Episode 283

[CnC]

If Guts' weapon or Guts in general has the means to hurt Griffith, why doesn't Skullknight just swoop in all quick like and do it? We have seen thus far that he has much more experiencing utilizing his weapon in a way that Guts at this time cannot. I'm sure he could find a way to get by Griffith's apostle Lieutenants to get to him.

You mean SK using the DS? Dunno if I can see that happening.
But if Skully fights on par with Zodd (if only slightly better) then its safe to assume he might have some difficulty fighting his way through Zodd and an entire army of apostles. Plus Sonja can probably see it coming (man I'm getting geeky with this).

 

[Griffith]

If Guts' weapon or Guts in general has the means to hurt Griffith, why doesn't Skullknight just swoop in all quick like and do it? We have seen thus far that he has much more experiencing utilizing his weapon in a way that Guts at this time cannot. I'm sure he could find a way to get by Griffith's apostle Lieutenants to get to him.

Well, Guts isn't Skull Knight for one thing, so that's sort of an odd question. =)

But my point is that the past several volumes, since the introduction of Schierke basically, have made a concerted effort to establish some sort of reason behind the supernatural elements in the series, to ground it in some kind of reality. Supernatural creatures aren't just that anymore, they have their own limitations, rules they must play by, and rules Guts can play by as well to conquer them (just like a regular fight). This is certainly better than Guts previous outlook when such creatures, like Slan for example, were basically untouchable Gods to him.

 

[Walter]

If Guts' weapon or Guts in general has the means to hurt Griffith, why doesn't Skullknight just swoop in all quick like and do it?

Clearly Skully has his own reasons for when he chooses to intervene. Why'd he just stand on the hill and point during Griffith's reincarnation? There aren't answers to these questions yet. But I don't think it's a question of whether he COULD slice through Griffith's neck - it's what the consequences would be.

 

[Griffith]

Clearly Skully has his own reasons for when he chooses to intervene. Why'd he just stand on the hill and point during Griffith's reincarnation?

Cause he'd get beat down bad and he knows it? =)

"Cracked-Skull Knight doesn't have the same ring to it."

There aren't answers to these questions yet. But I don't think it's a question of whether he COULD slice through Griffith's neck - it's what the consequences would be.

Well, I still think it's a question whether he could or not, aside from something like fate holding back his hand. I'm certainly not saying Guts can either on a "level playing field" (theoretically, Skully's sword should be even more specialized and badass unless there's some extenuating circumstances we aren't aware of), but, as Skully said, with that sword it's possible. The missing key is Schierke, though.

Griffith's worst nightmare! ​

 

[SaiyajinNoOuji]

You mean SK using the DS? Dunno if I can see that happening.
But if Skully fights on par with Zodd (if only slightly better) then its safe to assume he might have some difficulty fighting his way through Zodd and an entire army of apostles. Plus Sonja can probably see it coming (man I'm getting geeky with this).

I guess I need to make a bit clearer.

With in these past Volumes we have seen Guts' sword have the ability to hurt Apostles on a whole extra level due to Guts fighting them over the course of years. With that knowledge, Skullknight has been doing it for a pretty damn long time and its pretty evident that he has transcended to a whole level(s) then Guts. Not just his body but more then likely his weapon.

So right down to the point of.. If Guts' weapon has gotten enough magic energy in it to hurt God Hands avatars and apostles on there level of existence over the course of a few years, think about what Skullknights has turned into over the course of a few hundred years.

But I do agree with Griffith No More that SK probably knows that his chances wouldn't fare so good against Griffith then again although we have seen SK fight we don't know if that is truly the extent of his abilities but even so, they probably don't come to close to a God Hand member.

 

[Walter]

This is really diverging from the topic at hand. That said, there's no way we can know the properties of SK's sword. Just because Guts' travels through the interstice and the slaying of apostles have imbued it with certain properties doesn't mean the same applies to SK's sword. For all we know, it could be a beast of a different nature (I'd actually hope so, to keep the DS unique).

