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Skullknight.net => Site & Forum News => Encyclopedia: Q&A => Topic started by: hardheart on May 25, 2006, 09:00:17 PM

Title: Long time lurker, lots of questions
Post by: hardheart on May 25, 2006, 09:00:17 PM
I tried doing a bit of searching of the entire forum and looked at the titles for every thread in this board in particular, but my efforts may have been inadequate and these could be well covered already.

Anyway, I am confused about how the elemental kings and Idea of Evil compare.  The Idea is a manifestation of man's desires, or something to that effect, so it is a creation of man, not a creator, as far as I can tell.  Are the kings similar, being creatures born of the elements, or are they the creators of the elements of the natural world?  For example, did the king of water (unsure of proper title) create the rivers and oceans, or did the rivers and oceans spawn the king?  Sort of a chicken/egg question, I suppose.

I also do not fully understand what it is either the Idea & God Hand or the kings do.  The Idea is supposed to effect causality, through the God Hand, if I understand correctly.  If that is the case, then that means that mankind's desires shape it's fate, which makes sense in a way, I guess.  But there seems to be a distinct malevolence to it (the Idea of Evil) and I'm trying to see how that factors into cause and effect of man's actions.  Is there some sort of move to destroy man through his own desires, or is it more an attempt to affect the entire physical plane and not just humanity?  That man is a negative force in the world?  Is the Idea a separate entity now, or is it a collective?  Does it work for or against mankind?  It seems it shouldn't, it manifested from people, so it should wish to sustain people.  But the actions of the God Hand and Apostles seem to be about destruction and suffering.  Is it atonement or cleansing perhaps?

Do the elemental kings work to counter/augment this, or is there disconnection, considering the fact that most of humanity has abandoned/ignored magic in the Berserk world?  I have read a few posts suggesting that the elemental kings are perhaps a force of 'good' in relation to the Idea of Evil.  I may be quite wrong, but the forces of nature appear somewhat neutral in the affairs of man.  It seems the elementals can be quite indifferent to man since they are not acknowledged by the judeo-christian element.  They will aid Schierkeon request, but don't appear to conflict with the Idea actively.  But the God Hand attacked Flora, who was a servant of sorts of the elemental kings.  

What kind of connection is there between the natural forces and the souls/spirits?  Are nature and magic the same in Berserk, is the power of the Idea magic of a similar vein?  Ganishka has powers beyond other apostles, and bestows it upon followers.  This magic seems to be nature based, while the God Hand displays don't appeared tied to the elements necessarily.  I have trouble understanding because of the separate worlds of Berserk.  There are beings that control the elements on the physical plane, yet exist on another.

Is there a suggestion of who/what the ultimate creator is in the Berserk world? Something that made the world and man?  I cannot tell if any beings so far create, they all seem to only manipulate.

This is more speculation, but would Guts be a result of the elemental kings, the Idea, or his own separate will forcing him to survive?  I can see the sort of parallel between he and Griffith in the way fate and the Idea has affected them, but Griffith was prophesied and became a God Hand.  Guts is human still, and I wonder what the significance of his struggle and survival is, why he survives when his comrades fall.  Is he somehow chosen as well?  I can't say that I understand how that works since there are beings that shape the future in Berserk.  I don't understand how far free will goes there.
Title: Re: Long time lurker, lots of questions
Post by: Aazealh on May 25, 2006, 09:09:14 PM
I tried doing a bit of searching of the entire forum and looked at the titles for every thread in this board in particular, but my efforts may have been inadequate and these could be well covered already.

Hello there hardheart, welcome. I'll answer your questions. :SK:

The Idea is a manifestation of man's desires, or something to that effect, so it is a creation of man, not a creator, as far as I can tell.

It's actually a bit different from what you're saying. I'll quote you what the Idea of Evil itself says in episode 83: "Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, Reasons for sadness, Reasons for life, Reasons for death, Reason why their lives were filled with suffering, Reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge. And I produce those, as it is what I've been brought into existence for."

