Episode 295

[vlad]

First off, kudos Aaz for taking the time to address this at length, great input and explanations.
I'd like to explore this part a bit futher:

This reminds me of something else Flora said back in volume 24. She mentioned how some beings have gigantic astral bodies that can't even be compared to humans' ethereal bodies. The reference is vague and not directly related to the God Hand or anything as she mentions it before the area where the Vortex of Souls exists (could refer to the four elemental kings or simply to powerful spirits in general), but it's reminiscent of Ganishka's current colossal body to me. It's interesting to see the body that such huge power resulted in when brought forth forcefully, and it can help explain why the incarnation of a member of the God Hand is a "once in a millennium" event, and why they can't (couldn't) easily materialize into the corporeal world in general. To cram an enormous, mind-boggling amount of spiritual power into a normal-sized body must be extremely difficult and complicated.

What I'm wondering is this; if Ganishka has merged/infused such a being would it entail that it's conciseness was in there as well, and if so could it follow some sort of own agenda? I realise that it's difficult to speculate given that we don't know much about Idea's plan to begin with but could it be that there are other entities that could threaten or at least pose a bigger problem for Griffith and by extention for the Idea of Evil.

 

[dimasok]

there are other entities that could threaten or at least pose a bigger problem for Griffith and by extention for the Idea of Evil.

Not really. There is nothing above the laws of causality themselves...

 

[Aazealh]

I don't see these other explicit goals that Griffith is after, not yet anyway. What are they?

Well that's the point. He hasn't revealed any other goal so far. It's just pure deduction that leads us to suspect that there's more to it than that. He wanted a kingdom when he was still human, but after becoming Femto, his view of life must have changed dramatically. The scope of things isn't the same anymore to him. So to think that after that, he would still only care about this kingdom he dreamed of as a child seems too simple. Too easy. He's not an over-ambitious young man that started from nothing anymore, he's a demon overlord, a being of immense power that is virtually invincible and served by creatures who could themselves easily acquire kingdoms if they wanted to. Hell, Ganishka united the biggest empire on earth, and he was just an apostle. A powerful one, but still "merely" an apostle.

So while Griffith has only expressed interest in becoming king of Midland so far, it's only natural that the readers suspect him to have higher goals, goals of a grandeur equivalent to his own. As his intrinsic power and potential grew, people assume that his ambition must have grown accordingly.

I always interpretted his role in god hand as something similar to that of the role of the apostles : "do what you want". I see it as a mutual relationship between Idea and the godhand in which the godhand are left to pursue whatever goals they wish using the power given them, and as a result they indirectly facilitate idea's goals as well.

Well I think that's a correct way to look at it. However, like the apostles seem very pleased for the most part to be serving Griffith's purposes, we can speculate that each member of the God Hand has an interest in seeing the mysterious and hypothetical "master plan" happen, whatever it may be. And a member of the God Hand isn't an apostle, they have a far greater knowledge of things, so I doubt they ignore that they're working toward something bigger than their personal goals.

I was wondering about the translation I read here (which seems much more logical to me than the one I'm about to present) and the translated scantalions I've read today.

Our translations are correct, so well, if the others differ then they must be incorrect. The notion of "principles of the world" isn't a new one in Berserk either, it's been referred to at various point in the past, and it's a very important point. Like Ramen4ever told you, more information can be found in old threads by using the forum's search engine. In any case, I recommend you to stop reading scanlations. As you must know we discourage this practice on SK.net.

In fact, killing him might very well be a prerequisite to ushering in the Age of Darkness

Indeed.

Ganishka might have indeed fulfilled his wish of tapping into the power available only to the Godhand (or maybe not to them even!), but he is certainly not about to fool the Idea of Evil

Well, without going that far, even if he absorbed some of the same power that the members of the God Hand receive during their transformation, it's clear that he doesn't fully control it and that basically it hasn't been done correctly. Comparing them is like comparing the huge computer mainframes of the past and the current refined microprocessors, only in more subtle and extreme. One is huge but inefficient, and for all its size it still is not nearly as powerful as the other. By doing things forcefully as opposed to the very delicate and complex craftsmanship that we can imagine is the work of the Idea of Evil, Ganishka is only setting himself up for another failure.

the first serious contender to both the Apostles and the Godhand (at least if we don't take into the account that he might actually be helping them) is here - Guts won't bring him down, even in his Berserk form and even flying on top of Zodd

Well that's for sure, and it's interesting because it shows the huge gap that currently exists between Guts and Griffith. They're really not on the same level anymore, despite the fact they live in the same world again. To me Griffith isn't more attainable now than he was as Femto back in volume 3.