Indeed, SK's sword even has the ability to transmute itself with Beherits. Comparing it to the DS seems really awkward, TO ME.

PS: Man, Saiya you've really got to work on your spelling and punctuation errors. They're hurting my eyes.

 

[Griffith]

Indeed, SK's sword even has the ability to transmute itself with Beherits. Comparing it to the DS seems really awkward.

How so? Like you said, they've both been going around slicing up ethereal beings; all things being equal, it's not illogical to, at least, consider the same possibility for Skully (there's already plenty of parallels between them on their path to Hell =). And the ability to to transmute with Beherits isn't necessarily a special ability of the sword's so much as of Skull Knight. Maybe he could stick ANYTHING down there and it would come out covered in Beherits?

 

[Walter]

How so? Like you said, they've both been going around slicing up ethereal beings; all things being equal, it's not illogical to, at least, consider the same possibility for Skully (there's already plenty of parallels between them on their path to Hell =). And the ability to to transmute with Beherits isn't necessarily a special ability of the sword's so much as of Skull Knight. Maybe he could stick ANYTHING down there and it would come out covered in Beherits?

Well, Guts isn't Skull Knight for one thing

 

[Griffith]

"Is it intentional?"​

What does quoting throwaway lines of mine out context prove? I'd much rather hear a fact that suggests a possibility one way or another. It seems like you're basically calling a fair and superficial comparison, a natural one even, awkward based on a whim. In any case, there's no reason to exclude things or narrow possibilities based on personal dogma.

 

[Walter]

A FACT that demonstrates a point in this extremely hypothetical conversation about a sword we know next to nothing about? Well, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I was just airing on the side of caution here. We can't know and don't know. And other than the fact they've both been slaughtering apostles for several years, no comparison can be made between their swords and thus no reason to assume they have an affinity - other than convienance I guess?

But you're right... it could be!

For all practical purposes, both swords are powerful. SK's sword cuts through shit like butter. Does that mean it can damage a spiritual body like Ganishka's projection for example? Who knows? Like I said in my edited post, I'd like to think Guts' and his arsenal, by virtue of his unique character and disposition, will also remain unique.

How'd SK get thrown into this mix anyway? We had a good thing going analyzing how Guts has been climbing the ladder through Schierke's expertise.

 

[Griffith]

A FACT that demonstrates a point in this extremely hypothetical conversation about a sword we know next to nothing about? Well, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I was just airing on the side of caution here.

Then why define things like that at all, or poopoo certain possibilities for arbitrary reasons? The DS can be similar to SK's sword in certain general ethereal aspects, such as their experiences in the astral world and the effects, and still hold their own unique properties. I'm not trying to make some kind of exact definition, just speculate on something that seems a likely possibility given what we know.

We can't know and don't know. And other than the fact they've both been slaughtering apostles for several years, no comparison can be made between their swords and thus no reason to assume they have an affinity - other than convienance I guess?

Why can't basic comparisons be made and speculated upon? These swords have gone through similar experiences, and may, MAY, now work similarly, even in the most general sense of functionality within the astral realm (and yes, for all we know, Skully's sword had some magical property to begin with, but we don't). What reason is there to frown upon the possibility? Not knowing anything for sure is even more reason not to try and make any solid definitions at this time, if we're erring on the side of caution.

For all practical purposes, both swords are powerful. SK's sword cuts through shit like butter. Does that mean it can damage a spiritual body like Ganishka's projection for example? Who knows? Like I said in my edited post, I'd like to think Guts' and his arsenal, by virtue of his unique character and disposition, will also remain unique.

Like I said, they can be similar without being the same, I'm all for complexity. I honestly think our disagreement lies in the details; I'm speaking very generally about astral world properties and definitions more than the exact powers of the swords; I'm not trying to say that the DS is just Skully's Sword 2, just something more subtle between them and the workings of the astral realm.

