Guts/Griffith Dream

T

trapped_soul

"This is it. It's over."
How would you define the dream of Guts?
I thought about that and was unable to find his real motivation.

revenge?
is that really it?

and...
How would you define the dream of Griffith,

Still dreaming of his own castle? dreaming of being "the ruler"?

power?
is that really it?




or... is there something else?    ???
 
Guts is undefined right now. However I guess you could say that hes just driven to get revenge for his "family", the Hawks.

Griffiths is much more complex. He desires to be under the control of no one. To establish his own order so that he will owe nothing to anyone. To be "free".
 
i thought revenge is the diversion from guts' original dream

didn't he say that his dream, at least in the beginning, is to be free from griffith (and therefore free from everything) and to become his equal?

but nowadays, it seems like protecting his loved ones is guts' dream or maybe that is another diversion (how unromantic!)
 
i personally dont think Guts ever had a real dream in mind...
he only "left" Griff's dream so he would be seen as a friend to Griff(IMHO). he went off in search of a dream, but couldnt find one, a real one at least(unless im missing something here...).

Griff's dream, well it does involve power, control, and a kingdom...
 
    I have always thought that while Griffith has clarity of vision concerning his childhood dream, his current desires go unrealized. He submitted himself to the eclipse as a matter of course-- it was easy to predict considering his past ambitions and actions, but immediately Griffith hesitates to destroy Gutts. Perhaps this was to preserve Casca's unborn child; however, I believe there was another motive.
    Griffith has an intense and unrequited love for what Gutts stands for, essentially a good human being in control of his destiny. Where Griffith has been moved and primed by the God Hand from his birth, Gutts manages to escape Griffith's and the God Hand's grasp. The most notable examples are Gutts's break from the Band of the Hawk, where Griffith for the first time looks confused and surprised, Gutt's escape from the Eclipse, which the God Hand acknowledge as a surprising turn of events, and Gutts's continued survival despite the brand. Griffith now tries to dominate Gutts as an automatic response, revealing his power over Casca and calling Gutts unimportant or part of his plan.
    Gutts's dream is to find a purpose in life, his situation being the essential antipode of Griffith's. Casca may play a big role in this as Gutts tries to define his position in the world by his relationship with her. Unfortunately, Casca is not in the shape to provide a relationship with anyone, so Gutts finds at least a temporary function as Griffith's nemesis. Also, Gutts is rightfully pissed at Griffith.
 
Professor Ape is a college educated man and it shows in his excellent anaylisis of Berserk. Good show! We need more good Berserk researchers! Oh, and Megatokyo sucks.
 
didn't he say that his dream, at least in the beginning, is to be free from griffith (and therefore free from everything) and to become his equal?
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Yeah, that's the reason he left, though. Ultimately he wanted to find something he could cling to, as he told casca by the hill 'There's no fire for me here.' He needed to find a reason for his existence...the only thing he found was that he wanted to do his own thing, and in doing so would find his 'dream.'

Oh, and Megatokyo sucks.
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Wow...you're right.
 
Well I think griffy really wanted to become a King, like sitting on a throne and ruling everything that happens in town. Gatsu, on the other hand, should sooner or later see that he has no dream, his dream is to wield a sword and smash ppl's brains. He realises something similiar during the training in the mountains, I think, and let's face it, he ain't no nuclear scientist either. Wielding the sword is ALL he's good for after all, but at the same time, he has so much potential. In a way, he is very opposite to griffy. Griffis is white, gattsu is black, griff has a dream, gatsu doesn't. anyway, that's just some rambling i came up with...
 
Gatsu, on the other hand, should sooner or later see that he has no dream, his dream is to wield a sword and smash ppl's brains.
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....does NO ONE see the signifigance of the symbolism in Berserk? The castle and sword are symbols of freedom of choice.
 
....does NO ONE see the signifigance of the symbolism in Berserk? The castle and sword are symbols of freedom of choice.
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Sorry man, but I'm confused...how exactly does the sword and castle do that...I'm not saracstic or anything...just dumb I guesss, so if you'd care to explain...
 
....does NO ONE see the signifigance of the symbolism in Berserk? The castle and sword are symbols of freedom of choice.
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i thought we mentiioned that like 10000 posts ago back in the not-so-bitter days of the board, or something like that.

anyhow i concur with you.
 
Yes, I very much agree with Walter. It's even said early in the (anime) series:

"To protect his little bruised heart,
One grabs a sword.
To forge his own destiny,
One grabs a sword."

-Clearly these descibe the paths of Gatsu and Griffith. Gatsu grabs the "sword" because he has to. Griffith does because he wants to rule the world. Though we never really gain so much insight as to why Griffith has that particular dream. I may have just missed it, but isn't that right? I mean we don't know any backstory on Griffith, other than from Caska's flashback.

There are many unanswered questions with Griffith. But I belieive that they will be answered, eventually. Griffith is a character shrouded in msytery. Even the members of that were closest to him didn't know him that well. One thing that was apparent, though, is that Gatsu was a big part of Griffith's dream. Griffith needed Gatsu by his side. Why? Because Griffith had feelings for Gatsu. Feelings that even he would not acknowledge. Gatsu was Griffith's prize, and as much as Griffith tried to deny his feelings he could not stop them from coming after Gatsu left. Gatsu ultimately made Griffith betray his dream. Gatsu made Griffith feel helpless. Now I think Griffith's dream is not only to try a rule the world, but to incorporate Gatsu into his life again. To "win" Gatsu back by making him suffer. And in many ways, I think that dream supercedes becoming King.

