Episode 360

[Archer1215]

Wait, so beheading a witch and burning down her tree fort was cool before, but now it's arbitrarily going to be uncool? Griffith is tilting the wheel towards racial extermination. I'm not sure how you can't see that at this point, particularly with his grand plan to steamroll the outlying areas, but maybe we could talk again in a few years and see where the chips fall then?

And who was there to kill said witch and burn down said tree fort? Because I don't remember that being something anyone was aware of but Griffith and the War Demons. That was something that was done under the table without the knowledge of the humans under Griffith, so it doesn't really have any relevance to this topic.

I also didn't say anything about it not being the case, if you'll look again. Just that, as things are now, the citizens of Falconia and the humans under Griffith's command aren't likely to view benign creatures in the same light as ones that are harmful to their quality of life. Regardless of Griffith's intentions in the grand scheme of things may be, the primary purpose of these campaigns is to reclaim territory and eliminate threats to humans. Not to exterminate everything that isn't human for the sake of it.

 

[Aazealh]

Reason being that these hostile astral creatures just can't coexist with humans. Which is also the reason Griffith and the Band of the Falcon are exterminating them. Because practically they can't reclaim territory for humans to live in safely with monsters still running around.

As ever, the least knowledgeable and least imaginative people are always so sure of what's going to happen. Surely the only reason Griffith and his monsters are exterminating these astral creatures is because they pose a danger to humanity! Man, if only they hadn't been brought into the world, things would be so much simpler for Griffith! Who brought these things into the world anyway? Oh wait, Griffith did? Co-could it mean... There's more to Griffith's plan than what he's told Foss and the other losers?! Inconceivable!

for the God Hand who rely on using fear of the unknown to herd people like sheep

The God Hand's power over mankind doesn't stem from "fear of the unknown".

 

[Archer1215]

As always, the least knowledgeable and least imaginative people are always so sure of what's going to happen. Surely the only reason Griffith and his monsters are exterminating these astral creatures is because they pose a danger to humanity! Man, if only they hadn't been brought into the world, things would be so much simpler for Griffith! Who brought these things into the world anyway? Oh wait, Griffith did? Co-could it mean... There's more to Griffith's plan than what he's told Foss and the other losers?! Inconceivable!

As always, you show yourself in foul character at the slightest hint of disagreement. I think you should read what I said again. Either you came into this with the intention of insulting me and arguing in bad faith or you intentionally missed the point of what I was saying. Either way it seems a bit unnecessary for you to resort to such things.

As said, it's not about Griffith's intentions in the grand scheme of things. It's how the humans under him view astral creatures. This isn't a nation-wide manhunt against everything that isn't human. That is not the purpose of these campaigns. The purpose is to expand territory and exterminate threats, as I've said time and again. That is undeniable. Obviously there is more to Griffith's plans than that, as was the case with the war against the Kushan.

And unless you've forgotten (perish the thought...), the Band of the Falcon is more than just the War Demons that are aware of Griffith's true nature and would not balk at his more duplicitous commands, the ones who were behind the torching of the Forest of the Spirit Tree, behind the backs of everyone else. The bulk of Griffith's forces are ordinary humans fighting for human expansion and the extermination of hostile creatures. If you think Sonia or Mule or the ordinary Joe Schmoes would paint benevolent creatures with the same brush as the ones that are killing and eating people... I don't know what to tell you man.

The God Hand's power over mankind doesn't stem from "fear of the unknown".

I will not comment on that.

 

[Aazealh]

As always, you show yourself in foul character at the slightest hint of disagreement. I think you should read what I said again. Either you came into this with the intention of insulting me and arguing in bad faith or you intentionally missed the point of what I was saying. Either way it seems a bit unnecessary for you to resort to such things.

Spare me the whiny routine.

As said, it's not about Griffith's intentions in the grand scheme of things. It's how the humans under him view astral creatures.

That's not what Walter was talking about originally, nor what you said when you first replied to him. You just pulled that caveat out of nowhere once it was clear you had no ground to stand on. The conversation was about why Griffith sent his goons after Flora, and it stemmed from Griffith97's speculation that he might send them to attack Elfhelm. Now you're trying to make it about the perception of the people living in Falconia. "Griffith won't do it because his human soldiers would disapprove." Like, really? Here's the thing: their perception is colored by what they know and experience, and that's directly under Griffith's control. The perception of free humans having knowledge of the world might be very different. For one thing they would know Griffith was the one who provoked this situation.

You talked earlier about magic users being dangerous to Griffith because of their knowledge. Duh. That's the point. But have you not stopped to think about what that knowledge entails exactly? For example, you presume a lot of things about the beings Griffith and his army have been wiping out. "They could never coexist with humans, the only way to deal with them is extermination." Do you actually know that for sure? They are dangerous, certainly. But so are wolves or bears or mountain lions. When the group first encountered trolls, Schierke just sent them packing with a defensive spell. On the solitary island, Isma was protected from the Sea God because her mother had placed wards on their house long before. This is where a witch's knowledge has value for the common folk. Not in telling them about Void.

And it goes farther than that. Were all those creatures always so violent and aggressive? Or is there also more than meets the eye here? For example what if, when the God Hand were brought into the world alongside all those fantastical creature, they somehow had a corrupting effect on them? And are we sure that exterminating them completely has no side effects at all? These are speculative questions, but I find it surprising that you are not considering them at all.

This isn't a nation-wide manhunt against everything that isn't human. That is not the purpose of these campaigns. The purpose is to expand territory and exterminate threats, as I've said time and again. That is undeniable. Obviously there is more to Griffith's plans than that, as was the case with the war against the Kushan.

Look, this is embarrassing. You're pretending to know what Griffith's motives are by saying "these campaigns are about this and this only!" while also admitting that actually, Griffith "obviously" has ulterior motives and you don't know what they are. You can't have it both ways. Please do us a favor and stop posturing as if you knew things you clearly don't.

I will not comment on that.

Haha, whether you do or not won't change the facts.

 

[Archer1215]

That's not what Walter was talking about originally, nor what you said when you first replied to him. You just pulled that caveat out of nowhere once it was clear you had no ground to stand on. The conversation was about why Griffith sent his goons after Flora, and it stemmed from Griffith97's speculation that he might send them to attack Elfhelm. Now you're trying to make it about the perception of the people living in Falconia. "Griffith won't do it because his human soldiers would disapprove." Like, really? Here's the thing: their perception is colored by what they know and experience, and that's directly under Griffith's control. The perception of free humans having knowledge of the world might be very different. For one thing they would know Griffith was the one who provoked this situation.

You should really take your time when reading discussions. My initial response was never about why Griffith sent his Apostles after Flora. It was to disagree with the idea that Flora would teach humans how to cope with the threat of astral creatures as a contrast to the way Falconia is dealing with them now. That being the threat of hostile astral creatures, which are the only things the Band of the Falcon are dealing with at the moment, and for very practical reasons, not because of any sort of anti-"everything-that-isn't-human" dogma.

After that the conversation veered into talking about how Falconia would paint ALL astral creatures with the same brush, from brownies to trolls, which I obviously disagree with and you should too if you've actually been reading this story.

You talked earlier about magic users being dangerous to Griffith because of their knowledge. Duh. That's the point. But have you not stopped to think about what that knowledge entails exactly? For example, you presume a lot of things about the beings Griffith and his army have been wiping out. "They could never coexist with humans, the only way to deal with them is extermination." Do you actually know that for sure? They are dangerous, certainly. But so are wolves or bears or mountain lions. When the group first encountered trolls, Schierke just sent them packing with a defensive spell. On the solitary island, Isma was protected from the Sea God because her mother had placed wards on their house long before. This is where a witch's knowledge has value for the common folk. Not in telling them about Void.

