SkullKnight.net

Berserk => Current Episodes => Topic started by: Aazealh on March 23, 2006, 12:42:38 AM

Title: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 23, 2006, 12:42:38 AM
Title: 東方魔術 - Oriental Magic (http://www.younganimal.com/berserk/sp/06v07.html)

(http://www.younganimal.com/berserk/sp/img/06v07.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on March 23, 2006, 12:58:12 AM
Now that's a... unique, preview. =)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: spikeyhairedcadet on March 23, 2006, 01:03:23 AM
never the less a great conflict in the works! :beast:  Thanx for the preview Aaz!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rhombaad on March 23, 2006, 01:16:35 AM
Yeah, saw this just a little while ago, but I figured Aazealh would have it up in no time (and I was right! :guts:).  This preview is much more of a tease for me than the last one, probably because of how bad the situation for Guts and his group has gotten.  I can't wait to see the rest of the episode!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 23, 2006, 01:31:23 AM
Babelfish tells me the title means "east magic"... but would that refer to Schierke or the Kushans? (most likely Kushans, of course, since Schierke's magic is nothing new by now) I thought that Vritannis was on the western coast, but I guess I was mistaken. It would make more sense for the Kushan empire to be in the east anyway (and yes, I realize the Berserk world is probably round, too...)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: yota821 on March 23, 2006, 01:52:33 AM
Either "East Magic" or "Eastern Magic" is fine.   Really nice preview.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 23, 2006, 01:58:49 AM
Babelfish tells me the title means "east magic"... but would that refer to Schierke or the Kushans? (most likely Kushans, of course, since Schierke's magic is nothing new by now)
Not only that, but Daiba's last words from 270 are pondering how his magic will fare against Schierke's.  It's pretty obvious "Eastern Magic" is referring to Daiba's yet-unseen abilities.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how his powers differ in nature from Schierke's.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 23, 2006, 03:25:35 AM
I'm so stoked  :guts:

Looks to be a kickass fight.   ...or completely one sided for this episode.  Either way is good  :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Some Guy on March 23, 2006, 04:21:07 AM
I'm really looking forward to this one.  I wonder what sort of eastern magic Daiba will use (apparently a large water vortex is one of them)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: mike.william on March 23, 2006, 06:18:42 AM
Unless Guts has some kinda mid-air double-jump ability, looks like he's getting a tornado up the ass.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: okami on March 23, 2006, 06:59:48 AM
I wonder how Guts will fare out since (off of the top of my head, at least) he's never had to use his brute force against magic. Things don't look too good, and the suspense of how Guts will retain his humanity was never better!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on March 23, 2006, 07:14:47 AM
Wonder if guts will just go apeshit on the ship first, then to Daiba. Or maybe he will do both at the same time. I'm still holding out for Voltron.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rickert on March 23, 2006, 08:53:15 AM
I'm NOT totally surprised that the magical element of the Daiba chief is water-or is it wind?- (off course we don't know for sure, but it's my guessing though; it seems rather like guts is being attacked by it than he is being helped by the 'tornado', but who knows, we'll see).

What really isn't that big of a surprise either is the guarantee of the dope visuals this episode is gonna bark all over us.
 :void:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 23, 2006, 08:54:32 AM
I thought that Vritannis was on the western coast, but I guess I was mistaken.

Elfhelm is located in the western sea, so logically Vritannis should be situated in the west too. However since we don't know the geography of the Berserk world at all we can't seriously speculate about its exact location. Basically it's plausible as long as departing people can sail to the west. And of course nothing prevents the Kushans to attack a western port while being from the east themselves.

Either "East Magic" or "Eastern Magic" is fine.

I went for "Oriental". :void:

I'm NOT totally surprised that the magical element of the Daiba chief is water-or is it wind?- (off course we don't know for sure, but it's my guessing though; it seems rather like guts is being attacked by it than he is being helped by the 'tornado', but who knows, we'll see).

I think it's obvious Guts is jumping at Daiba in order to kill him but will be intercepted by that magical whirlpool, however I don't see why Daiba's powers should be limited to one element. It's just normal for him to use water in the context.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 23, 2006, 11:30:39 AM
Agree with Aaz I don't think that there is any special relation between wind/water and Daiba...anyway I expect a lot from this episode the beast is still "hungry" but even with Schierke's help I don't see a "good" issue to this battle(like many others btw)...Guts was in a poor state after his little encounter with Slann but now...
Hope the gang will be more helpfull than "Sugoii Guts is so strong  :isidro:" and the previous episode let me hope so (that they will act as a real team)...
Good preview/teaser anyway
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: docster on March 23, 2006, 01:39:50 PM
omg omg, the greatest preview ever! Cant wait!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Feanor on March 23, 2006, 03:05:57 PM
On the picture you can see,that guts is still able to move fast, jump and fight. So i hope he can
make it. Perhaps, the huge dragonslayer could be a disadvantage against a fast and agile opponent like daiba. But in the end guts will have to hit him only one time :chomp:
I think serpico could be a  help, because he can fly.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Judo on March 23, 2006, 03:24:06 PM
Quote
On the picture you can see,that guts is still able to move fast, jump and fight. So i hope he can
make it.

with this injury of his, he'll surely bleed to death if this fight takes too long... especially if he keeps jumping around like a kangaroo.

Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Proj2501 on March 23, 2006, 03:26:15 PM
This fight will certainly stand out amongst the others we've seen in the past. I'm sure we'll see some amazing stuff real soon. Guts/Schierke vs Daiba (first 'magician' Guts has faced), with possible aid from his companions. Though I don't think that will happen..what if they get to close to Guts in his state? He might attack them. :isidro:      GOD, I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE!!!!!!!

Ha...if Puck and Evarella both use a 'Puck Spark' or in this case an 'Elf Spark' in the midst of the battle...it could possibly throw Daiba off for a moment, allowing Guts the perfect opportunity for his Dragonslayer!!!! Ok...that won't happen.... :puck:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 23, 2006, 03:37:34 PM
a fast and agile opponent like daiba.

How do you know that he's fast and agile? For all we've seen so far he's just a levitating old man.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Feanor on March 23, 2006, 04:18:07 PM
Quote
How do you know that he's fast and agile? For all we've seen so far he's just a levitating old man.

Okay, You've got me there! I asumed it.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Funkmasta Zeph on March 23, 2006, 07:06:56 PM
Don't get me wrong, but I'm glad things are really starting to move along...
Die quickly ya old coot.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Abstraction on March 23, 2006, 07:33:39 PM
I can't wait to see this one either! I'm hoping Schierke can still cast spells given her situation. But chances are Guts is charging in, without giving Schierke time to cast something...

Wonder if the od in the armor could somehow boost her skills too.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: jackson_hurley on March 23, 2006, 09:49:09 PM
aaaw that sucks! the episode is out tomorrow and i dont work (only have internet at work!) i'll have to wait for the week-end to end to see it! nice preview by the way! i can't wait to see how guts will fare against Daiba! haha
thx aaz
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: blueberserk on March 24, 2006, 08:35:28 AM
Nice preview Aaz,here comes the book 30's cover pic(appreciate Johndoe's resourse)
(http://berserk.xrea.jp/images/30s.png)
cool cover as usual,Miura's work always give me an exciting.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: wonderland reject on March 24, 2006, 08:49:07 AM
Any bigger pics of it?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: blueberserk on March 24, 2006, 09:02:26 AM
Any bigger pics of it?
quite sorry wonderland
we can wait it until 29th March.
actually not a long time to be waited :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 24, 2006, 09:03:37 AM
Nice preview Aaz,here comes the book 30's cover pic(appreciate Johndoe's resourse)

Yeah, I had seen that cover a while ago. And here's a bigger picture. On a side note, please either link to the original site or rehost pictures when you take them from another place, don't just link them directly.

I wanted to keep the surprise about the preview of the new AOW product, so now I can say that I think EndLeSS8 will be really happy to see the new Griffith statue. (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=5824.msg113456#msg113456) :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: blueberserk on March 24, 2006, 09:05:47 AM
Yeah, I had seen that cover a while ago. And here's a bigger picture.
Thank you Aaz~
Next time i'll pay more attention on it.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: wonderland reject on March 24, 2006, 09:36:01 AM
Thanks Aaz!! Wierd the last page of Guts profile reminds me of Femto... anyone else see it?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on March 24, 2006, 09:45:11 AM
Thanks Aaz!! Wierd the last page of Guts profile reminds me of Femto... anyone else see it?

Yeah, it's certainly a different look, even from any of the earlier Beast armor stuff when the "spirit of the Beast" went out of it. I was hoping at first it was some kind of strange new fusion of Guts and the Beast but it's probably just that he's gone back to normal (at first I thought the blackness around his eyes and mouth could be armor symbiote that was only drawn back enough to expose Guts' features, ala Venom, but it's probably just lots of blood =).

Also worth noting, very Batmanish looking too, and those shots of him saving the group looked like they were right out of Marvel, and I'm not dissing.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: wonderland reject on March 24, 2006, 10:01:30 AM
lol I first thought Batman when I saw it too but I decided a Femto comparison was more relevant and you're right this ep was a bit Marvel-ish.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on March 24, 2006, 10:07:36 AM
lol I first thought Batman when I saw it too but I decided a Femto comparison was more relevant and you're right this ep was a bit Marvel-ish.

When Guts was jumping around without the beast his awkwardness could be compared to a young Spider-Man. Or not. =)

Anyway, it was very cool to see Guts doing that under his own will. He barely made it there a couple of times. Very cool and exilarating. Daiba is impressed, at least. Is it just me, or is he a bit nervous; looked like he was digging into his own hand with his nails and drawing blood?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: akikaze on March 24, 2006, 10:26:43 AM
Yeah, he learns to control it. I wonder if he can do that without Schierke's help now.

Is it just me, or is he a bit nervous; looked like he was digging into his own hand with his nails and drawing blood?
He's definetely quite unsettled by this. (And he's digging into his hand, yeah.) I wouldn't expect that from a man like him though. Alas, just another hot tempered control freak.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: pippin22 on March 24, 2006, 10:40:15 AM
Thanks!  A great episode!  A great day for the beast armor! :beast:  Can't wait to read the translation.

Next episode April 14th?  Time flies when you're waiting for Berserk episodes.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 24, 2006, 10:55:49 AM
A very hot episode and Guts controlling the beast armor was so cool...don't know for the "marvel-ish" look of the episode(I'm not a regular of comics) but I agree about the Baty looks of Guts in the last panel!
Anyway thanks Aaz i can't wait for the translation
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: akikaze on March 24, 2006, 10:56:46 AM
Time flies when you're waiting for Berserk episodes.
When you don't think about it, that is. At least for me it is that way.
The pain...
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 24, 2006, 12:02:48 PM
very cool episode.

thanks aaz.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: krumm47 on March 24, 2006, 12:08:21 PM
Wow. Awesome! Thanks Aaz! Can't wait for a translation!  :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Proj2501 on March 24, 2006, 12:13:14 PM
New things goin on with the armor!!!!  :isidro: Kick ass!!! Thanx for the episode!!!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: secilj on March 24, 2006, 01:31:20 PM
Yeah, I had seen that cover a while ago. And here's a bigger picture. On a side note, please either link to the original site or rehost pictures when you take them from another place, don't just link them directly.

I wanted to keep the surprise about the preview of the new AOW product, so now I can say that I think EndLeSS8 will be really happy to see the new Griffith statue. (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=5824.msg113456#msg113456) :guts:

Thank Aaz, It's Berscan!!! ^^;
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: dylec on March 24, 2006, 01:38:43 PM
One word to describe this ep.: awesome!
Thanks for the scans. ;]
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Gohan82 on March 24, 2006, 01:48:09 PM
what en episode  :isidro: :isidro: :isidro:

such a great time reading these impressive pages (what a final  :guts:)

thanks for the scan  :serpico:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: guts97 on March 24, 2006, 01:53:17 PM
About the title "eastern magic", it makes me wonder if miura has draw a map of the world of berserk.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: yota821 on March 24, 2006, 01:56:45 PM
^^ Nope, he hasn't. At least not publicly  :carcus: .
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QuestionMark on March 24, 2006, 01:59:58 PM
I just thought this episode was very interesting--  it's the first time (atleast in a while-- perhaps ever?) that I've ever seen Guts, in the Berserk armor, doing something truly "heroic" in that prototypical-saving-people-Superman sort of way.  He's usually helping people by helping himself a bit, if you know what I mean-- i.e. killing demons and what not.  This was just an interestingly selfless act (in the last few pages, when he's holding up the burning ?mast?)-- it felt different from what he would have done even just a few volumes ago.

Also, I feel like in the past, once the helmet has come up, he's gone "beasty"-- is that true?  Because this is one of the only times (the only time?) I can think of where Guts is wearing the helmet and yet truly has his own sense of himself-- as if he were really starting to learn how to control the armor (with Schierke's help).

I also thought the Batman/Marvel/Superhero motif interesting-- just because I had never really realized how much of Berserk could just as easily be the back story of a "superhero" type of character-- or, that reading Berserk is really reading about the sort of story that leads a normal person to do bizarre, extraordinary, and slightly insane things for the good of others (much like Batman, frankly-- particularly how Batman came off in the newest movie-- i.e. a little peculiar and perhaps mildly insane).  I dont' read anything Marvel, but the fact that Guts has been led to where he is by largely selfish means, that he is a very divided character, that has had to _learn_ to help others, and that he truly suffers when he is helping them makes him _so_ much more interesting to me than any typical superhero type of character.

I dunno-- I'm sure it could be argued that perhaps a lot of these things could be seen earlier, but I've just never seen these aspects of Guts and the armor's character come out so clearly for the reader to see.  Thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 24, 2006, 02:15:17 PM
Also, I feel like in the past, once the helmet has come up, he's gone "beasty"-- is that true?  Because this is one of the only times (the only time?) I can think of where Guts is wearing the helmet and yet truly has his own sense of himself-- as if he were really starting to learn how to control the armor (with Schierke's help).

I dunno-- I'm sure it could be argued that perhaps a lot of these things could be seen earlier, but I've just never seen these aspects of Guts and the armor's character come out so clearly for the reader to see.  Thoughts anyone?

Back at Flora's place he woke up from "beast mode", darted at high speed torwards Casca and Farnese (killing some apostles along the way, thus aiding Serpico and Isidro) and saved them.  He still had the helmet on.  And that was not a selfish act.

So its happened before.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Abstraction on March 24, 2006, 02:45:04 PM
Back at Flora's place he woke up from "beast mode", darted at high speed torwards Casca and Farnese (killing some apostles along the way, thus aiding Serpico and Isidro) and saved them.  He still had the helmet on.  And that was not a selfish act.

So its happened before.

Yup... nothin "new" with the armor, but it's still good to know that back in volume 27, it wasn't a fluke that Miura showed his face in the armor after Schierke woke him up. (and he was aware of his surroundings at that time too)

I think Daiba had to draw some blood to see if he was dreaming...lol

Thanks for the scans!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 24, 2006, 04:13:03 PM
Yup... nothin "new" with the armor, but it's still good to know that back in volume 27, it wasn't a fluke that Miura showed his face in the armor after Schierke woke him up. (and he was aware of his surroundings at that time too)
I dunno... This instance strikes me as different, if only for the image on page 09.  It appears the Beast is still inhabiting the armor, but has been tamed. As Griff pointed out earlier, this appears different from the "awakening" in volume 27; the helmet isn't nearly as snug on Guts' face as it is now, and the eyes are different. The armor even retained the little skin wrinkles near the eyes.  To me, this appears to be a whole new evolution in the Guts/Beast relationship.  If that does turn out to be the case, I wonder how long this marriage can last...

Then again, maybe I'm just giving Guts too little credit.  What he accomplished this ep was amazing.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 24, 2006, 05:23:53 PM
He's definetely quite unsettled by this. (And he's digging into his hand, yeah.) I wouldn't expect that from a man like him though. Alas, just another hot tempered control freak.
I'm not so sure about that. If you guys mean the left-center panel on page 15, it looks more like he has bony fingers (hence the shadows) and is casting some kind of spell (it's probably some kind of trance for controlling the tornadoes, or some such). He's definitely impressed by Guts, but not "unsettled" or "nervous". Not yet, anyway. I do have high hopes that Guts and Schierke will teach him the meaning of fear before the battle at the harbor is over ^_^.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: HawaiianStallion on March 24, 2006, 05:44:54 PM
Eh I cant say I'm incredibly excited about the new look. I'd rather the beast helmet or the original Skull than the weird batman type look, just not too appealing to me. Will it last though when Schierke leaves his body?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 24, 2006, 05:56:42 PM
Eh I cant say I'm incredibly excited about the new look.

It's not a new look... Just the same helmet viewed from the back and the side (with Guts talking to them over his shoulder). Except the angle it's not any different in that shot from what it was in volume 27. It reminds people of Batman's mask because of the "ears" and the fact you can clearly see his eyes and mouth but in essence it's just this again:

(http://aazealh.nerim.net/Divers/Guts-helmet.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 24, 2006, 06:21:42 PM
Well, the helmet certainly appears more organic than in volume 27. 

(http://skullknight.net/images/beasteye1.jpg)   (http://skullknight.net/images/beasteye2.jpg)
Obviously these are from a different angle, and thus can't be compared directly,  however the eye alone has certainly become less angular.

It could simply be that the armor is retaining some of the old changes when it undergoes the transformation. Or.. something more  :beast: 
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 24, 2006, 06:28:00 PM
Obviously these are from a different angle, and thus can't be compared directly,  however the eye alone has certainly become less angular.

