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Berserk => Character Cove => Topic started by: Walter on February 11, 2007, 12:55:36 AM

Title: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Walter on February 11, 2007, 12:55:36 AM
I'd like to give Serpico (the user) a chance to rebuttal against all the allegations made in the 282 thread. So here's the gist of what has been said already.

Well, despite that fact he is actually a more skilled fighter than most every legendary hero in the Berserk universe I am definitely not saying he would or even could win. I think the reasons I want to see them spar are obvious though. Their styles match; appear before the enemy swiftly and behead him in a clean stroke by the time he sets eyes on you. Serpico's human ability is superior to Griffith's, and Silat's. With his control of the wind growing as well and his speed with it, I don't think its any strech to say he could cross blades with Griffith longer than anyone other than Guts or some of the stronger apostles. I also see Serpico as the most likely character to be completely impervious to Griffiths charms. Even if it means he must die, I want to see that fight happen.
I'm not getting into this again. I really think your username and obcession with Serpico just maybe, now bear with me, MAAAAAY BE clouding your objective judgement here.

How do you know he's more skilled than "most every legendary hero"? Did you see him fight with Locus, Grunbeld, Gaiseric, Azan, AOLSIER, Zodd, Griffith or Skull Knight? No? Well, add onto that that Serpico uses a rapier, Griffith uses a sabre. So... what do they have in common again? Oh yeah, they both kill people fast. Just like Guts then, yeah?  :guts:

Future comments on this subject should be addressed in a new thread. You can even quote what was said here so you don't have to start from scratch. I just don't want these hypothetical VS concepts crapping up the new episodes thread.

Aaz I already answered Walter in a note since he asked not to continue the discussion here. I will cite them to you as well in a note if you like. Can't exactly agree my next statement is "ridiculously biased and unfounded" since I have seen Griffith, Silat, and Serpico each fight Guts multiple times. Its pretty well founded.

Whoops, Serpico debate in full swing! Who needs a new thread, wasn't Serpico in this episode? Well, Griffith was, and he's only Serpico 1.0, the inferior prototype. Miura's practice project for the TRUE overlord; by showing us that loser Griff's shortcomings, he reveals to us the greatness of Serpico! =)

Anyway, I'll concede Serpico being the most skilled fighter ever of all time, why he could cross blades with  the "untouchable" one as long as anybody (which might just be a tie for 0.0 seconds), if you can explain why he's likely the most "completely impervious" to Griff's supernatural charms? I mean, Guts seemed pretty resistant before, with good reason, and Schierke knows the score too, so far Skull Knight hasn't bowed down either. I just don't see how Serp is a more qualified candidate to resist, especially since he already knows Griffith by his fame and expressed admiration. I mean, I guess what you're basically saying is he's above God on Earth, right? Bigger than Jesus? Yeah, sounds like a fair and balanced assessment of his character to me, especially when he can avoid being hit by Makara snot.

Anyway, I'd really like to hear what facts I, Aaz, and Wally don't know that demonstrate that Serpico is definitively better than Griffith or Silat was. Considering that Griffith defeated Guts outright once and managed to severe Zodd's arm, and Silat has tangled with Guts twice on an even playing field, and his talents are more versatile if not more skillful (how would Serpico deal with his projectiles for example?). Oh yeah, and Silat can catch arrows out of mid-air, but I guess that's talent, not skill, right? =)

Basically, there's no facts that definitively prove anything here. But personally, I'd rate regular old Griffith ahead of Silat and Serpico, because he managed to do something to Zodd only Skull Knight has duplicated, his only defeats came at the hands of Zodd and Guts, and because of his overall demonstrated formidability (I think people tend to forget this and remember how things ended for him). As for Serpico to Silat, I certainly don't think one could say Serpico is measurably better with any authority, especially since it's hard to directly compare them. And honestly, I think that's because Serpico is somewhat physically overmatched, as he is with Guts.
(http://www.skullknight.net/griffith/SerpicoASSBAD.jpg)

The Ultimate Badass.

(http://skullknight.net/images/serpicoAWESUM.jpg)
LEGENDARY HERO!

VS

(http://skullknight.net/images/serpicoAWESUM2.jpg)
BLBLARGLHE!!

Here are some PMs Serpico has sent me regarding this topic:
Quote from: Serpico
Currently I am interested to see Griffiths abilities like everyone else in the thread, the Serpico vs Griffith thing was just a repricussion from the possibilities of what Griffith does next vs Ganishka. Maybe only I care if it is viable on this board but I know plenty of Berserk fans personally who are interested in that too.

I dont want to do an entire thread but to answer your question quickly Serpico fared better against an even stronger Guts than Casca, Griffith, Silat, Boscogne, Boscogne's brother (forgot his name) and even Azan which you mentioned. Serpico brought down Guts effortlessly when Azan failed in the same battle. Its not hard to speculate there are probably a hundred other like Azan who Serpico is more skilled than; taking into account the addition of his magic there is really no question he is on a higher level (He deflected Ganishka attacks!). The others you mentioned are apostles so who knows but I'm pretty sure Grunbeld can defeat Serpico even in human form if you wanna know. What he and Griffith have in common is speed, prescision, ruthlessness, size, and a wonderfull evil eye. We both know it is more than just the fact that they kill people fast.