No, it isn't the "only" way. You can also separate the worlds with the Spirit Trees so people don't have to live in a world where everything is trying to kill them. Because that's how the magi dealt with the situation in the past, if you'll remember. Bears and wolves don't reproduce by kidnapping and raping women before their stomachs burst open with little baby cubs and pups. They also don't make flags from flayed human skins or form armies to wreck human civilizations. How many times do you see bears behaving like the Jotunn, or an army of wolves invading villages en masse like the trolls in Enoch? How many mountain lions sink ships, assimilate entire islands, or ruin entire ecosystems like the Sea God?

If you're trying to say that if Flora were still around she would just make a happy little circle and everyone would live in safety, then sorry you're wrong. Even in the case of the trolls, the solution was to exterminate them. Defend the village then follow them back to their cave so they can't raid villages or hurt people ever again. Because that's the nature of these things. They kill,. eat, and rape humans.

And the Sea God, who was only sealed away because the merrows likely had no other way of dealing with it, and thanked Guts and his party for eliminating it. Do you think there is any scenario where people would believe it's better to keep such a thing around to possibly break free in the future like it did recently should things go astray?

It's almost like the current state of the world is the reason the Forest of the Spirit Tree was created in the first place. Because it was chaos. Humans can't coexist and prosper as long as these monsters are out walking around. That's also the very situation Griffith is taking advantage of.

And it goes farther than that. Were all those creatures always so violent and aggressive? Or is there also more than meets the eye here? For example what if, when the God Hand were brought into the world alongside all those fantastical creature, they somehow had a corrupting effect on them? And are we sure that exterminating them completely has no side effects at all? These are speculative questions, but I find it surprising that you are not considering them at all.

The trolls, ogre, and kelpie in Enoch say hello to your idea. Could there be a side effect? Possibly, but that's besides the point of what I've been saying.

Look, this is embarrassing. You're pretending to know what Griffith's motives are by saying "these campaigns are about this and this only!" while also admitting that actually, Griffith "obviously" has ulterior motives and you don't know what they are. You can't have it both ways. Please do us a favor and stop posturing as if you knew things you clearly don't.

I have done no such thing as pretending to know Griffith's motives. In fact, it has been the opposite if anything. I have intentionally things pretty open-ended, and didn't even disagree to begin with that benign creatures could eventually be caught in their crosshairs. Actually, you're the one I always see "posturing" as though you know the future of the story, so spare me the hypocrisy. I have only ever talked about the purpose of the campaigns and the views regarding astral creatures shared by the citizens of Falconia, that being to reclaim lost territory from hostile creatures and that danger to humans = understandably bad. Obviously there is more to Griffith's goals than just doing good by humans. It goes without saying so I have no idea why you feel the need to stress it.

Spare me the whiny routine.

If you insist, and maybe you can spare me the high horse routine.

 

[Aazealh]

It was to disagree with the idea that Flora would teach humans how to cope with the threat of astral creatures as a contrast to the way Falconia is dealing with them now. That being the threat of hostile astral creatures, which are the only things the Band of the Falcon are dealing with at the moment, and for very practical reasons, not because of any sort of anti-"everything-that-isn't-human" dogma.

You talk about reading discussions but you don't seem to be learning from your exchanges with other people. For instance, as Walter pointed out to you, Schierke taught the residents of Enoch about the spirit that dwelled on their land unbeknownst to them. The idea being that worshipping that spirit would help them deal with supernatural threats in the future. Then I gave you examples in just the post above of how a witch's knowledge can help cope with astral creatures. I can add another one: certain berries act as a repulsive on trolls, as Schierke demonstrated. Isidro made good use of them in the series.

Furthermore, you speak of practical reasons for dealing with astral creatures, and that takes us back to my above post. You do not actually know Griffith's motives. During the Millennium Falcon arc, people like you were arguing that Griffith didn't need an army and should just crown himself king using his supernatural powers. They were missing the point. His objective was to produce the Blast of the Astral World and the return of Fantasia. The same thing is happening here. But you're not seeing it, and instead are literally just spouting Falconia propaganda. "We're doing this for the good of mankind!"

After that the conversation veered into talking about how Falconia would paint ALL astral creatures with the same brush, from brownies to trolls, which I obviously disagree with and you should too if you've actually been reading this story.

You're cute. It's just like I said above, the Dunning–Kruger effect in its full glory.

No, it isn't the "only" way. You can also separate the worlds with the Spirit Trees so people don't have to live in a world where everything is trying to kill them. Because that's how the magi dealt with the situation in the past, if you'll remember.

Oh, I had forgotten! Thank you for reminding me (we're missing a clown emoticon). So let's say there is no other way for things to go except extermination and splitting the worlds. Would they do it immediately? No transition period? The trees would just grow and bam, the two worlds are split? And if not, how do they cope in the meantime? This "all or nothing" attitude is your main problem. You think you've got all the answers while the manga makes it clear we're missing pieces.

If you're trying to say that if Flora were still around she would just make a happy little circle and everyone would live in safety, then sorry you're wrong. Even in the case of the trolls, the solution was to exterminate them. Defend the village then follow them back to their cave so they can't raid villages or hurt people ever again.

They followed the trolls because Casca and Farnese had been captured. It was a rescue mission.

And the Sea God, who was only sealed away because the merrows likely had no other way of dealing with it, and thanked Guts and his party for eliminating it. Do you think there is any scenario where people would believe it's better to keep such a thing around to possibly break free in the future like it did recently should things go astray?

You're missing the point, and on purpose it seems. Clearly, not all astral beings are nice. You need to go no further than incubi for that. But you're attempting to draw a clear line that Griffith is supposedly adhering to without actually having any knowledge on the matter.

The trolls, ogre, and kelpie in Enoch say hello to your idea. Could there be a side effect? Possibly, but that's besides the point of what I've been saying.

You mean the trolls from the Qliphoth? That Slan called her womb? And no, no it's not besides the point. The point was always magic users versus Falconia. And magic users did not exterminate astral beings before, during or after the worlds were split. Maybe you should wonder why.

I have done no such thing as pretending to know Griffith's motives. In fact, it has been the opposite if anything. I have intentionally things pretty open-ended, and didn't even disagree to begin with that benign creatures could eventually be caught in their crosshairs. Actually, you're the one I always see "posturing" as though you know the future of the story, so spare me the hypocrisy. I have only ever talked about the purpose of the campaigns and the views regarding astral creatures shared by the citizens of Falconia, that being to reclaim lost territory from hostile creatures and that danger to humans = understandably bad. Obviously there is more to Griffith's goals than just doing good by humans. It goes without saying so I have no idea why you feel the need to stress it.

The beauty of discussion forums is that any person reading this thread can decide for themselves who has been open-minded and who has not. Who is posturing and who has legitimacy.

 

[Walter]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear earlier, but I never meant to distinguish between humans and apostles under Griffith's control as separate Falconian forces. They are a singular force at this point, and they are the tip of the spear for Griffith's reach.

When I brought up Griffith's assault of Flora's manor, it was to show the intent of that force, or how it could be used in the future. Because nothing has changed since that day, in terms of who is giving the orders. They aren't going to suddenly start playing nice when it comes to something that's deemed a threat to their existence just because they've folded humans into the mix. That is a delusion. And whether it's an apostle ax or a human ax that ends up decapitating the brownie nest that's located in clear violation of the Falconian Highway Act is utterly insignificant, and certainly wasn't my point (which was that the work would be done anyway).

Because at the end of the day, what's going to happen is this:

Griffith: Then let us build it
Griffith: A territory for humans
Griffith: The second empire.

Not this:

Griffith: Then let us build it
Griffith: A territory for humans [and brownies, and elves, or anything else that might be too icky to eradicate]
Griffith: The second empire.

After that the conversation veered into talking about how Falconia would paint ALL astral creatures with the same brush, from brownies to trolls, which I obviously disagree with and you should too if you've actually been reading this story.

