Game of Thrones TV [spoilers]

Griffith

My posts are better.
SuperVegetto said:
Spoilers ahead (why are you here if you haven't watched :schierke: )
This was how I felt spoiler tagging in the Twin Peaks thread. :ganishka:

SuperVegetto said:
Killing Littlefinger wasn't just horribly done, he shouldn't have died. Yes, he became redundant but it's completely the writers' fault for not being able to use the best character in the series well. Instead, he got fooled by a dumbass and her overpowered Mary Sue sister. This show's gotten pretty bad story-wise.
We've got a Littlefinger fan here! But yeah, it does feel like they just didn't know how to utilize him and that Littlefinger should have had much greater significance concerning the dangerous nature of man's ambition, particularly a "common" man that wants more (basically the flip side to Jon Snow). He didn't exactly wind up being "the most dangerous man in Westeros." Anyway, so apparently that room scene with the Stark sisters wasn't supposed to be so illogically misleading:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/game-of-thrones-cut-a-scene-that-wouldve-explained-that-1798622658

I would have preferred this despite how shitty it is for Arya's character (though I also don't care or think it required that she and her sister be constant role models of female empowerment or something) because at least it explains those inexplicable scenes, and Bran's absence, and shows the strength of the Stark kids when they come together (that almost passes for a theme here). Basically it makes the story arc go from a zero to at least having some tangible form. Also lame about Littlefinger's demise and how everything has been wrapped up in a nice little package is it pretty much elimates all conflict save the Epic Good Vs. Evil battle we know Good will win. At least some unexpected conflict in the North, the support of which Jon took for granted, would create some drama. Now the only drama after Jon and Dany roll in on a red carpet is if/when Bran & Sam tell Jon he's fucking his aunt (I bet they tell him and he doesn't tell Dany but gets all weird and when she finds out and that he knew it becomes a big shitty rom com 3rd act misunderstanding =).

SuperVegetto said:
Just a few days ago Griffith predicted they'd use Thormund to be the lone survivor to tell them about the Walkers breaching the Wall. Most things in this series are that predictable
Yep, but to be fair I predict tons of shit that never happens too, but it's a low risk practice, especially for stuff next season (see above), when nobody will remember how wrong I was anyway. :griffnotevil:

But yeah, it's all pretty pat and predictable, but the latter isn't necessarily a bad thing. Breaking Bad, and Berserk for that matter, are also highly predictable, but because the characters and arcs are so meticulously setup and supported towards a specific logical conclusion that a thoughtful viewer will naturally be able to anticpate where the storteller is going. Wheras these guys are admittedly writing the story backwards coming up with big, predictable payoffs and then trying to reverse engineer the plot to get there so it all comes out thin and contrived as hell. These guys have always been paint by numbers in their approach, and that was still impressive when they were painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, but now it's more like a landscape or bowl of fruit.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Griffith said:
Yep, but to be fair I predict tons of shit that never happens too, but it's a low risk practice, especially for stuff next season (see above), when nobody will remember how wrong I was anyway. :griffnotevil:
I live in the north, I'll remember. (Get it? ) Ahem, anyway, to answer your question to my previous post about my disliking the big reveal about Jon. I just think they should have left him a bastard. I felt the marrying Lyanna officialy part just to make Jon a real Targaryan and not a high bastard plain suck. Even more when you learn that his " real name" is Aegon Targaryan hinting that the babe that was killed all these years ago was not born from Elia Martell but from Lyanna. Of course this pisses me oof because I read the books and it's just a whole messy ployt fused and twisted together. Now I'm to blame for my own disapointment. I should have seen it coming.

If they wanted to put that plot into the story, they should have done it right and have the real Aegon in the show. But then again, they would have mess it up anyway.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
jackson_hurley said:
I live in the north, I'll remember. (Get it? )


Ahem, anyway, to answer your question to my previous post about my disliking the big reveal about Jon. I just think they should have left him a bastard. I felt the marrying Lyanna officialy part just to make Jon a real Targaryan and not a high bastard plain suck.
Agreed, he should have had the pedigree but not the papers, as before. That way he embodies the unification of the north and south as well the dissolution of the classes. Oh well, I guess he's Prince Charming, after all!

Even more when you learn that his " real name" is Aegon Targaryan hinting that the babe that was killed all these years ago was not born from Elia Martell but from Lyanna. Of course this pisses me oof because I read the books and it's just a whole messy ployt fused and twisted together. Now I'm to blame for my own disapointment. I should have seen it coming.

