Cell Factor!!

[Tiddlywinks]

Coming soon to N64, GoldenEye 2. And Half-Life 2, in case you didn't see it.

Wally and Sparnage are right, games are serious, and this... this... this changes EVERYTHING (well, some things... in video games)! It's so great, it's not like it will be refined, improved, and made standard. I need to play it in its roughest, most un-utilized form in a generic FPS for the highest price possible. I'm married to these run of the mill titles already; it's my new religion. While you losers enjoy those timeless games with the all-day gameplay, staying power, refined execution, and thought put into them; I'll be feeling advanced with another in the slew of state of the art brand-X FPS tech demos released every few years, which even I won't remember a few months later. Fuck Mario, I'll be playing Rise of the Triad: Ageia, blowing boxes up and blasting pipe like a real man, and it'll be the best game since DooM 3, so there!


P.S. Can I buy this for PS3 at launch?

Haha! I like it so much Griff I think I'll try to copy it.

 

[Griffith]

Haha, brilliant, I like it so much I think I'll try to copy it!

Well, thank you, but you better not; such a crude attempt would only ruin one of your big important posts.

 

[Tiddlywinks]

Pathetic.

Indeed they are, Walter. The revenue generated from them is already higher than that of the movie industry. I guess now we can get back to an important issue like who would win a fight between Berserk character A and B.

Griffith, I disagree! I can't wait until it's watered down and consolised for plebs like myself! While those elitist PC fags boast about their pretty graphics and features that won't make it to me in years, I get to congratulate developers for putting lots of thought into simplistic games they designed with children in mind! I also get to cast blanket statements like the one I just made!

By the way, your captions probably line up correctly under whatever low resolution you're using.

 

[Griffith]

[quote author=Tiddlywinks]Pathetic.[/quote]

Yeah, that was the point. =)

[quote author=Tiddlywinks]The revenue generated from them is already higher than that of the movie industry.[/quote]

Yeah, the console gaming industry, computer gaming is relatively dead outside the online realm (been to an EB lately?). I remember the golden age, my friend.

[quote author=Tiddlywinks]I guess now we can get back to an important issue like who would win a fight between Berserk character A and B.[/quote]

But what kind of physics are they using!? =)

[quote author=Tiddlywinks]Griffith, I disagree! I can't wait until it's watered down and consolised for plebs like myself! While those elitist PC fags boast about their pretty graphics and features that won't make it to me in years, I get to congratulate developers for putting lots of thought into simplistic games they designed with children in mind! I also get to cast blanket statements like the one I just made![/quote]

Well, I think you're trying to riff on my own little satire, the difference (besides mine being a joke and funny) is underneth my points were actually reasonable (and pretty basically what I said before and you agreed with, I don't have a real strong stance otherwise). Your speech IS extreme blanket statements, as it says.

You take this wholly more serious than I do I think, I mean, I was just trolling, same reason I had the deleted post deleted. Nothing personal, I'm just an ass like that. =)

[quote author=Tiddlywinks]By the way, your captions probably line up correctly under whatever low resolution you're using. [/quote]

Technically, they'd look different at any other resolution than my own.

 

[CnC]

I can't wait 'till your little argument breaks down to baseless name-calling. Its headin' there fast.

As far as this game is concerned, it just doesn't look like much fun. Sure, moving a lot of blocks via rigid body dynamics sure looks cool, but it can't be that much fun for more than an hour. The only video I've seen of this game in action was a test map where the player was moving blocks around a helipad (or something) suspended over a cliff. After a while all the blocks would fall over the cliff and there'd be nothing else left to do. He had to reset the blocks so he could play around with them again.
Is _that_ revolutionary? Is _that_ worth spending money on a physics accelerator? Obvious answer is no. This isn't going to make people buy into physics acceleration. The only way I can see that sort of thing taking off is if they bundled the chip on the GPU.

 

[Griffith]

Fuck you, CnC(unt)!

But exactly, I see it sort of the same as graphics, it's nice and will get better and will be incorporated, but it's only a means to an end. It's nothing creative or that stimulating by itself until the developers really figure out how to do something with it.

Like have Mario break blocks with his head and have mushrooms come out... realistically!

