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Messages - Cronus

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Hey all, I'll respond in this post - but if further discussion needs to happen maybe we should keep it out of the review thread?
Also, this looks like an Aaz post!  :guts:
And didn't do much else...  :void:
Which is fine - they got the main meat of the story in.  It moved fast but was otherwise there.
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Really? Even moreso than the removal of the Griffith/boy soldier scene, Bonfire of Dreams, Queen Assassination, etc? That's surprising to me. Gennon was always a means to an end in the series. He's a vehicle to show how far Griffith will go. But he had some key scenes tangentially related to him, such as when Casca sees Griffith on the morning after. And that, of course, is missing, and missed. But I didn't feel that us  not seeing Griffith up on that balcony with Gennon's arm around him was a truly missed element. Afterall, in this version we get Gennon groping Griffith's thighs. That's something... right?
Bonfire of dreams is the only one I would agree with here - but only in the sense that it would have been a nice addition.  Otherwise, Casca early on in the forest asks Guts what he fights for, and before she leaves he says 'I'll think about what you asked me,' and there are several bits throughout that imply he is going to leave afterward. Ultimately the same point gets across despite the changes to the narrative and how it focuses pretty heavily on the Griffith speech.
Boy soldier scene and the Queen were largely inconsequential overall to me.
The Gennon scene should have had a little more setup prior to the fight I think is all to imply some sort of history, rather than it just coming out right before his death.  And Griffith made it crystal clear that he had been a means to an end anyway.

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As well as any emotional gravity whatsoever that they've failed to instill in the other members of the Falcons. Not to mention the time compression issues they're going to have with so much ground to cover. I think it will be miraculous if the movie comes across as coherent.

I do agree with the the part about the other members during the Eclipse.  Based on how this movie went though, Judeau won't get much, but ironically Carcus will probably get the best lines, animation, etc.  They do have what, another 40 minutes in the third movie?  They may pull it off.

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...You did see the Griffith/Charlotte scene in Movie 2, right? Expect full-on, Ali G-style "I Wanna See It ... Goin In" action for Femto's debut.

Yeah I am expecting this, but I maintain some hope!

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Honestly, if this same studio is going to attempt to animate other sequences in the series, I'd rather not have it at all. Having them animated as a novelty is worth utterly nothing to me. It has to represent the spirit of the series in order to it to matter. And so far this adaptation has merely been going through the motions.

Like I said previously, I think this is the crux for most fans - this is YET ANOTHER adaptation of material we have seen before.  If this were the first time this part of the story was being done, I really think people would give it more of a fair shake.

Et tu, Cronus? Anyway, the trick is to always see the movie first, alas... I guess I'll take this opportunity to engage your points and share some of my counters to these sentiments, sorry to pick on you.

BRING IT!  :daiba:

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I'm going to hold you to this, though context is a little tricky because many of the limitations the filmmakers faced were ones they gave themselves with bad planning/decision-making from the outset. Far different than making the best of limitations imposed on them. That's just doing a bad job, so I don't think it's fair to give it a passing grade based on the fact that they set out to do something that couldn't be that good in the first place. It's like an essay where 20 pages are required to do the subject justice, but they decided to only do 5. That just made it all the more disappointing from the start.

But 20 pages are not required to do it justice in my opinion.  Film/Animation is a totally different ballgame from drawing panels over years of practice and the author's affection in his characters.  I recognize that but by itself, I felt the movie was well done and carried the spirit over.

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By what definition, 51%? I'm not even sure it reached that threshold if you consider everything that was removed, unless we adhere to their criteria of what's important: 100 Man Fight, Doldery, Ball, Duel, Sex and Aftermath. Basically everything not told through action doesn't count, and then there's the stuff removed from within those scenes, some of which was the actual point/emotional payoff of the scene, leaving us watching a lot of motion without action (at least it seemed to me).

The action was definitely the main vehicle for the character development, I agree.  A different take but not done poorly.
Let's go over these and I'll explain my reasoning for said plot points:

100 Man Fight: Important in the movie for different reasons.  Instead of it being focused on Guts discovering his obsession with the sword, it became a catalyst for him leaving; he was tired of being Griffith's slave.  It also served as a basis for Guts/Casca's relationship to happen in the next film.  In the manga when they find him passed out, she wanted him to be alive so she wouldn't feel guilty about abandoning him while she ran; in the film it's complete relief that Guts is alive at all.  I think that is a marked difference.  Also, they even covered how Guts essentially gets into the zone anyway with his final bits of internal monologue so the fight was 'covered' in its most important aspects.