If they wanted to put that plot into the story, they should have done it right and have the real Aegon in the show. But then again, they would have mess it up anyway.
I'm glad you bring this up because I've not seen the implications of this discussed beyond, "Hey Rhaegar already had a kid named Aegon that's funny lol" Well, as you point out, it's probably not just a coincidence or stupid bout of unoriginality (at least on Rhaegar's part)! Does this mean the Aegon in the books is indeed illegitimate, thus why they cut him? Does it mean Jon was always the real Aegon and the one killed in King's Landing a fake in any case? Did Lyanna learn the fate of the original baby Aegon and named Rhaegar's next son the same in accordance with his desire to have an heir by this name? Are they combining multiple plots from the books into one streamlined azor ahai plot for TV (could Aegon in the books be the legit azor ahai and they cut him =)? How badly does this fuck up the timeline of events that characters died/were born/named in? If it doesn't originate from GRRM somehow and the showrunners chose the name are they actually dumb and/or lazy enough to just use that one without any of these implications in mind? Anyway, I guess it worked since I've seen half a dozen worthless think pieces that somehow bring up the significance of the name without considering any of this.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Book spoilers in case you haven't read them.

Well actually in the books Jon and Aegon are both two different characters. One's still at the Wall and the other has started taking over some castles with Jon Connington AND the golden company. And some random baby got to take the place of "Aegon" when they showed them to Robert. So since they never adapted that plot they just decided to make Jon the "real" Aegon, thus making a legitimate Targaryen with the secret mariage. As they decided to throw Euron way later in the story (when he should have died around the time Robb and Joffrey died, due to the leeches thing with Melisandre) and omitting the great character of Victarion. I could go on but I think we already where that leads.

And I don't think the Aegon in the books is illegitimate considering Connington's point of view. And this part was the big reveal of the fifth book.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
You mean Balon, not Euron, right, because I thought he's still alive and very much looking like the big bad (how crazy would it be if they screw up Azor Ahai AND the Night King? =)

Anyway, I know Aegon's a separate character in the books, I just thought there was some question to his legitimacy and them cutting/combining him with Jon at least suggests he's not supposed to amount to much in the end. Of course, if he was going to die, there'd be no need to combine a legitimate Targaryen plot into Jon's character unless he's supposed to be legitimate in the books too. But I'm also totally willing to believe they just fucked up and cut out an important claimant to throne/end game character so they half-assed grafted him onto Jon because nothing makes sense anymore. If only they had, say, 7 more hours to estabish such a character! But they were too lazy to even put in the work required to properly break the story they already established. That's what the 7/6 episodes really signifies: the bare minimum.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Griffith said:
You mean Balon, not Euron, right, because I thought he's still alive and very much looking like the big bad (how crazy would it be if they screw up Azor Ahai AND the Night King? =)
Yes, yes I meant Balon. (My bad, but they still introduced him way later in the series vs the book) I still prefer his personnality in the book though.

Griffith said:
Anyway, I know Aegon's a separate character in the books, I just thought there was some question to his legitimacy and them cutting/combining him with Jon at least suggests he's not supposed to amount to much in the end. Of course, if he was going to die, there'd be no need to combine a legitimate Targaryen plot into Jon's character unless he's supposed to be legitimate in the books too. But I'm also totally willing to believe they just fucked up and cut out an important claimant to throne/end game character so they half-assed grafted him onto Jon because nothing makes sense anymore. If only they had, say, 7 more hours to estabish such a character! But they were too lazy to even put in the work required to properly break the story they already established. That's what the 7/6 episodes really signifies: the bare minimum.
Thing is, in the book we still "don't know" that Jon has Targaryen blood (wich in my opinion is the only thing that matters). And learning that the babe was never killed and is doing well and all was the big punch line. Now it doesn't mean that Aegon his gonna be the one sitting on the throne in the end though. I like the idea of a bastard rising anyway, but the lther thing is we still don't know if Martin is gonna revive Jon or keep him dead or switch him in Ghost as the prologue for book 5 was specifically talking about that kind of possibilty.