Yeah, the eye slots are slightly different, but it's not like it's unusual (they're like never exactly similar from one panel to another).

It could simply be that the armor is retaining some of the old changes when it undergoes the transformation.

Yeah, I could see that. Or it could just be artistic evolution. :SK: I'm fine with it either way.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: HawaiianStallion on March 24, 2006, 06:28:22 PM
The helmet also looks far tighter on his head, the "muzzle" of it seems shorter, blunter, less animal more human so to speak.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 24, 2006, 06:31:16 PM
The helmet also looks far tighter on his head, the "muzzle" of it seems shorter, blunter, less animal more human so to speak.

I don't see how the muzzle is supposed to be shorter or blunter. Looks the same to me. And it looks tighter because he's turning toward the viewer.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Swordsman in Sable on March 24, 2006, 06:38:52 PM
As usual, I'm impressed and somewhat suprised. Thanks Aazealh! I wonder what'll happen to Schierke when this is over...I'm guessing she'll eventually be able to return to her body, but who knows.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 24, 2006, 06:42:23 PM
I'm guessing she'll eventually be able to return to her body, but who knows.

Yeah, I don't think she'll stay within the armor forever... That'd be quite a waste. She'll probably be thrown back into her body when Guts will "deactivate" the armor, if you see what I mean.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rhombaad on March 24, 2006, 06:55:45 PM
Just got a chance to look at the episode and all I have to say is: :isidro:.  Thanks, as always, for the scans, Aazealh!  Guts' new look at the end is pretty interesting and I'm excited to see where Miura is taking this.  I wonder if Guts will be able to control the armor better from now on or if this is a one-time thing where Schierke needs to be involved for it to work.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Uriel on March 24, 2006, 07:01:52 PM
All this talk about the "look" of the helmet and Batman is very fascinating and all, but I'd rather focus on the episode. Like Walter said, Guts accomplished a lot in this episode -- I'm proud of him. The fall was very dramatic (and extremely awesome), but that wound got a lot worse from the landing. Still, he managed to fumble around the Makara corpses and catch a falling mast whilst maintain a much greater level of control over the armour. It's an amazing feet, even for Guts.

I can't see how Guts alone can finish off Daiba at this point, maybe the fight will end with a distraction causing Daiba to go elsewhere. But I hope anyone who doubted his power feels humbled now :puck: Also, Magnifico wins the "Best Face" award again for page 15. I smell avatars ahead.

The highlights for me were pages 09, 11 and 20. Guts rode that DS like he was reffing some trapar.. so cool (poor Eureka Seven joke)


Thanks for the speedy scans, Aaz. Volume 30's cover is beautiful -- somewhat reminiscent of Volume 16's action shot :badbone:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Wereallmad on March 24, 2006, 07:06:46 PM
I liked the sanskrit more than anything. That and Guts' "sore in the mornin'" comment (maybe not just marvel similarities).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 24, 2006, 07:07:56 PM
Like somes said I've the impression of a new relationship between Guts and the Beast thanks to Schierke(surely wrong) but even if Guts was truly great Daiba is still unscratched he maybe amazed by Guts's agility and raw strenght but we still don't know how powerfull he is...the guy can summon storm almost instantly and still "fly"(levitate seems more accurate)
Schierke's magics are rather powerfull but she needs a lot of time to perform them so Guts's speech at the end of the episode was cool but I'm not that sure that they will "kick Daiba's ass"
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Some Guy on March 24, 2006, 07:08:36 PM
Great episode, very interesting turn of events.  I noticed that Guts seemed to have more control in utilizing the strengths of the armor after Schierke brought him back (his agile jumping and clever use of his Dragonslayer).  He also seems in good enough condition to handle more of whatever Daiba can dish out, though Daiba might start playing hardball :zodd:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Woland on March 24, 2006, 07:13:35 PM
Thanks Aaz.

Well it reaffirms what we've known for a while, Guts acts much more intelligently once Schierke opens his eye.

Might Daiba be using some sort of blood magic?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 24, 2006, 07:46:49 PM
Might Daiba be using some sort of blood magic?

I don't think Daiba bled at all in this episode and even if that was the case, nothing hinted at him using blood to cast a spell, so I'd say "no".
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 24, 2006, 07:55:06 PM
This is the first time Beast-Guts has helped his posse in a way that doesn't involve a killing spree.

Looks like Guts is in his Wizard stage now thanks to Schierke. (I figured she'd help him out controling the armor's astral powers eventually.)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on March 24, 2006, 08:10:53 PM
I'm posting just to be seen, there's like 30 guests on here right now. :carcus:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Abstraction on March 24, 2006, 08:12:27 PM
I noticed that Guts seemed to have more control in utilizing the strengths of the armor after Schierke brought him back (his agile jumping and clever use of his Dragonslayer).

imo it was the same as when Schierke brought him back in volume 27.

Flashback... It starts off with him going balls out on whatever's in his way. Then as soon as he gets the help from Schierke, he diverts his attention (as if he's still in berserker mode but can control the beast) to saving his team mates.

Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 24, 2006, 08:16:02 PM
imo it was the same as when Schierke brought him back in volume 27.

Am I wrong?
Well, much like your username, it's too "abstract" a concept to pinpoint like that at this point.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mage on March 24, 2006, 08:20:22 PM
I dunno... This instance strikes me as different, if only for the image on page 09. It appears the Beast is still inhabiting the armor, but has been tamed. As Griff pointed out earlier, this appears different from the "awakening" in volume 27; the helmet isn't nearly as snug on Guts' face as it is now, and the eyes are different. The armor even retained the little skin wrinkles near the eyes. To me, this appears to be a whole new evolution in the Guts/Beast relationship. If that does turn out to be the case, I wonder how long this marriage can last...

Then again, maybe I'm just giving Guts too little credit. What he accomplished this ep was amazing.

I agree with the new appearance...don't know if it's just the armor changing to begin with (as Griffith suggested last episode) but it definitely is much more snug.  Guts' witty quip at the end of the episode ("gonna have major muscle cramps tomorrow") makes me think the relationship hasn't changed as dramatically as it looks, though.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 24, 2006, 08:27:33 PM
I'm posting just to be seen, there's like 30 guests on here right now. :carcus:

what a ham.   :guts:

And yes, I think its too soon to start assigning differences between when Schierke woke Guts up back at Floras and when she did it here, both in armor design and in power.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: pippin22 on March 24, 2006, 08:29:05 PM
He never talked while in "beast form" before did he?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Jhot obs on March 24, 2006, 08:31:52 PM
He never talked while in "beast form" before did he?
To anyone outside his mind, no.

Thanks Aaz for the episode.

A beautiful one at that; my favorite page being the splash where Schierke opens up Guts' eye in berserk mode.  :isidro: With Guts in control of the armor and Daiba's first attempts to kill him failed, things are looking up. Hope Serpico joins in on the fun with Daiba also; I'm not sure if Guts can keep the acrobats up with that makara wound for long against a wizard just getting started.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: pippin22 on March 24, 2006, 08:33:58 PM
Well, that shows that he definitely has more control.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 24, 2006, 08:41:37 PM
technically, no, he hasn't spoken with the helm still on.  But he's definitely had conscious control before while the helm was still on.  I don't think its that much of a stretch to say he can also talk with the helm on, nor do I think it demonstrates some higher level of control over the armor.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 24, 2006, 08:42:03 PM
Well, that shows that he definitely has more control.
Well, so did changing direction in mid-air, but this is all common knowledge if you read the translation.

Thanks for reaffirming it though :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on March 24, 2006, 09:01:48 PM
It's actually an interesting situation; at Flora's, even after he was concious, the mask stayed on (though it looked to be only a mask) and he did some incredible things before saving Casca and Farnese. Then the mask sort of trembled and "fell off" on its own, only to re-appear when he transformed again. So, either it's just a hollow mask on his face right now and is no different than if he wasn't wearing it (likely), or when it's still over him like that, he's still kinda juiced up. Could have something to do with how complete the armor is, even if it's not in full effect.

Anyway, at this point, it's only prudent to assume he's basically normal (like Wally said, the other scenario is too abstract to apply with any certainty, just something to consider). Kinda funny that it's sort of double-fooling us though, "Look at his face, it's like the Beast and Guts have merged!" Well, it IS a mask, afterall. =)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: mike.william on March 24, 2006, 10:59:19 PM
Kinda hard to say it's any different than the last time.  Looks like he might have just been woken up and nothing more. 

I was hoping he'd stay in beast mode with Schierke giving him the ability to breathe fire or something.  Maybe next episode. 
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QuestionMark on March 24, 2006, 11:12:13 PM
This is the first time Beast-Guts has helped his posse in a way that doesn't involve a killing spree.

Thank you-- I think that was a large part of what I was trying to get at.  I thought the whole situation with the mask felt different than what he's done in Berserk mode before.  Just my opinion, so whatever, but it seemed that way to me.

Quote from: QUeeN typhonblue
Looks like Guts is in his Wizard stage now thanks to Schierke. (I figured she'd help him out controling the armor's astral powers eventually.)

What were you meaning by "wizard"?  I think this discussion up earlier-- like a year or two ago-- about different stages of growth.  Can you elaborate on this again?  It sounds very interesting to me.

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Psymont 2.0 on March 24, 2006, 11:19:38 PM
i was looking for a nice version of 30's cover and stubled upon these

http://www.satyrnet.it/berserk/manga1.htm

italian covers are a little different
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: regina777 on March 24, 2006, 11:52:43 PM
i was looking for a nice version of 30's cover and stubled upon these

http://www.satyrnet.it/berserk/manga1.htm

italian covers are a little different
but that is awesome- thanks for sharing. infact, i was, and am still amazed guts managed to change motions in the air. before he did that i was imagining to myself if he could actually fly sometime later- and then i see him do that- that was really amazing. it is quite clear that there is more to the mask that we dont know of yet. and like many have said it looks like guts is gaining more control- i hope he is.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Woland on March 25, 2006, 04:06:37 AM
technically, no, he hasn't spoken with the helm still on.  But he's definitely had conscious control before while the helm was still on.  I don't think its that much of a stretch to say he can also talk with the helm on, nor do I think it demonstrates some higher level of control over the armor.

We'll see.

As bad as the wound he recieved from the makara is, I'd suspect he's still getting a lot of the benefits of the activated armor.  But then, Guts wasn't really the one to take control again, since Schierke returned him to his senses.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Vetrox on March 25, 2006, 09:52:55 AM
 :isidro: Daaaaamn what an ending. Catching the full force of a falling mast...the momentum built up could have crushed a damn truck.

And the half-fuse between guts and the Berserker armour...that just looked cool.

Thanks aplenty!  :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 25, 2006, 10:42:41 AM
*Best post of the thread*

I wish everybody would post like that.

Thank you-- I think that was a large part of what I was trying to get at.

So what you wanted to say was that this time Guts withheld a falling mast while wearing the armor and that he never did before? I'm not sure you guys realize that it isn't making any real point. I thought CnC's reply was clear enough on that matter... But since it doesn't seem to be the case, I'll answer myself:

it's the first time (atleast in a while-- perhaps ever?) that I've ever seen Guts, in the Berserk armor, doing something truly "heroic" in that prototypical-saving-people-Superman sort of way.

Ok, so first, Guts went Berserk in the armor 3 times counting the current events. That means you'll see him doing things "for the first time" in it for a while, because he's not done much besides fighting until now. Second, when Schierke woke him up while he was fighting Grunberd, she used Casca and told him he had to protect her. Then he jumped through a fireball to avoid facing his opponent, saved Isidro and Serpico by throwing his sword like if it was a knife and jumped at high speed to retrieve it, then rushed to Farnese and Casca, saving them from an apostle at the last moment. Then his helmet lifted up and he looked completely beaten. It's one of the most superheroish scenes in the whole manga. He had no personal interest in saving them as in "helping himself", he saved them because they're his friends and they were in danger. Granted, he killed monsters in order to save them instead of holding a burning mast. Big deal. I'll go ahead and say it doesn't make any difference. But then again, maybe if he had still had his helmet on when he saved Schierke from the falling tree branch on fire 5 pages later you guys would think differently?

Also, I feel like in the past, once the helmet has come up, he's gone "beasty"-- is that true?  Because this is one of the only times (the only time?) I can think of where Guts is wearing the helmet and yet truly has his own sense of himself-- as if he were really starting to learn how to control the armor (with Schierke's help).

See above, among the three times he's gone berserk in the armor, he's been "himself" with the helm on twice. The other time was when he almost killed his companions on the beach, the Moonlight Child had to intervene and the helmet went off as soon as Schierke pulled him from the "sea" through Flora's carved talisman. Anyway, both times he came back to himself while wearing the helmet were due to Schierke's actions and not his own, I think that invalidates your point. The only thing that could hint at him having more "control" over the armor than he did in volume 27 would be the fact that he still has the helmet on, but that isn't much and I think that's all there is for now.

reading Berserk is really reading about the sort of story that leads a normal person to do bizarre, extraordinary, and slightly insane things for the good of others

But Guts was never normal. He's always been an exception, from his birth until now.

I dunno-- I'm sure it could be argued that perhaps a lot of these things could be seen earlier

I think so, yes. Better late than never though. :guts:

What were you meaning by "wizard"?  I think this discussion up earlier-- like a year or two ago-- about different stages of growth.  Can you elaborate on this again?  It sounds very interesting to me.

How about you search for the thread instead and revive it if you have anything to add to it? Thanks. She was referring to some generic and pseudo-archetypical evolution cycles of heroes in myths that are vague enough to allow people to twist and interpret them in any possible way so they apply (awkwardly) to any character. And since I'm such a nice guy, here's a link to it. (http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=1436.0)

italian covers are a little different

Well that's isn't exactly a scoop. They have 3 editions and the regular one is composed of half volumes, for that reason they have twice more volumes and thus must use other pictures to fill in the blanks. In the past they've used side art Miura was doing for YA or posters, and nowadays they just use one of the insert posters that are in each Japanese volume. Nothing exceptional.

infact, i was, and am still amazed guts managed to change motions in the air. before he did that i was imagining to myself if he could actually fly sometime later- and then i see him do that- that was really amazing.

You're aware that he just used the weight of his sword to change the direction of his fall, right? He didn't actually fly, just smartly shifted the DS' position. Usual Guts stuff.

As bad as the wound he recieved from the makara is, I'd suspect he's still getting a lot of the benefits of the activated armor.

He always gets benefits from the armor as long as he's wearing it, though the armor's effects are stronger when he fights. That doesn't relate to what CnC was talking about: the fact that Guts speaking in the armor now and not doing it when Schierke woke him up in volume 27 doesn't prove anything because he simply didn't have the opportunity to do it at the time. It's just not making any point besides the fact that this time around the helmet hasn't automatically retracted as soon as Guts saved his friends (what it did in volume 27 after he killed the apostle threatening Casca and Farnese).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QuestionMark on March 25, 2006, 01:59:49 PM
Thank you Aaz, for your very detailed reply.  I still disagree, but whatever.

Indeed, Guts has often done many heroic things.  I simply thought the thing with the mast (which is obviously much less amazing than many other things he's done) was very "Supermanish"-- the pose specifically.  It had, obviously only to me, the taste of a "super hero" pose to it.  If you don't see that at all, that's cool-- we just disagree.  It seems obvious to me, but not to you-- perhaps I'm wrong.

Anyways, thank you very much for the link to the thread.



Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 25, 2006, 02:16:42 PM
I simply thought the thing with the mast (which is obviously much less amazing than many other things he's done) was very "Supermanish"-- the pose specifically.

I don't see why it should be deemed less amazing than the rest, it's just not the first time he does something like that nor is it particularly more "heroic" than some of his previous actions. Anyway, you can see a lot of "Supermanish" poses in the manga if you search for them, we were already drawing that kind of parallels years ago... See, this used to be the frontpage of the site. (http://aazealh.nerim.net/Divers/Superguts.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QuestionMark on March 25, 2006, 02:32:07 PM
Geez man, I know that was the front page of the site..... ::chuckle:: ::sigh:: I'm simply saying that pose, with the mast, seemed particularly like a Superman pose.  Obviously, knowing the manga better than I, perhaps you've seen other poses in the past that were also very "Supermanish" that I missed.  I saw this one.  It seemed very..... obvious and upfront about it.  Perhaps I was influenced by the "Batman-like" mask/ helmet at the end... in regards to thinking about superheroes.

I still hold that the helmet looks different now (as it does, a little bit, every episode)-- significantly so.  I know you think otherwise.  That's cool.

I also thought the link to the info regarding Campbells stages of the hero very interesting.  I take it,from the tone in your earlier post, that you thought it sort of meaningless or too vague or full of sh*t in general, but I really thought it full of interesting thought.

Finally, yes, Guts has always been a bit above normal in his abilities (I meant that jokingly).... he still seemed like a "normal" person to me.  I simply saw a parallel between the typical back stories of super hero's and Guts back story, which was something I hadn't seen before.  Perhaps that has always been obvious to you, or perhaps you still don't see it.  I can't tell.

I guess we just disagree on everything today.  :)  Oh well. :guts:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 25, 2006, 03:12:47 PM
Geez man, I know that was the front page of the site..... ::chuckle:: ::sigh::

Well at least there's one thing you know then. :schierke: And do you know when it was the frontpage, or who colored it? Sorry but I'm just curious since that seems to be so obvious to you, surprisingly so.

I'm simply saying that pose, with the mast, seemed particularly like a Superman pose.

