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Berserk => Character Cove => Topic started by: Walter on February 02, 2007, 05:57:40 AM

Title: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Walter on February 02, 2007, 05:57:40 AM
Since so few people seem to remember this guy, I was thinking on a thread focusing on this mysterious King Godot forged the Dragon Slayer for.

(http://skullknight.net/images/aolsier.jpg)
Supreme King Aolsier
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 02, 2007, 05:58:52 AM
Yeah I'm pretty sure he could take on SK if he still had the DS. I wonder what happened to him after he killed that dragon. Maybe that was Grunberd's brother or something.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: handsome rakshas on February 02, 2007, 06:07:18 AM
Yipes! I wouldn't want to meet up with HIM in a dark alley!
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: A.C on February 02, 2007, 06:40:23 AM
now hold on a minute. i was under the impression that the king banished Godo because Godo made a dragonslaying sword that nobody could wheel... which sort of implies that the king never used it.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 02, 2007, 06:43:26 AM
now hold on a minute. i was under the impression that the king banished Godo because Godo made a dragonslaying sword that nobody could wheel... which sort of implies that the king never used it.

He couldn't wheel it, but he could still use it to kill a dragon...
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 02, 2007, 11:10:16 AM
Maybe he used a crane? Or just a group of soldier lifted it?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Walter on February 02, 2007, 11:22:46 AM
Maybe he used a crane? Or just a group of soldier lifted it?
He's clearly wielding it with one hand in this shot.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 02, 2007, 11:54:32 AM
Magic. Elfish magic. That's the best explanation I can offer... That, or Godo wasn't being very clear when he explained it. Or, the thing we se in Aolsier's hand in the picture is actually a sign that states "Kill the Dragon!", not the DS itself.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: JZBaltazar on February 02, 2007, 11:57:58 AM
Aolsier might be an apostle who for some reason was not satisfied with the nature of the DS. Or somebody we know took care of him.  :SK:

It has been stated that DS acquired special abilities as Guts used it to cut through spiritual beings, but I do not remember Guts having any difficulties with cutting through that monster which came to Godo's house. Could it be that DS was already special because of the first owner?

Incidentally, is that supreme king riding a skinny rhino or a unicorn? :puck:
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 02, 2007, 12:17:24 PM
I think it's just very elaborate barding on a horse, from the shape of the head.
Sudden thought - you just raised the possibility of the Sword leaving Aolsier's hands upon his death. Also, we know no normal human lifted it before (thanks to Godo). Finally, we know the Berserker's Armour's previous owner died from overusing said armour. If the armour can amplify Guts' already impressive strength to the point of catching an entire ships mast, maybe it could boost a normal human (Aolsier) to the point of weilding the DS?
That'd be an interesting parallel between him and Guts.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 02, 2007, 12:41:50 PM
I'm thinking Aolsier might be waiting for Guts in Elfhelm, that'd be a nice twist. We don't know what happened to his kingdom after all. He could be like a new Skull Knight, a mentor that Guts would train under, something like that.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 02, 2007, 01:29:10 PM
Nice angle, but do you think Miura has built him up enough for that? He's only had a passing reference, to a point where some people don't even remember his name. But yes, the fact he was pictured could allude to a later appearence, so I see your point.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: space_elevator on February 02, 2007, 01:38:49 PM
I'm as obtuse as possible, but hopefully I won't disturb things by sticking this in here.  It might even play well to the intentions of the discussion.  :???:

Speaking of this mystery kingdom that commissioned the DS, it couldn't have been Eath, could it?  Lots of nobles and military commanders from all the "mainland" kingdoms saw the DS in Vritannis, but there wasn't any hint that anyone recognized the sword.  If you'll play along, assume for the purposes of speculation that Roderick, being young and disinherited, is simply unaware of this old story. The sword's backstory could be altogether unknown, or a state secret like Charlotte's maidenhead, but I kind of doubt that.  I think a "proclamation" sounds like it would've been widely circulated information, and people would've had some curiosity as to how that turned out.  I know Godo worked for a lord near the mountains where Guts encounters him, but the location of the kingdom that requested the DS isn't suggested by the text, is it?  DH uses the article "a".  It doesn't really spell out the relationship between Godo's lord and the castle/king Godo escaped from.  Perhaps they were college buddies?  It would at least explain how Godo could safely hide near his original workplace if the castle he escaped from was actually very far away.  I hope it's okay to bring all that up.  I had to rework it a little for the sake of "brevity".