 

[Tiddlywinks]

Golly gosh, you sure showed me, Griff. Incidentally I was raised on Nintendo and am eagerly awaiting the Wii. 

CnC, we're yet to see what the single player has in store, but you're probably right.

Am I bashing them?

Nah, this is for people not skilled enough to use/create a purely software physics engine, so they need a $300 card to do it for them.

Well there are people in this world that are able to properly code a graphics/physics engine on their own, without the need of specific libraries using specific hardware.

I don't think that proves what I said wrong at all. I was a bit facetious concerning developer ineptitude originally (kinda trolling the thread, you know), but they're still motivated by a gain of time and development costs here, and they don't necessarily have enough people/resources to start coding their own separate physics engine (more specifically to create libraries for it). I'm not privy to all these companies' internal situations, but it's a question of constraints basically, and I'm pretty sure that if they had the choice they'd be more than happy to develop their own solution (just like they do for the graphics engine). Because really, what's the reason otherwise? You're saying they're skilled enough to do it, but they're still buying a SDK from another company. If that's not for the gain of development time and cost, then what?

Epic are bigger players than Crytek. If they thought coding their own physics was the best option, they wouldn't think twice about it. They make most of their money from licencing the engine, so having the best product possible is important to them. How many Unreal tech games have come out in recent years, compared to the number of CryEngine titles? Exactly. Money and time aren't factors in their decision. Is it really such a stretch of the imagination for you to assume that these people who are quite adept at building engines think that hardware acceleration is a good thing? This is the point I implied.

Well they were saying it didn't run well because everything had complex physics applying to it (so the graphics engine couldn't follow or something like that), which isn't Crysis' case. I'm not really all that interested in the matter as you might have guessed, so I can't say I've checked it up in detail, but if the developers say so and that they work together with the company producing PhysX, I'm going to give them some credibility on the subject. And so should you, I guess?

No, I try to take what PR people say with a grain of salt. Of course running another card and shit will involve a bit of overhead, but it's a bit counterintuitive to think that something which is supposed to relieve the system a bit would stress it to that extent. It's interesting that Revolution is using even more objects and looking prettier than ever, all the while running very well, is it not? Amazing what a few months of optimising can achieve.

Like I said, the context isn't quite the same. And you're killing your analogy yourself here: "maybe not dedicated." We already have cards dedicated to graphics. Now people are even using 2 of them simultaneously. And another, $300 card would be needed just for physics? All of this for games only? I don't think the 2 main manufacturers will let this happen, and I don't think people are going to make hardware physics acceleration a requirement to play most games before it's widely spread.

If you read my posts carefully, you'll find that I don't care so much about Ageia but about the fact I'm being told I'll definitely have to buy this $300 physics card to play any game in the future. I don't think that'd be great, and I wish/think it won't happen. I'd rather see specific chipsets integrated to future graphics cards, personally.

I guess I'll expand on the "maybe". We're yet to see one single bit of evidence that ATi/Havoks method works as well as Ageia's. I'm not going to base my opinion of what they're able to do on one video of what looks like demented traffic cones and logs caught in a whirlwind. Not to mention that the rig it was supposedly running on was meant to be CrossFire enabled, but some prying eyes made their way around to the back of the machine and found that one of the cards wasn't even connected. Mighty suspicious.

I do know that nVidia have stated that the physics they plan on implementing with Havok is not to compete with Ageia, but rather that it's complimentary - only for non gameplay physics e.g. particles and other purely visual effects.

Besides, I'm not so sure it's the most elegant solution. When running in dual configuration the graphics bus gets quite busy. Do we really want to be pumping more data through it? And my card struggles enough as it is, do I want it to perform complex physics processing as well? Another thing to consider is that gameplay physics aren't very scaleable. With the PhysX card, developers know exactly what the hardware can and can't do, and can design their games accordingly. With all the different configurations of video cards, they'll be stuck designing games for the lowest common denominator.

With the prices of video cards, a couple of hundred bucks for a physics card to help the performance doesn't sound that bad to me, as opposed to forking out for an entirely new top of the range card.

