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Messages - Cyrus Jong

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51
Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Movies to dread
« on: February 23, 2017, 06:46:17 PM »
Four and a half minutes and I'm already rooting for the alien. Nothing makes my indifference kick in faster than an expectation that I should care with overly sentimental lines like "I couldn't have picked a better bunch of jerks."

52
Berserk Anime / Re: 2017 Berserk TV Series (Season 2)
« on: February 20, 2017, 04:47:26 AM »
Looks like a fan art...

Not saying it doesn't look good, but I won't be impressed until I see it in full motion.

And why aren't we seeing a voice actor for Grunbeld? Something tells me this is some sort of omen. :magni:
I bet you still won't be impressed once you do see it in full motion.

As for Grunbeld's absence, it's possible they just didn't consider him an important-enough character to consider listing him in the cast here. However, being as he plays a major part in the debut of the Berserker Armor, which they're so far banking all their promotion of the series on, I agree that it's a bad sign. Wouldn't be surprised if they just omitted him entirely or turned him into a voiceless grunt.

53
Video Games / Re: What Are You Playing?
« on: February 13, 2017, 06:58:46 AM »
Just completed Shadow Tactics. A lot of fun and a good change of pace for me. Now to decide between moving on to Dishonored 2 or Gravity Rush 2 next.

Nioh has my attention, but I'm going to wait on it. The urge to return to Bloodborne and Salt and Sanctuary is strong, so I don't really need any new Souls-like games for the time being.

55
Video Games / Re: What Are You Playing?
« on: February 03, 2017, 01:58:39 AM »
Grabbed this adventure game called Cayne off GOG. And it's been on Steam since late January. The mystifying thing is that it's free on both platforms, no strings attached (no paywalls, no ads, no nothing). It's meant to be some kind of spinoff to STASIS, if that means anything to anyone here. I'm very impressed by the production values in any case, and it definitely looks like it has an intriguing story, though playing it reminded me why I don't like adventure games. But hey, I can't complain.

56
Berserk Anime / Re: 2017 Berserk TV Series (Season 2)
« on: January 26, 2017, 05:00:19 AM »
So do we know how far the 2nd season is supposed to cover up to?

We don't know for sure, just that the Berserker Armor will make an appearance. Assuming of course, the show doesn't get cancelled halfway through due to poor ratings as viewers burned from last season decide not to tune in. Keeps fingers crossed.

If I were to make a guess as to where the endpoint would be, then I'd say it would be when Guts and company flee Flora's home about a third of the way through v27. The first season roughly covered five volumes of material (17-21) plus about the last third of v16. Since that endpoint means they would have to cover about the same amount of material give or take (volumes 22-26, plus the first third of v27), I'd say it's a good estimate. But don't quote me on this.

57
Speculation Nation / Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« on: January 11, 2017, 05:48:20 AM »
Because if something is necessary to advance the plot, it will happen... even if it isn't 100% logical.
Truly, what a winning argument. Throw logic out the window, only what you say goes. You're really going to convince people with that line of thinking. If I ever find myself on trial, I'll know who to call to be my defendant.

But it sums your pet theory up. It's not based on logic at all. It's not based on facts or events that have been established in the manga. It's based entirely on what you alone want and what you alone want to see. Anything that comes up that directly contradicts it? An inconsistency, a retcon, plot armor, or some other bullshit facet of bad writing. It can't possibly be because, wait for it...that you could in fact be wrong and that you have a poor understanding of the story! Perish the thought!

You've already got a warped bias. You hate Casca, you conflate her negative traits, completely ignore her positive ones, and resort to a ton of double standards to justify it. You dismiss arguments against your predictions concerning her as they don't respect her position as a "stronk independent woman," and yet all you're doing is basically speaking for her and deciding what all her motivations will be when she hasn't even had a chance to say anything.

And what does this all come down? Shipping. You want Casca neatly out of the way so that Farnese can move in and make Guts her hubby. There's a trope for that, you know. And just when I thought that Berserk's fandom was immune to this bullshit.

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In fact something like that really would be bad writing.

When your own theory requires bad writing to work out (which is what inconsistencies, retcons, plot armor, and forced plot contrivances, all of which you've championed in this topic, are), you're in no position to criticize possibilities outside of it as "bad writing."