More likely, there won't be so much additional backstory, but all in fun.  It's a goofy idea I enjoyed thinking up.  I know I didn't tie it together with Aolsier, but I came up with this independently, and it just seem like as good a place as any to mention it.  More fuel for the fire, if nothing else.  Flamify!
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 02, 2007, 01:59:20 PM
That does make me question where Aolsier was king of, actually - Kushan doesn't have a title of 'King', and he isn't mentioned in Midland Royalty.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 02, 2007, 02:45:21 PM
Speaking of this mystery kingdom that commissioned the DS, it couldn't have been Eath, could it?

It's not impossible, but it probably wasn't Ys. Too far away/hard to reach, for one thing. But who knows.

Lots of nobles and military commanders from all the "mainland" kingdoms saw the DS in Vritannis

"All" the mainland kingdoms? Who's to say how many of them there are? And from what Godot said he forged the DS when he was young, that can mean up to 50 years ago. It shouldn't come off as a surprise then that the people in Vritannis aren't recognizing it. Not to mention that after what happened to Godot the DS was probably not a popular topic at the court.

the location of the kingdom that requested the DS isn't suggested by the text, is it?

No, it's not suggested.

It doesn't really spell out the relationship between Godo's lord and the castle/king Godo escaped from.

Godot has no lord... The local guy he made equipment for most likely isn't related to the kingdom he used to live in. Don't forget he escaped that kingdom in order to save his life.

It would at least explain how Godo could safely hide near his original workplace

Nothing hints anything about Godot's "original workplace" in the manga. I don't think you should assume that.

That does make me question where Aolsier was king of

Tudor of course!
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 02, 2007, 03:11:39 PM
Tudor of course!
Gah! How did I forget about Tudor... *sits in the corner with dunce hat*
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: A.C on February 02, 2007, 04:22:26 PM
i'm confused. i don't recall that picture from the manga, nor the name Aolsier. neither is in volume 14.

this is what is said on page 32 and 33 in volume 14:

Godo: A king sent out a proclamation long ago... and so the lord put me on the job... to bring him a sword that could kill a dragon...

Godo: At that time, I'd gotten sick of doing work for nobles. "Make 'em refined, make 'em elegant..." Swords are just large butcher knives, after all. Tools meant for killing people.

Godo: And so I forged it... as it was described. A sword that could butcher a dragon.
[picture of dragon killed by the sword, imagined by Godo]

Rickert: S-so then...?

Godo: I almost got hung out to dry... so i ran away from the castle town, and i've lived here quietly since. I sure was young back then. Mighty things, things that could kill. That's all there was for me. But if anyone could handle this, It'd still just be a hindrance. I don't like losin' track of the essence of a tool, but that's exactly what I did here. Now it's a good reminder.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 02, 2007, 05:32:20 PM
Well, to be honest, I'm one of the people who doesn't remember him  :???:
So I'm just checking volume 14...
Edit:
HAH! I get it now  :guts: Keeping my sig anyway.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: space_elevator on February 02, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
It's not impossible, ... But who knows.
Yay! Reasonable doubt!  I can't express my joy.

...after what happened to Godot the DS was probably not a popular topic at the court.
 
Sorry, I was just trying to suggest the author had an opportunity to expand the backstory there, and didn't.  That's no basis for conclusions, but it was the last opportunity for Guts (w/DS) to interact with those groups and expand on his relationships with them, for a good long while anyway.  If we're going to get DS backstory, I'd guess it could only occur where Guts is/going, or with Rickert & Erica, since they're really the only characters in the story I assume would express knowledge or interest in the DS.  It's plausible Rickert & Erica could turn up with the Holy See Alliance, thus putting them in range of Tudor...s? (plural?)  I'd just get a kick out of seeing them interact with Schierke and Isidro, so I'd prefer them out towards Y's (like the game?).  My silly story isn't necessary for that, and the DS backstory would probably be paired with it being reforged/repaired so it doesn't break, as Godot alluded to the last time he checked it... but getting them back in the story, I'm very curious how Miura will do it.  My twisted reasoning was largely a wild guess at that.

Godot has no lord... The local guy he made equipment for most likely isn't related to the kingdom he used to live in. Don't forget he escaped that kingdom in order to save his life.
 Can't translantions be confounding?  I was referring to the same "local guy" via the DH interpretation, and basing part of what I said on a comment Erica makes about Godot previously.  DH went with "Daddy's real famous in town", blah blah, "local lord"; Puella renders it "called a master smith in this town", "the lords back then".  I'm not sure where Godot's hut is in relation to this town, and the sequence of events in general.  Could anyone enlighten me?

