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Griffith

My posts are better.
Manhunter - Like the series that inspired these review sessions, we end at the beginning. I've never been as big a Manhunter fan as Silence of the Lambs, partly because I was introduced to this world through Silence and the books so came to Manhunter later, at which point I was more concerned with how it deviated from Red Dragon than how it brought it to life, or helped pioneer a genre on-screen, without which there'd probably be no Silence of the Lambs as we know it.

As the title suggests, the Graham character and his methods are emphasized front and center here, to the detriment of Reba and even Dolarhyde, who is both more grounded but less explained; here he only wants to be desired. The whole "Red Dragon" plot is basically excised, only given passing reference with another of Blake's Dragon paintings. I never liked that about it, but it does effectively make Dolarhyde more relatable as an average killer than the more elaborate and operatic elements in the book and later adaptations. Tom Noonan is still the only person to portray Dolarhyde that even comes close to having the appropriate physical presence.

But again, this movie is really about Will Graham's and the FBI's techniques hunting a killer more than the killer himself, and the premise of the TV show Hannibal probably owes as much to this film than any other source material, particularly the focus on Graham's unique mind and milestones in his life like the death of Garret Jacob Hobbs, a killer referenced throughout the film that's a major presence on the show. As for Graham's portrayal here, Petersen is good as the moody and emotionally wounded Graham, he's even a dick to Jack Crawford in this version, though the emotion can be a bit over the top, but most of that's in the script, like his fleeing the hospital after speaking to Lecter, or Lecktor in this case. Cox is a much more grounded Lecter too. Less whimsical or supernatural, no mystique, more just a base murderer and sadist, albeit a smart one.

A quick aside, it's actually kind of amazing the later Red Dragon film adaptation basically ignores Graham's trauma and inherent weirdness considering it's the basis of his character and relationships to his family, Crawford, Lecter, Dolarhyde and everything else! If Graham is just a straight arrow, what does Lecter even mean by them being alike or nobody being safe with Graham? I guess he's just talking shit in that version. I don't want to compare these movies too much except to say if you could put the themes of this movie into Red Dragon's framework, you'd have the perfect adaptation of the book. Alas, respectively you end up with the heart of the story in one and the technicalities in the other. The advantage Manhunter has over it or any of the other films, and even the other books, is it doesn't owe anything to the success of Silence of the Lambs or the popularity of Hannibal Lecter and can stand on its own, which is important to remember. That this is its own thing is a distinguishing feature, and it takes liberties with the material to delve deeper into the Graham character as would become a feature of the show based on it.

On its own merits, Manhunter is an atmospheric, stylish, and haunting thriller, that's for better or worse of its time. The set design is striking, though sometimes for the wrong reasons, and the score is cool but some of the musical choices otherwise seem dated, inappropriate or even silly now. It's a very slow moving, introspective film as well, another staple of the 70s and early 80s. Actually, if it wasn't so obviously a Mann film you might be reminded of John Carpenter's early work (my wife picked up on this, and also hates those and this film =). Anyway, I kind of envy Oburi's affection for the film, I love a lot of movies like this too, but only find myself able to appreciate it in a rather bloodless way, feeling conflicted about the influential film it is versus the source material it's not. That's why for me it'll always be good but not great like it is to others.

Hannibal On-Screen Ranks:
1. The Silence of the Lambs - The most exquisite taste.
2. Hannibal (series) - Creatively cannibalistic cuisine.
3. Manhunter/Red Dragon - Selective ingredients, but wasteful.
5. Hannibal (film) - This is your brain on the skillet.
6. Hannibal Rising - You'll want to chew your leg off!

Hannibal Book Ranks:
1. Red Dragon - A hearty, red filet mingon.
2. Hannibal - A deliciously decadent and depraved ham.
3. The Silence of the Lambs - Crown roast of lamb that gets overshadowed by the dish's more popular form.
?. Hannibal Rising - Jack in the Box? Maybe I'll read it, has to be better than the film... Except the author wrote the screenplay too! :magni:
 
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Oburi

All praise Grail
As for Graham's portrayal here, Petersen is good as the moody and emotionally wounded Graham, he's even a dick to Jack Crawford in this version, though the emotion can be a bit over the top, but most of that's in the script, like his fleeing the hospital after speaking to Lecter, or Lecktor in this case. Cox is a much more grounded Lecter too. Less whimsical or supernatural, no mystique, more just a base murderer and sadist, albeit a smart one.
Yea that's what 's so refreshing about watching it now after having seen Silence a half dozen times, which during my last rewatch a few months ago I was surprised at how suffocatingly thick the atmosphere is and how over the top Lector is every second. It's almost a caricature. It's a daring performance that could have ended up being Razzi award worthy bad. Luckily that's not the case, but still there's diminishing returns the further I get from that first viewing.