Quote from: Serpico
Ahhh, well, I think Guts, Grunbeld, Zodd, Locus, Skullknight, Schierke, Flora, the elf King, Ganishka, Griffith, the Godhand, and probably most of the apostles, maybe 80% or so, are above Serpico (Even some human guys like that Rhino General Guts fought). Maybe it comes across otherwise. I like that people do die in Berserk, and I like the tension it creates. The thing is Serpico vs an apostle or Griffith would be exciting because of how vulnerable he is by comparison. I would like to see him struggle just like I like to see Guts struggle. I am never tense Guts will die though for obvious reasons. I'm not implying I would like to see it cause he would win. I want to see it cause if cool.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Ben on February 11, 2007, 02:34:51 AM
I'm willing to bet Boscone could beat Serpico. :troll:
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 11, 2007, 02:47:02 AM
I'd like to give Serpico (the user) a chance to rebuttal against all the allegations made in the 282 thread. So here's the gist of what has been said already.

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Since so many people want to chime in I might make a comprehensive thread later. I have a bit of a headache right now.

Rather than point by point rebuttles I will just explain myself a little more reasonably.

One thing I would like to point out, by "legendary hero" for one, I did not mean he is as strong as Guts, Grunbeld, or Zodd. There is a lot of these "legendary" guys in berserk, for instance, the big guy Bazuso which Guts killed when Griffith first took note of Guts, who had supposedly killed 30 men. Then their is Azan the legendary bridge knight I think who held off 10 men. Even Casca was somewhat legendary. I am going out on a limb saying Serpico could beat these people, and that their are more like them. Even Guts himself who has killed many legendary people notes that Serpico is exceptional so I find it a plausible theory. That is where I came up with the statement "despite that fact he is actually a more skilled fighter than most every legendary hero in the Berserk universe". "Many" may have been a better choice than "most" though since their is so much unknown.

I think Grunbeld and The Rhino General are stronger than Serpico. After that I generally lump human Griffith, Locus, Irvine, Silat, Serpico, and the Tapasa together as the next best human fighters. As such I like to consider Vs for Serpico out of this pool. He is defintely not above a god-hand however I just don't think Griffith would attack Serpico with the same power he displayed against Zodd. Just as he killed Ganishka's guards with his sword, I think he would fight Serpico in that manner. This is pretty much what I was getting at.

In response to WHY I think Serpico is impervious to Griffith, its fairly simple; he cares about Farnese above all else, and I don't think even Griffith can take that spot. Nothing magical.

On some points I will concede. Silat's attacks may work better on Serpico than they did on Guts. Also Silat has no doubt trained and battled a great deal since Guts humiliated him. I like him quite a bit so I am not that biased. I said Serpico was better because Silat was beaten without a weapon. I know Guts didn't have a weapon on the cliff vs Serpico, but he did try to use bombs and Serpico was hardly beaten, that was actually a close call for Guts too.

Thinking about it a little more, I think Griffith and Serpico are too close to tell discounting Serpico using any devious tactics. Serpico did actually cut Guts when it was just sword to sword out in the open, but it was a sneak attack unlike Griffiths attempt.

I am going to maintain that I want to see them fight, and think it could be a good show. As I said in my PM to Walter, Its the fact Serpico can die that makes it interesting to me. He is obviously not the strongest player on the field, but I do like his cunning and bravery. He even stands upto Guts.

And about the Makara, those things gave Guts a bit of hell too.

I'm willing to bet Boscone could beat Serpico. :troll:

I agree, I actually mixed the names up. I meant Adon actually, and Samson. Boscone probably could have beaten Griffith as well.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Walter on February 11, 2007, 03:03:51 AM
I don't have anything against the guy, I like Serpico a lot. But you're really putting him in the wrong place by pitting him against the most powerful creatures in the Berserk universe. That's not his role - nor his place.

What situation would present itself where Serpico would duel with Griffith? It's the realm of pure fanfiction.

Also, you claim he's stronger than Azan purely because of his tactic of throwing a stick at an extremely wounded Guts? Come on... this is really flimsy reasoning, as are the rest of your Serpico-is-stronger-than-EVERYONE-Guts-has-fought-because-he's-still-alive theories. Here's an example of why it's absurd, straight from Miura:

(http://skullknight.net/images/puckultimatestrongone.jpg)
ULTIMATE STRONG ONE!
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 11, 2007, 03:17:38 AM
I don't have anything against the guy, I like Serpico a lot. But you're really putting him in the wrong place by pitting him against the most powerful creatures in the Berserk universe. That's not his role - nor his place.

Also, you claim he's stronger than Azan purely because of his tactic of throwing a stick at an extremely wounded Guts? Come on... this is really flimsy reasoning, as are the rest of your Serpico-is-stronger-than-EVERYONE-Guts-has-fought-because-he's-still-alive theories. Here's an example of why it's absurd, straight from Miura:


Cunning matters in battle though as much as talent with a weapon. Azan had the same opportunity to see Guts weak spot. Serpico saw it and exploited it immediately. I can't really see Azan being able to handle Serpico as Guts is able to, which could easily mean death with a single slip up.

Quote
What situation would present itself where Serpico would duel with Griffith? It's the realm of pure fanfiction.

As far as the scenario where they fight, here is one possible that I think may happen. Zodd seems dead set on not allowing Guts to fight Griffith without going through him. In a situation where Guts and Skullknight are busy fighting Zodd and Grunbeld, what if Griffith approaches Casca who is likely right beside Farnese? I can definitely see Serpico blocking his path.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: CnC on February 11, 2007, 03:58:53 AM
don't forget:
(http://www.mattbrowning.com/berserk/serpico_explode.gif)
 :troll:
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Scorpio on February 11, 2007, 08:16:37 AM
This is all speculation.  But it may not be unreasonable that Serpico could have a fighting chance against Silat.  From what we've seen, several of Silat's weapons can be fended off by strong air currents (From a swing of the DS when he fought Guts), and that would be Serpico's specialty. Serpico also has the benefits of his cloak, which improve his general agility and hide such suprises as what I guess is temporary flight.

