Literary criticism of Berserk

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Aazealh said:
Actually, Femto popped out of a fist. Griffith came back to the world with the Egg-Apostle hatching. I'm curious what you mean regarding Guts though, where do you see that rebirth experience you're speaking of?

Hahaha, not sure that's an adequate use of the word, but at least it made me laugh. :guts:

You mean to tell me you never noticed Guts' re-birth symbolism? It's very heavy and full of elements that hint at Gnostic beliefs in some ways. Not to mention that there are two major incidences of it.

The first example is the least complex and most subtle but also obviously the most pivotal: Femto's incarnation as Griffith is shared by Guts' seed in the form of The Demon Child. In the mythological and paternal sense, this counts as a re-birth experience for Guts: He impregnates Casca, (This series of events illuminates her importance by the way) He and Casca's child is infused or perhaps even consecrated if you like, by Femto: Guts, Casca, Femto/Griffith . . . Can we call that a Holy Trinity?
As a result of this and other circumstances: Guts' very seed is brought into Godhood through Griffith's Incarnation, he has effectively become a self-made God on his own terms.

The second example has more of the classic trappings of transformation and re-birth in Berserk and is much more convoluted: I suspect that Miura wrote it in in part to help illuminate and draw parallels too the previous example: We already know that Guts' encounter with Slann in the Qliphoth is highly sexual in nature; however, the metaphors run deep and the event leads to Guts' re-birth as The Beast Swordsman . . . or maybe it's better to state that it leads to the Incarnation of The Beast itself?
Guts enters the "Womb" of the Goddess, uncertain of himself, it's driven home that it's an alien environment that he's never fought in before. Once Slann appears, the symbolic nature of the Qliphoth is fully realized: The Goddess awakens to torment and taunt our hero and Guts hangs there languishing in agony and uncertainty. He does not believe that he is capable of striking her, Slann knows exactly what's going on and everything about her serves to drive home the Sexual Metaphor. After receiving advice from an older, more experienced individual, Guts rams his sword home . . . Right through Slann's womb no less. Note her Sexually Charged reaction: The scene serves as a metaphor for the sexual fears and frustrations of Males, chiefly the fear that we will be unable to Sexually Satisfy or impregnate a Woman.
After escaping from the Qliphoth, Guts is changed, he has fulfilled his role as a man and has gained a dark sort of knowledge and an awareness of his own potency. However, it's come with a heavy price attached, plus, it's not so much that Guts has impregnated Slann: As much as it is that Guts has arguably impregnated himself through her. Back at Flora's, Guts disappears underground to acquire the Berserk's Armor: Miura works in some additional symbolism by having him be reborn from a Vagina-Dentata Apostle in a bloody affair, around this point, Zodd points out that he is on the road to becoming like Skull Knight. In context, this seems to indicate a wise and mature man who has confidence in his sexual prowess. Most likely, Zodd means more then this but it's important in that that is the mantle that The Skull Knight had assumed just previously in the Qliphoth.
This leads itself to some speculation about the Nature of the Vagina-Dentata Apostle and Apostles themselves. Apostles are formed in part from the Vortex of Souls, much like The Idea and The God Hand, one can argue that they are conglomerations; Human Constructs formed from the dark side of Human Nature and Desires. Having Guts rip his way out of a Vagina-Dentata Apostle is a profound statement. Keep in mind that the Vagina-Dentata is also a Human Construct born from Man's fears and insecurities. Guts' incarnation as The Beast Swordsman is born from an Apostle Masquerading as a false Womb, a false God; and he obliterates that construct in the process of his appropriation of it. Guts' character repeatedly and consistently serves to illuminate Truth and to Destroy Falsehood on many levels. Both symbolic and literal.
Guts emerges from this Womb in a new form but something is happening: The Astral Wound Slann gave him serves as a womb through which The Beast is born or Incarnated into the World, taking The Berserk's Armor as its vessel.
Thus, Guts goes through multiple incarnations of himself, each with unique attributes and aspects. He has become The Warrior with a Thousand Faces, all in a World to himself.
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Walter said:
You're really reaching, dude.

