Episode 360

[Zephyr42]

I think that really puts both on different roles now, Berserk is becoming more like a RPG after all.

Like, I get the "RPG Party" analogy well enough, but something about it bugs me, and it's not just because I shudder at trying to "game-ify" stories, but also because of the real world historical evolution of RPGs (and, thus, the very ontology of RPGs). In terms of the raw, abstract gameplay mechanics, video game RPGs descend from table top RPGs, such as D&D, which in turn descend from Prussian war games, which in turn descend from Chess. Chess got its start in India, under the name "Chaturanga", or "Four Divisions". Apparently, the game was devised by a military commander, in order to show his king what had just happened to their army. Or something like that.

My point: the diversification of classes and roles in RPGs is simply an extension of the diversification of different Chess pieces, which are simply representations of different types of military units.

So, rather than "Berserk is becoming more like a RPG", it might make more sense to say "Guts is inadvertently forming his own diverse and specialized military force". Which, when put like that, almost seems like a "rival" successor to the Band of the Falcon to whatever bastardization Femto's running around with.

If I remember correctly, didn't Guts mention just after the Eclipse that with Casca alive, the Band still lives on? Or have I smoked entirely too much reefer during the quarantine?

 

[NBK]

What leads you connect the dots between daimons, as described by Ged, and the Beast of Darkness?

It seems that Daimons are a different strata of astral creatures, not unlike the spirits we've encountered in the past, but crucially -- instead of a purely elemental being, these were once human and transcended into guiding, supernatural entities. I think lumping the Beast, which is a personification of Guts' trauma, with daimons might be putting it into the wrong bucket.

You said it, once human and trascended into supernatural entities, if SK indeed counts as one, he checks all boxes: he was once a human that got elevated through a thousand years of using the Berserk armor, he has supernatural strength and speed, he is immortal, he can swallow and mold the behelits to his will, enough to cut through space and time and he appears to guide Guts around every once in a while.
I'm not saying that that shade of Guts' personality by itself is the daemon but, since the parallels with SK were always there, if it completely takes over if SK is a daemon then the Beast/Berserk Guts, with the right amount of abuse, will be one by reflex.

tl;dr the armor can make you a daemon if you stay in it long enough

 

[Beelzebud]

Did you know that magic has been a component of Berserk since 2002?

Yeah, i know.

I was just quoting this because of the currently 'discussion' about the roles on the group, and now they are about to have a summoner mage, and a support one. Personally, i like that.

 

[Aazealh]

is Daemon meant to be dämon?

It's Daimon. Like the Greek word. Not Daemon, not dämon, not demon, not anything else. There already seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic...

tl;dr the armor can make you a daemon if you stay in it long enough

I can guarantee you this is not true. It's not how it works at all.

 

[Oburi]

The RPG thing is bullshit. People talk about the Golden Age episodes with such reverence and yet they forget that the group of Falcons that were friends with Guts were basically the same way. Pippen, Rickert, Carcus, Judo. They each had their own thing and brought their unique personality and skills to the table. They just didn't have magical abilities. Berserk has a lot varied characters that orbit Guts and Griffith and the longer they stick around, the more they develop. Kind of like real life you know.

People are just so eager to complain, especially if every new episode isn't the most epic world ending thing they've ever seen.

 

[Beelzebud]

Like, I get the "RPG Party" analogy well enough, but something about it bugs me, and it's not just because I shudder at trying to "game-ify" stories, but also because of the real world historical evolution of RPGs (and, thus, the very ontology of RPGs). In terms of the raw, abstract gameplay mechanics, video game RPGs descend from table top RPGs, such as D&D, which in turn descend from Prussian war games, which in turn descend from Chess. Chess got its start in India, under the name "Chaturanga", or "Four Divisions". Apparently, the game was devised by a military commander, in order to show his king what had just happened to their army. Or something like that.

My point: the diversification of classes and roles in RPGs is simply an extension of the diversification of different Chess pieces, which are simply representations of different types of military units.

