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Messages - Griffith

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Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« on: August 17, 2017, 08:53:48 PM »
The beginning scenes contained some of the best dialogue/acting/characterization of the season for what that's worth, and did a lot to fill some of the previous episode's holes, and the action and interaction it brought between some principals helped to establish more believable connections that were surely lacking before. The problem is that foundation should be there going in for it to have real impact, not after the fact. I still enjoyed the action for the pure spectacle, and it's not even so much how unbelievable everything is now, because technically it has always been pretty unbelievable, it's fantasy after all, but they're cutting so many narrative corners it's not grounding the story in anything, even within the made up rules of its own world, so that it doesn't have the heft to earn our suspension of disbelief.

Update: I just watched the end of Hardhome again and HOLY SHIT. Now that was something. I mean, it took a whole season of nothing happening to give it that impact, but it worked! =)

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« on: August 17, 2017, 01:44:46 PM »
Well, I watched the latest (intentional?) leak of the next episode by HBO itself and, without spoiling anything, if you thought the last episode was playing fast and loose with logistics it was really just preparing you for what's to come when you basically see the fast travel in real time. Anyway, it's also a lot of fun, contains the best characterization of this entire season, as well as half a dozen moments that would be a highlight of any other. Though, because of this, more than any other episode, it painfully highlights what an abridged season this actually is, because there was easily enough material in this episode alone for two or three more (hell, in the past they'd have spent the whole season in one of these locations and not even paid it off like this). You can see the arc of the season by now like any other, it's just missing a lot of the character "filler" that, you know, would make it seem to matter.

So, there's really no reason other than apathy/laziness that they couldn't have paced things out better for more believable plot/character development. These truncated final seasons are the second worst idea these guys have ever had after Confederate (they mercifully cancel that yet, or is it now being performed live on TV? =). They're basically fucking up the biggest and best thing they'll ever do at the finish line so they can start working on something nobody wants that'll be the end of them. It'd be like if Metallica announced they were truncating Master of Puppets or The Black Album so they could get started on Load or jump straight to St. Anger. Or if George Lucas cancelled Return of the Jedi so he could release Episode I sooner. Not a great plan.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« on: August 14, 2017, 04:30:02 PM »
To put a bow on why this mad rush is bad beyond nitpicking logistics, everything is happening so fast that it's not actually developing meaningfully. Reunions happen, but so quickly and plot purposefully they don't matter, interesting characters are thrown together, but they barely or don't interact so it's not interesting, scenes which should be incredibly impactful aren't because they aren't given that breadth to have any impact. There's no interpersonal conversations, so there's no relationships, or even characters at a certain point, and therefore no meaning (the closest we came to something like that this episode was with a CGI dragon =). Basically, this episode was motion without action and did a great disservice to everything it was in such a rush to try and set in motion. It's become a bad show not even the actors can save because the script gives them nothing to work with but one plot point to the next, which we can now plainly see like strings moving everyone along.

Now, the last episode was just fine under these conditions so maybe it'll bounce back or not matter now that everyone's set on course for the last two episodes of the season, when it'll hopefully focus on the major conflict to come, but the way this episode cast aside the meaning of these happenings for the sake of executing them as quickly as possible was certainly distressing. It's really like they've gone from adapting novels to wiki pages.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 14, 2017, 02:24:24 PM »
In any case, there seems to be way too much still unexplained for it to all be resolved naturally in a four-episode span. And while I wouldn't normally expect Lynch to explain things, he seems to have made it his business to open so many new threads in this series, I do expect some of them to be resolved.

Yeah, the series appears to be doing no winding down. It actually spent all of last night introducing or explaining new elements and felt like it's just getting started, so there's no way it's all coming together in the next four. Lynch is either planning on more someday or planning on leaving it that way, and us with more questions than when we started. :ganishka:

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« on: August 14, 2017, 02:20:36 PM »
(Update for not double posting)

Well that was a good laugh of an episode. I feel like it shifted into another totally different fantasy story. And that final "V" formation towards the end... Go Ducks!

Yeah, I've been pretty forgiving or good at ignoring it, but if people hated the fast travel in previous episodes this one sets records and doesn't even pretend to fudge numbers on time passed. See Tyrion go from the Reach to Dragonstone, to King's Landing, and back again in minutes of screentime! See the amazing Jon Snow go from south of Winterfell at Dragonstone to The Wall north of it in the time it takes Littlefinger to pass a note! :ganishka:

Forget the revelation that he's apparently the legitimate crown Prince and King or all that messianic resurrection stuff, it's evident that he's the Prince that was Promised because he can teleport. :griffnotevil:

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 14, 2017, 02:02:15 PM »

...I'm beginning to think that Sarah is the mask for "The Experiment" the mother figure that bore BOB into the physical plane. And that Naido is the current form of the being that The Fireman created.

Yeah, the water cooler talk today was whether she was the girl that ate the Bob bug.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 14, 2017, 05:13:08 AM »
Non sequitur impressions of Ep 14:

Took this long to get to Jack Rabbit's Palace, eh? Oh well, it was an action packed episode after the slow and plodding nature of the past couple. A visit to the White Lodge. The giant = the fireman confirmed. Andy's empty head was like a vessel for whatever he's been programmed to do.

Good ep, and minus MacLachlan, it's strange that they couldn't spread some of this material out in the past two dumping grounds. I think Andy is more than just an empty vessel and the perfect choice for communication with the white lodge; he's purely good and sees things differently, like with the map in S2. Makes sense in a weird way that he'd basically get it all laid out for him while nobody else could remember/comprehend; he'll get it in a purely good vs evil sense. A great moment in law enforcement history!