That said, I dont think he has a prayer against most apostles, and while he may have had a chance against the pre-eclipse Griffith due to his magical items, Im fairly confident that Griffith reborn is FAR out of his league. The only things he's really killed effectively so far are trolls, croc familiars and to an extent, Daka.  Things that Guts goes through like he was picking daisies (if he could could pick 5 at a time).

Sorry Serpico (the user), but I dont think its feasible to think that he could do the things you claim.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 11, 2007, 08:55:15 AM
I'd like to point out a few things.

First, Serpico (the character) is used to one-on-one duels, not fighting many opponents at once. As long as he only has one enemy in front of him, he is definitely to be feared.

Second, until Serpico actually starts flying around and cutting through buildings, I don't think that his skill with the wind elemental gear is a decent argument. It definitely gives him an edge against Daka and Familiars, but as far as the stronger apostles and the God Hand, I don't think it would make a noticable difference.

Third, the reason that Serpico has faired so well against Guts in the past is purely because of where they fought. Guts couldn't use the DS when they fought on the cliff in volume 18/19 (forget which), and Guts had to cut through pillars - slowing his attacks - when they fought in volume 30/31 (again, forget which). Guts, with unrestricted use of the DS, would tear through Serpico just like any other member of HICKS. (though, with the wind elemental cloak, might be a little different now...)


As for Serpico beating Silat, I think it's likely that Serpico could win, assuming that Silat isn't too much stronger than when he fought Guts.
Serpico could probably have beaten human Griffith in a 1-on-1 duel as well, Serpico's pretty damn amazing 1-on-1.
Serpico vs Casca, Casca wouldn't stand a chance.
Basically anyone who Guts beat pre-eclipse, Serpico could take out, with the possible exception of Silat and some of the other Bakiraka, and Wyald might've been a problem too.
I don't think he'd last long against most of the "greater" apostles (Locus, Rakshas, Zodd, Grunbeld, Irvine, etc), and Guts would probably last much longer against a God Hand than he would, despite the pain from his brand.



As far as the scenario where they fight, here is one possible that I think may happen. Zodd seems dead set on not allowing Guts to fight Griffith without going through him. In a situation where Guts and Skullknight are busy fighting Zodd and Grunbeld, what if Griffith approaches Casca who is likely right beside Farnese? I can definitely see Serpico blocking his path.
Griffith won't hurt Casca, remember how he saved her at the hill of swords?
Guts and Casca's baby [which is still living inside him, or something like that] likely won't let him.
Aside from that, and the fact that Griffith would likely sit back and watch instead of going after a harmless woman he has no interest in, it seems plausible.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: pippin22 on February 11, 2007, 02:27:58 PM
Forget all of this... Serpico VS Griffith?  The real question is: Could Serpico take Isidro?
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Ben on February 11, 2007, 06:18:34 PM
Now THAT is a debate, because Isidro is clearly the greatest tactician in the series (after all, he uses cunning to throw things from a distance!), and as we have seen with Luca's girls, he can only be distracted by women MOMENTARILY, unlike Serpico.  Clearly, Isidro is superior, as he slays more trolls in volume 26 than Serpico, AND he snipes far more possessed occultists with rocks during the time when Griffith is being reincarnated.  Consider, we've never seen Isidro entirely defeated in the series, unlike Serpico, who clearly lost to Guts, and Isidro did pretty damned well with that pirate.  In short, Isidro is the ultimate strong one.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 11, 2007, 10:00:31 PM
Now THAT is a debate, because Isidro is clearly the greatest tactician in the series (after all, he uses cunning to throw things from a distance!), and as we have seen with Luca's girls, he can only be distracted by women MOMENTARILY, unlike Serpico.  Clearly, Isidro is superior, as he slays more trolls in volume 26 than Serpico, AND he snipes far more possessed occultists with rocks during the time when Griffith is being reincarnated.  Consider, we've never seen Isidro entirely defeated in the series, unlike Serpico, who clearly lost to Guts, and Isidro did pretty damned well with that pirate.  In short, Isidro is the ultimate strong one.

That is not even close to accurate. Guts beat him with a stick, Schierke also defeated him several times. As far as throwing things Serpico has brought down Isidro and Guts with nothing more than a twig.

(http://www.ninetenths.org/ishi.jpg)

(http://www.ninetenths.org/guts.jpg)

Forget all of this... Serpico VS Griffith? The real question is: Could Serpico take Isidro?

Isidro surrendered to Serpico without a fight.

The only things he's really killed effectively so far are trolls, croc familiars and to an extent, Daka. Things that Guts goes through like he was picking daisies (if he could could pick 5 at a time).

Sorry Serpico (the user), but I dont think its feasible to think that he could do the things you claim.

I'd like to point out a few things.

First, Serpico (the character) is used to one-on-one duels, not fighting many opponents at once. As long as he only has one enemy in front of him, he is definitely to be feared.

Serpico is too be feared no matter the numbers. And he does not need his wind gear.
(http://www.ninetenths.org/serpico.jpg)


Guts, with unrestricted use of the DS, would tear through Serpico just like any other member of HICKS. (though, with the wind elemental cloak, might be a little different now...)


Doesn't need the cloak, and he can dodge the unrestricted DS and has proven it.

(http://www.ninetenths.org/dodge.jpg)
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 12, 2007, 03:17:44 AM
Serpico is too be feared no matter the numbers. And he does not need his wind gear.
http://www.ninetenths.org/serpico.jpg
Yeah, he's better than a group of common Kushan soldiers. We're talking about powerful warriors and apostles, though, aren't we?