So, rather than "Berserk is becoming more like a RPG", it might make more sense to say "Guts is inadvertently forming his own diverse and specialized military force". Which, when put like that, almost seems like a "rival" successor to the Band of the Falcon to whatever bastardization Femto's running around with.

If I remember correctly, didn't Guts mention just after the Eclipse that with Casca alive, the Band still lives on? Or have I smoked entirely too much reefer during the quarantine?

Wow, you went deep on that.

The RPG thing is bullshit. People talk about the Golden Age episodes with such reverence and yet they forget that the group of Falcons that were friends with Guts were basically the same way. Pippen, Rickert, Carcus, Judo. They each had their own thing and brought their unique personality and skills to the table. They just didn't have magical abilities. Berserk has a lot varied characters that orbit Guts and Griffith and the longer they stick around, the more they develop. Kind of like real life you know.

People are just so eager to complain, especially if every new episode isn't the most epic world ending thing they've ever seen.

I think that this is being taken very seriously, but it's just a comparison. Berserk is a Fantasy story, with a lot of war, it's obviously that these things of 'roles' exists on many groups.


Well, I think enough of that comparison. I have just one more thing to say:

I'm loving how each character are developing your own responsibilities and skill on the group, and i'm preparing myself to a tragic end

 

[Aazealh]

There's no need to overthink this whole thing. Like Walter said, Schierke has been summoning spirits since volume 24, so it's nothing new. She's also been doing a lot of other stuff, and will continue do to so. As for Farnese, she expressed the desire to use her talents to help heal Casca, which is only logical given the situation. That doesn't mean it's all she'll ever do. You guys should hold your horses a little bit.

 

[Theozilla]

It's interesting to get confirmation in this Episode that it has only been about three months (relative to Guts party at least, in case time is already passing faster in the outside world than it is for them on Skellig) since Farnese started her witch-craft training (episode 236 IIRC), and thus only about 4 months since Guts donned the Berserker Armor. Also it implies there was at least one full-moon date the Moonlight Boy didn't visit Casca and Guts and co.

 

[KikiPT]

Latest chapter gave me some strong LOTR vibes and I cant quite specifically point out what it was..

 

[Walter]

Latest chapter gave me some strong LOTR vibes and I cant quite specifically point out what it was..

Maybe your experience with the fantasy genre is lacking?

 

[KikiPT]

Maybe your experience with the fantasy genre is lacking?

Wouldn't say.
Any particular reason the mods are extra agressive today?

 

[DirtiestM]

The only LOTR vibe I have is that there is a possibility that we have a Fellowship of the Ring type meeting in the near future with Skull Knight, Danan, the elder magic users and Guts and company about what to do about Griffith. Besides that I don't see any connection.

 

[Walter]

Wouldn't say.
Any particular reason the mods are extra agressive today?

I don't feel particularly aggressive. For the purposes of discussion, it might help if you provided some reasons, because as it is, I'm just not seeing any relation to LotR other than staves and hats. And well, there are QUITE a lot of those in the fantasy genre, so my genuine conclusion is that you must not have read a lot of fantasy if that's your go-to example.

 

[KikiPT]

I don't feel particularly aggressive. For the purposes of discussion, it might help if you provided some reasons, because as it is, I'm just not seeing any relation to LotR other than staves and hats. And well, there are QUITE a lot of those in the fantasy genre, so my genuine conclusion is that you must not have read a lot of fantasy if that's your go-to example.

idk maybe its the fact that they're gathered in a elvish safeheaven seeking aid and recieving important council but who knows. Wasn't really looking for or claiming there to be any plot parallels or influence taken as I was merely feeling the similar atmospheres. Next time I'll be sure to have written at least 16 pages of in-depth analytical research before posting anything sir.