Alas, respectively you end up with the heart of the story in one and the technicalities in the other. The advantage Manhunter has over it or any of the other films, and even the other books, is it doesn't owe anything to the success of Silence of the Lambs or the popularity of Hannibal Lecter and can stand on its own, which is important to remember
Isn't it actually kind of surprising how competently well done Red Dragon looks given the narrative about Brett Ratner being a douchey hack second rate director for hire dudebro?

On its own merits, Manhunter is an atmospheric, stylish, and haunting thriller, that's for better or worse of its time. The set design is striking, though sometimes for the wrong reasons, and the score is cool but some of the musical choices otherwise seem dated, inappropriate or even silly now. It's a very slow moving, introspective film as well, another staple of the 70s and early 80s. Actually, if it wasn't so obviously a Mann film you might be reminded of John Carpenter's early work (my wife picked up on this, and also hates those and this film =).
Poor girl :ganishka: Is she just a glutton for punishment or is it some twisted mirror situation where you are the Dolarhyde to her Freddy Lounds? "This is Carpenters return to the studio picture system in the 90s. Do you see"?
But yea that's so true and I thought the same thing at one point. It is distinctively Mann though as you said, in the earlier part of his career no less. In an alternate universe I like to think Mann made the ultimate Red Dragon picture somewhere directly before or after Heat and The Last of Mohicans.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Yea that's what 's so refreshing about watching it now after having seen Silence a half dozen times, which during my last rewatch a few months ago I was surprised at how suffocatingly thick the atmosphere is and how over the top Lector is every second. It's almost a caricature. It's a daring performance that could have ended up being Razzi award worthy bad. Luckily that's not the case, but still there's diminishing returns the further I get from that first viewing.
It was actually the opposite experience for me with this most recent viewing, as good or better than ever. The Hopkins performance was better than I remembered too simply because there were many more grounded moments than in my mind from all the times since where he's doing the Bela Legosi's Dracula version in Hannibal or especially Red Dragon. Part of that is the material too, in Lambs he's actually having conversations with Clarice, punctuated by intentionally dramatic turns by a naturally operatic person, and in Hannibal he's at least in hiding and being coy half the time, whereas every interaction in Red Dragon is punched up to be A Classic Hopkins Lecter Scene, and Hopkins dials it up accordingly on top of that, like we're going back to the well of prime Lecter, but it altogether has the opposite effect and undermines the dramatic flow every time.

Isn't it actually kind of surprising how competently well done Red Dragon looks given the narrative about Brett Ratner being a douchey hack second rate director for hire dudebro?
Credit where credit is due, it's a very watchable movie, the screenplay is good, it tells the Red Dragon story effectively and faithfully, the cast is great... I just feel underwhelmed by some of the performances, pretty crucially Norton and Hopkins, and object to some of the ways it's trying to ape Silence of the Lambs. This all makes it feel like less than the sum of its parts, but it's biggest "crime" is being merely a good copy of a great film, or films if you include Manhunter. BTW, I'm also subtracting points from Ratner because I read he apparently wanted Mann to cameo as a cab driver or something... like, fuck off.

Poor girl :ganishka: Is she just a glutton for punishment or is it some twisted mirror situation where you are the Dolarhyde to her Freddy Lounds? "This is Carpenters return to the studio picture system in the 90s. Do you see"?
:ganishka:

"PUT THE GLASSES ON! PUT EM OONNN!!"

She actually liked They Live! I... changed her. Coincidentally, I also show her this clip every year on Mother's Day:


But yea that's so true and I thought the same thing at one point. It is distinctively Mann though as you said, in the earlier part of his career no less. In an alternate universe I like to think Mann made the ultimate Red Dragon picture somewhere directly before or after Heat and The Last of Mohicans.
Begs the question why not just bring Mann back like they did the cinematographer for the 2002 Red Dragon? He probably wouldn't have been on board mimicking Silence's style as much, if that was a prime directive. So then get someone naturally similar and competent shooting that way, or just bring back Demme, Glenn and Shore and truly get the band back together. I mean, I appreciate their efforts to fabricate something that looked as cohesive and continuous with Silence as possible, kind of like The Thing prequel, but why go that far to merely replicate something when they could have had the genuine article?
 