The story I've been reading doesn't pull any punches when it comes to humans being capable of undertaking atrocities. Falconians probably wouldn't even recognize, or care, about distinguishing them (they all look the same to me: not human), we just haven't been introduced to that facet of life on the frontier yet. What I see is a human force with detailed plans to pave over the world and make a land prosperous for humans. If you think that's going to be achieved just by eradicating the mean creatures, or if you think humans have any leverage (or motivation) to say "nah" to Griffith's command in establishing that new way of life, I think you're in for a surprise. They'll do it, and they'll be proud they did it, because they're building a home that's safe for humans.

You can also separate the worlds with the Spirit Trees so people don't have to live in a world where everything is trying to kill them. Because that's how the magi dealt with the situation in the past, if you'll remember.

Right. We had that world, and now we don't. So that's not really much of a solution anymore. Long term? Maybe, but it's not really relevant as things are, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

If you're trying to say that if Flora were still around she would just make a happy little circle and everyone would live in safety, then sorry you're wrong. Even in the case of the trolls, the solution was to exterminate them. Defend the village then follow them back to their cave so they can't raid villages or hurt people ever again. Because that's the nature of these things. They kill,. eat, and rape humans.

I thought what I was saying was pretty obvious. You said it yourself: Witches have knowledge of the astral world and its inhabitants. They could have used that knowledge to help humans survive in this wild new world. Period. It's not an ultimate solution to the problem humans are in, but it's something that humans could create a bulwark around. That's a threat to the existence of Falconia, because it would have been an alternative to their centralized way of life.

I have only ever talked about the purpose of the campaigns and the views regarding astral creatures shared by the citizens of Falconia, that being to reclaim lost territory from hostile creatures and that danger to humans = understandably bad. Obviously there is more to Griffith's goals than just doing good by humans. It goes without saying so I have no idea why you feel the need to stress it.

You say you're open to ideas, and you acknowledge there's probably more to Griffith's goals than meets the eyes. But Aaz and I have laid out a notion for what that ulterior motive could very well be [exterminating astral creatures], and your objection is that it hasn't been explicitly laid out in Falconian policy yet. It really does seem to me that you aren't seeing the"nice guy" facade for what it is. The Falconians aren't "blind white sheep" for nothing, after all.

 

[Archer1215]

You talk about reading discussions but you don't seem to be learning from your exchanges with other people. For instance, as Walter pointed out to you, Schierke taught the residents of Enoch about the spirit that dwelled on their land unbeknownst to them. The idea being that worshipping that spirit would help them deal with supernatural threats in the future. Then I gave you examples in just the post above of how a witch's knowledge can help cope with astral creatures. I can add another one: certain berries act as a repulsive on trolls, as Schierke demonstrated. Isidro made good use of them in the series.

There wasn't any implication that worshiping the Lady of the Depths would physically protect them from monster attacks, no. I also forgot how the berries were the solution to dealing with the troll incident. No need for fighting back everyone, just toss berries at them and they'll all go away! That's exactly what happened.

Furthermore, you speak of practical reasons for dealing with astral creatures, and that takes us back to my above post. You do not actually know Griffith's motives. During the Millennium Falcon arc, people like you were arguing that Griffith didn't need an army and should just crown himself king using his supernatural powers. They were missing the point. His objective that to produce the Blast of the Astral World and the return of Fantasia. The same thing is happening here. But you're not seeing it, and instead are literally just spouting Falconia propaganda. "We're doing this for the good of mankind!"

I'm not saying any of that actually, as I've tried to make clear several times. You either lack sincerity or basic reading comprehension.

You're cute. It's just like I said above, the Dunning–Kruger effect in its full glory.

Right back at ya, babe

So let's say there is no other way for things to go except extermination and splitting the worlds. Would they do it immediately? No transition period? The trees would just grow and bam, the two worlds are split? And if not, how do they cope in the meantime? This "all or nothing" attitude is your main problem. You think you've got all the answers while the manga makes it clear we're missing pieces.

All or nothing clearly isn't the case. The merrows were able to seal the Sea God away after all. But the fact still remains that any solution we have seen involved either killing or locking these creatures away where they couldn't harm humans or benign creatures or otherwise cause any damage. Maybe you should yourself ask the question why the magi saw fit to separate the worlds in the first place instead of just dropping berries in front of caves every week or whatever, if it weren't obvious in the first place.

They followed the trolls because Casca and Farnese had been captured. It was a rescue mission.

They were always going to have to follow the trolls back to their lair and deal with them permanently. That was why Schierke sealed the cavern, so they couldn't harm the villagers anymore.

The beauty of discussion forums is that any person reading this thread can decide for themselves who has been open-minded and who has not. Who is posturing and who has legitimacy.

That I can certainly agree with.

You say you're open to ideas, and you acknowledge there's probably more to Griffith's goals than meets the eyes. But Aaz and I have laid out a notion for what that ulterior motive could very well be [exterminating astral creatures], and your objection is that it hasn't been explicitly laid out in Falconian policy yet. It really does seem to me that you aren't seeing the"nice guy" facade for what it is. The Falconians aren't "blind white sheep" for nothing, after all. If you think they're just going to go on a merry hunt with their demon overlord and not become complicit in dark shit, well, how else might that manifest?

Honestly, this whole thing has gone off the rails. I was never trying to say that they absolutely wouldn't eventually target benevolent creatures as well. I was saying that I didn't believe that Falconia, as it is now, would paint benign astral creatures with the same brush as the monsters they are actively fighting against. Not to begin with anyhow. The military campaigns they are embarking on now are to reclaim lost territory from hostile entities and they are only exterminating creatures because they are a threat to rebuilding a stable human society.

How could that hostility towards astral creatures in general manifest? I imagined it would be a gradual process if anything, as a new generation is brought up under Griffith's rule and taught solidarity and pro-human values in the face of a unifying non-human enemy. But then you have people like Sonia, Mule, and Raban, who would need a real push if they were going to start throwing in elves and such with man-eating monsters that are genuine threats to people. It's also possible that benign creatures aren't targeted for extermination directly but fall victim to urbanization and industrialization. There is a lot of room for added complexity here besides "Kill all the things right now because Griffith said so!" is all I'm saying.

 

[Aazealh]

There wasn't any implication that worshiping the Lady of the Depths would physically protect them from monster attacks, no. I also forgot how the berries were the solution to dealing with the troll incident. No need for fighting back everyone, just toss berries at them and they'll all go away! That's exactly what happened.

Like I said in the previous post, if you deliberately pretend not to understand what others are telling you because that might lead you to reconsider your views, what's the point of even having a conversation?

Let's step back for a little bit because this back and forth obviously isn't getting us anywhere. Griffith ordered Flora killed. That apostles did the deed and not humans is besides the point: he ordered it. You presume Griffith now has limitations to what he can do now because he has to look good in the public eye, but there's a myriad ways this could be circumvented, including by simply using apostles for these missions again. Moving on, you didn't really address the first point I raised: Griffith is the one who brought about Fantasia. This idea that he's only doing what's necessary to protect mankind just doesn't stand when confronted with that fact.

Now as for it only being about hostile astral creatures and not benevolent ones. First off, obviously, we don't know the nitty gritty of those campaigns. Is it just trolls and Jötunn that are being killed? We don't know. Second, Griffith's plan isn't just to secure the land. He's transforming it: highways, fields, barracks... He's remaking the world to conform to his desires. You're assuming that this won't have adverse effects on benevolent astral beings, but it will. Do you think they'll be diverting roads because elves live in that forest over there? Do you think brownies will be welcome in Falconia's housing districts? And that's just one layer of the astral world. Do you remember what Schierke said in Vritannis, about how barren it was on a spiritual level? How she had to resort to use the Blaze Wheel because no nature spirit could be found? It will be the same.

So to get back to the point Walter was making about Flora and magic users in general, that they represent an alternative to this course of action. I can guarantee you Flora would not agree with Griffith on how to deal with the situation Griffith killed Flora to make happen. And in case you want to nitpick: beyond extermination, capturing elves and using them as ingredients for healing salves wouldn't be much better. Same for enslaving goblins and having them work the mines.