Well, I feel that The Symbolic elements I've outlined are all there and readily apparent. I might be reading too much into it but that's just my interpretation of those elements.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Forest Wraith said:
You mean to tell me you never noticed Guts' re-birth symbolism?

It's more like I'm afraid you're seeing something that the author didn't put in the story.

Forest Wraith said:
Femto's incarnation as Griffith is shared by Guts' seed in the form of The Demon Child. In the mythological and paternal sense, this counts as a re-birth experience for Guts

I see. I'm sorry though but I think I'm going to discard this as not valid. The Demon Child was corrupted by Femto in the early stage of pregnancy. I don't see how that hints at a rebirth for Guts at all.

Forest Wraith said:
He and Casca's child is infused or perhaps even consecrated if you like, by Femto

That's not really how I'd put it... It's not like what happened to him was benefic or enviable. Again, don't disregard the terms used in the manga because they don't fit what you want to see in the events.

Forest Wraith said:
Guts, Casca, Femto/Griffith . . . Can we call that a Holy Trinity?

I don't think it'd be pertinent to do so. Like, really not. It's not enough that they're 3 people, you know.

Forest Wraith said:
Guts' very seed is brought into Godhood through Griffith's Incarnation, he has effectively become a self-made God on his own terms.

Not really. First off, Griffith isn't a God. Second, he's not self-made. Third, he used the Demon Child's body as a vessel, but the child himself was almost completely suppressed in the process, as far as we know. I still don't see at all how that would imply even in the most symbolic sense a rebirth of Guts.

Forest Wraith said:
We already know that Guts' encounter with Slann in the Qliphoth is highly sexual in nature

I wouldn't say that it's "highly sexual in nature". It has a strong sexual connotation, but then again everything about Slan does.

Forest Wraith said:
The Beast Swordsman

Please avoid using made-up words like this.

Forest Wraith said:
He does not believe that he is capable of striking her

Actually he attacks her as soon as she appears, but she disables him through superior power. Then he remains stunned until the SK frees one of his arms and he attacks as soon as he gets the chance.

Forest Wraith said:
After escaping from the Qliphoth, Guts is changed

He's very seriously wounded.

Forest Wraith said:
Zodd points out that he is on the road to becoming like Skull Knight. In context, this seems to indicate a wise and mature man who has confidence in his sexual prowess.

Zodd doesn't point out anything, he asks SK what he intends to with Guts. It also clearly isn't related to anything sexual, if you take the time to read the line.

Forest Wraith said:
So, to make it short, Guts emerges from the Womb again in a new form but something is happening: The Astral Wound Slann gave him serves as a womb through which The Beast is born or Incarnated into the World, taking The Berserk's Armor as its vessel.

There are 2 wounds, not one. And the way the armor transforms, along with what is explained, what Guts feels, the imagery represented, etc. doesn't really corroborate what you're saying here. Considering all the previous developments in the story, even going by your idea, it'd be more appropriate to say that the Beast of Darkness is released at that moment, unleashed and overcoming Guts. That's how it's presented to the reader.

Forest Wraith said:
Thus, Guts goes through multiple incarnations of himself, each with unique attributes and aspects. He has become The Warrior with a Thousand Faces, all in a World to himself.

Wow, what an clumsy amalgam of popular concepts this whole post was... It's a shame they're mostly not appropriate and even factually incorrect for some. This makes it all a bit ridiculous, even though some of your assertions wouldn't be too far-fetched if put under more a subtle light. I mean, "The Warrior with a Thousand Faces"? Do you even know what the book you're making a reference to is about?
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Aazealh said:
Whole post

