which this fights going to be at; pretty impressive for a preview.

-Griff

P.S. I wonder if Serpico can take contact from the DS if it's slowed down enough by a pillar, you know, just bruise/break his ribs rather then flying apart into two lumps of meat. =)

Yeah, pillars, good plan, guy. Though, I still expect him to hold up his end of the duel, even if it's a losing end.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: DefaultJ!! on May 23, 2005, 03:23:16 PM
looks to me like bad news for Serpico. Perhaps thats not Ganishka Fogtm, but dust and debris from the pillar Guts is seen busting apart at the end of 255?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Walter on May 23, 2005, 03:53:29 PM
looks to me like bad news for Serpico. Perhaps thats not Ganishka Fogtm, but dust and debris from the pillar Guts is seen busting apart at the end of 255?
Could be a lot of things, It looks like Miura's typical "special effect" glow (See moonlight child and even Griff's lightshow in episode 195).  But since there's at least a good chance of it being fog, my money is down.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Rhombaad on May 23, 2005, 03:54:49 PM
Can't wait for this episode! ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: roberto999 on May 23, 2005, 04:29:36 PM
Ah ah the pillar has stopped Guts strike this time. Wonder if he will be able to free Dragonslayer before Serpico...


Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: rick on May 23, 2005, 07:24:21 PM
I hope the Dragon Slayer cuts his hand off...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Headless Death on May 23, 2005, 08:00:37 PM
I hope the Dragon Slayer cuts his hand off...
Then we will have two people with metal hands. :o
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Rickert on May 23, 2005, 08:29:46 PM
however, it's gonna be one hell of a episode!!!!

It's gonna be an interesting battle, that's for sho(w)!
(seeying the preview pic, Serpico has to be faster than ever dodging that slash of guts, in the position he is now--)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Sanguinius on May 23, 2005, 09:47:49 PM
He definitely will need to be fast but I don't think either of them are going to get any serious injuries and I would bet it being Ganishka Fog.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Graywords on May 24, 2005, 06:32:52 AM
I'm wondering if the Young Animal site's handy translation of the title ("DUEL") is going to be a recurring thing... they've never been so nice to us Yanks before!† ;D

Knowing our luck, it's probably a one-time thing ('cause they thought the English would sound "cool").† †:-[
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 24, 2005, 10:09:57 AM
I'm wondering if the Young Animal site's handy translation of the title ("DUEL") is going to be a recurring thing... they've never been so nice to us Yanks before!  ;D

I've actually been wondering myself, like "wow maybe they noticed fans from all around the world were checking the previews? :o". I'm not getting my hopes up though.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: scroto on May 24, 2005, 10:53:40 AM
Sweetness :D
I for one am hoping that the whole episode be dedicated to the Guts VS Serpico fight. I think however that it will get interupted by something at the ball, or the fog, or Puck talking about something. Oh well...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Tell Me Why on May 24, 2005, 08:48:06 PM
I hope Guts goes Berserk and kills Serpico. I never liked that rat bastard.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on May 25, 2005, 06:53:04 AM
Seriously if that pillars which it WILL... Serp is gonna slash into 2...



It has been a long time since we have a one-one battle between 2 great characters...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: poodeta on May 25, 2005, 04:28:34 PM
i know it's a bit off from what you guys were talkin about but whatever happened to azan???
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 25, 2005, 05:08:49 PM
whatever happened to azan???

We don't know... He stole bread and ate it, that's all I can tell you. He'll probably appear again "soon".
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: poodeta on May 25, 2005, 05:12:26 PM
We don't know... He stole bread and ate it, that's all I can tell you. He'll probably appear again "soon".
would be funny if he was sleepin against one of those pillars or somthin ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Some Guy on May 25, 2005, 05:52:16 PM
I've been waiting a while for this!
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Vaxillus on May 25, 2005, 08:49:59 PM
Sweetness :D
I for one am hoping that the whole episode be dedicated to the Guts VS Serpico fight. I think however that it will get interupted by something at the ball, or the fog, or Puck talking about something. Oh well...
I just hope it's more than some Dragon Ball Z style gloating (and those gasps where every single character, living, dead, no matter how minor, gasps) and a few pillars getting cut in half, though as long as Miura keeps up with his usual standard, I doubt I'll be disapointed.  It would be nice to see it resolved by the end of the episode, whether or not that ends in a deathm
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Walter on May 25, 2005, 09:25:03 PM
I just hope it's more than some Dragon Ball Z style gloating (and those gasps where every single character, living, dead, no matter how minor, gasps) and a few pillars getting cut in half...
Has Miura dissapointed us with fights in the past?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: dwarfkicker on May 25, 2005, 11:44:34 PM
This is supposed to be the last chapter of vol 29.  I don't think there battle will go past this chapter.  I think the war will start.  Or at least the Kushans will launch their attack and catch everyone off guard.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 26, 2005, 12:06:44 AM
Miura's ended volumes in the middle of action plenty of times before (he'll do it anyway in this case, duel end or not), so I don't think that's an indicator.

Though, I don't think Guts and Serpico have 20 pages of moves to use on each other like Guts and Zodd do, but there's plenty of other story elements for Miura to cover if he wants to extend the conclusion of duel into the next chapter. STREEEEEEEEEEETCH IT OUT. =)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Vaxillus on May 26, 2005, 12:11:25 AM
Has Miura dissapointed us with fights in the past?
No, but I never pass up an apportunity to bash Dragon Ball, and affirm its inferiority to other comics.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on May 26, 2005, 01:24:33 AM
No, but I never pass up an apportunity to bash Dragon Ball, and affirm its inferiority to other comics.
You view DB/DBZ like this because of its American bastardization... It is still quite popular in Japan.  ;)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Opie on May 26, 2005, 04:02:34 AM
I hope we get another one of Miuras awsome technical/realistic duels out of this. He's just to good at them it's a shame we only get these kind of fights here and there anymore.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Uriel on May 26, 2005, 03:24:15 PM
Mmm, you're right. Guts has no technique to his fighting and Berserk takes place in a realistic world... I'm sending Miura hate mail!!
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Rhombaad on May 26, 2005, 04:38:43 PM
I'm really hoping their fight lasts longer than this next chapter, although the one-on-one battles have usually only lasted about two chapters recently.  Of course, if Serpico manages to somehow bring out the Beast in Guts then it might last longer. *keeps fingers crossed* ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Shinryuu on May 26, 2005, 06:02:39 PM
I'm hoping Guts will soon encounter one of the more powerful foes he has not met before... either Rakshas or Locus.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Opie on May 26, 2005, 07:35:39 PM
I mean the plotted out-move-by-move duels Guts used to have with other swordsmen baby, don't be hatn'.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Walter on May 26, 2005, 08:32:02 PM
256 ? (http://virtualhentai.alexandria.com.pt/berserk/255/01.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on May 26, 2005, 08:39:18 PM
256 ? (http://virtualhentai.alexandria.com.pt/berserk/255/01.jpg)

Your mean  >:(
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Rhombaad on May 26, 2005, 10:58:04 PM
256 ? (http://virtualhentai.alexandria.com.pt/berserk/255/01.jpg)
YES!!!! ....Wait a minute >:(
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Wereallmad on May 27, 2005, 06:42:11 AM
Your mean  >:(

I was more dissapointed that when I edited the url there were no cartoon chicks getting raped.

edit: hey, didn't I used to have an avatar?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on May 27, 2005, 06:50:11 AM
I was more dissapointed that when I edited the url there were no cartoon chicks getting raped.

edit: hey, didn't I used to have an avatar?
That would have been interesting.. I got up before I had to go to work and saw this so I was happy... but then I was sad  =( also, thanks to who ever put this as my new Avatar  ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Nomad on May 27, 2005, 06:57:11 AM
edit: hey, didn't I used to have an avatar?
   Same thing happened with my account, my guess was that it has something to do with the update made by the admins... But then again, what do I know. 

  Walter...You tease... 8)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 27, 2005, 09:42:14 AM
hey, didn't I used to have an avatar?

Fixed.

thanks to who ever put this as my new Avatar  ;D

You're welcome.

Same thing happened with my account, my guess was that it has something to do with the update made by the admins... But then again, what do I know.

Reading the thread (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=4512.msg92075#msg92075) I made about it might help, don't you think? Especially the last part.

The old avatars can be found in /avatars/old/, they kept the same names. They're easily accessible from the Profile Information menu, and you can find a list at: http://www.skullknight.net/avatars/oldavatars.html (http://www.skullknight.net/avatars/oldavatars.html).


Anyway, on to more serious matters:

The duel goes pretty much as I had imagined, still no fog inside the building. Guts tries to prevent the Beast from coming out, and Serpico actually seems to fear that Guts would kill Farnese during one of the "Beast sessions". Most of the (plausible) stuff people speculated about happens (not being precise so you guys will discover it yourselves), and it doesn't look like Serpico enjoys himself, even though Guts is clearly disadvantaged on top of being wounded (he comments about how Guts reads his moves, and is basically a badass, as he expected). 8)

PS: Ah yeah, and the duel isn't interrupted yet.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 27, 2005, 10:06:50 AM
The duel goes pretty much as I had imagined, still no fog inside the building. Most of the (plausible) stuff people speculated about happens (not being precise so you guys will discover it yourselves), and it doesn't look like Serpico enjoys himself, even though Guts is clearly disadvantaged on top of being wounded (he comments about how Guts reads his moves, and is basically a badass, as he expected). 8)

PS: Ah yeah, and the duel isn't interrupted yet.

This is very good.
Thanks Aaz


Guts tries to prevent the Beast from coming out, and Serpico actually seems to fear that Guts would kill Farnese during one of the "Beast sessions".

So, in a way Serpico also helps train Guts to control the Beast while having to fight, is that right?

That kind of stuff was hinted in some Serpico's face morph after the Beast was stopped by the Moonchild, if I recall correctly.


P.S. About the duel Serpico also looks disadvantaged by Guts' armour-as it has been always this way.
He can aim only to the face and Guts can parry with every other part of himself. Serpico's striking power doesn't equal that of Guts of course but his skill is on the par I guess.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 27, 2005, 10:22:40 AM
So, in a way Serpico also helps train Guts to control the Beast while having to fight, is that right?

Well, not really, he's still trying to kill him. ;D I see what you mean but it doesn't look like Guts can actually "train" to resist it at the moment, Slan's wound and the rest make it almost impossible, and Serpico just tries to kill him, it's not a test or anything. The "in a way" would be a really twisted way.

Anyway, we learn more about Serpico's inner feelings, he's got some kind of inferiority complex apparently, and seems to appreciate Guts a lot, him who fights against his environment and forge his own path instead of being passive and just adapting himself to whatever happens (like Serpico does).

I can't give you much more details for now, but the translation of that episode sure will be interesting (well, that's kind of obvious).

That kind of stuff was hinted in some Serpico's face morph after the Beast was stopped by the Moonchild, if I recall correctly.

Yeah, it definitely called for a reaction of some sort.

About the duel Serpico also looks disadvantaged by Guts' armour-as it has been always this way.
He can aim only to the face and Guts can parry with every other part of himself.

Yeah, and Isidro comments about him not having his magic equipment (feather sword and wind cloak).
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: GoHF on May 27, 2005, 10:27:01 AM
Great episode!

PS: This was the first time for Undertaker-puck. right?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 27, 2005, 10:59:54 AM
Well, not really, he's still trying to kill him. ;D I see what you mean but it doesn't look like Guts can actually "train" to resist it at the moment, Slan's wound and the rest make it almost impossible, and Serpico just tries to kill him, it's not a test or anything. The "in a way" would be a really twisted way.

Yeah, I meant it like if it was kind of a real situation training. Like when Guts was training with those trees falling on himself and even worse. Not training by doing a safe excercise but a situation that is far more extreme, involving more instincts possible (survival, killer, etch).
After all the beast is a nasty one since Guts seems so far not able to dominate it. So training, it could seem that must be most close possible to that desperate or nasty situation.
Serpico actually threatens to kill him and all of the most active instincts of Guts merge on the surface, bringing Guts in a situation very close to confront with the beast.

As far as Slan's wound is considered, as Skullknight said before reaching Elfhelm they have a lot to face -not that Serpico knows about the wound, but he has allready seen the fight with Makara and surely thinks that there must be some more fights to follow if they are to go on in the end -after Farnese has the time she wants at the court that is  ;D .

It would be cool to see the beast merge on surface, but on the other hand seeing Guts going over there and managing to hold it back, its kinda more of a progress for Guts, a progress that he needs for going further on.


PS.

Anyway, we learn more about Serpico's inner feelings, he's got some kind of inferiority complex, and seems to appreciate Guts a lot, him who fights against his environment and forge his own path instead of being passive and just adapting himself to whatever happens (like Serpico does).

I want to be thinking that Serpico's character will gain more insight by members having considered him more of an ass or something.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 27, 2005, 12:01:26 PM
Yeah, I meant it like if it was kind of a real situation training.

Hmm, I don't really agree on your wording here but that's not a big deal I guess.

I want to be thinking that Serpico's character will gain more insight by members having considered him more of an ass or something.

Doubtful.

Anyway about what you said considering Guts' armor, it's funny because I was actually telling Walter a few days ago that I doubted Serpico to even be able to pierce it, and it appears that he indeed can't.

PS: This was the first time for Undertaker-puck. right?

Nope, he was also there in the last episode, wondering if he should prepare one or two coffins. ;)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: CnC on May 27, 2005, 12:23:42 PM
Has Miura dissapointed us with fights in the past?

