Episode 364

[rasputin]

It might have already been posted here, but book 41 looks like it will be on sale this December 24th. Regular version and special version with canvas art and drama cd.

『ベルセルク』第41巻の通常版と特装版が12月24日に発売決定。特装版にはキャンバスアートと旧アニメキャストが演じる「キャスカの目覚め」を描いたドラマCDが同梱（電ファミニコゲーマー） - Yahoo!ニュース

　白泉社は9月6日に、三浦建太郎氏が手掛けた漫画『ベルセルク』の第41巻の通常版と特装版が12月24日（金）に発売することを、ベルセルク公式Twitterにて発表した。

news.yahoo.co.jp

 

[Aazealh]

It might have already been posted here, but book 41 looks like it will be on sale this December 24th. Regular version and special version with canvas art and drama cd.

Yeah it's been posted a while back, basically within minutes of being announced.

 

[Zaitoon1337]

That he would help Guts in the final battle against Femto? Seems like a stretch to me...

Or maybe play the role of keeping him sane and not lose completely to the beast of darkness.

 

[Aazealh]

Or maybe play the role of keeping him sane and not lose completely to the beast of darkness.

Well, just to be clear I do believe the boy will play a key role in defeating Femto, but I don't think him doing pretend play with his dad's armor foreshadows anything specific. It's just a nice moment between them. If it were to hint at anything, I think it would rather be that the armor has no effect on him, but honestly there's no real ground for it at this point.

 

[Nosferatugatsu16]

That he would help Guts in the final battle against Femto? Seems like a stretch to me...

Has it been mentioned here yet? That Femto cannot influence the Boy when he is the one controlling the body Yet when Griffith Saved Casca on the hill of swords that was the Boy influencing Griffith to Go and save Casca. That tells me he can help his father in the fight against griffith

 

[Aazealh]

Has it been mentioned here yet? That Femto cannot influence the Boy when he is the one controlling the body Yet when Griffith Saved Casca on the hill of swords that was the Boy influencing Griffith to Go and save Casca. That tells me he can help his father in the fight against griffith

Hi. Yeah I mentioned that something like 17 years ago. Not even kidding! But if you read the entire conversation you'll see I was specifically replying to the idea that the boy and Guts playing together in this episode was foreshadowing for what would happen at the end of the story. That's what I said seems like a stretch to me. I think their time together here is simply about bonding as a father and son, which is also important in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Nosferatugatsu16]

Hi. Yeah I mentioned that something like 17 years ago. Not even kidding! But if you read the entire conversation you'll see I was specifically replying to the idea that the boy and Guts playing together in this episode was foreshadowing for what would happen at the end of the story. That's what I said seems like a stretch to me. I think their time together here is simply about bonding as a father and son, which is also important in the grand scheme of things.

Ohh i see the kid and the armor then my take on that is when they kid 1st met guts in the beach he also climbed on the back of Guts and was seemingly interested on the armor. I cannot say per se if this is related to any future things but my one take on this is that the kid does seem interested on the armor and he also has been confirmed to have the powers to wake up his father while going berserk like How schierke can

 

[Aazealh]

Ohh i see the kid and the armor then my take on that is when they kid 1st met guts in the beach he also climbed on the back of Guts and was seemingly interested on the armor.

Yeah everyone's aware of this, but this doesn't mean his actions in this episode have a special significance in regard to the armor. It could be as simple as wanting to play with his dad. Climbing on his back or getting inside his breastplate didn't serve a particular purpose that we know of.

he also has been confirmed to have the powers to wake up his father while going berserk like How schierke can

What he can do is actually quite different from Schierke's abilities. On both occasions he intervened, he did something Schierke couldn't have.

 

[Joe Chip]

Now, we don't know what Femto's incarnation process was supposed to be. Was a physical body necessary at all, or would have one arisen from nothing within the "egg"? We don't know. But what's clear is that the boy underwent a profound transformation. And that he's not just borrowing Femto's power.

This is a really great Interpretation and it gave me a lot to think about.
I personally always thought that these events were always supposed, everything was designed and orchestrated in such a way so that Femto uses the Boys body in order to walk freely on the World.
I always thought that the thing that wasnt supposed to be there was Casca, i believed she was supposed to die sometime along the way so if you take her out of the Picture, the Child doesnt have anywere to go the few times it takes over and Guts just becomes the Black Swordsman and wanders around the Lands.

