Inbetween a rock and a hard place

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Meh at large.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070329/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq

So as what I can see, in order for Bush to get the funds he wants he will have to agree to pulling troops out of Iraq which he won't agree because he wants to save face. I don't see either side getting what they want honestly because Bush is just going to veto it and the senate won't pass another bill with out the troop with draw being in it.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah I read that this morning, a tight situation indeed. The main problem to me is that Iraq is a total mess right now. If the USA retreats now they'll get flak for this failure of a war till the next millennium. I mean, criticism is already predominant, but at least people can't say the US government doesn't care or that it doesn't take responsability for its actions.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Yea they don't have the votes to overturn a veto, so a stalemate is likely unless political pressure is put on Bush.

But quite frankly this is the sort of bill that should have happened when this debacle started. There should have been criteria or guidelines (proper understanding of the region -just off the top of my head) that should have been placed in the initial vote to go to war.

Bush seems to want another blank check (anything less is "hurting the troops"), and I'm afraid those days are over.

Aazealh said:
Yeah I read that this morning, a tight situation indeed. The main problem to me is that Iraq is a total mess right now. If the USA retreats now they'll get flak for this failure of a war till the next millennium. I mean, criticism is already predominant, but at least people can't say the US government doesn't care or that it doesn't take responsability for its actions.
And as a citizen of that country I think we ought to man up and accept the loss. If this is the swift kick in the balls it takes for this country to gain some humility, I'm fine with it. Perhaps thats just me.
 
I must say, our nation is really headed down a bad path... I don't like any of the candidates in the next election either, certainly I don't think they are qualified to deal with this mess. And the Euro just keeps growing in worth, while our economy is stagnant. Ah well, at least we have freedom fries.
 
I wouldn't have said it during the Reagan or Clinton years. Anyway, I don't want to make this a political debate, so I'll just leave it at that.

EDIT: Also, the past few years have born witness to an interesting phenomenon, which is that a majority of Americans say (in polling) that they believe their children will be born into a world worse than the one they were born into. I certainly think there's something to that. Also, a link: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/311/once-again-the-future-aint-what-it-used-to-be
This article is interesting as well: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/12/cant-get-no-satisfaction
 
Bah, polls. "Worse Off" could be a general statement, aimed at those unholy degenerates of every generation or the curse of technology over coming us, there's no real sound reason as to say why all the opinions converge that way. Heck, if you were to ask me now the same question, I'd take into account Mortal Kombat II was taboo when I was a kid and words like "Shit" and "Son of a Bitch" not being allowed on daytime TV, and we have far more taboo subjects now (The internet is for porn). Thus I would most likely say "Yeah, they're totally fucked." And I'm pretty sure every previous generation has something negative to foretell about the next given their standards of living, and for all we know each generation grows up thinking the next will see Armageddon.

CnC is pretty much right, I don't think there was any time in American or even global history where a large majority said "no, we're perfectly fine with everything that embodies the USA", so again it's no big deal.


As for the bill, my stepfather is being sent back there (Middle East) to Iraq this summer, and I can't say I was thrilled to find out. I like the idea of the bill "Here's a bunch of money, but you can't have it unless you give this", true political compromising fashion, so a part of me hopes it works. However, I guess like most I view it to just get a big old Veto stamp from the president.
 
Well, I admit that I'm somewhat biased here. Still though, I'm seriously considering immigrating to Ireland (my great grandparents came over, so it's relatively easy with the current law) from the U.S. upon completing my education, in no small part due to the present state of this country's government and economic system. I can tell you that characteristics that this nation was believed to have, and the ideals it was supposed to embody for those Irish immigrants, are not the case, though perhaps they never were. I suppose it isn't a big deal for most Americans, but in my case it is, and very much so. Erin Go Bragh, I suppose. Anyway, I don't want to drag this further off topic, so I'll stop with that, but I feel it's only fair if I lay my cards on the table in the matter.
 
Oh no I'm pretty much in agreement with you, I don't see much optimism in the case of America at this point, but I'll wait to book overseas.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
But quite frankly this is the sort of bill that should have happened when this debacle started. There should have been criteria or guidelines (proper understanding of the region -just off the top of my head) that should have been placed in the initial vote to go to war.
Yeah, or maybe the opinion of friendly EVIL BAD European nations *wink wink*, or the reports that there were no WMDs in Iraq, etc.

CnC said:
And as a citizen of that country I think we ought to man up and accept the loss. If this is the swift kick in the balls it takes for this country to gain some humility, I'm fine with it. Perhaps thats just me.
Well for USA itself I don't think it'd be that much of a big deal, just another war for Hollywood to make movies about. But from the international community's point of view I think it would probably look irresponsible toward Iraq as it's pretty much in ruins right now.

bph said:
I must say, our nation is really headed down a bad path... I don't like any of the candidates in the next election either, certainly I don't think they are qualified to deal with this mess.
If that's of any recomfort to you, the presidential canditates all suck here too, and the governement has sucked for years. Economy's not doing so well either. In regard to what you're saying about the USA and moving to Ireland, I'll just say that the grass is always greener in the neighbor's backyard.
 
