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Messages - ApostleBob

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501
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: January 26, 2012, 08:58:43 PM »
Those lighting effects in the Corkus interview... look weird.  Same with the flash animation falling leaves.  I appreciate the effort at detail and realism but the scene would've almost been better with flat lighting.  Very distracting.

502
Speculation Nation / Re: The purpose of the Apostles
« on: January 25, 2012, 04:47:38 AM »
When you start trying to decipher the grand scheme behind the God Hand and the Idea of Evil, you're venturing into unknown territory. For that reason, it's not the best material for speculation because there's little grounds to further any potential theory.

I guess I was just trying to make the point that it seems like the IoE does have some end in mind to it's machinations.  What that is, whether it's Falconia, or something beyond, is yet to be seen.  But there does appear to be purpose to all the GHs manipulation and influence.  It's not just to keep a status quo.  I was just speculating as to what part the Apostles have in it.

Quite the opposite, actually. They appear to be stealthily manipulating events of national and possibly global importance from behind the scenes. The key scenes for that are Slan visible during the orgy in Vol 18, and Conrad being formed by rats outside Wyndham, spreading plague. And those are just the instances we were shown. Skull Knight tells Guts in vol 18 that they can be found just behind the veil in any place of "concentrated negative human emotion." Just because we don't see them hurling boulders at armies doesn't mean they aren't influencing people.

I think we're saying the same thing.  They can nudge and influence humanity, often with large results, but they cannot directly interfere with it's affairs except in extreme circumstances.  They are the man behind the curtain pulling the strings, but no one is aware.  For example, they would never appear out of thin air and strike down Ganishka for daring to oppose them.  They are more subtle, so much so that almost appears to an untrained eye that they don't exist.  Which is exactly what 99% of the Berserk world believe.

Apostles have a directive "do as you will," but their will has already been molded into a suitable form for the larger scheme. The apostle coda may as well be: "Do as you will (For all the good it will do you...)"

A great way to put it.  But other than Zodd, Wyald, Eggman and Ganishka, most of them seem to have little influence at all on world events.  They're either just assholes or exceptional soldiers.  But maybe that's enough.  :zodd:

Of course, humans aren't programmable like robots.  The count obviously goes against the role carved for him. But they can be placed in specific circumstances where the outcome is nearly inevitable. That's the method the IoE uses. For such a complex computation, I think apostles are probably useful as controlled variables.

Maybe it deserves a separate topic but I find it interesting that despite all the manipulation and precognition the IoE seems to have over the world, it makes it a big point that becoming an apostle (or a God Hand) is a choice.  A very coerced choice at their weakest state, to be sure, but still it is not forced.  A lot of emphasis is put on man having no control even over his own will, and that causality rules overall.   :void:

The implication is that free will is an illusion and that determinism is the rule of the day.  But why then does Miura offer choice at this critical stage?  He could have easily just had the sacrifice be automatic as Guts predicted in Vol 12.  And why show an exception like the Count early on in the story?  I have a suspicion that the strength of individual will can trump causality and collective desire.  Guts characteristic stubbornness in the face of impossibility and the dependence on apostle candidates to choose seem to point to this being Miura's end intention.  But hey that's me.   :slan:

As powerful beings granted near-immortality, they swing a heavier hammer of influence on the world than the average human. So it probably works favorably for the GH and the IoE that these same beings have their bodies bound to evil.

Agreed of course, but it's a little vague for my tastes.  I wonder if we'll ever get a more specific answer to this in the manga.  I doubt it.

Most people don't even acknowledge that apostles exist, so the atmosphere clearly isn't just from some apostles terrorizing humans.  

True, few even acknowledge the supernatural exists at all until recently.  But by climbing into these power positions, often through their apostle superiority (Koka, Count, Ganishka, Wyald), many of them have the ability to influence the population without revealing their true nature.  

503
Speculation Nation / The purpose of the Apostles
« on: January 25, 2012, 12:22:30 AM »
I've been a long time reader of Berserk, but something has always bugged me.  The IoE has spun causality for millennia in order to shape man's will for some grand design.   Perhaps it's Falconia.  But the IoE cannot interact with the world directly.  To guide the IoE's design, it creates the God Hand as middlemen, out of what I assume are exceptional human beings with incredibly strong will.  I assume this about them because Griffith was this way, and because the IoE is essentially fueled by and created by human will (not the strongest argument, but I think it fits thematically).  But even they are like shadows on the world, only able to influence small events, never to interfere (except after an incarnation such as Griffith).  With one exception:  They preside over the creation of apostles.  Only the apostles can exist on the material world up to now.  But to what end?