I'm not going for the literal context of the story, I'm pointing out the mythological and psychological concepts that I see. Although I maintain that The Demon Child being incorporated into Griffith's incarnation includes Guts through his child. Keep in mind that individuals are described as being survived by their offspring. It's Guts' flesh and blood being integrated into Griffith's form. I don't see how it isn't at the very least implied.
I know that the mythological elements and the story that Miura is composing are two very different things. Miura is creating his own elements, however, it cannot be denied that he utilizes mythology and psychology from a very fresh and inventive perspective to help craft and articulate his own ideas. That's what I'm trying to get at with my post. The mythology and symbolism is there in a rudimentary form but it's all from a brilliant and completely unique perspective; sorry if it came across as somehow being an attempt to dumb the series down. That's kind of an unfair accusation considering that since Miura hasn't finished the series: We can't know what he will do with the concepts that he has created until the resolution of the story. Furthermore, the concepts that he has considered would arguably lack all significance if he didn't put them in terms that have context and precedent.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Forest Wraith said:
I'm not going for the literal context of the story, I'm pointing out the mythological and psychological concepts that I see.

I understand very well what you're going for, and that's doesn't change anything to what I said. Berserk isn't a myth, it doesn't follow myth standards or conceptions. And with all due respect, whatever psychological analysis you're doing here doesn't seem to be very pertinent to me.

Forest Wraith said:
Keep in mind that individuals are described as being survived by their offspring. It's Guts' flesh and blood being integrated into Griffith's form.

Yes, but in no way does that imply at any point in the story a rebirth on Guts' part. There is simply no difference in Guts before and after Griffith's incarnation. He's not elevated, not different, nor is he even aware of his son's fate. He's completely oblivious to the process and he's not the focal point at all. Nothing in the story points to what you're saying, nothing implies a symbolical meaning of the sort. Which is why what you're saying here is pretty far-fetched, especially in a world where beings are actually, truly reborn. And really, considering the dire fate of the Demon Child, I'm not sure it can be said that he'll survive his father (there's hope since the Moonlight Boy's appearance though).

Forest Wraith said:
I know that the mythological elements and the story that Miura is composing are two very different things. Miura is creating his own elements, however, it cannot be denied that he utilizes mythology and psychology from a very fresh and inventive perspective to help craft and articulate his own ideas. That's what I'm trying to get at with my post. The mythology and symbolism is there in a rudimentary form but it's all from a brilliant and completely unique perspective; sorry if it came across as somehow being an attempt to dumb the series down.

Alright, but as far as I can tell, what you've been saying isn't really related to the mythological elements Miura has inspired himself from in the story. I feel like it's more an overanalysis on your part, with some common themes that you're forcibly slapping on top of events to make them correspond to a certain line of thought. This results in the occultation of the actual subtext and possible symbolic meaning (as not everything has necessarily symbolism attached to it) of the concerned scenes. Yet, like I said earlier, not everything in your post felt wrong to me, there were some parts with which I agreed to some extent, such as the vagina-like apostle in volume 26 and the way Guts came out "a new man" out of it. But you have to realize that it has no real depth other than getting a "neat!" out of the reader when he notices it. It's not something that spans entire volumes and events, and in the case of Guts it's not one of the themes of the story. In fact it's even hard to say whether it's a conscious effort at making a little reference or just a coincidence. Maybe he just drew the monster like that because a big mouth was needed to swallow Guts without chewing him, and he wanted the apostle to look clumsy and a little foolish (explaining why he wasn't damaged in the process)? It's like Schierke seeing an image from the scene where Casca calls Guts a mad dog while trying to free him from the armor's control. It could be a tiny reference to the Beast of Darkness and the Berserk's armor, just like it could be nothing. Those are nice to notice, but ultimately they don't deserve and cannot sustain deep analyses.

Forest Wraith said:
Furthermore, the concepts that he has considered would arguably lack all significance if he didn't put them in terms that have context and precedent.

I disagree. Not everything can have a precedent or an exterior context that is relevant. Even if 2 scenes look alike in some respect, it still doesn't mean they can be analyzed similarly or that they are connected. And I believe that many of the concepts exposed in Berserk have full significance within the context of the story, especially consireding the way Miura goes about his story.