The girl who appeared in the forest, Naido (according to credits), is the same who helped Cooper escape, but fell off that building. Her mother was the terrifying thing banging on the door. I wonder if the creature that appeared in the Box is her doppelganger?

Didn't think we'd see her again, let alone in the world; it's all coming back to Twin Peaks. Unfortunately it looks like it's going to take about 17 episodes to even get the principals together back there.

Finally, was Sarah Palmer always a being from the Lodge, or was she somehow turned over the years into ... whatever that was in the bar. She opened her face like Laura opened hers.

My only thought was she seems even scarier than Evil Coop and has the potential to be the big bad of the whole thing. Then again, it could just be "a real mystery" or piece of the puzzle that ultimately goes nowhere. In any case, as she warned I wouldn't fuck with her though.

I was glad to see Gordon and the gang figuring things out and getting closer to the real Coop, somewhat mitigated by him not appearing at all. Also, Evil Coop behind Dougie confirmed? If Janey-E is Diane's sister, that's one too many connections/coincidences. Still not sure where her loyalties ultimately lie, she seems to be playing both sides, but she's definitely working with with Evil Cooper despite their differences that she won't discuss, if only because that's the only Cooper she's got right now (unless she truly hates the real Cooper for some reason).

What's up with Hulk hand, he going to destroy Evil Coop by beating him at arm wrestling? =)

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« on: August 09, 2017, 04:31:14 PM »
Well, if you want more critical Thrones-bashing, here's a rundown of the previous episode and season so far between me and a friend. To differentiate his thoughts from mine I've given him a Carcus emot avatar and put his words in italics, while my words are standard format and preceeded by Griffith, of course. Oh, and before we begin...


:carcus: A pretty good episode, even a great episode when compared to most of the others. The dragons finally delivered, earlier than anyone expected. I'm glad Jaime survived (I think) because he still needs to tell Cersei Olenna's final message. There was too much Littlefinger and not enough natural dialogue from Dany, which is par for the course. Davos is still the best character.

 :griffnotevil: I think the consensus joke everybody made during that episode and after is that clearly Jon and Davos drew those cave paintings themselves. The after episode "explanation" was also comedy gold, "spirals are a big deal in a lot of culture's so no reason they wouldn't be here to." And apparently no reason they are; you sound like YOU have no idea what they're about! Wonderful.

 :carcus: I'm not sure it's even worth the armchair anthropologizing to be honest. The set designers aren't who I look to for thematic lore when I watch this show.

 :griffnotevil: But those quotes are from the showrunners/head writers! Same with all the usual, "This happy reunion is a happy moment for them/The sad part is sad so we really wanted sad music playing." These glib motherfuckers should clearly do a show about a topic as complex and thorny as American white supremacy.

 :carcus: I was further frustrated by Bran, who has become a narrative spoiler that the show runners don't know how to deal with.

 :griffnotevil: Yeah, I did enjoy his Littlefinger teasing, but it's all frustratingly indirect, and it doesn't even mitigate his status as a spoiler because his mere stoic presence signals, "It's all going to be alright in the end." Would be much better if he was sounding the alarm even louder than Jon to preserve any possibility of a future. He knows Jon "Conner" Snow will make it alright.

 :carcus: Yeah, and the other possibility, that he's seen the coming doom and knows people have no chance for survival, means that his composure is inhuman, rendering him to plot device status and making him not longer an actual character. He's always sort of tended to that, even from the first episode, when his attempted murder gets the plot going, but now that he's written to be not even really a person it feels like a waste of screen time.

 :griffnotevil: In defense of the show, I don't think he grew into the part other than growing about 4 feet taller. His nasal yelling of "DONT HUURT MY FREEENDS, WAAAAHHH" during the middle seasons did not impress, so turning him into an actual non-personality might have been the best course aside from recasting, "Hey, Bran is back, but he now looks conspicuously like Max Von Sydow!"

 :carcus: Hahaha, good point. Perhaps the character plotting on the show is generally hollow, cheaply-motivated, misanthropic, and ultimately pointless. I'd point to Theon as a prime example.

 :griffnotevil: I re-watched the dragon battle: When the Dothraki first ride through the flames of the dragon fire... music and imagery very reminiscent of Diablo II. Very cool.

 :carcus: That specific shot was great, the horses charging through the fire were nightmarish. I can definitely see the D2 resemblance.

 :griffnotevil: Also, Jaime is painfully heroic for the villain's right hand enabler, I don't see how they rectify that besides him dying tragically for a terrible cause or by him killing the love of his life (who I don't think feels the same, for anything).

 :carcus: I've been thinking about that, and I think they may just have him kill Cersei ("it's like poetry, it rhymes") in the Red Keep throne room. He is himself an irredeemable character though, and like I said a couple weeks ago his motivation as a prisoner of incestual love isn't exactly compelling, so I don't think they'll be able to give him any closure that actually satisfies. It'll come off as either anemic or hamfisted or unjustified in terms of his characterization. Like what, are we supposed to believe that THIS is the season where he realizes Cersei needs killing? Not immediately after she catalyzed their last remaining child's suicide, but when she... makes an alliance with Euron?

 :griffnotevil: The best ending would be her killing him and him realizing in a very direct fashion the error of hisways.

 :carcus: If they do that I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 :griffnotevil: Yep, more likely they do the Mad Queen/Kingslayer redux, which I can buy if she's going to somehow kill everyone and basically do the White Walkers work. I'm guessing everyone but Cersei will slowly turn their attention to the threat in the north and Jaime will be trapped, either killed or forced to kill. Best scenario for him is to kill her and then himself and lie down dead with her. There's no winning.