Ageia have many titles on board already (how many planned HavokFX titles is there again?). They're doing pretty well, especially when you take into account how much support 3DFX had within the first year of their debut hardware. So for the immediate future I think it's fitting, as Ageia will likely have it's little time in the limelight just as 3DFX did. Who knows, they may well corner the market and in 10 or so years we'll have another Creative on our hands, holding it back. But for the moment they're innovating, and gaming will be all the better for it.   

Crysis runs on the CryEngine2 and Stalker on Havok

X-Ray uses an in house designed physics engine.
[/quote]

 

[Griffith]

Golly gosh, you sure showed me, Griff.

Apparently. See, answers like this are why I don't waste time with big replies, anymore.

Incidentally I was raised on Nintendo and am eagerly awaiting the Wii.

Who wasn't raised on Nintendo? And I'm eagerly awaiting our mutual dissapointment (elation if they actually make it work).

Oh, the one time Griff doesn't delete my post and I stuff it up!

No double posting. =)

 

[Aazealh]

Incidentally I was raised on Nintendo and am eagerly awaiting the Wii.

Excuse me, but how does it relate to the discussion? That's not really the subject here.

Am I bashing them?

So the answer is that I didn't, right? I mocked Cell Factor's developers (you know, Cell Factor, the topic of this thread) in the quotes your posted, so... What's your point again? Ah yeah, you don't have any.

Epic are bigger players than Crytek. If they thought coding their own physics was the best option, they wouldn't think twice about it. [...] Money and time aren't factors in their decision. Is it really such a stretch of the imagination for you to assume that these people who are quite adept at building engines think that hardware acceleration is a good thing? This is the point I implied.

What matters to them is just your assumption here buddy. And I'm pretty sure time is quite a factor. Their Engine is targeting 2006-2009 games, and we're in late 2006 already. Don't go too far either, they're using the PhysX SDK among other next-generation technologies in their engine, but how big of a role Ageia's hardware will play has yet to be demonstrated. What's sure is that it isn't central to the engine, it's a feature among others, and their engine is only compatible with the card because they're using the SDK, plain and simple. It's not like they've never done that before anyway, the Unreal Engine 2.0 used the Karma physics engine and it wasn't their own. The hardware isn't making any difference in their choice here.

No, I try to take what PR people say with a grain of salt.

These PR people are under contract with Ageia, so I wouldn't expect them to blame Ageia for their lack of talent, as a matter of fact they were trying to hype it. It goes back to what I saying originally though: they're not skilled enough to do it correctly on their own (at least, it's what you're saying). I guess I'm just obviously right and you guys can't admit it or something (even though you constantly consolidate what I say). Anyway, since you're really just assuming stuff here (you're a fanboy as you said yourself, and you don't have any inside knowledge of the situation, right?) I guess I'm not going to uselessly pursue the discussion. Keep in mind that the thread is about Cell Factor though, not anything else. What matters is that Cell Factor will have downgraded graphics because it uses a powerful physics engine, from what Cell Factor's developers are saying.

We're yet to see one single bit of evidence that ATi/Havoks method works as well as Ageia's. [...] I do know that nVidia have stated that the physics they plan on implementing with Havok is not to compete with Ageia, but rather that it's complimentary - only for non gameplay physics e.g. particles and other purely visual effects.

Yeah, that amounts to very much indeed. We have yet to see, bla bla. We also have yet to see the PhysX card being a real retailing success (have you tried it yet? Alienware uses them now so as a fan you probably got one, right?), and being required by "most" games. Again, my original points aren't being proven wrong. Maybe you don't understand them? I don't know, I thought it was pretty simple. And you yourself paraphrased what I said in your precedent post, essentially saying exactly what you're trying to debate against right now. That Ageia was only getting the ball to roll, that MS was developing its own libraries, and that other bigger players would surely come into the market, likely obscuring or plain buying Ageia.

With the prices of video cards, a couple of hundred bucks for a physics card to help the performance doesn't sound that bad to me, as opposed to forking out for an entirely new top of the range card.

You're a high end PC gamer or not? Buying new graphics cards every 3-6 months is necessary anyway in order to play correctly, so that's not really the question, right? In the end, I'd still like a cheaper solution, these short-term promises aren't worth $300 to me.