What you've said about Guts is about as relevant to me as it would be to compare Berserk to Oedipus Rex. It's no different from your Holy Trinity reference. Griffith is Oedipus, he made love to his mother (Casca) as Femto, and is trying to slay his father (Guts). All of it because of FATE! Damn, what bullshit is this? :guts:
 
Well
Aazealh said:
Alright, but as far as I can tell, what you've been saying isn't really related to the mythological elements Miura has inspired himself from in the story. I feel like it's more an over analysis on your part, with some common themes that you're forcibly slapping on top of events to make them correspond to a certain line of thought. This results in the occultation of the actual subtext and possible symbolic meaning (as not everything has necessarily symbolism attached to it) of the concerned scenes. Yet, like I said earlier, not everything in your post felt wrong to me, there were some parts with which I agreed to some extent, such as the vagina-like apostle in volume 26 and the way Guts came out "a new man" out of it. But you have to realize that it has no real depth other than getting a "neat!" out of the reader when he notices it...

Those are nice to notice, but ultimately they don't deserve and cannot sustain deep analysis...

... And I believe that many of the concepts exposed in Berserk have full significance within the context of the story, especially considering the way Miura goes about his story.

I rarely disagree with you Aazheal, as I think you have an excellent understanding of the story, but I think that literary criticism need not be bound by authorial intentions. I don't necessarily agree with Forest Wraith's as it sounds like he is trying to fit a lot of his interpretations with Joseph Campbell's genre/monomyth criticism and I don't actually see the rebirth/birth thing as being essential. But I enjoy hearing others critical analysis just the same - maybe this type of conversation should take place on the speculation board.
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
One concession I can make at least for right now: My view that Guts' encounter with Slann in the Qliphoth is a metaphor for sexual conflict and birth symbolism is partially rooted in my being American. Everyone knows how hung-up we are about Sexuality.
 

yesmilord

千年王国
Does everything Miura put in the story have to relate to a biblical or mythological examples?

I'm going to have to agree with Aazealh on this one: several of your inferences are a tad bit far-fetched, and many of them too literal or short-sighted. As for a simpler explanation for all events and symbols in the Berserk universe versus your claims, they just happen to be coincidental. It's hard to separate common themes from a fantasy story. I'm sure Miura's intentions touch on your theories (such as the scene with Slann - she definitely has a temptress persona and the womb/organ/sword symbolism is definitely there), but I highly doubt that he was actually deriving and molding his story from common myth. If you can pull so many different concepts out of your hat and pin them onto each symbol in Berserk, I'd say there's already enough variety to call the series "original" in its own right and not based off any one thing.
 
Hmmmm.... appears my long post was lost (or deleted?) into the annals of internet no-where land. Basically, I liked Forest Wraith's take on Quilpoth. Made a lot of sense to me. Oh, and Miura doesn't have to intend for something to have metaphorical meaning for an element of the story to have it regardless. Of course, that comment sounds less convincing without the 5 extra paragraphs I wrote last time, but I just can't make myself do it again.
 

berserker88

The Raging Demon
Yeah I agree with Aaz your reading to much into this, it isn't Evangelion. This is Berserk its simple, fun, and bad ass just the way everyone likes it.
 
Omega Tom Hanks said:
this isn't Evangelion, this is Berserk its simple, fun, and bad ass just the way everyone likes it.

Berserk only appears simple on the surface. If you give it a more careful reading and do some research, you'll find that it's filled with foils, symbolism, irony, juxtaposition, historical allusion, religious allusion, and analyses on humanity and society in general (especially the middle ages).

Back to the topic:
Yeah, you're over stretching it.
 

