Does it matter if the God Hand is dead?

Gurifisu

Sweet dreams, dear child of god.
The God Hand are basically the idea of evils way of interacting with the world to achieve humanitys desired result of an a so called purpose behind pain and suffering. The problem is if the God Hand dies, and even if the idea of evil is destroyed like some of you seem to think it can be (guts growing blond hair, having his eyes turn blue; becoming a super saijin and a german at the same time).

Even if all that happens, berserk is primarily an Existenial manga. Even if the idea fails to exist. The world and pain, absurd deaths ect... will still exist. The idea of evil is to me the joke of created meaning. Something like you wanted meaning well... guess what, now you have that desired meaning in the desired form.

Even if all of Guts dreams come true, he'll still just pop up daises when he dies. While the world remains the same, with or without the idea of evil.

Will he change people's minds with his sword? Changing a sword with a sword? The only charecter I can really see changing anything is Griffith (since the reasons behind getting a kingdom are fairly "good"). Even that I can't really see having that much of an effect (the good king).

If all evil is existinguished the world will simply revert into a world with absurd deaths, and no meaning. The evil man lives, and yet, the good man dies.

Actually in the berserk world their is no trully universal idea of evil or good (from what I've seen). It is merely a lump of subjective thoughts creating a desired world. You can critize me... I mainly just wanted to get up a good post (since my first one just asked for an avatar.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Hey Gurifisu. First off I'd like to ask you to make an effort on spelling in the future. I even had to correct the thread title. That would be appreciated so thanks in advance. Now about your post:

Gurifisu said:
Even if all that happens, berserk is primarily an Existenial manga. Even if the idea fails to exist. The world and pain, absurd deaths ect... will still exist. [...] Even if all of Guts dreams come true, he'll still just pop up daises when he dies. While the world remains the same, with or without the idea of evil. [...] The only charecter I can really see changing anything is Griffith (since the reasons behind getting a kingdom are fairly "good").

I think you're kind of forgetting something here dude. The world isn't the same with or without the Idea of Evil, although in appearance, the day to day routine is unchanged. Only the Idea of Evil creates God Hand members and apostles, and these guys have a tangible influence. Apostles terrorize people, and the God Hand is responsible for some pretty serious problems in the world, such as deadly cults (involving the sacrifice of human beings) or plagues. And that's not to mention how the Idea of Evil itself is taking liberties and doing more or less its own thing (it's only the embodiment of the bad feelings of mankind, not of the good ones, therefore it isn't doing what people really want), manipulating the world through Causality.

Also, the world is currently changing. The principles of the world, that define the way it works, are changing. That's because the God Hand is complete, and now that one of them walks the earth things aren't going to get any better. We can't guess the details of what will happen in the future, but we're already sure that it won't be good. Griffith won't change the world in a good way, no matter how it looks right now. And because he can interact with Griffith and possibly the rest of the God Hand in the future, Guts has the potential to undo what's being done, and to prevent a change in bad or help revert it.

The fact pain and death will still exist isn't really a big deal, if anything people would just need to accept them (especially knowing that death isn't the end of everything in the Berserk world). However, if the Idea of Evil were to disappear, maybe the Vortex of Souls would also do, and that could only be a good thing (no Hell anymore?).

Gurifisu said:
Actually in the berserk world their is no trully universal idea of evil or good (from what I've seen).

Uhh, what are you talking about? In the Berserk world there is a being called the Idea of Evil, and it is the closest thing to a God that we know of. The reach of its influence is supposedly very vast and at least applying to mankind as a whole, so I think it could be said to be "universal" in that regard, but your use of the term here is a bit perplexing. There's no Idea of Good, however.
 

Gurifisu

Sweet dreams, dear child of god.
Hey Gurifisu. First off I'd like to ask you to make an effort on spelling in the future. I even had to correct the thread title. That would be appreciated so thanks in advance.

I was tired, and usually I get home late.