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Oburi

All praise Grail
Credit where credit is due, it's a very watchable movie, the screenplay is good, it tells the Red Dragon story effectively and faithfully, the cast is great... I just feel underwhelmed by some of the performances, pretty crucially Norton and Hopkins, and object to some of the ways it's trying to ape Silence of the Lambs. This all makes it feel like less than the sum of its parts, but it's biggest "crime" is being merely a good copy of a great film, or films if you include Manhunter.

I mean, I appreciate their efforts to fabricate something that looked as cohesive and continuous with Silence as possible, kind of like The Thing prequel, but why go that far to merely replicate something when they could have had the genuine article?
Exactly. I suspect this is even more distracting to older viewers who saw Silence in the theater and loved it. I remember my parents, for example, when watching Red Dragon with me when it first came out (i had already seen it and really liked it at the time and wanted to see their reaction) both left the room early on declaring that it's the same thing as the original. Unaware of the books I'm sure, they just saw it as a shameless cash grab. And I couldn't even blame them. This was at the time when the prequels had proven to be a bust and T3 was crushingly disappointing (we saw Attack of the Clones and T3 in the theater as a family and we left feeling like we had bought a shitty car for too much money from a slimy salesman). Red Dragon seemed like the latest installment in franchise self destruction and they weren't biting.
 
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Griffith

My posts are better.
Red Dragon seemed like the latest installment in franchise self destruction and they weren't biting.
That makes sense, it was a dark time for latecoming prequels, sequels or remakes of classic 80s and 90s properties, though I think Red Dragon is more a victim of being among that crowd rather than a serious perpetrator. Like, it didn't capital F "Fuck It Up" like those other examples, it was just lesser.

Right now I got the crazy idea of a Manhunter/Red Dragon crossover, basically inserting Petersen's scenes in place of Norton's in Red Dragon. It's probably been done. :ganishka:


Terminator Genisys - I've managed to get about 45 minutes into this shitfest in about a week and man is it is painful viewing. Everyone and everything about this is so dumb. Arnold looks pretty good for his age though, in some shots that jawline is still classic Terminator, even if nothing else is. Unfortunately, as silly fun as all the Terminator fights can be, T-800s, a T-1000 etc, they have no gravity and the plot and characters are just an absolute atrocity if you're a Terminator fan. Jai Courtney and The Mother of Conners have no charisma or chemistry to speak of, and don't even resemble the characters in manner or appearance, and if they're making them their own for a new generation, it's as awful dumbshits I'm rooting for the machines to kill. The way they rearrange the series' story is about as fun as it would be watching someone rearrange your mother's face. I'll report back if I ever put myself through the rest of this dogshit.
 
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Anyone else have a Criterion Channel account? I was never able to build a big collection of their expensive sets so I'm loving this service.
Sorry for the late response. I couldn't find where I read the question and just found it! I debated a couple of months ago between this and a MUBI subscription and got burnt out of going too deep into that question haha. And now, making that choice is stuck and for the better part, I think it's one less service to pay for when I'm trying to be mindful of spending money on things. I was leaning towards MUBI for the fact that it would force me to go through their rotation of films that are available to view for the month before they would get replaced/ cycled out.

Speaking of the Alien and Terminator franchises kinda got me asking myself a pretty dumb question, but I asked it from the perspective of "What should I introduce my wife to first?" and ran a list of pros and cons between both. That was on a base level. Taking a step forward, I began to think about which franchise wins if we compared them. Tough question and here's why -

Alien vs Terminator

Both # 1 movies in my mind in their respective franchises. With Alien, it was this horrific aesthetic, design and world that was build that we didn't know of before. With Terminator, a killer robot may be been more believable and there was no new world building per say but the rawness of the film plus that hard hitting soundtrack just pushes it forward to be the best movie in the franchise. Practical effects and all that included.

Aliens vs Terminator 2

Both # 2 movies in their respective franchises and the bigger money makers. Possibly in that tier of "the best sequels" movie list, if we were to have one. Cameron built so well on both worlds and made them more accessible to the audience adding the thrill, excitement and sense of adventure to em. In a true sense, real summer blockbusters. T2 pushed the envelope with the effects.