It be something though to learn that the Aegon in the book is just a ploy to take the throne for then reveal that it was Jon the real deal and put him on the throne, but I doubt that. They would not have gone into exile in Essos and leave the real one in a dangerous spot without having anyone knowing it. It would have been to risky for them to lose him. I guess we'll know in a few years when the Winds of winter will be out. ( saying years here because we know fuck all when it's gonna be out)

I just think they fused that plot together in the tv series just because Jon is a big character and they wanted to make him more then a bastard when he was already more than a regular bastard. I was well satisfied with just knowing he was a Starkgaryen... :ganishka:

And I pretty sure they kept that secret because Ned did not want his nephew to die since Robert was in a frenzy of killing all the Targaryen he could get his hands on. So makes sense to make him think that Jon was his own bastard son instead of Lyanna. It would have ended in a mess if he was to learn that.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
jackson_hurley said:
Yes, yes I meant Balon. (My bad, but they still introduced him way later in the series vs the book) I still prefer his personnality in the book though.
Well, they sure didn't do much with him on the show other than make him a stupid jerk that Theon listens to because... family? I swear, if I had Ned Stark as a father figure my whole life I wouldn't be looking to this guy to fill his shoes, "Did you pay the iron price for that!?" "You mean being a belligerent loser nobody can trust or like? No, in fact I did NOT."
BTW, Theon's big moment of triumph sure was stupid and reductive, even for these guys (the ADVANTAGE of having no cock n' balls, huzzah!), and would have been better coming at just about any other opportunity he had to rise to the occasion. Frankly, I thought and was hoping he'd just be beaten to death there, impotently trying to help his sister but just being unable. THAT would have been a fitting end, but they went the predictable yet improbable route again. Also, those guys were basically going to go rape, pillage and live the good life but decide instead to basically march to their certain death over the result of a street fight? No wonder they're the worst culture in Westeros.

jackson_hurley said:
Thing is, in the book we still "don't know" that Jon has Targaryen blood (wich in my opinion is the only thing that matters). And learning that the babe was never killed and is doing well and all was the big punch line. Now it doesn't mean that Aegon his gonna be the one sitting on the throne in the end though. I like the idea of a bastard rising anyway, but the lther thing is we still don't know if Martin is gonna revive Jon or keep him dead or switch him in Ghost as the prologue for book 5 was specifically talking about that kind of possibilty.

It be something though to learn that the Aegon in the book is just a ploy to take the throne for then reveal that it was Jon the real deal and put him on the throne, but I doubt that. They would not have gone into exile in Essos and leave the real one in a dangerous spot without having anyone knowing it. It would have been to risky for them to lose him. I guess we'll know in a few years when the Winds of winter will be out. ( saying years here because we know fuck all when it's gonna be out)
That all makes sense, though normally logic would dictate that if Aegon were really going to be significant he'd be included in the show, but given the decision making of the showrunners recently it's hard to take their opinion at face value. I also feel like Martin might just change up a bunch of shit now out of spite. "Turns out Jon Snow IS dead, they burned his body, and R+L=FU!" :daiba:

jackson_hurley said:
I just think they fused that plot together in the tv series just because Jon is a big character and they wanted to make him more then a bastard when he was already more than a regular bastard. I was well satisfied with just knowing he was a Starkgaryen... :ganishka:
Yeah, as we've said, it is a bit strange that they're basically stripping Jon of his noble everyman status, one who rose by his own deeds, and likely turning him instead into a reluctant prince of destiny. It just completely changes the meaning of "the cream rising to the top" where he's concerned.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
This is pretty much why I said it was a fan serviced season. Maybe I had the wrong choices of words but it feels to me that they are doing (the showrunners) what they would like to see in the books, which imo would suck if it turns out to be that in the end (which probably wont be the case considering the enormous change in books.) Like the ridiculous part of the Iron bank siding with Cercei, which makes no fucking sense considering they are pissed off against the Lannister for the debt they owe them...

I just have the feeling that season 8 will just ruin my experience and I'll have to put asside my purist side again to be able to somewhat enjoy this series finale.

But like you said , I would not be surprised if Martin is gonna do last minute change to his book. Anyway he said himself if I remember correctly that a lot of stuff would not play out the same way that the show. (A little bit reassuring to be honest).
 
jackson_hurley said:
it was a fan serviced season.
There's been prevalent fan service since Season 4, and it completely swallowed the show after it. Take any Cersei scene in Season 2 and put it next to any scene of hers after Season 4. The writing has been terrible and fine, talented actors have been wasted. There's been generally much less nuance, finesse, message, and art after 4, which is a very bad thing considering the show as a whole has squandered the universe it has been given, and crafted what is now its long-running recurring theme of: life is horrible and cruel, there is no purpose, and there is no God (and if there is a god, he hates everyone). It hasn't just mistreated its source material (with characters missing and and plot points never fitted in); it has utterly defiled the source material.