So as you can see, the Idea of Evil was created from mankind's subconscious desire to have reasons for its pain and suffering. It's important to be precise here as this is an important nuance, one that also answers another question of yours. Anyway, it was indeed created by humanity and not the other way around.

Are the kings similar, being creatures born of the elements, or are they the creators of the elements of the natural world? Sort of a chicken/egg question, I suppose.

You're right, it's pretty much a chicken/egg question. We don't know anything about their origins yet (and we may very well never know). What we do know though is that they are the ultimate embodiment of their respective element, and that they have total sovereignty over it. They do not, however, relate to the creation of mankind as far as we know.

The Idea is supposed to effect causality, through the God Hand, if I understand correctly.

Not exactly. The Idea of Evil influences causality through means that we currently don't precisely know of (the closest indication is what it tells Griffith about his creation: "By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness and merging blood with blood, I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are."). The member of the God Hand are its emissaries and allow it to have a more direct impact over the world (by appointing apostles for example).

If that is the case, then that means that mankind's desires shape it's fate, which makes sense in a way, I guess.  But there seems to be a distinct malevolence to it (the Idea of Evil) and I'm trying to see how that factors into cause and effect of man's actions.

The Idea of Evil isn't just a mere manifestation of mankind's desires, it was born from humanity's collective consciousness but it's a distinct entity with an ego and its own will. Basically (simplifying things a bit) the Idea of Evil was created because people needed reasons for all the bad things that were happening to them and that they couldn't understand. Its role is to give them these reasons, and it's fulfilling it. It is the reason. It makes bad things happen, and it plots "evil" and manipulates the world to do so. Can you see the great, vicious logic in there?

Is there some sort of move to destroy man through his own desires, or is it more an attempt to affect the entire physical plane and not just humanity?

I don't think it tries to completely destroy mankind, its goal is more to reduce it to the lowest state possible IMHO (i.e. a bunch of uncultured savages, surviving only thanks to their high reproducing rate, always at war, never progressing in any direction, incapable of funding any form of coherent society, dying young, ridden with plagues, always at war with each other, always miserable from birth to death, etc). And I definitely think it's trying to gain control of the material world, maybe so it becomes omnipotent?

That man is a negative force in the world?

I don't think it fundamentally is, however it does have a great potential to do evil, as the story has shown us.

Is the Idea a separate entity now, or is it a collective?

I would call it separate. It was born from the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, but it's a distinct entity with an ego and its own will. It also has specific plans for humanity and seems to be doing what it deems necessary. Of course it's still related to the dark side of this collective consciousness, but it doesn't appear to be "obeying" it any more than vice versa.

Does it work for or against mankind?

I would definitely say against. Its goal isn't to make mankind prosperous or happy.

It seems it shouldn't, it manifested from people, so it should wish to sustain people.  But the actions of the God Hand and Apostles seem to be about destruction and suffering.

See what I said earlier. Also, I'll tell you something I've never said on this board, and that has never been said on the Internet either. In the original Japanese text for "Idea of Evil", 'idea' is the furigana. That means it's just how the name should be pronounced. The kanji Miura used is old, uncommon and pretty complicated. Its meaning is "the origin", or "the source". It doesn't just stop here however, because it is strongly related to water. As in a water source. As you might know, a lot of things relate to water in Berserk, most importantly the beherits and the Abyss. So anyway there you have it, the source of evil.

Considering the actions of the God Hand and the apostles, it brings us back to something interesting about humanity. The key rule is "do as you will". The members of the God Hand do what they want, and the same goes for the apostles. Yet they do "evil" things. Why? Because the Idea of Evil planned things so they would do it. It arranged causality so that what they want is to do what it wants them to do. And of course, it does so according to what it believes is the essence of humankind.

Is it atonement or cleansing perhaps?

No, definitely not.