1. Young Godot does work for a local guy/lord, who lives in a town.
Is it the same town Erica brags Godot is known in; near the mine?
2. A King wants a sword to kill a dragon.
This is a different person than Young Godot's previously mentioned employer right?  And is there any indication of how this king relate to that town, or the Young Godot town, if there are two different towns?
3. Godot makes the sword, pisses off "the castle".
Did he go to the castle, send the sword to the castle, mail them a picture of it?  How much is absolutely stated?  The DS either never changed hands, was returned to him, or he took it back somehow, because he's still got it when Guts shows up (how explicit is the timeframe?) fifty years later.  ...Well, we can rule out it not changing hands, on account of Supreme King Aolsier, duh.
4.Godot escapes the castle.  Subsequently, lives in the hut where Guts interacts with him.
Does it state he physically escaped custody, or "escaped" prosecution/a punishment?  On one end of the spectrum he would have to physically break out of a dungeon and hightail it, possibly with a wagonload of large metal objects, on the other, perhaps his life is spared by the king (Supreme King Aolsier, it just roll off the tongue.) but told: "you'll never work in this town again", hence his current digs.

Nothing hints anything about Godot's "original workplace" in the manga. I don't think you should assume that.
 No, there isn't anything like that in the background he and Erica supply.  But thinking about it, the DS was made a long time ago.  Was Godot at the hut when he made it, and if not, is it still a certainty it was made from the precious Elf Metal?  All I remember is a statement that he settled there because of the ore, not that the DS was made from it.  I had based my statement on that, but now that you pointed that out I can't recall if it was established that the DS was made from the ore in the cave.  Did Skull Knight say so at some point?  Naturally the lack of affirmative proof would not mean it was not so, but it seems worth mentioning.  The first sword Guts used on the bulldog/pig apostle a Godot's place likewise isn't explicitly identified as being made out of local ore, but since it was made so recently at that location one assumes so.  It didn't seem to gain any particular bonus from that, if it was made from...Elftainuim...Dwarfanite...ooh, I've got it, Aolsier Metal.

SKA FTW!  By the way, that image isn't from volume 14.  I just have the american releases, and haven't gotten the 15th yet.  I'd look through all of mine for the image, but it's too much work.  If someone else is looking through theirs, perhaps we could split our already small collection in two, and check half of it.  I think I could meet that challenge.  Or, that image isn't in any of the volumes I'm familiar with.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 02, 2007, 11:10:27 PM
Yay! Reasonable doubt!  I can't express my joy.

Well if that's what "unlikely" means to you, sure. :void:
  
Sorry, I was just trying to suggest the author had an opportunity to expand the backstory there, and didn't.  That's no basis for conclusions, but it was the last opportunity for Guts (w/DS) to interact with those groups and expand on his relationships with them, for a good long while anyway.

The situation wasn't exactly propitious to such a thing though. There were more pressing matters at the time.

If we're going to get DS backstory, I'd guess it could only occur where Guts is/going, or with Rickert & Erica, since they're really the only characters in the story I assume would express knowledge or interest in the DS.

I'd say it's more likely to occur where Guts is going. Hence the idea of him meeting Aolsier in Elfhelm.

Y's (like the game?)

Ys like the legendary maritime city. The game series takes its name from it too, but the original tale is likely what the name is referencing in Berserk. Please note that no official spelling has been confirmed for now though.

I was referring to the same "local guy" via the DH interpretation, and basing part of what I said on a comment Erica makes about Godot previously.  DH went with "Daddy's real famous in town", blah blah, "local lord"; Puella renders it "called a master smith in this town", "the lords back then".  I'm not sure where Godot's hut is in relation to this town, and the sequence of events in general.  Could anyone enlighten me?

I know you meant him, but my point is that the guy isn't Godot's lord. He rules on a town nearby, maybe a few others as well, but Godot lives remotely in the moutain, all by himself, and the guy's got no authority on him. So it can't be said that he's his lord. I think you're really confused about this whole thing so I'll try to explain below.

1. Young Godot does work for a local guy/lord, who lives in a town.

No, Godot used to work for various nobles in an unknown kingdom back in the day. The same kingdom he fled after the DS fiasco.

Is it the same town Erica brags Godot is known in; near the mine?

Not at all.

2. A King wants a sword to kill a dragon.
This is a different person than Young Godot's previously mentioned employer right?  And is there any indication of how this king relate to that town, or the Young Godot town, if there are two different towns?

There's no mention of a "previous town." The only town mentioned is the one near Godot's current place, by Erica. Back in the day, Godot used to work in an unknown kingdom, for important nobles (what is referred to as "lords" in the translation). These nobles can't be compared to the little chieftain that rules over the small town near Godot's hut. There's lord and lord basically. So these various, unnamed nobles were clients of Godot, and resided in the unknown kingdom he escaped from after the DS incident. So far at that point in time, Godot has been living in that unknown kingdom, and has never been at the mine or the hut where he'd later live (after fleeing his country).