 

[Odysseus]

Hi I'm new here.

From my perspective, and I'm sure this has been discussed before, the boy is the end result of all of Skull Knight's meddling in the affairs of the God Hand. Saving Guts and Casca allowed him to be born and to have a connection to both of his parents, Injuring the Egg Apostle caused it to take pity on the dying child and to take the child into itself, which ultimately resulted in the boy and Griffith sharing a body. This is what the Skull Knight was talking about when he said he staked everything on his ability to minorly influence those big predetermined events. Granted, I don't think this is specifically something he was planning, but it was the happy result of what he was doing. That's why I believe that the boy would have been instrumental in Griffith's defeat.

The only action he took that seemed unrelated was trying to kill Griffith on top of Ganishka with the sword of actuation, though that was something Griffith himself seemed to have planned.

 

[Aazealh]

I always thought that the thing that wasnt supposed to be there was Casca, i believed she was supposed to die sometime along the way so if you take her out of the Picture, the Child doesnt have anywere to go the few times it takes over and Guts just becomes the Black Swordsman and wanders around the Lands.

Well the boy cares for his father too. That being said, without Casca it's likely Guts would have just died in a swamp somewhere.

From my perspective, and I'm sure this has been discussed before, the boy is the end result of all of Skull Knight's meddling in the affairs of the God Hand. Saving Guts and Casca allowed him to be born and to have a connection to both of his parents, Injuring the Egg Apostle caused it to take pity on the dying child and to take the child into itself, which ultimately resulted in the boy and Griffith sharing a body.

Yes and no. The boy could only be born thanks to the Skull Knight's intervention, however the beherit apostle did not swallow it because he had been wounded. He did so because he found in his sad fate (a misshapen baby dying alone) a kinship that moved his heart. If you're curious, I wrote a post a while back about influences that I thought could be tied to elves or the Skull Knight.

This is what the Skull Knight was talking about when he said he staked everything on his ability to minorly influence those big predetermined events.

He doesn't say that he wants to influence these events in minor ways, not at all. What he means is that during these "junctions of times", not everything can be accounted for and that it's possible to derail the plan. Meaning to impact it in a way that matters. That's why he goes for broke each time: try to take down Void during the Eclipse, try to kill the beherit apostle before the Incarnation, try to slay Femto before he merges the worlds.

That's why I believe that the boy would have been instrumental in Griffith's defeat.

It's a given that the boy was going to be the key to Femto's defeat, but that's not something you can conclude based on the Skull Knight's actions. I mean, he told Guts to kill him right when he was born, remember? It's more a matter of logic and good sense with regards to the storytelling. We see as early as volume 22 that the boy can compel Griffith to action to protect his mom, and then he shows up repeatedly to be with his parents (and save their asses). His relationship to them is both the one thing that makes it possible for them to succeed as well as the worst possible dilemma you could imagine since killing one might mean killing the other.

 

[JamesS]

So given the boy was probably the way to take down Griffith, I really wonder how the hell they were going to deal with the other 4 godhand lol

 

[Odysseus]

Ah yes, getting corrected by Aazealh, the true initiation process of this forum lol.

Yes and no. The boy could only be born thanks to the Skull Knight's intervention, however the beherit apostle did not swallow it because he had been wounded. He did so because he found in his sad fate (a misshapen baby dying alone) a kinship that moved his heart.

I may have misinterpreted the scene as him taking pity on the baby because they are both dying. The dialogue is "This is... a body of flesh, but it's no ordinary human. It's dying, it's power spent. You're the same as me, then, misshapen babe. Let us die together."

Bolded part is what I latched onto here. I had interpreted that he was specifically dying because Skull Knight wounded him, since Skull Knigh says "With such wounds, he can't get far" but he might just be refering to his fate in the incarnation ceremony.

He doesn't say that he wants to influence these events in minor ways, not at all. What he means is that during these "junctions of times", not everything can be accounted for and that it's possible to derail the plan. Meaning to impact it in a way that matters. That's why he goes for broke each time: try to take down Void during the Eclipse, try to kill the beherit apostle before the Incarnation, try to slay Femto before he merges the worlds.

