Griffith's reincarnated body

Hello everyone.

Even though I'm new to this forum I thought I'd share some of my thoughts. English isn't my native language, but I hope you'll bear with me.
As we all know Griffith shares his current form with the Demon Baby, and this predicament results in him not having full control over it (most notable example being that he saved Casca from the falling rocks). In episode 179, „Beast Swordsman vs Black Swordsman", he remarks how, even though his blood should have frozen a long time ago, he can still feel something stirring inside him when he watches Guts fight Zodd. Upon re-reading the official release from my country, I noticed that the choice of words might hint at the intentionality of choosing the Baby as his vessel. (God I hope I worded that right:shrug:)
The official Polish release reads as follows: „Może to uczucia tego dziecka? Tego, które stało się cześcią przeznaczonego dla mnie naczynia?" Which translates to: „Perhaps those are the feelings of this baby? The one that became a part of my destined vessel?"
Now, I'm probably grasping at straws, but wouldn't that mean the infant was not essential to Griffith's rebirth, and that the Egg-shaped Apostle decided to monch the baby on just a whim, without any reason aside from pity? And wouldn't that establish it as an unintended, unforeseen flaw in the design of Griffith's new body?
What puts me off is the fact that there isn't much, if anything at all, that would further justify this, as in the Polish release Griffith's word choice makes it sound like he is unsure of it himself. The english release (at least the one I managed to find), presents him as being fairly certain: „These feelings must belong to that infant that fused into my vessel."
If it isn't a problem, could someone clarify my doubts, possibly by directly translating the official japanese quote?
 
You are right on that, the baby was not required for Griffith to take on flesh. Griffith himself said that the demon child fused into his vessel, his vessel being the egg apostle. The egg apostles own flesh would have been enough, but like you said he swallowed the demon child out of pity.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
You are right on that, the baby was not required for Griffith to take on flesh. Griffith himself said that the demon child fused into his vessel, his vessel being the egg apostle. The egg apostles own flesh would have been enough, but like you said he swallowed the demon child out of pity.
This is not set in stone, and that wording alone isn't conclusive. What we see on the page contradicts that interpretation as well. The baby transforms into Griffith, making it seem it was intended to be there. What wasn't intended by Griffith's account was for its feelings to remain.
 
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This is not set in stone, and that wording alone isn't convincing. The fact that we see the baby transform into Griffith makes it seem it was intended to be there. What wasn't intended was for its feelings to remain.
The wording by Griffith is enough for me to be convinced by it. Generally the idea of the God Hand relying on the egg apostle swallowing the demon child out of pity seems way less believable than it happening coincidentally as a result of Guts and Casca surviving a meant death in the first place.

The reason why i say this is due to the amount of planning and details put into making the incarnation ceremony. We have all the basic stuff with Conrad and Slan doing their thing, but the egg apostles form is what makes me have no doubts about him always being meant to be the vessel for Griffith. His sole purpose of creation was for that to be the case. Especially the brand he got, making it possible for the monsters to manifest and swallow up the thousands of citizens. Everything that could have been planned and manipulated got influenced by the God Hand, but the demon child itself is a product of a birth that should not have happened in the first place.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I agree with you in principle that thematically it all hooks up for the boy's incorporation to have been a "temporal junction point" that created this current, compromised scenario for Femto. But instead, it's less conclusive, because there are other things that make the boy's incorporation seem key — like the actual visuals we get of the boy transforming (three pages of it, eps 165, 171 and 173).





We don't see the boy dissolve within the beherit and then a different body manifest there. What we see is the boy changing into Griffith's form. Femto needed a body of flesh. That's exactly what enters the mouth of the beherit-apostle exactly when it was required, and we see it being shaped into Griffith. That is perfect, and therefore reeks of causality, regardless of how crazy and coincidental it sounds.

Now, you can spin this in a completely different direction, and it's equally interesting, just less compelling based on the evidence we have. What the hell are the odds of this particular child, created as a direct result of Femto's rape of Casca, being at the exact right place, at the exact right time, on the verge of death, to serve as the host for Femto, ultimately becoming a key weakness for him? Pretty mysterious, isn't it? If it wasn't causality, then what do you call that? Something else shaping events?