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Miura always wrote a good story, not a story designed to appease certain fans.

And a good story can only be whatever you want. Because if it isn't, then it's only designed to "appease certain fans." :schierke:

58
Speculation Nation / Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« on: January 03, 2017, 10:15:07 AM »
Farnese qualifies as a sacrifice because Casca sees her as her best friend. And nobody can deny that Farnese is beginning to lose her patience with Casca. That scene was written for a reason.

Farnese is only Casca's best friend in as much as her currently simple mind can allow. That may not (and most definitely will not) be the case once she recovers and gains more mental and emotional complexity. Because even in her current state, Casca doesn't know Farnese either. Not enough to make a worthy sacrifice. And that's assuming Casca can even recall the events that happened while she was mad, which will make it even less the case.

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It's true that Casca hates and fears Guts however what the Elf Queen didn't seem to consider is that Farnese and Schierke are not exactly an unbiased 3rd party. Yes, they are tied to Casca but they also have strong feelings for Guts. And this could cause a serious problem during the ritual. Farnese and Schierke do not and will not see Guts as a monster the way Casca does. They know almost nothing about Casca's past. So although they are tied to Casca they may not be the most qualified people to cure her.

You're assuming that any of this is going to be a problem in the ritual at all, 'cause I didn't see any sign that their impressions of Guts would affect anything. It wasn't Guts that broke Casca, it was the Eclipse, and it's the memories of that that she buried deep down in her mind. We already saw the impression of Guts that Casca has of him in her current state in e347, and it really didn't amount to anything outside of background fluff. You're also assuming that even if Guts' prior treatment of Casca does come into play during the ritual, that Schierke and Farnese are just going to turn their heads the other way and ignore it. They're not stupid, and Farnese in particular knows from experience how horrific sexual assault can be. AND she would finally have her answer as to why Casca is so hostile to Guts. It is possible that they won't keep him held up on a pedestal if they do find out too, you know.

And even if it is a problem, simple fact of the matter is that there isn't anyone better. All the witches on the island are strangers, Guts is just too unstable, Schierke is an experienced magic user who Casca is familiar with and doesn't mind, and Farnese is a witch-in-training who Casca is fond of. They're the best they've got. End of discussion.

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This happened right before the Battle for Doldrey... and then Guts left the Band Of The Hawk.

And the fact of the matter is that in that short time, their previous petty arguments no longer mattered. Guts and Casca were able to move past that and get along. Why can't you? And if you want to blame anyone for having things be cut short, then blame Guts. He's the one who left after all, even when Casca begged him not to go. Which, by the way, was a very hurtful thing of him to do to her, hence why she had such a strong emotional reaction once he came back one year later.

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Yes, Casca began to change for the better... a few days before the Eclipse. I'm not denying that she began to change but it was too little too late.

I can see there's no point in trying to change your mind since Casca's irredeemable to you. A few mean words to Guts are enough to place her over the edge, but helping him overcome the most painful memories in his life up to that point are "too little, too late."

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But we are not getting Golden Age Casca back. When Casca is cured she may get a completely different personality and nothing so far implies that she will forgive Guts or want to be with him ever again.

That wasn't my point. My point was is that she's going to become lucid soon. She's going to be able to start thinking for herself again, taking care of herself, talk, fight, find meaning in her life, and bathe without splashing water everywhere again. To continue writing her off as irrelevant (which she never was in the first place) when her recovery is happening right now is stupid as hell.

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I'm aware of that fan-theory but I don't buy it because:

What fan theory? I didn't put any theory in here whatsoever. I merely pointed out that Casca has a very unique and important connection with three extremely vital characters in the series. A connection that no one else in the series has, a connection that can't just be replaced by any female character as you seem to think, and a connection that would imply she has just as much importance as Guts, Griffith and the child.

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2. The Idea Of Evil controls and manipulates causality, it planned everything exactly the way it was supposed to be. The IOE planned for Griffith to be incarnated in the body of Casca's child. Is the IOE so incompetent that it unintentionally gave Griffith a fatal flaw that will lead to his defeat? That makes no sense. The IOE is a god. It does not make stupid mistakes.
Does the IOE want Griffith to be defeated someday? That doesn't make much sense either but I guess it's a little more debatable.