 

[Walter]

idk maybe its the fact that they're gathered in a elvish safeheaven seeking aid and recieving important council but who knows. Wasn't really looking for or claiming there to be any plot parallels or influence taken as I was merely feeling the similar atmospheres. Next time I'll be sure to have written at least 16 pages of in-depth analytical research before posting anything sir.

Well, you probably would have been better off explaining your feeling then, because your initial post came across as: Magic Stuff = LotR, an argument we've seen around here for close to 2 decades. And naturally... that's pretty hollow, so that's why I sought some clarity.

But since you bring it up, I don't detect any similar atmospheres at all. LotR is so stuffy it can't even get its pants on. Whereas there's light, breezy humor on nearly every page in this episode. I'll grant you the group is in a magical haven from which you could draw superficial parallels to like, Rivendell I guess? But atmosphere wise, I simply don't see anything like it. Berserk's Elfhelm is a wholly different beast.

 

[KikiPT]

Well, you probably would have been better off explaining your feeling then, because your initial post came across as: Magic Stuff = LotR, an argument we've seen around here for close to 2 decades. And well... that's pretty hollow, so that's why I asked for clarity.

I can understand how certain comparisons may get old and sound shallow after that long but I can assure you that I'm not the type to make such a shallow comparison nor did I ever see any LotR artistic, much less narrative influence in Berserk lmao. It was my bad for treating the thread as a chat window and not expanding on my thoughts at least a bit.

 

[Walter]

One thing I found funny about this episode is the shadow/darkness spirit that Schierke discovers in the tree. It looks foreboding, but in the end, it just eats the fat kid's apple.

It's a good reminder of the nature of Elfhelm, and how unlike it is compared to life on the continent. Here humans live among these crazy entities who playfully disrupt their normal lives. Certainly the best example of that was about 15 eps ago (wow!) when we first saw all the creatures come out at once. But I hadn't really thought about the everyday interaction of those entities and the human inhabitants until this ep.

 

[Cavalier]

I found this episode to be pretty emotional. When Casca grabbed Farnese cloak it hit me pretty hard. I'm re-reading the series right now and man has Casca been through a lot. I'm just so impressed how Miura is handling her return. Likewise Guts' reaction really hit the mark for me as well. Its been said many times, but its incredible how satisfying these episodes are after such a long wait. I'm new to the world of hiatus hell, but the sustained emotional impact of everything thats happened just continues to resonate in the story and with me.

 

[judeaunt say]

It's Daimon. Like the Greek word. Not Daemon, not dämon, not demon, not anything else. There already seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic...

Curious about this since the english translation we got was daemon which is the latin version of the ancient greek daimon. Is the distinction based on the japanese spelling?

 

[Aazealh]

Is the distinction based on the japanese spelling?

Yes. It's spelled "ダイモン", literally DA-I-MO-N. Sounds like "die-mon" in English if that helps you. "Dæmon" however is pronounced like "demon", and would be "デーモン". It also really fits the original Greek concept, as opposed to what derivatives of the word eventually came to mean.

 

[judeaunt say]

It also really fits the original Greek concept, as opposed to what derivatives of the word eventually came to mean.

Yea seems like it was deliberately chosen to avoid the modern meaning. Thanks for the explanation!

As for the episode, it was great to see Farnese getting some well deserved credit. I think a part of her worried she would no longer be needed after rehabilitating Casca. The past few episodes have helped her understand that Casca still needs help, and the very touching moment where a sleeping Casca grabs her garb as she is leaving surely reminded her of her personal responsibility towards Casca's continued recovery.

That, combined with the external validation given by the witches and mages on her magic skills, probably gave her a lot of courage towards speaking up and requesting more knowledge on the healing arts. As someone who dealt with low self esteem it is great to see how masterfully Miura is developing this character, never by leaps and bounds but slowly and surely over time.

Also great to see Guts swinging the sword again to vent because of Casca. Was a nice callback to a time when Guts was feeling very lost and sort of alone, just as he is now with his journey complete but not in the way he had hoped.

