Episode 306
- Thread starter Aazealh
- Start date
Sure, there's no reason to explicitly exclude the possibility of him having some kind of sway over the astral creatures in the future. But since MaN is asking us right now "Are the new creatures going to be under the 'jurisdiction' of Griffith", my answer is that at this moment, I'd be hard pressed to present any evidence of what the means of Griffith's control over them would be.宮本 グリフィス said:
But I'm open to suggestions!
That being said, with the worlds merging to this extent, we're really in unprecedented territory here. Could the overwhelming aura of Griffith, as described by both Mule and Schierke, also be able to influence astral creatures? If so, to what extent?
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:Sure, there's no reason to explicitly exclude the possibility of him having some kind of sway over the astral creatures in the future. But since MaN is asking us right now "Are the new creatures going to be under the 'jurisdiction' of Griffith", my answer is that at this moment, I'd be hard pressed to present any evidence of what the means of Griffith's control over them would be.
But I'm open to suggestions!
I think it's more than a mere possibility, a likelihood even, and one could argue even more likely and conservative a guess than not. Technically speaking, Griffith could just be such a high level supernatural being that he dominates them on that alone, without any additional specific powers or special jurisdiction over them.
Walter said:
Exactly.
Technically speaking, Griffith is a member of the God Hand, which is in its own classification of high-level beings. One particularly associated with evil beings, and not with the average, run-of-the-mill creatures of the astral world.宮本 グリフィス said:
Anyway, regarding his aura of influence, I don't think it would work on a beast or an astral creature the same way it works on humans. His powers, afterall, are derived from sources with particularly human ties: the Idea of Evil, the Vortex of Souls.
When you cut down to basics though, there's just no precedent that Griffith himself has affected astral creatures. Puck, for example, felt nothing special about being near Griffith at the Hill of Swords.
Rhombaad
Video Game Time Traveler
What about when the Moonlight Boy caused the crocodile familiar to turn back and leave the cabin? This is of course assuming that Griffith and the Moonlight Boy are related and the child possesses the same divine powers as Griff. As for not having any influence over Puck, just because he didn't exert any influence on him doesn't mean he couldn't if he wanted to.
Well, those pishacha are a particular kind of creature -- manipulated through Ganishka's fog and by the Kushan. It may seem like I'm nitpicking, but consider that Griffith already has sway over apostles. So, it's not hard to believe he could affect things under control by apostles.Rhombaad said:
I don't think so. Besides, even if it were the case, it would be unprecedented at this point. Puck has been in the presence of all five God Hand, but nothing in that scene (or any other) implied they had power over him.
I think we've gotten a little lost about what we're arguing about. We're questioning whether Griffith's natural aura from being a God Hand member in the flesh, which draws apostles to him and causes humans to want to dedicate themselves to him, would have a similar effect on astral creatures. And since that effect is a result of his unique form of existence, I don't think it's a super power he can just turn on and off.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I think this is really just a simple matter of semantics where I could just say, "It's not that I think Griffith will have the same control over them as Apostles or humans, and especially not how a Kelpie can control weaker water elements, but that maybe he's just so powerful in general it doesn't matter" but I'm going the full nine yards because I think there's other interesting issues at hand here.
Technically speaking, the Qliphoth and the creatures living there, trolls for example, are run-of-the-mill things of the astral world, and Slan certainly didn't seem limited by that. If one thinks that's because that place and those creatures are evil, then it would still suggest that evil isn't something exclusive to God Hand and humanity, or something outside of the natural/elemental/astral world. Furthermore, the only thing different about the God Hand's "classification" as it were, according to Flora, is that much about them is a mystery, so that isn't really something to specifically classify as different. In volume 26 for example, Schierke identifies and refers to Slan as merely a high level spiritual being, one in which Guts was able to cut because of his sword's frequent interaction cutting beings of the astral world; not special God Hand classified beings, or even just evil beings, but just astral beings. In most instances, these things are referred to in general under the same astral umbrella; evil spirits and white unicorns are different things, but defined together on the same page in volume 24, on a some level, maybe they ultimately aren't much different. Or, whatever sub-varieties exist, or that we designate, perhaps arbitrarily, they could all very well bend to same greater rule, the God Hand included.