Doesn't need the cloak, and he can dodge the unrestricted DS and has proven it.

http://www.ninetenths.org/dodge.jpg
He also nearly lost his foot, without which he probably wouldn't even be able to continue (though they quit after that, anyway).
Guts was also caught with his back turned, which is probably the reason that Serpico managed to draw blood on his first swing.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: CnC on February 12, 2007, 04:06:03 AM
It's entertaining to watch your fervor for Serpico's abilities, however lets face it: Serpico is never going to be as narratively important as Guts or Griffith.  One can argue hypotheticals all they want but that won't change what has been written already.  Serpico is a second tier supporting character at best.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Ben on February 12, 2007, 04:11:43 AM
Isidro surrendered to Serpico because he knew Serpico stood no chance, not wanting to kill him and our boy Isi just doesn't deal with things that way, you know?  Again, displaying more tact than Serpico.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 05:26:00 AM
It's entertaining to watch your fervor for Serpico's abilities, however lets face it: Serpico is never going to be as narratively important as Guts or Griffith.  One can argue hypotheticals all they want but that won't change what has been written already.  Serpico is a second tier supporting character at best.

It's also amusing to me how you are telling me to "face it" to something I never said or implied otherwise, lol. My thinking it would be cool and possible for him to fight Griffith has nothing to do with me considering him the main character.

While I am at it I'll try to face that the earth is round or some other things I've known and believed most of my life.  :carcus:

Serpico is indeed a supporting character but as far as this line... "Serpico is a second tier supporting character at best." At best? really? He is only in more of the manga than any character besides the main three, and Miura saw fit to cover his backstory in depth starting from childhood. Seems like you're the one who would like to change what has been written. As you said though, you can't.

Isidro surrendered to Serpico because he knew Serpico stood no chance, not wanting to kill him and our boy Isi just doesn't deal with things that way, you know? Again, displaying more tact than Serpico.

Ok, I will admit it, Isidro is the strongest character in Berserk.

Yeah, he's better than a group of common Kushan soldiers. We're talking about powerful warriors and apostles, though, aren't we?


You were saying how he can only fight one opponent at a time, and that his wind gear is what gave him the ability. I agree with you completely he could not handle more than one apostle, and even then its an uphill battle for him.


He also nearly lost his foot, without which he probably wouldn't even be able to continue (though they quit after that, anyway).
Guts was also caught with his back turned, which is probably the reason that Serpico managed to draw blood on his first swing.

Nearly doesn't count for anything though, if it did then Guts would have died in volume 1. The fact he dodged a blow from Guts from close range means he would not get "torn through like any other memeber of the HICKS".

Scratching Guts is impressive but god knows plenty have done it if you check out his scars so its not a huge deal. Scratching him and living to tell about it is another matter though.

 



Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Walter on February 12, 2007, 06:14:51 AM
Serpico, I don't think many people would argue that they outright WOULDN'T want to see Griffith and Serpico hypothetically fight. I think most of the aggression you're encountering here is a direct result of the phrasing you used in one of your original posts - that Serpico is more powerful than "most every legendary hero in the Berserk universe."  Surely you realize this is a pretty controversial statement.

But who did you have in mind for these "legendary heroes?" You later excluded "80% of the apostles" (even though he's clearly not faring well against an anonymous one in a picture shown above), Boscone, Griffith ... even out of left field, FLORA!
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 06:54:27 AM
Serpico, I don't think many people would argue that they outright WOULDN'T want to see Griffith and Serpico hypothetically fight. I think most of the aggression you're encountering here is a direct result of the phrasing you used in one of your original posts - that Serpico is more powerful than "most every legendary hero in the Berserk universe."  Surely you realize this is a pretty controversial statement.

But who did you have in mind for these "legendary heroes?" You later excluded "80% of the apostles" (even though he's clearly not faring well against an anonymous one in a picture shown above), Boscone, Griffith ... even out of left field, FLORA!

True, my statement was poorly thought out. I really meant humans, and the apostles are a little ify in my opinion whether it was before or after they used beherits that they gained fame. Grunberd though, I will concede pretty easily that his human form is more than Serpico can handle. Probably we can all agree though that most "legendary heroes" are nowhere near as good as the apostles, and particularly those apostles, at least I hope we can.

Serpico was actually doing ok against that apostle you showed. I mean he did chop its nose off and was thus far unharmed, and it was a transformed apostle. Guts did about a thousand times better for sure though.

Flora is way better than Serpico and I'd never say otherwise  :beast: I tried to cover all the angles for clarification. I left off the Makara and Daiba though.

Its not absolutely proveable but I would say Serpico is better than Bazuso, Adon, Samson, Casca, Azan, Silat and the like. I'm assuming there is more of similair ability to them. This is without magic. With magic I think he could beat some weaker apostles and magical beast, and stand at least a little chance against some tougher ones.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Walter on February 12, 2007, 07:18:10 AM
You're basing Serpico's relative strength (that he's stronger than Bazuso, Adon, Samson, Casca, Azan etc) solely on the fact that he's fought Guts twice and lived, a feat many others have failed. And really, that's a pretty weak crutch to stand on. I think we've been overlooking a key element to his survival here. Let's look at the scenarios Guts and Serpico have fought in and why Serpico was ALLOWED to live  :guts:

Duel 1, Vol 19: Serpico corners Guts on the cliffs of Albion, and even with all the advantages he had, still fails to get the best of Guts. In the end, he manages to scurry away like a rodent only because Guts has better things to do, such as look for Casca.