Compared with that, which is pretty "out there," I prefer Occam's Razor. I think the boy was intended to be there, but his feelings were supposed to have been eradicated or utterly suppressed by Femto's incarnation. Based on Femto's reaction on the Hill of Swords, that's what went awry. We don't see Femto reflect on anything being amiss until the boy's feelings surface. This once-in-1000-years ceremony resulted in something unpredictable for even the God Hand, which speaks to at the very least, the boy's survival being a "temporal junction point" moment.

The egg apostles own flesh would have been enough
How are you so sure of that? We know from later episodes that the inside of apostles is deeply connected to the astral world. It's how Ganishka's artificial beherit worked. So the beherit-apostle was likely just the chamber (or hey, vessel!) for the incarnation, not the sustenance, or the "meat."

The wording by Griffith is enough for me to be convinced by it.
That line ("my vessel") alone is not conclusive of anything, unless we're having some miscommunication about what the word vessel means. The egg ended up as the shell. That's seems pretty straightforward to me. Whether the boy was intended to be there as host of what ended up being a possession or the child we saw manifested from nothing somewhere between the panels (it doesn't), the egg was always going to be the "vessel" for the ceremony.

Generally the idea of the God Hand relying on the egg apostle swallowing the demon child out of pity seems way less believable than it happening coincidentally as a result of Guts and Casca surviving a meant death in the first place.
Not sure I follow you here, because there are a number of crazy "coincidences" that happen in the series that fell according to causality. The beherit blocked a poison arrow, for example. Also, Casca was a fundamental requirement of that ceremony, and she wouldn't have been there in that moment without the intervention of the boy, not only in vol 18, but the other presumed encounters of danger prior to then.

the egg apostles form is what makes me have no doubts about him always being meant to be the vessel for Griffith. His sole purpose of creation was for that to be the case.
That's not in question. You just seem to be looking at the word "vessel" er, differently? The beherit-apostle was the medium for the incarnation moment, not the body itself.

Everything that could have been planned and manipulated got influenced by the God Hand, but the demon child itself is a product of a birth that should not have happened in the first place.
I guess this is the stumbling block then — what makes you think the birth wasn't supposed to happen? If you think Guts and Casca were "meant to die" at the Eclipse, then how do you explain that Casca was the key to triggering the whole incarnation ceremony?
 
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Perhaps the God Hand's intention was just for there to be some infant that would become Femto's reincarnation. With so many pilgrims in the area, it's not much of a stretch to imagine that at least some of them would have brought children along. From there, it would be simple for causality to carry that child to the Egg of the Perfect World and be reborn into Griffith. What the God Hand didn't consider is Guts and Casca's appearance at Albion, and thus the demon child's as well. Rather than some unaware infant with no worldly attachments whose scant thoughts and feelings wouldn't have any effect upon Griffith, they ended up with a very aware and very powerful ghost child with a pair of people he's determined to protect.

The God Hand's dialogue during the Eclipse suggests that they viewed Skull Knight's intervention and Guts and Casca's survival as unforeseen yet ultimately inconsequential twists. If the demon child's incorporation into Griffith's reincarnation was intentional, were they lying about their true plans? And if so, why would the God Hand incorporate such a major flaw? Did the God Hand just not know that the demon child would be able to exert that much control over Griffith's body? Is there more to the Idea of Evil's plans than the God Hand are aware of?
 
For what it's worth, in Volume 13, Slan herself entertains the notion that Guts and Casca being saved by Skull Knight was also fated to happen.
 
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Oh, true. I forgot about that line. The closeup on Void's face just after does seem to imply that he knows more than the rest of them, too.
 