Everything the IoE seems to have done seems to be with the long term in mind, that much is pretty clear.  But the creation of powerful monsters as some sort of wish fulfillment program is perplexing.  Why are these humans granted great power and told to do what they want, instead of given a specific agenda.  Many, like Grunbeld, Locus, Rakshas, and Ganishka, were exceptional people before the transformation.  We can assume Zodd and Irving were as well.  But some, like the Count, Rosine, the Beheilit Apostle, and probably Wyald weren't exceptional at all.  Most of them are cruel and almost all of them are terrifying to normal people.

I have a couple theories but I wondered what the communities take on this is, as it's never explicitly stated in the manga.

My speculation:

Their purpose is dual in nature.

Their initial purpose is to create misery, suffering and uncertainty in the world.  They give into their own selfish desires and bully puny humans at their hearts content.  People pray for salvation.  After many generations this creates an environment in which the Hawk of Light is desired enough to manifest.  We can speculate that this was specifically the purpose of Ganishka: to create a grave enemy against humanity for Griffith to defeat, to solidify his status as a grand liberator.    

Their second purpose apparently is to become the army of the re-incarnated Griffith.  An invincible force that no army can stand before and who will be devoutly loyal to a God Hand member should he ever fall out of favor with the people.  This could have taken hundreds of years as the apostles appear to be unaffected by age, and we know at least Zodd is 300 years old.    

So what do you think?  Am I way off base?  Or are they just cool bad guys that Miura wanted to include  :iva:

504
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: January 24, 2012, 09:57:26 PM »
Especially not some Super Mario jump.  *sigh*

I'm on board with some of the changes like the enhancement of the Buzuso battle, but this is hardly an "improvement."  The rest of the footage looks pretty great so far though...

505
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: January 24, 2012, 08:46:25 PM »
The more I watch it, the more Griffith's jump onto Guts blade looks ridiculous.  I know he's supposed to be incredibly skilled, but it appears unrealistic and cartoony. 

I know it's absurd to reference realism in a work that has transforming demons, gods that spin man's fate, and a protagonist that wield's a sword the size of a bench, but Berserk has always towed the line to make you believe that these are very human characters with human limitations.  Injuries aren't shrugged off and people don't fight or fly through the air like Dragon Ball Z.  The supernatural in the world of Berserk is completely unexpected to it's inhabitants, and as a result, seems impossible to overcome.  Guts' feats of strength just seems that much more impressive because of this rooted realism.

Let's pray this example in the film is isolated and we don't have Guts and Griffith flying through the air, swinging swords so fast they catch fire, or Judeau throwing knives like a machine gun.  A realistic portrayal of combat with some slight dramatic embellishments is what I hope we get. 

506
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: January 23, 2012, 08:38:17 PM »
Not to be a nitpicker Walter, but this has to be a little out of sequence or else someone's really messing with the timeline.

Check out the picture from row 2, column 5: a dark profile of Guts.  From what we've seen, this really looks like it's a part of the fountain scene with Griffith and Charlotte.  Odd that it's placed here.

Everything else seems to make sense.  It looks like their incorporating Griffith's back story of how he got the Beherit into a flashback after the Zodd battle.  I guess I'm okay with this as it seems natural for Guts to ask about it after it halted Zodd's attack.  Still though, are we watching the first half of the movie just wondering about his weird necklace?  An odd choice but I understand it.

Also a big omission is implied here.  Has anyone seen any indication of the first battle Guts participates in with the Hawks.  The night raid where he's the rear guard?  The lack of footage for it and the movement of the Beherit scene tells me it might be gone or combined with the Black Ram battle.  

507
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: January 23, 2012, 08:02:05 PM »
Well, at least we can now say with a fair amount of certainty that some of the footage in the 15 second promos last year was either unfinished or a prototype for the CG models.  The Zodd's horns and his exit out of the castle are completely different. 

I wonder if the other scene's will be different as well.  Skull Knight, and Casca in the cave might not be accurate representations anymore.  From what I can glean, those scenes will be in the following films though, so we'll have to wait.  The snow duel has been pretty consistent in the promos though.

508
Shootin' the Breeze / Re: Happy Birthday Walter!
« on: November 13, 2011, 10:04:45 PM »
Happy belated Birthday Walter!