Was something like this in Griffith's plans? Did he expect something like this to occur?

A lot of elements points to yes. Personally, I think Griffith is still in control right now. However like Saiya said, it's possible that he didn't know the extent of what Ganishka was about to do. As always we can't really be sure.

Is something like this big enough to screw up Griffith's plan to take a kingdom? What I mean is that, with Ganeshka being such a immensely powerful force now, is it going to cause Griffith to act too quickly/unstabley, like what happened when Guts left the original Band of the Hawk?

I would say no. Griffith isn't human anymore. The only thing that can make him unstable as far as we know is what remains of the Demon Child inside him, and it's not likely to intervene here. The only damage I think Ganishka could do to Griffith's kingdom is physical... As in destroying his capital city.

Aaz, you almost answered everyone question in this entire episode, that was one hella good post...

Well thanks, and thanks to everyone else too, but you guys shouldn't disregard the posts that came before mine either. I'm thinking in particular about "Griffith No More!" and Walter's posts that nailed the whole business pretty well and did so right away.

So you are basically inferring that killing Ganishka is just an excuse to bring evil into this world right? Not just to show the world that he is the "saviour"?

Yeah, that's what I think it could be. That would be pretty clever, eh?

Ganishka isn't really comfortable with his power, size, everything! It's all new to him I guess, but Griffith was always confident both as Femto and as as the new incarnation of Griffith in the mortal realm - it never seemed as if he was in the least bit concerned - it was always natural for him to have his powers, like it was meant to be. That will probably be Ganishka's downfall among other things.

Yeah, it's like what I said earlier, Ganishka's crude methods have led to a crude result that is likely to quickly go awry.

What I'm wondering is this; if Ganishka has merged/infused such a being would it entail that it's conciseness was in there as well, and if so could it follow some sort of own agenda? I realise that it's difficult to speculate given that we don't know much about Idea's plan to begin with but could it be that there are other entities that could threaten or at least pose a bigger problem for Griffith and by extention for the Idea of Evil.

Ah, well I don't think he's absorbed such a being, that's not what I meant (I don't think he could have done that anyway, for many reasons). I was just comparing the power he's received with the description Flora made of giant entities, meaning that by trying to bring so much power into the world, Ganishka needed a giant corporeal body to go along with it. He couldn't contain that power within a normal-sized shell. That's why the members of the God Hand can't appear as they want in the world under normal circumstances, and that's why Griffith's incarnation was such a big deal and necessitated such imposing forces and means. Ganishka did things forcefully so the result is grotesque. It's possible that as a result he has a weakness that Griffith will be able to exploit to defeat him with ease.

Not really. There is nothing above the laws of causality themselves...

Well that's debatable, and in this case vlad was talking about spiritual creatures anyway, not human beings from the corporeal world. The astral world isn't subject to the same principles, so your argument doesn't apply. The creatures that populate it have already proven to be very powerful too, and we don't know what danger the four elemental kings could represent for the God Hand, for example.



Anyway, for the water analogy lovers, in this episode the words "abyss" (a repeat offender) and "overflowing" are clear references (in the original Japanese I mean).

And there's one thing that I'd like to come back on: Sonia's expression. Because you know, more than the apostles (some of whom have been surprised/staring before, like Irvine when Ganishka transformed in volume 27), her reaction seems to be the most revealing to me. She's dead serious and looks overwhelmed, and that's one of the strongest indications as far as I'm concerned that really big events are occurring/about to occur. I'd just like to see what she's seeing. =)

And on another note, I'm wondering if Ganishka's desires may not yet be granted, in a distorted way: to cover the world with his filth, to stain the world or leave his indelible mark upon it. It's just speculation, but if he is really to release evil on the world after his death, it could somehow bear his mark as he dies. And I think if it were the case, he could realize it at the last moment. He was aware of the transformation of the world that came to be with Griffith's incarnation, so I'm just thinking he may understand the role he'll have played at the very end, and maybe come to even be satisfied with it, at last.

 

[JetBlack]

Well well well
If the evil will spread with the end of Ganishka and if this will merge the planes of existance faster... Miura sure has many elements to draw. Now I can see more clearly how the Age of Darkness could be, a battle versus evil... More powers in conflict (maybe elves and Guts too?). I thought wrongly that after Ganishka there would be the kingdom, then the fall of Griff and the end of Berserk but this opens future possibilities.