That's not simply what you said. Nobody disagreed with that (every other poster in this thread said so...), just with the rest. It sure looks heroic to protect people from a burning mast that's falling on them, and to do it using pure physical strength can easily be reminiscent of Superman's classic adventures. Who would disagree with that?

Perhaps I was influenced by the "Batman-like" mask/ helmet at the end... in regards to thinking about superheroes.

Yeah, or perhaps it was by the fact people talked about the superhero likeliness just before you posted? It doesn't really matter in any case, I don't think that needs to be dragged on.

I still hold that the helmet looks different now (as it does, a little bit, every episode)-- significantly so.

You didn't actually comment about the helmet looking different, you just said he had never been conscious while wearing it, which is wrong, and recently that the situation with the mask felt different from what Guts had done before while wearing it. However I did say so, specifically that it almost always looks different (even from one panel to another), and that I didn't think it was significant here. But if you think othewise, maybe you could specify in what it significantly differs (if possible, something that hasn't been said yet) as well as what you think should be considered significant? Please enlighten me.

I also thought the link to the info regarding Campbells stages of the hero very interesting.

Well, good for you I guess. I can't say I'm surprised though.

Guts has always been a bit above normal in his abilities (I meant that jokingly).... he still seemed like a "normal" person to me.

I think it's obvious Guts is more than "a bit" different from normal people. And I'm not just talking about his abilities but his life in general. There's really hardly anything normal about him.

I simply saw a parallel between the typical back stories of super hero's and Guts back story, which was something I hadn't seen before.  Perhaps that has always been obvious to you, or perhaps you still don't see it.  I can't tell.

Then I guess you should re-read my former post, because I already answered... It's just nothing new, but then again I don't think it'd be correct to say that Guts has a typical backstory either without oversimplifying it so...

Anyway like I said I'd be grateful if we didn't drag this on for too long, there are other (more interesting) topics that could be discussed here.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 25, 2006, 04:54:28 PM
I loved Daiba this ep =).  He's just a grumpy old man that happens to be a powerful magician ("Young people these days..." ... "Hoho, it seems you are quite tough. Something we old people can't mimic"). I'm glad Miura didn't make him another generic Kushan,with a flat, bad-guy personality.  Then again, I guess I should expect no less from the creator  :miura:

I'm interested in Schierke's comment about his ability to create the cyclone in such little time, and with such a brief incantation.  It reminded me of the difference between Wizards and Sorcerors in D&D (a Wizard learns magic through studies/books, while the Sorceror's magic is innate).  But perhaps that's just a superficial assertion... I have a feeling the nature of Daiba's magic differs in many other ways.

Anyone else want to join the Daiba fan club?  If we get enough on the boat, maybe I'll make a Daiba emoticon. Though, I have no idea what the emotion would be...

PS: Digging his nails into his hands?  :???: XD
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: yota821 on March 25, 2006, 05:28:30 PM
I love sorcerors, they're my fave in D&D.  :casca:


I have no idea how the kushan language works, or what the symbol that Daiba is apparently pronouncing stands for, but I wonder if it goes beyond just Ganishka controlling or empowering Daiba from afar.  Perhaps we'll get a better glimpse on how the fog/mist works??
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Wereallmad on March 25, 2006, 08:13:52 PM
I'd vote for one like  :???: but with sanskrit popping out of his head.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 25, 2006, 11:09:07 PM
Anyone else want to join the Daiba fan club?  If we get enough on the boat, maybe I'll make a Daiba emoticon.

I'm officially in. :void:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 26, 2006, 01:02:42 AM
It would be cool to have a daiba emoticon, however I"m not sure what I'd use it for.  Maybe a "come kill me/bring it on" style ala Aaz's sig.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 26, 2006, 01:18:06 AM
Daiba fan club. Sure, sounds good to me. Yet, I have a bad feeling about Daiba's remaining life expectancy. Guts and co aren't likely to leave him rampaging about in Vritannis, unless he overpowers them and forces them into fleeing.

So assuming Daiba and Schierke are at the same experience level, Daiba would know less spells but could cast them more often? -_- I would draw some more parallels here - maybe something like how Aes Sedai do a lot of hand weaving while Wise Ones focus on the essentials, or how Negi eventually learns no-incantation spells. Of course, it could be a totally different source of magic alltogether - something related to apostles, or evil spirits, or just to the Emperor.

I guess we're basically in the dark until Schierke comments on Daiba's magic during/after the fight. At the very least there should be some internal monologue coming up from her, right?  It would also be nice if Schierke would get a power-up from watching this fight, but I think that won't happen - Daiba's way of casting spells doesn't seem to respect elementals very much. At a wild guess, I'd say his way is more like holding them in a choke hold. But everything's on the table right now I guess (Isn't it always like that? ^_^).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 26, 2006, 01:40:50 AM
Daiba fan club. Sure, sounds good to me. Yet, I have a bad feeling about Daiba's remaining life expectancy. Guts and co aren't likely to leave him rampaging about in Vritannis, unless he overpowers them and forces them into fleeing.
Even when (if) he dies, we of his army will always remember our great leader. Viva la Daiba.

Quote
Nerdy Robert Jordan stuff...
Well, I really didn't mean the D&D comparison THAT literally  :serpico: Just that the means by which Schierke and Daiba cast their magic seem to be different.

Quote
Of course, it could be a totally different source of magic alltogether - something related to apostles, or evil spirits, or just to the Emperor. Daiba's way of casting spells doesn't seem to respect elementals very much. At a wild guess, I'd say his way is more like holding them in a choke hold. But everything's on the table right now I guess (Isn't it always like that? ^_^).
Well, it's anyone's guess at this point.  He meditates a bit before each casting, but I personally don't think he's consulting with elementals (if he was familiar with elemental summoning, the fire wheel adaptation wouldn't have suprised him, I don't think).  While it could be unrelated, he sure was bogarting that hookah while on the boat in ep. 243.   Maybe he becomes "one" with nature using some special herbs?  :guts:

PS: CnC, I'm working on the Daiba taunt as an emoticon... but I make no promises. It's difficult to cram that much into such a tiny image (25px height max). So, it may be different by the end.  As always, help is always greatly appreciated with this sort of project.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 26, 2006, 01:48:11 AM
While it could be unrelated, he sure was bogarting that hookah while on the boat in ep. 243.   Maybe he becomes "one" with nature using some special herbs?  :guts:

You inhale enough ganishka you're bound to be high as a kite.

PS: CnC, I'm working on the Daiba taunt as an emoticon... but I make no promises.

Hehe, cool
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 26, 2006, 01:56:44 AM
"Nerdy Robert Jordan stuff"
:-P

Wait, that makes you a nerd for recognizing it, too   :miura: :serpico:

The "oneness" theory sounds kind of like GTA:SA... and if you know what scene and character I'm thinking of _this_ time, then you're a real nerd (but there's nothing wrong with that, per se)

(I am ;)) Looking forward to the emoticon - I don't have any artistic skills to help out, but good luck.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 26, 2006, 04:06:02 AM
What were you meaning by "wizard"?  I think this discussion up earlier-- like a year or two ago-- about different stages of growth.  Can you elaborate on this again?  It sounds very interesting to me.

Well you can read the thread that Az posted.

The stages of growth were one of the reasons I predicted that Casca would end up following a different path from Guts when/if she wakes up. In other words, she won't want revenge against Griffith.

So they can be useful in understanding some of the over-arching character development. But, like all theories, it is only useful in its predictive value.

Check out Joseph Cambell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, good stuff. Unless you think Miura is somehow less amazing if he is influenced by our mythological legacy and doesn't draw his work whole cloth from the ether. :???:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 26, 2006, 04:54:43 AM



(http://skullknight.net/yabbse/Smileys/Berserk/daiba.gif)
Bring it.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 26, 2006, 05:03:43 AM
lookin' good there, walter.  A worthy addition to the list of emoticons
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 26, 2006, 05:44:32 AM
I'm interested in Schierke's comment about his ability to create the cyclone in such little time, and with such a brief incantation.  It reminded me of the difference between Wizards and Sorcerors in D&D (a Wizard learns magic through studies/books, while the Sorceror's magic is innate).  But perhaps that's just a superficial assertion... I have a feeling the nature of Daiba's magic differs in many other ways.

Shades of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Perhaps Miura drew inspiration from the Atharva veda for the schema underlying Diaba's magical power.

Here are some quotes(reminiscent of the battle of Vritannis?):

VIII, 8. Battle-charm.
3. Tear asunder those (enemies), O asvattha (ficus religiosa), devour (khâda) them, O! khadira (acacia catechu) in lively style! Like the tâgadbhanga (ricinus communis) they shall be broken (bhagyantâm), may the vadhaka (a certain kind of tree) slay them with his weapons (vadhaih)!
15. The Gandharvas and Apsaras, the serpents and the gods, holy men and (deceased) Fathers, the visible and invisible (beings), do I impel, that they shall slay yonder army!

XI, 9. Prayer to Arbudi and Nyarbudi for help in battle.
16. (And also make them see) her that strides upon the mist, the mutilated one, who dwells with the mutilated; the vapoury spooks that are hidden, and the Gandharvas and Apsaras, the serpents, and other brood, and the Rakshas!
17. (And also) the spooks with fourfold teeth, black teeth, bloody faces, who are inherently frightful, and terrifying!


It goes on with human sacrifice, yadda yadda...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atharva_Veda
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Smith on March 26, 2006, 07:48:12 AM
Another awesome topic... Thanks Aaz... I really love you  :SK:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 26, 2006, 10:50:56 AM
Daiba fan club. Sure, sounds good to me. Yet, I have a bad feeling about Daiba's remaining life expectancy.

Yeah, I don't think he'll be there to see volume 32. :void:

So assuming Daiba and Schierke are at the same experience level

I wouldn't say they've got the same experience (and I'll ignore the possibility that you were referring to "RPG experience"), Daiba's much older than her and has probably seen a lot more things/battles as well as used magic for longer in general. However like I said in the past, I think he loses because he's somehow uneducated in comparison. Like Wally said I don't think he uses elemental spirits at all (or even know of their existence?), that would also explain why he can cast so fast, that and the fact he's got experience.

My guess is that he primarily relies on Ganishka's power and uses sorcery more akin to the darkness that shrouded him in episode 270 than to Schierke's elemental magic. Using that energy to interact with the astral world he could get that kind of amplified result (whirlpools) in the material world. The real question to me is whether he only draws power from Ganishka or has some abilities of his own too.

(http://skullknight.net/yabbse/Smileys/Berserk/daiba.gif)
Bring it.

Kick ass. :SK:

Perhaps Miura drew inspiration from the Atharva veda for the schema underlying Diaba's magical power.

He used quite a bit of elements from Indian mythology to design the Kushans but I don't think it goes as far as directly interpreting sacred Hindu texts (especially since he uses Buddhist as well as Hinduist references in the manga). These are too vague to relate to Daiba past the "evil monsters and scary sorcery" factor IMHO.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 26, 2006, 02:22:21 PM
I wouldn't say they've got the same experience (and I'll ignore the possibility that you were referring to "RPG experience"), ...
...The real question to me is whether he only draws power from Ganishka or has some abilities of his own too.
Oops. As a matter of fact, I was referring to rpg experience, just to prolong the analogy.  :serpico:

Otherwise, of course, there's the age difference. Plus, Schierke is still somewhat of an apprentice, while Daiba is a magician and apparently a general in Ganishka's army - the assumption being that half-baked apprentices don't get to lead armies.

We have some other indicators for apostle-powered magic, I guess. Apart from all the fog, there's also Ganishka and his powers, the girl who thought herself an elf, and the egg at the mock eclipse (leading to the goat and the priest). This might be obvious (and might have been stated before, though I've seen nothing about it in this thread iirc), but I guess Daiba was infused with Ganishka's power roughly the same way the priest and the goat was. The fog rising from the dead casters at the shore is also an indication for that.

I have no concrete ideas on the other question, whether Daiba has some innate abilities... assuming Ganishka's been around for a while (this may not be the case), he may have raised children infused with his spirit to be sorcerers. Then the distinction becomes blurry. At the very least, for Schierke's magic, there seems to be no limitation (aka required spark), since her elemental magic can be taught. If Daiba was a "corrupted" sorcerer, then chances are he would have recognized Schierke's elemental magic, but he plainly said that it's different from theirs. Given the production methods of the "demon army", it seems more likely that all of their magic is derived from Ganishka or at least from apostles.

Sorry for the ramble; maybe some of that made some sense. I hope. -_-;;;
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 26, 2006, 04:02:56 PM
I have no concrete ideas on the other question, whether Daiba has some innate abilities... assuming Ganishka's been around for a while (this may not be the case), he may have raised children infused with his spirit to be sorcerers. Then the distinction becomes blurry. At the very least, for Schierke's magic, there seems to be no limitation (aka required spark), since her elemental magic can be taught. If Daiba was a "corrupted" sorcerer, then chances are he would have recognized Schierke's elemental magic, but he plainly said that it's different from theirs. Given the production methods of the "demon army", it seems more likely that all of their magic is derived from Ganishka or at least from apostles.

Sorry for the ramble; maybe some of that made some sense. I hope. -_-;;;

There really isn't enough info to speculate concretely as to Daiba's origins.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rickert on March 26, 2006, 05:12:37 PM
thanx for the scans, I'm a bit late I see..heh!

Anyway: I really like this pic..(photoshopped it a bit for you people)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/rickbeentjes2/09.jpg)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 26, 2006, 05:16:50 PM
There really isn't enough info to speculate concretely as to Daiba's origins.

Yeah, I know.  :judo: But hopefully something will come to light eventually, with luck during the next few episodes -then we can debate in meaningfully. For now, just throwing some ideas out there.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 26, 2006, 05:47:37 PM
Quote
He used quite a bit of elements from Indian mythology to design the Kushans but I don't think it goes as far as directly interpreting sacred Hindu texts (especially since he uses Buddhist as well as Hinduist references in the manga). These are too vague to relate to Daiba past the "evil monsters and scary sorcery" factor IMHO.

He's borrowed whole cloth from Qabalah, Jungian Mythology and Tarot for the western magic. It stands to reason he is also drawing from Indian magical schema for the oriental magic. One clue is that the Atharva veda was condemned for its association with human sacrifice. I don't know enough about Indian magic to comment on the underlying architecture although it seems to be just a collection of spells.

As for the Buddhist references... were they in relation to the magic of Ganisha? I have heard that in India there are people who pursue a quas-buddhist practice in order to use magic.

BTW, I have lost my archives. Has Guts left eye ever been visible in the armor before?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 26, 2006, 06:54:20 PM
BTW, I have lost my archives. Has Guts left eye ever been visible in the armor before?
In volume 27, after being woken up by Schierke but before the mask retreats, you can see it a couple of times. You can kind of see it in volume 28 shortly after he gave in, but it's more of a spiritual image. Generally speaking we can never see Guts eye when he's given in to the beast (3 times so far, if I count right).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 26, 2006, 08:16:07 PM
In volume 27, after being woken up by Schierke but before the mask retreats, you can see it a couple of times. You can kind of see it in volume 28 shortly after he gave in, but it's more of a spiritual image. Generally speaking we can never see Guts eye when he's given in to the beast (3 times so far, if I count right).

The other question is... was Guts' eye clear or was it pupil-less and swirly?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 26, 2006, 08:27:36 PM
The other question is... was Guts' eye clear or was it pupil-less and swirly?
Well, it was clear in vol 27. Full of intent or purpose, actually, since he was going to save Casca. But, Guts was already "conscious", so I don't think that counts for much. It is swirly in vol 28. You can't actually see it in the armor, but there's a separate image of the eye with the shadow of the armor on it.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 27, 2006, 05:59:12 PM
As a matter of fact, I was referring to rpg experience, just to prolong the analogy.  :serpico:

I thought that was it, but to be honest I don't think it needed any prolongation.

Plus, Schierke is still somewhat of an apprentice, while Daiba is a magician and apparently a general in Ganishka's army

She's a young witch but I wouldn't call her an apprentice anymore, she's still learning but she's on her own now, even having an apprentice herself. :badbone:

We have some other indicators for apostle-powered magic, I guess. Apart from all the fog, there's also Ganishka and his powers, the girl who thought herself an elf, and the egg at the mock eclipse (leading to the goat and the priest).

I think you're taking some shortcuts a bit too fast here. First, I don't see how Ganishka and his powers differ from the fog, the fog itself being part of his powers for all we know. Second, you mention Rochine and the Beherit-apostle as if they used "magic" like Ganishka does. I don't think that's the case. These two (and others like the Snail Count) made people into pseudo-apostles using supernatural means, but I don't think it's exactly the same as what Ganishka's doing with his casters. Actually I would already differentiate the Beherit-apostle from the others as he was a very special case, but that's another debate. To put it simply, I think apostle-based powers should be isolated from the rest of what we've been calling magic up to now, because they're quite dissimilar in essence.

The point here is that Ganishka doesn't transfer "apostle-ish" powers to his men, but rather the ability for them to use some of his magic and control the monsters he creates. There's a fundamental difference in that regard between what the Count did to Zondark or what Rochine did to her "children" and Daiba's relation to Ganishka (the Beherit-apostle's case is even more different). The most obvious element would be that Daiba seems to still be human, like the other casters we've seen so far. That also ties to the fact that I don't believe Ganishka's sorcery to be a direct result of his apostlehood. Not only are there several physical/material elements hinting at it, but his attitude and speech to other apostles makes it clear that he despises them for having "only" been infused with a bit of evil and trying to act big. That makes him look to me as a self-made man, for whom becoming an apostle was just a step among others on his ascension to power. This perfectly fits his psychology and would explain his rebellion against Griffith too.