Duel 2, Vol 30: Serpico forces a duel with Guts in Vritannis, and even with the pillars to his advantage, and Guts severely hindered by his battered body, manages to survive because Guts still needs him in the band.

These are two distinct advantages the vast majority of Guts' opponents never had.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 12, 2007, 08:16:52 AM
You were saying how he can only fight one opponent at a time, and that his wind gear is what gave him the ability. I agree with you completely he could not handle more than one apostle, and even then its an uphill battle for him.
Actually, I said he is to be feared in a 1-on-1 battle, because that is what he is used to (dueling with nobles) Remember, the HICKS rarely saw combat, so there is no reason to believe he had ever seen combat against a group of enemies before meeting Guts.

Nearly doesn't count for anything though, if it did then Guts would have died in volume 1. The fact he dodged a blow from Guts from close range means he would not get "torn through like any other memeber of the HICKS".
What I said may've been a little strong, but you know that he wouldn't have been able to block or parry the attack, he dodged it because he had to [with the wind equipment, it would be another story, and that is what I meant]. If Guts had swung two feet higher, "Serpico" would've just been another name on Guts' kill roster.

Scratching Guts is impressive but god knows plenty have done it if you check out his scars so its not a huge deal. Scratching him and living to tell about it is another matter though.
Nothing to say there. The fact that Serpico lived shows that he's not as bad as your average soldier.



Duel 1, Vol 19: Serpico corners Guts on the cliffs of Albion, and even with all the advantages he had, still fails to get the best of Guts. In the end, he manages to scurry away like a rodent only because Guts has better things to do, such as look for Casca.

Duel 2, Vol 30: Serpico forces a duel with Guts in Vritannis, and even with the pillars to his advantage, and Guts severely hindered by his battered body, manages to survive because Guts still needs him in the band.
First, Serpico escaped quite tactfully. I wouldn't say it's the bravest thing I've ever seen in a manga, but I think that calling it "scurry away like a rodent" is a bit strong.
Second, Guts probably wouldn't have (intentionally) killed Serpico in the second duel anyway, he has no reason to.

I think that basically anyone Guts killed while he was with the Hawks would be helpless in a duel against Serpico. A battle and a duel are pretty damn different, though.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 08:41:51 AM
You're basing Serpico's relative strength (that he's stronger than Bazuso, Adon, Samson, Casca, Azan etc) solely on the fact that he's fought Guts twice and lived, a feat many others have failed. And really, that's a pretty weak crutch to stand on. I think we've been overlooking a key element to his survival here. Let's look at the scenarios Guts and Serpico have fought in and why Serpico was ALLOWED to live  :guts:

On the cliff, Serpico did escape on his own. When Serpico did scratch Guts at their first encounter and in the formal duel, he was "allowed" to live as you say though. I agree Guts could have killed him either of those two times if he persued it. Serpico did survive some attempts by Guts to kill him though, and based on skills he displayed VS Guts (and others) I would say he could defeat those others. I am really basing it on that. Guts has some pretty amazing counters to Serpico's moves. I just can't see Azan for instance pulling things off like catching Serpico's sword barehanded, or instinctively outwitting Serpico while in battle. Even in wits Serpico throws Guts off guard on occasion, but Guts is just too much for him.

Aside from Guts Serpico handled the Tigers, daka, kushan, nobles, trolls, and spellcasters in an impressive manner. He has actually damaged a couple apostles without getting harmed even though he didn't get to finish the job, which I will grant he may or may not have been able to. I think we are going to find out eventually.

Even just paying attention to the manga; Guts, Schierke, Daiba, and Ganishka have all noted Serpico, in terms of raw ability, wits, and magical talent. This is not as amazing as recognition from say, Zodd or Skullknight, but its still a good resume that relatively few could match.

Actually, I said he is to be feared in a 1-on-1 battle, because that is what he is used to (dueling with nobles) Remember, the HICKS rarely saw combat, so there is no reason to believe he had ever seen combat against a group of enemies before meeting Guts.
What I said may've been a little strong, but you know that he wouldn't have been able to block or parry the attack, he dodged it because he had to [with the wind equipment, it would be another story, and that is what I meant]. If Guts had swung two feet higher, "Serpico" would've just been another name on Guts' kill roster.
Nothing to say there. The fact that Serpico lived shows that he's not as bad as your average soldier.

Well on your first point, I will just agree that is he to be feared 1 on 1 and that was what he is used to, and probably where he is at his best. Since then he has shown he can handle quite a few at a time though. He killed those 3 literally in a split second, and that was after staying up the entire night fighting ghosts.

If Guts had swung 2 feet higher Serpico may have ducked instead. Aside from dodges he did show an ability to "surf" the DS, so he is fairly inventive, and seems to know what will and will not work. I don't think he is under any delusion he can parry Guts attacks, the mistake which was Griffiths downfall.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: CnC on February 12, 2007, 12:29:48 PM
Serpico is indeed a supporting character but as far as this line... "Serpico is a second tier supporting character at best." At best? really? He is only in more of the manga than any character besides the main three, and Miura saw fit to cover his backstory in depth starting from childhood. Seems like you're the one who would like to change what has been written. As you said though, you can't.