How'd SK get thrown into this mix anyway? We had a good thing going analyzing how Guts has been climbing the ladder through Schierke's expertise.

Well, that's where I wanted to go, was preparing a nice write up on it, but oh well. =)

 

[Walter]

Probably should have elaborated and could have avoided this whole mess. We're really in agreeance, our opinions don't differ.
[quote author=Walter]Just because Guts' travels through the interstice and the slaying of apostles have imbued it with certain properties doesn't mean the same applies to SK's sword. For all we know, it could be a beast of a different nature[/quote]
What I'm saying is, the properties in SK's sword could be dramatically different - especially as Skully himself is possibly a very different type of creature. Have we ever seen anything on his "body" that looked organic? The interstice could affect him totally differently because of this, or not at all.

 

[Serpico]

I definitely agree to the potential of Skullknights sword to have also been imbued with an aura.

I have a suspicion though, that as Walter thinks, the DS is somehow unique. Possible reasons for them differentiating;

1 - the materials are different - we know silver has a different aura, and maybe Skullknight uses a silver sword, or maybe the DS material is more absorbant to such things
2 - this is less likely, but the sheer size and thickness of the DS means it could hold a more massive quantity
3 - Flora may have sealed Skullknights brand (assuming he has one) so he did not have to kill hundreds of ghosts every night for years, maybe they are more the key rather than the apostles blood and aura
4 - the DS material possibly came from an old elf home which could have many implications

there are probably more that others can think up.

While I agree logically with GNM's reasoning, Zodd, SK, and Shierke all noted the DS as unique or incredible. And while feeling that, I also have the sense Skully would whip Ganishka if he really had to. I don't think that is his battle though. In my mind, having 50 beherits around your sword should give it an automatic tie to the ethereal, although it does make it so its not very sharp anymore.

 

[SaiyajinNoOuji]

In my mind, having 50 beherits around your sword should give it an automatic tie to the ethereal, although it does make it so its not very sharp anymore.

I know everyone doesn't want this to get off-topic so much but who cares about sharpness when he can cut the fabric of reality and just have everything from the other realms get sucked back into where it came from?

 

[Aazealh]

Could Ganishka just be a "magic fog decoy" this Episode... is that the secret he was talking about?

Like Walter said there's no way to know for sure at this point, but what we can assert with some certainty is that it has trait to the nature of his magic and how it functions.

That would explain how he instantly assumed his fog form in 282 and back at the Demon City, by realeasing huge amounts of it which could be stored inside his body for his personal use.

That's unlikely, because in episode 234 his body morphed into fog instantly, without him doing anything. Then he quasi-instantly appeared as a giant face in the sky.

it strikes me as odd that he usually starts breathing fog when he becomes exited for some reason. Also his armor and mouth seemed to be leaking fog when Griffith confronted him at 282.

Excluding what happened in episode 282, a lot of apostles breathe some similar looking vapor when they get excited/angry.

Drawing the enemy to a contained location and finishing him off without (so far anyway) involving human armies.

I think he might requisition the Holy See alliance to deal with the humongous Kushan armies themselves, while the demon soldiers will battle it out with Ganishka's minions in Wyndham.

Let's also be honest about what happened in Vritannis: Guts & co played a big role in saving the town. If they hadn't intervened the Kushans would have ravaged everything before Zodd and his friends showed up. The nobles would be dead, Ganishka would have had a lot more freedom in blasting stuff left and right, etc. The only one Griffith really made an effort to protect was the Pontiff.

If Guts' weapon or Guts in general has the means to hurt Griffith, why doesn't Skullknight just swoop in all quick like and do it?

Skull Knight isn't like Guts. He's not impulsive, he's a watcher. He knows of causality, and that there are obscure powers at work all around him. I think he's not trying to kill Griffith because the time isn't right yet for what he wants to do. It's just not the right moment. Not that it'd be particularly easy for him to kill Griffith now anyway, but I'm pretty sure he's got ulterior motives. To beat a God at its own game (talking about the Idea of Evil here) you have to be really very calculating, and after having lived a thousand years I'm sure patience has become a part of you.