...and he has yet to...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on May 27, 2005, 12:56:59 PM
Good stuff! Thanks Aaz!!!!   :-* :-* :-*

I somewhat agree with Xech about the whole  "training" thing but I don't think its intentional. More or less, Guts is just keeping it in check so he doesnt go ape shit and kill everyone on scene. Granted that is more then likely very obvious.

p.s. I hate being in Okinawa cause they always get the god damn Young Animal late cause the mainland has to ship it to this podunk area   >:(
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Rhombaad on May 27, 2005, 01:21:10 PM
Thanks Aazealh, really great chapter this week! ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Serpico on May 27, 2005, 01:29:18 PM
Ahhhh that was an awesome chapter. Exactly what I was expecting from Serpico. Maybe he will get a little more credit now  :) as a duelist at least. His manuevers were pretty amazing.

Can never get enough of Miura's action sequences. So good.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Judo on May 27, 2005, 01:34:18 PM
Not much room for getting into the charakters without the text.
Well, judging by the pictures that take place in Serpicos mind, he is going through a very serious development during the fight. Guts himself seems rather tranquil for a life-or-death-duel with a former fellow.
I wonder what action Schierke ignites on page 16... or maybe she is just receiving Serpicos thoughts.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 27, 2005, 01:40:42 PM
I somewhat agree with Xech about the whole† "training" thing but I don't think its intentional. More or less, Guts is just keeping it in check so he doesnt go ape shit and kill everyone on scene. Granted that is more then likely very obvious.

There is insight and foresight in Serpico's spirit about it. Why not be intentional since he is the one that has put them in this situation?

Kinda, Serpico thinking: if you cant't control the beast while fighting and we are around we shouldn't go on travelling with you -it's too dangerous and I couldn't protect Farnese ever. Since we still don't know and we have to know the sooner the possible, we can only but try with fighting right now to see and get the best you can do about it.

Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on May 27, 2005, 02:13:06 PM
Simply Amazing really  :o

Guts swaping his arm at the very instance when Serp tried to attack, Using the DS not only to save himself from the falling brick but use it as an advantage to blockk and counter attack Serpico's surprise attack
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 27, 2005, 02:14:22 PM
I hate being in Okinawa cause they always get the god damn Young Animal late cause the mainland has to ship it to this podunk area   >:(

Well, you'd better find a way to get it though, there's cool stuff in it: a few phone cards will be distributed, and the "Collected Paintings of Berserk I" (out of 3) is featured as an appendix. It's composed of some of the illustrations Miura made himself for the TCG. (pictures: 01 (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Paintings01.jpg), 02 (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Paintings02.jpg), 03 (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Paintings03.jpg)).

Exactly what I was expecting from Serpico. Maybe he will get a little more credit now  :) as a duelist at least. His manuevers were pretty amazing.

Not that I don't like Serpico's manoeuvres or anything, but he definitely isn't on the winning side for now, and Puck has prepared a coffin with a "Pico" written on it. ;D

Well, judging by the pictures that take place in Serpicos mind, he is going through a very serious development during the fight.

He recognizes Guts' qualities, and acknowledge that not only Farnese changed during the journey but him also, and that he likes it in a way, that his mind was "paralysed" before that.

I wonder what action Schierke ignites on page 16... or maybe she is just receiving Serpicos thoughts.

She's just calling him and warning him that he can't hide behind the pillars anymore.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Uriel on May 27, 2005, 02:16:14 PM
Excellent chapter. I'm looking forward to reading the translations to go with the chapter. Was it worth the wait? The last page says "Yes!" ;)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: dwarfkicker on May 27, 2005, 02:43:25 PM
That chapter showed that Serpico has some serious skills.  But it also solidifies the fact that in combat, Guts is a total badass.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Serpico on May 27, 2005, 04:27:19 PM

Not that I don't like Serpico's manoeuvres or anything, but he definitely isn't on the winning side for now, and Puck has prepared a coffin with a "Pico" written on it. ;D


Ya, I'm not saying he's winning. I dont think he would win 95% of the time. I mean I think he has demonstrated he has a chance to win, which says alot to how skilled he is. Guts is my favorite but I usually prefer to root for Serpico since he is underestimated so much by comparison.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Wii wii wii on May 27, 2005, 05:36:54 PM
Ahhhh that was an awesome chapter. Exactly what I was expecting from Serpico. Maybe he will get a little more credit now† :) as a duelist at least. His manuevers were pretty amazing.

Can never get enough of Miura's action sequences. So good.
I'm actually looking at the fight more like it's showing that Guts has improved even more, because in his injured state and in a "arena" that gives him a disadvantage he is able to read Serpico's moves and still battle him on even terms.

The point where it felt like I was supposed to start really acknowledging Serpico's skill was definately when he and Guts battled on that ledge against the cliff-face.   

But in any case I agree, Miura's action sequences are second to none.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Some Guy on May 27, 2005, 06:34:32 PM
Guts so far has done a bit better than I expected given the fighting contitions. Guts has managed to perry all of Serpico's tricky tactics and was able to ward off an inkling of the beast (though maybe temporarily).  It looks like Serpico will have to dodge some debris Guts had deflected in his direction.

I look forward to the translation
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Opie on May 27, 2005, 06:58:37 PM
Serpicos jumping around just makes me want to see a Griffith vs Serpico show down once and for all.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: C on May 27, 2005, 07:19:22 PM
Excellent episode!

If Guts actually goes Berserk, he will turn into s buzzsaw and destroy the whole area!!!!!!!  :o

I hope Serpico sees that even though he is still alive, it has taken an injured Guts in a extreme disadvantage arena to keep him from being slaughtered. I can't wait for the translations myself! Superb I say!!  8)

 - C
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 27, 2005, 07:47:15 PM
Oh, Serpico knows.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Woland on May 27, 2005, 07:59:06 PM
Thanks for the episode Aazealh.

Serpico's a spry motherfucker ain't he.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Serpico on May 27, 2005, 08:13:09 PM
Serpicos jumping around just makes me want to see a Griffith vs Serpico show down once and for all.

Ya I really hope serpico survives to the end of the manga for that reason, so that that they might spar a bit before the main event. They both so that evil eye thing hehe, that would be great. Although Serpico would probably die to the new Griffith †:'(

To no one in particular:

To be fair, Serpico is naturally disadvantaged armor wise to Guts as well. Guts is still wearing a full suit of Godly armor, not to mention his metal hand is extremely usefull, while Serpico is pretty much naked since he needs to be mobile (not that armor would do any good against Guts, he will chop right through) Guts armor definitly helps him alot though while he can stay agile. Thats something Serpico just doesnt have.

If Serpico had the wind cloak I think that is more even, then he wouldnt need to rely on the pillars since he can jump and move much higher and faster. Guts is wearing a magical item that suits him, the wind cloak is the same thing for Serpico. I don't think Guts minds too much that Serpico uses all the tactics he can muster up, and I'd be suprised if Guts used anything other than his sword because he knows his full arsenal and power is way too much for Serpico.

Basically I would love to see them fight with Serpico in his cloak, but not the wind sword cause i dont like ranged attacks. Personally I feel it cant penetrate Guts sword or armor anyway. But fighting in the pillars provides for its own awesome and very entertaining feats.

Thanks for the episode Aazealh.

Serpico's a spry motherfucker ain't he.

Agreed on the spryness and the thanks  :)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Vaxillus on May 27, 2005, 09:25:52 PM
...and seems to appreciate Guts a lot, him who fights against his environment and forge his own path instead of being passive and just adapting himself to whatever happens (like Serpico does).
Get in line Serpico, get in line.

Awesome episode, thanks Aaz.

A coment on the armor, it seems to me as though cursed items/fetishes are not destroyable by mundane means.  It seems to me like it would take an item of similar caliber to even dent the armor.  I think that a duel between Guts and Serpico when he had his magic gear might not be as well ballanced, since Guts is injured and all and can't move fast.

What's also great is the fact that the next episode, assuming I read the date correctly, comes out in only two weeks.  Enough time to build suspense, but not so long as to let the suspense wear off.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 27, 2005, 10:09:54 PM
What's also great is the fact that the next episode, assuming I read the date correctly, comes out in only two weeks.  Enough time to build suspense, but not so long as to let the suspense wear off.

Yeah, it'll be out on June 10th. Two weeks is the normal delay though, Miura just took a lot of breaks recently.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: puella on May 28, 2005, 10:54:43 AM
257 short preview from YA:


That line is very close to what Guts says in episode 255 when accepting Serpico's duel though ("いいぜ"). Actually the line "いいぜ、受けてやる" fits into the scene very well. Plus, the sad thing is that Young Animal's previews are often unreliable.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 28, 2005, 11:06:43 AM
257 short preview from YA:

[li]A line in the next episode: "いいぜ、受けてやる"[/li]
I guess this line will be Guts'. It means "All right, (I'll) accept (you)".[/list]


So perhaps we'll have Azan in the group?!
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on May 28, 2005, 11:15:26 AM
I'm actually looking at the fight more like it's showing that Guts has improved even more, because in his injured state and in a "arena" that gives him a disadvantage he is able to read Serpico's moves and still battle him on even terms

Yes that what i am suspecting also, and he is really in bad shape... If Serp challenge him in his healthy condition, he head would have lost the very moment he squat down and attack his arm... (Do u guys realise Serpico head was so close to the edge of DS at the moment? Just a slight movement toward his direction will end everything...)

Ya I really hope serpico survives to the end of the manga for that reason, so that that they might spar a bit before the main event. They both so that evil eye thing hehe, that would be great. Although Serpico would probably die to the new Griffith  :'(


What he meant was old Griffith if i am not wrong... Serp would never never in his like stand a chance with the new Hawk leader... for old Griffith i have a feeling that Serp will defeat him should there be such chance... Of course i am not saying much otherwise it will spark a old debate that will never stop...

To no one in particular:
To be fair, Serpico is naturally disadvantaged armor wise to Guts as well. Guts is still wearing a full suit of Godly armor, not to mention his metal hand is extremely usefull, while Serpico is pretty much naked since he needs to be mobile (not that armor would do any good against Guts, he will chop right through) Guts armor definitly helps him alot though while he can stay agile. Thats something Serpico just doesnt have.

Come and think of it... Do you think by wearing armor would help much? If he could slash through 2 pillars in one blow what make you think an armour will do him good... Plus it does restrict his movement which he seriously need it to dodge Guts deadly attack... 



Just a comment... I feel quite sad for those Berserk fans who never see the scans before... The last episode of volume 29 will be cliffhanger and i am quite sure torment of waiting of vol 30 will kill them... 
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Serpico on May 28, 2005, 01:01:29 PM

Come and think of it... Do you think by wearing armor would help much? If he could slash through 2 pillars in one blow what make you think an armour will do him good... Plus it does restrict his movement which he seriously need it to dodge Guts deadly attack...†


I said exactly that in my post already Smith :P

Quote from: Serpico
Serpico is pretty much naked since he needs to be mobile (not that armor would do any good against Guts, he will chop right through)

My point was Guts Armor and fake hand helps him alot, while Serpico doesnt have that option since its too heavy for him. Guts armor is also magic to top that off, we know he actually had even more agility while wearing it. Overall this is a huge advantage for Guts.

Currently you might say the pillars ARE Serpico's armor. I think its fair enough.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: roberto999 on May 28, 2005, 04:46:16 PM
I agree with you Serpico. If this was a boxing match the round would go to Serpico
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 28, 2005, 06:11:45 PM
Well, time to dynamize the thread.

My point was Guts Armor and fake hand helps him alot, while Serpico doesnt have that option since its too heavy for him.

Haha, that's funny. So Guts has tons of advantages, but if Serpico had the same advantages than him, it would be disadvantages. In my book that just makes Guts stronger.

If this was a boxing match the round would go to Serpico

I think you guys need to come back to reality... Serpico is fighting a very weakened man, that can only stand because of a magical armor and has trouble keeping control of himself and thus must be wary not to get too much into the fight, yet is still fighting to death. That guy also can't wield his weapon without breaking thick pillars. ::)

Yet he dominates his enemy with ease, as you can judge by all the sweat covering Serpico's face, out-thinks his every trick and move, wound him, and is apparently going to smack his face with gravel. Serpico himself during the fight recognizes that his opponent is formidable, acknowledging the difference between them.

And now people are saying that having a fake forearm is helpful compared to having two functional hands, and that it greatly advantages Guts, as well as wearing armor (without it he couldn't even get out of bed for all we know, by the way), but that if Serpico wore armor it would disadvantage him.

Maybe Guts should fight naked with his feet tied and a wooden stick as his only weapon while people shoot arrows at him? Maybe that would be fair fighting? Don't mistake my point here guys, I appreciate Serpico's skills a lot as a fighter and a tactician, but Guts is just stronger, he's the hero, and in a boxing match the round would go to him by K.O.

These two guys have different fighting styles, and Serpico sure could use his cape and feather sword (though he doesn't seem to have fully mastered them yet, he made mistakes everytime he fought with them, and against Guts that would mean death), but he decided that he didn't need them when he gave them back to Schierke, and now he is in a situation that he put himself in... Whatever happens is a consequence of his own actions.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Woland on May 28, 2005, 06:57:16 PM
257 short preview from YA:

  • The first page will be colored.
  • A line in the next episode (?): "いいぜ、受けてやる"
  • I guess this line is Guts'. It means "All right, (I'll) accept (you)" or "(I'll) take it."

That line is very close to what Guts says in episode 255 when accepting Serpico's duel though ("いいぜ"). Actually the line "いいぜ、受けてやる" fits into the scene very well. Plus, the sad thing is that Young Animal's previews are often unreliable.