Funkmasta Zeph

Finely made wine since 1840
Berserk isn't all that simple.
But its also nowhere near as complex as ForestWraith was tryig to get at.
It seemed more to me that you (FW) were taking a preconceived notion of symbolism and fitting it into Berserk rather than looking for it within Berserk itself.
 

yesmilord

千年王国
Berserk is in no way simple. There are tons of underlying themes and symbols as mentioned by Peregrine_Falcon. It isn't a matter of how complex Forest Wraith was getting at, it's a matter of what material he was comparing it to. Berserk has its own meanings and trying to force those meanings to conform with more common ones just isn't the case in Miura's story (unlike, say, Evangelion, where the story is explicitly based off angels from revelations (don't quote me on that).)
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Omega Tom Hanks said:
This is Berserk its simple, fun, and bad ass just the way everyone likes it.
Hahahaha, even if it's not what you intended, there's no way these guys are ever going to let you live that one down, Mr. Hanks. Better just go back to Wilson on the island.
 
yesmilord said:
Berserk has its own meanings and trying to force those meanings to conform with more common ones just isn't the case in Miura's story

I don't quite get what your saying here. What "common meanings" is Forest Wraith trying to use that don't apply to Berserk?

I thought the "immortality through Guts' child" was a stretch-- mostly because I don't see Guts have a real relationship with that child, or his opinion of himself changing much in re: to the child. But I thought the take on the Quilpoth section had lots of textual support. Also, you have to understand that when you're talking metaphors/symbols sexual prowess= strength and knowledge in the world, it means you're not "impotent", that you know how to use your "sword" and dominate your enemies. That would generally be the reading carried from that type of point of view. There's a whole lot of sex/eroticism in that section-- with the trolls and with Slann and with how she reacts to Guts "slaying" her. Plus the very vaginal/womb-like aspects of the cave and tunnel. One may disagree with the reading there, but its not that far fetched in terms of having textual support. Plus, very soon after that event the armor comes in to play, and with that the beast really gets its "vehicle" to manifest itself more strongly-- so the idea of Slann's psychic wound being a sort of "way in" for the Beast makes some sense.

I'm not saying you're wrong, your post was just so general it was hard to really respond to your concerns.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
jepn30 said:
I think that literary criticism need not be bound by authorial intentions. [...] I enjoy hearing others critical analysis just the same - maybe this type of conversation should take place on the speculation board.

I'll start here by reminding you that Forest Wraith clearly and repeatedly stated that he believed "Miura wrote it in". So basically, none of what you're saying about authorial intent applies to my responses to him, nor to his own posts. That being said, I don't think what you (or anybody else) enjoy or not makes much of a point here. Clearly, literary criticism is a fun activity for scholars, but I'd also argue that it's not much more than that. By considering that authorial intent doesn't matter when partaking in literary criticism, you also imply that it's quite superficial and that down the line, the work being studied doesn't even really matter much. At least not nearly as much as the reader's imagination and ability to pull far-fetched theories out of nowhere. The excuse of finding symbolism that wasn't intended by the author is also a nice way to retroactively avoid admitting a lack of understanding of the story's subtext, especially when the symbolism in question requires that one knowingly ignores some of the symbolism the author actually meant to be found in his work. I don't find it much different from the folks that think Guts is the Hawk of Light, Zodd the king of apostles and that can't get to spell either names correctly.

So yeah, it can be fun and enjoyable to search for obscure connexions and such, but only when all the parties associated are fully aware that it's mostly complete bullshit. Otherwise over time they'll end up convincing themselves that Guts is really a symbolic reference to George Washington.

Forest Wraith said:
One concession I can make at least for right now: My view that Guts' encounter with Slann in the Qliphoth is a metaphor for sexual conflict and birth symbolism is partially rooted in my being American.

Well see, the other problem here for example is that there isn't much hidden symbolism involved in Slan's temptress role, it's all in plain view. It's not like you analyzed the scene to find some deep birth symbolism, she's the one who straightly told Guts the Qliphoth was her womb and that malicious spirits gathered there, etc. It's not where the problem lies, it's in how you perceive the meaning of these elements. Which is also why I went through the trouble of telling you that by not being more attentive to the story in your search for symbols, you were missing a lot of actual subtext and references. It's not just presomptuous, it's also a loss for you as a reader. To the people that think authorial intent isn't important, I reply that it's infinitely more important than their own.