3. Godot makes the sword, pisses off "the castle".
Did he go to the castle, send the sword to the castle, mail them a picture of it?  How much is absolutely stated?  The DS either never changed hands, was returned to him, or he took it back somehow, because he's still got it when Guts shows up (how explicit is the timeframe?) fifty years later.  ...Well, we can rule out it not changing hands, on account of Supreme King Aolsier, duh.

It's likely he lived in the capital city of that kingdom back then, as he used to work for important nobles, that likely lived at the king's court. There are no precisions in that regard. And he took the sword (and some of his other belongings) with him as he escaped of course.

4.Godot escapes the castle.  Subsequently, lives in the hut where Guts interacts with him.
Does it state he physically escaped custody, or "escaped" prosecution/a punishment?

He physically escaped custody. Fled from jails under the castle.

perhaps his life is spared by the king (Supreme King Aolsier, it just roll off the tongue.)

Nope.

"you'll never work in this town again", hence his current digs.

A king rules over a kingdom, not a town. Again, the only town ever mentioned is the small one near the hut, and it's when Erica brags that he's famous in there.

As a recap: Godot lived in a foreign kingdom, and had prestigious clients. He was bored of forging jewels-encrusted swords though, and took up the king's order for a sword that could kill a dragon literally, knowing full well he'd piss him off but going for it anyway. He was sentenced to death, but promptly escaped from a maximum security jail. He ran far, far away, and settled in a desolated place in which he had never come before. There his masterful smithing skills made him famous to the local hicks.

No, there isn't anything like that in the background he and Erica supply. [...] Was Godot at the hut when he made it

No, he wasn't.

is it still a certainty it was made from the precious Elf Metal?

There's no such thing as Elf Metal, and it's quite certainly not made of metal from the mine he ended settling nearby. It's just extremely unlikely he knew of that mine while living so far away from it.

The first sword Guts used on the bulldog/pig apostle a Godot's place likewise isn't explicitly identified as being made out of local ore, but since it was made so recently at that location one assumes so.

Yes, the first sword was definitely made from local ore. Unlike the DS, which Godot made before coming to live there. Of course, nothing indicates that metal from that mine would be special in some way.

By the way, that image isn't from volume 14.

Must like volume 13's episode 83, it was never published in volume form. Miura removed several pages from episode 93 at the time, apparently because it revealed too much about future events... Not much more is known though.

Well, I hope I helped you see clearer in all of this! :guts: Anyway, I think it'd be better to focus on Aolsier himself since this thread is in Character Cove (and our lengthy posts aren't exactly on topic). The origins of the DS itself have already been discussed at length in a number of other threads, I recommend you to check them out. =)
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: A.C on February 03, 2007, 06:51:02 AM
He was sentenced to death, but promptly escaped from a maximum security jail. He ran far, far away, and settled in a desolated place in which he had never come before. There his masterful smithing skills made him famous to the local hicks.

that's very specific, i'm not sure we can know for sure if he was ever imprisoned or sentenced to death. and why do you think it was a maximum security jail?

Godo said they almost hung him out to dry... which could mean that they intended to hang him, but that seems awefully harsh punishment and i'm not sure Godo is saying it litterary.

now for Aolsier. is there any scans of these removed pages to be found like episode 83? or maybe just a transcript of the text on the pages? if all the info on Aolsier has been removed from the volumes then it's a little hard to discuss him.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 03, 2007, 07:14:58 AM
that's very specific, i'm not sure we can know for sure if he was ever imprisoned or sentenced to death.

They almost hung him, that's what a sentence to death is. And he escaped from under the castle, where he was detained. What's under a castle except for jails? The kitchen? Maybe they planned to have him wash dishes or something? :schierke:

and why do you think it was a maximum security jail?

Someone didn't grow up watching the A-Team.

Godo said they almost hung him out to dry... which could mean that they intended to hang him, but that seems awefully harsh punishment and i'm not sure Godo is saying it litterary.

That "seems?" Like, you're not believing what he's saying? I think it's pretty literal, what with the gesture he makes saying it and all. And for someone that angered a king, death isn't surprising. Look at the king of Midland. Anyway, I don't see any reason to doubt what's said in the manga.

now for Aolsier. is there any scans of these removed pages to be found like episode 83? or maybe just a transcript of the text on the pages? if all the info on Aolsier has been removed from the volumes then it's a little hard to discuss him.

I think Wally has a transcript up like he does for episode 83 on the site.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: A.C on February 03, 2007, 07:19:19 AM
And he escaped from under the castle, where he was detained. What's under a castle except for jails?

i can't recall a sentence like that from the volume. was it also removed by Miura?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 03, 2007, 08:01:37 AM
i can't recall a sentence like that from the volume. was it also removed by Miura?