Then there's the rest. The Terminator franchise became a rehash of T2, working in a very similar format even of how things progressed in the movie. Salvation was a bit different and breaks the mold. T3 I appreciate only for what happens in the end. The stories in every movie became mundane, linear and predictable. Compare that to Alien 3 and well ... I hate to say it ... Prometheus where there was a bit of a risk with the story. Alien 4 had it's horrific moments but it was just fluff and really bad writing in the end with a failed concept. I think I appreciate the risks the franchise tried to take.

So ... one of the scariest creature horrors or one of the baddest killing machines? I think I'd pick the Alien franchise over the Terminator franchise, by a tiny tiiiiiiiny hair.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Speaking of the Alien and Terminator franchises kinda got me asking myself a pretty dumb question, but I asked it from the perspective of "What should I introduce my wife to first?"
Seems simple to me: Alien and Terminator.

Yes, T2 is a better, more milestone movie, but ideally she'll get to it afterward. T1 is great. I checked it out last summer, and it's still a blast. Then I bought the T2 blu-ray and felt like I was 10 years old again. :isidro: And as good as Aliens is, Alien is the essential movie. Same as T2, if she liked the first, she'll check out the second. No harm done.

Edit: Oh, wait, were you asking if you should show her Alien OR Terminator? Well... I think it's a flawed conflict. Just show her the good ones. Don't make her suffer through the bad shit just for the sake of franchise consistency. That's just cruel!
 
Terminator Tiers:

All-Time Classics:

1. T2 - Best movie ever?


2. T1 - 'Nuff said.


Fatally Flawed:

3. TS - Good premise. Great cast. Classic terminator designs. Iffy plot and underwhelming execution.


Bad:

4. TDF - Terminator VI: The Farce Aweakens. Almost put it in the tier above as it rounds out the watchable Terminators, but being respectably, boringly bad is still bad.


5. T3 - Terminator as comedy.


Doesn't Rate:

0. TG - Terminator as tragedy.
So, instead of just rewatching Salvation and Dark Fate I decided to rewatch all the movies in order. Before I rank the movies I should mention that, despite your recommendation, in the end I decided to watch the theatrical versions, as I thought it would be more fair (but I definitely plan on watching the director's cut of Salvation at a later stage).

In any case, my ranking is:

T1: In my book, the best of the bunch without a doubt. A lean, laser-focused movie executed perfectly.

T2: A classic in its own right, but not my favorite. Definitely above the rest by far but, when comparing it to T1, I think bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. For example, I definitely understand that the movie had to slow down in the middle to set up the shift in focus from saving John to preventing Judgement Day but, to me, this has a bit of a negative impact on the movie as a whole (again, this is only relative to the pacing of T1). Also, and I know this is on me 100%, today's me can't stand Edward Furlong's John Connor (on a related note, he's supposed to be ten years old :isidro:).

I think the two movies above will probably stay in those positions permanently, but the other ones, with exception of Genisys, may move up and down depending on my state of mind at any given point. Their current rank:

T3: I agree with your assessment that this is Terminator as comedy. Approaching the movie with this mindset made for a better viewing experience, as I think that the campy stuff is really fun. I do, however, think that the movie does suffer when it tries to get serious. The exception to this, which seconds what Incantation mentioned above, is the ending, which I really like (it has stuck with me from the time I saw the movie in theaters back in the day). I really appreciate that they dared to end on a less-than-positive note.

Dark Fate: I must have been in a really good mood when I saw this movie in theaters because this second viewing was nowhere near as fun an experience as the first one, or perhaps it hasn't been long enough since that first viewing. In any case, I definitely understand and agree with your review a lot more. For me, the saving grace of this movie is Arnold, as I'm a big fan of Carl, but it could be that this is just because I'm getting old and I'm a sucker for this kind of thing (see also, Bad Boys for Life).

Salvation: Iffy plot and underwhelming execution is exactly right. Why was Kyle Reese not killed on the spot when he was identified during processing? Also, I wasn't a big fan of Christian "You're Trashing my Scene" Bale as John Connor (as it turns out, his rant was the only thing I remembered about this movie). The nail in the coffin for me was Kate Connor. To be honest, I don't think it would have made any difference if the character had been removed from the movie altogether.

Genisys: I think your partial review says it all. I'm not sure how far you got into the movie, so I won't mention anything that may be a spoiler (not that I think a spoiler would detract much from the movie), but I think it was a mess.