It doesn't have to work the same way, and as mentioned above, there aren't a lot of hard rules when it comes to the God Hand's place and influence in the astral world (though it may have just gotten a lot bigger =). In any case, my point is that it might not matter. A member of the God Hand's astral power in general, the overwhelming feeling any weaker astral being gets in its presence, might be so great that breaking it down by classification is no longer relevant. It's like, the Kundalini can't directly control a wind elemental because they're of different elements, but it's not like that means Puck can somehow sidestep it's power. Even that example isn't extreme enough to represent the difference in power between Griffith and these astral creatures.
One could argue he's affected them all now, actually. =)
I know, not in that way, but it brings up another point; this is a brave new world, the rules have changed, and in ways we cannot know. So, the bigger question here is how much of this new world order is Griffith's? I think that's what the question of Griffith's "authority" in this world means, not whether he can control these creatures, but if he'll even have to.
I'm glad you wrote that, because I want to make it clear I'm not just talking about that specifically. Griffith's sway over humans and, particularly, Apostles is certainly established, but that doesn't preclude the overall magnetism of his astral power in general, which might be relevant to anything and everything, particularly after the events of the last volume. In any case, just because these creatures don't flock to him doesn't mean they're outside his dominion/jurisdiction or however one wants to put it. Going back to the original question, I don't think there's a simple answer other than, "We don't know."
Anyway, I think it would be cool either way, Apostles having to fight off dragons or Griffith just staring them down.
Walter said:
Technically speaking, the Qliphoth and the creatures living there, trolls for example, are run-of-the-mill things of the astral world, and Slan certainly didn't seem limited by that. If one thinks that's because that place and those creatures are evil, then it would still suggest that evil isn't something exclusive to God Hand and humanity, or something outside of the natural/elemental/astral world. Furthermore, the only thing different about the God Hand's "classification" as it were, according to Flora, is that much about them is a mystery, so that isn't really something to specifically classify as different. In volume 26 for example, Schierke identifies and refers to Slan as merely a high level spiritual being, one in which Guts was able to cut because of his sword's frequent interaction cutting beings of the astral world; not special God Hand classified beings, or even just evil beings, but just astral beings. In most instances, these things are referred to in general under the same astral umbrella; evil spirits and white unicorns are different things, but defined together on the same page in volume 24, on a some level, maybe they ultimately aren't much different. Or, whatever sub-varieties exist, or that we designate, perhaps arbitrarily, they could all very well bend to same greater rule, the God Hand included.
Walter said:
It doesn't have to work the same way, and as mentioned above, there aren't a lot of hard rules when it comes to the God Hand's place and influence in the astral world (though it may have just gotten a lot bigger =). In any case, my point is that it might not matter. A member of the God Hand's astral power in general, the overwhelming feeling any weaker astral being gets in its presence, might be so great that breaking it down by classification is no longer relevant. It's like, the Kundalini can't directly control a wind elemental because they're of different elements, but it's not like that means Puck can somehow sidestep it's power. Even that example isn't extreme enough to represent the difference in power between Griffith and these astral creatures.
Walter said:
One could argue he's affected them all now, actually. =)
I know, not in that way, but it brings up another point; this is a brave new world, the rules have changed, and in ways we cannot know. So, the bigger question here is how much of this new world order is Griffith's? I think that's what the question of Griffith's "authority" in this world means, not whether he can control these creatures, but if he'll even have to.
Walter said:
I'm glad you wrote that, because I want to make it clear I'm not just talking about that specifically. Griffith's sway over humans and, particularly, Apostles is certainly established, but that doesn't preclude the overall magnetism of his astral power in general, which might be relevant to anything and everything, particularly after the events of the last volume. In any case, just because these creatures don't flock to him doesn't mean they're outside his dominion/jurisdiction or however one wants to put it. Going back to the original question, I don't think there's a simple answer other than, "We don't know."
Anyway, I think it would be cool either way, Apostles having to fight off dragons or Griffith just staring them down.
What, is the v35 preview page going to be in the back of v34?
Rhombaad
Video Game Time Traveler
Slan_wings said:
Since Vol. 34 has not been released yet, there's no way to know. We don't even know what the cover will be like, let alone the preview page in the back. Usually preview pages contain pics from the next episode or two, but no episodes from Vol. 35 have been released yet.