Nope, it's in there. You can check puella's translation of this scene here: http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=4811.0
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: A.C on February 03, 2007, 08:27:29 AM
since Miura removed the pages with Aolsier, maybe we should respect Miura's wishes and not discuss him at all. perhaps it's better if we tried to remove the name from our memories. i'm sure that's what Miura would want.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 03, 2007, 08:34:52 AM
since Miura removed the pages with Aolsier, maybe we should respect Miura's wishes and not discuss him at all. perhaps it's better if we tried to remove the name from our memories. i'm sure that's what Miura would want.

Well, it doesn't hurt to talk about it... Episode 83 was also removed and we still discuss it anyway. Just saying... He's an interesting character, and a potential plot twist in the future.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Forest Wraith on February 04, 2007, 02:00:21 AM
Well, if Miura removed all mention of him, what chances are there of him ever making an appearence again? Not to say that I agree that he shouldn't be discussed.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Rhombaad on February 04, 2007, 03:03:37 AM
Well, if Miura removed all mention of him, what chances are there of him ever making an appearence again? Not to say that I agree that he shouldn't be discussed.

It's not that we'll never see The Idea or Aolsier again, I think it's just that Miura felt he introduced them too soon and is saving them for later on in the story.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 04, 2007, 03:05:30 AM
Yeah and he mentioned Aolsier again in an interview in 2003 that was published in Young Animal Arasi. Was just a passing reference but that means he's not completely forgotten about him.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Tzur on February 04, 2007, 04:21:24 AM
You wouldn't happen to have the interview, would you? I searched and found nothing.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 04, 2007, 04:47:11 AM
Unfortunately I don't have that particular magazine and I don't think anybody made a transcript back then. If somebody could buy it from Yahoo! Japan auctions and scan it... But that's kind of a hassle. :(
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Walter on February 04, 2007, 05:55:32 AM
Yeah, it's surpising how little info there is on such an apparently major character in the Berserk history. Very ... odd, don't you think?  :???:

All we really know is:

-He was the king for whom Godot forged the DS
-It's said he would appear again
-He may be related to Boscone, since they bear a pretty strong resemblance (at least, in this shot), and could be the exiled (dead/undead?) King of Tudor

Like Aaz said, if he's the original owner, and that's all we really know about him, it seems pretty clear he'll come back for it, if he comes back at all. It was never Guts' to begin with really...  :guts: That elemental ax looked pretty cool to me :ganishka:
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 04, 2007, 06:44:17 AM
That elemental ax looked pretty cool to me :ganishka:

Yeah it was kick ass. I still regret that Guts didn't accept it.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Forest Wraith on February 04, 2007, 10:02:48 AM
Probably one of the most thick-headed things he's ever done . . . His more rash decisions you can at least understand once you know everything about Guts' back-story and his as personality . . . But in that case he didn't even bother to ask what it did:
"Oh, the Spirit Gnomes bury your enemies alive and crush them to death whenever you strike it against the ground."
 
That being said, I find it really weird that Miura would remove something as important as Aolsier's history with Godo and The Dragonslayer only to just have him pop up later on . . . Maybe he just really wants it to be a surprise?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Skullgrin140 on February 04, 2007, 11:30:20 AM
Looks like a really badass character, Wouldnt want to meet up with him. Still it would be interesting to see both him and Guts thrash eachother around, DS Vs DS
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: space_elevator on February 04, 2007, 11:42:58 AM
Hmm, if we examine that image carefully, Aolsier looks posed the way Miura draws characters leading battle charges, doesn't he?  If we know he was the King of Tudor and the Dragon Slayer was forged during the Hundred Years War, it stands to reason he might have been a powerful field general.  I'd venture this dragon that he fought was a powerful enemy from the Midland side.  This dragon would've been similar to Zodd, a legendary battlefield figure who fought in certain battles in the war.  Perhaps there's an ingenious twist to all this, and Aolsier is someone we've already seen with a double identity.  Perhaps that dragon as well.

Putting aside speculation about Aolsier and relying solely on "Armament", I'd assume the dragon the king was trying to kill was an Apostle, if there was a dragon.  The closest we've come to one so far has been Grunbeld, right?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 04, 2007, 11:45:55 AM
Yeah it was kick ass. I still regret that Guts didn't accept it.
Let's be honest, if Guts used the Axe, he'd have broken it by now.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 04, 2007, 11:55:24 AM
Putting aside speculation about Aolsier and relying solely on "Armament", I'd assume the dragon the king was trying to kill was an Apostle, if there was a dragon.  The closest we've come to one so far has been Grunbeld, right?

I tell you guys, it was Grunberd's brother. I have a hunch about it.

Let's be honest, if Guts used the Axe, he'd have broken it by now.