Perhaps the God Hand's intention was just for there to be some infant that would become Femto's reincarnation. With so many pilgrims in the area, it's not much of a stretch to imagine that at least some of them would have brought children along.
This is also the way I have reasoned it in the past. As was said before, the egg apostle was just a vessel and "extra flesh" of some kind needed to be consumed. But I have also read it as any infant being viable for this role (ex. the pilgrim kids before their parents began getting possessed:magni:), and that the egg apostle consuming the most "risky" vessel possible was not necessarily planned (in a way the skull knight kind of "blocked" the egg apostle from re-approaching the pilgrim camp even if it tried).

What Walter is saying is probably closest to the correct interpretation, however. The demon child was likely meant to be consumed all along, but its feelings should not have carried over post reincarnation (Would those emotions have carried over if its mother had burned at the stake as she was supposed to? That occurrence may remain the true ripple in causality's stream :guts:).

If that is the case, however, I wonder if the fact that the demon child is bound to the astral world was actually necessary for it to be the flesh that was used for Femto's corporeal body? Would a regular infant have worked just as well?

Glad this thread was started @TRJJB ! It is a conversation that has been addressed before but remains one of the most complicated imo. Aaz will show up soon enough to clarify/ show us where we (or just me) are fucking up lol
 
Compared with that, which is pretty "out there," I prefer Occam's Razor. I think the boy was intended to be there, but his feelings were supposed to have been eradicated or utterly suppressed by Femto's incarnation. Based on Femto's reaction on the Hill of Swords, that's what went awry. We don't see Femto reflect on anything being amiss until the boy's feelings surface. This once-in-1000-years ceremony resulted in something unpredictable for even the God Hand, which speaks to at the very least, the boy's survival being a "temporal junction point" moment.
That's probably what I wanted to hear. Griffith himself might not be the best source of information regarding his new body, since as you said, the illustrations contradict his words. This further establishes that he wasn't aware of said flaw before the ceremony, and now his body has an exploitable weakness.

Thanks for everyones involvement, reading the english version, while not being 100% proficient is a pain.
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
Aaz will show up soon enough to clarify/ show us where we (or just me) are fucking up lol
No need for me, Walter already explained it quite clearly. Check out his post. The short answer is that we don't know whether the boy was required or not, and with all due respect you guys aren't going to suddenly find some missing clue that no one had found before.

If it isn't a problem, could someone clarify my doubts, possibly by directly translating the official japanese quote?
Courtesy of @puella, a translation that stays close to the original would be:

...This is maybe the thoughts/mind/heart of the baby, who was merged/fused into [the object is omitted], becoming my vessel.

Now, I'm probably grasping at straws, but wouldn't that mean the infant was not essential to Griffith's rebirth
Griffith was not reborn in volume 21. He was reborn as Femto in volume 13. Then, in volume 21, Femto was incarnated into a new corporeal body (that happens to look like Griffith). Not reincarnated, mind you. Incarnated, as in he was purely a spirit before, and he received a body of flesh.

the Egg-shaped Apostle decided to monch the baby on just a whim, without any reason aside from pity?
The apostle clearly just noticed the baby by chance and absorbed him out of pity. He didn't know what this entailed, nor was he meant to. However this in itself does not mean that occurrence was not planned by a higher entity (the Idea of Evil).

Generally the idea of the God Hand relying on the egg apostle swallowing the demon child out of pity seems way less believable than it happening coincidentally as a result of Guts and Casca surviving a meant death in the first place.
Planning an event of this magnitude is above the God Hand's pay grade to begin with. Looks like most people in this thread are missing on that key point. Femto did not plan his own incarnation.

Especially the brand he got, making it possible for the monsters to manifest and swallow up the thousands of citizens.
The apostle had sacrificed "his world", and that is how and why everybody in Albion was killed. In that regard the brand on his tongue doesn't matter as much as the one that appears on the land itself in episode 163.

Perhaps the God Hand's intention was just for there to be some infant that would become Femto's reincarnation. With so many pilgrims in the area, it's not much of a stretch to imagine that at least some of them would have brought children along.
That's not how it works. Like Walter said, these things occur through fine manipulation of the principle of causality. It's not a crapshoot.