It almost sounds like they're hinting at the Beast, though I figure it's Guts accepting a truce for the moment.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 28, 2005, 06:58:09 PM
Well, time to dynamize the thread.

I think you guys need to come back to reality... Serpico is fighting a very weakened man, that can only stand because of a magical armor and has trouble keeping control of himself and thus must be wary not to get too much into the fight, yet is still fighting to death. That guy also can't wield his weapon without breaking thick pillars. ::)

That's funny too. How can a guy that breaks pillars, collapses a roof on himself coming out clean define him as weak? Is it domination of the pillars and out-thinking their every brick? Is it Guts the Masoner of the Interstice?

Guts is not weak for this "match". His magical armour cancels his weakness. There might be a price to pay in the end -as explained by Skullknight- but this is a different story.


That guy also can't wield his weapon without breaking thick pillars.

The pillars don't give Guts a disadvantage as he can strike through them - apart from the fact that he could be damaging the DS.
If Guts actually had the alternative offer to use a rapier instead I am pretty sure he wouldn't even think about it. For Guts DS is as good as ever. The thing about the pillars in the end is that Serpico can use them doing some cool maneuvers. †

Oh and let's not forget that Guts is in the interstice. Would he be able to use DS like that for sure if he weren't for a second?

Or maybe, if Serpico had been in the interstice first place he might be able to surf on his sword in the air or whatever.

Maybe Guts should fight naked with his feet tied and a wooden stick as his only weapon while people shoot arrows at him? Maybe that would be fair fighting? Don't mistake my point here guys, I appreciate Serpico's skills a lot as a fighter and a tactician, but Guts is just stronger, he's the hero, and in a boxing match the round would go to him by K.O.

It's true that Guts is stronger but Serpico is more agile. Why would Serpico let himself for sure be hit to KO in a boxing match with Guts? †

These two guys have different fighting styles, and Serpico sure could use his cape and feather sword (though he doesn't seem to have fully mastered them yet, he made mistakes everytime he fought with them, and against Guts that would mean death), but he decided that he didn't need them when he gave them back to Schierke, and now he is in a situation that he put himself in... Whatever happens is a consequence of his own actions.

Who said differently?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 28, 2005, 07:16:52 PM
How can a guy that breaks pillars, collapses a roof on himself coming out clean define him as weak? Is it domination of the pillars and out-thinking their every brick? Is it Guts the Masoner of the Interstice?

Are you stupid or just joking? ???

Guts is not weak for this "match". His magical armour cancels his weakness.

Weak and weakened aren't the same word. You might want to look the difference up a dictionary before posting. Also, his armor doesn't "cancel" his diminished state, it just prevents Guts from being totally unable to move. He's not nearly as strong right now as he would be if he was in full health and not wearing the armor.

The pillars don't give Guts a disadvantage as he can strike through them

Hmm, it seems that you are stupid. :-\

If Guts actually had the alternative to use a rapier I am pretty sure he wouldn't even think about it. For Guts DS is as good as ever.

That's not the point.

Oh and let's not forget that Guts is in the interstice. Would he be able to use DS like that for sure if he weren't for a second?

Yes, he would. It's not like being in the Interstice has any proven effect that you could use to assert whatever point you are trying to make anyway. Don't try to give me speculation as fact.

Or maybe, if Serpico had been in the interstice first place he might be able to surf on his sword in the air or whatever.

Ugh, please don't post if you have nothing to say, really... The dynamizing part was for a joke, you don't have to force yourself.

It's true that Guts is stronger but Serpico is more agile. Why would Serpico let himself for sure be hit to KO in a boxing match with Guts?

Serpico is agile enough considering his "bulk" (he's rather slim when compared to Guts), but he can't dodge Guts' hits, he's wounded, remember? Serpico would be K.O. because he's not as strong nor smart as Guts, as he himself states in this episode.

Who said differently?

I wasn't contradicting someone with that paragraph, merely explicating my previous statement that there's no point in trying to find redeeming features for Serpico having the lower hand in this fight.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Vaxillus on May 28, 2005, 07:31:20 PM
If I might venture to a few guesses
That's funny too. How can a guy that breaks pillars, collapses a roof on himself coming out clean define him as weak? Is it domination of the pillars and out-thinking their every brick? Is it Guts the Masoner of the Interstice?

Guts is not weak for this "match". His magical armour cancels his weakness. There might be a price to pay in the end -as explained by Skullknight- but this is a different story.
For Guts, he is in a very weakened state. †With the armor, he doesn't need to worry much, but he lost a lot of muscle mass while he was recovering from his first encounter with the armor. †What I think Aaz was saying is that in a pitched battle, with Guts in good condition and in a standard setting, guts would beat the crap out of Serpico with little trouble. †Even now, in his weakened state, he is still winning. †Serpico just can't stand up to him.

The pillars don't give Guts a disadvantage as he can strike through them - apart from the fact that he could be damaging the DS.
If Guts actually had the alternative offer to use a rapier instead I am pretty sure he wouldn't even think about it. For Guts DS is as good as ever. The thing about the pillars in the end is that Serpico can use them doing some cool maneuvers.
Um, let's just ignore the fact that the DS gets stiffly embedded in several of them during the fight. †Guts can slash through one or two before it gets stuck, but in the end he can't swing it as freely as he would normally. †As for damaging the DS, I don't think it can be damaged any more.

Oh and let's not forget that Guts is in the interstice. Would he be able to use DS like that for sure if he weren't for a second?
The interstice has nothing to do with Guts' strength, or if it does it is never mentioned. †Though it allows (forces) him to encounter ghosts, demons, fairies and the like, I doubt it affects his ability to wield the sword.

Or maybe, if Serpico had been in the interstice first place he might be able to surf on his sword in the air or whatever.
I hope you aren't serious †???

It's true that Guts is stronger but Serpico is more agile. Why would Serpico let himself for sure be hit to KO in a boxing match with Guts? †
Though this is a bit of a toss up, I think that Guts and Serp at least equal speed. †Agility is something else, since Guts is impared slightly be his armor (even then, most people barely notice when he runs by, since he's so fast) and his wounds, he probably can't jump off pillars like Serpico. †His parries and dodging seem to be about the same speed, otherwise he'd probably have a rapier through his head. †He would still be able to hit Serpico.

Edit:, Aaz beat me to the punch  :-\  K.O.!
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Serpico on May 28, 2005, 07:56:15 PM
Haha, that's funny. So Guts has tons of advantages, but if Serpico had the same advantages than him, it would be disadvantages. In my book that just makes Guts stronger.

Guts is stronger† :P thats what im saying. Its a natural advantage that gives him the ability to wear heavy armor easily. That makes 90% of his body completly protected from attacks. Also his armor is magical so he can move better than if he wasnt wearing any.

The Pillars are very similar for Serpico, in the aspect they protect him without hindering his movement (they even increase it in ways, like the armor)† So armor wise they have been even so far.

I don't think Serpico should be discredited much except that Guts is weak and holding back his full arsenal. I only think his hand is weak though quite frankly, since its not utilizing the armor to brace it.


As far as the boxing match thing, that is the reality that Serpico is winning. He landed about 4 blows on Guts (face, armor, metal hand), vs the 1 time Guts has hit him. Boxing is scored on points, unless there is a KO or TKO. Guts is a KO man though, we all know that, so Im not saying he is losing or something.

At the current point I feel Guts is winning, I also think Serpico is doing awesome though. Thats sums up my overall feeling about the fight, I think most all of us agree on that so no need to be too heated bout it. I'm obviously obligated to cheer for Serp though.

** excuse my use of bold text, its meant for clarification, Not to be/sound obnoxious
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 28, 2005, 08:10:53 PM
Guts is stronger  :P thats what im saying.

Well that's also what I'm saying. 8)

Its a natural advantage that gives him the ability to wear heavy armor easily.

Haha, so being stronger counts as an advantage? Then let's just say that being all-around better at everything is also an advantage, and we can call it a day.

That makes 90% of his body completly protected from attacks.

Well as I said, Serpico can go and wear an armor if he wants to, it's just the way you play the game, you can't hold that against Guts given the situation IMHO.

Also his armor is magical so he can move better than if he wasnt wearing any.

Nope. The Berserk's armor does two things: remove pain, remove fear. Guts becomes more agile and nimble when the Beast is in control, because he just doesn't care about anything anymore and relies on pure instinct/fighting prowess instead of skill and tactics.

He can fight despite his spiritual wound because the armor eases his pain (but doesn't make it completely disappear unless he goes all out in a fight as stated on the beach), but that doesn't give him abilities, if anything it's just something he could do before without knowing it, and that harms his body when he does.

I don't think Serpico should be discredited much except that Guts is weak and holding back his full arsenal.

Well, I think that's enough, don't you?

As far as the boxing match thing, that is the reality that Serpico is winning. He landed about 4 blows on Guts (face, armor, metal hand), vs the 1 time Guts has hit him. Boxing is scored on points, unless there is a KO or TKO. Guts is a KO man though, we all know that, so Im not saying he is losing or something.

Oh, so you guys were literally talking about boxing rules? My bad then, I didn't think of it that way... But I think that it's inappropriate though, considering the fact that Guts willingly lets Serpico hit the parts of his body that are protected, or deflect his blows to the armor without caring more than that.

I just don't think that comparison has much relevance to be honest... Now that's only my opinion, of course.

At the current point I feel Guts is winning, I also think Serpico is doing awesome though. Thats sums up my overall feeling about the fight, I think most all of us agree on that so no need to be too heated bout it.

Sure thing, I have no problem agreeing on that (some heated discussion is good every now and then though 8)).
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: guts on May 28, 2005, 08:13:09 PM
I totally agree with Aazealh, Guts is definitely in a disadvantages situation when he took on the duel against Serpico, with his health and what not. However Guts is just too much for Serpico to handle; honestly speaking, do Serpico stand a chance with any apostle without his magic feather, I doubt it. Guts, on the other hand was able to thrust those apostle's ass without any magic help, with that in mind, how could anyone state that Serpico might win.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Serpico on May 28, 2005, 08:29:42 PM
Sure thing, I have no problem agreeing on that (some heated discussion is good every now and then though 8)).

Agreed, but I probably stated most of my points by now, so I'll probably give it a rest till next episode's out, to spare us all from going in circles.

(unrelated: thanks for your hard work on the board) Everyone should say it once.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 28, 2005, 08:39:25 PM
Are you stupid or just joking? ???

Weak and weakened aren't the same word. You might want to look the difference up a dictionary before posting. Also, his armor doesn't "cancel" his diminished state, it just prevents Guts from being totally unable to move. He's not nearly as strong right now as he would be if he was in full health and not wearing the armor.

Hmm, it seems that you are stupid. :-\

That's not the point.

Yes, he would. It's not like being in the Interstice has any proven effect that you could use to assert whatever point you are trying to make anyway. Don't try to give me speculation as fact.

Ugh, please don't post if you have nothing to say, really... The dynamizing part was for a joke, you don't have to force yourself.

Serpico is agile enough considering his "bulk" (he's rather slim when compared to Guts), but he can't dodge Guts' hits, he's wounded, remember? Serpico would be K.O. because he's not as strong nor smart as Guts, as he himself states in this episode.

I wasn't contradicting someone with that paragraph, merely explicating my previous statement that there's no point in trying to find redeeming features for Serpico having the lower hand in this fight.

Me stupid, stupid. Yes, yes †:P

 Name it weak or weakened it's the same point we are talking about here mr Smart. We know that Guts's weak or weakened state is compansated by the armour's magical ability. While in Berserk armour, one can move at full maneuverability and even better ignoring physical limits - till he collapses from blood loss- we have seen and know this allready. Or is it you don't know?
 †
 And why can't Serpico dodge Guts strikes? He is dodging around every strike in this epsiode? And when did we say that Serpico should be considered wounded -what are you saying here?

 About Serpico's remarks I take them as Serpico's character would feel when facing a preplanned situation of his but while being there seeing that he doesn't "own" it that way in the end. We have seen this from his remarks even after his encounter with Guts at the cliff.
 Capture or kill Guts meant that he should be better. Encountering him and get away with it meant that he were on the par. Serpico thought he were better than Guts in that situation. Well he wasn't, this is true, and he find out too late for his plan.


If I might venture to a few guessesFor Guts, he is in a very weakened state. †With the armor, he doesn't need to worry much, but he lost a lot of muscle mass while he was recovering from his first encounter with the armor. †What I think Aaz was saying is that in a pitched battle, with Guts in good condition and in a standard setting, guts would beat the crap out of Serpico with little trouble. †Even now, in his weakened state, he is still winning. †Serpico just can't stand up to him.

Yes, Guts has lost some electrolytes he is fighting worse than before. No

The magic of Berserk armour stands to let you fight beyond limitations of the body. Even if you are weakened or at full health while in Berserk armour it doesn't change your fighting ability. The drowback is that you could eventually die from blood loss-or if you don't but go on using it you could lose your senses and whatever else Skullknight has told Guts about.


Um, let's just ignore the fact that the DS gets stiffly embedded in several of them during the fight. †Guts can slash through one or two before it gets stuck, but in the end he can't swing it as freely as he would normally.

I disagree. And eventually when there are no pillars ahead of DS Serpico is still dodging and parrying his way around.

As for damaging the DS, I don't think it can be damaged any more.
The interstice has nothing to do with Guts' strength, or if it does it is never mentioned. †Though it allows (forces) him to encounter ghosts, demons, fairies and the like, I doubt it affects his ability to wield the sword.

On the contrary, I think it affects his ability on the physical world. Since Flora and Schierke explained the interstice in the manga.