Thats right.  Whats been written, backstory or no backstory is that Serpico is not pivotal, to the overall story.  If he were to get killed in your hypothetical fight with Griffith or perhaps sacrifice himself for Farnese, it would be sad but the story would easily move on.  He is a second tier supporting character (I'd place him below Puck), he's not going to drive the plot any time soon.   Its best you realize that and quit bitching about how I worded the obvious.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: MarcusWC on February 12, 2007, 02:38:14 PM
I hope to see more of Serpico in the manga from now on lol. Because I am kinda o n the fence on this one.  Well it's not luike you guys are saying ENTIERLY different things but... BLah
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 05:07:30 PM
Thats right.  Whats been written, backstory or no backstory is that Serpico is not pivotal, to the overall story.  If he were to get killed in your hypothetical fight with Griffith or perhaps sacrifice himself for Farnese, it would be sad but the story would easily move on.  He is a second tier supporting character (I'd place him below Puck), he's not going to drive the plot any time soon.   Its best you realize that and quit bitching about how I worded the obvious.

Bitching, no. Pointing you your lack of reading comprehension yes.

Not Pivotal?
Guess I missed the part where he deflected an attack that could have could have killed Guts, among about a dozen other things. Farnese would also be dead. Guts would be alone with Casca still...  yeah you're right, he had no effect on the manga at all. An imaginary man just saved Guts from dying in a fight with Zodd that Guts WOULD have lost.

Not driving the plot?
Where did I ever claim Serpico to drive the "main plot". He does drive the subplots and contributes to the main plot. It's best you try reading the manga as well as my post again with your glasses on this time.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Locus of Agony on February 12, 2007, 06:21:49 PM
It's rather hard to say this character could be that character, based simply on past performance. Could Boscone, Adon, or Samson have beaten Griffith? Maybe, but as they didn't actually fight, we simply will never know.

And a single character's skill, talent, or ability, does NOT determine the outcome of a battle. Chance, circumstance, dumb luck (and of course causality :void:) usually determine the outcome of most pivitol battles in Berserk.

When Guts confronted Griffith before leaving the Hawks, who's to say Griffith lost merely because Guts "had better skill" It was primarily Griffith's arrogance that cost him the fight. He underestimated Guts based soley on how they had fought in the past.

Is Serpico stronger, more skilled, better than Guts? Miura doesn't seem to think so. Could Serpico beat Guts in fight? Why not? Just because he defeats him doesn't make Serpico a better fighter, it simply means the variables (and maybe causality :void:) where in his favor.

Or at least that's how I see it. :serpico:
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 07:52:17 PM
@Locus

I agree with you there. I think this line should be reversed though.

And a single character's skill, talent, or ability, does NOT determine the outcome of a battle. Chance, circumstance, dumb luck (and of course causality :void:) usually determine the outcome of most pivitol battles in Berserk.

Skill usually determines the outcome over luck. Even when there is some luck, skill usually plays the most part. Guts survived his first battle with Zodd just as much by his own skill and power as he did by luck. Without his skill he would have died; without his luck he probably would have died.

As far as anything being possible, you're right... Adon defeated Guts and Casca at the same time due to their terrible fortune that she was PMSing next to a cliff. That is in part what I am getting at here. What I am saying is Serpico is more than skilled enough that if had a little luck he could potentially beat some apostles. As far as fighting a common or even a great soldier, his skill probably puts him in the top 1% of human fighters thus he will LIKELY win 99% of the time. Certainty in anything is unachievable.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Dirty Dog on February 12, 2007, 07:55:12 PM
Guess I missed the part where he deflected an attack that could have could have killed Guts, among about a dozen other things.
thus how he is "Supporting" :schierke:
Farnese would also be dead. Guts would be alone with Casca still...  yeah you're right, he had no effect on the manga at all.
He's "saved" her a couple of times, but there's no way we can be sure she needed saving.

Quote
his skill probably puts him in the top 1% of human fighters thus he will LIKELY win 99% of the time.
I would agree, if 100% of the fights were against human fighters.


can't really argue with anything else.


Also, I would say that puck isn't as important as he used to be, and that if it weren't for where the group is going, Serpico would probably be more (if not equally) important.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 08:08:05 PM
thus how he is "Supporting" :schierke:

Who said he isn't supporting. I clearly said he was PIVOTAL.  :schierke:
When you save important characters you are pivotal.


thus how he is "Supporting" :schierke:He's "saved" her a couple of times, but there's no way we can be sure she needed saving.

You can't be serious... 

He stopped her from being crushed by a giant chandelier
He stopped Guts from impaling her with a sword
He caught her hand when she fell off a hundred foot tower
He scooped her out of the way of a giant tiger

These are just a few examples. Yes she did NEED saving and if you aren't sure of it then that says a lot about your opinions.

Again, you and CnC both need to try reading the manga.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: CnC on February 12, 2007, 08:39:44 PM
Bitching, no. Pointing you your lack of reading comprehension yes.

Not Pivotal?
Guess I missed the part where he deflected an attack that could have could have killed Guts, among about a dozen other things. Farnese would also be dead. Guts would be alone with Casca still...  yeah you're right, he had no effect on the manga at all. An imaginary man just saved Guts from dying in a fight with Zodd that Guts WOULD have lost.

Could of, would of, DIDN'T.

By your logic, Shisu is far more important a character than Serpico could ever be; and yet I don't see you idolize her with the same fervor.  EDIT: Apparently we need to work on your definition of "pivotal" as well.
Who said he isn't supporting. I clearly said he was PIVOTAL.  :schierke:
When you save important characters you are pivotal.


You can't be serious... 

He stopped her from being crushed by a giant chandelier
He stopped Guts from impaling her with a sword
He caught her hand when she fell off a hundred foot tower
He scooped her out of the way of a giant tiger

These are just a few examples. Yes she did NEED saving and if you aren't sure of it then that says a lot about your opinions.

Again, you and CnC both need to try reading the manga.


Look apon all these examples you've listed and tell me which one has drastically changed the narrative.  Don't feed me "he has saved Guts" BS.  If Guts were killed in these scenarios it really wouldnt be a complete story, would it?