Doldrey: This played out almost entirely the same as the manga, the backstory of Gennon and his lust for Griffith just didn't make sense until his final moments.  Griffith ends the 100 year war, it's a big deal.  Zodd throwing the sword is not critical here AT ALL.  The Boscogne fight was good too, it definitely showed that he was pretty much an even match for Guts.  The flag throw wasn't nearly as bad as I had heard.  A little odd, but I think it shows how resourceful Guts is as a fighter and what sets him apart.  He also ended up using the same terrain advantage Griffith used in his strategy to take the castle (the dust) and thus win the fight.  Similarly, I enjoyed Casca's fight with Adon here.  Three different battles here, all relevant.  This is the best part of the movie.

The Ball: The Hawks come back and they're made nobles.  For pretty much everyone, everything they worked so hard on has come to this.  Guts/Casca chat further about his future and she realizes he is going to leave.  Guts realizes it's the best time to leave because to him, Griffith has actually achieved everything he set out to do.  Guts wants to be his friend and thus his equal.  The dance scenes were new but ultimately the message is conveyed that they have done it.  Guts/Casca have a dance for a little relief, you get to see a normally serious character kind of cut loose a bit.  I see this scene overall as more of a tragedy waiting to happen rather than the political drama it was in the manga.

The Duel: I can't really recall having any problems with the duel.  Other than a bit of missing internal dialogue from the manga, everything else was clear.  Casca's feelings are pretty clear at this point.

Bangfest 2012: Griffith, having lost control of what really got him where he was today, decided he needed to immediately control what was going to get him to his ultimate goal which was Charlotte.  It was more of a hate fuck, trying to prove he was still in control of something.  This scene got more air time because this is literally where the descent starts, and it merits having a bit more attention to it.  The aftermath is done well too.

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They're missing Casca's and Griffith's respective back stories
It's clear Griffith is a commoner who leads a special group.  That's all you really need to know.
Casca's story is missing now that I think about it, so good point there.  But I don't think it is a GLARING OMISSION from the movie.  It might come up in the next movie, though.
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along with Gennon's relationship to Griff
Well, it was touched on  :carcus:
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Casca's relationship to Griff, her's to Guts
Casca is pretty clear early on what she think of Griffith and what she wants.  During the ball scene, her jealousy is distinct.
Her's to Guts is still forming but it is pretty much all there.

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and the Bonfire of Dreams scene, which also contained Guts' true perspective relating to... well shit, one just rolls into the next, do I even need to get into the specifics of the assassination plots and everything else that in many cases were needlessly altered, dumbed down or dumped so we could have some added seconds of Griffith eating Charlotte out (in the words of Tim & Eric, "Good job!")? Anyway, there's a trend there, and I'll just say it doesn't strike me as objectively "good" on its merits as an adaptation to cut virtually all of the unique characterization beyond happy/sad/love/hate.

Those scenes by and large don't matter or don't warrant the time on screen to convey their point.

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Think of how much better this could have been on its own terms. How much more of the source material it could have effectively integrated but didn't, and arbitrarily in many cases. I can imagine it being much, much better without even altering the run times. Despite the the self-imposed limitations they were working under, there's still plenty of obvious fat and wasted time/opportunities.

I disagree.  I think they made choices to broaden the appeal of Berserk to people who had no prior knowledge of it.  Few people go to see a movie where there is a whole lot of political shit talking, and Berserk is marketed as a fantasy war movie.  They conveyed the story in a different way and within different constraints.  I for one am glad because who honestly wants to see every single detail put on the big screen exactly in the same way as Miura did it his books?  I cannot possibly see how they could have added everything people seem to collectively 'want' and not alter the run time significantly.  If I could pick one scene from the manga that I would have liked to see, it would be the bonfire of dreams.  Past that, not much else matters.

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Superior in what sense though? That it would make the rape more comfortable to watch, more palatable? I mean that in the least snotty way possible, obviously it's way over the top to the point of being disgusting and disturbing, but that is the point. I can't think of a more controversial scene in the series, risky too, with the reputation of the entire work hinging on how one takes it. So, while I don't enjoy looking at it any more than you do, that is a testament to its effectiveness, and I don't think lessening that effect would make it superior.

I guess what I mean is - I'd like it to focus more on Guts' reactions to what is happening and his fight to free himself to attempt to save her, and focus on Femto's glare of "I'm a GOD now, bitch!" rather than the total obscenity of Casca being pounded on.
But I think now that I basically am asking them to make the scene less graphic because I think it's already going to be off the charts even compared to the manga.  That was me just thinking out loud and considering how the third movie will be.