As for Gatsu, the only dream I think he has right now is for things to be more like they used to be. No monsters, no insane Caska, just a normal life. I think that's all Gatsu has ever wanted. He has always struggled to be accepted. When he finally realized that the Hawks accepted him, even admired him, that was his dream: to stay with the Hawks, and Caska. But Griffith crushed that dream. One thing I would be interested to find out, if Miura ever chooses to reveal it, is Gatsu's father and mother. Why was she hanged? Who was his father? I think Gatsu unknowingly seeks such answers, and his dreams would radically change if he ever found out.

It's quite ironic that Gatsu and Griffith destroy each other's dream...but then again one does not pick up a sword in the name of his dream unless he is prepared to strike another down.
 
a further question we can ask ourselves is why griffith wants to rule over the world/midland.

personally, i believe that the reason for his "shallow" dream is Griffith's desire for freedom --not to be ruled by anyone else (even though he does not realize it)

and this is the reason why i suspect that griffith will come to a realization and turn against the god hand because fate is IN CONTROL
 
a further question we can ask ourselves is why griffith wants to rule over the world/midland.

personally, i believe that the reason for his "shallow" dream is Griffith's desire for freedom --not to be ruled by anyone else (even though he does not realize it)

and this is the reason why i suspect that griffith will come to a realization and turn against the god hand because fate is IN CONTROL
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I think you're right but looking at the big picture, Griffith will need to overcome Idea, not just God Hand. I think for him to do this would require him to be a benevolent ruler of Midland and in sense reverse the process in which Idea was created by the negative feelings of humans. Physically, I don't think there's anything that can oppose God Hand and Idea which makes me wonder why Skull Night attacks Void. Perhaps Skull Night exists in the same realm as God Hand, but that is another story entirely.
 
"To protect his little bruised heart,
One grabs a sword.
To forge his own destiny,
One grabs a sword."
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I love that quote. I just had to say it.
Though we never really gain so much insight as to why Griffith has that particular dream.
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I dont think Miura will go over that particular detail. I personally just think its a chain reaction of trying to obtain freedom. To be under the influence of no one. It perhaps started small, and got really big.

There are many unanswered questions with Griffith.  But I belieive that they will be answered, eventually.  Griffith is a character shrouded in msytery.  Even the members of that were closest to him didn't know him that well.
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Thats because he was barely even human in regards to his emotions. His "friends" hardly knew him because he gave them nothing. He lived solely for his dream. He didnt bestow upon them with anything more than false airs of kindness and politeness.  
Griffith needed Gatsu by his side.  Why?  Because Griffith had feelings for Gatsu.  Feelings that even he would not acknowledge.
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Could it also be indirectly that Guts was able to nearly stand on equal with Griffith though (he became, after all, a dream chaser)? Methinks yes. Griffith never encountered anyone who was able to do such a thing.

Now I think Griffith's dream is not only to try a rule the world, but to incorporate Gatsu into his life again.  To "win" Gatsu back by making him suffer.
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Well that wasnt expressed at all in Chapters 179-182...
 One thing I would be interested to find out, if Miura ever chooses to reveal it, is Gatsu's father and mother.  Why was she hanged?  Who was his father?
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Ehh...its a pretty damned cliche'd idea. I realy dont think Miura will touch on it. Its not alluded to at ALL after Volume 3 (the only time its mentioned).
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'Looks like a bad translation...
What a surprise, huh? ^^;
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I quoted that verbatim from the anime series. Does Miura say the same thing in the manga? If so, do you know a more accurate translation of it? It is said right before they explain the war between Midland and Tuda, so I wonder if it relates to that more than anything else. But it seems so poetic, though :(
 
I quoted that verbatim from the anime series.  Does Miura say the same thing in the manga?  If so, do you know a more accurate translation of it?  It is said right before they explain the war between Midland and Tuda, so I wonder if it relates to that more than anything else.  But it seems so poetic, though  :(
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"Man takes up the sword to protect the small injuries that burdened his
heart, on a distant day beyond his memories"
"Man wields the sword to die with a smile on his face, on a distant day
beyond his dreams"

From the trans that I posted on this site...
Great thanks to Olivier for the great help he gave me on them!!
youd hate to see what i had before he helped! ;D
 
Ok Olivier, let's see if this makes any sense  ;D:

"Shitoa kyu kono kanata haruga toihi kokoro ni o tachi sana kabe utame ni kenro toru.

Shitoa omoi no kanata harugatoihi hoho imi nara yukutami ni kenro fu."

I am not yet fluent in Japanese (I just started elementary Japanese  ::)), so I don't know how correct the spelling or word structure is (ideally, it would be written in Hiragana, which I do know).  Hopefully, you can work with that.   :P
 
Thanks.
Well, that's what I thought: it's the same line as in the manga, and that translation isn't accurate. ^^;
There's a more accurate one here:
http://www.skullknight.net/manga/chapterthumbs/translations/Volume 05Ch03.txt
"Man takes up the sword to protect the small injuries that burdened his heart, on a distant day beyond his memories.
Man wields the sword to die with a smile on his face, on a distant day beyond his dreams."

EDIT: I didn't notice Ranemaka's message, sorry! ^^;
 
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