I had a line by line response for Griffith, but after talking with him, I don't think we're at polar opposite opinions here. So there's no reason to detail this crap incessantly. I'll instead employ a well-worn analogy to make my point.
I see the astral world as one big ocean. There are a wide variety of creatures swimming around in it, including everything from ghosts to Kelpie to God Hand. But though they swim in the same waters, there's a clear distinction in the level of power and influence between these creatures. I'd go so far as to say the deeper you go, the more of this you get. There are also some established discrepancies between the creatures. For instance, Schierke was able to form a pact with elemental entities and borrow some of their power. For others, a sacrifice can be thought of as a kind of pact for the transference of power. Clearly for some creatures, evil holds sway, and for others, elemental powers hold sway.
Despite all these creatures living in the same basic plane of existence, there's been no example of a unifying factor between all these disparate entities... YET.
But since the ocean of the astral world was just turned upside down and spilled over into the physical world, there could be a new hierarchy of power. So, it remains to be seen if that will establish the God Hand, or specifically Griffith, as having a dominant, universal power over others.
I see the astral world as one big ocean. There are a wide variety of creatures swimming around in it, including everything from ghosts to Kelpie to God Hand. But though they swim in the same waters, there's a clear distinction in the level of power and influence between these creatures. I'd go so far as to say the deeper you go, the more of this you get. There are also some established discrepancies between the creatures. For instance, Schierke was able to form a pact with elemental entities and borrow some of their power. For others, a sacrifice can be thought of as a kind of pact for the transference of power. Clearly for some creatures, evil holds sway, and for others, elemental powers hold sway.
Despite all these creatures living in the same basic plane of existence, there's been no example of a unifying factor between all these disparate entities... YET.
But since the ocean of the astral world was just turned upside down and spilled over into the physical world, there could be a new hierarchy of power. So, it remains to be seen if that will establish the God Hand, or specifically Griffith, as having a dominant, universal power over others.
I don't think this has been said yet, but take the trolls for example. Take the Qliphoth(spelling?) Slan seemed to have complete control over that place no? We don't see the trolls being created there, but they come from there, we do see the Ogres being created there. Slan seemed to at least have influence over the ogres if not total control. If all of these creatures in chapter 306 are no different then the trolls(they all existed in the astral world), and by extension the Ogres, or even the whole Qliphoth, I think we have seen some hint of past god hand behavior/abilities to control/influence at least some astral creatures.
Griff had already mentioned it:Jaze1618 said:
I've had a rebuttal for that issue prepared, but ... I was hoping we could avoid having to go into this much detail by instead giving an analogy of my thoughts, but oh well. If I have to explain my reasoning for every example, I'll do my best!宮本 グリフィス said:
The Qliphoth isn't just your average region of the astral world. It's where creatures with evil od gather. As we know from SK, the God Hand also exist in places where evil is (see vol 18). Slan compares the pool in that cave where she forms those ogres to her womb, and later calls it "the uterus of darkness," where endless monsters can be spawned. Sounds more like she's taking control of a pre-existing phenomena to me
And I wouldn't say she showed "total control" over the ogres. She was just able to form them, which she refers to as her children or "fetuses", from the walls of the cave. As she explained, because of her particular affinity with that environment, she had the power to do that.
Because that incident in vol 26 was a very specific scenario, it has limited application in what we're talking about here (Griffith exhibiting control over all the astral creatures). I certainly doubt it's possible that God Hand members can pull that maneuver just anywhere in the world.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
To show I haven't abandoned this discussion...
That she has some control over pre-existing natural phenomena is the point though. At the least, it shows some kind of relationship.
Again, my sticking point is that such an affinity can exist at all.
Yeah, it's at the same time vague and very complicated, which, as we discovered throughout the evening, makes it difficult to even discuss. I'm comfortable in saying that there's at least some precedent for God Hand influence over average astral creatures though (and as Aaz reminds me, even non-astral creatures in the case of Conrad and the rats in volume 17).
Unicorns beware!?