This might be obvious (and might have been stated before, though I've seen nothing about it in this thread iirc), but I guess Daiba was infused with Ganishka's power roughly the same way the priest and the goat was. The fog rising from the dead casters at the shore is also an indication for that.

Well now that's a bit harder. Like I said I don't believe the fog to be a simple manifestation of Ganishka's "apostle powers", rather I think it relates to his magic. Mozgus and the goat didn't need any intervention from the Beherit-apostle once they were "infected", and when they died nothing showed they were transformed by him, that can't be related to the Kushan casters always keeping in touch with the fog (and through it, to Ganishka). That being said, I see two possibilities here: either Ganishka confers power to his subordinates exclusively using sorcery, or he does it in a mix of sorcery and apostle-related abilities. For example he could use his ability as an apostle to bestow powers upon others to allow them to use his magic. I like the latter hypothesis more and I think we'll eventually get to witness him combining these 2 notions again (first time was for the creation of the Daka) sooner or later anyway.

In conclusion I'd reiterate that there's more to Ganishka than what we first thought when he was introduced, he's not just an apostle commanding armies but a complex and resourceful character, and I don't think we've seen all of what he has in stock yet.

He's borrowed whole cloth from Qabalah, Jungian Mythology and Tarot for the western magic.

I wouldn't say that. References to the Kabbalah/Tarot are sparse and superficial in the manga, they're completely out of context and hardly have any meaning in regard to the original. When Schierke summoned the 4 elemental kings she used among other things a small part of an incantation from Kabbalah/Golden Dawn ("Ateh Malkuth Ve Geburah Ve Gedulah Le Olam"; meaning "Thou art the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory for ever"), and then there's a place called the Qliphoth and Slan alludes to the other God Hand members floating while immaterial in their "favorite Sephirah". These elements in Berserk are quasi-unrelated to the originals: the Qliphoth in Berserk is just a place populated with Chimimôryô, creatures from traditional Japanese folklore, where Slan dwells and that she calls her womb. The fact it's supposed to be composed of Qliphah or anything else is disregarded. It's the same with Schierke's incantation, not only is it very partially reproduced and made just a portion of her incantation (the rest being unrelated), but she's not really following the Torah's commandments either nor applying the procedure to ward off demons (the Kabbalistic purpose of that "spell", she's supposed to use a steel dagger, call old Judaic names and all that).

Furthermore, the concept of divine beings associated with cardinal points is a very old and fundamental notion in Asia, going back to early China, and the four elemental kings themselves have been associated with Buddhist principles in Berserk (regarding the elements composing the world, etc). The elemental part itself can also relate to old Celtic/Nordic legends and diverse occult beliefs (like say, Enochian rituals) but doesn't really connect in Berserk to what the incantation is originally about in Kabbalah past the generic nature of the "evil-banishing" spell. It should also be noted that Schierke and Flora's magic makes references to other various folklores, alchemy and occult works (even a small one from "The Key of Solomon"), mostly European stuff but with notable exceptions. There's the case of Undine for example (German mythology), but also the recent Wheel of Fire which is clearly a reference to Buddhism. But what's important is that they're all lightly and freely used, much like what Miura does with historical references (i.e. Tudor, Gaiseric), and while they add a nice touch of detail to the whole thing, they're not heavy inspirations, nor are they reproduced verbatim. The same would go for Rakshas who's not represented very faithfully to traditional portrayals, or other elements of the story with more diffuse possible sources of inspiration.

I don't think it's correct to sum it up like you did (sounds like you're minimizing what Miura does by implying he merely copies/pastes stuff from existing sources), and I've yet to see Miura borrowing heavily enough from a unique source and staying truthful to its actual context for your assertion to be valid. Like I said, the references are often (always?) rather superficial, much like Daiba talking about Guts in Indian terms (Kṣhatriya of Durga) in this episode, or the words he utters while casting his spells. As for Jungian mythology, I'd take it as a joke if it wasn't from you. I'm actually curious to know what you exactly mean, mythological archetypes present in the collective unconscious? If so, and knowing that Jung based this on existing mythologies, concepts, legends, it'd be quite audacious (or is it pretentious?) to affirm boldly that Miura borrowed from it instead of all the widely known sources that Jung himself based his work on... Especially since that seems to strictly be an assumption to me. And I'd like to know in what they specifically relate to each other past these generic and broad archetypes, which by definition are supposed to apply to "everybody" (and are unconscious reflections of the author's mind). As long as someone's writing an epic story, it should be more or less encompassed in it... But that isn't really the topic here, I guess I just got carried away. Better stop now before people quit reading the thread altogether. In the end I think we can all agree that Miura's been using a lot of diverse references in Berserk, and the talent with which he modifies, adapts them to his story and blend them together is part of what makes it so interesting.

It stands to reason he is also drawing from Indian magical schema for the oriental magic. One clue is that the Atharva veda was condemned for its association with human sacrifice. I don't know enough about Indian magic to comment on the underlying architecture although it seems to be just a collection of spells.

Well like I said in my previous post, while he's obviously making references to Indian mythology and using some of its elements, I just don't think the parts of the Atharvaveda you quoted relate to Daiba's current display of sorcery much except for the broad Hindu connotation. Atharvaveda means "the Veda of the Wise and the Old", and it's composed of 731 hymns: incantations, songs, poems, charms, prayers. It's primarily about curative stuff, how to cure diseases, fevers, jaundice, etc, using herbs or amulets (and sometimes how to ward off the demons that cause them), but there are also some parts about the appreciation of natural beauty, yoga, social and political structures (like how to protect your husband from other women...), human physiology or atonement for sins. The battle charms are apparently minor.

Anyway, all this stuff doesn't seem to correspond to Daiba's kind of spellcasting (i.e. pronouncing a single word, remakable enough for Schierke to comment on it). I don't know about human sacrifices, but those that people referred to in Berserk were shown: women being fed to Pishacha and used to give birth to the Daka. Nothing currently hints at other human sacrifices being used for anything (like powering Daiba's magic), even though that remains a possibility. But then again, human sacrifices existed in more than one ancient cult, so I don't think using that as a clue will lead you anywhere (although it could be interesting to look at black/forbidden magic in general). Which brings me to the point that as long as Daiba doesn't tell the group that he's using 3 sacred Sankara stones to get his magic or tries to remove Guts' heart from his chest with his bare hands, I'd rather not see it compared to Indiana Jones...

As for the Buddhist references... were they in relation to the magic of Ganisha?

They're in relation to everything in Berserk: Karma, Inga (causality), various magical concepts (e.g. Schierke paralysing people, Farnese wanting to be taught about "the nature of the world", the way Flora calls the God Hand, the Wheel of Fire elemental), Farnese' talk of retribution when she protects Casca... It's really all over it (so much for the "western" magic, eh?), even in the etymology of the words used. In the present case, Daiba's name itself could very well be a derivative of a famous Buddhist villain's for example (I posted about it in the Episode 270 thread).

BTW, I have lost my archives. Has Guts left eye ever been visible in the armor before?

What, you don't have the manga? Or you lost your volumes? Anyway yes, it has been, and it was perfectly clear like darkbane said (http://aazealh.net/Divers/Berserkarmor-eye.jpg). In volume 28 it's shown as "unclear" because he's seeing through the armor's Od (his perception is altered), just like in episode 270.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 27, 2006, 06:56:59 PM
I wouldn't say that. References to the Kabbalah/Tarot are sparse and superficial in the manga, they're completely out of context and hardly have any meaning in regard to the original. When Schierke summoned the 4 elemental kings she used among other things a small part of an incantation from Kabbalah/Golden Dawn ("Ateh Malkuth Ve Geburah Ve Gedulah Le Olam"; meaning "Thou art the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory for ever"), and then there's a place called the Qliphoth and Slan alludes to the other God Hand members floating while immaterial in their "favorite Sephirah". These elements in Berserk are quasi-unrelated to the originals: the Qliphoth in Berserk is just a place populated with Chimimôryô, creatures from traditional Japanese folklore, where Slan dwells and that she calls her womb.

The Qliphoth are the shadow Sephirah.

Quote
Furthermore, the concept of divine beings associated with cardinal points is a very old and fundamental notion in Asia, going back to early China, and the four elemental kings themselves have been associated with Buddhist principles in Berserk (regarding the elements composing the world, etc).

Cardinal points. Directions. Not elements.

As for the rest of it. Sorry, I don't have time to respond. Nor the inclination to go through all my magical references so I'll conceed the point to you (whatever point it was.)

Final points.

The Indiana Jones reference was a joke.

If Muria did not intend to use the underlying significance of the western mysticism he alludes to, why would he name it so specifically? I'm afriad if he's going to go so far as to use specific names I'd loose more respect for him if he's bandying them about to sound all "occidental and obscure" then using some deep and well thought out reasoning for their use (thus tieing them tightly to his plot.)

Finally, if you believe Jung is a joke, yet the elements underlying his system are valid, why the problem with applying them to Berserk? Jung may not have invented the mythological threads, but he codified them...

(I'm waiting till the later volumes are translated and brought to North America to purchase them. I have the earlier volumes. I have been archiving the scans you make available on this site since 2002(minus a few months when life got too hectic), but I've suffered several crashes since then.)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 27, 2006, 07:13:03 PM
Finally, if you believe Jung is a joke, yet the elements underlying his system are valid, why the problem with applying them to Berserk? Jung may not have invented the mythological threads, but he codified them...
Personally, I just don't think you can learn very much by applying generic archetypes to a series in so specific a manner.  To me, applying archetypes like "hero" to Guts is about as accurate as summarizing World War II as "a series of disputes among major countries."  Sure, both are true statements but... not exactly insightful.  Furthermore, they're too broad to use as a credible source to speculate future scenarios.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 27, 2006, 07:33:14 PM
Personally, I just don't think you can learn very much by applying generic archetypes to a series in so specific a manner.  To me, applying archetypes like "hero" to Guts is about as accurate as summarizing World War II as "a series of disputes among major countries."  Sure, both are true statements but... not exactly insightful.  Furthermore, they're too broad to use as a credible source to speculate future scenarios.

The speculation I presented at the time was that Guts was following the Innocent-Orphan-Wanderer-Warrior/Wizard/Altruist-Transcendant cycle of heroic development.

Each catagory on that cycle has its own motivations and qualities as well as poses a particular challenge to move on to the next stage.

To summarize what I said... Guts has been oscillating between Wanderer(fighting for fighting's sake) and Warrior(fighting for others.) Each time he becomes a warrior he faces a situation where the people he's fighting for reject him (That's the challenge to move past being a warrior). He then fails the challenge and goes back to being a wanderer.

In the story arch, he's a warrior again, fighting for his posse, but in the future he will be facing a profound rejection by one of them.(According to the cycle.) That will be the challenge he faces. Will he
go back to being a wanderer or move on from being a warrior to the next stage of his development?

I figured it will be Casca who rejects him after she's healed.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 27, 2006, 07:44:21 PM
The Qliphoth are the shadow Sephirah.

Well, not really. The Qliphoth are said to be the opposite of the Sephiroth in some interpretations, but they're not "shadow Sephiroth", merely the representation of evil/darkness. They could be viewed as anti-Sephiroth at best. I've never seen them referred to as "shadow Sephiroth" before, but I'm not a Kabbalah expert so I won't just affirm that this interpretation doesn't exist. However there's still the problem of the Qliphoth in Berserk being a single place in the astral world, and Slan mentioning the Sephiroth being associated with evil creatures (pretty much the opposite of what the Sephiroth are about, bringing light and all).

Cardinal points. Directions. Not elements.

No, they also relate to elements, that's what I meant by "the elements composing the world". And the Elemental Kings relate each to a cardinal point.

As for the rest of it. Sorry, I don't have time to respond.

Not a problem, don't worry. I think it's as well as such.

The Indiana Jones reference was a joke.

I see, sounded serious to me, plus it was also in the first post (deleted one). My bad.

If Muria did not intend to use the underlying significance of the western mysticism he alludes to, why would he name it so specifically? I'm afriad if he's going to go so far as to use specific names I'd loose more respect for him if he's bandying them about to sound all "occidental and obscure" then using some deep and well thought out reasoning for their use (thus tieing them tightly to his plot.)

Like I said, I think they're just superficial, it's not like I have a personal interest in the matter, but the way everything is mixed, distorted and generally doesn't relate much to the original makes me pretty confident about it. It's just adapted to the Berserk universe, I know I take these more as nice references than indications set in stone on the magic in Berserk and allowing us to define the rest of it. On the other hand I don't think he's just trying to "make it sound all occidental or obscure" either, more like slapping names on stuff in Berserk resembling concepts/things from our world, or adapted from these same elements. It doesn't have to be just all black or all white.

Finally, if you believe Jung is a joke, yet the elements underlying his system are valid, why the problem with applying them to Berserk? Jung may not have invented the mythological threads, but he codified them...

I didn't say Jung was a joke, just that I would have taken the idea of "Jungian mythology" being an inspiration source for Miura (instead of just applying to it like it's supposed to apply to everything else) as a joke if it hadn't been from you. Jung "just" associated a lot of things together (from mythology to existing religions to schools of thought to scientific theories like Darwin's) to define his archetypes, present in all cultures and all over the world (through the collective unconscious). He wasn't the first to attempt that but his analytical psychology and the depth of his researchs (like studying flying saucers...) popularized the concept. I'm not saying he was a hack... Just that I doubt his works to be an inspiration source for Berserk over the traditional myths it's itself built on.

The speculation I presented at the time was that Guts was following the Innocent-Orphan-Wanderer-Warrior/Wizard/Altruist-Transcendant cycle of heroic development.

Didn't you somehow adapt that to Berserk though? I'd like to know the exact source for these precise cycles, just out of curiosity. From what I read of the "Hero with a Thousand Faces", the summary of the typical story is different and more specific:

Quote
The hero is introduced in his ordinary world, where he receives the call to adventure. He is reluctant at first but is encouraged by the wise old man or woman to cross the first threshold, where he encounters tests and helpers. He reaches the innermost cave, where he endures the supreme ordeal. He seizes the sword or the treasure and is pursued on the road back to his world. He is resurrected and transformed by his experience. He returns to his ordinary world with a treasure, boon, or elixir to benefit his world.

That may be more at its place in your old thread though.

I figured it will be Casca who rejects him after she's healed.

Yeah, you've figured that just like everybody else did 6 years ago.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 27, 2006, 08:02:08 PM
Well, not really. The Qliphoth are said to be the opposite of the Sephiroth in some interpretations, but they're not "shadow Sephiroth", merely the representation of evil/darkness. They could be viewed as anti-Sephiroth at best. I've never seen them referred to as "shadow Sephiroth" before, but I'm not a Kabbalah expert so I won't just affirm that this interpretation doesn't exist. However there's still the problem of the Qliphoth in Berserk being a single place in the astral world, and Slan mentioning the Sephiroth being associated with evil creatures (pretty much the opposite of what the Sephiroth are about, bringing light and all).

The Qliphoth are the excesses of the Sephiroth. For instance force becoming cruelty or mercy becoming indolence.

As for Slan hanging around her favorite Qliphoth... there is an interesting parallel in western mythology. Lilith is said to govern the Qliphoth Gamaliel which is associated with Yesod. It is ranslated as "the obscene ones". The demons associated with it (If a Sephiroth is associated with an angel then the corresponding Qliphoth is associated with a devil) are said to be loathsome, corrupting "bull-men". (Yesod, is associated with the moon and thus with female sexuality.)

Two important points about Lillith's appearance. She is said to have long hair and wings. Also she is a succubi (latin tranlation == harlot). Succubi are portrayed as having bat wings. She is said to have an insatiable sexual appetite. (I've also heard(and seen) a strong association with Lillith and serpents.) I belive she has also been interpreted as a sacred prostitute to some pagan religion (but I'm not sure on this one.)

If Miura isn't looking into the actual meaning of the Qliphoth, he's making some damn accurate guesses.

Quote
I didn't say Jung was a joke, just that I would have taken the idea of "Jungian mythology" being an inspiration source for Miura (instead of just applying to it like they're supposed to apply to everything else) as a joke if it hadn't been from you. Jung just associated a lot of things together (from mythology to existing religions to schools of thought to scientific theories like Darwin's) to define his archetypes, present in all cultures and all over the world (through the collective unconscious). He wasn't the first to attempt that but his analytical psychology and the depth of his researchs (like studying flying saucers...) popularized the concept. I'm not saying he was a hack... Just that I doubt his works to be an inspiration source for Berserk over the traditional myths it's built on.

Gotcha. I meant Jung to refer to all of the deseperate elements he codified, not something distinct to him.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 27, 2006, 09:28:16 PM
The Qliphoth are the excesses of the Sephiroth. For instance force becoming cruelty or mercy becoming indolence.

Well that depends of who you ask, as far as I know the only widely accepted fact is that they represent all that is evil. They're still different from the Sephiroth though, no matter how you turn it. Separate and opposite entities, while primarily linked.

As for Slan hanging around her favorite Qliphoth...

To be exact, she was in the (one and only) Qliphoth, which in itself is in contradiction with the original meaning of the word (plural form of Qliphah). And in Berserk, the Qliphoth's dark Od is what brings all these Chimimôryô and other dark creatures to it, because they're similar in essence. She said however that the other God Hand members were probably in their favorite Sephirah.

there is an interesting parallel in western mythology. Lilith is said to govern the Qliphoth Gamaliel which is associated with Yesod. It is ranslated as "the obscene ones". The demons associated with it (If a Sephiroth is associated with an angel then the corresponding Qliphoth is associated with a devil) are said to be loathsome, corrupting "bull-men". (Yesod, is associated with the moon and thus with female sexuality.)