What makes you think so? It looked quite sturdy, and it was magical. I don't think he would have broken it.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 04, 2007, 12:28:25 PM
What makes you think so? It looked quite sturdy, and it was magical. I don't think he would have broken it.
Hmm... I guess magic is an Infallible defense, in any argrument...
But I suppose the axe has other flaws. For example, in the fight against Serpico - the axe handle wouldn't provide a decent defense against falling rubble like the DS blade did. Or fighting the big whale things whose fancy Kushan name I've forgotten - he tends to have to resort to full-on imapling with the DS to kill them. Using an Axe, he'd have to chop away for a fairly long time. Still, my main point is that Guts is a swordsman, and possibly the best at that. Using the Axe could have given him some new magical tricks to play with, but it'd take some getting used to. Dozens of times, he's stated that the sheer size of the DS is all that protects him from the attacks of Apostles, so I think it's fair to say he made the right choice.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Judo on February 04, 2007, 01:43:45 PM
i bet that aolsier is the so called king hanafubuku.
since puck noticed some elvish-like aura on skully, it could be possible that aolsier has gone through a fate that has been very alike and has now reached his ultimate elf-powers wich allowed him to found his elf-kingdom on skellig.
or maybe he was washed up on the beach of skellig after a big sea-battle and made a deal with the elves(like with the god hand) to inherit their powers in order not to die.
of all berserk-characters, aolsier indeed holds the greatest potential... and grunberd arriving at elfhelm in order to seek revenge for his mother surely will boil down to a totally kickass fight between mr. firedragon and aolsier/hanafubuku. 
 :guts:
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Forest Wraith on February 04, 2007, 04:30:14 PM
Maybe the Elves are free-spirited enough to accept a Demi-Human as king but I don't see why Aolsier would bother changing his name. More then likely, they are two different people.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 05, 2007, 02:10:10 AM
maybe he is a Skull Knight-like character, but is instead the "Dragon Knight"? :troll:
Anyway, could be that he needed it to kill an apostle that looked very much like a dragon, just look at the apostle on the cover to Volume 3 (looks like a dragon to me, anyway).
However, it seems odd that Godot would be sentenced to death for making the DS; since Aolsier was apparently able to hold it high with one arm.
Maybe he was too slow with it and died in battle by the hands of a human, and that's why Godot was sentenced to death? Godot did say "But it's nothing more than a burden when a tool goes beyond the ability of the owner." (according to puella's translation in the link that Aaz posted.)
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Walter on February 05, 2007, 02:22:23 AM
Maybe he was too slow with it and died in battle by the hands of a human, and that's why Godot was sentenced to death? Godot did say "But it's nothing more than a burden when a tool goes beyond the ability of the owner." (according to puella's translation in the link that Aaz posted.)
I think you're misunderstanding Godot's quote there. The DS had transcended its nature because it couldn't be used as a weapon by humans. Maybe Aolsier was something more?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 05, 2007, 02:26:57 AM
I think you're misunderstanding Godot's quote there. The DS had transcended its nature because it couldn't be used as a weapon by humans. Maybe Aolsier was something more?
I got that, I think you misunderstood me... I was saying that Aolsier died in a battle because he couldn't actually use it effectively.
And they sentenced Godot to death because the sword couldn't be used to kill humans, much less a dragon.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Walter on February 05, 2007, 02:30:23 AM
I got that, I think you misunderstood me... I was saying that Aolsier died in a battle because he couldn't actually use it effectively.
And they sentenced Godot to death because the sword couldn't be used to kill humans, much less a dragon.
No, I got that, I just don't think he's dead, since it's been said he'll return. Godot was sentenced because his sword was a slap in the face to humanity, who couldn't possibly wield the DS, and conversely, who couldn't possibly surmount a dragon (which is why I think Aolsier was something more).
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 05, 2007, 02:31:56 AM
When people saw that Aolsier could use the DS, they started doubting his humanity. Kind of like when Silat saw the true face of Ganishka. So understandably Aolsier was pissed off, I mean he probably meant to pass for a human while being something more and that ruined his plan. Now the true question is what was his plan? Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Walter on February 05, 2007, 02:33:42 AM
I guess all this talk begs the question: does Guts match up to someone like Aolsier? If Aolsier is someone with superhuman abilities, and was the only other person able to wield he sword, what does that make Guts?

Aaz, what was Aolsier's plan? Probably to gather all the greatest blacksmiths in the country (world?) to create a sword actually capable of fighting dragons. Once he got what he came for, maybe there was no reason to "fake" being human anymore.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 05, 2007, 02:37:21 AM
I guess all this talk begs the question: does Guts match up to someone like Aolsier? If Aolsier is someone with superhuman abilities, and was the only other person able to wield he sword, what does that make Guts?
The biological son of Aolsier? :troll:
(hey, it's possible...)