What the God Hand didn't consider is Guts and Casca's appearance at Albion
On the contrary, their presence there was a requirement for this ceremony, since it is a "mirror image" of what occurred during the Eclipse.

An important question to consider however is whether Casca was meant to survive or not. Her survival at that time has enormous consequences for the rest of the series (many of which we've yet to see).
 
The apostle had sacrificed "his world", and that is how and why everybody in Albion was killed. In that regard the brand on his tongue doesn't matter as much as the one that appears on the land itself in episode 163.
I always assumed that the Egg apostle having a brand was something that the God Hand had planned with the reason of the Monsters being able to materialize and swallow up the people residing in the tower. Thus causing an insane amount of concentrated energy by having a mass killing of people who had no chance of escaping.



I know that in this panel Puck specifically refers to Guts and Cascas brands intensifying the process, but lets just say that Guts and Casca were indeed meant to die during the eclipse, then wouldn't be the brand on the egg apostle be pointless?



We know that the Egg Apostle sacrificed the world around him, but the brand we see during the incarnation ceremony seems more symbolic, rather than an actual brand that the Egg Apostle or Guts has.

Ultimately i thought that Guts and Cascas unexpected survival got used by the IOE in the process of intensifying the process of the incarnation ceremony, with at the same time their survival during the eclipse leading to an unwanted snowball effect of the demon child ultimately fusing into Griffiths vessel.


But yeah, none of this is obviously is definite and it seems to work both ways no matter how you twist it. Looking at Walters response and considering the transformation of the childs body makes me definitely question more what i was thinking
 

Aazealh

そうはいかぬ
Staff member
I always assumed that the Egg apostle having a brand was something that the God Hand had planned with the reason of the Monsters being able to materialize and swallow up the people residing in the tower.
The Beherit Apostle is branded because he was marked for sacrifice, it's as simple as that. And I don't believe just having a branded person there would have been enough to call forth such an enormous amount of specters were it not a very special, "once in a thousand years" occasion.

I know that in this panel Puck specifically refers to Guts and Cascas brands intensifying the process, but lets just say that Guts and Casca were indeed meant to die during the eclipse, then wouldn't be the brand on the egg apostle be pointless?
See above. The brand signifies that the Beherit Apostle offered himself as a sacrifice, or more specifically as a part of his sacrifice (and he indeed is consumed by the incarnation process). The brand isn't just some beacon for evil creatures, that's merely a side effect of the branded being destined to join the Vortex of Souls.

We know that the Egg Apostle sacrificed the world around him, but the brand we see during the incarnation ceremony seems more symbolic, rather than an actual brand that the Egg Apostle or Guts has.
He sacrificed the world around him and then a giant brand is formed on the world around him just as the massacre that eventually destroys the world around him begins. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Ultimately i thought that Guts and Cascas unexpected survival got used by the IOE in the process of intensifying the process of the incarnation ceremony, with at the same time their survival during the eclipse leading to an unwanted snowball effect of the demon child ultimately fusing into Griffiths vessel.
So, the incarnation ceremony is a once in a thousand years event. Many things contributed to it. Albion's reputation and history, the hundred years war, the plague, the existence of the Holy See and Mozgus being in charge there, the Midland king's descent into madness, the Egg Apostle... And of course the Occultation ceremony which it mirrored. Things that happened during the Eclipse were bound to be repeated, which is why Guts & Casca were there. Same thing with the Skull Knight and Zodd.

I also challenge the idea that the event was amplified compared to what had originally been planned. The goal was always that all humans assembled there would die, serving as sacrifices for Femto's incarnation. Just like the Band of the Falcon was sacrificed when Griffith became Femto. Lastly, since we know so little about the Idea of Evil, it's hard to know exactly what it accounts for or not. Were Guts and Casca meant to survive the Eclipse? Hard to say. But keep two things in mind: the first is that the Skull Knight's appearance on top of Ganishka was not only expected but even possibly necessary in order for Fantasia to come into being. The second is that to this day, Guts carries a beherit around.
 
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