 :carcus: Likewise, I'm thoroughly sick of Dany's kneel before Zod attitude, and because of Cersei's machinations I'm not even sure it's supposed to mirror the Mad King or not. Are they both mirrors of him? Why are they both mirrors of him if so? Why not just Dany? The scripting comes across as very muddled on this point.

 :griffnotevil: Yeah, she's pretty repellently entitled, especially in contrast to Jon, who clearly doesn't care about titles, already calls her "grace," and very kindly tries to explain that there's simply no politically viable path for him to "bend the knee." He'd immediately become a former King and functionally useless to her. But no matter, "Bend the knee because I freed the slaves or something!" I actually like Cercei better, at least she's not high on her own supply, she knows she's bad, but "fuck 'em."

 :carcus: Cersei is certainly conscious of how awful she is, as revealed in a bunch of scenes (like her torture of Sister Unella, etc). I was really hoping the show runners would stay away from adding another narratively uncontrollable element to the plot,i.e. Dany's possible inherited mental illness, and maybe they aren't - but like I said the writing is unclear on this point. Cersei has an impossible goal of killing all her enemies, which means killing everyone she's not related to and some people who are, and she's leaning into it, which is at least justifiable plotting.It's painfully obvious that Jon and Dany will get married and tidily solve the problem of him not wanting to pledge allegiance.

 :griffnotevil: I find it odd Jon is still there, I figured he'd trundle on north after getting the ok on the glass. He's probably going to teleport there for a battle and back again by the start of next season. They've taken so many storytelling shortcuts I think they literally need him in both places at once!

 :carcus: Yeah, I think they're keeping him around to lay the groundwork for their eventual marriage, even though such groundwork is totally unnecessary in the context of how marriage is treated in the show.

 :griffnotevil: They should have just stuck to the 10 episode format. A few extra hours for these things to believably develop and unfold wouldn't have hurt. Well, he's already become her most trusted adviser, which is only the 2nd biggest vote of confidence she gave him after going into a cave alone with him where he could have dispatched her immediately, since he's technically a rogue monarch.

 :carcus: Why did they even go to a seven episode format?

 :griffnotevil: "This is all the time we needed to tell the story we wanted to" = "We are completely out of gas/ideas; here's the gist of it and we can barely manage that at this point" The problem is, like you say they're trying to lay some groundwork for the hookup to have meaning for fanboys and girls, but that won't fly because they've literally known each other for 20 minutes of screen time. After 60 hours, that's not going to feel earned, or like they ever really met properly in the terms of the show's own precedent. Next week the dragons will bark at Jon before rolling over and wagging their tails while Dany looks on from a balcony googly eyed, "There's just something about him... *long sigh*" Otherwise the closest thing to some kind of development will be Jon sort of resembles her old boyfriend, so he's her type and it wouldn't be a total drag as far as arranged marriages go?

 :carcus: Hahaha god, that's about right for the level of subtlety we've come to expect from the show. Even taking it on its own terms though, which is generous, the show doesn't require hamfisted courtship. It's not even narratively justified: it would be a political marriage aimed at solving political problems. Certainly that's enough, and viewers don't need to be spoonfed maudlin romance.

 :griffnotevil: But they want it! They want the "joking" memes to not be jokes anymore and for it to be Beauty and the Beast, and the showrunners know this and are going to force it even though they don't even have time to do it right. Good thing George RR Martin will fill in the gaps with three 2,000 page books sometime by the end of this century.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 08, 2017, 05:55:18 PM »
This is in response to Walter and Griffith's query about the show unfolding through nonlinear storytelling ex: in part 13 Bobby tells Ed and Norma that he just found something related to his father which would have been in Part 11. During the day.

I did notice that! But I assumed it was just supposed to be earlier that day, and if we'd already seen day and night pass with Bobby in other scenes (felt like it), it was...

Looked like a simple continuity problem to me.

This, rather than evidence of some humongous in-story temporal shifts. I mean, given the other subject matter and the implied significance of the location of Twin Peaks it's certainly possible something strange could be happening, but are there other examples to support this besides one weirdly placed scene in the latest episode? Counterpoint: David Lynch is a 71 year old man putting together an 18 hour movie with an editing department 17 names deep. Mistakes could certainly happen, or like Eluvei said, he might have just consciously made the choice to move scenes around for other creative reasons.

Just like the sudden mid-episode wardrobe changes that people keep obsessing about.


Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 08, 2017, 03:30:58 PM »
...Here is another thing to mull post finale : nothing is in chronological order scene wise on The RETURN.

Could you unpack that a bit..? Clearly there are many scenes that are in chronological order, or the story would make no sense.

Yeah, off the top of my head everything in fact appears to be in chronological order. The weirdest anomaly coming to mind is Evil Coop, or someone resembling him, appearing in the box when he should have been out in the world already, and them never mentioning seeing the real deal on film later.

So, VQ, are we talking certain disparate scenes in different locales are actually happening simultaneously or out of order of appearance? That's certainly possible, but there also appears to be plenty of cause and effect between these scenes/locations, and not much of a case to be made as to how or why they'd be appearing out of order unless you've got a big picture theory at hand?

Anyway, here's essentially the same report but two different takeaways:

'Twin Peaks' Likely Won't Be Revived Again at Showtime

‘Twin Peaks’: No Talks For Another Season But “Door’s Always Open To David Lynch,” Showtime Bosses Say

The gist either way is that it wasn't a big hit in traditional viewers but that it got Showtime plenty of new subscribers, including me! Overall, it seems to me like they're looking at the glass half full but it wasn't a smash or anything. I'd say "not that it matters," but it actually does if Lynch ever wanted to do more on the same scale (I'd think the best compromise in that case would be less episodes, but here's hoping everything will be perfectly satisfying after the next 5 =).

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 08, 2017, 02:43:14 AM »
Griffith, I don't understand why you're taking Twin Peaks this seriously.