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FEEL MY PAIN, CRONUS!

REQUEST DENIED

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"Wow.  In my mind, that's like your first time is getting an ass-pounding in prison."

HAHA!  Don't judge me on posts I made literally 10 years ago here!  I was an angry youth!  :griffnotevil:

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Can we hate on the films for all the things they do poorly that they easily could have done better in the context of a film, let alone a long term project? Can Berserk fans be disappointed that instead of a great, or at least meticulous adaptation, which isn't impossible or unheard of in anime, we have to settle for the best Studio 4C can cram into arbitrary 90 minute chunks, which is highly questionable as it is? Can we be upset that they're sacrificing almost all the meaningful characterization that makes the series special in favor of emphasizing sex, violence, stupidity and reducing Berserk to its basest form? I don't think those beefs amount to nitpicking, over-examination or sour grapes, but fundamental disagreements with the overall purpose and execution of this project. Maybe some of the more forgiving types here that aren't paying much mind to that should try examining it a bit more. That's what we're here for.

Yeah, we can all do that.  I just think it is worth stepping back a minute and asking who this trilogy is for.  I feel if you're a diehard Berserk fan, these movies aren't really for you.
Whatever they do in the films and whatever your opinion of them, they do not affect or change the manga.  And if a person sees these movies and is impatient to know more, as many of us did when the TV series first came out, point them to the manga.

But this is ultimately about the movies themselves, and I feel like I was able to separate it from the manga and give it a fair shake, and I liked it.

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P.S. Big old school staying-up-way-too-late-to-write post for you, Cronus.

I'm honored! :ganishka:

This is a pretty big post, so if people want to talk about it further maybe it should be in PMs - I just want to make sure I'm not threadshitting.

2
If there is one thing I learned a long time ago, especially for a book/comic being adapted to a film, you will always be disappointed.  The best you can do is judge the result on its own merit in its own context.

So on that note, I just watched it.  I voted it as good, a little better than the first one overall.  The production team definitely stuck to what they could do well from the first and expanded it here.  The 100 man battle was great to see, the Doldrey battle was well done to me, and they hit most of the main plot points.

My main gripe really was with Griffith's relationship to Gennon.  I think they tried to sort of pull it all together at the meeting where he is killed, which didn't work at all.  Obviously the manga is better, blah blah blah.  The Casca/Guts going in circles at the ball was also pretty laughable, but I still managed to smile.

Otherwise, if you saw the first one, expect the same brisk pace with the story in general.  I feel they encapsulated key moments from the manga into 90 minutes quite well, and frankly most of the reviews here I very much disagree with.  (Including the EXCELLENT!!!!1 ones.)  I appreciate what they are doing with the material and I definitely can't wait for the 3rd one - it will be extremely difficult to pull it off well I think, particularly in regards to Casca/Femto.  I'll be honest here - while I know that the rape is very integral to the plot in the manga the presentation is just too much for me and other people I have tried to get interested in the manga. If the studio takes it in a different direction such as a 'less is more' route, it could be a vastly superior scene without the absurd exhibition.  That and if it is as graphic as the manga, I don't see it coming out state side.

I have shown the first film to a couple of people who were not familiar with the series, and it interested them enough to borrow some of my manga.  I feel that this movie does a good job of continuing that, and hopefully the third one will do the same along with it hopefully continuing.  Most of the Berserk fans hating on the films I think just hate that they're animating the Golden Age AGAIN and are examining it a bit too much.  They want the Black Swordsman arc, Lost Children, Retribution, and all of the good stuff afterward.  Count me among those fans that want to see them brought to life, and hopefully these first three movies will be successful enough to justify it.

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Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Golden Age Arc II: Capture of Doldrey [Review]
« on: December 07, 2012, 05:12:01 AM »
Guts throws a flag at Boscone to distract him before following up with an attack to cut both him and his horse in half.

I'm laughing way, WAY too hard at this.
Sounds like another mixed bag, but I enjoyed the first one for what it was and I am very much looking forward to Descent.

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Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: November 21, 2012, 01:22:49 PM »
Maybe they're just holding back Wyald from the trailer to surprise you?  That would be excellent.
Based on that trailer (damn!), it makes more sense to me for the Bakiraka to be the main part of the chase with Silat being confirmed in the movie, so they can tie them together. 
They are already cramming a LOT into this and it has to go well past the eclipse, as they show a brief shot of what appears to be a spirit attempting to posses Guts after he goes out for his jog in the night afterward before bumping into SK.