Cause he'd get beat down bad and he knows it? =) [...] I still think it's a question whether he could or not, aside from something like fate holding back his hand.

Let's think about volume 9 though. SK already knew back then. He knew the Eclipse would happen, and he knew it'd be for Griffith. Slaying him wouldn't have been a problem at that time as far as we can know. And who knows for how long he had been aware of it too. He might even have been lurking in the shadows when Griffith found his beherit as a kid. So while right now the situation isn't propitious to attempt to Griff's life, I think it goes far beyond that simple matter.

The way I see it, and now I'm just speculating, SK's trying to topple all the God Hand at once. To end things once and for all and not just deal a blow that'd only delay the inevitable. How he could plan such a thing, and then actually do it, I have no idea (except that it'd involve Guts).

And the ability to to transmute with Beherits isn't necessarily a special ability of the sword's so much as of Skull Knight. Maybe he could stick ANYTHING down there and it would come out covered in Beherits?

Actually, I do think he could stick anything down his mouth and that it'd come out covered in beherits.

Have we ever seen anything on his "body" that looked organic? The interstice could affect him totally differently because of this, or not at all.

What's for sure is that he's much deeper in the Interstice than Guts. In fact, a part of him may very well be purely astral, with only his armor and equipment having a material form of their own.

1 - the materials are different - we know silver has a different aura, and maybe Skullknight uses a silver sword

Why would SK use a silver sword? Silver isn't a very good metal for weapons, and if it's a magical weapon anyway, or if it's imbued like the DS is, then being in silver or not is unlikely to matter much, if at all.

4 - the DS material possibly came from an old elf home which could have many implications

That's a completely baseless assumption. There's really no reason to believe the DS could be made out of anything but "standard" metal (in fact it's pretty unlikely, since Godot had already forged the DS before he came to live where Guts met him). Nor that forging a sword with ore from a cave in which elves used to live would make the weapon any better, see what happened to the first sword Godot made for Guts. If the DS ever had an elfin aura Puck would have noticed it anyway, and the DS' current aura, which results from its prolonged career of killing evil beings, is the exact opposite of what an elfin aura would be. No really, I don't think this should even be mentioned.

It's interesting to note in regard to the recent discussion that Puck did notice an elfin aura on SK (and by extension his equipment), which could imply that his weapon didn't undergo the same transformation the DS did. But that's taking the little information we get from that scene a bit far.

who cares about sharpness when he can cut the fabric of reality and just have everything from the other realms get sucked back into where it came from?

Actually that's not exactly what his sword does. Of course it does cut through the layers of the world, but the suction part is often misunderstood. When Slan was cast off from the Qliphoth, the place started to collapse over itself. SK then used his beherit-sword technique to open a gateway directly to the Vortex of Souls. This part is very important, because that's why everything got sucked in. The Vortex just swallowed the whole place since it was a bastion of evil. But when he just transported Guts outside to his friends, nothing specific happened. He cut space at some place and came out at another, and that was it.

 

[Proj2501]

It's interesting to note in regard to the recent discussion that Puck did notice an elfin aura on SK (and by extension his equipment), which could imply that his weapon didn't undergo the same transformation the DS did. But that's taking the little information we get from that scene a bit far.

From what we know anyways, SK once wore the armor that Guts has on now. And the former owner (SK) died. As for how the hell SK lives on in his current armor now...well, who was it who told Guts how powerful the Elf King was on the beach that night and how would he know? As has been discussed the Elf King is most likely responsible for Skully's current condition (allowing, I guess you can say the 'soul' of Skully to live on in the armor he now wears). Puck was most likely picking up an aura SK got way back when in Elfhelm.

Or it could just be from Evarella, being that Skully used to shoot the shit with Flora. But then again Evarella didn't recognize him on the beach that one night. So who knows...