Here's just a couple things that did not sit well with me:
Brienne getting put into a situation in which she was able to find Stannis and kill him
(in Season 5),
Ramseys getting put into a situation where he is imprisoned and killed by his dogs while Sansa watches
(in Season 6); it all happened too perfectly for me to remain immersed; they were plot points that were too clean that yielded absolutely nothing for the narrative. We should gain no satisfaction from conventional resolutions, but find it in unexpected places through interesting means.

Edit: I should have given an example as to what I meant by satisfaction from unexpected places. Joffrey being killed by Olenna when it was Robb Stark's revenge to take. It was completely unpredictable and out of place for the narrative. But it made complete sense when it was explained and it didn't feed into the idea of this fan service perfect justice/revenge plot.

jackson_hurley said:
I just have the feeling that season 8 will just ruin my experience and I'll have to put asside my purist side again to be able to somewhat enjoy this series finale.
I've forced myself to watch the show because I'd rather watch plot points unfold on TV than discover spoilers on the internet [or from yappy friends] about said plot points. We're really getting forced into this predicament.

I don't see any other viable option they could have went with. Putting the show on hiatus until they gain the source material would have been my wish, but with GoT being their golden goose, they would have milked the show dry until we were down to the marrow. And I think it's the showrunners who want to end it at Season 8. If it were up to HBO, we'd probably be getting more seasons than we could stomach.

jackson_hurley said:
But like you said , I would not be surprised if Martin is gonna do last minute change to his book. Anyway he said himself if I remember correctly that a lot of stuff would not play out the same way that the show. (A little bit reassuring to be honest).
I don't think George is going to change a single thing about the book. He said that some people have pieced together things in the books (many have theories, but only few have gotten it spot on) and he's said something along the lines of not changing the book 'just because someone has figured it out'.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I agree the show went downhill after it's season 4 peak (and now without a luxurious safety net of source material to fall back on as in the early seasons), but I don't think the problem is that there's too much fan service or that it's not being deferential enough to the source material, critiques that lie heavily on the perceptions of fans, it's just that the show hasn't been good in and of itself since it got boring in 5, crazy in 6, and frantic in in 7. It's not going to be the same as the books, and I don't put the books on a pedestal anyway (they omitted something from the book: oh now it can't be a good!), it's that the show stopped following it's own internal logic and has suffered accordingly. Make it completely different from the books for all I care, but make it good, and not so pat, with every good guy getting their triumphant revenge and every villain their just deserts, as you say.
 
Anybody watching the last season? I thought last night’s episode did a good job of setting up the pieces for what’s to come. There were some parts that I didn’t like all that much
mostly the parts with Sansa
, but all in all it was good going back to that world.

Regarding the season as a whole, to be honest I don’t have very high expectations for the conclusion of the story, but I’ll be a happy camper if we get one or two good episodes this time around (which I guess would be par for the course for the show)
 
I watched the episode this past Sunday without waiting a day because half of the office was going to discuss it the next day. I found most of the reunions to be kind of sloppy where it didn't pack an emotional punch. Overall, I get that they were trying to add a lot within 1 episode and that's a limitation of the season for being a short season. Oh well ... I'm more curious about what we saw in the last minute of the episode and what's to come from that.

By the way, nice avatar m.
 
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I watched the episode this past Sunday without waiting a day because half of the office was going to discuss it the next day. I found most of the reunions to be kind of sloppy where it didn't pack an emotional punch. Overall, I get that they were trying to add a lot within 1 episode and that's a limitation of the season for being a short season. Oh well ... I'm more curious about what we saw in the last minute of the episode and what's to come from that.
I also watched as soon as I could for the same reason. In the end half the office hadn’t watched it so nobody really talked about it because spoilers.

Yeah, this being a short season can’t possibly be beneficial for the story in any way. I just hope they won’t just waste the little time they had.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I thought it was one of the better, more character-driven, episodes of the last couple seasons, almost by default; there were so many meaningful reunions from over the past eight years that the usual writing deficiencies for expediency's sake, and they were there, couldn't completely sink them.