Though this is a bit of a toss up, I think that Guts and Serp at least equal speed. †Agility is something else, since Guts is impared slightly be his armor (even then, most people barely notice when he runs by, since he's so fast) and his wounds, he probably can't jump off pillars like Serpico. †His parries and dodging seem to be about the same speed, otherwise he'd probably have a rapier through his head. †He would still be able to hit Serpico.

Edit:, Aaz beat me to the punch †:-\ †K.O.!

Yes, I agree with this

I only think his hand is weak though quite frankly, since its not utilizing the armor to brace it.

No, it doesn't work this way. This magic armour comunicates with its wearer in a more complicated and spiritual manner than the way you think it does. His bare hand is protected by the armour's ability too.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 28, 2005, 08:50:54 PM
I'm not taking sides or anything, actually, I want nothing to do with this, but we are all on the same page that the pillars have been a disadvantage to Guts and an advantage for Serpico, even if Guts does eventually manage to turn the tables?

I mean, 'cmon. =)

I disagree. And eventually when there are no pillars ahead of DS Serpico is still dodging and parrying his way around.

Dodging yes, but I don't think Serpico can parry the Dragon Slayer. ^_^;

He did kind of "surf" it before with his sword, that was neat, but Guts had already outsmarted him by then. It must be hard for Serpico to find that Guts' advantage isn't just that he's a strong oaf, he's also a superior stratigist. Anyway, I hope the "I accept you" has nothing to do with our two duelists, however probable. =)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 28, 2005, 09:14:13 PM
I'm not taking sides or anything, actually, I want nothing to do with this, but we are all on the same page that the pillars have been a disadvantage to Guts and an advantage for Serpico, even if Guts does eventually manage to turn the tables?

I mean, 'cmon. =)

Dodging yes, but I don't think Serpico can parry the Dragon Slayer. ^_^;

He did kind of "surf" it before with his sword, that was neat, but Guts had already outsmarted him by then. It must be hard for Serpico to find that Guts' advantage isn't just that he's a strong oaf, he's also a superior stratigist. Anyway, I hope the "I accept you" has nothing to do with our two duelists, however probable. =)


Well, I see it just as an advantage for Serpico than a disadvantage for Guts too as I am not yet convinced that DS has been hampered even at the first part of the duel.

But even if it has, Guts eventually manages to turn the tables...but so does Serpico eventually. It seems there is a dynamic of balance in this fight of this kind.

The problem of Serpico is that he seems to underestimate Guts, so yes, I agree with you. But eventually he manages to get away with it, for now.

Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 28, 2005, 09:29:20 PM
Agreed, but I probably stated most of my points by now, so I'll probably give it a rest till next episode's out, to spare us all from going in circles.

Well, I wouldn't go on myself anyway if it wasn't for our good friend xechnao, I was just reacting so that people's point would be as clear as possible, and I originally misunderstood what Robby meant. I'm done for now though.

(unrelated: thanks for your hard work on the board) Everyone should say it once.

You're welcome! :)

Name it weak or weakened it's the same point we are talking about here mr Smart.

I'm actually not so sure about that... And where did you learn my surname? Are you stalking me or something? :-\

We know that Guts's weak or weakened state is compansated by the armour's magical ability. While in Berserk armour, one can move at full maneuverability and even better ignoring physical limits

See my post above. Removes pain and fear, don't provide user with new abilities. When the Beast is in control, it uses Guts' body like it wants and so he becomes ridiculously agile, like an animal, not caring about damaging himself. That's not the case right now though, plus there's a degree to the pain numbing capacity that relates to how much Guts is into his fight. Lastly I'm sure you're aware that dulling pain isn't healing.
 
And why can't Serpico dodge Guts strikes? He is dodging around every strike in this epsiode?

Not really, no...

And when did we say that Serpico should be considered wounded -what are you saying here?

Must be ketchup on his hand.

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Justafleshwound.jpg)

Serpico thought he were better than Guts in that situation. Well he wasn't, this is true, and he find out too late for his plan.

I like that isolated part of you post, though I'm not even sure that Serpico was ever really convinced he could beat Guts in this fight. Just figured I'd point it out. :)

Even if you are weakened or at full health while in Berserk armour it doesn't change your fighting ability.

It does affect it xech, especially since Guts is still conscious. If the Beast was in control, your point would have some validity, but that's not the case here.

I disagree. (about the pillars being a hinderance for Guts)

Well, sorry but you're wrong... Serpico himself states that it does. It's obvious anyway, I'm not even sure as to why I bother replying to that.

On the contrary, I think it affects his ability on the physical world. Since Flora and Schierke explained the interstice in the manga.

They didn't explain that being in the interstice magically makes you stronger, at best we know that it alters the way the principles of the world affect people. And since the layers of the world started merging, these very principles may be changing anyway...

No, it doesn't work this way. This magic armour comunicates with its wearer in a more complicated and spiritual manner than the way you think it does. His bare hand is protected by the armour's ability too.

Uhh, excuse me, I'm not even saying I disagree or anything, but you don't really have any fact to back up what you're saying...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 28, 2005, 09:55:37 PM
See my post above. Removes pain and fear, don't provide user with new abilities. When the Beast is in control, it uses Guts' body like it wants and so he becomes ridiculously agile, like an animal, not caring about damaging himself. That's not the case right now though, plus there's a degree to the pain numbing capacity that relates to how much Guts is into his fight. Lastly I'm sure you're aware that dulling pain isn't healing.
It does affect it xech, especially since Guts is still conscious. If the Beast was in control, your point would have some validity, but that's not the case here.

Guts was slicing apostles with absurdity when he first took that armour on - even before the beast took onto him-and even after the beast went away from total control he made that superman leap. Yet, with the beast the armour does not only eliminate pain and fear: it fixes the skeleton for every move possible so that the wearer will bleed the less and last the longer possible. If he is wounded or weakened the armour makes it so that he loses no fighting ability and it sustains him in the way to last longer possible.
But there are the drawbacks skullknight has talked about. 

Not really, no...
Must be ketchup on his hand.

(http://aazealh.net/Divers/Justafleshwound.jpg)


He bleeded but this is not a wound that makes him a problem or something: just a scar wound they traded (even Guts got his one).
I am curious what do you think by dodging though. If Serpico isn't dodging Guts hits how isn't he hit till now?

I like that isolated part of you post, though I'm not even sure that Serpico was ever really convinced he could beat Guts in this fight. Just figured I'd point it out. :)
Yes, I was talking about the cliff. But it is obvious that Serpico has been underestimating Guts even at this situation.[Guts' change of hands on his DS grip]

Well, sorry but you're wrong... Serpico himself states that it does. It's obvious anyway, I'm not even sure as to why I bother replying to that.
Ok, I can agree with this- for some pages.

They didn't explain that being in the interstice magically makes you stronger, at best we know that it alters the way the principles of the world affect people. And since the layers of the world started merging, these very principles may be changing anyway...

I am not saying that Guts is stronger, just saying that he branded the DS (which yes, requires some inhuman strength). If it wasn't for that apostle and Guts rage and he was to simply wield it in a spectacle contest I doupt he would have made it. This is my opinion.
From the point he wielded and went on, DS became a part of his path.


Uhh, excuse me, I'm not even saying I disagree or anything, but you don't really have any fact to back up what you're saying...

We have seen the armour move and cover parts of the body, it didn't cover that way before.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on May 29, 2005, 01:52:00 AM
My point was Guts Armor and fake hand helps him alot, while Serpico doesnt have that option since its too heavy for him. Guts armor is also magic to top that off, we know he actually had even more agility while wearing it. Overall this is a huge advantage for Guts.
Currently you might say the pillars ARE Serpico's armor. I think its fair enough.


I'm sure that Aazealh has already explained to you, but i would like to emphasize of the Armor that Despite it being magical... It does no help to Guts in this battle... Plus arent you guys forgetting that he is battling with the beast at the same time?



Overall I just want to give my own view regarding this duel... Serp has a lot of advantages in the battle, firstly he have those pillars to act like his so called "armor", secondly Guts is already in his weakened state has Aaz mentioned... Wearing the armor still wont be as good as fighting in his healthy stage... Thirdly Guts is battling with the beast, of course not to the knowledge of Serpico...


Despite all this disadvantages, Guts is clearly on the winning side... It reflect how huge the gaps between the 2 duelist...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 29, 2005, 04:20:54 AM
Serpico's coming to the sad conclusion that Guts is more than just physically superior to him, and whatever mental or strategic edge he thought he had was imagined.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Opie on May 29, 2005, 06:24:45 AM
Serpico's coming to the sad conclusion that Guts is more than just physically superior to him, and whatever mental or strategic edge he thought he had was imagined.

The start to an apostle Serpico? 
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 29, 2005, 06:41:37 AM
The start to an apostle Serpico?†

Haha, well, it's actually looking more like it than I expected. ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 10:40:29 AM
Guts was slicing apostles with absurdity when he first took that armour on - even before the beast took onto him

But he was still undergoing the process, he was subject to the armor's Od, and that's why the armor changed shape. Guess I shouldn't skip explaining the details uh? Remember what Schierke said about the armor at the time...  It's all a matter of how much exposure to the armor's Od Guts is getting, and whether he willingly receives it or not.

Yet, with the beast the armour does not only eliminate pain and fear: it fixes the skeleton for every move possible so that the wearer will bleed the less and last the longer possible. If he is wounded or weakened the armour makes it so that he loses no fighting ability and it sustains him in the way to last longer possible.

Yeah, it's true (excepted that the armor doesn't prevent the user from bleeding, and its "fixes" probably still hinder a warrior's fighting abilities no matter what, it's rather obvious), but it's not happening right now, so what's your point again?

He bleeded but this is not a wound that makes him a problem or something: just a scar wound they traded (even Guts got his one).

And how are you coming to this conclusion? Serpico is rather frail, I don't think anybody will disagree here, and he seems to be bleeding a bit much to me. It can hardly be compared to the usual facial scratch Guts gets everytime he fights.

Side note: Moreover, we don't even precisely see where he was wounded (the wrist?), and there's a lack of detail on the hand after the first shot, guess the new assistants are still taking their marks... I hope it'll be corrected in the volume.

By the way, did you check the image's filename? I'm like Guts, I plan your every move in advance. :-* Finally, a "wound" is defined as "an injury, especially one in which the skin or another external surface is torn, pierced, cut, or otherwise broken", so I'm not sure what exactly you're contesting here.

I am curious what do you think by dodging though. If Serpico isn't dodging Guts hits how isn't he hit till now?

Well, excuse me but Serpico did get hit, he bleeds too. ::) He himself says that it's impossible to evade all of Guts' attacks, page 07. He also had to parry with his own sword at one point, and he's not avoiding anything in the final scene.

I am not saying that Guts is stronger, just saying that he branded the DS

He branded the DS, uh?

If it wasn't for that apostle and Guts rage and he was to simply wield it in a spectacle contest I doupt he would have made it. This is my opinion.

Ok, well I disagree. :) Anyway it doesn't concern the current situation in episode 256.

We have seen the armour move and cover parts of the body, it didn't cover that way before.

What? I mean, I think I get what you're saying, but that still doesn't prove much as far as knowing if uncovered parts of his body are affected by the armor or not... The fact that his hand is shaking on the beach would be a better example IMO. Not important anyway.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 12:15:37 PM
But he was still undergoing the process, he was subject to the armor's Od, and that's why the armor changed shape. Guess I shouldn't skip explaining the details uh? Remember what Schierke said about the armor at the time...† It's all a matter of how much exposure to the armor's Od Guts is getting, and whether he willingly receives it or not.

But this point doesn't defend against what I am saying: Guts receives the Od all the time, we know that: his problem is to control the beast. As far as the negatives of receiving the Od, the ones Skullknight has warned him against, those exist even when he isn't fighting (all the time). Forgeting details? Who?†


Yeah, it's true (excepted that the armor doesn't prevent the user from bleeding, and its "fixes" probably still hinder a warrior's fighting abilities no matter what, it's rather obvious), but it's not happening right now, so what's your point again?

Yes, the armour does prevent a warrior from bleeding idirectly by fixing him: when bones are broken the armour holds them in place: if it weren't the broken limbs would propably make bleed one fighting a hell lot more. Out of the record, have you seen Monthy Python's Unholy Grail?† ;D

Anyway, that's not the point of argument. The point of argument is that you say that the armour's "fixes" hinders the warriors ability and it's obvious. I say not. Why is that obvious? It could make the warrior pay eventually his wounding but when the fight is on and he can still be going he can make every move as if he were in full health: This has been obvious to me about the armour. Didn't Guts went on attacking Grunbeld at the same level-being a problem to him- even after he has wounded?
I think that you expect that if Guts is healed he could do moves he couldn't till now in the Berserker armour. Well, I don't agree with this.

And how are you coming to this conclusion? Serpico is rather frail, I don't think anybody will disagree here, and he seems to be bleeding a bit much to me. It can hardly be compared to the usual facial scratch Guts gets everytime he fights.

Side note: Moreover, we don't even precisely see where he was wounded (the wrist?), and there's a lack of detail on the hand after the first shot, guess the new assistants are still taking their marks... I hope it'll be corrected in the volume.

By the way, did you check the image's filename? I'm like Guts, I plan your every move in advance. :-* Finally, a "wound" is defined as "an injury, especially one in which the skin or another external surface is torn, pierced, cut, or otherwise broken", so I'm not sure what exactly you're contesting here.

That wound seems it's not battle significant, that's why I called it a scar. Serpico uses his hand efficiently as we see him grab himself near the end of the chapter.
I study medicine, I know what a wound is. Theoretically it could even get an infection and get his arm amputaded. But it's not what we are talking about right now. We talk about their duel and that wound isn't significant there.