All or nothing clearly isn't the case. The merrows were able to seal the Sea God away after all. But the fact still remains that any solution we have seen involved either killing or locking these creatures away where they couldn't harm humans or benign creatures or otherwise cause any damage. Maybe you should yourself ask the question why the magi saw fit to separate the worlds in the first place instead of just dropping berries in front of caves every week or whatever, if it weren't obvious in the first place.

First off, the word "magi" isn't used in Berserk. Magic users, even magicians if you want, but "magus" and its plural are specific terms that are never used in the series. Second, we don't know why they decided to split the worlds. Nor exactly how the world was back then. You'd do well not to assume too much about it, once again. But you're also ignoring the specific point I was making in that paragraph: creating a sufficiently large number of Forests of Spiritual Trees to cause the worlds to separate is not a simple process, nor a quick one. In the meantime, people would have to cope with these creatures. And as is made evident by the fact they still exist, they were not exterminated in the past. Why the decision to split the worlds and not to exterminate them? We're back to this very simple fact: the God Hand and witches like Flora clearly do not see eye to eye when it comes to the astral world, how it relates to humans, and how to deal with a situation like Fantasia.

They were always going to have to follow the trolls back to their lair and deal with them permanently. That was why Schierke sealed the cavern, so they couldn't harm the villagers anymore.

But don't you see? Sealing the Qliphoth is an alternative to exterminating the astral creatures dwelling there (trolls and others).

I was never trying to say that they absolutely wouldn't eventually target benevolent creatures as well. I was saying that I didn't believe that Falconia, as it is now, would paint benign astral creatures with the same brush as the monsters they are actively fighting against. Not to begin with anyhow.

Out of curiosity, what difference does it make to you whether they do it now or in three years? The finality is the same.

The military campaigns they are embarking on now are to reclaim lost territory from hostile entities and they are only exterminating creatures because they are a threat to rebuilding a stable human society.

So says our Lord Griffith, and he would never lie! Ah, those darn creatures that pose a threat to rebuilding society! If only someone hadn't merged the worlds! Good thing Griffith is there to fix this mess for us!

But then you have people like Sonia, Mule, and Raban, who would need a real push if they were going to start throwing in elves and such with man-eating monsters that are genuine threats to people.

As a reminder, Sonia was offering to smuggle human corpses to apostles in volume 23. Man-eating monsters are her friends.

 

[Walter]

I also forgot how the berries were the solution to dealing with the troll incident. No need for fighting back everyone, just toss berries at them and they'll all go away! That's exactly what happened.

Come on, this is just being disingenuous. We were talking about alternative ways of dealing with astral creatures. That is one. The problem was dealt with, the trolls scattered, and no one had to die. No it's not THE FINAL SOLUTION, but that wasn't in question. We were talking about non-eradication options for survival, right? Ask the humans struggling to live in Fantasia if they'd take a little knowledge and berries versus cowering in fear forever.

I think your stumbling block might be that you're looking for a kind of perfect, puzzle-piece solution to the world's problem beyond Griffith. Or that I've been insinuating that Flora and/or other witches can provide humanity with the solution for survival in this new world. They can't. At least, not immediately.

That's because Griffith engineered an existential problem for humanity that has only one easy way out: Dominion. The other way, separation, likely took centuries to establish, with humans adapting to that chaos by degrees over years. But that way of life was uprooted by Griffith, so of course things are fucked now, and of course no one has a plug-and-play solution to turn soft, ignorant humans into masters of astral creatures. Magic users however, offer a way of survival: A small bubble of solidity in the chaotic storm.

How could that hostility towards astral creatures in general manifest?

Not what I asked — I asked how would humans become complicit in dark shit, if it's not in eradicating astral creatures.

But then you have people like Sonia, Mule, and Raban, who would need a real push if they were going to start throwing in elves and such with man-eating monsters that are genuine threats to people.

Let's say we add Owen in the mix. So that's four whole people in the empire, stroking their chins and fretting over how complicated things have become as they pass by apostle-transformed humans caving in a brownie skull.

 

[judeaunt say]

i like how brownies and elves are the women and children of this discussion

 

[Archer1215]

Like I said in the previous post, if you deliberately pretend not to understand what others are telling you because that might lead you to reconsider your views, what's the point of even having a conversation?

You are so not the one to talk here.

You presume Griffith now has limitations to what he can do now because he has to good look in the public eye, but there's a myriad ways this could be circumvented, including by simply using apostles for these missions again.

Never said that.

Moving on, you didn't really address the first point I raised: Griffith is the one who brought about Fantasia. This idea that he's only doing what's necessary to protect mankind just doesn't stand when confronted with that fact.

Never said that either.

Now as for it only being about hostile astral creatures and not benevolent ones. First off, obviously, we don't know the nitty gritty of those campaigns. Is it just trolls and Jötunn that are being killed? We don't know.

We do know that the purpose of these campaigns was to exterminate hostile forces and reclaim territory. Another objective was rebuilding the dolmens to use the Sky Path. See Episodes 356-358. Nasty stuff that we didn't see? Maybe? I'm not one for making broad assumptions like that.

Second, Griffith's plan isn't just to secure the land. He's transforming it: highways, fields, barracks... He's remaking the world to conform to his desires. You're assuming that this won't have adverse effects on benevolent astral beings, but it will. Do you think they'll be diverting roads because elves live in that forest over there? Do you think brownies will be welcome in Falconia's housing districts?

Actually if you see my reply to Walter I brought up that exact possibility.

So to get back to the point Walter was making about Flora and magic users in general, that they represent an alternative to this course of action. I can guarantee you Flora would not agree with Griffith on how to deal with the situation Griffith killed Flora to make happen. And in case you want to nitpick: beyond extermination, capturing elves and using them as ingredients for healing salves wouldn't be much better. Same for enslaving goblins and having them work the mines.

Seeing as Flora was guarding the Spirit Tree in the first place it goes without saying she wouldn't be down with what he's doing. Would she be against killing an entire population of trolls or giants to protect a human civilization? I don't believe so. And yeah, while there are alternatives it always comes down to locking them up and away so they can't harm humans or anything else. Because these things are dangerous.

But don't you see? Sealing the Qliphoth is an alternative to exterminating the astral creatures dwelling there (trolls and others).

An alternative that, like I said, involves getting them the hell away from humans so they can't bother them ever again. Not unlike the Forest of the Spirit Tree.

So says our Lord Griffith, and he would never lie! Ah, those darn creatures that pose a threat to rebuilding society! If only someone hadn't merged the worlds! Good thing Griffith is there to fix this mess for us!

Keep talking like that and maybe you'll start believing it.

As a reminder, Sonia was offering to smuggle human corpses to apostles in volume 23. Man-eating monsters are her friends.

Also a reminder, Sonia was friendly to both Schierke and Ivalera in Vrittanis. A witch and a benign astral creature are her friends.

Come on, this is just being disingenuous. We were talking about alternative ways of dealing with astral creatures. That is one. The problem was dealt with, the trolls scattered, and no one had to die. No it's not THE FINAL SOLUTION, but that wasn't in question. We were talking about non-eradication options for survival, right? Ask the humans struggling to live in Fantasia if they'd take a little knowledge and berries versus cowering in fear forever.

You're right and that was probably a little immature of me. But it's bit difficult to keep being sincere when continuously confronted with insincerity.

I think your stumbling block might be that you're looking for a kind of perfect, puzzle-piece solution to the world's problem beyond Griffith. Or that I've been insinuating that Flora and/or other witches can provide humanity with the solution for survival in this new world. They can't. At least, not immediately.

Well, I kind of see the Forest of the Spirit Tree as that. It was the perfect solution because it kept the humans on one side, the nasty things on the other. There might have been ways to mitigate the dangers of hostile astral creatures, but barring that the only way for humans to live in safety and prosperity is for these monsters to go away. Whether that be by killing them all, locking them up in caves, or leeching away the World Spiral Tree o separate the worlds.