First of all, this isn't Lovecraft's story, this is Miura's. Second of all, the principle of Causality, while powerful and nearly impossible to divert, isn't absolute. Skull Knight explained this to Guts in v18.

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"The world is as moonlight reflected on the water's surface. The moon's light will not be extinguished. So long as the moon exists in the sky, moonlight will remain on the water...and this is a thing which already was.
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"Though minute singular details certainly can occur at the time junction point that even they can't predict, I will in turn gamble everything on that point. And even if it imitates the Eclipse, it doesn't mean it will be exactly the same. The scope too has natural limits in the material domain. Furthermore, that Brand carved into you, it may be an unanticipated aid. As I told you before, due to the Brand, you now live in the 'Interstice.' That is, the borderline between the physical and astral worlds. It's merely a half-step, but you are outside the reason of the world. Maybe you aren't a shadow on the water, but instead a fish that breaches the water's surface."

These junction points in time are where Causality is at its "weakest" and where the God Hand are at their least "omniscient." which is why the Skull Knight always makes his attacks when they're about to unfold. So far, his efforts haven't borne much fruit...but we do have good reason to think Guts' may have.

We're going into theoretical matters here, but tellingly, the bolded part is repeated at the end of e166 (which is, also tellingly, called "Leaping Fish"), when Guts leaps from the top of the tower, sword-first into Mozgus, and right where he needs to be to protect Casca. Guts made his choice to protect Casca at that point, putting her safety and well-being over his revenge on Griffith. The use of this line at this scene emphasizes that Guts may indeed have jumped out of the flow of Causality. Very briefly, and it didn't really change much in the grand scheme of things, for Griffith gained his physical body and went on acquire his own kingdom...but it has left the parents of the child alive. And as we saw at the beginning of v22, the child does indeed have an effect on Griffith. So there you go, a chink in Griffith's armor formed from some miniscule events that didn't go fully with "the plan" as it were.

You can dismiss that as fan theory all you like. But unlike yours, it's based on details from the manga as written by Miura, and not from some short story published in 1929.

59
Speculation Nation / Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« on: January 02, 2017, 10:42:14 AM »
And so the "awful truth" as it is comes out. It's amusing how there's always a correlation between how much someone dislikes Casca and how much they theorize she'll turn traitor.

The Awful Truth, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You dismiss why Farnese should partake in the ceremony to restore Casca's mind because she doesn't know her (and even go so far as to say that Farnese won't even try to understand Casca's point of view), but then turn around and say that she's Casca's best friend and the one to qualify as a sacrifice. Either they have a deep emotional bond or they don't. You can't have it both ways. You also ignore a lot of points that were clearly spelled out. Danan outright says that Guts can't delve into Casca's dreams because her fear of him would disturb the ritual. Those who are tied to Casca are the ones most qualified to help her. That's why Schierke and Farnese were sent in, and complete strangers like the witches of Elfhelm were not. And being as Danan knows how the ritual goes and what needs to be done for it to be a success, I'd say she's a hell of a lot more qualified than you are in knowing what's best for Casca.

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I know this isn't a popular opinion but Casca was always a bitch. She was always subconsciously hostile to Guts since the day Guts joined the Band Of The Hawk.

No, she wasn't. They didn't get along at first, and they butted heads a lot, but they did bond during their time, and she did a lot of nice things to him too. Are you forgetting how happy Casca was to see Guts was alive amidst the piles of dead mercs after the hundred-man battle? How Casca healed Guts' wounds with elven powder and they shared their "Bonfire of Dreams" conversation. How she really didn't want Guts to leave the Falcons? How she comforted him when he had his emotional breakdown during their love scene?

Yeah, what a bitch.  :schierke:

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The biggest problem is that nobody ever told Casca to shut the hell up and know her place. Guts, Griffith, Pippin, and Judo were much better warriors than Casca. We saw it during the battles with the Chuder army, during Griffith's rescue mission, and again during the Eclipse.

What did we see exactly? During the Hundred Year War, we only ever saw Judeau and Pippin fighting ordinary mooks. We saw Casca kill mooks too, on top of Adon, so I'd say she's already got leg up on them. While it's easy to dismiss Mister Corbowitz, anyone with passing knowledge of martial combat would see just how tremendously skilled Casca would have to be to win that fight. Adon had all the advantages; he was bigger than her, stronger, decked in thick armor, and had the advantage of range with his spear. Casca, with her comparatively puny little frame and sword, schooled him without breaking a sweat. And she was still able to kill him even while he poisoned her.