Uhh yeah, that would only be in the Hermetic interpretation of the Kabbalah, besides that's not really western mythology (originates from Egypt I think). Also, some of what you say seems to be from Wikipedia and I don't think it's all accurate. Usually Gamaliel ("obscene ass") is associated with Yesod and Lilith ("the woman of the night") with Malkuth. I don't have the time nor the motivation to check the description of the "obscene people" supposed to live in it, but I don't think that makes much of a point anyway, it's a stretch to relate all of this to Berserk IMHO.

Two important points about Lillith's appearance. She is said to have long hair and wings. Also she is a succubi (latin tranlation == harlot).

If you want to talk about Latin, the single form is succubus (the original Latin word is succuba). And she's only described as such in modern occultism. Anyway her origins are Assyro-Babylonian and she was really just seen as a harvest goddess back then, later as the goddess of the dark moon (Greek myth), or a simple night demon even later. There are so many different representations, definitions and beliefs concerning her that insisting on one won't prove much. In Kabbalah she's originally simply described as the first wife of Adam... She was indeed given wings and "became evil" but the relation stops pretty much stops here.

Succubi are portrayed as having bat wings. She is said to have an insatiable sexual appetite. (I've also heard(and seen) a strong association with Lillith and serpents.)

Yeah (and I confirm the snakes thing), but that's nothing new. All it means is that Slan's design was based on the succubus archetype (;)) (though her hair isn't that long and is more likely to be inspired by the slans in the eponym novel), and we've all known that for years. Also, succubi are actually said to be immaterial and able to take any shape, although only taking one when hunting their sleeping preys, appearing in their dreams or such. They're basically incorporeal female vampires.

Anyway, if you want to orient things that way, why not speak about the incubi in Berserk? You know, the funny looking one-eyed octopuses that regularly haunt Guts. Like I've been saying, the references are too diverse and their insertion in the story not rigorous enough for me to give them that much credit.

If Miura isn't looking into the actual meaning of the Qliphoth, he's making some damn accurate guesses.

Nobody's saying he made any guess, but I still don't see how that's anything more than superficial or how it could alone seriously (in depth) link the Berserk cosmology to the Kabbalah. You're entitled to your opinion in any case and I'm not trying to convince you, so I won't insist on the subject. Besides the discussion's starting to become seriously off topic.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Wereallmad on March 27, 2006, 10:08:47 PM
I gotta side with Aaz, Typhon. That is assiming Aaz is just saying that the connections to traditional mythology (both western and eastern) should not be looked into too deeply, because the association are only superficial or allegorical.

It's just like how, visually, miura borrows elements from traditional mythology, but they are only superficial as well. Such as Zodd being a minotaur, it's no reason to assume he originates from the island of Crete and was originally a pet of king Mynos. Infact, Zodd can only really be described as 'minotaur-like'. Wyald, in his apostle form has a distinctly 'Yeti-like' appearance, but you would not call him the sasquatch himself. Grunbeld definately resembles a Dragon, yet we know that he does not lie in a cave hoarding precious jewels and virgins, nor is he The Dragon of Hewbrew origins.

Remember, that Berserk does not take place in any real country or time period (though it draws inspiration from many REAL time periods and locations. Some that could not have exsisted at the same time.). Therefore, one should not have faith that any allusions to established philosophical and mystical elements are anything more than just that (allusions).

The practice can be compared to Final fantasy's tradition of naming compltetely unrelated cities and monsters after those found in various mythologies. For instance, the recurring characer Bahamut is a fish, in Arabic mythology, not a dragon (though, to be fair, Final Fantasy borrowed the dragon-king version of Bahamut from dungeons and dragons).

Personally, I think a lot of people read waaaaay too much into the story of Berserk. Perhaps I'm being too fair here, and in reality this discusssion is really just dissent for the sake of dissenting (read: trolling).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 27, 2006, 10:13:44 PM
That is assiming Aaz is just saying that the connections to traditional mythology (both western and eastern) should not be looked into too deeply, because the association are only superficial or allegorical.

That's pretty much it, yeah. And while I didn't mention the visual influences (for Zodd, Wyald, etc.) in this thread, I of course agree with that.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 27, 2006, 10:36:40 PM
Well that depends of who you ask, as far as I know the only widely accepted fact is that they represent all that is evil. They're still different from the Sephiroth though, no matter how you turn it. Separate and opposite entities, while primarily linked.

Dion Fortune refers to them as the "evil and averse Sephiroth, for they are not indepenent principles or factors in the cosmic scheme, but the unbalanced and destructive aspect of the Holy Stations themselves."

In other words a Qilphath is a Sephiroth taken to an unbalanced extreme. I've read other interpretations that say the same thing.

Quote
To be exact, she was in the (one and only) Qliphoth, which in itself is in contradiction with the original meaning of the word (plural form of Qliphah). And in Berserk, the Qliphoth's dark Od is what brings all these Chimimôryô and other dark creatures to it, because they're similar in essence. She said however that the other God Hand members were probably in their favorite Sephirah.

I wonder if the God Hands have a balanced aspect, the aspects appearing to Guts being only one. If a Qliproth is a Sephiroth "run amok" or badly aspected or what have you, then Slan could have been in the only Qliproth because there was only one Sephiroth that has been corrupted (currently) in the Berserk universe.

But regardless, I think I'll wait till the translation comes out in North America before I comment on 1 vs. 10 Qliphoth.

Quote
Uhh yeah, that would only be in the Hermetic interpretation of the Kabbalah, besides that's not really western mythology (originates from Egypt I think).

Well, if you get technical, then we could only talk about the original mythology of the Celts, Dorians, etc. But I figure if we consider Kabalah western... then we don't have to be so exclusive.

Quote
Also, some of what you say seems to be from Wikipedia and I don't think it's all accurate. Usually Gamaliel ("obscene ass") is associated with Yesod and Lilith ("the woman of the night") with Malkuth.

I have seen Lillith(the Qliphath) and Gamaliel closely associated with eachother. I'm guessing from what I've read that Lilith rules over Gamaliel but actually *is* Malkuth's Qliphath aspect.

Quote
There are so many different representations, definitions and beliefs concerning her that insisting on one won't prove much.

I'm interested in the version of Lilith that is associated with the Qliphoth.

Quote
In Kabbalah she's originally simply described as the first wife of Adam... She was indeed given wings and "became evil" but the relation stops pretty much stops here.

Except that she also is associated with the Qliphoth, succubi and whores.

Quote
Nobody's saying he made any guess, but I still don't see how that's anything more than superficial or how it could alone seriously (in depth) link the Berserk cosmology to the Kabbalah. You're entitled to your opinion in any case and I'm not trying to convince you, so I won't insist on the subject. Besides the discussion's starting to become seriously off topic.

Theories are only useful in their predictive value.

So I suppose a prediction would be that more Sephiroth will be corrupted by the Godhand, creating more Qliphoth, and we may end up seeing the balanced aspects of the Godhand somewhere down the line.

And that Casca will reject Guts at some point.

And now that I have that in writing... no point continuing.  :casca:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 27, 2006, 10:52:58 PM
typhon you're still basing all the presumptions on the idea that Miura is completely following existing mythos.  Whats more likely is that he's borrowing certain aspects of various mythology to weave into his own story.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 27, 2006, 10:55:50 PM
typhon you're still basing all the presumptions on the idea that Miura is completely following existing mythos.  Whats more likely is that he's borrowing certain aspects of various mythology to weave into his own story.

Yep.

And if I'm wrong you can hoist me on my petard when we're all old and grey and Miura's protege is wrapping Berserk up for him.

Not trying to be a smart-ass, just my way of saying there's no point in further discussion till Miura either gives us more to go on or doesn't.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 27, 2006, 11:19:06 PM
Dion Fortune refers to them as the "evil and averse Sephiroth, for they are not indepenent principles or factors in the cosmic scheme, but the unbalanced and destructive aspect of the Holy Stations themselves."

Well, I don't really consider her to be a more eminent source than older texts. It still stands that the Sephiroth and the Qliphoth are distinct entities. Like twins, one good and one evil. But whatever.

I wonder if the God Hands have a balanced aspect, the aspects appearing to Guts being only one. If a Qliproth is a Sephiroth "run amok" or badly aspected or what have you, then Slan could have been in the only Qliproth because there was only one Sephiroth that has been corrupted (currently) in the Berserk universe.

I don't think so, no. Actually, that seems extremely unlikely. It just doesn't correspond to the way it's described in the manga.

Well, if you get technical, then we could only talk about the original mythology of the Celts, Dorians, etc. But I figure if we consider Kabalah western...

I never said I considered the Kabbalah to be western. =) That's just a point of detail though.

I'm interested in the version of Lilith that is associated with the Qliphoth.

Yeah, the marginal, anedoctic version. That's pretty convenient, but if that's how you want it... Fine.

Except that she also is associated with the Qliphoth, succubi and whores.

In older texts (stuff in the Talmud and such) she's barely mentioned and just associated to the popular succubus imagery (more a rapist than a prostitute, really), not with the Qliphoth. These notions came later.

So I suppose a prediction would be that more Sephiroth will be corrupted by the Godhand, creating more Qliphoth, and we may end up seeing the balanced aspects of the Godhand somewhere down the line.

Yeah, right. I think you should read that part of the manga before speculating about it.

Not trying to be a smart-ass, just my way of saying there's no point in further discussion till Miura either gives us more to go on or doesn't.

Well it's settled then, let's just leave it at that. See you in 2032. :SK:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 27, 2006, 11:20:13 PM
Slan could have been in the only Qliproth because there was only one Sephiroth that has been corrupted (currently) in the Berserk universe.

But regardless, I think I'll wait till the translation comes out in North America before I comment on 1 vs. 10 Qliphoth.

...more Sephiroth will be corrupted by the Godhand, creating more Qliphoth, and we may end up seeing the balanced aspects of the Godhand somewhere down the line.
I think you've misunderstood Berserk's Qliphoth.  It was in existence before Griffith's reincarnation (thus before the God Hand could have "corrupted" it).  It's the Astral realm where Nightmare Creatures gather and are created.  It wasn't some happy forest where creatures lived in peace before the God Hand came along and crapped all over it.  The only change that's occurred over the past few years is that the barrier between the worlds is growing thinner (i.e. Trolls. Ogre and Kelpie in Enoch).

That being said, I'd buy your theory if it were less weighed down with Kabbalistic terminology. If by "corruption" and "creating more Qliphoth" you mean that the barrier between the Physical and Astral worlds will continue to become thinner, then, why not just say so?

As for a balanced God Hand... are you talking about a GOOD Hand?  :void:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 27, 2006, 11:28:32 PM
I think you've misunderstood Berserk's Qliphoth.  It was in existence before Griffith's reincarnation (thus before the God Hand could have "corrupted" it).  It's the Astral realm where Nightmare Creatures gather and are created.  It wasn't some happy forest where creatures lived in peace before the God Hand came along and crapped all over it.  The only change that's occurred over the past few years is that the barrier between the worlds is growing thinner (i.e. Trolls. Ogre and Kelpie in Enoch).

That being said, I'd buy your theory if it were less weighed down with Kabbalistic terminology. If by "corruption" and "creating more Qliphoth" you mean that the barrier between the Physical and Astral worlds will continue to become thinner, then, why not just say so?

As for a balanced God Hand... are you talking about a GOOD Hand?  :void:

When I get the relevant volumes(with the official translations) I might feel capable of more extensive comment. As it stands I read those episodes related to the Qliphoth years ago and I've probably forgotten more then I remember.

As for "creating more Qliphoth"... maybe a better way of saying it would be "manifesting more Qliphoth in the material realm."
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on March 27, 2006, 11:48:42 PM
As for "creating more Qliphoth"... maybe a better way of saying it would be "manifesting more Qliphoth in the material realm."
Wait, how are those statements different? What I was saying was that the Qliphoth is a specific place, not a "type" of place.  What purpose would multiples serve? An army of Schnoz' (Schnii?)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rhombaad on March 28, 2006, 12:00:58 AM
Wow what a read, I need to search through the forums for most of the stuff Aazealh and QUeen typhonblue are talking about.  Both of you are too well researched. :serpico:

An army of Schnoz' (Schnii?)

It will be glorious! :griff:

Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 28, 2006, 12:41:51 AM
Well, I don't really consider her to be a more eminent source than older texts. It still stands that the Sephiroth and the Qliphoth are distinct entities. Like twins, one good and one evil. But whatever.

What sources is this from? I'm asking because the sources I've read have them both as two aspects (or sides) of the same thing.

And, if you really get technical, the conceptual opposition is between the tree of life and the tree of knowledge rather then the Sephiroth and the Qliphoth. (Sort of like indifference being the opposite of both hate and love which are two sides of the same coin.) So you have Geburah as catabolism and Chesed as anabolism, for example. And Geburah's Qliphoth is the excess of catabolism, Chesed's Qliphoth is the excess of anabolism.

Further, I read that the Qliphoth are the husks of the Sephiroth. Like dead cells or the skeleton of a living thing.

Quote
I don't think so, no. Actually, that seems extremely unlikely. It just doesn't correspond to the way it's described in the manga.

Well, like I said, I'll have to wait for the official translation before I comment. Although it looks like the Dark Horse translations aren't exactly devoid of error. :\

How is Qliphoth translated into Japanese, btw? And I looked over the translations available on this site and you're right, according to them it sounds like Miura is refering to the Qliphoth as one single place... Although, maybe what he's implying is that the Qliphoth visted by Guts and posse is the manifestation of Lilith on earth(Malkuth) and the other Qliphoth are too abstract to have any physical counter-part.

Or maybe as the astral realm manifests into the physical plane each Sephiroth/Qliphoth will "spill out" into the material world. (Sounds gross.) And that's the only one that's currently available to be visited.

Anyway, it's been nice chatting with you. You are very learned in areas where I am not.

To Walter,

Each Qliphoth represents a particular type of evil and associated with one of the seven hells. So you have Lilith and Gamaliel(Gehanna)... rape, corruption and prostitution. Samael(Shadow of Death)... Falsity, etc. So each Qliphoth could be responsible for spilling out a new evil(and new race of demons) into the world.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Wereallmad on March 28, 2006, 01:34:39 AM
What constitutes an "offical translation"?

Miura is not translating Berserk. Darkhorse is, and their translation is still completetly interpretive. Infact, literal translation of Japanese to english is impossible because the etymology of Japanese words is so unique. In and all attempts at translation would be subject to the same confusion that amateur translators suffer from. Of course, some interpretations are much more 'accurate' than others, but it's always subjective. I wouldn't put much faith in DarkHorse's translation.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Jhot obs on March 28, 2006, 05:04:46 AM
(http://skullknight.net/yabbse/Smileys/Berserk/daiba.gif)
Bring it.
Kick ass emoticon Wally.  :badbone:

After viewing this episode again, I'm thinking Daiba may try something against Guts' companions next episode after seeing Guts save them at the end. Or at least he knows a weakness Guts has that'll be useful if he still can't land a blow on him. With Guts in complete control of himself now, I hope Schierke keeps communicating with him so they can try and find a weakness in Daiba. I think back to when Schierke squinted to get a better view of Daiba through Guts' berserk vision and I'm thinking if there's going to be an astral battle between Daiba and her, she better find a tangible way to get to him. As of now, I'm not sure if Daiba's even using an astral body.

It'll be most interesting to see Schierke's next move next month.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on March 28, 2006, 09:41:18 AM
I'm still waiting for Miura to email me back about what color the armor actually is. I won't be ignored, damn it! BTW, nobody respond to this, there's no point in debating it; I'm just collecting my thoughts here because the board is my personal skullivejournal. Feedback is useless anyway because logic can lead to the wrong conclusion, however reasonable, that's why I only accept truth. As Sherwood Homes once wrote, "The illogical is sometimes the logical, so live long and prosper, Winston."
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 28, 2006, 12:34:56 PM
What sources is this from? I'm asking because the sources I've read have them both as two aspects (or sides) of the same thing.

Well, you know what Kabbalah is about, right? The study of Jewish texts, specifically the Torah. The Hermetic Kabbalah you affectionate is recent (started around 500 years ago) and a mix of a lot of things, including the Corpus Hermeticum (related to Hermes Trimegistus, from Egypt), neo-platonism, renaissance humanism, christianity, etc. That's why its interpretations can vastly differ from other views of the Kabbalah and aren't to be considered truer or more relevant than the others. Some even doubt it's legitimacy, but that's not really important here. If you want to learn more about it, I can only recommend you to read books on the subject, I can't summarize 1500 years of mysticism on a forum just like that. Besides like I said I'm not a Kabbalah scholar, far from it.

And, if you really get technical, the conceptual opposition is between the tree of life and the tree of knowledge rather then the Sephiroth and the Qliphoth. (Sort of like indifference being the opposite of both hate and love which are two sides of the same coin.)

Not necessarily, no. The Zohar says evil is born from the primordial separation between these 2 trees. But apart from that, the Sephiroth and the Qliphoth are often described as opposing themselves (the two notions aren't conflicting), it's just a matter of interpretation, once again. The Qliphoth are even called the "Tree of Death", itself an expression of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (that fits occult and satanist views the most, but also Hermetic concepts). The problem here like I said is that Kabbalah isn't a strict collection of documents with definite notions, there are almost always several ways to view the same thing. Kabbalah can even explain evil without the existence of the Qliphoth, as part of the Tree of Life (the "female side" would be evil).