Ageia have many titles on board already

They have a couple dozen, most of which are primarily using their SDK and not heavily relying on the hardware (unlike the guys at Cell Factor). And they're not all good games either from the list I've seen.

So for the immediate future I think it's fitting, as Ageia will likely have it's little time in the limelight just as 3DFX did. Who knows, they may well corner the market and in 10 or so years we'll have another Creative on our hands, holding it back. But for the moment they're innovating, and gaming will be all the better for it.

Doesn't change the fact that the context is different, like I've been repeating. There weren't manufacturers specialized in games hardware back then, and there are now. Ageia's main strength is the ex-NovodeX, now PhysX SDK. It's basically the new hot physics engine, sort of Havok's successor in that regard in "common-player" terms (at least until other competitors rise up to the challenge). What they're doing now is creating specialized hardware for it. Their goal is pretty clear in my mind and it's to create and subsequently take over a physics hardware market. I'm all for innovation, but not when it requires to pay $300 for limited actual improvements. Because it won't make much of a difference before games start using it at their core and not just as a gimmick. We've yet to see how games that use the SDK but that are planning to be playable without the card will fare with and without it. At least I haven't read anything about it yet. My guess is that on high-end machines it won't make a lot of differences if the developers don't want to include features limited to the card users.

X-Ray uses an in house designed physics engine.

Uhh, didn't you read what I was replying to, or are you just stupid?

 

[CnC]

Jeez. Is this level of exposition really needed!? We're talking about a tech demo. Ya either didn't like it or did. No need to get snippy. Its really not worth it.

Fuck you, CnC(unt)!

And caaaan you feel, the Looooove toniiight?

 

[Aazealh]

Jeez. Is this level of exposition really needed!? We're talking about a tech demo. Ya either didn't like it or did. No need to get snippy. Its really not worth it.

Well, Cell Factor is a real game, they're not marketing it as a mere tech demo. And I'm just replying to what people tell me personally, I have no real interest in the topic otherwise. I don't think anybody really disagrees with what I'm saying either (well except those that like Cell Factor, sorry Sparnage!), it's just the way of saying it (plus varying opinions on how the market could evolve I guess).

It's a way of spending time if you will, but I have to admit since it's been touched upon that Ageia is far from being on the entertainment level of Sony as far as breaking news go. The Inquirer affirmed two days ago that the PS3's GPU lost ~10% of its announced frequency (going from 550/700 MHz to 500/650 MHz) for example, and no explanation was given. Of course The Inquirer doesn't have a lot of credibility, and that makes the whole thing twice as funny.

EDIT: Hey, now that I think of it, maybe it's because they're using the PhysX SDK? Hahaha I'm a trolling genius!

 

[CnC]

Well, Cell Factor is a real game, they're not marketing it as a mere tech demo. And I'm just replying to what people tell me personally, I have no real interest in the topic otherwise. I don't think anybody really disagrees with what I'm saying either (well except those that like Cell Factor, sorry Sparnage!), it's just the way of saying it.

Well, all thats been released so far is the tech demo, no? How much is really known about the game other than whats shown in this demo? Its not really enough material to form _any_ real opinions on itself. Meh, whatever.

Far be it from me to deprive you of your fun of those quoting bonanza posts

 

[Aazealh]

Well, all thats been released so far is the tech demo, no? How much is really known about the game other than whats shown in this demo?

Pfff, how would I know... I'm sure someone that care could tell you, but I guess it's "not much." I don't think they even have a release date yet, or else it's something like Q4 2007. I'm sure Sparnage would know more about it.

Far be it from me to deprive you of your fun of those quoting bonanza posts

Well, these aren't exactly the fun part, I'd rather just stick to one liners. It's just that in an irrepressible subconcious need to respect my interlocutors I can't help but give them at least semi-serious (and long/boring) replies.

 

[HawaiianStallion]

Seeing as there is too much for me to read here, I'll just go off on another physics related tangent. When are we going to get realistic men's package physics? I mean Itagaki dedicated a game to the idea of breast physics, and is coming out with a sequel on the 360, when are men's junk gonna get the same treatment? Long overdue

 

[Aazealh]

Seeing as there is too much for me to read here, I'll just go off on another physics related tangent. When are we going to get realistic men's package physics?