Well, excuse me but Serpico did get hit, he bleeds too. ::) He himself says that it's impossible to evade all of Guts' attacks, page 07. He also had to parry with his own sword at one point, and he's not avoiding anything in the final scene.
Yes, his dodges are not clean but there are. Serpico is dodging his way around to not get killed. He didn't still get a direct hit: this is what I mean by dodging.

He branded the DS, uh?

Ok, well I disagree. :) Anyway it doesn't concern the current situation in episode 256.

Sorry wrong verb. It was too late last night. I wanted to say he "wielded".
But why do you disagree?
I thought it is fairly obvious by that scene. Old Godo saying that he thought no human could do it, the inhumanity in Guts face expression as perceived by Rickert, Guts path of hate: his sense of living as explained by him: who black swordsman was.
Flora's explanation along with that scene brings to that conclusion.
I can take Berserk's atmosphere as something like a fact in the story -even if it's not directly explained by dialogue. After all manga is more like a form of art, rather a seminar or something.†

The fact that his hand is shaking on the beach would be a better example IMO.

But didn't have ha put the armour off at that point? I don't recall exactly. Although, yes, it's not so important for me either this part.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: MB. on May 29, 2005, 12:17:45 PM
Quote
Yet, with the beast the armour does not only eliminate pain and fear: it fixes the skeleton for every move possible so that the wearer will bleed the less and last the longer possible

It doesn't stop the bleeding. The last person to wear the armor died from bleeding to death while fighting. Remember when Guts first put on the armor?

Which also is a reason to say Guts was even further hindered in this fight. He can't even go 50% full speed or he'll turn into a fountain and start attracting vampires.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 12:27:29 PM
It doesn't stop the bleeding. The last person to wear the armor died from bleeding to death while fighting. Remember when Guts first put on the armor?

Yes, I explained better what I was talking about at my post above. By "fixing" ones bones stops the bleeding relatively
in a way. If a man not feeling pain went on fighting with broken limbs we would bleed to death before.

Which also is a reason to say Guts was even further hindered in this fight. He can't even go 50% full speed or he'll turn into a fountain and start attracting vampires.

Well I disagree. I didn't see his thrusts and swings 50% on what we have seen him doing in the past. I thought it was as always, his moves with the DS were depicted as in every other fight.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: MB. on May 29, 2005, 12:35:13 PM
There's a difference between swinging your sword at someone and trying to kill them in the black swordsman tornado fashion. It's like swinging a broom at a kid to get him off your lawn....you sorta want to crack him upside the head but you hold back. Guts is just making a point to Serpico. That he can control the beast while in the heat of battle so that Serpico wont feel unsafe for him and Farnese (sp?).
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 12:48:43 PM
There's a difference between swinging your sword at someone and trying to kill them in the black swordsman tornado fashion.

The difference is that Guts is fighting one man, not the hundreds of ghouls. Another difference is that Serpico doesn't attack him directly with a flurry of blows that Guts should parry and counter in the tornado fashion. This fight is more like the fight Guts had against the Barkiraka assassins in the tunnel, or that team of spawn-torturers.†

It's like swinging a broom at a kid to get him off your lawn....you sorta want to crack him upside the head but you hold back. Guts is just making a point to Serpico. That he can control the beast while in the heat of battle so that Serpico wont feel unsafe for him and Farnese (sp?).

I don't see it that way. This is your opinion, mine is different. Now, I am not saying that Guts wouldn't spare Serpico if he could but I think the effort of battle is different
than what you intend to say.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: MB. on May 29, 2005, 01:08:07 PM
I sometimes confuse facts with my own biased opinions lol

So who thinks this fight is over? As I stated before I think Serpico may see that he and Farnese are safe with Guts. Another event will no doubt occur but by no means are either of these characters gone since Miura has actually given them backstory.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 02:15:15 PM
But this point doesn't defend against what I am saying: Guts receives the Od all the time, we know that: his problem is to control the beast.

You don't understand. That he should fight the urge to let the Beast take control of himself is one thing. Now if you take a minute to read what I said, in episode 236 among others, Guts comments about how the armor's effect of dulling his pain varies depending on his immersion into a fight. That means that the Od and the way Guts is exposed to it vary.

As for "what you said", fact is that it doesn't really relate to my point in the first place anyway... You're saying that Guts becomes super-spry as soon as he dons the Berserk's armor, taking example of the first time he used it at Flora's mansion, and trying to say that it's the same in this episode, that he isn't in a bad condition, and certainly not impaired when compared to his usual state. That's so blatant an attempt at negating the obvious that there's hardly any need for me to even reply.

As far as the negatives of receiving the Od, the ones Skullknight has warned him against, those exist even when he isn't fighting (all the time).

That's not what I was talking about.

Yes, the armour does prevent a warrior from bleeding idirectly by fixing him: when bones are broken the armour holds them in place

Holds them in place by piercing all of the users' body, obviously causing more hemorrhage.

Out of the record, have you seen Monthy Python's Unholy Grail?  ;D

Duh... If I threw a reference (http://flesh.ytmnd.com/) at you, then yes I did, obviously... ;)

The point of argument is that you say that the armour's "fixes" hinders the warriors ability and it's obvious.

No, that's not the point at all. The point is that Guts is completely dominating Serpico in their duel in episode 256.

It could make the warrior pay eventually his wounding but when the fight is on and he can still be going he can make every move as if he were in full health

You're studying medicine, right? Then do you really think that having iron needles transpiercing your whole body to support your bones, including the muscles, wouldn't be a hinderance?

That wound seems it's not battle significant, that's why I called it a scar. Serpico uses his hand efficiently as we see him grab himself near the end of the chapter.

Calling it a scar is just misusing a word, there's hardly any way you can justify that. Anyway, Serpico using his hand 2 times after being wounded doesn't mean that his injury won't take a toll.

I study medicine, I know what a wound is.

Then use correct vocabulary, and don't contest what I say if it's unneeded.

Yes, his dodges are not clean but there are.

I guess that's as close you'll get to admitting something, eh? "I'm wrong but I'm not!"

I can take Berserk's atmosphere as something like a fact in the story

Well you do what you want with your interpretation of the "atmosphere", but that's still not enough... Guts killed Wyald (vanquished him at least) before he was branded, before he had the Dragon Slayer, and he could have wielded it without being branded, given all he had done before that.

And I don't know what exactly you are referring to (you'd better be more precise if you want to make your point clear), but if anything, what we know about this is that it takes time to "benefit" from being in the Interstice, it's not something that you gain right away.

But didn't have ha put the armour off at that point?

No, he was wearing it. I think that if he stopped using the armor altogether right now, his condition would get better in regard to that kind of problem specifically (given that his other wounds wouldn't allow him to move around so much).

Guts is just making a point to Serpico. That he can control the beast while in the heat of battle so that Serpico wont feel unsafe for him and Farnese (sp?).

I doubt this to be Guts' intention actually.

As I stated before I think Serpico may see that he and Farnese are safe with Guts.

Guts keeping cool right now doesn't necessarily mean that he will be able to next time he fights a strong foe.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 03:18:53 PM
You don't understand. That he should fight the urge to let the Beast take control of himself is one thing. Now if you take a minute to read what I said, in episode 236 among others, Guts comments about how the armor's effect of dulling his pain varies depending on his immersion into a fight. That means that the Od and the way Guts is exposed to it vary.

I read it, mind you, but I kind have my doupts thus I posted. For example why does he stop feeling taste, etch, even if not fighting? Why shouldn't he wear the armour on even when noy fighting?

As for "what you said", fact is that it doesn't really relate to my point in the first place anyway... You're saying that Guts becomes super-spry as soon as he dons the Berserk's armor, taking example of the first time he used it at Flora's mansion, and trying to say that it's the same in this episode, that he isn't in a bad condition, and certainly not impaired when compared to his usual state. That's so blatant an attempt at negating the obvious that there's hardly any need for me to even reply.

No, you are wrong. He was in a bad condition even at Floras. P

That's not what I was talking about.
So in my opinion you are making a confusion. Skullknight talks about the same thing: the effects of the od of the armour. There are not like there are three different ods or something.

Holds them in place by piercing all of the users' body, obviously causing more hemorrhage.
Nope. A piercing blade (see arrow) cuts veins but doesn't necessarily cause more hemorrhage. If you take it out of its place, it will though. Anyway that was not my point. My point was that if the armour forces you to go on fighting, making you not feeling pain, a guy with broken bones moving around would cause himself more hemorrhage in the end and die sooner than having the armour safe its bones on place.
However I see why you disagree with me. You think I was saying first place that the armour stops any blood loss. No, that was not my point as I explained on the post above.

No, that's not the point at all. The point is that Guts is completely dominating Serpico in their duel in episode 256.
If that the case of domination why hasn't he been able to protect the others proceeding their way to Farnese and go on allready? 


You're studying medicine, right? Then do you really think that having iron needles transpiercing your whole body to support your bones, including the muscles, wouldn't be a hinderance?

Because, the guy feels no pain and it seems any physiological mechanism of limiting himself. You know there are feelings against your pushing of your physiological balance to a limit (fear of situations is one of it) or after so you could recover (think of tireness, stress, unwillingness and stuff like that). I think the Berserker armour denies all this stuff making the wearer surpass his limits.

Calling it a scar is just misusing a word, there's hardly any way you can justify that. Anyway, Serpico using his hand 2 times after being wounded doesn't mean that his injury won't take a toll.

I said I called it a scar in means of its significance- is that so importantly wrong to you? ::)
Anyway about your second sentence wanna bet if its gonna have its toll or not?

Then use correct vocabulary, and don't contest what I say if it's unneeded.

I guess that's as close you'll get to admitting something, eh? "I'm wrong but I'm not!"

No, I was not wrong on context. I told you that I used the word dodge meaning† actively avoiding to get a direct hit: that was active from Serpico's part over there, wasn't it?. How do you call this anyway?
Is there a more precise word in english you would accept? Then sorry, my mistake, I was wrong† ::)


Well you do what you want with your interpretation of the "atmosphere", but that's still not enough... Guts killed Wyald (vanquished him at least) before he was branded, before he had the Dragon Slayer, and he could have wielded it without being branded, given all he had done before that.

Wyald? Hardly there. Guts hadn't been betrayed by Griffith, hadn't been through the eclipse and hadn't arrived at the extreme or nearly insane state of mind he went afterwards, the one that marked his "black swordsman" being.
Eventually at Wyald times Guts didn't wield DS but a seemingly more humanly acceptable two handed sword. Godo when he saw him wield the DS said that accoring to him was humanly impossible-remember that Godo should have known of Guts excellent abilities.


And I don't know what exactly you are referring to (you'd better be more precise if you want to make your point clear), but if anything, what we know about is that it takes time to "benefit" from being in the Interstice, it's not something that you gain right away.

We know it takes time? It's something relative: Guts was at an extreme state and this is what made it. It could have been all the years you want - snd still if it wasn't for his extreme state-that it could have take an instant- he wouldn't ever wield DS.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: MB. on May 29, 2005, 03:59:37 PM
Guts doesn't become super spry physcially but mentally he thinks he has become super spry.The armor throws hate and corruption into his mind and helps him push himself to keep going along with the fact that if he simply can't fall. He feels invincible and because of the armor mind fucking him "HE KNOWS" (but really he thinks) he's invincible.

So the armor doesn't physically make him stronger or hinder the amount of pain he can feel. It simply makes him not give two shits about pain.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 04:15:49 PM
Guts doesn't become super spry physcially but mentally he thinks he has become super spry.The armor throws hate and corruption into his mind and helps him push himself to keep going along with the fact that if he simply can't fall. He feels invincible and because of the armor mind fucking him "HE KNOWS" (but really he thinks) he's invincible.

So the armor doesn't physically make him stronger or hinder the amount of pain he can feel. It simply makes him not give two shits about pain.

You know mental limitations have to do with physical limitations as I tried to explain before.
Eventually it's the same thing you are trying to distinguish. Being able to ignore pain or not feeling it should have the same effect in practice, doesn't it?
And the point of the armour or the beast it provoces is not that he feels invincible: if he felt invincible, he wouldn't even fight. He just wants to fight and fight destroying the things.† ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: MB. on May 29, 2005, 04:21:52 PM
You know mental limitations have to do with physical limitations as I tried to explain before.
Eventually it's the same thing you are trying to distinguish. Being able to ignore pain or not feeling it should have the same effect in practice, doesn't it?
And the point of the armour or the beast it provoces is not that he feels invincible: if he felt invincible, he wouldn't even fight. He just wants to fight and fight destroying the things.† ;D

The problem with mental is that something or someone can snap you out of it. If the Berserker Armor Physcially turned Guts into the beast Schierke would never be able to save him and he would've murdered them all at the tree house.

So if Guts is fighting and has that rage going and say.....he's fighting a girl who looks like Casca. Seeing his opponent's face would snap him out of it right away and he'd be very vulnerable.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 04:24:34 PM
Why shouldn't he wear the armour on even when noy fighting?

He wears it because otherwise the pain would be too much for him to bear, and he would have trouble traveling. I've said so already, it's in the manga. To take an analogy from SK: the armor's Od is like a flame that never burns out. When Guts is resting it burns low like some coal, and when he fights it becomes a massive fire.

He was in a bad condition even at Floras. P

Whatever, it still doesn't relate to my point... Just time wasted.

Skullknight talks about the same thing: the effects of the od of the armour. There are not like there are three different ods or something.

I still wasn't talking about that, so please just stop insisting. And SK was talking about the armor's negative side-effects, not its Od specifically.