PS: And save that poor Daiba

 

[Smith]

I thought wrongly that after Ganishka there would be the kingdom, then the fall of Griff and the end of Berserk but this opens future possibilities.

The kingdom might still be there after the death of Ganishka, but not for long...

The age of darkness can occur one day, one month or even years after Ganishka's death... there is no indication that it will be spontaneous right?

Although I would agree it will be way faster than had Ganishka not chosen to drop himself into the Daka-factory...

 

[dwarfkicker]

I wonder if we're in for another time skip. I mean it will take time for the kingdom to be rebuilt. I doubt Griffith's vision of his ideal kingdom is him ruling over a pile of rubble. Plus Guts' wounds will probably need some serious care for a good while

Then again Guts' wounds could be instantly healed and Griffith's Apostle army could be incredible craftsmen with a knack for building.

 

[Mage]

Damn. I did not expect Ganishka to become that massive.

Griffith did consider an old witch like Flora enough of a threat to send his army after...If Ganishka's demise does bring about the 'age of darkness,' maybe it was all in order to deal with Elfhelm since they're a much bigger threat? This sounds way too simple, though..

 

[Aazealh]

The kingdom might still be there after the death of Ganishka, but not for long...

Well, who knows? Regardless of what will happen, it seems evident that Griffith will still establish his kingdom and start reigning. Because Wyndham is being destroyed doesn't mean Midland is over. It's not like the city was in a good state anyway. You know, things could really go in many directions from now on. We're all excited about the Age of Darkness right now, but that doesn't mean the story is ending. The world won't be blown to smithereens. At worst, if nothing's left of Wyndham, Griffith will build Falconia in its place, the capital of the Hawk's own country (reminds me that maybe we should really, definitively stop using that word instead of "Falcon"). Remember that it's the title of the current chapter, logically it hints at its establishment.

Everything goes according to plan.

The age of darkness can occur one day, one month or even years after Ganishka's death... there is no indication that it will be spontaneous right?

You mean other than Sonia saying the principles of the world are about to end? And aren't you contradicting what you said just before and that I already replied to? Anyway, you have to consider the fact that the "Age of Darkness" is not a clearly defined notion. Slan's words could refer to a progressive change that started with Femto's birth (can't say that Midland went through good times since then, even though Griffith has been saving the day after his incarnation).

I wonder if we're in for another time skip. I mean it will take time for the kingdom to be rebuilt. I doubt Griffith's vision of his ideal kingdom is him ruling over a pile of rubble. Plus Guts' wounds will probably need some serious care for a good while

Could be. Could always be, anyway. It's not like we've had many of them outside of the Golden Age arc, which was just a big flashback itself in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if after this whole business is over, we didn't see Griffith for a while. Like, we see his victory (with maybe some cuts to Guts & friends in between), then the story focuses exclusively on Guts for a while. Then time skip and we see Guts et al. leaving Elfhelm to go back to the mainland, discovering the changes the world went through together with them. Nothing special, I just find it a cool idea. Personally I wouldn't mind either case, time skip or not.

Griffith did consider an old witch like Flora enough of a threat to send his army after...If Ganishka's demise does bring about the 'age of darkness,' maybe it was all in order to deal with Elfhelm since they're a much bigger threat? This sound way too simple, though..

Flora was geographically closer to him than Elfhelm though, and she apparently had a history of opposing the God Hand, since she was related to SK. Elfhelm is a remote shelter and its inhabitants don't seem to be willing to interfere with the rest of the world. It's hard to know how much of a danger it actually represents for Griffith, and how he perceives it himself. There's also the question of who the Age of Darkness will affect. Humans are a sure bet, but astral beings? I'm not so sure. Elfhelm is likely to be warded against evil like Flora's mansion was, so it might not affect it anyway.

On another note, I wonder if, despite the size, it was such a good deal for Ganishka to exchange his ability to transform into fog for this new fleshly body. After all, Griffith did tell him that he couldn't kill or capture him because of the fog. Now he can bleed.

 

[dimasok]

On another note, I wonder if, despite the size, it was such a good deal for Ganishka to exchange his ability to transform into fog for this new fleshly body. After all, Griffith did tell him that he couldn't kill or capture him because of the fog. Now he can bleed.

Good point. I wondered about that myself... Ganishka was saying that now he can finally rip and tear what he couldn't previously in his mist form, but I found that statement weird, because it is not entirely advantegous for him to not be able to transform into mist - that was quite a convenient ability.