Looking forward to everyone making the absolute wrong decisions, especially Jon, who I imagine won't change course now except to give Dany the cold shoulder without explanation and alienate her. =)

Cersei is the only one making sense, if any of the fighters for humanity win, they'll depose and kill her next, so why would she help them live today only to die tomorrow? Better to sit it out and hope the dragons and ice zombies all kill each other and everyone else involved. At least then she has a chance.
 
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The new episode made me cautiously optimistic. I really, really dislike that the show has moved from being about palace intrigue and political maneuvering and into a more archetypal fantasy direction, but this episode started to calm those fears slightly. The biggest positive was the little suggestion that Jon and Dany might fall out with one another. It reassured me that D&D maybe possibly aren't entirely gonna just sell us an Aragorn story. Really hoping that the universe, despite the new fantastical elements, really gets back to the core animating spirit of the earlier seasons - play the game of thrones, or get played.

Honestly, I think the main thing bumming me out now is that last season saw two of the best players in the game (Olenna Tyrell and Petyr Baelish) sort of scooted off-screen in hasty ways while making the plot armor on some of the complete nincompoops of the series bulletproof. Arya in particular should absolutely not be alive, but she was necessary to give the audience some things to cheer for with her Westerosi murder spree so she got off. I think the accelerated pace has made it where some of the clearer minds in the series like Sansa haven't been given enough screen time to earn their current success. One line about learning from Littlefinger does not a brilliant tactician make, especially since her only strong move so far was believing in the power of family and outsmarting the most poorly written and confusing Baelish we've seen yet. Echoing Griffith, I definitely think Cersei is the only one still playing by early season rules, and I don't think the show has done enough to smooth the transition from that kind of story to the very expensive Helm's Deep remake we're gonna be stuck on for at least a couple of our remaining five episodes. Hoping that someone from among the Davos, Tyrion, and Varys trio can get shaken up so we don't just have some of the best characters turn into a univocal ensemble cast. And I hope like I feel like many others do that the business with the Night Walkers is over and done sooner rather than later.

But there were some highlights. I think Euron makes for a great baddie, though I hope he gets fleshed out a bit and not made into a painfully obvious strongman character who just dies on a battlefield. If I suspend my disbelief that half of them deserve to be next to Robb and Ned in the ground for how poorly they've maneuvered, the Stark reunions were sweet. Bran being a bit less of a robot this time around is making me interested in that character again, and that last interaction with Jaime makes me excited to see how much human vs. astral motivations move him in the run-up to the end. And saving the best for last, Sam, a character I've found irritating for seven seasons, delivered the biggest emotional sucker-punch I've gotten from the show in a long while.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
A lot of people liked this episode, but I actually thought it was a worse, more hamfisted, version of the last one. What I liked about it was confined to more of Arya and the Hound professing their affection through shit talking and Jon moving forward the overarching plot in a more abrupt and awkward way than I even imagined, "Btw, big fight's starting, but you should know I'm actually your most natural political enemy, ok lets gooooo!"

I also don't think they ever established that everyone understands and truly accepts Bran's powers and role, even his family that still treats him like their brother, though at least it's believable they'd accept him anyway. Like, are most of the characters just humoring the crippled kid when he says crazy shit like, "I'm humanity's memory?"

And, no matter what, Bran, the dragons, the wolves, etc will all seemingly be criminally underused. Hey Bran, what's your plan to stop the Night King? "Well, I'm like some time lord that could warg into his mind back when he was a man and break his brain... or you could use me like a medieval hostage and put me in front of that tree with a dragon hiding behind it to blast him when he comes to get me, Home Alone-style!" Same with all the talk of holding the dragons back so as to not scare the Night King off... why not just burn as many walkers as possible to draw him out and protect their people? We saw that in a big battle those things are basically like jets dropping napalm. They should theoretically be able to take them all out easily except for the other dragon, which again, you want to draw out along with the Night King. Instead the plan is basically to forfeit everybody's life until the Night King hopefully shows up. Not a great plan.

Speaking of which, climatic Avengers, Thrones, and new Berserk all in the same weekend? Not bad. =)
 
I feel like this episode and the last one are pretty complementary but frustrating. I agree, Griffith, that this one was much more hamfisted and rushed the plot along. While there were plenty of dumb character interactions, I felt that the ones they nailed were really high water marks, and there were more of them this time. The drinking crew and the Nights Watch reunion were really lovely, in particular. But yeah, alongside that, you get the writers insistently foreshadowing zombie Starks by going on and on about how safe the crypts are whenever anyone's talking to a woman or child. And the timing of Jon's disclosure was certainly incredibly silly. I say this is complementary to the last episode because the last one had probably the right level of lethargy to it to make room for some good character interactions but then squandered it by basically having the two Sam scenes be the only ones to knock it out of the park. It also was very quip-heavy, which irritates me and feels like it cheapens the show. So in short, feel that both are mediocre in different ways, but enjoyed watching this one more.