Nope. A piercing blade (see arrow) cuts veins but doesn't necessarily cause more hemorrhage. If you take it out of its place, it will though.

Pierce your arm with an iron nail right now, and take a picture of it not bleeding. I'm not saying blood will rush, but it'll still bleed at least a minimum. You don't really have any point here. I'll even quote Schierke for good measure: "the armor is reinforcing his broken limbs by piercing through his flesh and straining his bones".

My point was that if the armour forces you to go on fighting, making you not feeling pain, a guy with broken bones moving around would cause himself more hemorrhage in the end and die sooner than having the armour safe its bones on place.

A guy without the armor wouldn't move around.

However I see why you disagree with me. You think I was saying first place that the armour stops any blood loss. No, that was not my point as I explained on the post above.

But that's what you said...

Yes, the armour does prevent a warrior from bleeding

If that the case of domination why hasn't he been able to protect the others proceeding their way to Farnese and go on allready?

Haha, you crack me up really, how ridiculous an argument is that... Do you think that if they had decided to go to Farnese by avoiding the fighters, Serpico would have been able to hold them off while fighting Guts? They didn't go there because they watched the fight, they're actually concerned for Serpico and not for Guts, as you can see now that the translation has been posted.

Because, the guy feels no pain and it seems any physiological mechanism of limiting himself.

I know all of that buddy, but having dozens of metal shards piercing your muscles and bones wouldn't be a problem to you? The exact same as if being healthy?

I said I called it a scar in means of its significance- is that so importantly wrong to you? ::)

Hey, you're the one that contested what I said in the first place and had no reason to... So just drop it.

Anyway about your second sentence wanna bet if its gonna have its toll or not?

Why not? Having the elves heal it or getting bandaged or whatever, a wound is a wound.

How do you call this anyway?
Is there a more precise word in english you would accept? Then sorry, my mistake, I was wrong

I told you, he got hit once, then parried (deflected, if you want) an attack from Guts, and in the last scene doesn't seem to be avoiding the blow. It's ok to be wrong.

Blah blah blah [...] Eventually at Wyald times Guts didn't wield DS but a seemingly more humanly acceptable two handed sword.

And?

Godo when he saw him wield the DS said that accoring to him was humanly impossible-remember that Godo should have known of Guts excellent abilities.

Wow, so that's what you base your assertion on? What about the countless times people have said that Guts is inhuman? And Godot should have known what? Had he ever seen Guts fight before? There's just so much subjectivity here, it's hard to believe.

We know it takes time? It's something relative

Nope.

Guts was at an extreme state and this is what made it. It could have been all the years you want - snd still if it wasn't for his extreme state-that it could have take an instant- he wouldn't ever wield DS.

Wow, total bullshit. Congratulations. Seriously, let's cut that part off, if you want to go on about that just use the thread existing in Speculation Nation.

Guts doesn't become super spry physcially but mentally he thinks he has become super spry.

No?

The armor throws hate and corruption into his mind

No, the spiritual wound would allow his dark inner feelings to come out, thus letting the Beast take control, but the armor doesn't do that.

He feels invincible and because of the armor mind fucking him "HE KNOWS" (but really he thinks) he's invincible.

Where did you see that? Guts is aware of his condition from the first time he wears the armor. He himself comments about the armor simply "masking" his pain and fear.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on May 29, 2005, 04:29:10 PM
I just dont seem to get that part about Armor piercing... And its indirectly prevent it from bleeding i seriously doubt so... Unless u mean internal injuries... From what i see, it was the fixing of the bone that cause Guts to bleed like Hell...  Slann wound seem to contribute also...

Another thing... I feel that piercing his bones does not hinder his movement in any way... That armor literally become "part" of him during the beast transformation... The Od cause him to control that armor when and where as he like (Remeber the part where he fired the cannon without pulling the string?) Since he doesnt feel pain, he will continue to move and attack at full speed until he whole body was pierced through and his blood fully drained... And it was this pain killing effect that make him move faster than ever before, despite all the needles holding his bone back in place...


Btw to MB: Guts can still move at 100% the speed now, as long as he doesnt break any bones in the process and he can really hold back the beast...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 04:43:42 PM
Another thing... I feel that piercing his bones does not hinder his movement in any way... That armor literally become "part" of him during the beast transformation...

It's true that the armor reacts as if it's part of his body when he entrusts himself to the Beast. I'm not saying that he won't be able to move his arm or something like that, but it has to be a bother at some point, it makes sense if you think from a strictly physical point, a muscle isn't supposed to work well if perforated. ;)

I don't care so much about this anyway, it's just that the discussion moved to absurd arguments... I'm not even sure of xechnao's point, maybe that Guts is about to die due to Serpico's superior strengh and skills?

Guts can still move at 100% the speed now, as long as he doesnt break any bones in the process and he can really hold back the beast...

He's holding back so that he can keep the Beast at bay, Smith, and so the armor's effect isn't as strong as it could be and he still feels like the pain from his wounds. That's why he can't fight like he normally would.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: MB. on May 29, 2005, 04:46:24 PM
Quote
Where did you see that? Guts is aware of his condition from the first time he wears the armor. He himself comments about the armor simply "masking" his pain and fear.

Where's it say that?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 04:50:29 PM
I just dont seem to get that part about Armor piercing... And its indirectly prevent it from bleeding i seriously doubt so... Unless u mean internal injuries... From what i see, it was the fixing of the bone that cause Guts to bleed like Hell...† Slann wound seem to contribute also...

No. Imagine that the armour didn't fix the bone but had Guts moving and fighting with its bones in pieces. They would just create such an incredible mess.
On the other hand, the armour fixing the bone doesn't make Guts to bleed: it might cause blood loss while piercing him but it should retains blood in the vessels (that is if it doesn't pierce a major artery or something). Eventually, medically speaking things could be really complicated since bieng pierced in such an extended level could cause some parts of the body not receive blood at all. But I doupt Miura takes in consideration medical stuff like this. If he did, Guts or Casca should have most propably died from wound infections allready.

Another thing... I feel that piercing his bones does not hinder his movement in any way... That armor literally become "part" of him during the beast transformation... The Od cause him to control that armor when and where as he like (Remeber the part where he fired the cannon without pulling the string?) Since he doesnt feel pain, he will continue to move and attack at full speed until he whole body was pierced through and his blood fully drained... And it was this pain killing effect that make him move faster than ever before, despite all the needles holding his bone back in place...

Btw to MB: Guts can still move at 100% the speed now, as long as he doesnt break any bones in the process and he can really hold back the beast...


Yes
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 04:57:20 PM
Where's it say that?

Volume 26, episode 226.

Guts - What's going on with this armour

Guts - The moment I put it on, all my pains went as away

Guts - ......No, it just doesnt bother me. I don't care about it anymore. don't care, but...

Thank you to check it yourself next time. :)

the armour fixing the bone doesn't make Guts to bleed: it might cause blood loss while piercing him but it should retains blood in the vessels (that is if it doesn't pierce a major artery or something). Eventually, medically speaking things could be really complicated since bieng pierced in such an extended level could cause some parts of the body not receive blood at all.

It's the self-contradicting vagueness that makes it funny. ;)

PS: What about the organs by the way? When his rib cage was "fixed" by the armor to use your own words, you can see a few "needles" coming from behind, meaning through the lung.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 05:52:25 PM
He wears it because otherwise the pain would be too much for him to bear, and he would have trouble traveling. I've said so already, it's in the manga. To take an analogy from SK: the armor's Od is like a flame that never burns out. When Guts is resting it burns low like some coal, and when he fights it becomes a massive fire.
I know it's in the manga, that was my point

I still wasn't talking about that, so please just stop insisting. And SK was talking about the armor's negative side-effects, not its Od specifically.

What? It's obviously the same thing: armour's effects and its Od go together -at least for now.

Pierce your arm with an iron nail right now, and take a picture of it not bleeding. I'm not saying blood will rush, but it'll still bleed at least a minimum. You don't really have any point here, I can even quote you Schierke: "the armor is reinforcing his broken limbs by piercing through his flesh and straining his bones".

Bleeding to death is something, bleeding a bit till blood stops is something different.
Yes, there is some blood loss. But this is not bleeding to death or hemorrhage.

A guy without the armor wouldn't move around.

Did I say without the armour? I said without safing his bones. If the armour didn't safe his bones, the Od would still make him move to redicilously fight till the very very end. Goy it now?

Haha, you crack me up really, how ridiculous an argument is that... Do you think that if they had decided to go to Farnese by avoiding the fighters, Serpico would have been able to hold them off while fighting Guts? They didn't go there because they watched the fight, they're actually concerned for Serpico and not for Guts, as you can see now that the translation has been posted.

No. If they were only worried for Serpico's physical health they would have tried to stop Guts allready or they would have gone away, merely allowing Serpico a reason for him to go on sparring with Guts.
Owned- ;)

Hey, you're the one that contested what I said in the first place and had no reason to... So just drop it.
Was it me or you? Ok drop it  ;D

I know all of that buddy, but having dozens of metal shards piercing your muscles and bones wouldn't be a problem to you? The exact same as if being healthy?
See below as I try to explain

Why not? Having the elves heal it or getting bandaged or whatever, a wound is a wound.
Cut the crap. We were talking about the fight. Guts scar in the face could need a band aid too, that was not the point.
So will that wound have its toll in Serpico's ability in the duel or not-we'll find out in two weeks-? Honour your argument and bet on this, now if you please.  8)

I told you, he got hit once, then parried (deflected, if you want) an attack from Guts, and in the last scene doesn't seem to be avoiding the blow. It's ok to be wrong.

You crack me up, but it's ok  ;D
So what the fuck does it say in the translation again? And I asked you to use one word, not a sentence.

And?

So you would rather have Miura have Guts say for a fact: you know readers, I can wield DS because I am in the interstice or perhaps : donít make the confusion! itís because I am super strong -it has nothing to do with the interstice but with my mere human but hard core muscles!

Wow, so that's what you base your assertion on? What about the countless times people have said that Guts is inhuman? And Godot should have known what? Had he ever seen Guts fight before? There's just so much subjectivity here, it's hard to believe.

They have said about Guts being inhuman after he became the Black Swordsman-when did they say so before?
Godo knew the two-handed swords Guts was wielding: remember the training in the mountain? He could have suggest him DS but he didn't: instead he made clear that NO human could bear it.

Nope.
Einstein has said yes, it's relative. Anyway even by the manga you seem to reason like Schierke when she couldn't accept that those escaped fate because they shouldn't, by the rules Flora taught her.

Wow, total bullshit. Congratulations. Seriously, let's cut that part off, if you want to go on about that just use the thread existing in Speculation Nation.

You are bullshiting the manga, not my own words. Mausoleum would be more appropriate to bullshit this.
Seriously now you seem to deliberatelly bullshiting this for your pride. Yoy remember RICKERT and PUCK each time they saw in Guts a monster: or perhaps is this bullshit? Isn't this a living condition for Guts?

but it has to be a bother at some point, it makes sense if you think from a strictly physical point, a muscle isn't supposed to work well if perforated.

Nope. A muscle is a nerve and many muscle fibers. A muscle is supposed to do its work (contraction) even if some fibers get cut. If the nerve is cut it is paralyzed.
And contraction speed in fast contraction muscle is one fiber-dependant. It doesn't mean that having more fibers it should physically mean that the contraction would be faster.
Less fibers mean less energy stored for more prolonged use.

It's the self-contradicting vagueness that makes it funny. ;)

PS: What about the organs by the way? When his rib cage was "fixed" by the armor to use your own words, you can see a few "needles" coming from behind, meaning through the lung.

Yes, that is funny if you consider the manga funny. What about the organs? In your case Guts would have died allready. The manga doesn't go so far.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 06:38:26 PM
I know it's in the manga, that was my point

Your point was that you didn't get it. I hope you do, now.

What? It's obviously the same thing: armour's effects and its Od go together -at least for now.

It's not the same thing, but I'm starting to get tired of having semantic debates with you, just buy an English dictionary.

Bleeding to death is something, bleeding a bit till blood stops is something different.
Yes, there is some blood loss. But this is not bleeding to death.

Whatever you say, it doesn't prevent the user from bleeding, end of the story.

Did I say without the armour? I said without safing his bones.

Who cares about what you said xech? It doesn't even relate to the point, if you want to have arguments with yourself then do it elsewhere... Why must things degenerate everytime you start replying to a topic?

No. If they were only worried for Serpico's physical health they would have tried to stop Guts allready or they would have gone away, merely allowing Serpico a reason for him to go on sparring with Guts.

Read what I said again, then read the episode translation again. Then maybe you'll be able to reply coherently.

Owned- ;)

You're pathetic. ::)

Cut the crap. We were talking about the fight. Guts scar in the face could need a band aid too, that was not the point.

Tut tut, so what, you're backing up now?

So will that wound have its toll in Serpico's ability in the duel or not-we'll find out in two weeks-?

Serpico's about to eat gravel, so...

So what the fuck does it say in the translation again? And I asked you to use one word, not a sentence.

It says what I'm quoting below, why? Then you see him wounded, then parrying a hit.

I can't just dodge it forever.

Whatever you "ask" dude, I've been telling you about it enough already. If you're so narrow-minded that you can't even see your own limitations as far as employing words goes, fine.

So you would rather have Miura have Guts say for a fact: you know readers, I can wield DS because I am in the interstice or perhaps : donít make the confusion! itís because I am super strong -it has nothing to do with the interstice but with my mere human but hard core muscles!

You can cry all you want, you're still wrong, and you're still basing yourself off nothing.

They have said about Guts being inhuman after he became the Black Swordsman-when did they say so before?