That's because Griffith engineered an existential problem for humanity that has only one easy way out: Dominion. The other way, separation, likely took centuries to establish, with humans adapting to that chaos by degrees over years. But that way of life was uprooted by Griffith, so of course things are fucked now, and of course no one has a plug-and-play solution to turn soft, ignorant humans into masters of astral creatures. Magic users however, offer a way of survival: A small bubble of solidity in the chaotic storm.

Not what I asked — I asked how would humans become complicit in dark shit, if it's not in eradicating astral creatures.

They arguably are already complicit in something sinister, even if they don't quite understand it. They don't necessarily need to go around stomping on elves for that (not that they couldn't). But yes, I feel like I already answered that question. Creating a world for humans in the way Griffith is talking about is already harmful even if it doesn't seem outwardly evil on its face.

Let's say we add Owen in the mix. So that's four whole people in the empire, stroking their chins and fretting over how complicated things have become as they pass by apostle-transformed humans caving in a brownie skull.

I think it would be more than just those four but sure.

 

[Aazealh]

You are so not the one to talk here.

What views should I reconsider? That magic users like Flora don't see eye to eye with the God Hand when it comes to dealing with the astral world? That Griffith's motivations aren't simply to protect mankind from external threats?

Never said that.

You bring up things like: "the citizens of Falconia and the humans under Griffith's command aren't likely to view benign creatures in the same light as ones that are harmful to their quality of life" in order to push the idea that Griffith's plans make a specific distinction between removing the bad astral beings and leaving the nice ones alone. All of this to justify the idea that witches would do the same thing Falconia is doing in order to deal with that situation. This is literally the original point of contention between you and Walter.

Never said that either.

You're still not addressing the point. You keep saying Griffith's campaign has a single purpose: reclaiming land and securing territories for humans. But that land and those territories were safe before Griffith brought about the Blast of the Astral World. It was his doing, which means that if all he wanted was for these lands to be safe, he simply had to not merge the worlds to begin with. He's offering a solution to a problem he created, which means he has ulterior motives. Besides, what's in question here isn't just Griffith's actions so far, but his general objective and what it entails.

We do know that the purpose of these campaigns was to exterminate hostile forces and reclaim territory. Another objective was rebuilding the dolmens to use the Sky Path. See Episodes 356-358. Nasty stuff that we didn't see? Maybe? I'm not one for making broad assumptions like that.

Remember what I said at the beginning about being imaginative? There is value in being able to see beyond the immediate present, and not thinking that because the archvillain said something, it must be exactly as it was presented. Griffith is not being straightforward about his goals, big and small. "We do know the purpose". We know one purpose. But, as I said above, Griffith has ulterior motives, otherwise he wouldn't have created that situation to begin with.

Actually if you see my reply to Walter I brought up that exact possibility.

It's good that you brought it up just then, but that begs the question: why aren't you taking it into account in your general narrative? You've been arguing on a technicality this whole time: the citizens of Falconia wouldn't "paint them all with the same brush". But if they disappear all the same, what does it matter? And you're also trying to have it both ways by saying "maybe it'll change over time". So let me repeat a previous question: what difference does it make to you whether they exterminate other astral creatures now or in three years? The end result is the same.

Seeing as Flora was guarding the Spirit Tree in the first place it goes without saying she wouldn't be down with what he's doing. Would she be against killing an entire population of trolls or giants to protect a human civilization? I don't believe so. And yeah, while there are alternatives it always comes down to locking them up and away so they can't harm humans or anything else. Because these things are dangerous.

You're again trying to have it both ways. Griffith killed Flora so he could create the current situation. But nothing says the choice is only to kill the astral beings or to kill the humans. Before the worlds were split apart, these creatures were handled in a way other than extermination, as proven by the fact they still exist. This really is the heart of the disagreement here: you believe a world in which witches thrive would not differ from what Falconia offers. I don't think that's true. Also, according to Raban, these creatures represent no danger to Falconia itself since the city is protected by the Wingstones.

An alternative that, like I said, involves getting them the hell away from humans so they can't bother them ever again. Not unlike the Forest of the Spirit Tree.

Yes, and? Again, Griffith brought about the current situation for a reason. There was no problem because they were separated. It was undone on purpose.

The point here is that magic users had chosen one way, and what Falconia is offering is another way. And Griffith also conveniently made it so his way was the only available one. You've dismissed every example Walter and I provided, but it has been shown that there are methods to keep these creatures away beyond just splitting the worlds. The implication of Schierke's speech to the villagers of Enoch was indeed that worshipping their local spirit was a first step towards being able to better handle supernatural threats. Inscribing protective wards throughout the village would also certainly help prevent intrusions. Planting the shrubs that carry berries the troll dislike around the place would also help. And so on. These are mere glimpses, and beyond all these details, the main idea of witches vs Falconia is that magic users would be a common thing. Each village having its witch. That is how mankind could cope, as Walter originally stated. No one said that would be a perfect world, but there's a big difference between what that would be like and what Griffith is doing to the world right now.

Also, because you keep insisting on how horrible those creatures are (and I mean, they are dangerous monsters, no one has said otherwise), I must point out that upon seeing the damage done to Enoch, Guts reflects on the fact that what they did to the town isn't worse than what a passing army would have done. Something to maybe think about in your vision of prosperous, safe humans. The world of Berserk before volume 34 wasn't exactly filled with safety and happiness.

Keep talking like that and maybe you'll start believing it.

I was just paraphrasing your words. "We know the purpose!" We know what Griffith has stated is the purpose of his actions, and you are arguing from the position that he is completely truthful and that further actions should be considered separately. It's your choice.

Also a reminder, Sonia was friendly to both Schierke and Ivalera in Vrittanis. A witch and a benign astral creature are her friends.

That wasn't so much a point about Sonia as it was about the fact apostles aren't any better than trolls. The people of Falconia, including Sonia, Mule and Raban, are allied with man-eating monsters. Monsters like Rakshas, who tried to kill Rickert right in the middle of Falconia. I guess Sonia wasn't there to scold him at the time.

 

[Aazealh]

I figured I'd recapitulate my thoughts on episode 360 to try and get the thread back on topic in case anyone is still interested in discussing it.

I appreciated the little insight we get into Casca's condition. It confirms she gets triggered whenever she encounters anything from her past, as we saw happen last episode with memories of Judo. She also explains that Guts' face and voice are masked by these dark images and therefore cannot reach her. It might not seem much, but it's a step towards understanding her problem and how it works, meaning it's also a step towards counteracting it. Danan's comment on her needing rest, while not surprising, makes me wonder about the speed of her recovery. Specifically, I'm curious whether resting and getting used to being herself again will really facilitate the process, and what form those improvements will take.

The biggest moment in this episode was definitely Farnese's "official" acceptance as a witch. It's the culmination of her study of magic over the past 13 volumes (although that really was just three months!). She's essentially graduating from being Schierke's student, and will now be taught by the queen of elves, which is about as good an outcome as one could possibly expect. It's a big milestone for her character development, especially when we think back to where she started and how much ground she's covered since then. Getting her own witch outfit is fitting for the occasion, and I like the design of it. It's distinctive and unique, but still unmistakably marks her as a witch. That the outfit is from Danan is also meaningful because she'll be learning from her. I expect that she will be wearing it for a long time, likely until the end of the series. The question of the staff remains. Will she be getting one? I think she won't leave empty-handed, but also that she won't just get a standard witch staff. I anticipate that other characters will pick up new gear and skills as well over the next volume or so.

Regarding her desire to learn about healing the mind, I feel that this makes perfect sense within the context of the story. She is deeply concerned about Casca and wants to help her out. That is the best way to do it. I look forward to seeing their new relationship blossom. Beyond Casca, it also seems pretty clear to me that her future skills will allow her to help Guts deal with the Beast of Darkness. And if I may be so bold, it might one day come in handy to confront Ubik. That being said, I don't expect Farnese to specialize herself so much that she'll do nothing but take care of the group's mental well-being. I look forward to seeing what other skills she picks up in Elfhelm (from Danan or from other people) and how they will be applied in the future. Lastly, I wonder if there will be any complementarity between what she learns from Danan and what Puck and Ivalera can do. As a side note, I found it amusing how Danan ropes in Farnese about helping with the cleaning. She pretends it's an afterthought but it's pretty clear Farnese's going to be scrubbing the whole place.