Now I like Serpico as a character.  People have already speculated in the past (the serpico-apostle thread) that he'll have a stronger role in the narrative.  However, as of this point he has done little more than help advance the story rather than be pivotal.

Ultimately, you're not going to convince me (or I would go as far to say anyone) on the outcome of hypothetical battles based on situationally driven events.  I'm afraid that Miura's crafted a bit more complicated of a story rather than your standard Shounen, power level battle based fare.  Bringing up these conversations, even when they're well articulated, are still juvenile.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 08:56:23 PM
Could of, would of, DIDN'T.

By your logic, Shisu is far more important a character than Serpico could ever be; and yet I don't see you idolize her with the same fervor.

Ultimately, you're not going to convince me (or I would go as far to say anyone) on the outcome of hypothetical battles based on situationally driven events.  I'm afraid that Miura's crafted a bit more complicated of a story rather than your standard Shounen, power level battle based fare.  Bringing up these conversations, even when they're well articulated, are still juvenile.


Thanks for all the laughs man. Everything you say gets more rediculous. By my logic Shizu IS more critical than Serpico to the plot. Absolutely. I kinda feel like like Guts dying under a tree as a baby would have hindered the story just a little.  :schierke:
You seem to be implying she isn't here which is quite absurd.

No one has attacked or questioned Shizu so why should I talking about her here exactly. Lots of characters are critical, including both Serpico and Farnese. I agree with you Puk was critical as well as Isidro frankly, but no one is saying they arent, unlike what you have said regarding Serpico.

If you wou read you would know that some other people already do believe Serpico could beat the people I mentioned. Your assumption you know EVERY other fans opinion is also completely absurd. I never said he could certainly beat any apostle or god-hand. I said I'd like to see him fight some.

Actually you have the Shounen power lvl concept. I will openly admit Serpico is less powerfull than an apostle, yet I think he has a chance to win with his cunning. You seem to be convinced he will lose by power levels alone.



Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: CnC on February 12, 2007, 09:04:24 PM
I added a bit to my above post, as there really isn't anything worth replying to in your last post (but thanks for proving my point about you're being juvenile).  cheers.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Locus of Agony on February 12, 2007, 09:05:17 PM
While I'll not even attempt to debate the "pivotalness" (that's bad I know :SK:) of one character over another, I think Serpico, that CnC and Walter's point is mainly this:

We are in the story for Guts, his plight, his vengence, his outcome.
Everything Puck, Farnese, Serpico, Isidro, or Schierke do is to somehow compliment Guts, this being Miura, his supporting cast have more recognition, memorability, in short a life of their own, that does not comply and may even conflict with Guts goals.

Be that as it may, Guts remains central (truly pivotal) while the rest of the cast exists to elevate or aggrivate him.

That's why the question of wither or not Serpico can beat Guts is somewhat superfluous, even he does, we will be more concerned with how that duel effects Guts then Serpico.

As I said before, it's not that Serpico can't beat Guts, or even if he's a better fighter or not (I think their too diseperate to compare but I digress) it's just that Guts is the major player, and as such, Serpico's goal are secondary.

Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: CnC on February 12, 2007, 09:13:40 PM
Be that as it may, Guts remains central (truly pivotal) while the rest of the cast exists to elevate or aggrivate him.

Thats partly what I'm saying.  There are other characters that dramatically alter the direction of the narrative.  Serpico hasn't done that (yet).
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 12, 2007, 09:26:48 PM
I added a bit to my above post, as there really isn't anything worth replying to in your last post (but thanks for proving my point about you're being juvenile).  cheers.

No problem. I'd give up if I was you too.

Could of, would of, DIDN'T.

Look apon all these examples you've listed and tell me which one has drastically changed the narrative. Don't feed me "he has saved Guts" BS. If Guts were killed in these scenarios it really wouldnt be a complete story, would it?


I can feed you a little bit of how Serpico and Farnese has both saved Casca on various occasions if you prefer? Does it change the narrative if she is dead? or if Guts still has to carry her kicking and screaming on one arm while fighting. Guts was frankly on the verge of a breakdown before their arrival. They have DRAMATICALLY changed the tone of the manga. They are deeply intwoven to everything that has happened on Guts end for the last 16 volumes. If you don't see that on your own then there is no convincing you.

You can admit or not Serpico saved Guts, doesn't matter to me. If you want to believe he could have killed Zodd and the other 50 apostles there, or Ganishka's attack would not have killed him then so be it.


Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Skullgrin140 on February 12, 2007, 09:59:11 PM
Serpico's a pretty cool character, he Served Guts several times and It would be interesting to see him fight Griffith, but he's left especially for Guts to kill, so instead Serpico should go up agaisnt Rakshas
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: CnC on February 12, 2007, 10:15:50 PM
I can feed you a little bit of how Serpico and Farnese has both saved Casca on various occasions if you prefer? Does it change the narrative if she is dead?

Oh nice, I see what you did there.  We're going to bring Farnese in as a reason Serpico is a pivotal character?  Clever monkey.
If its your plan to argue every occasion or character that has put the main character in dire straights as pivotal then everything is pivotal.
And thusly, Serpico's contributions are greatly lessened in consequence.  Did I just blow your tiny fuckin' mind?

or if Guts still has to carry her kicking and screaming on one arm while fighting. Guts was frankly on the verge of a breakdown before their arrival. They have DRAMATICALLY changed the tone of the manga. They are deeply intwoven to everything that has happened on Guts end for the last 16 volumes. If you don't see that on your own then there is no convincing you.