I'm sure Kojima has plans to implement it in MGS4. NO PLACE TO HIDE.

 

[Tiddlywinks]

Excuse me, but how does it relate to the discussion?

Now, did you read what I was replying to?

So the answer is that I didn't, right?

Don't play dumb. You and I both know very well why you referenced the hardware in both these quotes.

What matters to them is just your assumption here buddy. And I'm pretty sure time is quite a factor. Their Engine is targeting 2006-2009 games, and we're in late 2006 already. Don't go too far either, they're using the PhysX SDK among other next-generation technologies in their engine, but how big of a role Ageia's hardware will play has yet to be demonstrated. What's sure is that it isn't central to the engine, it's a feature among others, and their engine is only compatible with the card because they're using the SDK, plain and simple. It's not like they've never done that before anyway, the Unreal Engine 2.0 used the Karma physics engine and it wasn't their own. The hardware isn't making any difference in their choice here.

Oh, the hypocrisy. Not only are you basing your opinion on assumption, pal, but you're assuming that that's also what I'm basing mine on. Much of my argument hasn't been baseless. There's been some speculation in there, but I never tried to pass it off as fact. You readily admit that you're not overly interested in the subject and therefore not well informed (which is apparent by me continually having to correct you), yet you persist in arguing with me. The hardware being supported is not a mere side effect of them choosing to use the SDK. Tim Sweeney has made his opinion on the matter well known. They've been working closely with Ageia since their inception, it's integral and doesn't simply run alongside their regular physics engine like Karma did.

These PR people are under contract with Ageia, so I wouldn't expect them to blame Ageia for their lack of talent, as a matter of fact they were trying to hype it.

Ding ding!

It goes back to what I saying originally though: they're not skilled enough to do it correctly on their own (at least, it's what you're saying). [...] What matters is that Cell Factor will have downgraded graphics because it uses a powerful physics engine, from what Cell Factor's developers are saying.

No, it's not what I'm saying at all, thankyou for putting words in my mouth. You're not the only one who can ignore what was said and then reiterate: If you had any clue about the game development process you'd know that early on, (especially when working with new tech) things are terribly unoptimised. CellFactor will not have downgraded graphics, quite the contrary, Revolution is looking prettier than ever, whilst even more physics are going on.

I guess I'm just obviously right and you guys can't admit it or something (even though you constantly consolidate what I say).

It's weird, I'm starting to think you actually believe that.

Anyway, since you're really just assuming stuff here (you're a fanboy as you said yourself, and you don't have any inside knowledge of the situation, right?) I guess I'm not going to uselessly pursue the discussion.

Again with the assumptions, not everybody conducts discussions like yourself. The latter part was the first intelligent thing you've said so far.

Keep in mind that the thread is about Cell Factor though, not anything else.

My apologies. If you please, feel free to start another and we can continue the discussion there. It's pretty much on topic though, I'm not sure how many forums you frequent but this is hardly a thread derailment. Also, you're just as responsible as I, if you didn't attempt to refute my comments I wouldn't really have much more to say now, would I?

Again, my original points aren't being proven wrong. Maybe you don't understand them? I don't know, I thought it was pretty simple. And you yourself paraphrased what I said in your precedent post, essentially saying exactly what you're trying to debate against right now. That Ageia was only getting the ball to roll, that MS was developing its own libraries, and that other bigger players would surely come into the market, likely obscuring or plain buying Ageia.

Please don't tell me I have to explain the concepts of "maybe" and "eventually" to you.

have you tried it yet? Alienware uses them now so as a fan you probably got one, right? [...] You're a high end PC gamer or not? Buying new graphics cards every 3-6 months is necessary anyway in order to play correctly, so that's not really the question, right? In the end, I'd still like a cheaper solution, these short-term promises aren't worth $300 to me.