As for Schierke, I also felt this episode was a clear affirmation of her talents. Not just as "the witch in the group", but as a prodigy who is both naturally gifted and hard-working. That Gedflynn offers to teach her a technique that is usually reserved for when someone becomes a guru is among the biggest possible validations she could get. She's basically already at the master level. I look forward to seeing that in action, as well as whatever else she'll be able to pick up from the old man. Daimons are interesting in more than one way. They can be former humans and are not tied to a particular place, meaning it's possible we will see them come to Schierke's aid more than once. It will also in theory allow her to call upon them even in places that are devoid of local spirits... Like Falconia? Of course the big deal here is the possibility to finally see the full extent of Flora's power in that new form, in addition to her and Schierke having another conversation that's not just in a dream. But other than that it'll be cool to see what other beings she can reach out to and what that will allow the group to deal with.

It will be interesting to see how the relationship between Schierke and Farnese elvolves. I expect it will remain that of teacher and student, or at least of senior and junior. However the fact Farnese will be learning from Danan (who has her own set of unique skills) means she won't simply be relegated to performing lesser tasks while Schierke handles the big stuff. It allows for a more much interesting way forward than if Farnese had simply stuck to the standard cursus. Still on the topic of magic skills, it seems as evident to me as it was during her introduction that Molda will end up acting as a rival to Schierke at some point. There are several ways that could play out, and I look forward to seeing it unfold. Between the magic training and Casca needing to rest, we also have the confirmation that the group will be staying on Skellig at the very least a few more days. No surprise there, and I think a few weeks wouldn't be an indulgence after such a long and hard journey, but how long each of them will be staying is still an unknown at the moment.

The next episode will feature the Skull Knight's conversation with Guts. A lot of people seem to expect him to talk about his past, and while that time certainly draws near, I think the more immediate topic will rather be the current state of the world, what Griffith has been doing and why, and what Guts will be doing himself. It makes sense to me that as Guts reaches this point of uncertainty, his journey over but his goal not completely fulfilled, the matter of Griffith would return and in a manner that cannot be ignored anymore. The Skull Knight is a good vehicle for that, he will no doubt have some insights to offer. It also makes for a good prelude to the boy's arrival.

 

[Walter]

Good summation!

She's essentially graduating from being Schierke's student, and will now be taught by the queen of elves, which is about as good an outcome as one could possibly expect. It's a big milestone for her character development, especially when we think back to where she started and how much ground she's covered since then.

Yep, we've said so before but I think Farnese has probably had the most character development in the series. Thinking back to how she was the problem child of the Vandimion family, never taken seriously, a burden everyone around her, selfish, destructive—versus now—the change is striking. And while it's natural to attribute that change just to her relationship with Guts, more specifically it's the world that Guts revealed to her by being branded. She sought to understand how he could so confidently confront the world that terrified her so much, and ultimately to know the truth of the world. I'd say she landed squarely in the right place for that.

Regarding her desire to learn about healing the mind, I feel that this makes perfect sense within the context of the story. She is deeply concerned about Casca and wants to help her out. That is the best way to do it. I look forward to seeing their new relationship blossom. Beyond Casca, it also seems pretty clear to me that her future skills will allow her to help Guts deal with the Beast of Darkness.

I feel like what matters now is certainly Casca, and that's how she's applying herself. But even before that, it seemed like she really resonated with healing. There was a tiny bit of foreshadowing back in 331 (Shooting Star), when Farnese realizes she can truly help by healing—she's actually moved to tears over it. Healing is an interesting counterbalance to when we first encountered her, a young woman with a fascination with destructive fire.

As a side note, I found it amusing how Danan ropes in Farnese about helping with the cleaning. She pretends it's an afterthought but it's pretty clear Farnese's going to be scrubbing the whole place.

Danan's cleaning thing, I feel like it's Miura making a not-so-subtle commentary about humanity in general. This great, powerful elf has to deign to clean up after humans because of the messes they've made. Imagining the whole world's scenario from her perspective: Humans really fucked it up.

As for Schierke, I also felt this episode was a clear affirmation of her talents. Not just as "the witch in the group", but as a prodigy who is both naturally gifted and hard-working. That Gedflynn offers to teach her a technique that is usually reserved for when someone becomes a guru is among the biggest possible validations she could get. She's basically already at the master level.

It felt a little premature to me. I'm not saying Schierke isn't all that, but being given the treatment of a full guru seems A BIT MUCH. Ged must have curved the grading scale a bit knowing that she was Flora's pupil. I think beyond acknowledging her skill in magic, I feel like these advanced studies could be an interesting opportunity to see Schierke sweat a bit under Ged's tutelage, and also give him a chance to shine.

The next episode will feature the Skull Knight's conversation with Guts. A lot of people seem to expect him to talk about his past, and while that time certainly draws near, I think the more immediate topic will rather be the current state of the world, what Griffith has been doing and why, and what Guts will be doing himself. It makes sense to me that as Guts reaches this point of uncertainty, his journey over but his goal not completely fulfilled, the matter of Griffith would return and in a manner that cannot be ignored anymore. The Skull Knight is a good vehicle for that, he will no doubt have some insights to offer. It also makes for a good prelude to the boy's arrival.

I'm hungry for his origin, but in hindsight, it feels like it might be improper or at least not in character for the Skull Knight to lay that out himself. Maybe a bit after this meeting, Danan will allude to the history herself (or her recollection of it). Otherwise, certainly it fits for SK to be the one to provide context on the state of the world, and lift the curtain a bit about what's on the horizon. That's his role in the story.

 

[Archer1215]

Daimons are interesting in more than one way. They can be former humans and are not tied to a particular place, meaning it's possible we will see them come to Schierke's aid more than once. It will also in theory allow her to call upon them even in places that are devoid of local spirits... Like Falconia? Of course the big deal here is the possibility to finally see the full extent of Flora's power in that new form, in addition to her and Schierke having another conversation that's not just in a dream. But other than that it'll be cool to see what other beings she can reach out to and what that will allow the group to deal with.

Did not register to me that these could be possibly be used in urban areas where local spirits are difficult to reach but it makes sense. I think the real question to ask is how they can be used, and if they allow for similar abilities as contracts with spirits of nature. Can Schierke make a contract with Flora and cast a powerful fire spell, for instance? Or will they instead purely be guiding figures with an elevated understanding of the Astral World and be used to provide us with important new information or set the characters on a new path? Either way they are definitely interesting and I look forward to how they are expanded upon.

Between the magic training and Casca needing to rest, we also have the confirmation that the group will be staying on Skellig at the very least a few more days. No surprise there, and I think a few weeks wouldn't be an indulgence after such a long and hard journey, but how long each of them will be staying is still an unknown at the moment.

There doesn't seem to be much urgency in leaving before too much time has passed in the outside world, though I guess that's hard to do when they don't really have a destination or goal in mind. With the Boy on the way I wonder if that lack of urgency could change soon. I also wonder if they may end up staying longer than expected for whatever reason. With the amount of factors to think about it's pretty difficult to predict how long they will stay and how much time will progress outside the island.

Danan's cleaning thing, I feel like it's Miura making a not-so-subtle commentary about humanity in general. This great, powerful elf has to deign to clean up after humans because of the messes they've made. Imagining the whole world's scenario from her perspective: Humans really fucked it up.

I wonder how much of her time will be spent learning versus cleaning. It was Danan in Episode 359 who said it was Casca's situation to overcome and who commented on Farnese taking on more responsibility in the Corridor of Dreams, so while I'm sure there is something practical and helpful for Farnese to gain from a magical standpoint, I also think their interaction will be one of Danan getting it through to Farnese that this is still ultimately Casca's bridge to cross and there is only so much she can do for her. Not that she can't help to ease that process.