509
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: November 08, 2011, 01:51:35 AM »
I apologize for bring this back up but there's an aspect to this assassination topic that doesn't seem to have been addressed.

I can see both sides of the argument.  On the one hand Guts is an impulsive, often reckless warrior with a strong attachment to his personal sword, and is really in over his head with a stealthy assassination.  His only attempt to stay unseen is by wearing a hooded cloak without armor, and by traveling by roof top.  A character like Judeau might've been a better pick for the job as far as being discrete , though we all know Griffith wanted to hide his unsavory side from the rest of the Hawks, and so he chose Guts.  The method Guts chooses in the manga says a lot about his one track mind at the time, and is a springboard for his later character growth.  He even blows off the choice Griffith gives him and treats it like any other order.  So there are many good reasons to keep it the way it the way Miura wrote it at the time.

On the other hand, Guts isn't stupid.  He's specifically instructed by Griffith that he can't leave witnesses or be caught, and for good reason.  It would be disastrous for Griffith if Guts was identified, and it doesn't seem far fetched for Griffith to take measures to avoid being charged with high treason or regicide.  For example, instructing Guts to disguise himself.  To the argument that Guts wasn't famous yet, well I'm not so sure.  Guts and Griffith were the only known people to survive a massacre by Zodd, a legendary warrior.  This caused a lot of gossip and celebrity status for at least Griffith, if not Guts to some degree.  I think you can make a case that Guts or his rather unique giant sword might be recognized (especially after Guts nearly assaulted Julius on the steps when Griffith was slapped.  Bodyguards were present and probably took notice.) 

Is it therefore an unforgivable change to have Guts perform the assassination with something to cover his face, and a non-distinct long sword?  It's not as if he's wearing some elaborate assassin mask; it's just a bandanna to cover his face.  It doesn't alter the method he takes or the sequence of events, but rather makes Guts seem a little less oblivious as to the trouble he could cause for the entire Band of the Hawk by murdering the King's brother and nephew.  He's still stubborn and impulsive by using a big sword to carry it out, and as far as we can tell, he still kills Adonis.   

As far as the argument that Guts is so attached to his sword that he would never, ever use anything else...  Well, he's shown a willingness as the Black Swordsman to use a variety of weapons to deal with the task at hand, including throwing knives, crossbows, and cannons.  This however, could just be evidence of how Guts has grown as a warrior over time.

From my point of view, this is a change that can at least be rationalized quite well, unlike the fact that Guts duels Griffith with his Raider's sword, which implies huge changes with Doldrey.  A change like that undermines many bigger issues, such as the stakes of the battle with Boscogn, Zodd's intervention, plus the loss of symbolism when Guts's sword is severed on his last battle for the Hawks.  I can't judge it until I see how it's all handled, but this change should cause far more concern.

As others have said, I'm going to view the Saga project as an merely an interpretation of Berserk with it's own take on the story.  The same way that everything from The Count of Monte Cristo, Shakespeare, The Three Musketeers, to X-Men, Batman, and Conan have multiple versions.  Some of the changes might suck, some might be genuinely interesting.  I'm not giving it blind faith, but I won't condemn it from the offset either.

The biggest offense though, as Aaz has been sure to point out, is that the Saga was originally announced to be extremely faithful to the Manga.  I just don't consider that to be possible with the run time of three feature films, nor by what we've seen, so I'm just taking the film for what it is: an adaptation that's going to take creative liberties.  While that might not be what a lot of us want, in a way it'll allow some measure of surprise as we watch it versus a paint by numbers 1 to 1 copy of the manga.  No offense intended.   

In the end, I think the '97 anime is going to be the more faithful of the two, despite it's inferior animation quality.  At least it attempts to match most of the manga panels, and to me at least, the darker color palette fits the darker tone of the manga anyway.  My two cents.

510
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: August 31, 2011, 05:29:19 AM »
After looking at the 'Dragon Killer' picture from the convention some more, I think the size of it in comparison to those people might be deceptive.  The guy and girl aren't right next to it, but are several feet closer to the camera.  Might just be a perspective thing.  Anyway, I hope we get some more pictures from the event.  Hopefully they'll release some of the video footage they show there.

One note on the color treatment of those headshot.  While the colors really pop unlike the previous anime, anyone else notice how Casca seems to look much more Caucasian than in any of Miura's depictions?  She's a tad bit tanner than Guts or Griffith in this new anime, but I've always seen her portrayed as nearly Kushan in skin color.