Uhh, what are you talking about? In the Berserk world there is a being called the Idea of Evil, and it is the closest thing to a God that we know of. The reach of its influence is supposedly very vast and at least applying to mankind as a whole, so I think it could be said to be "universal" in that regard, but your use of the term here is a bit perplexing. There's no Idea of Good, however.

What I meant is... in "most" religions god is the one who creates us, and we are giving meaning through him. In this case they created an idea of evil, but where did the actual concept of evil come from. What I mean is... did an absolute term for evil exist... before they created the desired evil. If their was an absolute concept of evil before we created it... It can mean two things I can think of.
1. Their is a higher concept of all things (like evil) that goes beyond the idea of evil (like plato's forms).

2. The idea already existed, but we gave it form/molded it.

If those aren't true... then we created it; this evil idea. Then evil is only what they created :beast:, and so how would they know it was evil... since their was no absolute concept of it before they created it. That's what I meant when I said, their is no actual evil... only the meaning we created.

I think you're kind of forgetting something here dude. The world isn't the same with or without the Idea of Evil, although in appearance, the day to day routine is unchanged. Only the Idea of Evil creates God Hand members and apostles, and these guys have a tangible influence. Apostles terrorize people, and the God Hand is responsible for some pretty serious problems in the world, such as deadly cults (involving the sacrifice of human beings) or plagues. And that's not to mention how the Idea of Evil itself is taking liberties and doing more or less its own thing (it's only the embodiment of the bad feelings of mankind, not of the good ones, therefore it isn't doing what people really want), manipulating the world through Causality.

Also, the world is currently changing. The principles of the world, that define the way it works, are changing. That's because the God Hand is complete, and now that one of them walks the earth things aren't going to get any better. We can't guess the details of what will happen in the future, but we're already sure that it won't be good. Griffith won't change the world in a good way, no matter how it looks right now. And because he can interact with Griffith and possibly the rest of the God Hand in the future, Guts has the potential to undo what's being done, and to prevent a change in bad or help revert it.

The fact pain and death will still exist isn't really a big deal, if anything people would just need to accept them (especially knowing that death isn't the end of everything in the Berserk world). However, if the Idea of Evil were to disappear, maybe the Vortex of Souls would also do, and that could only be a good thing (no Hell anymore?).

What I'm saying is that if you kill the god hand (assuming they can be killed in the original sense, I don't know if they can or not)... the idea of evil can just make more. The idea of evil must have interacted with the world to create Void (it would make sense if he was the first).

If the idea of evil is somehow killed/destroyed, the humans that manifested that idea of evil still exist. So it can all happen again.

The fact pain and death will still exist isn't really a big deal, if anything people would just need to accept them (especially knowing that death isn't the end of everything in the Berserk world).

No, I'm pretty sure they accept it, but they want a reason behind it. They want something to give it meaning. If someone could give me the link to the idea of evil speech... I could give the quote of where I'm getting that from.

Oh, and how would knowing death isn't the end... help them? How would the average human even know for sure their's life after death.

I hope that clarified.
 
Gurifisu said:
No, I'm pretty sure they accept it, but they want a reason behind it. They want something to give it meaning. If someone could give me the link to the idea of evil speech... I could give the quote of where I'm getting that from.

http://arcticnightfall.com/ranemaka13/main.php?section=translations&trans=chapter83

There you go.

Gurifisu said:
Oh, and how would knowing death isn't the end... help them? How would the average human even know for sure their's life after death.

I may be wrong (and in which case, swift retribution will fall upon me), but i believe what Aaz was getting at was that the fear of death is a major contributer to the 'bad feelings' from which the Idea is supposedly made.

Maybe, if people started to look on life more positively, the Idea of Evil would become the Idea of Good?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
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Gurifisu said:
What I meant is... in "most" religions god is the one who creates us, and we are giving meaning through him. In this case they created an idea of evil, but where did the actual concept of evil come from. What I mean is... did an absolute term for evil exist... before they created the desired evil. If their was an absolute concept of evil before we created it... It can mean two things I can think of.