Do the elemental kings work to counter/augment this, or is there disconnection, considering the fact that most of humanity has abandoned/ignored magic in the Berserk world?  I have read a few posts suggesting that the elemental kings are perhaps a force of 'good' in relation to the Idea of Evil.  I may be quite wrong, but the forces of nature appear somewhat neutral in the affairs of man.

The Elemental Kings don't actively work to counter the Idea of Evil's influence over the world, or if they do we don't know about it yet. I don't think the fact humans stopped practicing magic is the cause of this situation, to me they are just not interested in these matters. They might even not have enough of a consciousness to be able to. I don't really like to call them "good" myself, at least not in the "good opposing the Idea of Evil" way. I prefer to say they are pure. Pure, uncorrupted elements, a force of good but that doesn't necessarily work for the good of mankind, and that could actually work against it. So that makes them neutral in the affairs of man, like you said.

It seems the elementals can be quite indifferent to man since they are not acknowledged by the judeo-christian element.

I don't think it's related. The real elementals (salamanders, undines, sylphs, and the earth ones) are basically thoughtless, so they are not concerned by anything. The fact the Holy See in Berserk condemns the use of magic and refutes their existence isn't important, and I don't think it plays a role. Also, they are not totally absent from the Holy See's scriptures, the Elemental Kings are actually present in there but under a different name (see Schierke's discussion with the villagers in Enoch). I would also like to make it clear that while this religion has some similarities with judeo-christian elements it's incorrect to call it so. You won't find a single Christian cross in Berserk, and there are no churches, only temples (I could go on but you get the point).

They will aid Schierkeon request, but don't appear to conflict with the Idea actively.  But the God Hand attacked Flora, who was a servant of sorts of the elemental kings.

Flora wasn't the servant of anybody. Griffith attacked her because as a powerful witch that had ties with the Skull Knight she was a great threat to him. Anyway it's true that while the Elemental Kings aid Schierke on request, they don't appear to be in conflict with anything in particular, it relates to what I said a bit earlier. I think they could maybe end up opposing the God Hand's influence over the world though, if it threatened them in a way or another (the Idea of Evil might be unattainable even for them).

What kind of connection is there between the natural forces and the souls/spirits?

What do you mean exactly? There are elemental spirits like the Lady of the Depths or the Fire Wheel that we saw recently, but as far as human spirits go, they're not elemental so they don't directly relate. They can apparently interact though. But please keep in mind that we don't have that much information over these things yet.

Are nature and magic the same in Berserk, is the power of the Idea magic of a similar vein?

Magic is a delicate word. Schierke uses mostly (exclusively?) elemental magic as far as we know. The apostles, the God Hand, and of course the Idea of Evil also uses a magic of some sort, but it's seemingly completely different, and we don't know how they relate to each other (if they even do). They're not even really on the same level. I like to consider it human-based magic (since all of them came from mankind, the Idea, the GH, the apostles), but that's just playing around with words. It's not elemental magic, that's for sure, but I would call it magic anyway, though so far it hasn't been explained in magical terms nor seriously depicted as being a specific kind of magic.

Ganishka has powers beyond other apostles, and bestows it upon followers.  This magic seems to be nature based, while the God Hand displays don't appeared tied to the elements necessarily.

That's because Ganishka is a sorcerer as well as an apostle. Think of what would happen if Flora or Schierke became an apostle.

I have trouble understanding because of the separate worlds of Berserk.  There are beings that control the elements on the physical plane, yet exist on another.

Yes, but what don't you understand about this? The 3 worlds aren't completely separate from one another, that's why we say they're overlapping. What happens in one can have repercussion in another.

Is there a suggestion of who/what the ultimate creator is in the Berserk world? Something that made the world and man?

No.

This is more speculation, but would Guts be a result of the elemental kings, the Idea, or his own separate will forcing him to survive?