Judeau and Pippin managed to show off some more impressive feats during their clash against the Bakiraka assassins, but Casca was there too (and calling the shots), so that's not really doing much to put them over her on the warrior hierarchy. Not to mention Casca has one thing that they didn't have: leadership abilities. It wasn't Judeau, Pippin, or Guts who led the Falcons during their darkest year when they were declared traitors of Midland, it was her.

Oh, and by the way, Casca's the only person besides Guts to actually have an Apostle kill under her belt. And she didn't have any magical weapons to help her then. So she's already got a few things over the rest of Guts' crew.

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What really made me hate her was her behavior in Volume 9 when she attacked Guts at the waterfall (and this was after Guts once again saved her life a few hours earlier). Comrades aren't supposed to treat each other that way.

And you ignore everything that happened afterwards. How through simple understanding, Casca helped Guts overcome the trauma of being raped and killing his father, which had been haunting him for years, and which cut him far deeper than the little stab wound Casca inflicted on him (and regretted immediately).

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She hasn't been a relevant or useful member of Guts' party since 1996. Miura has introduced other female characters who are much more likeable than Casca ever was. Erika, Jill, Luca, Flora, (nice) Farnese, Schierke, Farnese's mother, Isma, and Isma's mother.

Even if Casca changes her personality 180 degrees after her therapy is over, what is the point of keeping her around now? I really do not like this idea that Guts still needs Casca to somehow help him battle his inner demons. I understand that Miura didn't plan that far ahead when he wrote the Eclipse and its aftermath but the fact is that Guts now has new female friends who treat him much better than Casca ever did. Isn't it time for Guts to move on?

Yeah, Casca hasn't been relevant. She's only been, oh, I don't know, the entire reason this party formed in the first place and has been journeying to Elfhelm. Lovely to see how interchangeable you think female characters are too, and don't care one ounce about Casca's history with Guts, Griffith, and the child. Or don't think she can have any place in the story when she's just a stone's throw away from coming back in full force.

Sorry that Guts feels an attachment to a character that you don't. Sorry if you don't think she should or could be the one to save him from himself, even though she's done that before. Sorry you think it's awful how many mountains Guts is willing to move to help a soul who's been so terribly traumatized and that he should just "move on." There are lots of women in Berserk, but there's only one Casca, and like it or not, she's the only person Guts was ever able to confide in. It takes more than a pair of mammary glands to be able to do that.

60
Video Games / Re: What Are You Playing?
« on: December 13, 2016, 04:40:34 AM »
Been playing Salt and Sanctuary. It's very shameless in how it copies the mechanics and general style of Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne and applies them to a 2D format, but, uh...I was really hoping to see a game like that for a long time, and Ska Studios did it so well, that I can't complain. Or put down. And like its sources of inspiration, I really dig the minimalist storytelling, lore and world-building it has going on, though it could use a lot more work in trying to use its environments to say something. It feels like a good successor to Castlevania too, at least until Bloodstained comes along.

Also tried out the demo for Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun, a tactical stealth game in the same vein as Commandos, but set in a feudal Japanese setting that appeals to me more. Definitely looks like something worth checking out.

Also, if anyone's interested, my father used to work at Rare before (and after) they activated their Beherit and joined Microsoft, so if there are any Rare fans out there, feel free to enquire about... stuff.

Interesting. Was anyone at the company able to legitimately beat Battletoads?

61
Manga Mausoleum / Re: Vol 3 / 14 Sanity check
« on: December 12, 2016, 07:44:02 PM »
What's there to talk about? Guts saw Femto (and the rest of the God Hand) for the first time since the Eclipse, tried to kill him, and failed. Don't see why this is worth dwelling on for a guy so intensely task-oriented as Guts, and he's not the type to talk about it to other people.

It has been indirectly referenced, though. Puck recalls seeing the God Hand (and visualizes them in chibi form) in Volume 15, and he wonders what they did to make Guts as hateful as he is.