The specific line I was referencing, at least as translated by Dark Horse (YMMV), is "Though minute, singular details certainly can occur at a temporal nexus that even they can't predict... ...I, in turn, gamble everything on said occurrences."

The way I always took this line was that, though the big picture of events such as the eclipse or the incarnation ceremony couldn't be changed, small details can be fudged because the God Hand can't predict literally everything. This takes the form of things like Guts and Casca surviving (and Rickert too I suppose), and, regardless of if the Egg Apostle had done what he did for the reasons I thought or not, Skull Knight's intervention in the Eclipse still resulted in Griffith gaining a weakness.

Obviously he wants to make big changes, and he does take pot shots at Void and Griffith in these temporal junctions, but I think he knows he can't change things that significantly, especially given his noticing that he couldn't kill the Egg Apostle perhaps because it wasn't "yet time to kill him..." Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he's hinging on all those minute, singular details he's affected snowballing into greater changes as time goes on. Even discounting the boy, it's already true that this is the result of his actions, given all of the things that Guts has done since not dying.

It's a given that the boy was going to be the key to Femto's defeat, but that's not something you can conclude based on the Skull Knight's actions. I mean, he told Guts to kill him right when he was born, remember?

That's why I mentioned that I don't think this is some grand plan he has. He didn't intend on saving Guts and Casca as the primary motive for interfering with the Eclipse, nor did he value the life of the demon child afterwards. It just so happens that these circumstances have arisen from his actions. I think he was just fuckin shit up and seeing what happened, but maybe that's an unpopular opinion.

 

[Aazealh]

I had interpreted that he was specifically dying because Skull Knight wounded him, since Skull Knigh says "With such wounds, he can't get far" but he might just be refering to his fate in the incarnation ceremony.

Yeah, he's referring to the ceremony and the fact he'll die in the process.

Obviously he wants to make big changes, and he does take pot shots at Void and Griffith in these temporal junctions, but I think he knows he can't change things that significantly, especially given his noticing that he couldn't kill the Egg Apostle perhaps because it wasn't "yet time to kill him..." Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he's hinging on all those minute, singular details he's affected snowballing into greater changes as time goes on. Even discounting the boy, it's already true that this is the result of his actions, given all of the things that Guts has done since not dying.

I know which line you were referring to. But what the Skull Knight means isn't that his sword is sentient and decided it wasn't time for it to kill the beherit apostle, it's that it's not time for him to die yet and therefore he wasn't "allowed" to kill him. Basically, causality hadn't fully converged yet, so it was still too early for him to be able to throw a wrench in the plans. But he very much does attempt to score big each time. Unfortunately DH's translations aren't very helpful in cases like these, it's typically the sort of nuance they tend to mess up.

That's why I mentioned that I don't think this is some grand plan he has. [...] I think he was just fuckin shit up and seeing what happened, but maybe that's an unpopular opinion.

I think he deserves more credit than that. His plan is what he says: focus on the Junctions of Times to try and take down the God Hand or disrupt their plans. It just so happens that it's pretty damn hard. But though his big swings tend to miss, he still does manage to affect things and is smart enough to realize it. That's why he took the time to warn Guts a year before the Eclipse, bothered to save Rickert, rescued Guts and Casca at no small risk to himself while he could have simply bailed or tried to strike down Femto instead... And then helped Guts out a few more times.

 

[Odysseus]

I know which line you were referring to. But what the Skull Knight means isn't that his sword is sentient and decided it wasn't time for it to kill the beherit apostle, it's that it's not time for him to die yet and therefore he wasn't "allowed" to kill him. Basically, causality hadn't fully converged yet, so it was still too early for him to be able to throw a wrench in the plans. But he very much does attempt to score big each time. Unfortunately DH's translations aren't very helpful in cases like these, it's typically the sort of nuance they tend to mess up.

I guess his lack of major successes in the broader scheme of things gave me the wrong idea. Gotta wonder how things might have gone had Berserk continued, seeing as Griffith's arrival on Skellig was another big moment, and was probably the reason SK was there.

 

[Aazealh]

I guess his lack of major successes in the broader scheme of things gave me the wrong idea. Gotta wonder how things might have gone had Berserk continued, seeing as Griffith's arrival on Skellig was another big moment, and was probably the reason SK was there.