Further, I read that the Qliphoth are the husks of the Sephiroth. Like dead cells or the skeleton of a living thing.

Actually, the word Qliphah itself means "husk" or "shell". It's a reference to the fact that the Sephiroh are themselves shells, recipients, that encapsulate the light of God. There's no simple or exact definition for the Qliphoth in Kabbalah because it's based on a monotheistic religion (Judaism) where there is a God but no "Devil". Explaining why evil exists therefore becomes tough. The Qliphoth can be viewed as shells containing no light and thus representing darkness, or in the case where the Sephiroth are concentric circles encapsulating each other the Qliphoth can be the last, outer one. Then there's the concept (that you mentioned) of the Qliphoth being the result of the Sephiroth having an imbalanced, unstable period at the time of creation, some others just see them as opposites and totally averse, etc. Finally there's the combination of Kabbalah with medieval legends that yielded what you talked about earlier: demons ruled by Samael and Lilith, with 10 Qliphoth being 10 distinct evil emanations equalling the 10 Sephiroth.

There's other stuff I didn't cite but my point is really that you could interpret it in 10 different ways and that it'd still be correct, at least to some people. What should be considered carefully though is the mix between interpretations, I don't think that kind of bastardization holds much relevance.

Although it looks like the Dark Horse translations aren't exactly devoid of error. :\

Yeah, they aren't. However there are some people here that are quite reliable for stuff like this, maybe you put more faith in them. :carcus:

How is Qliphoth translated into Japanese, btw?

クリフォト.

Although, maybe what he's implying is that the Qliphoth visted by Guts and posse is the manifestation of Lilith on earth(Malkuth) and the other Qliphoth are too abstract to have any physical counter-part. Or maybe as the astral realm manifests into the physical plane each Sephiroth/Qliphoth will "spill out" into the material world. (Sounds gross.) And that's the only one that's currently available to be visited.

No, I don't think so. Like I said, it just doesn't sound like it from the way it's presented to the reader.

Well, it's been quite a discussion, but I'd really like to get back to more concrete Berserk stuff now if you don't mind, because we're really just debating esoteric concepts here. I think I've reached the limit of my knowledge of Kabbalah anyway, I'd have to re-read books on the topic to give you more details.

After viewing this episode again, I'm thinking Daiba may try something against Guts' companions next episode after seeing Guts save them at the end. Or at least he knows a weakness Guts has that'll be useful if he still can't land a blow on him.

First, thanks for trying to re-center the discussion on the episode. Second, while this would indeed be a smart move, I have the feeling that Daiba won't be able to keep his eyes off Guts for long if he wants to stay alive. Concentrating on the others may give Guts enough time to cut him in half, and we've yet to see whether he can attack without using the sea or not (otherwise they could get away from the pier). I could definitely see him throw some Pishacha or Daka at them though, to put some pressure on Guts. Other than that, Serpico might come to his senses and try something on his own this time. After all he can easily jump around like Guts did in this episode, and he doesn't need to come close to Daiba to attack him. It might be interesting in a "re-enactment of his battle with the Kelpie" sort of way: water vs wind. Of course, a combined attack (Guts and Serpico) would be awesome too.

With Guts in complete control of himself now, I hope Schierke keeps communicating with him so they can try and find a weakness in Daiba.

Yeah, I can't see that happening. If she doesn't have to ensure Guts doesn't die anymore she might be able to concentrate on the enemy. I wonder whether she'll be able to stay in the armor or not now that Guts is himself again though.

I think back to when Schierke squinted to get a better view of Daiba through Guts' berserk vision and I'm thinking if there's going to be an astral battle between Daiba and her, she better find a tangible way to get to him. As of now, I'm not sure if Daiba's even using an astral body.

He doesn't look like he's leaving his body, reacting to what happens and all, or he's coming back to it very quickly each time. An astral battle would be neat, but I wonder if she'd be able to defeat him with the darkness that covered him and all. It'll be interesting in any case.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QuestionMark on March 28, 2006, 02:58:18 PM
I just wanted to say that that conversation was fascinating and, IMO at least, really worth its time in this thread.  I'm sure some might think otherwise, which is cool, but I often wish discussions that went beyond the mechanics of the episode, and into "deeper", more philosophical/religous/cultural interpretations of Berserk happened more often.  When they do happen, I love it, and it's exactly why I keep coming back to this board.  It _is_ great to have such well-learned people around.

As for whether Berserk was directly influenced by things like Kabalah (did I even spell that right?), Jung, Vedic texts, etc.-- I just want to say that, from a literary stand point (and this is just one perspective of course), to me it often doesn't really matter what the author's intention was, OR rather, the author's intention is often not the only perspective with value on a text.  Thus, Miura may mean one thing (which we may try to figure out, or whatever), but he might also be creating something that creates a life beyond his own intentions.  What I'm really trying to say is that I think other interpretations of what is going on in Berserk (influences, interpretations, etc.) can be just as valid whether or not Miura meant them to be interpreted that way.  Now, that doesn't mean all interpretations are made equally, but I'm glad people like Aaz and Typhon are out there putting their twist on the Miura universe-- it just makes reading Berserk that much more interesting.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Some Guy on March 29, 2006, 05:17:15 AM
I just wanted to say that that conversation was fascinating and, IMO at least, really worth its time in this thread.  I'm sure some might think otherwise, which is cool, but I often wish discussions that went beyond the mechanics of the episode, and into "deeper", more philosophical/religous/cultural interpretations of Berserk happened more often.  When they do happen, I love it, and it's exactly why I keep coming back to this board.  It _is_ great to have such well-learned people around.

I'll toast to that

I could definitely see him throw some Pishacha or Daka at them though, to put some pressure on Guts.

And crocs.  Don't forget the crocs :troll:

I'm wondering what kind of techniques Guts will use against Daiba now that he's got his head back on his shoulders.  It's seems clear that a full frontal attack on on Daiba isn't an option (unless he manages to dodge all of his magic attacks), so perhaps Guts will use more clever tactics, especially considering Daiba's floating rather high on a ship in Makara infested waters.

Maybe as Aazealh said we'll see Serpico take part in the action as he's the only one in the party that would be useful and would seem beneficial given his agility and flying ability.  I'm interested in what will happen to Schierke.  Will she be able to stay in the armor and possibly give his some useful insight, or will she return back to her body now that Guts is no longer "berserk"?  And if Schierke were to return to her body would she whoop Daiba's ass with some magic of her own (I'd think it would have to involve Elemental summoning, though).

Hell, maybe everyone will have to rely on Puck's Spark to save the day :puck:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Jhot obs on March 29, 2006, 05:23:20 AM
I could definitely see him throw some Pishacha or Daka at them though, to put some pressure on Guts.
I'm actually hoping that's what's going to happen next. Daiba's ship must have something more then just rowmen, cannons and his hookah: Maybe some sort of familiar we've yet to see. Though the feeling I get from Daiba is an old man slightly impressed and amused with Guts. Of course, the foreplay's over now, so he may do something like employ Kushan mist or whatnot to try and debilitate Guts' maneuverability.

Other than that, Serpico might come to his senses and try something on his own this time. After all he can easily jump around like Guts did in this episode, and he doesn't need to come close to Daiba to attack him. It might be interesting in a "re-enactment of his battle with the Kelpie" sort of way: water vs wind. Of course, a combined attack (Guts and Serpico) would be awesome too.
I too speculate Serpico's going to play his hand into this fight. He's been analyzing Guts' action and wondering if he'll turn on him. Now that Guts has shown he can take care of them, I think it's about right if Serpico evened up the odds for their party. Daiba seems to think Guts is the only threat to him, so he doesn't know about Schierke's action towards Guts or Farnese's, Isidro's and Serpico's magical fetishes.

When you mentioned "wind vs. water" I didn't see it that way, but the more I think about it, the more I hope Serpico plays a prominent role in Daiba's downfall: he hasn't gotten a clear victory for him other then fighting hordes of beasts (trolls, dakas, tigers, crocodiles). Helping take down a big shot like Daiba will be indeed be awesome. That and I'm just tired of looking at his semi-pouty face lately and I hope something's done with him to stop that.

Yeah, I can't see that happening. If she doesn't have to ensure Guts doesn't die anymore she might be able to concentrate on the enemy. I wonder whether she'll be able to stay in the armor or not now that Guts is himself again though.
After he wiped up that tornado so quickly, she recognized him as an Eastern magician. She knows more about this type of magic, I'm sure, and I hope she sticks around in Guts' head to give him feedback directly to him so theycan form an attack plan together. That is of course, if she's still inside the armor.

He doesn't look like he's leaving his body, reacting to what happens and all, or he's coming back to it very quickly each time. An astral battle would be neat, but I wonder if she'd be able to defeat him with the darkness that covered him and all. It'll be interesting in any case.
Along with your prophesied magician battle between Daiba and Schierke, I would want the terminology Daiba refers to Guts in the berserk armor clarified. I know it's been explained in the "Translations" & "Current Episodes" boards, but in-story, it would maybe shed light to the group/Schierke some aspect of the armor.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rhombaad on March 29, 2006, 05:43:54 AM
I'm wondering if Ganishka will show himself (via his fog) during the battle against Daiba or afterwards (if Daiba is killed).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 29, 2006, 12:11:33 PM
And crocs.  Don't forget the crocs

Well, the crocodiles are Pishacha... Just like the elephants and the tigers.

I'm wondering what kind of techniques Guts will use against Daiba now that he's got his head back on his shoulders.  It's seems clear that a full frontal attack on on Daiba isn't an option (unless he manages to dodge all of his magic attacks)

Seems plausible to me, he managed to dodge his attacks in this episode, so why not once more? I even thought about him throwing the DS like he did in volume 27, but the risk of it falling into the sea would too high IMO.

I'm interested in what will happen to Schierke.  Will she be able to stay in the armor and possibly give his some useful insight, or will she return back to her body now that Guts is no longer "berserk"?  And if Schierke were to return to her body would she whoop Daiba's ass with some magic of her own (I'd think it would have to involve Elemental summoning, though).

If she returns to her body I don't think she'll be able to cast any spell, she was physically very tired in episode 269 and said she couldn't do it. Or maybe she could borrow some energy from Guts in the process or something like that. In any case it would be difficult since Daiba saw her doing before, he could attack her while she would be incantating. I thought about some more direct attack/disturbance in the astral realm like I said in my previous post, maybe to give the others enough time to take care of him. Not sure if that's feasible though.

Hell, maybe everyone will have to rely on Puck's Spark to save the day

Hey, that'd be awesome. :puck:

Daiba's ship must have something more then just rowmen, cannons and his hookah: Maybe some sort of familiar we've yet to see. Though the feeling I get from Daiba is an old man slightly impressed and amused with Guts. Of course, the foreplay's over now, so he may do something like employ Kushan mist or whatnot to try and debilitate Guts' maneuverability.

I'm not sure he's got more than just men on his ship actually, being the commander he wouldn't carry troops because having them disembark would be a bother, besides the Makara Guts killed in 269 seemed to somehow be his personal guard (the way he arrived right after Guts defeated them). It could be interesting if he used the mist, but I'm not sure that would help him all that much in this situation. He's not shown to be very mobile until now, so if he doesn't move, being hidden won't change anything as long as the group knows his position.

Daiba seems to think Guts is the only threat to him, so he doesn't know about Schierke's action towards Guts or Farnese's, Isidro's and Serpico's magical fetishes.

Yeah, I think this mix of ignorance/arrogance/confidence will be his downfall. I hope for him he's got an ace up his sleeve.

Helping take down a big shot like Daiba will be indeed be awesome. That and I'm just tired of looking at his semi-pouty face lately and I hope something's done with him to stop that.

There's also the fact that I'd like the group to start working together more, even if they're just assisting Guts. In a completely far-fetched speculation, I could even imagine Farnese sending her familiars to distract him (creeping behind him and attacking suddenly), assuming she'd be able to control them at long range (which she probably can't). :guts:

I hope she sticks around in Guts' head to give him feedback directly to him so theycan form an attack plan together. That is of course, if she's still inside the armor.

Along with your prophesied magician battle between Daiba and Schierke, I would want the terminology Daiba refers to Guts in the berserk armor clarified. I know it's been explained in the "Translations" & "Current Episodes" boards, but in-story, it would maybe shed light to the group/Schierke some aspect of the armor.

Well, the thing is that we can't have both, either she'll stay within Guts and give him instructions or she'll come out of the armor and maybe try something on her own (in conjunction with the others?). As for an explanation on the vocabulary Daiba uses, I don't think there will be any, and I doubt the group would learn anything new from it anyway.

I'm wondering if Ganishka will show himself (via his fog) during the battle against Daiba or afterwards (if Daiba is killed).

Hehe, why not. To tell the group he'll remember them or something like that. :void:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on March 29, 2006, 12:16:49 PM
I'm wondering if Ganishka will show himself (via his fog) during the battle against Daiba or afterwards (if Daiba is killed).

Daiba?  Daiba?  DAAAAIBAAAAAAAAA!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: darkbane on March 29, 2006, 05:21:12 PM
About the vocabulary... From what I understand, he might as well be talking gibberish at them, since it seems that "Kushanese" is not universally comprehendable.  :guts: So far, nobody gave any indication of understanding Daiba's words, and Serpico stated that "he's saying something but...". In the end, even if something about the armor is revealed, I suppose the readers are the only ones who would benefit -_-
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 29, 2006, 05:25:22 PM
On the debate about the Kabalah it was very interesting but Berserk work with his own mythology and even if it refers to other mythology it's purely "allegorical"...
About Daiba I'm sure he has something else for him I mean he's an old "so" experienced wizard and Guts's little show did not impressed it that much...for me that could mean two things(at least) either he's stupid and arrogant or he is quite strong!
I would vote for the second(plus some arrogance)the fact is that we know almost nothing about him and that a lot of people seem to think that Guts will  "kick his ass"...because he manages to escape some tornados...
Since the appearance of Schierke in Berserk I always wonder how Guts would fight against a sorcerer because except during the casting time they are almost unreachable and more still for a swordman so a wizard who can cast a spell instantly is actually the worst opponent for Guts...
In other word Daiba is kinda like the "natural ennemy" of Guts  and without the help of his companions("admirers")he's doomed...IMO  :serpico:
So it's time for the gang to become useful in this fight like Aaz said(and especially Serpico)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 29, 2006, 05:54:59 PM
In the end, even if something about the armor is revealed, I suppose the readers are the only ones who would benefit

Yeah, they can't understand it (Serpico clearly says so). But Daiba's not saying anything special about it anyway, just that it's "a berserk's armor" with other terms.

About Daiba I'm sure he has something else for him I mean he's an old "so" experienced wizard and Guts's little show did not impressed it that much...

He sure didn't keep a straight face, and he seemed quite surprised to see that Guts had killed all these troops by himself actually (and he didn't manage to finish him off after that). As for being old, that doesn't necessarily mean he's incredibly skilled... He's got some success with his first attack against a mindless Guts but that's over now, and since he's revealed his fighting style it might be harder to surprise the group. We'll soon see the depth of his ability anyway.

the fact is that we know almost nothing about him and that a lot of people seem to think that Guts will  "kick his ass"...because he manages to escape some tornados...

Looks like you're vastly underestimating Guts here. He didn't just "escape some tornadoes", he dodged all of Daiba's attacks and managed to save his friends from a falling mast. That doesn't count for nothing, and while we don't know much about Daiba like you said, we do know that he's just a subordinate of Ganishka, probably drawing his power from him.

Since the appearance of Schierke in Berserk I always wonder how Guts would fight against a sorcerer because except during the casting time they are almost unreachable

Schierke has always been far from unreachable when she was casting... Needing protection and all. Just look at what happened in 268, without Guts' intervention she would have been killed by her own magic.

PS: Remember to buy volume 30 guys, it came out today. (http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4592137280/qid=1143656421/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/249-0801120-4055502)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mage on March 29, 2006, 06:40:02 PM
Guts is land-locked...like he can risk falling into the water with the armor on, which was precisely why he frantically jumped back to land (the mast only fell as Daiba destroyed the boat from which he had just jumped to land).  Daiba himself seemed frustrated, but not desperate.  I'm sure he has something else up his sleeve.  Even if not, I don't think he's stupid enough to stick around if things look bad for him.

That said, Guts was incredible this episode and who knows what he'll do.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Some Guy on March 29, 2006, 07:27:04 PM
PS: Remember to buy volume 29 guys, it came out today. (http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4592137280/qid=1143656421/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/249-0801120-4055502)

You mean Vol. 30, right? :carcus:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 29, 2006, 08:03:38 PM
My point is not to say that Guts is weak nor that what he did in the last episode was nothing read my first post after looking at the episode i was "amazed" BUT not enough to say that he will kick Daiba's ass!
About the wizard I may have exagerated "a little bit" but the fact are that Daiba can cast spell almost instantly and we aren't sure that  he is "not mobile" so my point is that right now we don't know enough about Daiba to say that Guts "own him"...
IMO "the gang" is way too "spectator", Guts wont' beat everything alone and especially in his current state so Daiba can be the perfect way to start acting as a real team and I hope that something will force them to do so   (http://skullknight.net/yabbse/Smileys/Berserk/daiba.gif)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rhombaad on March 29, 2006, 09:14:34 PM
PS: Remember to buy volume 30 guys, it came out today. (http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4592137280/qid=1143656421/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/249-0801120-4055502)

I'm planning on going down to the Kunikiya Bookstore in Seattle this weekend and snagging myself volume 30, in addition to some of the more recent Japanese volumes that I don't have. :serpico:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 29, 2006, 09:59:10 PM
Guts is land-locked...like he can risk falling into the water with the armor on, which was precisely why he frantically jumped back to land

He used the bodies of the Makara once, nothing says he can't do it again... And there are still sinking ships around (like the one which mast he deflected). As long as he can reach Daiba's own ship (which didn't seem to be too far away from the docks) he can cause him trouble, if only by sinking it. My point is that while he fled Daiba's attacks in this episode (he woke up as he was falling from the sky...), I doubt he (and the others) will just be doing the same in episode 272. And although Guts can't maneuver well in such a context, Daiba himself has only been using the sea up to now, if the group retreats a bit he'll have difficulties attacking them like he did. He's indeed not desperate, actually he seemed rather carefree, and like I said I think that'll be his downfall. Schierke, Guts, Serpico... Any of them could find an exploitable weakness and put it to good use.