 

[Aazealh]

Puck was most likely picking up an aura SK got way back when in Elfhelm.

Yeah, thanks for making a post to state that, you know, in case I had forgotten. It's Ok, you're still my buddy. =P

That wasn't really my point though, I was talking about his equipment specifically. His armor and sword in relation to the change the Dragon Slayer underwent over Guts' years as the Black Swordsman. But like I said, it's a bit of a stretch to assume things from so little information, so don't take it too seriously.

Or it could just be from Evarella, being that Skully used to shoot the shit with Flora.

Nah, I really don't think so.

 

[initialdproject]

From what I remember SK's goal is viod. Doubt he'd risk himself on Griff. Don't think he would care if he was alive or dead if he killed void either, just something about revenge.

 

[Aazealh]

From what I remember SK's goal is viod. [...] Don't think he would care if he was alive or dead if he killed void either, just something about revenge.

Where is that said in the manga? Because I don't remember reading it.

 

[initialdproject]

Where is that said in the manga? Because I don't remember reading it.

eh, it's not. But if I remember correctly he attacks void in the eclipse and there are a number of theories that tie the two together. I might be wrong

 

[Walter]

eh, it's not. But if I remember correctly he attacks void in the eclipse and there are a number of theories that tie the two together. I might be wrong

It's just a hunch, and it's not based on any real evidence. In fact there's more evidence that SK's goal is to oppose the God Hand as a group - not one specifically. Check out his line in 221 just before he uses the Yobimizu no Tsurugi.:

Skull Knight: This was something I intended to wield solely for the purpose of entombing those beings in the absymal vortex.

Guts: What do you think you're doing!? We don't have time for magic tricks...!

And in vol 18, he says he stands against Evil. Not, "I stand against the brainy guy."

 

[creampuff_war]

sorry to jump in with a reply to an off topic post, but I still hold the belief that while Skully may have a feud with the entire Godhand, his chief focus is on Void.

It's been a while since I read the volume where Skully saves Guts and Caska, but I do remember reading something about Skully saying his fight is with Void (maybe when he's talking to Zodd outside the eclipse). But this was apparently a mistranslation, if I recall correctly....

anyway

Mistranslation or not, I still say it's no coincidence that as soon as Skully crashes into the eclipse, we get a CLOSE UP of Void and a CLOSE UP of Skullknight. The scene screams of a past between the two of them.

now, I'll get back to my lurking.

 

[Aazealh]

It's been a while since I read the volume where Skully saves Guts and Casca, but I do remember reading something about Skully saying his fight is with Void (maybe when he's talking to Zodd outside the eclipse). But this was apparently a mistranslation, if I recall correctly...

Since you correctly recall that it's a gross mistranslation, why even bother to post it at all?

I still say it's no coincidence that as soon as Skully crashes into the eclipse, we get a CLOSE UP of Void and a CLOSE UP of Skullknight. The scene screams of a past between the two of them.

Oh yeah, that's definite evidence. A close-up of 2 utterly emotionless faces. You know, I think everybody agrees that there's a possibility Void and SK might have a history together. That's an idea that's been around since the beginning of times as far as this community is concerned. But right now there's no solid evidence to back up the hypothesis that SK would somehow care primarily about Void and only secondarily about the others. This shot during the Eclipse is the only thing people can stand on to try to justify the idea, and it's not a proof of anything in itself.

 

[creampuff_war]

Neither character can display emotion, that's why the close ups were used.

As skeptical as I am about most theories, the close up drawings are proof enough for me. call me a dreamer.

and I posted the info about the mistranslation because it may have escaped other people's common berserk knowledge...I do like to see the people informed.

 

[Aazealh]

Neither character can display emotion, that's why the close ups were used.

Please don't word your guesses so affirmatively, especially if you're repeating what I just said.

and I posted the info about the mistranslation because it may have escaped other people's common berserk knowledge...I do like to see the people informed.

Well, you're not exactly the most informed person around yourself, so I wouldn't worry about others too much if I were you.