Hahah, and what does that prove? I'm not even going to search for it right now, it's just pointless anyway.

Godo knew the two-handed swords Guts was wielding: remember the training in the mountain? He could have suggest him DS but he didn't: instead he made clear that NO human could bear it.

Blah blah blah, Godot didn't see Guts fight, and he didn't suggest him any weapon nor armor nor anything. Anyway I told you to cut it out, so please do it.

Einstein has said yes, it's relative.

Nope. That kind of blabber isn't leading you anywhere.

You are bullshiting the manga, not my own words. Mausoleum would be more appropriate to bullshit this.
Seriously now you seem to deliberatelly bullshiting this for your pride. Yoy remember RICKERT and PUCK each time they saw in Guts a monster: or perhaps is this bullshit? Isn't this a living condition for Guts?

Listen, you're really dull and living in your own world where you're always right and everything is possible. However here saying something isn't enough to make it true, and cussing doesn't prove your points right either. You've apparently never had anything to say in the first place about the Serpico/Guts duel going on in 256, so you just stop posting nonsense and come back on topic now or I'll move your posts elsewhere.

Nope. A muscle is a nerve and many muscle fibers. A muscle is supposed to do its work (contraction) even if some fibers get cut. If the nerve is cut it is paralyzed.
And contraction speed in fast contraction muscle is one fiber-dependant. It doesn't mean that having more fibers it should physically mean that the contraction would be faster.
Less fibers mean less energy stored for more prolonged use.

Yeah, great. Then as I said, you go and pierce your leg, then record yourself running and not bleeding.

What about the organs? In your case Guts would have died allready. The manga doesn't go so far.

Haha, so you decide how far the manga goes now? Sweet. How many times should I tell you to stop double posting by the way?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 29, 2005, 07:14:37 PM
Guts is just better.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 07:42:27 PM
Your point was that you didn't get it. I hope you do, now.
Same for you

It's not the same thing, but I'm starting to get tired of having semantic debates with you, just buy an English dictionary.

You create semnatic debates first place to use them as your arguments: and they make no sense really. It's not about a dictionary, it's about the manga.

Whatever you say, it doesn't prevent the user from bleeding, end of the story.

The point is that Guts fighting ability is not weakend because of his wounds while in the armour and still having enough blood to have his heart going-end of story. Glad you agree.   ;D

Who cares about what you said xech?It doesn't even relate to the point, if you want to have arguments with yourself then do it elsewhere... Why must things degenerate everytime you start replying to a topic?[/

I was replying to your quotation of my posting. You quoted me first place, so I guess your words apply to you right now.
Furthermore you admit you are quoting my posts without even caring what I've said. Well, I don't care replying back to this nonsense. But since I know that there must be a bad boy and a good boy for the matter to settle you are free to blame me as the bad boy. Me bad.


quote]
Read what I said again, then read the episode translation again. Then maybe you'll be able to reply coherently.
I did, you were wrong, you won't accept...so let us settle that I was wrong and full of crap and pathetic and limited. End of storry.



quote]
Serpico's about to eat gravel, so...
Since you are so positive bet on it! I am betting with you that he won't eat gravel...do you accept betting on our signatures?

quote]It says what I'm quoting below, why? Then you see him wounded, then parrying a hit.

Whatever you "ask" dude, I've been telling you about it enough already. If you're so narrow-minded that you can't even see your own limitations as far as employing words goes, fine.

Enough, yes. It's tiring and stupid anyway.


You can cry all you want, you're still wrong, and you're still basing yourself off nothing.

Hahah, and what does that prove? I'm not even going to search for it right now, it's just pointless anyway.

It proves that you can not say that I am wrong : you have nothing solid to counter-argue me. I said mine interpretation was like that...you disagreed: that's fine.
But since you wanted to say I am wrong whatever you created a mess.


Blah blah blah, Godot didn't see Guts fight, and he didn't suggest him any weapon nor armor nor anything. Anyway I told you to cut it out, so please do it.
He did gave him a sword.

Listen, you're really dull and living in your own world where you're always right and everything is possible. However here saying something isn't enough to make it true, and cussing doesn't prove your points right either. You've apparently never had anything to say in the first place about the Serpico/Guts duel going on in 256, so you just stop posting nonsense and come back on topic now or I'll move your posts elsewhere.

I wasn't the only counter-arguing this to bring this proportions. You can move this to another thread, it's ok with me. Don't see it as my posts only: you should see it as your posts too.

Yeah, great. Then as I said, you go and pierce your leg, then record yourself running and not bleeding.

I repeat: if I pierce my leg with a stick and let it inside I will be able to run without further life threatening bleeding if I could bare the pain: supposingly that the stick remains in its place. If I stick it out or every time I change its place it will cause further bleeding.

Haha, so you decide how far the manga goes now? Sweet. How many times should I tell you to stop double posting by the way?

Miura has shown us allready by Berserk's atmosphere parts of the story not explained in dialogue. It happens like this in literature arts you know. Or perhaps you are like the guys that need background laughs to know when they are actually joking?
Although I understand your tendency: correct translating effort is here and this kinda influences on how you perceive the weight of various aspects of the manga.
I understand this and this makes me understand why our arguments need to be beated to nonsense here but I am not quite there.


EDIT: Ok, this is really long overhere. Let's try to put anything of value to say in speculation nation.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: typhon_away on May 29, 2005, 07:45:10 PM
Guts is just better.

Yeah, well Serpico has never been some ugly mo-fo's bitch, so there.

And what's this with Serpico apostle? He'd have to sacrifice Farnese to become an apostle and it's obvious his motivation to beat Guts is in order to *protect* Farnese. Sorta pointless to kill her so he can keep her safe.

I'm betting the next chapter will have Serpico deciding that Farnese is safer with the potentially lethal Guts/beast then left to fend against the Kushnan forces.

And maybe they'll take her fiance along for the ride too...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 07:49:34 PM
And what's this with Serpico apostle? He'd have to sacrifice Farnese to become an apostle and it's obvious his motivation to beat Guts is in order to *protect* Farnese. Sorta pointless to kill her so he can keep her safe.

He says something of duties and adaption. I think he needs a master, not Farnese eventually. I think Serpico apostle makes sense, though I doupt we will be seeing this-at least any time soon.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 07:50:48 PM
let us settle that I was wrong and full of crap and pathetic and limited. End of storry.

Good, finally something sensible!

Ok, this is really long overhere. Let's try to put anything of value to say in speculation nation.

Good idea, glad you're following my advice. :)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 29, 2005, 07:51:40 PM
And what's this with Serpico apostle? He'd have to sacrifice Farnese to become an apostle and it's obvious his motivation to beat Guts is in order to *protect* Farnese. Sorta pointless to kill her so he can keep her safe.

That's a good point... if you're thinking totally one dimensionally about it. If your curious, you should read the thread(s) discussing the subject in greater detail in the the characters section.

I'm betting the next chapter will have Serpico deciding that Farnese is safer with the potentially lethal Guts/beast then left to fend against the Kushnan forces.

That's a safe bet.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 07:53:13 PM
Good, finally something sensible!

Good idea, glad you're following my advice. :)

You are the administrator man.  ;)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 08:02:44 PM
You are the administrator man.  ;)

Yeah, and you're Bizarro Olivier (http://mcdermot3.home.mindspring.com/PCdict.html#B). ;)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 08:06:04 PM
Yeah, and you're Bizarro Olivier (http://mcdermot3.home.mindspring.com/PCdict.html#B). ;)

No, you are wrong to say so.† 8)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 29, 2005, 08:09:27 PM
No, you are wrong to say so.  8)

You're a contrarian, too.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 08:10:34 PM
You're a contrarian, too.

What's that?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: *Gyom* on May 29, 2005, 08:12:34 PM
What's that?
A citizen of Contraria. You could almost be french.  :-\
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 08:15:17 PM
A citizen of Contraria.

Where is that?

You could almost be french.  :-\

I think I know what you want to say.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on May 29, 2005, 08:55:57 PM
That's a good point... if you're thinking totally one dimensionally about it. If your curious, you should read the thread(s) discussing the subject in greater detail in the the characters section.

I just finished.

I've now realized the profound error of my ways and am a complete believer in the Serpico Apostle theory.

http://www.jwcaketops.com/animals/foxes.htm

I think we can all agree that the above link is incontrovertible evidence that Serpico will sacrifice Isidro in order to become the fox apostle and rule the world with farnese as his foxy queen.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on May 29, 2005, 09:11:15 PM
I just finished.

I've now realized the profound error of my ways and am a complete believer in the Serpico Apostle theory.

http://www.jwcaketops.com/animals/foxes.htm

I think we can all agree that the above link is incontrovertible evidence that Serpico will sacrifice Isidro in order to become the fox apostle and rule the world with farnese as his foxy queen.

At least you're thinking outside the box. =)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on May 29, 2005, 09:28:37 PM
I just finished.

I've now realized the profound error of my ways and am a complete believer in the Serpico Apostle theory.

http://www.jwcaketops.com/animals/foxes.htm

I think we can all agree that the above link is incontrovertible evidence that Serpico will sacrifice Isidro in order to become the fox apostle and rule the world with farnese as his foxy queen.

I think you are spiritually in love with Griffith No More -or at least aspire to be his spiritual queen  :-X 
Ooops what have I said!...† ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on May 30, 2005, 10:43:10 AM
I know you have stop the heated argument but there is one point i like to point out...


But I doubt Miura takes in consideration medical stuff like this. If he did, Guts or Casca should have most propably died from wound infections allready.



Yes this is what i am trying to say... Miura himself doesn't have to emphasize too much on sophisticated medical stuff... because even if he know, by explaining in detail no one would really appreciate it (This manga is not just for doctors, obviously...) So why not spent more time on other more interesting part of the story? Thus, by using basic medical reason, it is common knowledge for us that being pierced through the whole body would seriously cause bleeding... yes you are right in a sense that being pierce by a nail wouldn't caused that much bleeding... how about hundreds or even thousands of them? Don't they add up?... Let not mention that fact he was moving at high speed... Blood was rushing through his body in the fastest way possible... Wouldn't that escalate bleeding?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 30, 2005, 12:08:41 PM
I know you have stop the heated argument but there is one point i like to point out...

You have a good point here Smith, but there is a reason to the fact that I stopped the discussion and it's because it had become abstract and off-topic without any hope of getting back on track. Replies to your post should go to other thread(s) (a new one if needed) in the proper section(s). :)

Anyway, a word about the art in this episode. I'm not sure you guys noticed, but a few scenes lack the usual care about small details (the bloodied hand of Serpico for example), and some of the characters' facial features are a bit unsettling (Schierke's nose on page 10 or Serpico's face on page 12 for example). Adding that to the absence of recruitement advertising, I think it's fairly safe to deduce that the new assistants have taken over and started working on Berserk.

Something totally different now, anybody noticed how Guts is looking like the bad guy on page 16? And at the same time Schierke and Isidro warn Serpico about how he won't be safe without the pillars. ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on May 30, 2005, 12:23:27 PM
Serpico's face on page 12 for example).

Maybe that how he should look like without all his hair covering him?  8)


Anyway it make me wonder if Guts will really kill if he had the chance... Or will he stop just in time like the past duel with Griffith?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on May 30, 2005, 12:36:13 PM
Anyway it make me wonder if Guts will really kill if he had the chance... Or will he stop just in time like the past duel with Griffith?

Guts has softened since the Black Swordsman days, and I don't believe him to hold such a grudge against Serpico that he would kill him as a result of this foolish duel (accidents happen though :P). I also doubt Farnese (or the kids for that matters, just check their reactions in this episode) to approve of Serpico's death at the hands of Guts, even given the circumstances, and he knows it.

Lastly let's not forget that Serpico has had quite a lot of character development, to the point that it would be a waste for Miura to have him killed right now (as someone said earlier in the thread). Or that Guts is the hero and that he's simply too cool to merely slay him. ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SlimJ87D on May 30, 2005, 08:48:02 PM
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/JohnDV201/PWND.jpg)

Well Guts is unpredictable like usual. But After seeing what Serpico can do, I have much respect for him.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: attreau on May 31, 2005, 06:19:57 AM
Hehehehehe......PWNED.....

Below is just my photoshop'd insight of what I think might happen next. In my opinion I think Guts will spare Serpico's life in a sense without any intervention(ie: kushan, new band of hawks) except maybe the intervention of Farnese. I think the duel between the two would be like the duel  between Guts and Griffith in the hawks days. When Guts wanted to leave the band of the hawk for good, he challenged Griffith, beat him, and spared his life. I think Guts will in a split second reminesce his duel in the past and spare Serpico.

(http://isaac.zenenterprises.biz/insight.jpg)

Then again, i think of it as a double-edged sword. Seems the beast wants to come out and play, and Guts is tired of all the bullsh*t. Also seems Guts is about to swat Serpico like a fly with his DS on the last page.  :-X
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: roberto999 on June 02, 2005, 10:15:38 AM
It seems...but in the "Gorin no sho" (quoted in the translation of the episode) there is a tecnique called "letting go of the hilt" and Myamoto Musashi the author of the book killed his first man letting drop the sword that he had in hand...so you could be right that Serpico will let drop his sword in the next issue... to kill Guts.



Page 18

Serpico: ...This is
What I've been waiting for!!



** NOTE: The original Japanese line says "suppress the pillow (枕をおさえる)". It's a good strategy from the book "Gorinsho (五輪書)" written by Miyamoto Musashi (宮本武蔵). The strategy means "be aware of the action of the opponent and take the initiative" and Serpico seems to take it as "annihilate the moment of the attack of the opponent and block him completely".