 

[Theozilla]

Yes. It's spelled "ダイモン", literally DA-I-MO-N. Sounds like "die-mon" in English if that helps you. "Dæmon" however is pronounced like "demon", and would be "デーモン". It also really fits the original Greek concept, as opposed to what derivatives of the word eventually came to mean.

Though the spelling of dæmon/daemon is technically the just the Latin spelling of the daimon Greek term. So even if the pronunciation is different the words dæmon/daemon are used relatively frequently in English when referring to the Greek concept.
The popular His Dark Materials series by Philip Pullman uses the dæmon spelling in English, and Pullman himself has referenced the Greek daimon origins as the major source for the concept in his series. And the Norwegian, Danish, Serbian, Italian, Swedish and Finnish editions of His Dark Materials even use the daimon spelling. So I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Horse ends up using the dæmon spelling of the word.

 

[Aazealh]

Though the spelling of dæmon/daemon is technically the just the Latin spelling of the daimon Greek term. So even if the pronunciation is different the words dæmon/daemon are used relatively frequently in English when referring to the Greek concept.

It's not "just technically the Latin spelling of the word". It's a variant of that word in another language that happens to be pronounced differently. Miura is specifically using the Greek word here, so we should too. If your argument is that "Daimon" isn't a frequently used English word, you're missing the point. Miura isn't using an English word. He's using a Greek word. Words like "Od", "Piskie", or "Pishacha" are also not frequently used in English, but they're the words used in Berserk. It's down to the author's choice.

This kind of discussion usually comes up for character names. Some people used to think "Guts" sounded dumb in English, and that it should be changed. But it's the author's choice. Other people used to think "Griffith" should be spelled "Griffin", like the legendary creature. Or "Wyald" should be "Wild" because he's just so wild. The list goes on and on. It can be difficult to ascertain how a name in Katakana should be transcribed into the Latin alphabet, but when we do know there's no reason not to respect it.

The popular His Dark Materials series by Philip Pullman uses the dæmon spelling in English

That's Philip Pullman's choice and good for him I guess? But Miura uses the word "Daimon".

I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Horse ends up using the dæmon spelling of the word.

Dark Horse has been mistranslating things in Berserk since volume one, so it really doesn't matter what they choose to use. As a reminder, their translation for "Sovereign of the Flower Storm" was "Hanafubuku King".

 

[Theozilla]

It's not "just technically the Latin spelling of the word". It's a variant of that word in another language that happens to be pronounced differently. Miura is specifically using the Greek word here, so we should too. If your argument is that "Daimon" isn't a frequently used English word, you're missing the point. Miura isn't using an English word. He's using a Greek word. Words like "Od", "Piskie", or "Pishacha" are also not frequently used in English, but they're the words used in Berserk. It's down to the author's choice.

This kind of discussion usually comes up for character names. Some people used to think "Guts" sounded dumb in English, and that it should be changed. But it's the author's choice. Other people used to think "Griffith" should be spelled "Griffin", like the legendary creature. Or "Wyald" should be "Wild" because he's just so wild. The list goes on and on.

I wasn't really trying to make an argument about anything (other than specifying the term dæmon isn't a mistranslation of daimon in the same manner that behelit, which has no pre-existing etymological usage, is to beherit), I just thought it was some neat trivia to bring up.

 

[Aazealh]

I wasn't really trying to make an argument about anything (other than specifying the term dæmon isn't a mistranslation of daimon in the same manner that behelit, which has no pre-existing etymological usage, is to beherit), I just thought it was some neat trivia to bring up.

Alright, well then now you know how strongly I feel about it.

But note that it would still be a mistranslation in this case because Miura chose to use the Greek word. Much like it would be a mistranslation to rename "Falconia" into "Fauconia" in the French edition of Berserk. Someone could say that "Falcon" in French is spelled "Faucon" and therefore it makes sense. However Miura chose the English word "Falcon" as the base for the name, and that's that.