Whatever it is I imagine it will still involve Casca being the primary agent in her own recovery process. If I were to speculate then I would lean towards it being some kind of soothing effect that would allow Casca to more easily deal with the ominous shadow hanging over her and confront and process her memories herself.

Beyond Casca, it also seems pretty clear to me that her future skills will allow her to help Guts deal with the Beast of Darkness.

I had the same thought actually. We had that ominous warning from the Beast on the Sea Horse and the Berserker armor's od was becoming too powerful for Schierke to reign it in with just her luminous body at the island of the Sea God... It would be interesting if Farnese's responsibility she took on for herself in the Corridor of Dream eventually extends to not only helping Casca with her trauma, but also to Guts as well. Especially if Casca were also deeply involved herself in whatever process that would entail.

And if I may be so bold, it might one day come in handy to confront Ubik.

I'm hungry for his origin, but in hindsight, it feels like it might be improper or at least not in character for the Skull Knight to lay that out himself. Maybe a bit after this meeting, Danan will allude to the history herself (or her recollection of it). Otherwise, certainly it fits for SK to be the one to provide context on the state of the world, and lift the curtain a bit about what's on the horizon. That's his role in the story.

I agree. I did say before the episode that I didn't expect too much on his origins just yet and that hasn't really changed now. On the idea of someone else providing this story... why not daimonified Flora in a talk with Schierke? She has some shared history with Skully, and she has more exposure to the world of humans beyond Skellig's shores, much more than someone like Danan. So she may be appropriate if someone else were to spill the beans besides him.

The present and the future is what I most anticipate from Skully now. This is where a rough roadmap for the remainder of the story could potentially be drawn up, which is exciting. Things like what is Griffith really up to, what is the current status of the other four God Hand and what are they doing, what is the Age of Darkness really, what's the next step... whatever it is he has to say it will be enlightening.

If nothing else, it's also a great way to raise the stakes with new information before the Boy shows up, like Aaz said.

 

[CelestialRequiem]

The next episode will feature the Skull Knight's conversation with Guts. A lot of people seem to expect him to talk about his past, and while that time certainly draws near, I think the more immediate topic will rather be the current state of the world, what Griffith has been doing and why, and what Guts will be doing himself.

Yep, definitely agree with that. Especially with how he started the conversation with Guts. He's probably in no hurry to elucidate anything that far in the past.

 

[Aazealh]

Danan's cleaning thing, I feel like it's Miura making a not-so-subtle commentary from Miura about humanity in general. This great, powerful elf has to deign to clean up after humans because of the messes they've made. Imagining the whole world's scenario from her perspective: Humans really fucked it up.

Haha, actually I think it's tied to the nature of elves. As we saw before, Danan is the queen but she also has to clean up after the others, like a mother cleaning after her kids. That's why the capital punishment for usurping the throne was to help clean for the day (which Puck really lived as if he'd be condemned to some atrocious fate). That said I agree that she would probably be pretty critical of mankind when it comes to the overall state of the world. I'm honestly really curious to know what she would have to say about the God Hand for example.

It felt a little premature to me. Not saying Schierke isn't all that. But being given the treatment of a full guru seems A BIT MUCH. Ged must have curved the grading scale a bit knowing that she was Flora's pupil. I think beyond acknowledging her skill in magic, I feel like these advanced studies could be an interesting opportunity to see Schierke sweat a bit under Ged's tutelage, and also give him a chance to shine.

The way I see it, she's definitely not going to be considered on the same level as Gedflynn and the other three Great Gurus, but they're teaching her this advanced technique because she's become really good at summoning and has gathered so much real life experience. She's also actually taught magic to an adult in three months, something the other kids thought was impossible. So... is she not a master already? I think her being Flora's student played a part, but in addition I imagine Gedflynn knows she's likely to have to go out in the world and will need some heavy duty techniques in her arsenal. She doesn't have time for the full cursus. Will she have time to learn how to fly though? That's the big question haha. Maybe Danan will offer her a broom. Or will it be Farnese's?

I'm hungry for his origin, but in hindsight, it feels like it might be improper or at least not in character for the Skull Knight to lay that out himself. Maybe a bit after this meeting, Danan will allude to the history herself (or her recollection of it). Otherwise, certainly it fits for SK to be the one to provide context on the state of the world, and lift the curtain a bit about what's on the horizon. That's his role in the story.

Agreed. I think another conversation will take place at some point after this talk where Danan or maybe the Great Gurus might shine some light on those ancient times. And maybe then SK himself will step up to fill in the blanks. They also have the matter of the Berserk's armor to discuss; it will have to come up eventually. Also, random idea but wouldn't it be great if the Skull Knight, always so regal and all, actually addressed Danan with the respect due to a sovereign? I'd be there for that.

I think the real question to ask is how they can be used, and if they allow for similar abilities as contracts with spirits of nature. Can Schierke make a contract with Flora and cast a powerful fire spell, for instance? Or will they instead purely be guiding figures with an elevated understanding of the Astral World and be used to provide us with important new information or set the characters on a new path?

I think Flora's case implies they will be able to lend their power in battle. However I'm also looking forward to their other characteristics, as well as to seeing what a Daimon whose power isn't elemental might look like.

There doesn't seem to be much urgency in leaving before too much time has passed in the outside world, though I guess that's hard to do when they don't really have a destination or goal in mind. With the Boy on the way I wonder if that lack of urgency could change soon. I also wonder if they may end up staying longer than expected for whatever reason. With the amount of factors to think about it's pretty difficult to predict how long they will stay and how much time will progress outside the island.

Yeah there's a lot of ways it could go. This isn't new but I believe the two main factors will be the desire to rescue their son and the need to prevent the God Hand's plans from coming into fruition. It will be interesting to see how these objectives both align and conflict with Guts' self-destructive urge for revenge. What makes our heroes especially suited for the task is of course the very personal relationship they have with Griffith. So anyway, I think plans to depart will start forming after they have more information about what's going on in the outside world, and especially what Griffith has been up to, then be solidified by revelations on the nature of Femto's corporeal body and the fate of Guts and Casca's son. These elements may also serve as different motivations for different people within the group.

The peculiar flow of time around the island strikes me as a secondary element, albeit one that will play an important role. I anticipate that Griffith's plans will be well under way by the time they return to the mainland. I've also been wondering whether some members of the group might leave earlier than others for some reason, which would result in Schierke and Isidro aging into adulthood. Although to be honest I'm not sure whether that makes sense in the context of the story. Regarding Elfhelm itself, I view it as kind of a Tom Bombadil situation. It will be the last place in the world to fall to the God Hand, but once everything else has fallen, so will it eventually. Not a "forever safe" haven in that sense.

Especially if Casca were also deeply involved herself in whatever process that would entail.

I can't picture a scenario where Guts finds peace from his trauma that doesn't revolve around Casca. Her being his salvation has been a central theme of the series. Beyond just psychological trauma, I'm also looking forward to a situation where she will be the one saving him.

 

[Guy]

Hello, just spitballing some ideas/ questions that have come to my mind after this latest episode. I post mainly to understand the Berserk world a little better and keep the conversation going. Feel free to correct me if I am referencing things incorrectly or have some misunderstandings about the glossary/ berserk world concepts. I apologize for writing this quickly/ choppily / with less critical thinking than some of the posts I read on here:

If you are branded, can you essentially never become a Daimon because you are doomed to the Vortex?

An idea I know Aaz has talked about is that the Skull Knight may have passed the badass / willpower "threshold" necessary to become something like one of these beings. I mean this in the sense that he was a "hero," a relative term, that was not willing to move on from the physical world and end up in some formless collective conscious, which seems to kind of be what the afterlife is like in the Berserk world, from my understanding, split up by Karma. Spectors don't move on either/ stick around in the Interstice, but they ultimately end up in these karmically split afterlives as well it seems (maybe even someone like the Skullknight will too if he can reach his goals). The Skullknight may not be a Daimon but he is more than just a mere spector with magic armor, as we know.