I didn't translate it literally not to confuse people.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on June 02, 2005, 10:51:01 AM
Serpico will let drop his sword in the next issue... to kill Guts.

Kinda with a jiu-jitsu or an aikido move?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: roberto999 on June 02, 2005, 11:02:54 AM
Kinda with a jiu-jitsu or an aikido move?
In his very first fight Myamoto Musashi then aged of 12, faced a famous swordman He (Musashi) was armed with  a sword and a stick. When the fight began Musashi did let drop his sword. His adversary was confused by that  ( he did not knew if Mushasi wanted to surrender or what and it would be shameful for him to kill one that was litlle more than a kid and that was swordless) Musashi did take advantage of his esitation and he grabbed him, tossed him on the ground and finished him with( several) blows of his stick
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: puella on June 02, 2005, 11:15:36 AM
It seems...but in the "Gorin no sho" (quoted in the translation of the episode) there is a tecnique called "letting go of the hilt" and Myamoto Musashi the author of the book killed his first man letting drop the sword that he had in hand...so you could be right that Serpico will let drop his sword in the next issue... to kill Guts.


Well, why "Gorin no sho"? It's known like that there? It's just "Gorinsho" and "no" isn't needed.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: roberto999 on June 02, 2005, 11:19:17 AM
Well, why "Gorin no sho"? It's known like that there? It's just "Gorinsho" and "no" isn't needed.
Yes "the book of five rings" - I have always seen it written "Gorin no sho" in the translations here in Italy
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on June 02, 2005, 11:21:25 AM
In his very first fight Myamoto Musashi then aged of 12, faced a famous swordman He (Musashi) was armed with† a sword and a stick. When the fight began Musashi did let drop his sword. His adversary was confused by that† ( he did not knew if Mushasi wanted to surrender or what and it would be shameful for him to kill one that was litlle more than a kid and that was swordless) Musashi did take advantage of his esitation and he grabbed him, tossed him on the ground and finished him with( several) strokes of his stick

Do you think Guts will ever be wrestled by Serpico now? Guts fans will throw their manga to the toilet. Even if Guts was wrestled by Griffith when they were much younger.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: roberto999 on June 02, 2005, 11:23:30 AM
Do you think Guts will ever be wrestled by Serpico now? Guts fans will throw their manga to the toilet. Even if Guts was wrestled by Griffith when they were much younger.
Of course it did escape to you that I was hinting at a possible strategy of Serpico, not that he would literally wrestle Guts.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: xechnao on June 02, 2005, 11:28:10 AM
Of course it did escape to you that I was hinting at a possible strategy of Serpico, not that he would literally wrestle Guts.

Yes but your strategy hints to a strategic "body" usage. How could ever Serpico use his body to overwhelm Guts'?
Serpico seems way too thin if you ask me: not competent enough about it.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Griffith on June 02, 2005, 12:39:36 PM
Serpico transmogrifying into Miyamoto Musashi I think would be a good stradegy for the stradgegy of victory. It would surely surprise Guts, and then Miyamoto Serpico could I think used the swallow cut technique that he learned fighting from Sasaki Kojiro.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: roberto999 on June 02, 2005, 03:13:22 PM
Yes but your strategy hints to a strategic "body" usage.
Not at all . For example if there were no more pillars behind whom Serpico could hide it could be "letting go of the hilt" because Guts could think Serpico defendless...instead it could be just then that Serpico could launch the attack that he had in mind
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: hanafubuku on June 02, 2005, 07:35:47 PM
Guts is just better.

Overall, yes (Guts is better then Serpico), and also for the fight in 256, yes.

As for speculation of Serpico killing Guts...  not happening based on the quote above and more so cause Guts is the main character and this story isn't ending anytime soon (or is it??? nvm - dont answer that).
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on June 02, 2005, 08:28:05 PM
Serpico transmogrifying into Miyamoto Musashi I think would be a good stradegy for the stradgegy of victory. It would surely surprise Guts, and then Miyamoto Serpico could I think used the swallow cut technique that he learned fighting from Sasaki Kojiro.
I love you  :-*

But Xech, I would just take it as Serpico has something up his sleave. Lets not get into a huge debate over this.   :D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Judo on June 02, 2005, 08:42:30 PM
Well, it was rather clear to begin with that Serpico would somehow lose this duel... but I expected at least that he could apply a bit more danger to Guts.

In their former duels Guts was at least surprised by Serpicos tactics, but now he seems to read all of them. I liked the Idea that Serpico is at least a better tactician than Guts, but our Berserk-buddy now seems to be the ultimate asskicker in all areas.
Poor Serpico... he is totally outmatched. If the duel ends this clear, I'm a bit disappointed.

The more I see Serpico fight, the more I want him to duel with Silat. *sigh*
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: royoak on June 02, 2005, 09:44:14 PM

In their former duels Guts was at least surprised by Serpicos tactics, but now he seems to read all of them. I liked the Idea that Serpico is at least a better tactician than Guts, but our Berserk-buddy now seems to be the ultimate asskicker in all areas.


Well, Guts has shown his tactical potential before (e.g. his fights against Zodd or Wyald). I don't think he was stunned by Serpicos maneuvers, but more like,
"Not bad, finally a human I can't just slaughter away with one blow."


Nevertheless, I wonder how Serpico will dodge the flyswatter.
(Argh, can't wait for the next episode)
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Wii wii wii on June 02, 2005, 11:29:58 PM
Poor Serpico... he is totally outmatched. If the duel ends this clear, I'm a bit disappointed.

Not so, he still has his agility... though it hasn't been doing him much good.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Smith on June 03, 2005, 01:04:38 AM
it could be just then that Serpico could launch the attack that he had in mind

Hmmm... You meant like kind of like backstab? That was not very hourable at all... A sly trick in fact if u ask me...



Really like a fox  ;D
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Un_Colombiano on June 03, 2005, 01:34:35 AM
by the way, is there any translation yet for epi 256?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: hanafubuku on June 03, 2005, 05:27:57 AM
In their former duels Guts was at least surprised by Serpicos tactics, but now he seems to read all of them. I liked the Idea that Serpico is at least a better tactician than Guts, but our Berserk-buddy now seems to be the ultimate asskicker in all areas.

After that first fight with Serp, and also so battles along side him - it makes sense that most his moves are now read by Guts, also because Guts acknowledges that Serpico has skill he is also better prepared to face Serpico then someone who would underestimate Serp

As for backstabbing Guts... doesn't really feel possible - not based on any hard evidence, just a conclusion that came up after seeing him dodge and fight a lot of mean enemies in a way that makes it feel like instead of just 1 eye, he has both eyes in front and in back.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: puella on June 03, 2005, 07:14:09 AM
Yes "the book of five rings" - I have always seen it written "Gorin no sho" in the translations here in Italy

The original book by Miyamoto Musashi is "Gorinsho" and "Gorin no sho" is some commentary book or explanation/illustration book by other authors. There are several kinds of "Gorin no sho". But they're not the original. At least it is like that in Japan and Asian countries.

This is original. Gorinsho:

(http://www.matsusho.com/musashi/image/gorinshyo.jpg)  (http://www.isis.ne.jp/mnn/senya/images/443gorin.jpg)

These are unoriginal. Gorin no sho:

(http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/imgdata/4569625584.jpg)     (http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/4062737442.09.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)

** "Gorin" means earth, water, fire, wind, sky in the book which consists of five volumes (地之卷, 水之卷, 火之卷, 風之卷, 空之卷).
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on June 03, 2005, 07:23:32 AM
In their former duels Guts was at least surprised by Serpicos tactics, but now he seems to read all of them. I liked the Idea that Serpico is at least a better tactician than Guts, but our Berserk-buddy now seems to be the ultimate asskicker in all areas.

Guts was surprised because he didn't know that Serpico was more than a better-than-average fighter with good speed, he underestimated him. He was also in a hurry on the cliff, but still got Serpico out of his way relatively easily.

Guts has shown tactical abilities in all of his fights against apostles or almost, he really wouldn't have any reason to be envious of Serpico on that matter. So yeah, he was surprised once because he didn't expect him to be a clever and tricky opponent, but that's it. Now Serpico even has some pyschological pressure playing against him.

by the way, is there any translation yet for epi 256?

How about you check the Translation Section (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?board=23.0)?
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on June 03, 2005, 07:29:24 AM
The original book by Miyamoto Musashi is "Gorinsho" and "Gorin no sho" is some commentary book or explanation/illustration book by other authors. There are several kinds of "Gorin no sho". But they're not the original.

This is original. Gorinsho:

http://www.matsusho.com/musashi/image/gorinshyo.jpg

These are unoriginal. Gorin no sho:

http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/imgdata/4569625584.jpg     http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/4062737442.09.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

** "Gorin" means earth, water, fire, wind, sky in the book which consists of five volumes (地之卷, 水之卷, 火之卷, 風之卷, 空之卷).

Well... its supposed to be Go rin no sho... Book of the 5 rings.... but yea anyways....  ;D   "Gorin" doesnt actually mean the elements.... just making that clear to some other peopele.   :-*
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: puella on June 03, 2005, 07:37:08 AM
Well... its supposed to be Go rin no sho... Book of the 5 rings.... but yea anyways....  ;D   "Gorin" doesnt actually mean the elements.... just making that clear to some other peopele.   :-*

...
Ask your GF what is written in the image(Gorinsho). After that tell it again to me.

Yeah, the original kanji "Gorin" means five wheels and could be translated into five rings. But what I said is the meaning relating to the content of the book.
I don't know why/how it got to be known as Gorin no sho there (in the Western World) but I just wanted to say about the original.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on June 03, 2005, 10:46:27 AM
...
Ask your GF what is written in the image(Gorinsho). After that tell it again to me.

Yeah, the original kanji "Gorin" means five wheels and could be translated into five rings. But what I said is the meaning relating to the content of the book.
I don't know why/how it got to be known as Gorin no sho there (in the Western World) but I just wanted to say about the original.
I did but she said once again that she didn't understand the rin part as they are old kanji... She did say that obviously, the Go part means the 5 parts but that Gorin did not literly translate earth,fire,wind,water,sky.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Judo on June 03, 2005, 01:29:20 PM
Guts was surprised because he didn't know that Serpico was more than a better-than-average fighter with good speed, he underestimated him. He was also in a hurry on the cliff, but still got Serpico out of his way relatively easily.
Guts has shown tactical abilities in all of his fights against apostles or almost, he really wouldn't have any reason to be envious of Serpico on that matter. So yeah, he was surprised once because he didn't expect him to be a clever and tricky opponent, but that's it. Now Serpico even has some pyschological pressure playing against him.

Well, I know that Guts is an allrounder and not just a blunt slugger.
But for example when Serpico took one of Guts' throwing bombs at the fight on the cliff... I've never seen Guts revaluate a situation this quick.
Or maybe it was just my stereotypical thinking that Serpico should have more savvy for he is the gaunt and silent type of guy.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Walter on June 03, 2005, 02:18:16 PM
But for example when Serpico took one of Guts' throwing bombs at the fight on the cliff... I've never seen Guts revaluate a situation this quick.
As Aazealh said befor eme, Guts really wasn't in the mood to fuck around.  Casca was just beyond his reach.  Similaly, Guts isn't fucking around now either. 

Maybe I missed your point? Your use of revaluate was unclear to me.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on June 03, 2005, 04:04:37 PM
But for example when Serpico took one of Guts' throwing bombs at the fight on the cliff... I've never seen Guts revaluate a situation this quick.

Well, being able to catch a bomb suddenly thrown at you is more a matter of reflexes than anything else. However, reusing it against Guts was a cunning manoeuvre.

Now if you want to speak about Guts reacting quickly to a situation, we have a ton of examples... So many that it's hard to remember one clearly, but they exist. Think of him using a sword in the snow to stab Zodd on the Hill of Swords, or his use of his mouth to block various attacks (from Griffith's sword to the tools of Mozgus' disciples). Even using his sword as a pole when he fought members of the Bakiraka on his way to Albion, or all the times he lured his opponents with his surprising way of action... Serpico himself comments about the unpredictable nature of Guts.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Wii wii wii on June 03, 2005, 04:51:07 PM
or his use of his mouth to block various attacks (from Griffith's sword to the tools of Mozgus' disciples).
And another from the same fight with Griffith when he was 15(which he's surely gotten better since) was when he thrust his sword into the ground and threw all the dirt in Griffith's face.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: hanafubuku on June 04, 2005, 06:52:22 PM
And another from the same fight with Griffith when he was 15(which he's surely gotten better since) was when he thrust his sword into the ground and threw all the dirt in Griffith's face.

I think that is what Aazealh meant when he cited Griffith's sword after describing the mouth tech. - unless there was another fight between the two where Guts used his mouth again...  but I only remember that one time before Guts joined the Band
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Aazealh on June 04, 2005, 08:27:11 PM
I think that is what Aazealh meant when he cited Griffith's sword after describing the mouth tech.

I said that Guts blocked Griffith's sword with his mouth, and Wah Wah Wah referred to a trick he used before that, during the same fight (i.e. throwing dirt and grass in Griffith's face).

Anyway we'd need to dedicate a whole thread to Guts' tricks and tactics if we were to summarize them all...
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: hanafubuku on June 05, 2005, 03:12:16 PM
OOPS, yah - ur right ^_^;

Guts sure has a large bag of tricks - goes to show you how quickly he thinks on his feet and the level of determination he has in accomplishing what he sets out to do.
Title: Re: Episode 256
Post by: Un_Colombiano on June 05, 2005, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: Aazealh

How about you check the Translation Section (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?board=23.0)?

oops, sorry!