 

[Aazealh]

Good point. I wondered about that myself... Ganishka was saying that now he can finally rip and tear what he couldn't previously in his mist form, but I found that statement weird, because it is not entirely advantegous for him to not be able to transform into mist - that was quite a convenient ability.

Well, to be honest though, and like I previously said in the thread, it seems unlikely that anything corporeal will defeat him... He's just way too big. Not to mention that we don't know the extent of what he can do yet. Hmm, I wonder what he's vulnerable to...

I guess Irvine could try to shoot him from afar just to see what it'd do. Man, it's going to be long until May 23.

 

[EndLeSS8]

Thanks for the answers and clarifications guys, much appreciated.



I wonder what the members of Godhand think about all of this.
They probably think it's an interesting turn.

 

[Smith]

On another note, I wonder if, despite the size, it was such a good deal for Ganishka to exchange his ability to transform into fog for this new fleshly body. After all, Griffith did tell him that he couldn't kill or capture him because of the fog. Now he can bleed.

I bet Miura will have an explanation how it will be more advantageous in current physical form than previous mist form.

Maybe you can think of it as a exchange for a massive increase in attack while sacrificing one's defense... (you know something like those skills in RPG? )

I guess Irvine could try to shoot him from afar just to see what it'd do. Man, it's going to be long until May 23.

It didn't work back in vol 27, I doubt he will be that stupid to try again.

How about firing multiple cannons? Most likely the targetted part will just grow back though....

 

[jackson_hurley]

Man, it's going to be long until May 23.

Yeah I get the feeling this is gonna need more than 2-3 episode to finish that MeGanishka. Hehe can't wait for it! It's gonna be awesome. I'm still trying to find a way how he could get hurt...

 

[brinco]

Thank you so much for the episode!!!! May 23 will not come fast enough.

 

[JetBlack]

I was wondering what are the members of the God Hand doing now. We know they are on their channels...
I don't think they will help Griffith in his battle, but maybe they want to be present to see it. And for sure they will be significant in the age of darkness.

 

[Walter]

I was wondering what are the members of the God Hand doing now. We know they are on their channels...
I don't think they will help Griffith in his battle, but maybe they want to be present to see it. And for sure they will be significant in the age of darkness.

The God Hand are not corporeal beings, and clearly they're keeping tabs on what goes on in the world, so why would they need to be there to witness the current events? Their domain is wherever evil exists, to paraphrase Skull Knight in Volume 18.

 

[lannie]

Wow, that's amazing. Ganishka is even stronger and huge and lots of faces. Very scary!

 

[Uriel]

And the view was incredible.

 

[Rhombaad]

Nice, Uriel. I hear it's a tougher climb than K2.

 

[Duststorm]

I think that Griffith will defeat Ganishka using his astral form, the same way how Zodd got defeated by Griffith.

 

[Kavaron]

Can Griffith use his Apostle form to deal with this or he has to remain human so that the real humans don't realize what he really is?

I also think that the Archer Apostle will participate in this battle. He could find a vulnerable spot in Ganishka and snipe him.

 

[Uriel]

You're assuming Griffith has an apostle form to begin with. We don't know for sure -- but I somehow doubt it.

As for Irvine... I'm not so sure how effective an arrow would be when dealing with hell personified. This isn't the same as the Daiba.. there probably isn't a snake lurking around there somewhere. Besides, I think this battle needs to be won without the apostles changing into their more monstrous attire.

 

[Rhombaad]

Can Griffith use his Apostle form to deal with this or he has to remain human so that the real humans don't realize what he really is?

He's a member of the God Hand, not an apostle, and we don't know for sure whether or not an incarnated God Had has an alternate form.  I'm kinda hoping he changes into something, though.

 

[egg of the king]

You're assuming Griffith has an apostle form to begin with. We don't know for sure -- but I somehow doubt it.

As for Irvine... I'm not so sure how effective an arrow would be when dealing with hell personified. This isn't the same as the Daiba.. there probably isn't a snake lurking around there somewhere. Besides, I think this battle needs to be won without the apostles changing into their more monstrous attire.

You know, I had been on this train of thought that the apostles would take their uberforms, but yeah, i'm not sure how much sense that would make given all of the normal humans around them believing them to be as normal--at least corporeally--as them. perhaps this is why sonia's eyes are the way they are, to foreshadow this battle might be a pyrrhic one. i might postulate griffith will really need to rely on strategy here, but that is what he does best, for sure.

 

[berserker88]

Nice episode and a interesting transformation for Ganishka. I hope he gives Griffith a run for his money none of that wind stuff anymore.