He's not related to the Elemental Kings since he's not elemental in any way, shape or form. He follows his own will of course, but that doesn't mean he's not playing a part in the Idea of Evil's scheme. He was the key element that brought Griffith to fulfill his destiny, so just from that we can be sure that Guts' life was arranged at least in part. The real question is does he still have a role to play in Idea's plans? Or is he just struggling against causality? We can't answer this for now, but don't forget that he carries a beherit, and that there are no coincidences in the Berserk world.

Guts is human still, and I wonder what the significance of his struggle and survival is, why he survives when his comrades fall.  Is he somehow chosen as well?

See above. Maybe, maybe not. He's most likely not destined to something great from the Idea of Evil's standpoint though.

I can't say that I understand how that works since there are beings that shape the future in Berserk.  I don't understand how far free will goes there.

I think I somehow answered that already. Each person is free and can do what they want. However, causality shapes the world and their lives in ways that alter everything to produce a specific result, that's the action of the Idea of Evil. It wasn't written in a divine book that Griffith was going to become Femto (unlike in Greek mythology), but his life and personality were shaped so that he would freely choose to sacrifice his friends. That makes the whole thing much more vicious and horrifying, but it also provides space for real free, independent will. It's not all decided in advance, some things happen that weren't planned. But it's very hard to work against such overwhelming powers, and that's why we currently don't know how Guts could possibly triumph from them.

Well, that's it. Sorry if it's a bit succinct but my first reply was lost in a tragic browser accident. :judo:
Title: Re: Long time lurker, lots of questions
Post by: hardheart on May 26, 2006, 01:37:48 AM
Hello there hardheart, welcome. I'll answer your questions. :SK:

thanks

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It's actually a bit different from what you're saying. I'll quote you what the Idea of Evil itself says in episode 83: "Humans desired reasons. Reasons for pain, Reasons for sadness, Reasons for life, Reasons for death, Reason why their lives were filled with suffering, Reasons why their deaths were absurd. They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge. And I produce those, as it is what I've been brought into existence for."

So as you can see, the Idea of Evil was created from mankind's subconscious desire to have reasons for its pain and suffering. It's important to be precise here as this is an important nuance, one that also answers another question of yours. Anyway, it was indeed created by humanity and not the other way around.

Ahh, yes, thanks for clarifying.  That is quite significant.

I wonder a bit how mankind, with the ability to think and feel, separates itself from the rest of nature and the physical realm.  As you pointed out, the intellect and emotion of man created the Idea of Evil to provide itself with answers.  That's an amazing power.

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Not exactly. The Idea of Evil influences causality through means that we currently don't precisely know of (the closest indication is what it tells Griffith about his creation: "By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness and merging blood with blood, I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are."). The member of the God Hand are its emissaries and allow it to have a more direct impact over the world (by appointing apostles for example).

The Idea of Evil isn't just a mere manifestation of mankind's desires, it was born from humanity's collective consciousness but it's a distinct entity with an ego and its own will. Basically (simplifying things a bit) the Idea of Evil was created because people needed reasons for all the bad things that were happening to them and that they couldn't understand. Its role is to give them these reasons, and it's fulfilling it. It is the reason. It makes bad things happen, and it plots "evil" and manipulates the world to do so. Can you see the great, vicious logic in there?

I don't think it tries to completely destroy mankind, its goal is more to reduce it to the lowest state possible IMHO (i.e. a bunch of uncultured savages, surviving only thanks to their high reproducing rate, always at war, never progressing in any direction, incapable of funding any form of coherent society, dying young, ridden with plagues, always at war with each other, always miserable from birth to death, etc). And I definitely think it's trying to gain control of the material world, maybe so it becomes omnipotent?

I don't think it fundamentally is, however it does have a great potential to do evil, as the story has shown us.

Hmm, I had been confused, thinking that the Idea was something more akin to the Fates (I admit I don't know much about mythology), having a hand in determining all outcomes.  But it has a more focused goal.


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I would call it separate. It was born from the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness, but it's a distinct entity with an ego and its own will. It also has specific plans for humanity and seems to be doing what it deems necessary. Of course it's still related to the dark side of this collective consciousness, but it doesn't appear to be "obeying" it any more than vice versa.