I'm thinking the logical ending point is when Guts kills the apostle that comes to Godo's house as he is about to leave.  I can see them cutting Wyald in favor of that being the first time he kills one on his own and building him from there progression wise.

The eclipse won't hit anyone's lofty expectations.  I can only hope they do it justice, but it seems like they are on the right path in general.

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Video Games / Re: Mass Effect 3 [Spoilers]
« on: June 27, 2012, 11:09:00 PM »
So what are you guys' thoughts about the refusal ending ?

I thought it was absolutely hilarious.  And such a missed opportunity to make the EMS value truly matter.  If Shep had basically walked back out there and continued fighting until he/she died because of that choice, I think it would have been perfectly acceptable.

The Control ending became the best for the obvious reason that Shep is now lord of the reapers.  I'm imagining Reaper-shep barking out orders to Harbinger while he kicks it in his hammock and sipping lemonade.  It's against everything you fought for really, but the monologue was pretty good I think.

I also really liked EDI's monologue during Synthesis.  The rest of the thing is stupid and a waste, but EDI's perspective lifted it up.

Also, the bit where Shep calls the Normandy to take your squadmates before going to the end was hilarious.  Harbinger is mowing down everyone on the way, but pretty much spaces out when a massive war frigate shows up to pick them up.  THIS HURTS ME.

I'm pretty much a whore for this series though and am still looking forward to a couple of good DLC, like Aria taking back Omega and this supposed Reaper named Leviathan that defects to the organics' side of things.

Still my favorite series in recent memory in terms of characters, regardless of the endings.

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Video Games / Re: Mass Effect 3 [Spoilers]
« on: June 27, 2012, 04:38:28 AM »
I love how Control basically became the best ending because of this DLC.
It's also hard to care as much about the story when you've been removed from it for months.  Good effort, but this should have been in the ending from the start.

Thankfully it is over now, and hopefully we get ourselves a Garrus game!

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Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Prometheus
« on: June 11, 2012, 11:54:50 PM »
I enjoyed the ride.

I don't think the movie really tried to say that it was a prequel to Alien and beat people over the head with it.  Now the religious parallels and what not, yeah it was a bit much but I thought it was hilarious.  Also, abortion-in-a-box.

Prometheus is a sci-fi movie that expands an existing universe, which is ultimately the best way to do it to me.  On one hand you see an aspect of the universe you never completely expected.  It adds some threads to the lore, how the Xenomorphs came about and the like - meanwhile adding another place for the story to gravitate towards.  Not a bad thing, I think.

The plot made no real sense most of the time, most of the characters suddenly just threw in two cents about what was happening and it happened.  Pretty convenient but who cares?  My only question was, Did Stringer Bell tap that?!  :daiba:
Black goo was a plot device to rival ALL PLOT DEVICES.  It created some great moments and made speculate what it was all about.

I haven't seen Alien in quite some time but I do look forward to rewatching it soon because of this movie.  It is unsurprising that many people have never seen it - it was released in 1979 which is an eternity for the general movie-goer that sees movies now.

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Video Games / Re: Mass Effect 3 [Spoilers]
« on: April 14, 2012, 08:45:56 PM »
I don't think it was bittersweet, people just felt that way about it ending (some awkwardness in the execution didn't help). I mean, saving all life in the galaxy from certain doom against unbelievable odds was already pretty positive without pouring sugar on top. That's probably what they'll do in the DLC. We'll see if that makes it better.

I feel this way too especially on my second run through.  I guess the first time around I was just stunned it was over.  But looking back, it's still a great game (to me) all the way through, and the ending itself is just on a different timeline than just a single game - I felt like the ending had been happening for a few hours, and the final mission was the real send off.

No one could be completely satisfied with the ending, and Bioware unfortunately backed themselves into that corner with their own characters but in the grand scheme of it all they did it right.  I'll be interested to see how the DLC changes things.

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Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: March 24, 2012, 07:59:50 PM »
I really like the music in this one--the stuff that plays before Aria. Wonder if that's in the movie, or just trailer hype.


Not likely in the movie.  It's basically generic 'epic music' farmed out.  Movie companies just license it for use most of the time, including WB I would imagine.  Immediate Music does a lot of this if you search.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsoktnM0e0k

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Current Episodes / Re: Episode 327
« on: February 10, 2012, 12:39:56 AM »
So at the end of page 11 we see him slowly closing his eyes, is he losing consciousness ?

Maybe, but given his dialogue prior to that, it seems like he's feeling just incredulous at the situation.  "Am I really going to die in a place like this?"