I don't want to insist too much on the matter, I just don't think the group is helpless against Daiba, Guts included.

You mean Vol. 30, right?

Whoops, yeah, I edited that too fast (we're the 29...). Well, you get the point anyway.

not enough to say that he will kick Daiba's ass!

Well you're the one that's insisting on this right now... We aren't sure of many things, but that doesn't constitute much of an argument in itself. You're just stating the obvious here... And repeating what I said about fighting as a team. So, what do you think exactly? That Daiba will defeat the group and force them to flee? That Guts is doomed if he doesn't get help? We could always take bets about the issue of the fight if you want, in memory of xechnao. :void:

Daiba appears to be a formidable opponent, but I wouldn't give him too much credit based on what he's done so far. He's not Ganishka himself. Good for him if he's resourceful, but if he's not... Death awaits. And on a side note, I'd say the worst opponent for Guts would be Irvine, who's able to shoot arrows from a mile away.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 30, 2006, 12:44:40 AM
I'm insisting on that point cause it's the "mood" here maybe it's just me finally ...
I wont start a "i say it before you even said it"debate but I dislike the "admirer"  attitude of the gang for quite a long time and I imagined the fight against a wizard as a good occasion to change that so...
Anyway about Guts really "doomed" maybe not(particularly thanks to his mechanical arm/cannon) but it'd be boring (for me) seeing the team just looking at him(because of the previous statement)...
BTW I recommend not to take my words litterally and in fact I hoped that I wouldn't need to say that...I maybe wrong finally  :serpico:
I take the comparison with Xechnao as an offense  :puck: I(hope)I'm not that blind!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 30, 2006, 01:07:18 AM
I'm insisting on that point cause it's the "mood" here maybe it's just me finally ...

I don't think there's a specific mood like that, hence my comment on it. If you want my opinion, just don't focus yourself on that kind of things, it's useless. Instead you could concentrate on explaining why you think Daiba could pose the group a bigger threat than some expect for example (or speculate about his skills), that'd be interesting to read.

I wont start a "i say it before you even said it"debate

You can if you want, you'd better have posted it 2 years ago though. :carcus:

Anyway about Guts really "doomed" maybe not(particularly thanks to his mechanical arm/cannon) but it'd be boring (for me) seeing the team just looking at him(because of the previous statement)...

Cannon or not, he's been in tighter situations... And there was a point to his confrontation with Daiba. Besides, don't forget that no matter how much experience and magical equipment they have, no one in the group is as prepared to that sort of situation as he is. It's normal for them not to be on his level yet, it would completely downgrade his merit if they were. That being said, they've worked together well in the past, even in recent episodes, and I also expect them to this time.

BTW I recommend not to take my words litterally and in fact I hoped that I wouldn't need to say that...I maybe wrong finally

So should I interpret all of what you say figuratively? Sorry but that's asking a bit much man, I just go by what you write. It's up to you to properly convey what you want to say.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 30, 2006, 02:14:18 AM
The problem with Daiba and Kushan generally is that we deon't know much about them and more still about the wizards so I can only speculate...doing so I will speak about the experience wich is something very important for me and I already said it but  he is an old general of Ganishka so he must be experienced...
About his powers I dunno how magic work but my logic is the less time is take the weakest a spell is...so if he can cast the tornado so quick it must be one of his weakest spell so the strongest one must be terrifying,moreover Daiba was still "playing" with Guts and was surely underestimating him but the moment he'll think that Guts is a real treat for his life he will take him seriously...and use all his grampy tricks to survive :carcus:
About the gang...at the end of the episode Guts did the impossible to save them and that was really cool and this is the problem because Guts cannot care about them in this kind of fight so Daiba who don't seem to be someone caring for "honor" can even use them against Guts...so if they want to survive they'll have to do something "there is no spectator on a warfield"sound Guts-ish to me :guts:
Finally if our sorcerer is really in a bad position he can certainly call Daka(s?) to support him,and stressing Guts and the gang...maybe to escape
Those are the points that let me think that Daiba will survive this fight I don't say win but just survive
On the other hand Schierke being sucked by the armor seem a good point for me she'd be useless in her own body but in Guts's mind she can(and already)help Guts to regain consciousness and even give him some advices
Serpico could be a good help for Guts,he can fly and all but even if he is a clever guy he's proved he could be careless against the Makara on the beach!
The overall is not bad but IMO they won't kill Daiba because it must be Griffith that achieve him  after a lil' chat with Daiba saying that a BlackSwordsman hurt him blablabla it's really farfetched but who know...
That's all for tonight
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: QUeeN typhonblue on March 30, 2006, 02:29:48 AM
Maybe a bigger fish will make an appearance and draw daiba's attention away from Guts and posse.  :griff:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Vampire_Hunter_Bob on March 30, 2006, 05:42:03 AM
PS: Remember to buy volume 30 guys, it came out today. (http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4592137280/qid=1143656421/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/249-0801120-4055502)

Done and done.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 30, 2006, 07:25:59 AM
I will speak about the experience wich is something very important for me and I already said it but  he is an old general of Ganishka so he must be experienced...
About his powers I dunno how magic work but my logic is the less time is take the weakest a spell is...so if he can cast the tornado so quick it must be one of his weakest spell so the strongest one must be terrifying

Yeah, but don't you think his lack of proper magic knowledge (i.e. seemingly knowing less than Schierke) is a disadvantage? If he's always just limited himself to serving Ganishka and deriving his power from the emperor, his experience in itself won't be as significant on the issue of the battle. Also, the fact his spells don't take long to cast doesn't necessarily mean they're weak, it's just a different kind of magic (what Schierke said). Still taking the example of a possible Ganishka-powered magic, if he just draws energy from Ganishka to cast spells it would be normal for it to be faster than going to the astral world and summoning an elemental spirit. Pretty much anything would, actually. And even if he were to use a more powerful spell, I don't think it'd take him much longer to cast it.

Daiba was still "playing" with Guts and was surely underestimating him but the moment he'll think that Guts is a real treat for his life he will take him seriously...and use all his grampy tricks to survive

I didn't have the feeling he was just playing around after Guts landed on that ship. He didn't expect it and really tried to kill him, that's why Guts had a hard time getting back to the group. As for "grampy surviving tricks"... Sounds like MGS4. We'll see how it turns out I guess. :serpico:

Finally if our sorcerer is really in a bad position he can certainly call Daka(s?) to support him

Certainly? How is it certain? It's a definite possibility, but Schierke's killed quite a lot of them recently, he might not have much troops left in this part of the harbor.

Maybe a bigger fish will make an appearance and draw daiba's attention away from Guts and posse.

Maybe Irvine will just snipe him from some nearby hill. :void:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on March 30, 2006, 11:24:34 AM
I agree with you on the lack of proper experience thing but I don't think that Daiba's power come exclusively from Ganishka,maybe he was a wizard before knowing Ganishka and he received a "power up" from the emperor like an ability to control familliars and using the fog...on the other hand I still think whatever kind of magic it is the longer the spell take the stronger it is now that  may be a "simple" reasoning but things often work that way...
And about the troops remaining we can see in episode 268 that there is still a lot of Daka even after Schierke cast the Wheel of Fire(page 18)so you're wrong on that point...
Anyway I hope the next episode will light us(me) on Daiba's real ability...
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 30, 2006, 01:18:33 PM
on the other hand I still think whatever kind of magic it is the longer the spell take the stronger it is now that  may be a "simple" reasoning but things often work that way...

Yeah, I think that's a simplistic reasoning. Ganishka instantly shot lightning in volume 27, does that mean it was weak?

And about the troops remaining we can see in episode 268 that there is still a lot of Daka even after Schierke cast the Wheel of Fire(page 18)so you're wrong on that point...

I said "in this part of the harbor". If it takes them 10 minutes to get to the group they won't be of much use. Besides, we saw them fleeing when the Wheel of Fire appeared, so the remaining ones might not have stuck around. They were nowhere to be seen in the last 3 episodes, so I'm not calling that "certain".
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Dark Wanderer on March 30, 2006, 01:46:15 PM
Very interesting episode, certainly! Now we have about more of an idea of the power of the opponent Guts & Company faces - not just a funny, floating old man, if anyone believed he was just that :p.

Interesting, the way Schierke "cleared" his eyes - perhaps they've now found a way for Guts to use the power of the armor without putting his comrades in danger? Of course, we don't know for how long she may be able to do that - nor what toll it'll take on both her & Guts in the end.

Wonder why not the others have tried to do anything yet - I'd have expected Serpico to try and use some wind on him by now anyway (even if Daiba might just block it with a tornado, similar to how the Kelpie in Enoch blocked Serpico's wind) - but perhaps they're just to awed by the fight as it is now - and since Guts may to them not appear to be in any serious danger yet, they've decided it better to not interfere...

Nice catching of the mast, too! Through as Guts says, it's sure to have painful consequences later.. T_T.

Now, let's see what tricks Schierke and Guts may use against Daiba in the next episode... :3
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on March 30, 2006, 01:56:10 PM
I'd have expected Serpico to try and use some wind on him by now anyway (even if Daiba might just block it with a tornado, similar to how the Kelpie in Enoch blocked Serpico's wind)

Well, Guts didn't control himself at first, so interfering could have been dangerous, and after that he was probably busy being amazed at his acrobatics. There's also the range factor, he might need to get closer to seriously attack him.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Dark Wanderer on March 30, 2006, 01:59:43 PM
Well, Guts didn't control himself at first, so interfering could have been dangerous, and after that he was probably busy being amazed at his acrobatics. There's also the range factor, he might need to get closer to seriously attack him.

There's those reasons of course. So let's see if it changes the next few episodes. He should've gotten voer hos bafflement and since Guts seem to be in control for the time being, shouldn't be as dangerous now...

Oh, and I forgot: Thanks for the episode, as always! :)
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on March 30, 2006, 10:37:53 PM
since Guts seem to be in control for the time being, shouldn't be as dangerous now...

If you're saying Guts shouldn't be as dangerous, I don't know that that's true in this case. The Beast helps Guts out-monster things like Apostles and the Makara on a physical level, but if not for Schierke bringing him back to his senses, Daiba would have already turned him into paste. In this situation, I think it could be most advantageous for Guts to have his wits about him and Schierke in his ear.

I like that Miura is establishing that the Beast isn't a viable cop-out to any challenge Guts faces.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on April 01, 2006, 07:09:11 AM
I wonder if this fight will put a strain on Guts so much that more of his body will change. :SK:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: IgnusDei on April 01, 2006, 11:42:08 PM
here's a thought: what happens if Schierke can't get out? like, never ever?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: CnC on April 02, 2006, 12:31:41 AM
it was briefly discussed last episode.  I had thought perhaps that was a possibility until it was pointed out she still has that little tether sticking out of her head which connects her to her body.

That, and the fact that this episode she was able to free herself of the armor's od makes me think her being stuck is highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 02, 2006, 01:12:59 AM
what happens if Schierke can't get out? like, never ever?

Practically all her character development would be in vain? Even if we put aside the hints going against that hypothesis, I don't think this has any chance of occurring.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Tell Me Why on April 04, 2006, 03:20:09 PM
Can someone post the pictures from the episode in this topic like they used to? I'm on a school computer and I'll be here just about all day.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 04, 2006, 03:45:46 PM
Can someone post the pictures from the episode in this topic like they used to?

Here you go: links removed

But you guys should really find a way to download zip files, it's not that hard.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: sandman on April 04, 2006, 10:08:51 PM
Nice sound clip Aazealh :serpico:

Cant wait to see what how this fight progresses, first I think that Guts saving the crew was a sign to the Shaman of weakness, so he will start trying to kill them and while Guts is saving them Daiba will go for the cheap shot. This is where Serpico will fly in and kill that hooka smoking Kushan, like I have always said he is the Shaman Assasin :chomp:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Forest Wraith on April 05, 2006, 03:15:11 AM
Thanks for the scans Aazealh: I'm also thinking that Serpico is going to earn his keep again. It would be great to see him dodge around Daiba's attacks, perhaps he will even learn how to further deepen his bond the wind-element familiars to move himself faster. Or maybe even a long-ranged attack using them to propel and or control the flight of an object? Such as a chunk of masonry or a bomb thrown by Isidro . . . Or maybe even Isidro himself for that matter?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mista_B on April 07, 2006, 05:27:24 AM
Honestly, I think you guys are overestimating Serpico's abilities, though I agree he's been underutilized recently. With what we've seen of that Shaman's abilities, he wouldn't last more than an uttered syllable. True, we've onle seen the Shaman display wind powers so far, but that seemed the least of his abilities. And I doubt that Serpico, even with the aid of the elves, could survive a demon tornado the way the armored Guts did (with injuries).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: hanafubuku on April 07, 2006, 05:42:45 AM
here's a thought: what happens if Schierke can't get out? like, never ever?

Guts will become more feminine :isidro:

Oh!  He will pick up on Schierke's magic and become a Holy Swordsman - like T.G. Cid!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 07, 2006, 08:11:58 AM
With what we've seen of that Shaman's abilities, he wouldn't last more than an uttered syllable.

He's not a shaman (you can choose between sorcerer, wizard and magician). Also, aren't you underestimating Serpico's abilities yourself? To be effective, Daiba's attacks would have to hit him, and he's pretty good at dodging. If Daiba's already busy with Guts, I think he could get a fair chance. That's hardly an unreasonable speculation.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: IgnusDei on April 07, 2006, 02:07:29 PM


Oh!  He will pick up on Schierke's magic and become a Holy Swordsman - like T.G. Cid!

BERSERK TACTICS!

the fanboy in me screams "that would be such a cool game omg!"

Well, Serpico aside, there's two other characters that have yet to do anything against Daiba: Isidro is one, although i suppose he's done enough, and though Roderick isn't equipped to deal with the supernatural, it'd be nice to see him pull a trick. It's time they both stopped being spectators, their characters deserve better, i think.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Proj2501 on April 07, 2006, 02:23:31 PM
I'm wondering about something. Is Daiba the ONLY person...or thing on that ship. Has anyone else thougth that or is it just me? I mean, I doubt some new character (henchman to Daiba) wll pop out from the bottom saying, "What's going on up here?"...I dont think something like that will happen, but you never know. Perhaps Daiba has some sort of escort with him on the ship...as I type this I'm thinking, 'it IS just him', so, we'll see.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 07, 2006, 06:15:46 PM
I'm wondering about something. Is Daiba the ONLY person...or thing on that ship.

His ship has oars, there must be at least enough people to row on board (slaves?). Also, we saw a subordinate reporting to him in episode 243, so that ship isn't uninhabited. Anyway there has to be a crew to maneuver it, but the real question is whether they will/can fight or not.

Perhaps Daiba has some sort of escort with him on the ship...as I type this I'm thinking, 'it IS just him', so, we'll see.

Well the group of Makara that Guts defeated in episodes 269/270 could have been Daiba's personal guard, like I said earlier.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mage on April 08, 2006, 10:10:49 AM
It's time they both stopped being spectators

Yes! Roderick has been dead weight on the group for far too long!  It's time he started fighting Kushan sorcerers by himself, for once!
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Rickert on April 08, 2006, 11:01:23 AM
His ship has oars, there must be at least enough people to row on board (slaves?). Also, we saw a subordinate reporting to him in episode 243, so that ship isn't uninhabited. Anyway there has to be a crew to maneuver it, but the real question is whether they will/can fight or not.

Well the group of Makara that Guts defeated in episodes 269/270 could have been Daiba's personal guard, like I said earlier.

Well, why doesn't that Daiba dude use his magic for the transportation of the ship he is on, instead of having a crew to maneuver it (If he can make tornado's etc he should be able to move the ship doesn't he? In any case this isn't certain. Same goes for the subordinate you were talking about. Maybe he already left the ship sooner or switched ships or something...

Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on April 08, 2006, 04:50:17 PM
Well, why doesn't that Daiba dude use his magic for the transportation of the ship he is on, instead of having a crew to maneuver it (If he can make tornado's etc he should be able to move the ship doesn't he?
Why should he bother to use magic and potentially exhaust himself before a major battle when he can just have other people row for him?  He'd also get pretty lonely out at sea all alone except for the Makara  :judo:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 08, 2006, 05:52:20 PM
Yes! Roderick has been dead weight on the group for far too long!  It's time he started fighting Kushan sorcerers by himself, for once!

True, but I think you guys are all missing a very important and obvious element: that without a doubt, Magnifico will prove decisive in the battle against Daiba. It's about time he reveals his true power. I also expect Theresia to reappear any minute now and to defeat Guts single-handedly.