I would definitely say against. Its goal isn't to make mankind prosperous or happy.

It seems to be a really interesting twist on the idea that man determines his own fate.  In this case, man has created a power which will determine his fate.  Or at least influence it greatly.  A fear of the unknown essentially creating a guarantee that evil will happen, throwing away hope in a chaotic world for an oppressive, punishing order.  Expect the worst and you won't be disappointed, eh?

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See what I said earlier. Also, I'll tell you something I've never said on this board, and that has never been said on the Internet either. In the original Japanese text for "Idea of Evil", 'idea' is the furigana. That means it's just how the name should be pronounced. The kanji Miura used is old, uncommon and pretty complicated. Its meaning is "the origin", or "the source". It doesn't just stop here however, because it is strongly related to water. As in a water source. As you might know, a lot of things relate to water in Berserk, most importantly the beherits and the Abyss. So anyway there you have it, the source of evil.

So maybe he means man is the source of evil?  Especially if others, like the elemental kings, are neutral?  Maybe that man's perceptions created evil, not that evil existed for man to perceive.

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Considering the actions of the God Hand and the apostles, it brings us back to something interesting about humanity. The key rule is "do as you will". The members of the God Hand do what they want, and the same goes for the apostles. Yet they do "evil" things. Why? Because the Idea of Evil planned things so they would do it. It arranged causality so that what they want is to do what it wants them to do. And of course, it does so according to what it believes is the essence of humankind.

Kind of a rule that there are no rules.  And close to St Augustine, "Love and do as you will."

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The Elemental Kings don't actively work to counter the Idea of Evil's influence over the world, or if they do we don't know about it yet. I don't think the fact humans stopped practicing magic is the cause of this situation, to me they are just not interested in these matters. They might even not have enough of a consciousness to be able to. I don't really like to call them "good" myself, at least not in the "good opposing the Idea of Evil" way. I prefer to say they are pure. Pure, uncorrupted elements, a force of good but that doesn't necessarily work for the good of mankind, and that could actually work against it. So that makes them neutral in the affairs of man, like you said.

Yeah, pure, that's more what I was thinking.

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I don't think it's related. The real elementals (salamanders, undines, sylphs, and the earth ones) are basically thoughtless, so they are not concerned by anything. The fact the Holy See in Berserk condemns the use of magic and refutes their existence isn't important, and I don't think it plays a role. Also, they are not totally absent from the Holy See's scriptures, the Elemental Kings are actually present in there but under a different name (see Schierke's discussion with the villagers in Enoch). I would also like to make it clear that while this religion has some similarities with judeo-christian elements it's incorrect to call it so. You won't find a single Christian cross in Berserk, and there are no churches, only temples (I could go on but you get the point).

understood

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Flora wasn't the servant of anybody. Griffith attacked her because as a powerful witch that had ties with the Skull Knight she was a great threat to him. Anyway it's true that while the Elemental Kings aid Schierke on request, they don't appear to be in conflict with anything in particular, it relates to what I said a bit earlier. I think they could maybe end up opposing the God Hand's influence over the world though, if it threatened them in a way or another (the Idea of Evil might be unattainable even for them).

My mistake.  Bad choice of wording based on how Schierke must ask the elements for help, seeming subservient.  Also how some people claim to serve nature as they worship it.  What I wonder is if it could be a sort of man vs nature affair.  If man created the Idea of Evil, and it is a corrupting force; then the natural world may wish to rid itself of mankind.  In a way, the Idea is man fighting against the nature of the world, the chaos and uncertainty.  But I don't think there's anything supporting that.

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What do you mean exactly? There are elemental spirits like the Lady of the Depths or the Fire Wheel that we saw recently, but as far as human spirits go, they're not elemental so they don't directly relate. They can apparently interact though. But please keep in mind that we don't have that much information over these things yet.