I think you're confused here. No, the Idea of Evil isn't an absolute God that created the world, but that doesn't make its own creation any harder to understand. It was born from the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness. There are 3 layers in the Berserk world: the Material World, the Astral World, and the Ideal World. The Idea of Evil was born and resides in the Ideal World. Now, where did the concept of evil come from? What does that have to do with anything? Evil exists in Berserk, it's present in mankind and existed possibly even before it. We don't have any information regarding the genesis of the Berserk world, so there's really not much to be said on the topic.

Gurifisu said:
That's what I meant when I said, their is no actual evil... only the meaning we created.

Yeah, that's typical "no evil/good" speech here (an old topic), and I'm afraid that's wrong. There is actual evil in Berserk, and characters call themselves evil, such as the aptly named Idea of Evil or the God Hand, or the apostles. If you want a definition of "evil" then just go by: "anything which impairs the happiness of a being or deprives a being of any good; anything which causes suffering of any kind to sentient beings; injury; mischief; harm." And if you want to know who defines what is "evil" in Berserk, the answer is Kentarou Miura. There's not much more to it than that. This kind of argument about "evil" can work in our world, but not in a fictional world where things are clearly labeled and defined.

Gurifisu said:
What I'm saying is that if you kill the god hand (assuming they can be killed in the original sense, I don't know if they can or not)... the idea of evil can just make more.

In theory yes, although it would take quite some time.

Gurifisu said:
If the idea of evil is somehow killed/destroyed, the humans that manifested that idea of evil still exist. So it can all happen again.

Actually those that created it are long dead, and the world has evolved since, just like mankind has. So while its re-creation isn't impossible, it would be very theorical. But you know, you didn't really address what I said. These entities aren't idle and doing nothing, they actively work to achieve some kind of "evil plan." Destroying them would be good in that regard, even if only because it would prevent them from succeeding. Whether it would only delay the inevitable or put a true end to things is another question, and one to which we won't have the answer before Berserk ends. There are really too many unknowns to form any coherent argumentation, but what's sure is that destroying the God Hand would have a big (and positive) impact on the world at short term.

Gurifisu said:
No, I'm pretty sure they accept it, but they want a reason behind it. They want something to give it meaning. If someone could give me the link to the idea of evil speech... I could give the quote of where I'm getting that from.

http://www.skullknight.net/idea/

You're mistaken about what I said though. Subconciously, people wanted reasons for their pain and misery, death, etc. That's why the Idea of Evil was born, or so it says itself (as it's a totally unreliable source). Now what does that mean, concretely? That people couldn't accept the simple fact that death happens, and that life is hard. In reality there's no need for a specific reason, men are just afraid of what they don't know. Once again I don't think it's hard to understand.

Gurifisu said:
Oh, and how would knowing death isn't the end... help them? How would the average human even know for sure their's life after death.

They could know because of the existence of magic in the world? The Idea of Evil and the God Hand don't seem to like magic users, and what a coincidence, there's almost none of them left. I think knowledge about the world people live in is the key to free themselves from their primitive fears. To know would help the average human relativize death.

Malachai said:
Maybe, if people started to look on life more positively, the Idea of Evil would become the Idea of Good?

I'm not a big fan of that idea (har har). Apart from all the arguments that people have had about it, I'd like to point this out: technically, if the desperate need for reasons to pain, death, etc is what led to the creation of the Idea of Evil, then what feelings would lead to the creation of the Idea of Good? Reasons for good things? I doubt it, because that's how humans are: when something good happens, they don't question themselves, are content and take it for granted, but when something bad happens, then they wonder why it did, and find it unjust. I don't think there's a real need for such a being, and by default the fact it's manipulative, secretive and deceitful makes it hard to be "good."
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Aazealh said:
You're mistaken about what I said though. Subconciously, people wanted reasons for their pain and misery, death, etc. That's why the Idea of Evil was born, or so it says itself (as it's a totally unreliable source)."
Did you mean this source is unreliable because The Idea said it directly or because this is all from the Lost Episode, the one episode that Miura chose not to include in the books. Unless there's some interview about it I haven't read, we are assuming the Lost Episode was excluded because it revealed to much to early. But (as much as I adore that episode) could we assume that episode might not have fit into the puzzle Miura is building, maybe he had to take it out because something wouldn't make sense in the future, no?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Oberi said:
Did you mean this source is unreliable because The Idea said it directly

Yes, because it said so itself. We have no way to know whether it was the truth or not, it's just what it decided to tell Griffith. Just FYI, I assume it to be true myself.