Hmmmm, I didn't think I was taking it too seriously, beyond judging and respecting it as entertainment and a good faith effort at something, for which I give the first half of the season high marks. Also, to be fair, it set a pretty serious tone to start and despite all the weird and silly stuff since what's bugging me is it just hasn't been compelling the last couple episodes. I'm fine with anything as long as it's engaging rather than boring. Though I do expect them to have Agent Cooper eventually show up on the Agent Cooper show, even more so if it really doesn't matter and there's nothing bigger in mind (if not, I'll gladly accept a better alternative, but Dougie won't cut it for 18 hours). I gave up on the Saul show for the same reason, because there was no "Saul show" and what they offered instead stretched the limits of nuance, minimalism, and entertainment. After 2 seasons of circling around a vague point, going on 3, it just wasn't enteraining anymore; there's no drama at that point.

Contrast that with my praise of Game of Thrones, a show I'm certainly not taking seriously at this point, but which is entertaining as hell! So yeah, if the whole thing is just a pointless goof, at least goof off with the character everyone wants to see, but I hope there's some higher entertainment in mind as well. Why wouldn't I?

Also,  I agree with everything Wally added about the series, old and new.

Shootin' the Breeze / Re: Forum nostalgia
« on: August 07, 2017, 05:26:16 PM »
1) How did you get to this forum?

Via BSOM (though I think I posted to both first simultaneously), via Berserk, via a high school friend recommending it and loaning me VCDs with chinese subs! :ganishka: I think the first time I saw it subbed in English was in some very classy Realplayer files.

2) Do you have some funny/interesting anecdotes?

Those days when SKuLL L0rD almost felt alive. :badbone:

3) Do you miss another user that is not in the forum anymore?

I'll go with a couple that haven't been mentioned yet: Ranemaka, who was quite active in the scene back in the day with his own translation site I did some (bad) graphic work for, but whose legacy is now probably starting the youtube thread. Also, because I obviously have a soft spot for renegades with hearts of gold and no one else will say so, Werealmad. :carcus:

4) Do you miss something in particular of the old days regarding forum stuff? (Idk how to express it...Maybe you miss a chatbox or an old forum style)

That carefree innocence, man. :griffnotevil:

5) Did you make friendships here that go beyond the forum? I mean, if someday when Berserk ends and this forum closes or you just leave, would you keep in touch with someone you met here?

Yep, there's a few members I've talked to beyond the purview of Berserk and the board (IncantatioN, VH Bob, Olivier once or twice). Most prominently, as Wally said, we (and Cronus, add him on the missed list =) hung out for a couple days back east (saw X2, talked about life at the park, went to a party, I dressed stupid, etc), and we (him, me and Aaz) used to converse all the time well beyond Berserk. Unfortunately, I just don't spend much time chatting with anyone anymore save for this place. Also, among my regrets is that I had an opportunity to meet Aaz, Grail, Gobs, and Dar Link when Aaz was in the bay area on business but I couldn't make the trip for... personal reasons (let's just say I'll cite this in my divorce papers if it ever comes to it =). Sorry guys, and especially Aaz who I hope didn't take it personally that I couldn't bridge the last 300 miles when he came 5,500. >_<

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 07, 2017, 01:38:56 PM »
Well, the next one might blow your minds. Why? Sky serien in Germany showed the next episode by mistake.

At least "Twin Peaks Leaks" makes for a good headline, and some of that sweet leak publicity to hopefully pull it out of this second half slump. I wish they'd just add it on my Amazon/Showtime account now.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]
« on: August 07, 2017, 04:36:37 AM »
Anybody see leaked episode 4? Holy mother of God

I heard and so I saved it for high quality viewing and I'm glad I did! Call a doctor if your Throne bone lasts more than four hours tonight.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 07, 2017, 04:21:59 AM »
So, that ending song. That was David Lynch making fun of James, right? .... Right?

I took it as him personally making fun of me, like mocking us. The second they announced him I was in denial and when they showed him with that same yellow guitar my wife and I looked at each other and said, "Oh fuck me!" It even had the same inexplicable bass and drum parts come in despite there being no other players, yet it had the, creepy, backup singers for Maddy and Donna, recreating all that's wrong with it perfectly! AND THAT VOICE, THAT SAME VOICE! It couldn't only be more absurd coming out of 50-something James and Lynch knows it! :mozgus:

Welcome Griff, to the glory of watching Twin Peaks LIVE!  :ganishka:


I think I picked a bad time to catch up; wish I'd been here for the episode 8 event. Also, I know you haven't followed it, but watch the last half tonight's Game of Thrones for contrast. :ganishka: It's not fair since that show had 60+ episodes, and plenty of stinkers among them, to reach this point, but it also has more episodes remaining to actually pay things off. It'd be a shame if everything is basically being deferred until the, hopefully extended, finale. It'd be season 2-esque if it ultimately goes down that way.

Anyway, whoo boy... another episode where I'm counting the minutes rather than being engaged in each scene. 15  minutes of arm rasslin, 15 minutes of Tom Sizemore antics. 5 minutes of James' song. Bye bye most of the episode.

Yeah, it was like episode 12.5, though an improvement still.More Coop, evil or otherwise, is always better, but yeah, the arm wrestling went on forover, and though the tension actually got to me to the point my heart was pounding, the result was a bit anticlimactic (you knew he'd win impressively, but I was expecting him to rip the guy's arm right off =). Otherwise, my biggest takeaway is real Coop is actually making no tangible progress and despite the time spent they're dragging this out to the point it's going to go from feeling earned to arbitrary and short shrift when he wakes up... IF he wakes up. Surprise, no Harry OR Coop in the new TP! :magni:

Still, some revelations. We know a bit more about the ring's powers. It seems to bind souls to the Lodge. That tracks with what happened with Laura (which also prevented Bob from possessing her).