I guess I'm just wondering if in Berserk there's perhaps some sort of exploration of man's connection to the natural order.  If his spirit is somehow separated.  The creation of the Idea, the way that magical beings avoid large human settlements, and so forth.

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Magic is a delicate word. Schierke uses mostly (exclusively?) elemental magic as far as we know. The apostles, the God Hand, and of course the Idea of Evil also uses a magic of some sort, but it's seemingly completely different, and we don't know how they relate to each other (if they even do). They're not even really on the same level. I like to consider it human-based magic (since all of them came from mankind, the Idea, the GH, the apostles), but that's just playing around with words. It's not elemental magic, that's for sure, but I would call it magic anyway, though so far it hasn't been explained in magical terms nor seriously depicted as being a specific kind of magic.

Yeah, instead of manipulating the elements, the GH seem to just express their will.

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That's because Ganishka is a sorcerer as well as an apostle. Think of what would happen if Flora or Schierke became an apostle.

That's what has me intrigued about Schierke being in the armor with Guts, who has that beherit.

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Yes, but what don't you understand about this? The 3 worlds aren't completely separate from one another, that's why we say they're overlapping. What happens in one can have repercussion in another.

I think it's the concept that the kings are on the astral plane instead of within the elements of the world on the physical plane.  But that's just my funky interpretation of stuff.

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He's not related to the Elemental Kings since he's not elemental in any way, shape or form. He follows his own will of course, but that doesn't mean he's not playing a part in the Idea of Evil's scheme. He was the key element that brought Griffith to fulfill his destiny, so just from that we can be sure that Guts' life was arranged at least in part. The real question is does he still have a role to play in Idea's plans? Or is he just struggling against causality? We can't answer this for now, but don't forget that he carries a beherit, and that there are no coincidences in the Berserk world.

See above. Maybe, maybe not. He's most likely not destined to something great from the Idea of Evil's standpoint though.

I think I somehow answered that already. Each person is free and can do what they want. However, causality shapes the world and their lives in ways that alter everything to produce a specific result, that's the action of the Idea of Evil. It wasn't written in a divine book that Griffith was going to become Femto (unlike in Greek mythology), but his life and personality were shaped so that he would freely choose to sacrifice his friends. That makes the whole thing much more vicious and horrifying, but it also provides space for real free, independent will. It's not all decided in advance, some things happen that weren't planned. But it's very hard to work against such overwhelming powers, and that's why we currently don't know how Guts could possibly triumph from them.

Well, I'm wondering how independetly the Idea can work from a true form of Fate in the Berserk world, if Guts is Guts for some sort of balance.  That despite the will of man and his desire to have a cause for all things, that cause (the Idea) could fall apart because of an even greater causality that even it is subject to.  That maybe the natural order (perhaps something beyond the elemental kings) has set the wheels in motion.  The machinations of the Idea are simply another piece to an even greater puzzle, and Guts was always intended to be the foil to Griffith.  Maybe.

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Well, that's it. Sorry if it's a bit succinct but my first reply was lost in a tragic browser accident. :judo:

works for me, thanks again
Title: Re: Long time lurker, lots of questions
Post by: Aazealh on May 26, 2006, 12:32:56 PM
I wonder a bit how mankind, with the ability to think and feel, separates itself from the rest of nature and the physical realm.  As you pointed out, the intellect and emotion of man created the Idea of Evil to provide itself with answers.  That's an amazing power.

Yeah, mankind's collective consciousness is apparently quite something. We don't know yet how much exactly it can affect the astral world and in what ways, but its impact is important.

Hmm, I had been confused, thinking that the Idea was something more akin to the Fates (I admit I don't know much about mythology), having a hand in determining all outcomes.

Well, there's no real manifestation of an inevitable fate in Berserk, Causality replaces it (with the accompanying nuances). When characters talk about fate it's generally as a concept and not a force really existing in the universe (like if I said "it was fate that my alarm clock died the day of my exam at school").