Speaking of which, has Miura ever commented on his intention for this?  No character has ever mistaken her for Kushan, so I doubt that's what it is.

511
Berserk Anime / Re: Berserk Saga Project News
« on: August 22, 2011, 07:52:58 PM »
I have to say...  That script doesn't look very thick.  The typical screenplay for a feature film is between 95 and 125 pages.  Hollywood standard is 1 page = 1 minute of screen time.

Of course there are a lot of variables that might make this point moot.  It's an animated film, therefore it might have an entirely different format.  However I would think this would make the script even more descriptive, and therefore lengthy.  

The fact that it's probably written in Japanese characters would most definitely affect the page count in some way, though I'm not sure if it would make a script appear longer or shorter than an English equivalent.

Anyone seen many animation scripts written in Japanese?  Is there a standard page count for a feature?

512
Berserk Anime / Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« on: July 24, 2011, 06:04:26 AM »
I too, hope the violence won't be too censored.  The lack of gore during the Zodd clip is a bit concerning, though the old screenshot from what appears to be the battle with the Holy Iron Chain Knights gives me some hope for dismemberments.  I could deal with violence portrayed like the 97 anime for much of the Golden Age, but once the Dragon Slayer comes into the picture, well... a sharpened iron bench is going to leave a bigger mark.

Speaking of which, I'd be surprised if the film didn't open with some type of nod to the Black Swordsman.  Otherwise it's going to be really jarring when we see the supernatural pop up with Zodd, and the Eclipse.  Even the Dragon Slayer is a bit of a stretch if it's not introduced early on.  Audiences need the groundwork to be set, otherwise they'll feel like they've been promised one movie and given another.  The 97 anime addresses it with the first episode, though half-assed, and everyone I've shown it to still think the Eclipse comes completely out of nowhere.   I'm sure someone is doing Quality Control to make sure this isn't an issue the second time around.

513
Berserk Anime / Re: Casualties of a Berserk Adaptation
« on: July 21, 2011, 03:12:54 AM »
I agree that a lot of these area's will probably be addressed in one form or another considering that they are likely going to condense each film to feel like a self contained movie.  Hopefully any censorship that exists won't actually cut content, but just show it in a less explicit way.  I'd be upset if we lost Guts rape and most of Wyald because both serve important roles in the story.  The rape's importance is fairly obvious for Guts development and his relationship with both Griffith and Casca, as both have dealt and will deal with rape.

Wyald does a tremendous amount that I don't think is immediately apparent.  Aside from foreshadowing the supernatural event that's around the corner, he provides some actual stakes to Griffith's escape from Wyndham.  Think about it, Guts has killed a hundred men at this point and easily beaten Silat twice.  The Bakiraka and even a legion of knights like in the 97 anime aren't much of a challenge.  But Guts has never beaten an Apostle, let alone an apostle with an army so the audience really doesn't know if they'll win.  In addition, the difficulty of the fight with Wyald, a single apostle, makes the Eclipse that much more despairing.  I'll be pissed if he's not represented in some way.  

As far as the politics in the middle of the golden age, I expect a lot will be cut.  As mentioned previously, a lot is in there to remind a reader who's been reading every other month what happened many issues ago.  I expect the dialogue to be streamlined and characters like Laban and Owen will probably be diminished.  I could even see them simplifying the assassination of Julius and the Queen by combining aspects of both.  

The sex scenes between Griffith and Charlotte and Guts and Casca and Femto and Casca will definitely be less explicit.  I really doubt we'll be seeing so many angles and positions, and really, we don't need to (though an argument could be made for the rape of Casca).  

I hope Silat makes it in there, and he probably will if they plan on going through the Kushan invasion.  It would be stupid not to introduce him early on.  If they don't, the Bakiraka on the escape from Wyndham probably will show up.  Don't know about both though.  Honestly I could live without the Bakiraka in the sewers if it meant keeping something else.

I've mentioned it on the big thread and PM, but I think they might even ADD more Boscogn or Gennon.  The 97 anime did, and I think for good reason (though not super effective in their attempt).  The early Golden age stories don't have any face for the 'bad guys' of Tudor aside from Adon, and I think we can all agree that he wasn't too imposing for the Hawks.  To make Griffith's rise look especially impressive, and to make Doldrey feel like the big battle that it should, I wouldn't be surprised if they involved either Boscogn or Gennon earlier on and beefed up their status as villains.    