C'mon, don't back down so easily, you made a good point. =)
Allow me to also quote the next line as well, which was really the heart of what I'm currently getting at:Walter said:
宮本 グリフィス said:
Walter said:The Qliphoth isn't just your average region of the astral world. It's where creatures with evil od gather. As we know from SK, the God Hand also exist in places where evil is (see vol 18). Slan compares the pool in that cave where she forms those ogres to her womb, and later calls it "the uterus of darkness," where endless monsters can be spawned. Sounds more like she's taking control of a pre-existing phenomena to me
That she has some control over pre-existing natural phenomena is the point though. At the least, it shows some kind of relationship.
Walter said:
Again, my sticking point is that such an affinity can exist at all.
Walter said:
Yeah, it's at the same time vague and very complicated, which, as we discovered throughout the evening, makes it difficult to even discuss. I'm comfortable in saying that there's at least some precedent for God Hand influence over average astral creatures though (and as Aaz reminds me, even non-astral creatures in the case of Conrad and the rats in volume 17).
Unicorns beware!?
Jaze1618 said:
C'mon, don't back down so easily, you made a good point. =)
Can of worms indeed.... I think we would all benefit from a chart that shows the hierarchy levels of different plains of existence 
. What subsumes what and which characters are at which level etc? Hmm it would be a nice project.
Anyway I guess I keep going back to the fact that if Griffith does not exercise control over the astral beings then why merge the worlds together in the first place? It doesn't seem like the Qliphoth scenario as Walter mentioned because that was a specific incident.. a temporary window into the astral world that was just there. Now the gates have been opened and the two world have been forced to merge
And we are all talking about the Aura of Griffith.. but what does the aura entail? His complete being, his predetermined and accepted stature or his might/abilities and his allies (i.e. humans and apostles). The last of these could mean that the new creatures are beaten into subjugation. oooh and wouldn't that be nice
. What subsumes what and which characters are at which level etc? Hmm it would be a nice project.Anyway I guess I keep going back to the fact that if Griffith does not exercise control over the astral beings then why merge the worlds together in the first place? It doesn't seem like the Qliphoth scenario as Walter mentioned because that was a specific incident.. a temporary window into the astral world that was just there. Now the gates have been opened and the two world have been forced to merge
And we are all talking about the Aura of Griffith.. but what does the aura entail? His complete being, his predetermined and accepted stature or his might/abilities and his allies (i.e. humans and apostles). The last of these could mean that the new creatures are beaten into subjugation. oooh and wouldn't that be nice
Any project like that would have to make a worm-can full of assumptions. Most of those concepts aren't well-defined. Certainly not well enough for a chart. Our current Universe chart is very flawed at this point, and really should be removed or heavily revised.MaN said:Can of worms indeed.... I think we would all benefit from a chart that shows the hierarchy levels of different plains of existence
One of the first theories that was discussed here on SKnet was the possibility that this will place humans in even MORE a position of weakness. They'll be forced to rely on supernatural beings like the apostles to save and protect them.
But the full purpose is likely something more complex, and yet to be revealed.
Ha. I just came here to have the past 6 months worth of episodes explained to me. Thanks for being so thorough! And what do you know, my password still works...
That Hieronymus Bosch spread was great. Funny to see the weird and horrible presented in such different styles.
That Hieronymus Bosch spread was great. Funny to see the weird and horrible presented in such different styles.
Hey I was just curious, if this Episode Release Chart http://skullknight.net/images/eps.htm posted by Walter awhile back had been updated by anyone recently, or if there were any plans to? 
I found it very interesting, kind of gave you a way to estimate how long the next breaks would be.
I found it very interesting, kind of gave you a way to estimate how long the next breaks would be.
Skull Knight said:Hey I was just curious, if this Episode Release Chart http://skullknight.net/images/eps.htm posted by Walter awhile back had been updated by anyone recently, or if there were any plans to?
You should use this page, it's more recent: http://skullknight.net/images/eps.html
Hey thanks guys! Much appreciated! 
Just for information, YA #19 will be a Berserk special edition of some sort, with a Berserk cover and a bunch of other stuff (more pages and appendices) to celebrate the 20th anniversary. We'll get more details about it from YA's website on the 18th.
Can't wait to get my hands on it.
Can't wait to get my hands on it.
It's really cool to see that, I'll try to get my hands on it too. 