In this case, man has created a power which will determine his fate.  Or at least influence it greatly.  A fear of the unknown essentially creating a guarantee that evil will happen, throwing away hope in a chaotic world for an oppressive, punishing order.  Expect the worst and you won't be disappointed, eh?

Haha yeah, that's pretty much it. The problem is that it's the dark side of man's collective consciousness that gave birth to the Idea of Evil. On the bright side that leaves open the possibility of an unknown opposing force born from humankind (for example what some people would like to call "the Idea of Good"), but it's currently pretty unlikely than anything like it exists (and certainly not under the form of an "Idea of Good").

So maybe he means man is the source of evil?  Especially if others, like the elemental kings, are neutral?  Maybe that man's perceptions created evil, not that evil existed for man to perceive.

No, it's Its name. It doesn't refer to man. And your other question can't be answered for now ("did man create evil or was corrupted by it"), though we do know that man (involuntarily?) created the Idea of Evil. It's problematic because we'd have to define Evil first before discussing it, and information is scarce on the matter in the manga.

My mistake.  Bad choice of wording based on how Schierke must ask the elements for help, seeming subservient.

Well, the spirits can also be regarded as serving her, seeing how she summons them and uses their power to attain her goals.

Also how some people claim to serve nature as they worship it.

I don't think you should be talking about "nature" here. Sure, the elements can be considered as representing nature, but they're not the same thing. And while Schierke is very sensitive to the natural order of things in the world, she doesn't serve nature per se.

What I wonder is if it could be a sort of man vs nature affair. If man created the Idea of Evil, and it is a corrupting force; then the natural world may wish to rid itself of mankind.  In a way, the Idea is man fighting against the nature of the world, the chaos and uncertainty.  But I don't think there's anything supporting that.

The Elemental Kings could end up trying to get rid of mankind if they were threatened I guess, but that's really very speculative. I don't think they regard man as their enemy. And the Idea of Evil isn't a perfect embodiment of humanity's essence, it's only bad, whereas we can easily believe that man has good in him. There's also the fact that while we don't know exactly what are Idea's goals, it seems to be primarily (exclusively?) interested in the affairs of man. Anyway this is indeed complete speculation, nothing hints at an elemental forces/human derived ones conflict in the story so far.

I guess I'm just wondering if in Berserk there's perhaps some sort of exploration of man's connection to the natural order.  If his spirit is somehow separated.  The creation of the Idea, the way that magical beings avoid large human settlements, and so forth.

Human spirits are linked to their bodies, it can easily be seen in the manga. Basically people's spirit is inside them, and a wound to the spirit (what happened to Guts) has grave and direct repercussions on the material body. Magic users can leave their bodies and wander in the astral realm in "spirit form" or "astral form", but they stay linked by a "thread of light" (human spirits have also been called "bodies of light"). That link is also apparent in volume 28 when Schierke finds the hanged Kushans. Their spirits could not be freed until she burned their bodies. The creation of the Idea of Evil doesn't really relate to these astral bodies, as it seems it spawned from the collective consciousness of the whole species, not from individual wishes. Same for magical beings avoiding large human agglomerations, it's not directly related.

Yeah, instead of manipulating the elements, the GH seem to just express their will.

We don't know anything much about their powers, but keep in mind that the only times we saw them displaying awesome abilities they weren't in the material world. Prior to the completion of the God Hand they had a very limited direct influence over the world, but since the birth of Femto and his incarnation as a new Griffith the principles of the world have been changing, and their potency is increasing. Nevertheless, we have yet to see the extent of their powers.

That's what has me intrigued about Schierke being in the armor with Guts, who has that beherit.

I don't think any of them is going to use that beherit. Also, Schierke being in the armor with him was some kind of accident and while they managed to make good use of that situation I don't think it will be recurring.

I think it's the concept that the kings are on the astral plane instead of within the elements of the world on the physical plane.

The elements on the physical plane are directly related to the elementals. Fire is made of Salamanders, Water is composed of Undines, and the Air is swarming with Sylphs. The Elemental Kings are distinct entities, they are the highest representation of an element while the elementals are the lowest and most basic one.