Guts DID have a breakdown right before Farnese (and with her, Serpico) showed up again.  The beast is still around and Serpico has had no affect on that front.  Your argument that they are deeply interwoven (the correct spelling, btw) with Guts for 16 volumes doesn't really work as all they've done is advance the story.  Its only since volume 26 that Guts felt that he had comrades again, but even that is not as pivotal as you say.

Honestly, you've found a very drawn-out way of saying "nuh-uh" in most of your posts with very little substance behind it.   Unless you really have anything substantial to add to this debate of what you think "pivotal" means, drop it.  That way you can resume professing your love of all things Serpico and not actually have to attempt elevated conversation (preferably with spell-check).
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: smoke on February 12, 2007, 10:32:40 PM
This thread is fucking amazing. Never before have I read only 2 pages and gotten a headache.

suupah bishi serpico powah cunning swordu attakku!!

Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 13, 2007, 12:10:41 AM
Oh nice, I see what you did there.  We're going to bring Farnese in as a reason Serpico is a pivotal character?  Clever monkey.

If its your plan to argue every occasion or character that has put the main character in dire straights as pivotal then everything is pivotal.
And thusly, Serpico's contributions are greatly lessened in consequence.  Did I just blow your tiny fuckin' mind?


Better than a dimwitted monkey like yourself eh?

You can't put together that Farnese is alive because of Serpico. 2+2 is hard for some I suppose.

I explained Serpico's direct affects on the plot but you can't process them.

You call me juvenile then get riled up to cursing and name calling. LMAO, you're pathetic man, and you prove it at every turn. You're as easy to play as a fiddle. You're right though, my mind is blown at your sheer stupidity.


Honestly, you've found a very drawn-out way of saying "nuh-uh" in most of your posts with very little substance behind it. Unless you really have anything substantial to add to this debate of what you think "pivotal" means, drop it. That way you can resume professing your love of all things Serpico and not actually have to attempt elevated conversation (preferably with spell-check).

The fact it all has to be spelled out for you is nothing to be proud of. Where exactly is your substance there? I used specific examples. The fact that you can't process them is a personal problem on your end. You are the one backing your claims up with nothing.

Do everyone a favor and read the manga, since you obviously haven't  :troll: You look like a real fool.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Ben on February 13, 2007, 12:12:11 AM
This thread is fucking amazing. Never before have I read only 2 pages and gotten a headache.

suupah bishi serpico powah cunning swordu attakku!!



EXACTLY, we need to get it on topic and back to Isidro's apparent and godlike superiority, all proven with my flawless logic.  As I said, he's never actually been beaten in one on one combat, spared Serpico while displaying humility in pretending to submit, and he wouldn't allow his dream to be effected by a woman (a la Farnese).  In short, Isidro is the ultimate strong one, as demonstrated by the flow of logic in this thread.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: SaiyajinNoOuji on February 13, 2007, 12:50:55 AM
At this stage in the game, Serpico would get man handled by any of the Lieutenants/Commanders in Griffith's army. With that, do you honestly believe that Serpico would have a chance against Griffith right now? I think not, for one thing, all we have seen Griffith do is give the eye and all apostles for the most part are his bitches.

With that, his aura makes everyone feel all weak in the knees. We don't even know yet if Griffith has to break his current form to use all of his God Hand powers. If he doesn't he can just crush him with his mind like he did during the eclipse when Skullknight busted in and rescued Guts and Casca. Also even if Griffith did have to break his form it wouldnt take away from the fact that he is a God hand, you know, the power right before "God". I think you are putting him on a a level a little to high then he really is.

Although hey may be a skilled fighter, there is no way he can stand against Griffith/Femto.

Quote
Aaz I already answered Walter in a note since he asked not to continue the discussion here. I will cite them to you as well in a note if you like. Can't exactly agree my next statement is "ridiculously biased and unfounded" since I have seen Griffith, Silat, and Serpico each fight Guts multiple times. Its pretty well founded.

This quote... You say that your responce is well founded but lets look at what its founded from. Its founded from the time that Griffith let his emotions get th ebest of him when dueling the second time with Guts. He went ahead and attacked first and straight ahead instead of keeping calm and parrying like he did the first time. With that it was only one swing.

If you are basing your entire argument when it comes to this quote as well founded, well my man, i think every is right except for you.

You also have to think that Griffith was imprisoned for sometime while Serpico was doing his thing. Then comes the fact that Griffith is now a god in human form.

My point still stands. He would have no chance in hell to win against Griffith, I don't think he would even put up a good fight.
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Serpico on February 13, 2007, 01:03:23 AM
@ Saiya

I stated pretty clearly the entire time Serpico would die in a fight to the death with god-hand Griffith so you are arguing to deaf ears on that point. Just because I want to see them fight doesn't mean I think Serpico can or will win; I've stated this several times.

As far as saying Serpico can beat human Griffith, I also conceded that it would be a toss up on the last page. There is plenty enough to "found" my speculation though. It's based on the skills I have seen from both of them. I don't really care that others have a high opinion of Griffith. It has a solid basis, just as my opinion of Serpico does. Frankly my opinion of Griffith is high as well.


EXACTLY, we need to get it on topic and back to Isidro's apparent and godlike superiority, all proven with my flawless logic.

I conceded to the ultimate power of Isidro on the last page.  :badbone:
Title: Re: Serpico's Superior Skills?
Post by: Walter on February 13, 2007, 02:01:56 AM
Thread locked because it turned into a fucking flame war. Man, you guys are meeeeeeean when pushed. Can't even carry a cordial conversation about a hypothetical fight with FICTIONAL CHARACTERS.

(http://www.noisetosignal.org/images/posts/lost1_locke.jpg)
Locke'd