@Aaz: that's very likely, but only because this is Berserk we're talking about...
@Walter's reply to me: probably more likely, in the world of Berserk...
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on February 05, 2007, 02:41:01 AM
I guess all this talk begs the question: does Guts match up to someone like Aolsier? If Aolsier is someone with superhuman abilities, and was the only other person able to wield he sword, what does that make Guts?

Aaz, what was Aolsier's plan? Probably to gather all the greatest blacksmiths in the country (world?) to create a sword actually capable of fighting dragons. Once he got what he came for, maybe there was no reason to "fake" being human anymore.
I would almost willing to bet that its someone that we already have seen. Also if King Aolsier is on Elfhelm, I would imagine that Puck would have said something by now about a guy who somewhat resembles Guts whether it be his strength, demeanor, or what not. I know Puck is forgetful of tings but it seems like this would be one topic he wouldn't forget... maybe we will get it when they pan back to Guts and Co when they are traveling on the ship.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 05, 2007, 02:45:00 AM
I guess all this talk begs the question: does Guts match up to someone like Aolsier?

Before the Berserk's armor I'd have said no, but now... Maybe.

Aaz, what was Aolsier's plan? Probably to gather all the greatest blacksmiths in the country (world?) to create a sword actually capable of fighting dragons. Once he got what he came for, maybe there was no reason to "fake" being human anymore.

Good question, but what purpose did that serve then? I don't think he only planned to kill a single "dragon" (apostle?). I'm curious as to what happened to him afterwards. SK seems to know of his existence, so the more I think of it the more I'm believing he'll show up in Elfhelm. Training Guts with the DS so he can take up the God Hand.

The biological son of Aolsier?

Actually, why not. We've never seen or heard anything about Guts' father, and Guts' strength is incredible, beyond that of humans. If Aolsier is really the king of Elfhelm then that would make Guts an elfman, a theory that was pretty popular back in 2001.

The more we discuss this, the more I think it makes sense. I think we're on to something here.

I would almost willing to bet that its someone that we already have seen.

Hmm, but who? Maybe he's lying in wait for something to happen? You're not thinking of Ganishka, are you? Maybe he would have ordered the DS created to fight against Griffith?

Also if King Aolsier is on Elfhelm, I would imagine that Puck would have said something by now about a guy who somewhat resembles Guts whether it be his strength, demeanor, or what not. I know Puck is forgetful of tings but it seems like this would be one topic he wouldn't forget...

But do you remember Puck's strange reaction when the king of Elfhelm was mentioned? He stayed silent when Isidro and Ivalera teased him... It was very strange, I think he knows something he's not saying. Maybe he doesn't want Guts to discover the truth for some reason.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aeglos on February 05, 2007, 04:36:52 AM
Hmmm, I've been thinking...

Aolsier was the previous owner of the DS. Godot managed to rescue the blade and run away with it after being sentenced. Then I wonder; Would someone who had been able to wield such enormous and destructive blade, powerfull enough to hurt and kill a Dragon, be satisfied with some other sorry excuse for a sword?
If he is indeed returning, I wonder what kind of weapon will be under his possesion then... Something similar to the DS? Something even bigger and stronger?

I, for one thing, wouldn't want nothing even a bit less powerfull for a replacement after wielding the DS... Nor would Guts I believe. If he ever lost the DS, he would forever miss it and long for something of similar capabilities and power. I think it is natural to think that Aolsier would also, and by now he has had a lot of time to find a suitable new weapon.

Then again, the DS has become cursed/enchanted/impregnated and specialized at what it does: killing apostles and specters. So Aolsier might want it back for it's new capabilities... or even for just the heck of it. He might offer a trade, or even challenge Guts for it.

If such a confrontation between DS-Guts and NewWeapon-Aolsier ever happened, one thing is certain...

The man with the biggest sword will win  :troll:
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Trashcan on February 05, 2007, 05:52:55 AM
I may be going by a bad translation here, but didn't Zodd tell Guts during their first battle that "no man has evaded my sword this long in fifty years" ? Could he have fought with a young Aolsier? I'll admit, it seems doubtful; Zodd isn't the sort to let any opponent leave the battlefield without a compelling reason. Perhaps Aolsier also carried a Beherit (an ordinary one), and Zodd decided to leave him to his destiny since his fights with apostles weren't satisfying.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Forest Wraith on February 05, 2007, 06:01:36 AM
Before the Berserk's armor I'd have said no, but now... Maybe.

Good question, but what purpose did that serve then? I don't think he only planned to kill a single "dragon" (apostle?). I'm curious as to what happened to him afterwards. SK seems to know of his existence, so the more I think of it the more I'm believing he'll show up in Elfhelm. Training Guts with the DS so he can take up the God Hand.