Oberi said:
Unless there's some interview about it I haven't read, we are assuming the Lost Episode was excluded because it revealed to much to early. But (as much as I adore that episode) could we assume that episode might not have fit into the puzzle Miura is building, maybe he had to take it out because something wouldn't make sense in the future, no?

It was excluded because it revealed too much about Berserk's God, and that Miura wanted it to remain mysterious. That "too early" part is debatable as we're not sure Miura will ever reveal so much about the Idea of Evil again (we can only hope I guess). And it's definitely possible that Miura might change something and make it work differently than what's said in episode 83. We just assume that it isn't the case since nothing has contradicted what's in it so far.
 

Gurifisu

Sweet dreams, dear child of god.
You're mistaken about what I said though. Subconsciously, people wanted reasons for their pain and misery, death, etc.

That's what I said/meant, or were you just correcting what I thought you said?
No, the Idea of Evil isn't an absolute God that created the world,

No, no, I wasn't making that point... what I was trying to say is that berserk has existential themes, but in fact for a "true" evil idea to be (if it really is evil)... their would need to be an inlaid concept of evil. Making it not truly existential (if it is truly evil, instead of just a being called evil). I was wondering if that was a plot hole or something like that.

Thoughts seem to be pretty powerful... I wonder what different kinds of beings would be created with different mixes (just in theory).

I never liked the idea of good either (for same reasons, and others), it's a dark brutal world, and there's just way more things that in the berserk world that lead you to think it's evil... not alto of good. Even characters that you think are pure, :judo: usually still kill things. Is that good?
 

Aazealh

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Gurifisu said:
That's what I said/meant, or were you just correcting what I thought you said?

I explained you why I don't think they "accept" these things serenely, and why that results in them unconsciously desiring reasons for what they can't understand.

Gurifisu said:
No, no, I wasn't making that point...

Uhh yeah, I know, I was agreeing with you on that particular point. Since your sentence was negative, to agree I replied by the negative.

Gurifisu said:
what I was trying to say is that berserk has existential themes, but in fact for a "true" evil idea to be (if it really is evil)... their would need to be an inlaid concept of evil. Making it not truly existential (if it is truly evil, instead of just a being called evil). I was wondering if that was a plot hole or something like that.

Well Berserk is definitely not an apology of existentialism. People in Berserk aren't entirely free of their actions, nor entirely responsible of what they do considering certain circumstances. And when given the choice they usually do evil things, recognized as such by everybody, including themselves. In fact Guts himself struggles to be able to make his own choices while pretty much everything goes against it. That's the whole deal with Causality. And I don't think you paid attention to what I said in my previous posts... The inherent concepts of good and evil in Berserk are defined by its author, Kentarou Miura. It's just a work of fiction, remember. There is no doubt that the Idea of Evil is evil simply because it calls itself that way. It defines itself as the embodiment of evil. It's its name for god's sake! And the same goes for the God Hand, its members have always been labeling themselves as evil. I don't know what the big deal is here. There's no plot hole, I don't even understand why you think that could make for one.