Yeah, though if he'd succeeded in those instances the story couldn't have progressed like it did. And I think it's a fair assumption that back in the day he and his allies managed to wipe out four out of the previous five. As for the future, while he wasn't going to kill Femto (that's Guts' prerogative), there's little doubt in my mind he would have managed to get his revenge on Void. And to answer @JamesS question, I do believe the others would have gotten what's coming to them eventually.

 

[JamesS]

Yeah, though if he'd succeeded in those instances the story couldn't have progressed like it did. And I think it's a fair assumption that back in the day he and his allies managed to wipe out four out of the previous five. As for the future, while he wasn't going to kill Femto (that's Guts' prerogative), there's little doubt in my mind he would have managed to get his revenge on Void. And to answer @JamesS question, I do believe the others would have gotten what's coming to them eventually.

You think the godhand would have been hunted down one by one by guts and skully after femtos defeat. Or they would try to eliminate them one by one before arriving to femto

 

[Aazealh]

You think the godhand would have been hunted down one by one by guts and skully after femtos defeat. Or they would try to eliminate them one by one before arriving to femto

I don't think they'd have been killed "one by one" in an overwrought manner, that doesn't fit the story. And I don't believe the Skull Knight would have "survived" the completion of Berserk's story.

 

[JamesS]

I don't think they'd have been killed "one by one" in an overwrought manner, that doesn't fit the story. And I don't believe the Skull Knight would have "survived" the completion of Berserk's story.

Your very right, I had my shonen thinking cap on for a second lol. Miura would have went with a solution to the godhand we would have never expected

 

[Odysseus]

I've always had trouble imagining what a true confrontation with a member of the God Hand would look like. They've been such enigmatic forces in the story for so long that just hitting them with a special sword or spell would just be anti-climactic.

 

[JamesS]

I've always had trouble imagining what a true confrontation with a member of the God Hand would look like. They've been such enigmatic forces in the story for so long that just hitting them with a special sword or spell would just be anti-climactic.

Same, I can't even fathom the idea of any of the godhand actually having to fight seriously

 

[Walter]

I don't think there would be a 1 on 1 fight with all the God Hand members. It wouldn't be appropriate, given the vast difference in power.

However, I think the key to defeating them in the end may have involved the Vortex of Souls. The God Hand are shaped by the power of the Vortex of Souls. This is explicitly shown in Ep 83, and when Wyald dies, we learn that it's also related to the evil power within apostles. I think it's possible that common source of power could have become their Achilles' heel, by the end. Disrupting it, setting the tortured souls free, would also allow for a pleasant ending, as Guts and Casca could escape the fate of the brand, as that too is related to the Vortex. It's all pretty nice and tidy, when you think of it from that perspective.

How could that happen? Well... Who can say? It's one thing to point out a potential weakness in the God Hand's power, and another to lay out the sequence of events that could have made that seismic shift a reality.

 

[Griffith]

I don't think they'd have been killed "one by one" in an overwrought manner, that doesn't fit the story.

Certainly not after Femto, and I think there was any number of permutations in play (as we like to discuss after podcasts sometimes, and as you probably do with Walter regularly =). Slan was already revealed to be vulnerable, Conrad and/or Ubik make sense as an escalation from that, and I just sort of imagine Void and Femto being the final bads hiding out in the Pandemonium throne room when it's clear Guts and Skully are comin.' Especially once it was revealed that Void's a multi-generational God Hand. God, that image was great! I wish we could know if he was already the leader or more like the "Femto" of his day, the would-be seal of the prophets if you will.

Your very right, I had my shonen thinking cap on for a second lol. Miura would have went with a solution to the godhand we would have never expected

I've always had trouble imagining what a true confrontation with a member of the God Hand would look like. They've been such enigmatic forces in the story for so long that just hitting them with a special sword or spell would just be anti-climactic.

Same, I can't even fathom the idea of any of the godhand actually having to fight seriously

I don't think there would be a 1 on 1 fight with all the God Hand members. It wouldn't be appropriate, given the vast difference in power.

Guys, we literally had a one on one two confrontation with a God Hand that Guts won by hitting them with a special sword, and that was before the Berserk's armor, the world's merging, which puts them on the same plane, and the revelation that four other God Hand presumably got smoked already. I wouldn't have ruled it out, is all.

However, I think the key to defeating them in the end may have involved the Vortex of Souls.