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Berserk Miscellaneous / Re: Berserk Musou (PS3, PS4, PC)
« on: October 16, 2016, 06:30:38 AM »
has anyone confirmed how far the story in this game goes?
We don't know. However, this trailer shows Guts riding a flying Zodd in Vritannis, so it'll go to the early parts of Volume 32 at least. And if I were to hazard a guess, that will likely be the last fight in the game.

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Current Episodes / Re: Episode 347
« on: October 08, 2016, 02:36:43 AM »
Ah, never played it. Interesting.

Here's the scene if you're interested. As well as the rest of the game's story. Word of warning: the English translation of the game...left a lot to be desired.

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Berserk Anime / Re: 2016 Berserk TV series: Episode 12
« on: October 04, 2016, 01:51:58 PM »
I was a little confused though, wasn't Zodd suppose to loose a horn in a fight with Griffith? THEN he joins the new Band Of The Hawk? or did I fall asleep through that bit in the episode  :troll:
He was supposed to have a dream (likely part of the shared dream that most everyone in Midland and possibly beyond had) where he encountered the Falcon of Light, who soundly defeated him, left him with a message to seek his "desired" at the holy ground, and cut off his horn. But like many things in the new anime series, the studio just cut it out, leaving anyone who hasn't read the manga clueless over what the deal with Zodd is.

The new Band of Falcon doesn't really form until the Millennium Falcon arc, though I guess you could say Zodd was the first to officially join when he bowed before Griffith at the end of Conviction.

65
Current Episodes / Re: Berserk Guidebook
« on: September 29, 2016, 07:27:34 AM »
Thanks for providing that, -cause.

The data in this book is...interesting I guess, and not necessarily in a good way. I mean, every instance where Casca is listed, are they referring to her before or after the Eclipse? Thanks to muscle atrophy, I can't image that she'd really be as high up on the lists for strength, endurance, and agility in the present, but her past self would most definitely not be so low on the scales for brainpower and mental strength. And Schierke, Farnese and Guts are most definitely not worse than her currently in terms of sociability.

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Current Episodes / Re: Episode 347
« on: September 27, 2016, 09:46:41 AM »
Only Miura could make his rough storyboard sketches look creepy in their own right. That shattered doll that's supposed to be Casca and the withered horse dragging her are going to be haunting my dreams tonight.

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Berserk Miscellaneous / Re: Berserk Musou (PS3, PS4, PC)
« on: September 27, 2016, 09:34:16 AM »
Guess we can add huffing helium as another one of Wyald's depraved ways to seek enjoyment and excitement.

69
Creation Station / Re: GummySkull's colors and fanart
« on: September 25, 2016, 04:55:12 AM »
Nice! The Eclipse looks suitably creepy, but you still managed to make the flower petals stand out and even glow without either losing them or downplaying the ominous nature in the image. And seeing the colorized version of Casca's dreamscape brings a smile to my face. It's even sloppy enough to look like a child's typical crayon coloring.

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Speculation Nation / Re: Will Rosine be mentioned soon?
« on: September 25, 2016, 04:41:13 AM »
Rosine's irrelevant. She may have been designed as a crude imitation of an elf, she may have fancied herself as the queen of elvenkind, but in the end, she would just be an apostle as far as the witches and real elves are concerned, no different from the thousands of others serving under Griffith. And she's dead, which makes her even more meaningless.

That aside, it might be possible for the events of Lost Children to have some relevance in the future. We know the tree in the Misty Valley where Rosine made her "nest" used to be a home for elves, and may even have been a spirit tree. Unfortunately, since Guts set it aflame, I doubt there will be any reason to revisit that location, and that the most it can warrant is a brief mention or callback.

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Current Episodes / Re: Episode 347
« on: September 23, 2016, 05:24:07 AM »
Great examples, and I do see what's being said here. But I don't think the Beast will actually be revealed at all in Casca's dreams, unless it somehow manifests because of Schierke's previous dealings with :beast:. Since this will be in Casca's deep suppressed thoughts and memories, I feel the main focal point of her thoughts will be of the Eclipse, since this event was the direct cause of her mental condition now.

Casca has always shown to be afraid of Guts immediately after he wakes up from the Eclipse. I don't know if it's been fully explained as to why she showed this much animosity towards him from the start, even before his consumed hatred took control of him to take aggression/frustration out on her.