S

Sanguinius

Guest
Aazealh said:
If that's of any recomfort to you, the presidential canditates all suck here too, and the governement has sucked for years. Economy's not doing so well either. In regard to what you're saying about the USA and moving to Ireland, I'll just say that the grass is always greener in the neighbor's backyard.
Not like you to make two mistakes in one post Aaz 1. Go Sarkozy and 2. the grass is really green here, I can send you a soil sample if you doubt me. :troll:
 
Anyways i think that the South American people are right, USA = Roman Empire.
And the current situation of the economy, well.. It had to happen sometime.. With India and China starting to grow "stronger" and all.. I mean, here in Portugal there's a Chinese store in every street..
 

Vaxillus

The one and only severed head
This whole thing is a mess (I know, no shit Sherlock). My opinion on the issue is that we'd be better off with a more modern form of Democracy like the European Union's. As Aaz pointed out, the candidates probably won't get better, but the electorate system we have makes it too hard for 3rd parties to effectively influence poltics and add their own spins to solutions. Right now it's more like all or nothing. Frankly, I'd say both choices suck. I'm all for pulling out, but if we do the current government could collapse.

The thing I find interesting is that we haven't heard much from the Democrats concerning a withdrawl policy. Sure the party opposes sending in more troops, but since they aren't in a position to turn the situation around they're basically getting free popularity points for opposing it.

Anyways, my head hurts, I'm moving to Canada to live out my days in permanent, unending mediocrity.
 
Sanguinius said:
Not like you to make two mistakes in one post Aaz 1. Go Sarkozy and 2. the grass is really green here, I can send you a soil sample if you doubt me. :troll:
Sir, are you a fellow Irishman? Ta ceann faoi orm, nil moran Gaeilge agam. Nil mor e le taobh thu, cibe sceal e.

Anyway Aaz, as far as I know Ireland has the fastest growing economy in the EU, I'm a huge fan of the system of government (as well as a Sinn Fein supporter), and as a traditional Irish Catholic in the U.S I feel rather disenfranchised. I'm rather disenfranchised with the entire culture. After spending an entire summer (four months) in County Cork, I've had too much of a taste to be satisfied with the American midwest, I think.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Sanguinius said:
Not like you to make two mistakes in one post Aaz 1. Go Sarkozy
Hahaha, why do I get the feeling you don't know what you're talking about?

Sanguinius said:
2. the grass is really green here, I can send you a soil sample if you doubt me. :troll:
Well I didn't say the grass wasn't green so I guess you might want to re-read my post or something. :casca:

bph said:
as a traditional Irish Catholic in the U.S I feel rather disenfranchised. I'm rather disenfranchised with the entire culture. After spending an entire summer (four months) in County Cork, I've had too much of a taste to be satisfied with the American midwest, I think.
Alright, if it's your personal eldorado you should go for it, all I'm saying is that it's often risky to compare something you've seen as a tourist (when you have at all) to the place you've lived in all your life.
 
S

Sanguinius

Guest
Vaxillus said:
The thing I find interesting is that we haven't heard much from the Democrats concerning a withdrawl policy. Sure the party opposes sending in more troops, but since they aren't in a position to turn the situation around they're basically getting free popularity points for opposing it.
I think you'll find that is the point, make a lot of noise pass resolutions in Congress the President will never except, get the sympathy of the people so you can then blame Bush for everything then fly home to an easy victory in 2008.

bph said:
Sir, are you a fellow Irishman? Ta ceann faoi orm, nil moran Gaeilge agam. Nil mor e le taobh thu, cibe sceal e.

Anyway Aaz, as far as I know Ireland has the fastest growing economy in the EU, I'm a huge fan of the system of government (as well as a Sinn Fein supporter), and as a traditional Irish Catholic in the U.S I feel rather disenfranchised. I'm rather disenfranchised with the entire culture. After spending an entire summer (four months) in County Cork, I've had too much of a taste to be satisfied with the American midwest, I think.
No, I am British and vote for the Democratic Unionist Party if you do come to this island I advise you stay on the culchie side of the border.

Aazealh said:
Hahaha, why do I get the feeling you don't know what you're talking about?
Indeed I do, France needs a kick out of its complacency, a bit like we did at the end of the seventies while I don't think Sarkozy will be a French Thatcher or anything he is more likely to reform France than the other two or Chirac.

Aazealh said:
Well I didn't say the grass wasn't green so I guess you might want to re-read my post or something. :casca:
No need to take me so literally I am just being contrary.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Sanguinius said:
Indeed I do, France needs a kick out of its complacency, a bit like we did at the end of the seventies while I don't think Sarkozy will be a French Thatcher or anything he is more likely to reform France than the other two or Chirac.
He's not more likely to do much efficaciously, that's the problem and that's why I made that comment. His actions within the government so far have proven more than mediocre in actual facts. All talk, no action, and the little action taken often proved less than satisfactory. Not to mention all the controversy around him. I don't think you can know the character for what he really is from international news. Comparing him to the "Iron Lady" almost sounds like a joke to me.