In turn, is the fact the Skull Knight is still around enough evidence to say he was not branded during his lifetime? If it is not, would this mean someone branded can delay going to the Vortex after dying if they have "hero-like qualities?"

I wonder how close someone like Guts is to reaching the status of being a "hero" like some of these Daimons that we are told used to be humans. Would he come close to sticking around to some capacity if he weren't branded and still had unfinished business? It is probably safe to say that Guts is the strongest pure human on the planet right now, and maybe even ever at this stage if we are just talking physical combat ability lol. He is different than his contemporaries, seemingly too big to just move on in death like the masses, similar to Griffith and Gaiseric but without the inherent elitism of the former/ pedigree of the latter (Of note Miura likes the letter G for badass humans with a lot of willpower it seems, Guts + Godot + Ged included).

It may be that you would have to know magic like Flora to some capacity to become a Daimon. With that being said, I have also never pictured Gaiseric as using magic himself (Please note I am not saying the skull knight is a Daimon, but he is more Daimon-like than Spector-Like I would say, in the sense that he has not moved on from the physical world primarily due to his willpower, not the more pathetic reasons for spectors sticking around). In short, I can't really imagine a human that became a Daimon, or even Gaiseric during his time, having too much more willpower/ "hero"-like willpower than Guts has now. It may take a combination of greatness and magical ability to become a former-human Daimon, but I wonder how close Guts is to the willpower it took for Gaiseric to become whatever he is right now. And, as I mentioned before, I wonder if the Skull Knight was able to become what he is now despite being ultimately doomed to the vortex if he WAS in fact branded during his lifetime, along with his Kingdom. Something tells me Guts has some things going for him that will make it so he never has to find out .


Finally, I hope you guys eventually have a podcast / re-read of volume 24 since it would probably clear up a lot of my understanding of these things. I appreciate that those projects take a lot of time/ effort though. That volume in particular would probably be pretty demanding for the podcast given the amount of information that is presented (not sure if Puella has translated it).

 

[Aazealh]

Hi Guy, here are some answers to your questions.

If you are branded, can you essentially never become a Daimon because you are doomed to the Vortex?

We don't know the details of how one becomes a Daimon, so it's hard to say. It could very well be that the Brand would make it impossible, but we don't know at this point.

An idea I know Aaz has talked about is that the Skull Knight may have passed the badass / willpower "threshold" necessary to become something like one of these beings. I mean this in the sense that he was a "hero," a relative term, that was not willing to move on from the physical world and end up in some formless collective conscious, which seems to kind of be what the afterlife is like in the Berserk world, from my understanding, split up by Karma. Spectors don't move on either/ stick around in the Interstice, but they ultimately end up in these karmically split afterlives as well it seems (maybe even someone like the Skullknight will too if he can reach his goals). The Skullknight may not be a Daimon but he is more than just a mere spector with magic armor, as we know.

To clarify, we know that the Skull Knight is a human soul encased in a magical armor. We also know that he died while wearing the Berserk's armor. The old assumption is that the Sovereign of the Flower Storm used her power to allow his soul to subsist in the corporeal world instead of moving on (by encasing it in said armor). With the introduction of the concept of Daimons in this episode, we have to consider how this might or might not have played a role in him becoming what he currently is.

There are several possibilities. The first is that it did not come into play at all. Gaiseric died and his soul was encased in a magical armor. The second is that it's tangentially related: his soul could only be encased in that manner because he was a formidable man. The third would have him actually become a Daimon, and then have Danan bring him back and encase his soul. The fourth is that he is in fact "just" a Daimon, and only visits the corporeal world periodically, otherwise residing in the astral world. There are more but these I feel are the main ones. I like option two myself. It doesn't change anything but helps make sense of it.

is the fact the Skull Knight is still around enough evidence to say he was not branded during his lifetime?

No, I don't think it is.

I wonder how close someone like Guts is to reaching the status of being a "hero" like some of these Daimons that we are told used to be humans.

Guts is exceptionally strong, so he would probably fit the bill. But again, we don't know what the criteria are. And it doesn't really matter, since he's the main character and this isn't where the story is going.

It may be that you would have to know magic like Flora to some capacity to become a Daimon.

That is not what Gedflynn says in the episode. Some Daimons were once humans, and among those human Daimons, some were magicians.

 

[ApostleBob]

Random storytelling speculation... Has anyone else considered that since Schierke is possibly about to commune with Flora, that we may get a backstory of Gaiseric from both SK's point of view, but also from Flora and Danan's, and that it might differ? It would be interesting to see if the perspective on events is viewed differently. As the emperor of mankind, Gaiseric might view the destruction of his kingdom and his role in it differently than Gedflynn, Danan, and Flora.

 

[Aazealh]

Has anyone else considered that since Schierke is possibly about to commune with Flora, that we may get a backstory of Gaiseric from both SK's point of view, but also from Flora and Danan's, and that it might differ?

The possibility that Gaiseric's story could come from Danan or even Flora was indeed mentioned a few times in the thread. I don't think anyone speculated about the versions differing however.

It would be interesting to see if the perspective on events is viewed differently. As the emperor of mankind, Gaiseric might view the destruction of his kingdom and his role in it differently than Gedflynn, Danan, and Flora.

Calling him the "emperor of mankind" is overdoing it a little. As far as we know he had a large empire but he didn't rule the whole world. Also, presumably he and the others were all on the same team, so I don't expect they'd have very different takes. I also can't imagine the Skull Knight embellishing his past, that doesn't really fit his character.

 

[ApostleBob]

Calling him the "emperor of mankind" is overdoing it a little. As far as we know he had a large empire but he didn't rule the whole world. Also, presumably he and the others were all on the same team, so I don't expect they'd have very different takes. I also can't imagine the Skull Knight embellishing his past, that doesn't really fit his character.

Probably some Warhammer 40k creeping in there a little in regards to the Emperor. I've been down that rabbit hole recently. But Gaeseric certainly sounds like he stood out above all other leaders at the time and was able to unite much of humanity. And we know that the mages have an aversion to the manmade and prefer nature. Perhaps this is simply because of the Holy See's persecutions, but I get the impression that they cloister away from civilization as a part of their craft as well. And yes, they do appear to share a side, but it seems much more like an alliance than necessarily the same side. I'm not saying one side is going to exaggerate or lie, but the perspective of events from mages might be more big picture 'how it happened' vs. Gaeseric's personal story and what led to choices made. Similar to how many people have heard about the Eclipse at this point, but Guts has still kept many aspects of it to himself alone.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that Miura has an interesting way in which the ancient lore can be presented in two different ways and use slightly different point of view of the mages and SK to frame what happened a millennia ago.

 

[Aazealh]

Gaeseric

You know, I see people use this spelling for his name and I just realized I have no idea where it comes from. As far as we know the name is Gaiseric (ガイゼリック). Miura uses a slightly different spelling than for the historical figure (ゼ instead of セ), so he might go for a variation like "Gaizeric" in the Latin alphabet if he cared, but I don't see a case for "Gæ" instead of "Gai".

I guess what I'm getting at, is that Miura has an interesting way in which the ancient lore can be presented in two different ways and use slightly different point of view of the mages and SK to frame what happened a millennia ago.

It could be complementary I guess, but I would imagine the more personal tale to be the most interesting one.

 

[ApostleBob]

You know, I see people use this spelling for his name and I just realized I have no idea where it comes from. As far as we know the name is Gaiseric (ガイゼリック). Miura uses a slightly different spelling than for the historical figure (ゼ instead of セ), so he might go for a variation like "Gaizeric" in the Latin alphabet if he cared, but I don't see a case for "Gæ" instead of "Gai".

Ah noted. Not intentional. 'Gaiseric' is the way to go. Excited to get some answers to his origin and alliance with the mages.