While I certainly agree that the credulity of the random folks around Winterfell strains suspension of disbelief, I think there's a fair enough built-in explanation that these are people who are now aware they live in a world where a fire zombie Jesus is leading them into war with an army of ice zombies. What's one weirdo psychic on top of all that? :ganishka:

As far as the dragons being held back, I do wish that there had been some discussion of that. I'd completely buy it if they had given us a scene of Dany being openly rattled about the death of her child to the Ice King and reluctance to just send them out blazing right off the bat. But it's always irritating when you have to fill in character motivations for yourself, especially when that would have been a quick couple of lines to add to the war room meeting. Kind of just another example of why if they were gonna spend $300 trillion and a couple years making this last season, they could have padded out the episodes a bit more. Like, seriously? We got two 54 minute episodes of truncated character interactions, arguably one of the cheapest things to put together, so that we can have 80 minutes of CGI clusterfuck battle scenes for next episode?

Hoping that we really get past the Ice Walkers in Episode 3, or I worry how they're gonna manage to stick a landing to this series. This kinda fits into the holding the dragons back thing, too - you know that those dragons are gonna be what finally wins the battle because the past three seasons have essentially declared that Westerosi war strategy is "Rohan will answer" since the fucking Battle of the Bastards. It seems like D&D are really relying on the audience having a stake in the future of the characters on the battlefield who are inevitably gonna die before that, but again, they squandered the opportunity to really get us invested in these characters these last two episodes. Looking forward to being surprised, though, if they manage it.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I worry they'll kill/cripple the dragons and basically have them win the unwinnable fight in an even more unbelievable way. They didn't even highlight the dragons as their one, best chance, but instead some cut the head off the snake strategy. Not to mention the wall probably could have held if they didn't gift old Nighty a dragon anyway. =)

In any case, I'm expecting some really questionable answers as to how they'll prevail, and am mainly interested in seeing how they dovetail or snowball this into the final confrontation in the capital and who's involved. My guess for maximum satisfaction is the Night King has to die and the throne won simultaneously, otherwise saving humankind from the literal army of death is an odd opening act to battling Cercei's goons for who sits at the head of the table in the end.
 
In any case, I'm expecting some really questionable answers as to how they'll prevail, and am mainly interested in seeing how they dovetail or snowball this into the final confrontation in the capital and who's involved. My guess for maximum satisfaction is the Night King has to die and the throne won simultaneously, otherwise saving humankind from the literal army of death is an odd opening act to battling Cercei's goons for who sits at the head of the table in the end.
I'm actually hoping that NK is the latest subverted fantasy trope and that the battle is won but that that doesn't mean as much as the realm actually being led well. I'd be most satisfied with a one-two punch of NK and Cersei being finished up (in whatever order) and then the reality of having an unopposed bloodthirsty Queen Daenerys on the throne becoming unbearable. But yeah I'm sure the reality is that a series of big expensive battles is how they're going to end this show.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
I'm actually hoping that NK is the latest subverted fantasy trope and that the battle is won but that that doesn't mean as much as the realm actually being led well. I'd be most satisfied with a one-two punch of NK and Cersei being finished up (in whatever order)
Part of me couldn't forgive that, even though you're right and the walker stuff is just a trope that's always been a total afterthought behind the horserace politics over the Throne, so fitting if that's how it ended up.

then the reality of having an unopposed bloodthirsty Queen Daenerys on the throne becoming unbearable. But yeah I'm sure the reality is that a series of big expensive battles is how they're going to end this show.
Her's and Jon's plots, dual protagonists essentially, makes the most sense if one is actually the antagonist, which means they'll do some unsatisfying or arbitrary half measure, or one will die heroically so the other can Throne without conflict. I think her echoing her father would be appropriate because she IS just arbitrarily power mad and burns people for questioning her rule, while Jon has that cooling Stark influence to balance him out, though I'd even accept him going dark now that he's no longer just Noble Ned 2.0 but rightful King of the World. That could be a lot to digest for a guy that got the bastard treatment his whole life. Maybe Dany has been showing great restraint not exercising her power over dragons to burn anyone that looks at her cockeyed.
 