Hey Ray, you probably should have followed orders about putting the ring on Evil Coop, especially whem things got weird. I wonder if EC/Bob is unkillable/unstoppable unless banished to the lodge. It's certainly not looking fair if and when the Coops have a showdown.

Also, I wonder about Audrey's scenes now, after her thought about not feeling herself. Last we heard from her, she was in a bank explosion... Hmm...
...After tonight's episode I am fully convinced that all the Audrey Horne scenes are of a still very comatose Audrey living her worse nightmare of being married to a man as controlling as her father.

This makes sense with the way the scenes go round and round with her wanting to leave but ultimately staying...
But them making sense isn't a strong argument for what's what on this show. Also, her dad turned into a real mensch by the end of season 2 and she had made her peace with him. Also, who birthed Richard then, Audrey via coma, Donna, or Johnny?

BOB is one slippery dude in evading being caught by The Black Lodge. The looping sound Sarah Palmer's tv made sounds exactly like the record player sound in season 2 preceding BOB's carnage so I figure next week is the 10.1 episode.

I was so hoping for something to happen then, a crazy vision of Laura ala Gordon, the horse, or some Leland/Bob/black lodge invasion but no such luck. I was hoping this week's episode was to capitalize on the last by blowing our minds, but now I have no such expectation, "fool me once..." So, basically, now Lynch has me right where he wants me. =)

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 06, 2017, 06:19:02 AM »
No time for a proper reply at the moment but:


BTW, I don't know if this has already been shared, but in my Twin Peaks wiki deep dives (including the alternate "International" pilot where they solve the case in the first episode and Bob dies[!!!]) I found this vintage SNL Twin Peaks sketch with a downright all-star cast from their 90's heyday; even the non-speaking extra is a legend if you recognize him:

Clearly the writers were genuine fans and knew the show intimately even though they got the killer wrong (not the point anyway). It also inadvertently foreshadows Coop's future this season! :guts:

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 05, 2017, 07:01:50 AM »
Updated at bottom.

10 in check in:

So, I have conflicted feelings at this point, first about Evil Coop and his survival (I was both sad to see him go before a confrontation with the real Coop and sad to see him revived because now real Coop is still in danger and his oppontant is that much more formidable =), and I'm having a hard time thinking of a better Dougie theory than Evil Coop somehow making him from himself (maybe as little as a palm would do =); considering he's working with the people trying to kill Dougie, it'd be a pretty big coincidence if he didn't plan it this way (but stranger things have happened). Also, say it ain't so, Diane! I hope she's just so dedicated to Coop that she even helps his Evil Dopplganger but will switch back once he returns (unless she already feels scorned).

My favorite bit of recent business from "Dougie's" world has been his checkup (where they didn't check his head!?), the revelation that he's in much better shape, and Naomi Watts subsequently having her way with him and Coop's pure delight. Better than coffee even, huh!?

Also looking forward to them getting another hit on Coop's prints and DNA and comparing them to Evil Coop, I just hope they can reach him in time (when it looked like EC was dead for a moment, that would have been an elegant switcharoo). Though, speaking of Dougie, I'm now past the halfway mark, and while I appreciate that the arc and focus of the show IS Cooper's journey back (much like finding Laura's killer was the fuel for the first run), I'm still going to feel cheated if we don't get some quality Coop time in the last half of this thing after his return. It better not be in the 11th hour.

Hmmm, I feel like there's something else notable worth mentioning... can't quite put my finger on it... OH YEAH, so Bob was born from a nuclear bomb acid trip that begat a George Romero movie, and Laura Palmer is interdimensional Superman/Jesus and they're destined to faceoff again ala Superman IV! At least that was my understanding of the episode, which I can only otherwise describe as... "What the Hell!?" I mean, there's tons more to say, but I'll save that conversation for when I'm fully caught up.

I genuinely believe it to be some of the best art ever made, with elements and details so profound that are mostly missed in first watching and only become clear by putting more thought and view into it.
I just wish that in season 3 there wasn't so much time wasted on crap like Jacobi's shit-digging shovels and boring conspiracy rants.

I'm confused, I thought that WAS the brilliant art! :ganishka:

Seriously, I've only seen a couple of those segments so far, but is it really more egregious than half the shenanigans in season 2? Season 3, while definitely lacking some of the original's charms, is way more focused... well, save for the 3 minute bar sweeping scenes, music videos, and/or 10 minute music visualization origin stories. You know, profoundly brilliant art. =)

P.s FWWM missing scenes are a must watch.

Damn, I remember this coming out a few years ago but forgot about it until it came up here; I've got more work to do! :puck:


I'm all caught up, on the show and the thread! Ep 12 was indeed trying save for a couple of quality Sarah scenes, but at least I was prepared so it wasn't that bad. I'm more disappointed by the lack of progress (I knew Walter wasn't just feigning ignorance for my benefit; nothing's happened! =) and the fact time is running out, which I'm sure you're all feeling and therefore had much different expectations going in. Like I said, if we don't get a decent amount of Cooper quality time I'll be pissed. I'd like to see him take over and turn everything on its head, but it seems more like we're in this for the long haul (we still have Tom Sizemore to deal with, ugh). Though ep 11 was fun, particularly the culminating dinner scene that was some kind of brilliant right through the credits, and the closest we've come to Cooper genuinely sounding like himself again and not merely through repetition, "Damn fine." So close! SNAP OUT OF IT, COOP!