QuestionMark said:
Basically, I liked Forest Wraith's take on Quilpoth.

Maybe before you even make any comment you could learn how to properly spell the words you're using? Especially when they're all over the thread. It's Qliphoth. You know, from the Kabbalah. It's ironic that you seem to think of yourself as having a vast understanding of deep symbolism and such when you don't even have enough reading comprehension to get through a simple forum post and assimilate a few words. How can you hope to be credible?

Omega Tom Hanks said:
Yeah I agree with Aaz your reading to much into this, it isn't Evangelion. This is Berserk its simple, fun, and bad ass just the way everyone likes it.

Well it's not that Berserk is a simple work. In fact it can be really quite complex, but it's just not full of often meaningless and superficial references that were put in for the express purpose of having people try to overanalyze them. In that regard your comparison with Evangelion really hits the point.

QuestionMark said:
I thought the "immortality through Guts' child" was a stretch

Like everyone else, so I guess we're all in agreement on that point.

QuestionMark said:
But I thought the take on the Quilpoth section had lots of textual support.

Not in the way he was implying it. The scene in the manga doesn't support his analysis and the way he was tying everything together. If you're just trying to say that there was a strong sexual connotation to the scene, I think I can say without taking much risk that everyone already knew it and that it's not where the problem lies. But then again, like I said earlier, everything about Slan has a sexual connotation. It's an integral part of her character.

QuestionMark said:
Plus, very soon after that event the armor comes in to play, and with that the beast really gets its "vehicle" to manifest itself more strongly-- so the idea of Slann's psychic wound being a sort of "way in" for the Beast makes some sense.

The wounds are spiritual, not psychic. They affect Guts' astral body, not his psyche. I think you should put more care in the terms you employ. Anyway yes, this is something I myself said and explained to people many years ago. But that's still not what Forest Wraith was talking about, especially put in the context of Griffith's incarnation. If he had just been saying that, everybody would have agreed with him. And to be honest it's a tad obvious to me, the imagery makes it pretty clear during the armor's transformation.
 

yesmilord

千年王国
QuestionMark said:
I don't quite get what your saying here. What "common meanings" is Forest Wraith trying to use that don't apply to Berserk?

I thought the "immortality through Guts' child" was a stretch-- mostly because I don't see Guts have a real relationship with that child, or his opinion of himself changing much in re: to the child. But I thought the take on the Quilpoth section had lots of textual support. Also, you have to understand that when you're talking metaphors/symbols sexual prowess= strength and knowledge in the world, it means you're not "impotent", that you know how to use your "sword" and dominate your enemies. That would generally be the reading carried from that type of point of view. There's a whole lot of sex/eroticism in that section-- with the trolls and with Slann and with how she reacts to Guts "slaying" her. Plus the very vaginal/womb-like aspects of the cave and tunnel. One may disagree with the reading there, but its not that far fetched in terms of having textual support. Plus, very soon after that event the armor comes in to play, and with that the beast really gets its "vehicle" to manifest itself more strongly-- so the idea of Slann's psychic wound being a sort of "way in" for the Beast makes some sense.

I'm not saying you're wrong, your post was just so general it was hard to really respond to your concerns.

I would respond to this, but as always, Aaz beat me to the punch with a more well-versed response.
It's textual support you guys are giving to something that didn't originally have such intentions.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
QuestionMark said:
Thanks for spell checking Aaz. You're always good for that sort of stuff....

You're welcome. I'm good at a lot of things, as you know. So, as I am magnanimous, I will now leave you the opportunity to wash away your sins and disappear honorably by deleting your account yourself.
 
Aazealh said:
You're welcome. I'm good at a lot of things, as you know. So, as I am magnanimous, I will now leave you the opportunity to wash away your sins and disappear honorably by deleting your account yourself.
Nah. If you want to delete my account though, please go ahead and do me the favor.

Later.
 
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