Last night's episode had some highs but more lows, expected/ unexpected I guess? I cannot understand a lot of choices writers have made, in terms of execution or how they went about an idea and showing it happen. It's just jarring to think of why or how (spoilers ahead) -

- Sam surviving the war ... come on showrunners, this made zero sense considering his battle skill and the amount of help he received which was almost none after the death of poor Edd.

- Jon's choices ... I get that it's a constant meme that he doesn't know anything but this's a bit ridiculous. I don't understand his place in the prophecy anymore or how he links to any of it. Was his purpose just to reunite the folks to come together for this battle? He died for a cause, came back to reunite part of the kingdoms for a very big imminent threat and spent a lot of time losing the fight with a dragon and a legendary sword ... only for Arya who'd never seen the Night King to be the one dealing the final blow.

- I wasn't against Arya being the one to kill the Night King ... it didn't feel justified given her path vs Jon's path and the interaction/ connection Jon's had with the Night King in the past. The Night King's death was underwhelming, quick and reminded me of that headlining botched main event finale at WWE Wrestlemania 2019.

- I was surprised they've now left 3 episodes to deal with Cersei and took 1 episode to deal with the Night King and the threat that was built up from season 1.

- Night King and Bran gave one another a lot of stares ... no dialog and to see the Night King die after was a bit frustrating to watch.

- Jorah coming to save Dany ... I didn't see that coming because how the hell did he even get to her?! He did die a heroic death, reminded me of Judeau.
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
Last night's episode had some highs but more lows, expected/ unexpected I guess? I cannot understand a lot of choices writers have made, in terms of execution or how they went about an idea and showing it happen. It's just jarring to think of why or how (spoilers ahead) -

- Sam surviving the war ... come on showrunners, this made zero sense considering his battle skill and the amount of help he received which was almost none after the death of poor Edd.

- Jon's choices ... I get that it's a constant meme that he doesn't know anything but this's a bit ridiculous. I don't understand his place in the prophecy anymore or how he links to any of it. Was his purpose just to reunite the folks to come together for this battle? He died for a cause, came back to reunite part of the kingdoms for a very big imminent threat and spent a lot of time losing the fight with a dragon and a legendary sword ... only for Arya who'd never seen the Night King to be the one dealing the final blow.

- I wasn't against Arya being the one to kill the Night King ... it didn't feel justified given her path vs Jon's path and the interaction/ connection Jon's had with the Night King in the past. The Night King's death was underwhelming, quick and reminded me of that headlining botched main event finale at WWE Wrestlemania 2019.

- I was surprised they've now left 3 episodes to deal with Cersei and took 1 episode to deal with the Night King and the threat that was built up from season 1.

- Night King and Bran gave one another a lot of stares ... no dialog and to see the Night King die after was a bit frustrating to watch.

- Jorah coming to save Dany ... I didn't see that coming because how the hell did he even get to her?! He did die a heroic death, reminded me of Judeau.
Yeah I was disappointed a lot by this episode. especially for something that was supposed to be big and all important... Oh well, I'm not that surprise considering this show started to go mainly downhill from s4. :shrug:
 

Kompozinaut

Grail Serpico!
This Nerdist article sums up my feeling pretty well. It's a short read, major quote below:

"But if you have invested in the history and lore behind the story, it was an anti-climactic end that didn't invert fantasy tropes in classic George R.R. Martin style. For all of the talk about the Prince That Was Promised, the secret that was Jon's birth, and Bran's knowledge of the past, none of that mattered in actually defeating the Night King. It didn't matter Jon was the son of ice and fire. All of Bran's powers and memories of the past weren't even relevant, as he sat there useless all night. The mere fact he was the Three-Eyed Raven was all that mattered, not his abilities. Forget a payoff to those arcs going back thousands of years; Arya was able to run by all of the White Walkers to kill a monster who had survived for thousands of years, all with a quick stab to the stomach. Arya killing the Night King was amazing to behold, but it felt somewhat hollow without payoff to the story's history."

I'm more than a little upset that Cersei will never have to deal with the undead in any capacity now. I'm bothered that Cersei has been saying "pish-posh" to the White Walker threat for years, and now is absolved of her inaction and complacency. "See guys? I told you it wasn't that big of a deal..." The comeuppance just aren't going to satisfy me at this point, I don't think.
 
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