It seems to me that you want to find out whether evil exists as a constant in the Berserk world or whether it's a purely subjective notion. Well the answer is that it exists as a constant, even though what makes evil may differ depending of a character's point of view. But we know that some things in Berserk are evil and some are not, from outside its world. Now, how evil "appeared" in the Berserk world is another question, to which we don't have the answer. Like I said earlier, we have absolutely no knowledge of the genesis of the world in Berserk. Maybe evil was created by mankind or together with it (and no it's not subjective evil if the author decides it so, because we're outside the world in question and these things are clearly defined to us), maybe not. We don't even know when humanity developed itself, so that's really too speculative to make any serious assumption. What we can reasonably assume however is that the concept of Evil goes beyond the character called the "Idea of Evil." But it (the Idea of Evil) is the ultimate personification of that concept. Maybe that was your real question?

To shortly elaborate in a more presuming tone, if we take into consideration the fact that the kanji for "Idea" in "Idea of Evil" bears the meaning "origin/source," we know that it considers itself the true root of Evil. That would tend to imply that "Evil" is something mankind is responsible for, since the Idea of Evil itself is the manifestation of the dark side of mankind's collective consciousness. Therefore we could assume that it's a concept that has always existed (or at least since the appearance of "Evil" in the world), but that gained sentience at some point in time.

On a side note, don't forget that even though there's a "World of Ideas" in Berserk, it doesn't mean it completely follows the theory of Platonic Idealism (for example). It's only what Miura decides it to be, and unfortunately we know next to nothing about it. The simple facts that the Idea of Evil is sentient, was created by mankind, and has a form instead of being totally abstract make it clear. And these same reasons can be related to episode 83's eviction from the manga. It defines the Idea of Evil quite clearly and strongly anchors it in the Berserk world. Maybe a bit too much. In the same vein, because the Idea of Evil calls itself so doesn't mean it's what it truly is instead of the role it strives to assume.

Gurifisu said:
Thoughts seem to be pretty powerful... I wonder what different kinds of beings would be created with different mixes (just in theory).

Haha, that's a question you'll never get any answer to, I'm afraid.

Gurifisu said:
I never liked the idea of good either (for same reasons, and others), it's a dark brutal world, and there's just way more things that in the berserk world that lead you to think it's evil... not alto of good. Even characters that you think are pure, :judo: usually still kill things. Is that good?

There are pure and good beings in Berserk, elves are the first example that comes to mind. They're described as fundamentally good. There are also good people, like Luca. That doesn't make for an "Idea of Good" though. It's just some simplistic reasoning people come up with because, you know, since there's the Idea of Evil, there must be the Idea of Good!
 

Gurifisu

Sweet dreams, dear child of god.
there are pure and good beings in Berserk, elves are the first example that comes to mind. They're described as fundamentally good. There are also good people, like Luca. That doesn't make for an "Idea of Good" though. It's just some simplistic reasoning people come up with because, you know, since there's the Idea of Evil, there must be the Idea of Good!

I agree with what you said... on a side note though I wouldn't like the idea of good to be created... from a pure view that if it was... since Miura seems to do a pretty good job with that. I'd hate for it to go completely good idea vs. bad idea. Would be to predictable, and so far the story isn't.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
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Gurifisu said:
I wouldn't like the idea of good to be created... [...] I'd hate for it to go completely good idea vs. bad idea.

Well don't worry, that isn't a likely occurrence in any case.
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
Does it matter if the GodHand dies? Yes and no.

I do agree that the current 'plan' of the GodHand is in no wise good. They are, after all, humans who sacrificed what was most dear to them and became demons. Also, I could be mistaken, but is not their guiding mantra similar to that of the apostles' thelemic creed of 'Do as thou wilt'? Left to their own devices, even after their 'plan' is carried out, is it entirely unlikely that the GodHand will continue finding ways to make humanity's darkest fears and desires a reality? Moreover, people could only call it an Age of Darkness afterwards if it ends. Thus, it is likely that the current GodHand will either die or be thwarted in their plans.

On the other hand(pun intended), Idea could just recirculate the Crimson Behelit and create more GodHand members to carry out the desire of mankind. The deaths of the current five is of limited cosmological importance.
 

Aazealh

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Trashcan said:
Also, I could be mistaken, but is not their guiding mantra similar to that of the apostles' thelemic creed of 'Do as thou wilt'?