Well, I'm wondering how independetly the Idea can work from a true form of Fate in the Berserk world, if Guts is Guts for some sort of balance.

I think the Idea of Evil is doing its best to control everything through Causality and thus might give the illusion of there existing a Fate that can't be fought against. However this has been said to be wrong (by SK) and was seemingly proved wrong when Guts (and friends) saved Casca during the mirrored Occultation. So I personally dismiss the idea of a Fate negating all possibility of free will (as in a totally prearranged Destiny for all living beings), I don't think it exists in Berserk. Like I said earlier, it's all about Causality. As for Guts being a balance, well I don't really think so, though I'm convinced he is a very important agent and factor in the whole thing (and an unsuspected and underestimated one it seems). That being said, there's no certainty on the matter.

That despite the will of man and his desire to have a cause for all things, that cause (the Idea) could fall apart because of an even greater causality that even it is subject to.  That maybe the natural order (perhaps something beyond the elemental kings) has set the wheels in motion.  The machinations of the Idea are simply another piece to an even greater puzzle, and Guts was always intended to be the foil to Griffith.  Maybe.

Hahah well, that's some great speculation you have here, but as you know it isn't supported by anything in the story so far. Which makes me think that it could be useful to remind everybody that episode 83 isn't called the "lost episode" for no reason: it was removed from the story and thus isn't canonical. We use a lot of informations coming from it for a lack of other sources but we should keep this fact in mind. I'd also like to point out again that I don't think you should refer to the Elemental Kings as agents of a "natural order" because that's assuming too much about things we don't know well enough.
Title: Re: Long time lurker, lots of questions
Post by: hardheart on May 26, 2006, 02:36:08 PM
ok, I won't quote again, as this thread is already pretty large with only 3 posts, lol.  I guess I really don't mean some greater power working against the Idea so much as I mean that man is imperfect, and man's creation must also be imperfect.  It has an elaborate plan and deep forethought, but does not exhibit direct control, only influencing in ways.  Guts was a necessary agent in the plan, and he needed to be a man of a certain type to get Griffith into a proper position.  But a man of this type, the kind the Idea needed to fulfill his plan for Griffith, had to also be the kind of man who could defy the God Hand for such a long time.  Can't yet really say if Guts is still fitting into the plan of the Idea, or if he is really a wildcard.

Anyway, I think I've taken this well past the scope of the encyclopedia board, so I'll stop.  If I have more speculative questions I'll post them in another board.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Long time lurker, lots of questions
Post by: Aazealh on May 26, 2006, 03:34:19 PM
I guess I really don't mean some greater power working against the Idea so much as I mean that man is imperfect, and man's creation must also be imperfect.  It has an elaborate plan and deep forethought, but does not exhibit direct control, only influencing in ways.

That's plausible. I don't think the concept of perfection (or perfect being) matters much here, because the Idea of Evil doesn't need to be perfect to reach its goal. However we know that it doesn't have absolute control over the world, it might be omniscient, but it's not omnipotent. This is highlit a few times through the manga and I guess it constitutes part of the uniqueness of this so-called God.

Guts was a necessary agent in the plan, and he needed to be a man of a certain type to get Griffith into a proper position.  But a man of this type, the kind the Idea needed to fulfill his plan for Griffith, had to also be the kind of man who could defy the God Hand for such a long time.  Can't yet really say if Guts is still fitting into the plan of the Idea, or if he is really a wildcard.

Yeah, the great question is currently whether Guts is still part of the plan or not, and to what extent his actions are/were planned. Let's not forget though that he wouldn't be where he is now if it hadn't been for the Skull Knight's help. Another unknown variable.

Anyway, I think I've taken this well past the scope of the encyclopedia board, so I'll stop.  If I have more speculative questions I'll post them in another board.  Thanks.

Ok, feel free to. I'm glad I could be of any help.