No, I don't own one, not that you need to own an overpriced Alienware machine to. I've never implied I'll be buying one until there's actually some titles on shelf that would make the purchase worthy. And no, I don't upgrade at every product refresh. Now I might be reading between the lines here, but I'm getting a bit of a feeling that you're running a fairly old shitbox, and the thought of having to fork out even more money could be where all this negativity is stemming from. Playing psychologist is fun, isn't it?

They have a couple dozen, most of which are primarily using their SDK and not heavily relying on the hardware (unlike the guys at Cell Factor). And they're not all good games either from the list I've seen.

You're right for once, they don't heavily rely on the hardware. Your point? Their goal right now is to get as much support as possible, more "only on PhysX" games will come later. "Good games" is subjective.

Doesn't change the fact that the context is different, like I've been repeating. There weren't manufacturers specialized in games hardware back then, and there are now.

Wow, that completely changes everything! Now I see how invalid comparing a card doing processing in place of the CPU to another one is! Because the ones I'm comparing it to exist!

Ageia's main strength is the ex-NovodeX, now PhysX SDK. It's basically the new hot physics engine, sort of Havok's successor in that regard in "common-player" terms (at least until other competitors rise up to the challenge).

No, their main strength is the hardware. Without it, their solution is no more impressive than other current offerings.

Uhh, didn't you read what I was replying to, or are you just stupid?

My my. Yes, I did actually read what you said, and no I'm not stupid. I'm unsure whether you misunderstood what I said, or why I said it, so I'll break it down for you: GSC, the developers of STALKER, coded the X-Ray engine, of which part of is their physics engine, which they also coded, and which is not Havok. This is a practice known as pettifogging.

 

[Aazealh]

Now, did you read what I was replying to?

I sure did, and what you said doesn't relate to the discussion. I don't think you quite understood what Griffith was telling you or the kind of people you're talking to in general. I think his reply should have given you a clue. But I get it, you're just a fan of innovation at large, all you want is a better gaming experience, you like all kinds of games and aren't condescending toward what you think others like, etc.

Don't play dumb. You and I both know very well why you referenced the hardware in both these quotes.

I think if someone's playing dumb it's you here buddy. If you can't read or can't understand what's written that's too bad but it's still not what's being said. When I'm saying some people need a SDK and a card to make an engine instead of creating their own, I'm talking about developers, not card manufacturers. Seems pretty simple to get. Maybe you're not quite as sharp as I thought.

You readily admit that you're not overly interested in the subject and therefore not well informed (which is apparent by me continually having to correct you), yet you persist in arguing with me. The hardware being supported is not a mere side effect of them choosing to use the SDK. Tim Sweeney has made his opinion on the matter well known. They've been working closely with Ageia since their inception, it's integral and doesn't simply run alongside their regular physics engine like Karma did.

I definitely am not interested at all, yet I'm not all that uninformed (well, not completely? ), just like you're not all that informed, apparently. Who's a hypocrite here when I'm actually the one that's been correcting you on what's supposedly your domain of predilection, uh? And I'm not talking about nitpicking. What Tim Sweeney is enthusiastic about is physics in games and who can blame him really, yet what he said, to be exact, is: "We've been collaborating with Ageia since their inception, and Unreal Engine 3 thoroughly exploits the Novodex physics API." Yes, the NovodeX physics API. So, who's not paying attention (or rather, being dishonest) here? Want another quote on Tim's view of the market's evolution? "As with any new technology, there will be early games available that add hardware physics support into a mostly finished game design." Yeah, that add hardware support to a mostly finished game design. Man, guess he and I don't really disagree, now do we? So yeah, like I said the Unreal Engine 3.0 will use the SDK and therefore be compatible with the hardware card, but it's not their focus. And the way they chose PhysX doesn't differ from the one they chose Karma. Of course they have good hope for the development of hardware acceleration in that domain but that doesn't really go against what I was saying. I also hope hardware acceleration will make its way to the mainstream market and end up being at the core many games, just not in the form of Ageia's proprietary card at its current price. And yes, you're making quite a bit of assumptions, or deforming facts at best.

But you know, now that I look around the web, it seems that debate has really been going on for a while... This article for example sums it up well enough I think, despite being a few months old, and I agree with most of the guy's points. And since we're at it, here's a recent interview of Tim Sweeney on physics.