Well, you're going a bit far. The Idea of Evil said so to Griffith when he became Femto, but that doesn't make it a "mantra." In any case, whatever each individual member of the God Hand does on his own is probably calculated by the Idea of Evil to advance its plans.

Trashcan said:
Left to their own devices, even after their 'plan' is carried out, is it entirely unlikely that the GodHand will continue finding ways to make humanity's darkest fears and desires a reality?

You're assuming that the plan isn't related to humanity being constantly miserable in the first place. Also, if you want to be specific the Idea of Evil was born to give humans reasons for what they didn't understand (according to itself). That's not the same as "the God Hand making humanity's darkest fears and desires a reality." I know it sounds cool and all, but that's the kind of nuance that can make a big difference when speculating.

Trashcan said:
Moreover, people could only call it an Age of Darkness afterwards if it ends.

No, why would that be? We're calling our current time-period the "Space Age," I don't see why people in Berserk couldn't do the same when realizing how grim their future is. You're putting artificial restrictions on a relatively trivial line here, and drawing hasty conclusions that don't actually have any ground. Plus there's the context, remember who speaks that line and when.

Trashcan said:
On the other hand(pun intended), Idea could just recirculate the Crimson Beherit and create more GodHand members to carry out the desire of mankind. The deaths of the current five is of limited cosmological importance.

The God Hand doesn't really appear to be carrying out the desire of mankind, and no matter how you look at it, it wouldn't be benign for it to be destroyed. Create 5 new members, wait another 1000 years, and all of what this implies... It's not a walk in the park, even for the Idea of Evil. Not to mention that the God Hand has some influence over the world, their death would disrupt it.
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
Sorry, I always figured that the GodHand's influence in the Physical world was directly related to Idea fulfilling humanity's desire for a reason. Since the human ego cannot exist in the Ideal world, and since Idea cannot project itself even as far as the Astral, it needs proxies. Enter the GodHand. They cannot project themselves directly into the physical world, since they lack true physical forms, however they can manifest themselves through the forms of things within the Physical world, viz. a horde of rats. This limited interaction with the Physical world hampered their ability to carry out Idea's will as well as their own, so they bring those ordained by causality to the Nexus in order to guide them through the processs of rationalization that leads them to sacrifice their most precious thing. In return, they become an apostle, with a monstrous body that doesn't die easily, and are commanded to do as they will. Since they possess an evil nature, they are naturally inclined to do evil acts. This increases the overall misery, anguish, and despair in the human population, encouraging them to believe in Evil as a real force, having the power to negatively affect their destinies. As this satisfies the conditional obligation that Idea's existance necessitates, Idea is left free to pursue its own interests more closely. That, at least, is how I understood it. Where am I mistaken?
 

Aazealh

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Trashcan said:
Sorry, I always figured that the GodHand's influence in the Physical world was directly related to Idea fulfilling humanity's desire for a reason.

Well that's correct, but it's not where the problem lies. It's the way you're wording it that's wrong. Just see what I said about it in my previous post. And the Idea of Evil provides a reason for all the bad things happening in the world simply by existing.

Trashcan said:
Since the human ego cannot exist in the Ideal world

To be clear: it's not possible individually, but as a collective consciousness it is.

Trashcan said:
they become an apostle, with a monstrous body that doesn't die easily, and are commanded to do as they will.

They're not "commanded" to do as they will... That'd be kind of contradictory.

Trashcan said:
This increases the overall misery, anguish, and despair in the human population, encouraging them to believe in Evil as a real force, having the power to negatively affect their destinies. As this satisfies the conditional obligation that Idea's existance necessitates, Idea is left free to pursue its own interests more closely.