About episode 12 and Lynch's pace in general, I feel like before this episode Lynch had used the season's pace, particularly the lingering, to great effect setting up the audience and coloring our mood and disposition (even, or especially, if it's bad) to receiving something next. I don't think he's punishing us or showing who's boss, there's usually a purpose and a payoff at work, though this is the first time I can recall him using a whole episode to that effect (unless we count episodes 10-16 of season 2 =). Or, this one just sucked/came together poorly. Anyway, if it's the former then episode 13 should hopefully blow our minds instead of making us want to blow chunks.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Movies you've recently watched
« on: August 04, 2017, 10:22:39 PM »
Delta's review is actually one of the kindest I've read, it otherwise sounds like a complete disaster. It's really too bad they didn't just follow The Gunslinger as many have suggested, but of course not. Like Grail pointed out, it's very much how nobody has the good sense to just adapt the BS arc. Anyway, bummer, The Dark Tower would have been way better off as an HBO series or something if Westworld didn't get there first (and it didn't, DT has been in production hell forever). It's funny, film adaptations used to be the ultimate status milestone if nothing else, now it's almost an insult, "Not good enough to be a TV series?" :ganishka:

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 03, 2017, 08:38:28 PM »
I didn't think of it like a cliffhanger, as much as a dark ending.

Sure turned out that way, but I assume it would have continued from there had the show not been cancelled? Now, I don't know how much of that was due to Frost & Lynch tiring of the network process, the declining ratings and response, or some combination, but it's more happenstance than the plan, right? Obviously Lynch was still interested in that world since he made the movie.

Also, I think Fire Walk With Me gave fans a different kind of closure to the series, such that most weren't rabid for a return.

Yeah, even not having finished the second season yet I could tell it was supposed provide a bit of a cathartic, full-circle sort of spiritual closure to cap it off. I didn't like the relative lack of Coop, though it was cool to get a focus on and more complete picture of Laura's side of things.

Yep, and you might already know but here are just a few of the hiccups purely on the human capital side of things: Log Lady (Catherine Coulson) died shortly before the premiere, along with Albert (Miguel Ferrer).

Awww, yeah, she did NOT look well, and I didn't think it was just for the show. I heard about poor Miguel.

The Man From Another Place (Michael Anderson) refused to be in it

He's alive and said NO!? My wife and I macabrely assumed the little man was dead before we even fired up the new season. We were conversely, though pleasantly, surprised by the perseverance of the giant since we guessed he might not be around either. We're just pessimistic jerks I guess.

along with Harry Truman (Michael Ontkean) though his on slightly better terms — he's just done with acting.

I've read disputed stories on this (Ontkean perhaps being keen but it falling through), particularly what I just read about Mr. Anderson's accusations against Lynch, which, while he's clearly bitter, sound plausible; Lynch would rather spend money on names like Naomi Watts, Forster, and Laura Dern than Anderson and Ontkean... but it doesn't seem like he wouldn't have money leftover enough for them, unless that's how they felt or he really didn't care, "Take it or leave it." In any case, I like Lynch's response to Anderson and his solution: "[Lynch] did talk about Anderson’s final line in the original series, “When you see me again, it won’t be me.”

“That it’s more true than you think [laughs],” the director told Rolling Stone."

At least they didn't turn poor Harry into an office fern.

They only got Doc Hayward back for that weird Skype call because he's co-creator Mark Frost's dad.

Literally phoning it in! That's somehow makes it worse; they couldn't take a camera to dad's house to film his side of the phone call? I admit it makes for a moment with Forster. =)

Yep, how they handle that is also a fear of mine. I also prematurely feel bad for Naomi Watts' character. But maybe that'll work out in the end, anyway.

Yeah, stick with Naomi and Sonny Jim, Coop! She's a "tough dame," way better than Heather Graham, the series' original talking tree. Way more plausible his love for them could open the White Lodge than roller girl.

He vomits up garmonbozia just as he dies, so he's a creature of the Black Lodge. The real question is who "manufactured" him and why. Evil Coop was supposed to die/return to the Lodge when Coop came back into the world, but instead, Dougie was taken into the Lodge and Evil Coop ended up spared. That benefits him, but it doesn't seem to me that Evil Coop knew about Dougie.

Someone's been reading the textbook (can you define garmonbozia for the class? =), so I'll just have to copy off your paper. Could Jeffries be behind it all somehow? If that was him on the phone he wanted Evil Coop back in though. Also, despite his appearances in the lodge, isn't Mike physically still out there (I actually don't remember exactly what became of him)? He did have the ring Dougie was wearing in Fire Walk With Me or vice versa, and I believe the voice on the phone mentioned getting Bob back to the lodge, which makes sense depending on wherever whoever wants him in there is... UGH! I don't know, lots of confusing, seemingly contradictory stuff. It's just easier to assume Evil Coop had a plan to keep himself out, it may have been Dougie, and it worked but just not as he thought (like while driving), but then you're a few more steps down the road than me and may know different already, so I'll take your word for it that Evil Coop is out.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 03, 2017, 04:30:09 PM »
Wow, you really cruised through it! What'd you think of the Season 2 finale...?

I was surprised how focused and ultimately short it was, actually. I was expecting kind of an extended cleanup of the mess that is the latter half of season 2 and then an ending to redeem it, but that was cast off judiciously and it pretty much was just the redeeming black lodge horror and weirdness, so that was cool! What an awful cliffhanger on which to go on a 25 year hiatus though (of course for me it was no wait at all, they were just 25 years older in the next episode). :ganishka:

Of course, I was also impressed by the "see you in 25 years" thing. Considering the brief production turmoil that went into this specific revival they just made it. =)

Well, I've been watching since it aired, and I've had no real problems with the deferment of the inevitable return of Cooper. Personally I'm loving Dougie. On top of the overall comedy with his scenes, there's quite a bit of Cooper in his reactions to things, too. And seeing those glimpses of  him THROUGH Dougie is great. Crying at the realization that he has a son, even through his opaque perceptions, was a powerful moment.