Sanguinius said:
No need to take me so literally I am just being contrary.
Oh I know what you were going for, but I wasn't going to let it fly. :void:
 
S

Sanguinius

Guest
Aazealh said:
He's not more likely to do much efficaciously, that's the problem and that's why I made that comment. His actions within the government so far have proven more than mediocre in actual facts. All talk, no action, and the little action taken often proved less than satisfactory. Not to mention all the controversy around him. I don't think you can know the character for what he really is from international news. Comparing him to the "Iron Lady" almost sounds like a joke to me.
I said I did not expect him to be a French Thatcher, but out of what's on offer he is the most likely candidate who will do something. Maybe your right and the reports I have heard (economist) have exaggerated his reforming zeal, but out of the 3 main candidates do you think any other would be better?
 
Sanguinius, don't get me wrong sir. I don't support the former IRA, but I am very much a staunch Republican and a believer in Irish self determination when it comes to Irish political ideology. Sadly, I don't think there's much middle ground between the Fenian and the Unionist even now, but I mean you no insult.

Actually, when I was at University College Cork, I took a trip across the border and staid with some friends of my parish priest, and I have to say that we felt rather unwelcome with the general population. It didn't help matters that I was wearing a t-shirt that said "St. Mary's Catholic Church Softball 2004" walking around the Protestant part of Derry, I know that. It was really too bad, I'm Ulster Irish on my mother's side and I had hoped to see where my family came from in Derry, but the tension was absolutely unbelievable.

I completely understand where you're coming from on that front, considering that McGuinness and Gerry Adams are the face of the party despite their connections to the bombings, but it's a tough situation regardless of where you stand. Anyway, no point in continuing a 1000 year old debate in a message board, eh?

Peace be with you, my friend.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Sanguinius said:
I said I did not expect him to be a French Thatcher, but out of what's on offer he is the most likely candidate who will do something. Maybe your right and the reports I have heard (economist) have exaggerated his reforming zeal, but out of the 3 main candidates do you think any other would be better?
Well it's not like reforming in itself is a always good thing anyway. There are stupid reforms as well as good ones (and unfortunately, giving away our highways that are money-making factories didn't strike me as very smart when it happened, nor did it to independent economists). As for the main 3 candidates, honestly to me they're all bad, and I don't think he's the "least bad" of the 3 either. That may seem pessimistic, but I see it as a no-win situation where only luck might make things better. I think there's a serious lack of honest, competent (and charismatic enough to get elected) politicians in France. They just all throw their efforts in communication (the American way...) and appearances, make hundreds of promises they'll never keep, and roll over in demagogy like pigs in the mud. Sadly that feeling is shared by a large part of the population, and it's quite frustrating.

But anyway, that isn't the topic. I'll just choose this moment to let us remember the people who back then weren't so hot about a war in Iraq, and that instead of being listened to were insulted and called enemies in spite of hundreds of years of "friendship." And these same guys were ignored for the Vietnam war too, guess it's the spiral of causality. =)
 
Aaz, I would simply remind you that with the current political climate in America, only about half viewed the French in that way. It's simply that after Sept. 11, I think most Americans were willing to blindly support anything the Republican party espoused, including anti-French sentiment. Certainly, our Liberal side is more in keeping with modern French culture and political views, so it's important to remember that.

It's rather funny, when I was in High School (after the initial invasion and at the height of Anti-French rhetoric) I had some interesting discussions with my conservative, right wing classmates. Surprisingly enough, the justification that many used had nothing to do with Iraq or foreign policy, but with perceived French immorality and specifically Catholicism in general. In the same instance, many had supported Bush due to his perceived moral superiority over Kerry and Gore. As a left wing Irish Catholic, I was rather amused.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
bph said:
Aaz, I would simply remind you that with the current political climate in America, only about half viewed the French in that way. It's simply that after Sept. 11, I think most Americans were willing to blindly support anything the Republican party espoused, including anti-French sentiment.
Oh, I'm not saying it was the whole population, nor do I think it was only against France, since quite a lot of countries didn't think going to war was a good idea. I just found the attitude itself to be childish at the time, and while expected, I still find it sad that it led to the current result.

bph said:
It's rather funny, when I was in High School (after the initial invasion and at the height of Anti-French rhetoric) I had some interesting discussions with my conservative, right wing classmates. Surprisingly enough, the justification that many used had nothing to do with Iraq or foreign policy, but with perceived French immorality and specifically Catholicism in general.
Haha well, you guys have a lot of weird Christian cults over there anyway, with the legendary puritanism that accompanies it. Religion isn't nearly as much of a big deal here. Practicing religious people are quite rare.
 
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