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In page 12, the MB appears, catching Guts attention :
                   - Guts is conscious. This is the first time that the MB interacts with the physical realm (I mean, everybody from Schierke to the last sailor would see him. And if it was a consequence of the Merging, he would have appeared in front of everybody the previous time, back on the Island). He's acting as a lamplight, helping Guts swimming through the darkness of the Seagod's blood (+ Guts "blindness") Still, how can an astral projection be visible ?

Which one is it ?

MB doesn't necessarily have to follow the same rules we have seen thus far.  We know nearly nothing about him other than what has been implied.
I believe Guts is mainly conscious.  When MB says "Here." Guts has realized he has managed to cut through and seawater is coming through ("I'm outside!").  But the effort clearly took its toll and the Mermaids picked him up from there.

This was an awesome episode, but the dialogue Guts has with himself is indeed pretty distressing.  "Such is the fate of whoever wears the berserker armor so they say..."

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Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Movie OST
« on: February 07, 2012, 01:31:54 AM »
"Aria" feels like listening to Hirasawa for the first time again.

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Current Episodes / Re: Episode 326
« on: January 27, 2012, 03:03:02 AM »
The chat with the beast is probably the scene that caught me the most.  Almost as if he's antagonizing the beast - can't recall seeing that before, and Guts essentially telling him to do whatever it takes to get him up is interesting too.  In a way it seems he may have taken steps to 'master' what the armor can do.  Too bad he's on the verge of death again!

Great return episode all in all.

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News & Not News / Re: News & Not News Megathread
« on: July 01, 2010, 11:12:06 PM »

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Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Movies to dread
« on: June 01, 2010, 04:41:11 PM »
The movie looks like a terrible combination of shit Youtube memes strung together by an editorial staff that runs some MMO gaming site that no one ever visits.

Shaun of the Dead was pretty good.
Hot Fuzz wasn't that good.

I hope it turns out to be hilariously awesome and be proven wrong.  But damn.

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Video Games / Re: Mass Effect 2
« on: April 07, 2010, 12:10:41 AM »
Yeah, it won't let you play it unless you've paid.  But there's the media for it anyway.

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Video Games / Re: Mass Effect 2
« on: April 06, 2010, 11:37:58 PM »
If you're a PC user like me here's the direct DL for Kasumi:

http://static.cdn.ea.com/bioware/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect2/ME2_DLC/ME2_Kasumi.exe

900MB or so, pretty huge.

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Creation Station / Re: I made a giant Schnoz in my garden
« on: March 27, 2010, 02:31:05 PM »
Hahaha, that is awesome.

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Video Games / Re: What Are You Playing?
« on: March 19, 2010, 12:23:53 AM »
Yeah well, I'd be irritated too if the guy I had the hots for and admired and stuff pretty much never said a goddamned word.   :daiba:
Also joining the GOW3 train - it is guddamned amazing so far.

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Video Games / Re: Mass Effect 2
« on: March 12, 2010, 10:38:32 PM »
Zaeed is easily one of the most badass members of the squad next to a renegade femshep  :guts:

I'm running through it again for the 3rd time, a Sentinel Insanity run.  So far I'm diggin it but it is brutal.  I may hold off completing it until Kasumi is released, her mission sounds really really awesome.

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Video Games / Re: Deus Ex 3
« on: March 12, 2010, 10:34:22 PM »
Too early to tell if it will be worth anything this time around.  I really think they should have held off until a little before release.  Putting out a teaser for the E3 showing isn't promising though.

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Video Games / Re: Who's your favorite lady on the Normandy?
« on: February 25, 2010, 05:04:17 PM »
Tali is forbidden fruit indeed. :carcus: You Asari/human/turian loving scum can piss off!

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Video Games / Re: Heavy Rain
« on: February 17, 2010, 05:03:44 PM »
It's definitely different.  The initial scene with the fight is actually well done and pretty intense in its own way.  I'll be picking this up soon.

23
Video Games / Re: Anyone playing WoW?
« on: October 26, 2009, 10:16:13 PM »
I still play on Dragonmaw but I'm more casual these days.  Between car restoration, cert studying and working and playing my PS3, time is limited to like 1 night a week (to run Trial of the Champion).

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Current Episodes / Re: Episode 309
« on: October 23, 2009, 01:25:32 PM »
Excellent episode, especially the buildup to the final frames with Guts going buzzsaw on the sea creature.

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Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Movies to dread
« on: October 19, 2009, 12:09:10 PM »
My lady is going to want to see that on opening night.  Hah!
(And she'll drag me kicking and screaming because she knows how much I go crazy watching most of anything Cronenberg.)

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