Well, why doesn't that Daiba dude use his magic for the transportation of the ship he is on, instead of having a crew to maneuver it

As Walter pointed out, I doubt he can use magic indefinitely. Also, he's some kind of admiral, do you really think he's going to waste his time and skill to propel his ship when he could just have a crew?

If he can make tornado's etc he should be able to move the ship doesn't he?

Not necessarily.

In any case this isn't certain. Same goes for the subordinate you were talking about. Maybe he already left the ship sooner or switched ships or something...

Yeah right, and to eat he fishes and cooks his food himself (or better yet: he doesn't eat, that's why he's all skinny!). And he also maintains the ship all by himself. Of course the oars and the sails are just there for decoration since it's a magic-powered boat. Tell you what: I'm not buying it. "Maybe" all the people on board stealthily disembarked because they somehow knew Daiba was going to fight against Guts and the others and they expected their vessel to be destroyed (hint: unlikely), but there was a crew to begin with. And I guess the ship was moving on its own in the harbor, the deployed oars and sails we were shown were just a cunning decoy? Sorry but I don't think so.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on April 10, 2006, 08:35:16 AM
Quote
hey do ya think theres other guys on that boat!? Wha we already saw one!? well he coulda left! what do yous think puck smells like? feet or someing lol!? does Guts have shave with his knife why doesn't he grow beard her!? and I never see him go to the bathroom! yud think someone would come out and say "you really got to take a dump dump dude lol" and how does he shit in that armor on? just go all out lol?! what town are they in elven yet? thanks azz for chapter. this stuff it in portant!

Yup.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Casan on April 10, 2006, 02:54:54 PM
Thanks for the episode Aazealh! This episode was very engaging, as always. Also, great insightful discussion in this thread!

In my opinion, Daiba will perish in this oncoming clash between him and Guts's group. I really can't see what he would be able to contribute with to the story past this encounter (with the possible exception of letting some useful information about something Ganishka related slip in his death throes). Hopefully, we'll get to see the others in the group put their skills to good use in the next few episodes. Maybe even Magnifico will get his time to shine (yeah, I'm not counting on it either)?

Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on April 10, 2006, 09:09:20 PM
In my opinion, Daiba will perish in this oncoming clash between him and Guts's group. I really can't see what he would be able to contribute with to the story past this encounter (with the possible exception of letting some useful information about something Ganishka related slip in his death throes).

Or telling Ganishka about Guts and possibly something to do do with Guts/Griffith if he shows up. Or anything Miura can think of, really. Who would have thought Silat was some important tribe leader back in volume 9, or that he'd still be a player today? Magnifico is a good recent example; would you have guessed that he'd be the gang's newest travel buddy, however long it lasts? Anyway, you're probably right about Daiba's doom, but examples from past incidents are better indicators (and probably the actual reason you hold that opinion) than one's lack of imagination.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on April 10, 2006, 11:35:52 PM
Well here is some more food for thought. Since Daiba can sense magical essences (I suppose that's a way of putting it) and possibly seeing the magical aura's that people may have on them. What if he were to be distracted by Casca? Since she in a sense gave birth to reborn Griffith along with having the brand. I think it would be pretty funny for her to play an important roll since she is still in her vegetable state.

Also my assumptions of Daiba being able to tell that magical properties and aura's of people are on that Schierke can view them, I can only assume that Daiba with his greater, I suppose "practical usage" has made him skilled enough that he can do this. Just my assumption. :puck:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on April 11, 2006, 01:44:33 AM
Well here is some more food for thought.  ...What if he were to be distracted by Casca? Since she in a sense gave birth to reborn Griffith along with having the brand. I think it would be pretty funny for her to play an important roll since she is still in her vegetable state.
If you consider that food for thought, what the hell have YOU been eating?   :guts:

And yeah, there's no evidence thus far that Daiba can detect Od the way that Schierke has in the past. Though, his comments on the armor are certainly curious.  Anyway, what sort of aura do you expect Casca projects?  A holy mother? 
:???:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Nickoten on April 11, 2006, 01:49:20 AM
"Kshatriya of Durga"

Loving all the Hindu references. I know it's a dead conversation now, but if it matters it doesn't seem like Miura's actively trying to follow mythos by the letter, especially since I believe I remember him saying something about choosing certain weapons/armor/etc that might seem unusual for the time period simply because they looked cool to him. Honestly, I don't think that looking at the references as mostly superficial (Though obviously he is looking at least a little deeper than just names) cheapens the effect at all. It gives us a link to our world. I think that's one effect Berserk does push quite well, in having a somewhat realistic medieval setting (Or at least more realistic than I personally am accustomed to reading of in Japanese manga) and at the same time having so many fantasy elements so as to emphasize said elements. I suppose you could sort of compare it to Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

Anyway, that's my two cents, hopefully I'm not annoying people by beating the dead horse.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 11, 2006, 02:07:53 AM
I don't mind the rest of your post but...

I suppose you could sort of compare it to Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

I'd rather not.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Nickoten on April 11, 2006, 06:30:29 PM
I'm not trying to compare Berserk's setting, more of its use of recognizeable elements to bring more attention to what is fantasy. I suppose from your post you're not a huge fan of King's way of handling it?

Or are you still sore about the finale?
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Walter on April 11, 2006, 10:34:53 PM
I'm not trying to compare Berserk's setting, more of its use of recognizeable elements to bring more attention to what is fantasy. I suppose from your post you're not a huge fan of King's way of handling it?
I think the problem in your comparison is just by the nature of the references these guys are using.   King draws on pop culture references (Wizard of Oz, Coke-a-Cola, Clint Eastwood, Seven Samurai etc.)  while Miura draws from ancient texts. 

Furthermore, they've incorporated them for apparently different purposes, too.  I'm no Dark Tower expert, and it's certainly a really confusing timeline/world but... my take on it is that King uses his fictional story to explain the origins of non-fictional pop-culture elements (for example, The Wizard of Oz and Seven Samurai are just facets of Roland's world, and his story), while Miura is just using non-fiction historical texts as a reference point for his world.

I'm sure Aaz will have more to say on this, but this is just my personal take on what you said.   :guts:

As for Dark Tower's ending, I personally really didn't enjoy anything after Gunslinger, but for what it's worth, I didn't mind the ending at all.  I even sort of liked it.  Besides, it's King's story and he can do what he wants with it.

PS: Midworld = ... Midland?!?! XD
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Nickoten on April 12, 2006, 12:34:57 AM
More like Midworld = Middle Earth = Midland (?)  :P

I see where you're coming from, though. It's just that they end up having the same effect on me, personally. For example, when you look toward Roland's childhood, while it does take place in a setting that itself is a mix of different cultures/times, it's somewhat more grounded, so to speak. It makes the existance of, say, the Oracle from The Gunslinger or Roland taking about taking mescaline to talk to spirits seem that much more fanciful. I'm not saying King and Miura are incorporating fantasy in the same way, just that it had the same effect on me as a reader.

Quote
Furthermore, they've incorporated them for apparently different purposes, too.  I'm no Dark Tower expert, and it's certainly a really confusing timeline/world but... my take on it is that King uses his fictional story to explain the origins of non-fictional pop-culture elements (for example, The Wizard of Oz and Seven Samurai are just facets of Roland's world, and his story), while Miura is just using non-fiction historical texts as a reference point for his world.

While that perspective is as valid as any, I personally figured these influences were to illustrate the many different but subtly linked worlds in the Dark Tower universe (Or, as the book puts it, the different levels of the tower). Some concepts will appear in more than one world, but for one reason or the other it will be applied differently. Kind of like how Father Callahan was travelling to other worlds under that bridge and found that in some that American currency had different presidents on its bills.

In other words, I don't think it's a matter of showing origin, just how these same things pop up in different levels of the tower in different ways.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 12, 2006, 01:05:18 AM
I'm not trying to compare Berserk's setting, more of its use of recognizeable elements to bring more attention to what is fantasy.

I just don't think they're comparable in any way, shape or form. Besides the fact that they're works of fiction of course. The references in themselves have nothing in common, the way they're used in both stories are completely different, and both works are pretty much unrelated. If by recognizable elements you mean human people and stuff that exist in our world, then basically every work of fiction is comparable. Sort of irrelevant if you ask me. Plus The Dark Tower series is pretty mediocre overall too (I know you wanted to hear it).

I suppose from your post you're not a huge fan of King's way of handling it? Or are you still sore about the finale?

Like Walter, I feel that the series went downhill after "The Gunslinger". The rest wasn't bad in itself but it was never as good as in the beginning to me. I don't think the ending's particularly good, but I didn't mind it much and I think it's the best out of all King's books for that matter. I also found the reference to the poem pretty neat. Now that isn't the topic of this thread at all, so no need to start a discussion about it here.

More like Midworld = Middle Earth = Midland (?)  :P

I can't see much of a connexion apart from having the syllabe "Mid" in common.

I'm not saying King and Miura are incorporating fantasy in the same way, just that it had the same effect on me as a reader.

Basically, both stories have a "real world" basis with fantasy elements in it. That can't be denied, however that isn't enough to make a valid/interesting/unobvious comparison between them, especially since the real world bases, fantasy elements, and the way they're used aren't the same. It's just a really common trait of fantastical works.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Nickoten on April 12, 2006, 01:19:08 AM
Quote
I can't see much of a connexion apart from having the syllabe "Mid" in common.

My comparison of Midworld to Middle Earth was just a reference to King's insertion of a number of Lord of the Rings references into the series, including the name. Midland obviously doesn't have that much in common with Middle Earth or Midworld save for the name, which I think was what Walter was referring to. My little comparison was not really to be taken seriously as they're related in different ways. Midworld and Midland only share the prefix as you said, while Midworld and Middle Earth share a little more. In the end it's just a miswritten comparison. Don't think too much on that equation part there, it's like scuba diving in a puddle.

As for your other points, I do agree that all fiction does this. I was just saying that I thought these two gave me a similar feeling because they were both purely fantasy works, though The Dark Tower is a bit heavier on its integration of fantasy and a modern world. My original point for bringing that up was just that it serves to give us a somewhat familiar world so that the way certain fantasy elements are used seem more out of place. You of course can see this in Berserk, but I brought this up with The Dark Tower because it uses this to a greater extent through the concept of alternate realities.

EDIT: Let me articulate this a little better. I'm grouping Berserk with other fantasy works that try to provide a somewhat realistic world. I pointed out The Dark Tower as a series that used this concept as an underlying theme particularly strongly.

That should sum it up decently, but now I'm realizing that someone is probably typing a response to the less clear portion of my post. Oops.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Aazealh on April 12, 2006, 01:39:38 AM
My little comparison was not really to be taken seriously as they're related in different ways.

Good, I thought as much but I wanted to hear it from you. :serpico:

I was just saying that I thought these two gave me a similar feeling because they were both purely fantasy works

Ok, I can understand that if you just meant it as a generic reference. Like I said, my only remark here would be that it's not especially relevant in the context, because a bit too broad and obvious. And I saw your edit after typing that, but that doesn't matter much as you can see.

My original point for bringing that up was just that it serves to give us a somewhat familiar world so that the way certain fantasy elements are used seem more out of place.

Then "somewhat" is the key here, because I can't say I'm really familiar with what's depicted in the Berserk world. :void: I get your point though, but I'm sticking to my original statement (I'd rather not compare the two).
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Nickoten on April 12, 2006, 01:50:43 AM
Yeah, that's the main difference. "Familiar" in Berserk's case would mean something that feels more realistic in tone. Maybe because it seems so bleak.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Griffith on April 12, 2006, 02:56:42 AM
I think series within the same genre feature many similar elements. But I'd like to really compare the literal and figurative journey in Berserk to the literal and figuative journey in all stories ever. They almost all have one, you know.

P.S. In the Dark Tower comic book, can Guts crossover into the DT series if Roland should find himself in the level of the Tower encompassing Midland!? :isidro:
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Forest Wraith on April 16, 2006, 09:27:41 AM
Heh: Roland draws, Guts swings: "Gaggghhh! My fingers!"

  As for the current topic: Adding those realistic elements to fantasy stories adds a sense of intimacy and reality for the reader. Rather then just a story from Miura's mind it becomes a part of our consciousness when we see elements of it that we can compare to reality.
 So many of the elements in Berserk are portrayed in a very realistic context that makes them as if they are part of a historical chronicle or mythological epic: War's, disasters, inquisitions, heroic figures . . . The collective consciousness of humanity; not just in the story either. Kentarou Miura is tapping very deep into archetypical consciousness with Berserk western archetypical consciousness in particular in my opinion: You have all the fears of European society at that time exemplified and put into a very immediate metaphorical and historical context. Our desperate hope for Holy Saviors that would save us from the invading armies who would take our lives and land, the Dragons who would eat us alive and also on a subconscious level; from our own inhumanity.
 In his own words:
Quote
Berserk fans abroad are very happy. If you have any messages to the fans in the U.S...
Actually I kind of have a question. What do Westerners think of this fantasy world created by an Oriental? Many of us Orientals feel that the fantasy worlds created in Hollywood... or believed in by Westerners are more genuine fantasy worlds. And I think Berserk is strongly influenced by Western culture. I'm trying to create something from what I learned from the West. So I'm curious about what people in the West think of Berserk. That's my question to the fans in the U.S. I hope they like it.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on April 16, 2006, 11:57:59 AM
You have all the fears of European society at that time exemplified and put into a very immediate metaphorical and historical context. Our desperate hope for Holy Saviors that would save us from the invading armies who would take our lives and land, the Dragons who would eat us alive and also on a subconscious level; from our own inhumanity.
I agree with you on that but people are still waiting for a "savior"(should it be science,E.T or a God) all around the world...wanting to be "freed" is part of the human nature  :void:.
For myself I found that Berserk even if it's a "fantasy" mange has a deep humanistic dimension.
Guts for example is THE man I don't mean he is a super man but a "real" man,a man living through his experiences ; in some mange/comics(bande dessinées)a character is nice so he'll live all his adventures as a "nice" man or "bad" guy etc in Berserk Guts for example is neither bad nor nice he don't even know what he wants...living with his beloved Casca,killing Griffith...and he's not even sure he wants to kill him...so every "adventures" he lives change him even subtly physically (scars and all) and "spiritually" and really even if Guts's main trait is stubbornness he still lives like a real human being.
So for the deepness of the characters(all the main characters and even some minor one are really well developed) and many other aspect Berserk is really a humanist work...beyond the greatness of the epic.
PS:Sorry for the rush at the end because I've things to do...
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Forest Wraith on April 22, 2006, 08:32:44 AM
Of course people are still waiting for a Savior but the concept of a savior is subject to change depending on time and place.
  One of Guts major traits as a main character is that he does not wait for a Savior, thus dooming himself to inaction and failure; but instead relies on himself for salvation. Even when he fails, he does not lose faith in his abilities or retreat into self-pity, doubt or second guessing. He simply acts and forces himself to do whatever is required to survive. That is the difference between him and those who are like him and the average person in his world who does not survive: The power of independence of thought and self-actualization.
  I would state that Berserk is the reverse of how you have described it: A great epic beyond the humanist story; Rather then "a humanist work...beyond the greatness of the epic." Considering that it is the individual narratives that create an experience that both encapsulates and transcends the individual.
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Mad Angel Loki on April 24, 2006, 04:19:51 AM
I still think it's a humanist work in the way that Guts live and act not passing through events but evolving with them...in the last post my point was more in the "realism" of the feelings of the characters of Berserk(Guts in this case)...
In berserk Miura depict(his) humanity and especially the "bad instincts" but Guts is the hero it's normal that he shines (a little bit)more than the other characters
Navertheless I disagree with you when you say that Guts don't doubt remember his reaction when he comes back to the BoTH he always wonder why he did leave them and IMO he regret that(even if he did not made anything wrong)...after the eclipse in the Retribution ARC he first turn "selfish"(he never was really selfish) then become the Guts you describe...he simply grown up!
Guts is stubborn he never keep trying but he's still a human...he teach to people that just wait and hope for a savior to live by themself ,in a way he teach them the true freedom...never giving up(or surviving) and living by yourself is the true fight of humanity;
the human being are(often) "afraid" of freedom, they don't know what to do when they are free  so they let Gods or Kings tell them what to do but Kings are human and Gods are created by humans and it's still human that tell you what Gods want so they can't make anything for you better than you can make yourself(if you try so)but you must have guts to do that and everybody isn't courageous...
Like Farnese once said after the fight with Mozgus Guts is the only true thing...in my eyes he's also the only true and "complete" human things, he's a hero because he isn't flawless or "doubtless" but he still continue to live...he's in my opinion what all human being should be!(And I want to add that Luca is the closest character to Guts in this way)
I really like the way you see Berserk but IMO even if it's a great epic the thing that make Berserk "special" is the humanism and "realism" of the characters and that's what made it a great humanist work...
That's all for tonight moreover I don't want to stay out of topic here(we should be talking about episode 271) so I suggest to open a new thread if you want to continue this discussion
C'ya
Title: Re: Episode 271
Post by: Forest Wraith on April 24, 2006, 09:47:48 PM
I didn't state that Guts never feels doubt; my point is is that he doesn't retreat into it by crying out for something or someone else to save him. He acts; that is what archetypical warriors do, they decide on the best possible course of action available and follow through to the best of their ability. Guts almost always has this simplified for him to the point of "Fight or die." However, it goes without saying that the average person in his circumstances would have suffered a collapse of some kind and been reduced to a state in which they would be incapable of acting.
  I think that we can just agree that Berserk is both a humanist work and an epic without having to argue over which is focused upon foremost in the story. I think that that most likely comes down to what elements we personally focus on anyway.