You make a great point that it's still essentially Cooper, just forced through limited ability to communicate and understand, which actually make for an interesting alternative examination of the core of his character. So, rather than feeling like we're getting cheated here (like if he was just droolin' in a coma half the time, the classic copout) it's like the ultimate Cooper deep dive! I want to see him fully returned of course, but I'm not impatient for this to end either. I've also appreciated the subtle progress being made, there's been a real gradation from his first moments to where he is at the end of seven. He's sort of becoming a new man, so I wonder if that will stay and he'll become a new sort of Coop or will it be a bit sad if he fully snaps out of it and "Dougie" is simply no more. BTW, what the hell was/is Dougie!? I'm assuming the doppelganger used knowledge from Jeffries (probably no Bowie either :judo:) and Briggs, and perhaps even his body, to create another doppleganger to cheat the system with the ring, whatever the system is, but... "What the hell!?"

The scene of him with the statue of the police officer (at the end of episode 5), made me think he was reminded of his friend Harry. And it's indeed sad that odds are very low that we'll get the REAL Harry Truman in this series. As you said, probably the biggest bummer of the entire endeavor. He wasn't a crucial character for the story, but he's part of the heart of Twin Peaks.

Yeeeeeah... another reason I can wait for Cooper's return; he's not going to reunite with the one person I really care to see him with again and it makes me sad for both. Cooper without Harry is like coffee without the donuts. They couldn't even get him on Skype like the doctor? =) But yeah, I guess I shouldn't complain when some of these returns do make me wonder if perhaps Harry is lucky to remain out of it with dignity intact. Like I was happy to see Duchovny back, that was one I wanted to see, but it's not like they had anything for him to do (yet). Gordon has actually been the most essential returning character to me besides Cooper, and I thought he was pretty disposable originally.

It's pretty gross to me how they've replaced him but not replaced him. The book that somewhat bridges the Season 2-3 gap wrote Frank into the story as if he were there all along. Mmhm.  :azan:

Agreed, that's what makes it stink, I'd be disappointed but understanding if they simply couldn't get the actor back and went from there, but pick a principle and go with it ("we're writing around the actors or we're not"), because this is no-man's land. Hell, if not simply writing him off I'd probably prefer if they just recast to this (I mean, they recast Donna in the movie); at least let the characters have their reunion in spirit, if not the actors. Maybe they'll talk on the phone or something, but currently it's a pretty distracting compromise.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 03, 2017, 02:39:18 PM »
7 into season 3 and here are some impressions:

I think I'm enjoying the new world of Twin Peaks, which largely isn't in Twin Peaks at all, more than the callbacks to the some of the old characters (with the exception of Doc Jacoby's little pseudo-political infomercial =) that don't seem to really have a place in this story and setting (but we'll see).

I feel like little has happened really, yet almost every moment of the show is captivating. I find myself probably enjoying and relating a bit too much to the new out of it Cooper. =) Yet no matter how much his return is delayed I'm enjoying watching the journey and process (him reconnecting with coffee was a big deal). Typically, I would hate this kind of arbitrary deferment as it were, so I have to acknowledge that with my praise, and maybe I wouldn't like it so much if I weren't able to binge these at my leisure, but it's been fine and I'm enjoying all the new stuff (Naomi Watts and the rest of the newcomers, save Michael Cera, sorry Cera, have all been enjoyable) and the questions being raised (even if I suspect answers will arrive never).

On that note, I also enjoy Evil Cooper of course, who reminds me of Bruce Campbell, and look forward to getting to the bottom of him and all the bad things he's done or plans to do, and the fact that he's not just Bob but something uniquely Cooperish himself, though an evil doppelganger.

The biggest bummers of the show are probably the compromises that had to be made, the absence of Bob (I heard the actor died), but the biggest is the lack of Harry S. Truman, who after Coop, and with him, is probably the character I was most looking forward to seeing again (he was nothing if not agreeable after all), and as much as I like Robert Forster I can't say I really agree with the thankless way they've handled the situation by de facto recasting but technically not. I'd rather Harry just be dead, Hawk be Chief, and Forster someone else altogether but we'll see how it plays out or pays off.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: August 02, 2017, 06:55:29 AM »
You had one job Griff. After all this talk of season 2 and how to go about it. Watching the movie (what did you think of it?) before the finale was the only mistake you could make.


Remember, I somehow managed to watch episodes 2 and 3 of the series before the feature length premiere that sets it all up! Compared to that Fire Walk With Me before finishing season 2 was nothing, and to be clear it was after I knew Laura Palmer's killer, so nothing too jarring in the movie, that wouldn't have been anyway, except a suspicion I already had more or less confirmed.

Good luck powering through all the remaining "questionable" episodes with no payoff.

Done. And another reason I can't say I regret the movie decision is it would have felt like a detour after the season 2 finale (I think I actually watched it at a pretty perfect time, shortly after the big reveal/resolution). Instead, I got to jump right to 25 years later and into season 3, which is... a tonal shift. Even from the leaner, meaner movie, which is admittedly probably a good transition from the original series to The Return: R Rated Twin Peaks. Anyway, I'm glad I watched it all because even though some of it was pretty rough I realized even you experts can't tell me what's truly critical or not because you haven't seen half the new series. For all we know the finale hinges on what happened with Leo and the tarantulas! =)

Oh, and thanks for keeping my karma outside of the black lodge.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: July 31, 2017, 07:40:58 PM »
:ganishka: ... You probably shouldn't even be in this thread  :azan:

I have to be careful what I read or don't around here! I actually think I got spoilered on a big season 3 reveal before I even started watching, that paradoxically may have been the major catalyst for my watching, but I won't know for sure until I get there (it's already looking plausible though).