I don't quite see how you can come to such a conclusion. First off what makes you think misery and despair make people believe into Evil as a real force? It just makes them believe into misery and despair, and how life is unfair and whatever else, but they don't get to revere evil itself as a tangible force because bad things happen to them (on the contrary, they ignore why things in general happen, so they apparently tend to question it on a deeply subconscious level, and this questioning is what brought the Idea of Evil into existence long ago). There's no real basis for that assumption as far as I can tell. Second, what is this conditional obligation you're talking about? What's the ground you're basing that statement on? Nowhere in the manga is any condition for the Idea of Evil's existence mentioned, and if there was one it'd more likely be the existence of the Vortex of Souls, which from what Puck says in volume 3 seems to be regrouping almost all the "evil" in the world. As for the Idea of Evil's own interests, for all we know it's simply to make mankind permanently and universally miserable, fulfilling its assigned role with an obligatorily evil twist thrown in.
 

Death May Die

"That day you left, that's when I knew."
My head! Ouch.

Are you saying that the whole story is in effort towards changing some thing, that can't be changed? Or maybe your saying the "Idea" being cannot be destroyed.

Either way, I don't think story has every attempted to do either. Destroying every being of evil is impossible. Although Guts kills towards the God Hand doesn't even mean he is also trying to kill the "Idea" being. Infact, I think Guts would pass up killing the apostles and the four other members of God hand just to kill Griffith.

How ever I don't think its impossible for Guts to reach the "Idea" being. Because it is a material form. Infact. Its flesh. So even though this being be the devil, or not. It is a lump of flesh with a mind. Meaning likely it can be killed. Which I think shows evidence that it isn't a highly being on a level of "Godliness" just a higher player in fate. For even the Devil has a fate under God.
 
Uhh.. this might sound dumb, but if there is an Idea of Evil why isn't there an Idea of Good?
I mean, would something in the Ideal World which opposes the Idea of Evil be the Idea of Good?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Death May Die said:
How ever I don't think its impossible for Guts to reach the "Idea" being. Because it is a material form. Infact. Its flesh. So even though this being be the devil, or not. It is a lump of flesh with a mind. Meaning likely it can be killed. Which I think shows evidence that it isn't a highly being on a level of "Godliness" just a higher player in fate. For even the Devil has a fate under God.

The Idea of Evil isn't the "Devil," it's the God of the Berserk world. You shouldn't think of it in a Judeo-Christian way. There's nothing higher than it as far as we know, and even then it's not omnipotent and it didn't create the world. You're also seriously misusing the concept of fate here. Anyway, the Idea of Evil does NOT, in fact, have a material form. It's an Ideal being, existing in the Ideal world. It has an appearance in that world, but that doesn't mean Guts could come down there and touch it, much less harm it with a weapon. And similarly, the Idea of Evil can't interact directly with the material world, that's why it created the God Hand which in turn creates apostles.

Guts has a material form in the Corporeal world. In the Spiritual world he's only an ethereal being. And in the Ideal world, he's simply an ego. And then, you should remember what Flora said in volume 24: that nobody could ever go beyond the Vortex of Souls and come back. That's because their ego would dissolve itself and fuse in the Vortex of Souls at that level, before they'd even reach the Idea of Evil's location. The only ones we know that can do it are the members of the God Hand at the time of their transformation, and that's because they're supposed to go there in the first place (i.e. they're not intruding). Now, even assuming Guts got there, how would he kill the Idea of Evil? It's a giant entity and it's got incredible power, meanwhile a human going down there would have his soul exposed and nothing to fight with. So what's he supposed to do? Punch one of its giant eyes?

chaoscontrol said:
Uhh.. this might sound dumb, but if there is an Idea of Evil why isn't there an Idea of Good?
I mean, would something in the Ideal World which opposes the Idea of Evil be the Idea of Good?

There's no Idea of Good that we know of. Something "opposing" the Idea of Evil would be the good part of the human collective consciousness. However, because the evil part ended up developping a mind/personality doesn't mean the good part did the same, especially since it seems to be underwhelming in comparison. As things stand now, we're assuming that nothing effectively opposes the Idea of Evil. Anyway, it's not like we know all that much about what happens on the Ideal level, so you shouldn't expect to get a precise explanation of how it all works for now. Just wait until more is revealed in the manga.
 
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