Actually, why not. We've never seen or heard anything about Guts' father, and Guts' strength is incredible, beyond that of humans. If Aolsier is really the king of Elfhelm then that would make Guts an elfman, a theory that was pretty popular back in 2001.

The more we discuss this, the more I think it makes sense. I think we're on to something here.

Hmm, but who? Maybe he's lying in wait for something to happen? You're not thinking of Ganishka, are you? Maybe he would have ordered the DS created to fight against Griffith?

But do you remember Puck's strange reaction when the king of Elfhelm was mentioned? He stayed silent when Isidro and Ivalera teased him... It was very strange, I think he knows something he's not saying. Maybe he doesn't want Guts to discover the truth for some reason.

Hmm . . . Maybe that's it? Maybe one of the biggest reasons Puck has been following Guts around through thick and thin is because he actually knows that Guts is Aolsier's son? Maybe he even picked up on it right when, or not long after they first met and he immediatly knew Guts had to be his son because Elfmen are so rare?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Ben on February 05, 2007, 06:23:44 AM
Not to take this too far into the realm of unjustified speculation, but if Aolsier did have a desire to fight apostles, and was successful with the DS (slaying a "dragon"), wouldn't it already have had the qualities that it supposedly became endowed with after Guts used it to slay so many apostles and lesser creatures?  Of course, this would make some sense, at least in explaining why Guts had so much success with it early on, as I don't think (and I'm probably wrong) that Black Swordsman era Guts was THAT much superior in ability to Guts when he fought Wyald, for instance.  Now, the DS is far superior in size and construction to Guts previous sword, and Guts mentality had changed, I know, but I think it's a question worth considering.  I mean, at the very least, if Aolsier HAD slain apostles with it, why would he want it back for "new qualities" that it already had, albeit in lesser degree?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: fuxberg on February 05, 2007, 01:31:14 PM
Cant you see ? Aolsier is Zodd!  :troll: :troll:

Sorry i had to
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Judo on February 05, 2007, 02:08:53 PM
We've never seen or heard anything about Guts' father, and Guts' strength is incredible, beyond that of humans. If Aolsier is really the king of Elfhelm then that would make Guts an elfman.

it totally makes sense if we assume that grunbeld knew of guts' family tree or somehow felt his aura that's like aolsiers and then challanged him directly not out of pride but for revenge, sinde guts' father killed his mother.
it's a family-thing...
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: bastard_swordsman on February 05, 2007, 03:56:11 PM
The speculation here is so thick you can cut it with a sword...
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 06, 2007, 01:04:36 AM
Cant you see ? Aolsier is Zodd!  :troll: :troll:

Sorry i had to

I wanted to say the same thing, but decided not to.
 :guts:

@Judo: or maybe he just recognized the DS?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Forest Wraith on February 06, 2007, 02:07:59 AM
Didn't Grunbeld take note of how unusual The Dragon Slayer was though? I remember that he was impressed by it's strength. As though he had never encountered it before.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Omega Tom Hanks on February 11, 2007, 04:38:46 AM
Im sorry I seem to be completely lost, what volumes does he appear in???
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Tzur on February 11, 2007, 06:30:11 AM
Im sorry I seem to be completely lost, what volumes does he appear in???
As Aaz explained, Miura had several pages removed from episode 93.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Forest Wraith on February 11, 2007, 07:47:42 AM
On the idea of King Aolsier and King Hanafubuku being the same person: I'm wondering which came first, if Hanafubuku/Aolsier was a Human King of Tudor who became a Demi-Human of some form, why would he trade being a Demi-Human King of Tudor for being a Demi-Human king of Elflhelm? Wouldn't it be more in keeping with his nature to remain amongst his own kind? It also doesn't make sense as I'm willing to bet that The King of Elfhelm is much older then that. What was he doing in Midland in first place though? Did he get bored? Maybe he was on a Crusade?

 :troll:

  One thing that's really odd about this scenario is that King Aolsier/Hanafubuku had Godo imprisoned for creating the Dragon Slayer . . . That doesn't seem in keeping with anything that we know about Elves and what they are supposed to represent in the Berserk World. I'm wondering if maybe King Hanafubuku was forced to imprison Godo to save face but deliberately made it easy for him to escape from his Dungeon?
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Aazealh on February 11, 2007, 10:02:11 AM
Ok, the thread has run its course, now it's time for closure.
Title: Re: Supreme King Aolsier: Previous DS owner
Post by: Walter on February 12, 2007, 06:20:28 AM
(http://skullknight.net/images/aolsier4.jpg)
A scan of the missing episode, prior to when Aolsier got the DS. Pretty cool, eh?  :badbone:
This was supposed to have occurred around the same place as the Battle of Doldrey!