Disrupting it, setting the tortured souls free, would also allow for a pleasant ending, as Guts and Casca could escape the fate of the brand, as that too is related to the Vortex. It's all pretty nice and tidy, when you think of it from that perspective.

I've always liked the idea of dissolving the vortex in the end because it neatly saves Guts and Casca as you point out, but also all those souls plus the afterlife as a concept in Berserk can be more mysterious and hopeful, if not explicitly "a better place." It could also just be purified so the "place where we become one" isn't a hellscape of screaming humanity. I don't like it as a singular mechanism to sort of short circuit the God Hand though, that's what would come off as a bit convenient and unearned to me (though, of course Miura would be do it in a way that wasn't that way), and on a personal level I would have wanted to see Guts sort of break the illusion of their untouchable power and expose them as "monsters pretending to be angels." I don't think it's a coincidence that had become a theme, essentially since they met Flora and as we've been increasingly discovering the God Hand aren't the only great power out there. But however we each like to imagine it going down, it's odd debating it knowing there's no answer, or satisfaction, coming.

 

[JamesS]

But however we each like to imagine it going down, it's odd debating it knowing there's no answer, or satisfaction, coming.

I just like talking about berserk even if this specific topic is a little pointless to speak about lol.

 

[Guin]

So I mentioned this before, but i was corrected and shot down, and understandably so. this is just something I've been thinking of for a long time, but was unsure how it could work. but after the final episode it clicked for me (this is just my views). It relates to Griffith and his emotions. we all know Griffith shed his final tear at the eclipse when he sacrificed, and his heart became frozen. This means the Griffith he once was is no longer, he is now the Griffith he has always wanted to be in his human life, cold and empty, Femto will not feel any regret for fallen comrades he will never doubt his own actions or need validation, he is the perfect being he is a god hand he has transcended his humanity and has gone further than the human Griffith ever could. Any time we see Griffith after he has been incarnated or in the black swordsman arc he has maintained this coldness and lack of emotion. but of course he now shares the body with the demon child, Guts and Casca's son. the demon child has always wanted to protect Casca and Guts, considering what he is and how he was corrupted and all the suffering he has been put through, he is actually a pure being, resembling that of elves, he is to put it simply a child. this child shares a body with Femto a completely dark evil being, light and dark are shared within the same body, it almost reminds me of Griffiths duel forms Femto and the white falcon Griffith, these coud look like dark and light entities but as we know that's not the case he is always femto even when he is Griffith. during the ending of the last episode Griffith is shown to be crying, this tear is the boys tear, the boys feelings are fading away as Griffith takes control, Griffith experiences this like a dream the feelings fade away and are seemingly forgotten when he fully awakens. these fleeting emotions experienced after reverting back into femto has to have happened before, it actually makes me wonder about episode 358 because in that episode he says something like" this night.. yet again" and he transforms, maybe there could be a double meaning there, he's saying again i will fall into a deep dream and become him again, and maybe he is thinking yet again i will feel those warm feelings.

At the hill of swords Griffith wanted to confirm to himself if he still feels something towards Guts, and he was right he didnt feel anything, but in that moment we also get the reveal of the boy and him sharing the body, i feel this wasn't a coincidence having these moments so close, he reaffirmed his belief that his heart was indeed frozen, but the boy had yet to really take over his body yet, i think it was foreshadowing something that the boy would maybe thaw out his frozen heart little by little. to get back to the final episode i know those are not Griffiths feelings but Griffith for a fleeting moment during all the times the boy has transformed is feeling emotions from that child, he shares his body with a pure heart, ive always thought this could lead to some amazing things in Griffiths final moments this can be the key to him finally regaining a semblance of himself again in the end, as Griffith he realises what he has done and what his dream and his ambitions has lead to, this is one way for Griffith to have an emotional death, i see in this moment a single tear of blood in Guts dead eye, i dont think guts will actually be emotional in that moment but his eye will cry blood, a final tear of blood for his friend which i would think would be really fitting because it resembles both emotion and pain. many people say no Griffith will remain cold and evil until the end and that he will remain a monster, Griffith has done horrible things, and yes he probably doesnt deserve to be redeemed that's not what i really want, but i want Griffith for one moment, a fleeting moment if you will were he remembers his old feelings and cries as griffith not as the boy.