No, it's not what I'm saying at all, thankyou for putting words in my mouth. You're not the only one who can ignore what was said and then reiterate: If you had any clue about the game development process you'd know that early on, (especially when working with new tech) things are terribly unoptimised.

That's pretty much the same thing, you're just arguing that they're getting better. Being unoptimized seems an easy excuse to me, like you know, PR work. Got any example on Revolution though, pictures, videos? Since you know, the thread's about Cell Factor. And when's it coming out already? Do you have a date? Someone was wondering.

Again with the assumptions, not everybody conducts discussions like yourself. The latter part was the first intelligent thing you've said so far.

Haha, so now you're not even trying to hide that you're bitter anymore? When you run out of things to say you just start to get frustrated and offensive?

My apologies. If you please, feel free to start another and we can continue the discussion there. It's pretty much on topic though, I'm not sure how many forums you frequent but this is hardly a thread derailment. Also, you're just as responsible as I, if you didn't attempt to refute my comments I wouldn't really have much more to say now, would I?

You know, you're the one that deviated the topic in the first place, and also the one that replied to me. Not the other way around. Now, I'm just telling you I'd like us to focus on Cell Factor since it's what we should be talking about. I don't think it's that hard to fathom, or is it? If you care to make a dedicated thread, you make it. Otherwise you can at least live up to your claims of fandom and provide some information on the game when people ask them instead of solely arguing with me about petty things that in the end don't change the main premise.

Please don't tell me I have to explain the concepts of "maybe" and "eventually" to you.

You know, who's replying to me in the first place? Or maybe you can't understand what I say and need to repeat it, only adding "maybe" and "eventually" to it? You're not really addressing what I said, is that because you can't deny it?

No, I don't own one, not that you need to own an overpriced Alienware machine to. I've never implied I'll be buying one until there's actually some titles on shelf that would make the purchase worthy

Haha, Ok, so you can give Sparnage some advice there, right? He felt like buying the card early and all, that every game would need one soon. So you can confirm to him that it's not worth it right now and that he'd better wait for a while until he decides to invest? If even a fan like you's waiting I think it's pretty clear he should too. You see, in the end we all agree. Only some people can't put up to what they're babbling about. It's still going back to what I told Sparnage at first...

I'm getting a bit of a feeling that you're running a fairly old shitbox, and the thought of having to fork out even more money could be where all this negativity is stemming from.

Actually it's a fairly powerful rig, but it can only run on BeOS. Or I'm just an ATI/AMD fanboy? Did you think of that? I can't stand the thought of using anything NVIDIA or non-AMD. It just fills me with rage. Somehow that makes me feel closer to you, that last part.

You're right for once, they don't heavily rely on the hardware. Your point? Their goal right now is to get as much support as possible, more "only on PhysX" games will come later. "Good games" is subjective.

If I'm right about that then I'm kind of right about the rest too, you know. I mean that's pretty much what I've been getting at since the beginning. And "good games" being subjective is just you being a hypocrite. All games are good! Come on... Let's talk about commercially successful games that attain a vast popularity if you prefer (which isn't the same thing, but yields roughly the same results). And my point is that they're using the SDK and that it's what makes it compatible with the hardware, all that. The hardware's currently optional, not a requirement. Actually it will be, when these games come out. Basically going back to "that card won't be a must-have for most games before quite a while so I don't think it's worth it right now, and I'd wait before investing into one at all if I were you since the technology they use might not become an industry standard, thus possibly making it obsolete." It's been my point for a while really. You're being picky on everything and that's fine with me, but you're not disagreeing with that as far as I can tell? Because beyond all the quote by quote arguing I'm really just sticking to what I said in my first reply to Sparnage. I don't care much about the rest, this is what I'd like to hear your opinion on.

Wow, that completely changes everything! Now I see how invalid comparing a card doing processing in place of the CPU to another one is! Because the ones I'm comparing it to exist!

Yeah well, I guess you just don't understand. It's simply that the industry isn't the same than it was at the time. I believe that makes it difficult to reproduce 3DFX's story passed the "company comes out with a new kind of card" aspect, and I don't think that's just what you meant. Remember how 2D cards and 3D cards merged together? Well I see something like it happening very fast here instead of Ageia becoming a market leader for gaming hardware for several years. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but both the market and the industry are different than they were at the time.