That's good to hear. Season 2 definitely benefits from a low-stakes entry point. I don't know how anyone could get through the James-Donna-Maddy stuff with a completely sober watching experience.

How about the song they "play" together? Good lord, the screen should have just flashed "FUCK YOU!" in bright red letters fast enough to cause an epileptic seizure.

You might have watched Fire Walk With Me a bit too early though, since it relates to the finale.

That danger occurred to me, but I actually had an interested guest and didn't want to unduly subject them to extra James/Donna, so I thought what the hell I probably won't even know what I'm (not) missing. Though, I think I caught a few things, in particular about the status of Agent Cooper and the aforementioned "spoiler," but then I could just be imagining a fanfic theory in my head  that won't be close to anything in season 3.

Yep. Dale Cooper's been in our heads for decades, so it's going to be a bit different for you, I think.

We shall see, looking forward to it. I should also mention we started watching the movie and season 2 episodes this weekend with a big box of Randy's Donuts and some fine black coffee before moving on to alcohol later in the day.

Billy Zane hasn't aged well at all!! :troll:

Ah, see, now I know Billy Zane is back! SPOILED... or not (and it was difficult to insert this without reading the tagged part, but I did it =). It's hard not to google everyone that is or isn't back.

Even a search for a "Cooper thumbs up" may have yielded a spoiler for this season. :ganishka:

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: July 31, 2017, 05:34:52 PM »
So should I skip this episode of the new season when I get to it and just go straight to the next!?

Just kidding, but on that note my retro Twin Peaks update: We are up to episode 17 of season 2 and have already watched Firewalk with Me to break things up a bit (we also had a weekend guest Sunday that had seen the series but not the film). I figured out the secret to really enjoying the season 2 grind, which is to drink beer continously throughout (to keep a good even buzz on ala Magnum). Since that worked out rather wonderfully, we're now a stone's throw away from season 3 and whatever changes and secrets it holds. I imagine it won't feel quite the same as watching it years ago and truly "returning" to Twin Peaks after such a time.

Movies, TV, Books & Music / Re: Twin Peaks Returns
« on: July 28, 2017, 02:52:04 PM »
I won't hold it against you. In fact, maybe the reason I don't remember some of the later episodes is because I skipped a few myself. Nightcrawlers advice isn't a bad way to go (for what it's worth i gave you some good karma for the suggestion Nighty  :serpico: ).

It didn't help him much (0), but with my vote he's back in the black! :ganishka: Does anyone care about these arbitrary karma points though? Everyone knows sexual prowess is tied to your post count anyway. :carcus:

Hey, you made me watch all those crappy Magnum P.I. episodes before I could get to the good ones!  :farnese:

That hurts, poor Huggins. :guts: BTW, just to update you Sneakers is stuck in the queue behind Peaks.

I don't think the best is behind you, though. I don't think I fell in love with the series until the season 2 finale, and it and the movie gave me a new appreciation for everything. There is something special about those early episodes, but they feel quite tame now, almost cute, with everything that's transpired since.

The way that I'd explain the appeal of the show is that there's never been anything like it on TV, and I think it helped set the stage for the modern-day hour-long prime time TV dramas. It's got an atmosphere, characters, and a sense of humor that only Lynch can provide. He'll take a sharp turn in an otherwise terrifying or sad scene to show something like Andy crying next to the train where Laura was murdered because he's too emotional. Little moments like that, of which there are a half-dozen or so each (good) episode, are constantly playing with your expectations. I think the "whodunit" that launched the series got played out early on, and I stopped caring at a certain point. I don't think that's what the show did well. I just wanted to keep seeing what the characters were up to.

Also, I think your earlier perceptions of the show might have tainted your viewing of it. The legacy of the show really isn't its randomness. I think that's just how some people in the '90s perceived it before the revelations in the finale and the movie.  The series' supernatural elements really aren't weird for weirdness sake. Watching those early episodes now, there's a pattern to almost everything. Just like Dark Souls isn't great because it's "the hardest game of all time!" Twin Peaks isn't great because it's "the strangest most surreal thing you've ever seen!"

I think perception and expectation is definitely playing a role here, not that I expected it to be the most mind-bending thing I've ever seen and anything less is a disappointment, but just the fact that I've probably been exposed a lot of what it's inspired so I'm not getting the "best TV show ever?" impact it had at the time. It sure doesn't look like a TV show from the era, more like a film, but now everything does. Same for the non-traditional storytelling elements, though it also plays up the tropes nicely, which is another thing that was probably more novel at the time, and now it almost feels more genuinely like that old TV than a goof on it (like it really is Invitation to Love now; "as Emerald AND Jade" lol). Plus, just judging from the conversations here I got a bad impression of season 2 going in, which I ass-u-me'd meant the magic of the show was locked in the first 8 episodes, but apparently not so. That's good, because I'm fine with the progression from season 1 into the early episodes of season 2, glad it shouldn't be "devalued," though I'm still getting, and admittedly giving, mixed signals.

There's very little about Season 2 that you need to see to make sense of the finale and the rest. Really, there are just two characters which don't take much time to explain. I wouldn't feel too guilty about skipping past most of it if you really aren't feeling it. Though you're going to miss some great stuff with Leland and of course Leo's shoes.

Yeah, I love Ray Wise here, and he's basically the A#1 80's face I was referencing before, plus Sully(!) as one of my favorite whimsically murderous, marshmallow-loving bad brothers! The ledger/marshmallow scene pretty much encompasses everything I love and hate about the show.

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