Casca's initial fear of Guts didn't necessarily seem to be of him personally. According to Rickert, the only person she felt comfortable around was Erika, so it's likely her fear at that point extended to all males, or at least of people above a certain age or size range. After some time, she appeared to get better, in that she could at least tolerate his presence, but was still anxious about being in close proximity, and physical contact was still a big no-no. By the time she reached Albion, she seemed to get over most of her anxiety and only really showed fear of people and things that were trying to harm her, and after the events, had no problems with Guts whatsoever. It wasn't until Guts attempted to throttle Casca while possessed by a specter that she began to fear him personally, his treating her like a prisoner afterward fueled her resentment of him, and his attempt to rape her permanently cemented him as a monster in her mind.

While I don't for a second think we'll see the Beast either, I do think it's possible that we (and by extension, Farnese and Schierke) may see images representing Guts' attempted rape on Casca alongside or even blended with her rape at Femto's hands. Now, if they do see anything like it, I don't think Schierke and Farnese will necessarily turn against Guts. But there will be some pointed questions later on, questions that I don't think he'll be able to answer.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Still too many ifs and buts to make a call about what's going to happen in these dark depths.

73
Current Episodes / Re: Episode 347
« on: September 23, 2016, 02:46:46 AM »
Oh, Miura, you are truly the face of evil. Throwing that ominous page at us after spending four episodes straight lulling us into a false sense of security with your goofiness and your whimsy and your sense of wonder...

Definitely never expected to see anything like the childish scribbles in Casca's dreamscape though. Hell, I never expected to use the term "childish scribbles" to describe anything in Berserk before. But it works! It's funny, probably the singlemost hilarious thing in these past few episodes yet, and it perfectly encapsulate Casca's state of mind like nothing else. Which also makes it depressing as hell.

You're looking into the last page too much. It's in no way the Beast of Darkness, since it only relates to Guts himself. The Beast of Darkness is used to symbolize Guts' revenge, deepest sorrows, and the immense hatred.

It has no purpose in Casca's dream whatsoever.
I'm going to echo Walter's sentiments here. The last page evokes some very recurring imagery.

Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Images of Guts and his assault on her are likely going to be present in Casca's dreams, as are the Eclipse and her rape at Femto's hands. In her current state, she probably can't even differentiate between the two. And if that's the case, then Schierke and Farnese, the two people who arguably have the most respect and admiration for Guts, may see him perform his most depraved act yet, which so far, only he and Casca know about. As if the process of curing Casca won't be painful enough. :judo:

Ohhhhh, these next few episodes are going to be intense. Intense...and soul-crushing.

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Current Episodes / Re: Status of Berserk's Pre-publication
« on: September 20, 2016, 12:39:27 PM »
If this is because Miura needs to plan out the story, draw more pages, refine his art, or whatever else, then I respect it. I'm disappointed that we won't be getting six new episodes like we did last year, but I'll take what we got. It was a great ride while it lasted, and I'll be rubbing my hands in anticipation for when it continues. And hopefully, for when Casca returns. The fact that I'm so eager for more is proof positive that Berserk has not lost its touch.

If this is a decision made by Hakusensha to be used as a marketing stunt for that shit stain they call an anime, then the anime can go fuck itself even harder than it has before. I could ignore it safely enough otherwise, but if it's having any effect on the manga, then I'm always going to feel its sting, regardless of whether or not I actually watch it.

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Speculation Nation / Re: Elfhelm: the stage for the next great tragedy
« on: September 18, 2016, 12:47:34 AM »
That hasn't be specifically addressed. Twice Slan has mused over Guts becoming an apostle, even though he is branded. If it were impossible I don't know that she would keep bringing it up. Though the second time she mentions it (in the Qliphoth), it seems she is merely trying to provoke an emotional response out of Guts instead of actually seriously suggesting it.
I really wouldn't say the first instance (which I assume is during the Count's ceremony in Volume 3) was suggesting it either. She just remarked how she would "love it" if Guts "became one of [theirs]," which Conrad immediately shoots down. Personally, I don't take it to mean anything other than how she expresses her depraved lust for him. Or perhaps how she would love the irony of someone who becomes an Apostle despite (or more accurately, because) of his supreme hatred for them.

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