No, their main strength is the hardware. Without it, their solution is no more impressive than other current offerings.

Is that so? I'm genuinely interested as to why you think so. Of course the hardware is very ambitious and that's what makes their solution special, but their middleware is what is quite successful right now, even among people that don't really plan to use the hardware (Sony?). I'm thinking that if they didn't have a strong SDK to begin with (NovodeX), they could have rather tried to make a more open card instead of relying on proprietary technology, that would have made it compatible with a lot more games. Their SDK is competitive on its own and it's what is giving them a base to market their hardware (did they buy Meqon so they'd work on the hardware?).

My my. Yes, I did actually read what you said, and no I'm not stupid. I'm unsure whether you misunderstood what I said, or why I said it, so I'll break it down for you

The point was why you said it, as it didn't really affect my reply to Sparnage (that the games he mentioned weren't compatible with PhysX). Looking back on it that response was a bit over the top since you were just correcting it though. Guess it's the troll emoticon or something.

 

[CnC]

We're quoting line for line, now, fellas?
Well allow me to take it to the next level.

WORD FOR WORD QUOTING!!!!

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can't

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well... you got me there. I concede the argument on that point.
Can we move on now?

 

[Aazealh]

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Word.

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Welcome to the Xander Zone!

 

[CnC]

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Well theres no friggin' point if you keep the letters in their original order!!! that takes out all the fun!

 

[Aazealh]

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'k.

 

[Walter]

Best/Worst thread ever.

 

[Sparnage]

This whole thing doesn't change much for me. If enough games follow the Ageia path then I will buy it still. The most valuable thing I learnt from this ungodly thread? If the Physx doesnt have enough following for me to justify buying, I can still play Cell factor without it whilst waiting for Nvidia or ATI to release a card with PPU capabilities for future games, assuming if games don't follow Ageia then they will with the familiar brands.

I don't see how it couldn't be fun. Physics appear to compliment gameplay, weapon and movement handling seems good, different playing options depending on characters individual strengths and weaknesses. Can't be sure until it's played but yeah, interesting to see what it will be like when it's released. Won't even bother attempting to work the demo on my current system now.

Oh and sorry to change the subject guys, continue.

 

[Aazealh]

Regarding what the hardware will change in Cell Factor I found this interview from IGN interesting:

IGN: So there's a crapload of stuff flying everywhere in this game. Are you guys going to require players to use a physics processor card?

DEV: No, we're not going to require it in this game. There's still a lot of people that don't have the hardware that would probably still like to play the game so what we're effectively doing is splitting the content down the middle. So some will require the hardware and then there's some that will only get some additional elements added to it when the card is present.

The reason that we can't have all the content available to those without the hardware is simply because some of it won't work on the software. It's not just that it'll be slower, it just won't work the same way. Stuff like cloth and fluids run really slow in software. Some of the destructible environment stuff is unstable without a lot of solver iterations. There are a lot of breakable joints and in order for them not to vibrate and fall apart you have a very high accuracy simulation which is expensive to simulate and there just isn't the level of accuracy to simulate it in software.

The game is going to have five levels… if you haven't realized, this is going to be a budget priced game here… some of which are going to require the hardware. The software levels will of course be playable with the hardware and have some enhancements available when the hardware is there. The thing about that is that since the game environment is different when hardware is present that we won't be able to let hardware and software users play in the same game. We'll have to make that distinction in the browser.

So it seems it'll be playable, but if you really want to enjoy Cell Factor to the fullest the PhysX card will be needed as they're really focusing on the physics to differentiate the game from other titles (no surprise here). Since it's a budget game I wouldn't be surprised if they actually bundled it with the card at its release. They also give some interesting precisions about online play, it seems that the number of objects in the game will have to be scaled down in order for it to work. Still, I hope these five levels are big, because that's not a lot.

Oh and sorry to change the subject guys, continue.

Oh come on, don't be like that! Support your thread man!

 

[Tiddlywinks]

*sigh* I concede.