514
Berserk Anime / Re: New Berserk animation project confirmed
« on: July 13, 2011, 07:38:58 PM »
Hey Skullknight forum.  First time poster, long time lurker.  I've decided to chance it and throw my hat into this heated debate as I'm a HUGE berserk fan, but I also understand the difficulties of adaptation.

First off, I'm excited at the prospect of Berserk being interpreted as a film, but I fully expect that it will be it's own animal.  I think there's a strange notion that adapting a book into a feature film equates to creating a carbon copy of the source material.  Not only would this be an exercise in redundancy, it is often an impossibility due to the differences between the mediums.  I do agree with Aazealh though, the press releases should never have set up such unreasonable expectations by claiming that it will be extremely faithful.  I think it will be Berserk, just not a panel by panel recreation.

If this film is done well, it should capture the tone, character, and story of Berserk, but I would be really surprised if there weren't alterations made to condense or expand sections to make it more effective for film.  For example, I'm sure the action scenes in it will be bigger and more complex than the manga, because that's where animation excels.  And the dialogue will likely be boiled down to the most succinct interpretation.  What works well on the page can be long winded on screen and even downright unnatural sounding.  Look to the original anime for plenty of examples of this. 

There may even be a reordering or combining of events.  And honestly, changes in this manner are all okay with me as long as it does Berserk justice.  The experience of reading a comic is inherently going to be different than watching it on the screen.  You can pour over the details in a book whereas a film has an immediacy to it.  Movies such as Oldboy, Fight Club, Lord of the Rings, V for Vendetta, and even Watchmen all made changes that made them effective for the screen while retaining the spirit of the book. 

I'd hate to have a perfect adaption of Berserk that felt meandering, long winded, and oddly paced.  Aazealh you mention that the volumes don't have the natural rhythm of a film if broken up as a trilogy, so wouldn't you rather they make alterations to tell the story as effectively as possible in film form? 

BTW, here's a great article from a respected screenwriter on the subject of adaptation:

http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp27.Adaptive.Behavior.html

Something else to consider, and I know I'm going to be crucified by some of you, but hear me out:  Some changes to the story could actually be improvements.   

I don't know for sure, but it feels like Miura had the broad strokes of the story planned out, but that he was making up the details as he went along (I know, I know, blasphemy).  As a result, a lot of elements just kind of 'show up' rather than have a proper set up that could make the story more effective.  By adapting the series with this type of hindsight, improvements might be made, to what I consider weak points.

Examples:

-Chuder and General Boscogn: The war between the two kingdoms is pretty vague until halfway through the Golden age, with no real stakes for either side.  In fact we don't even know who's side Guts or the Hawks are on until the Black Rams, I believe.  The Hawks are undefeatable, but they mainly fight against a faceless horde.  Or guys like Adon who are essentially comic relief villains.  In other words, the villains provide no real challenge to define how amazing the Hawks are. 

By the time Miura does introduce General Boscogn, a rival military leader to Griffith, and rival warrior to Guts, we kill him in the same battle.  If he had been introduced much earlier in the Golden Age as a dreaded enemy who was unstoppable in his conquest of Midland, the Hawks victory might have had more impact.  As he is now, he feels like an afterthought.

-The Black Dog Knights: If they were the second most powerful force for Midland, some earlier interaction between the two forces, to create rivalry or competition might have been an effective set up.  The early contrast between the barbaric Black dogs would also make the Hawks shine against other mercenaries.

-Pippin: I know he's the strong silent type, but he really has little to no character, yet is treated as a major player.  He could play a more important role of some kind.

-Rickert: Other than surviving the Eclipse, and the hero worship he gives to Guts and Griffith, he's really pretty useless as a character in the Golden age.

-Skull Knight: He just... shows up outta nowhere.  If he was mentioned in a legend or fairytale earlier it might not have felt so random.

-Small stuff: Even Guts learning to throw knives from Judeau would have been a nice nod toward what's to come.  It's mentioned after everyone's dead, but it would've been more effective had it been shown during a dialogue moment.

I apologize for such a long first post and I realize my opinions are probably going to be unpopular among a lot of you.  I just feel like alterations to the material are not necessarily bad.  Nor do they mean that this is suddenly not Berserk.  It's a new perspective on the same story.

Of course they could do an absolutely atrocious job and create a nonsensical film that betrays the characters and story.  That's always a distinct possibility.  But until I know the direction they're taking it a little bit more, I'm going to reserve my judgment.  With Miura on board with it and all the effort that I'm seeing in it so far, it might very well be a quality film.

We'll see what tomorrow's trailer brings though...

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