Regarding Dark Fate, you said:

He also suffers from Salvation Syndrome at the end where instead of instantly, ya know, terminating his quarry, he just wrestles with them a little (more of a tryinator =).
I guess the same could be said of the T-1000 in T2, right? I mean, towards the end of the movie he decided to pierce Sarah's shoulder to have her call John, when he could have just killed and impersonated her. He eventually ended up impersonating her anyway, so that whole shoulder piercing bit didn't make much sense to me.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
T1: In my book, the best of the bunch without a doubt. A lean, laser-focused movie executed perfectly.

T2: A classic in its own right, but not my favorite. Definitely above the rest by far but, when comparing it to T1, I think bigger doesn't necessarily mean better. For example, I definitely understand that the movie had to slow down in the middle to set up the shift in focus from saving John to preventing Judgement Day but, to me, this has a bit of a negative impact on the movie as a whole (again, this is only relative to the pacing of T1). Also, and I know this is on me 100%, today's me can't stand Edward Furlong's John Connor (on a related note, he's supposed to be ten years old :isidro:).
Hard to argue with unless one wants to tout T2's transcendence, but that's probably generational. Young Furlong's John Conner is as iconic as Bart Simpson to me, but my dad actually gives me a different perspective on this, because he loves T1 and he and his T1-loving buddies actually thought T2 jumped the shark with the kid and liquid metal bullshit, "How's it travel through time; can't even follow it's own rules!?" It's like us with these shitty ones, but little did they know what was coming... :ganishka:

I think the two movies above will probably stay in those positions permanently, but the other ones, with exception of Genisys, may move up and down depending on my state of mind at any given point.
For me, I can see Dark Fate moving up, just because it's by Cameron and is definitely striving to regain some respectability. Unlike similar projects though, like The Force Awakens, it just has seemingly no innate purpose or inherent buzz to it, the new characters bring nothing and it's just re-running Terminator 2 or 3 yet again, including an extended lull in the middle, but with the names changed. Ehh.

T3: I agree with your assessment that this is Terminator as comedy. Approaching the movie with this mindset made for a better viewing experience, as I think that the campy stuff is really fun. I do, however, think that the movie does suffer when it tries to get serious.
Yeah, this is a problem for me, because it's not like T2 wasn't funny, but it never sacrificed... the integrity of the mythology it created with T1. This one does, and whether that's rooted in my relative disappoint of it following T2 or it literally being the point Terminator became a joke, I'll never be able to forgive it no matter how generally watchable it may be, even though I recall some of the action being pretty good compared to what was to come, but this movie set the tone for what was to come.

Salvation: Iffy plot and underwhelming execution is exactly right. Why was Kyle Reese not killed on the spot when he was identified during processing? Also, I wasn't a big fan of Christian "You're Trashing my Scene" Bale as John Connor (as it turns out, his rant was the only thing I remembered about this movie).
You just hate John Conner; no wonder you liked Dark Fate! =) I mean, I don't think Bale makes for a great Conner either, but at least he, Yelchin and the cast bring some stature and gravitas to the proceedings, along with Stan Winston's classic Terminator designs. Speaking of, yeah, the Terminator's in this one just grab and throw everybody around instead of just breaking them in half for some reason. Only T1 did this completely right where if the Terminator gets to you, you're DEAD!

The nail in the coffin for me was Kate Connor. To be honest, I don't think it would have made any difference if the character had been removed from the movie altogether.
Oh, for me this is a feature, not a bug. I like that the movie is as far removed from T3 as possible, they don't specify the dates of events, it could be a prequel to T1, a sequel to T2 (it does mention the T-800s are coming early, but the movies are paradoxical by nature), but the appeal to me is it effectively fits as a companion with those first two without specifically acknowledging or necessitating the events of T3, so for all I know Kate Conner is just someone he met after Judgement Day.

BTW, in T3 all of John's dumb high school friends were revealed to be important lieutenants. Is that how we beat the machines originally? Nepotism! =)

Genisys: I think your partial review says it all. I'm not sure how far you got into the movie, so I won't mention anything that may be a spoiler (not that I think a spoiler would detract much from the movie), but I think it was a mess.
I've only gotten to the part where it becomes a bad romantic comedy and then JK Simmons shows up and debases himself. Sad. So far the highlight was the Mother of Conners managed to recreate the shape of Sarah's vintage 80's boobies. That and Arnold's jaw is closest this thing comes to classic Terminator. And they brought up the non-organic time travel hurdle yet still didn't acknowledge it in relation to T-1000. I always thought they could create a flesh cocoon for it or something. =)

Regarding Dark Fate, you said:

I guess the same could be said of the T-1000 in T2, right? I mean, towards the end of the movie he decided to pierce Sarah's shoulder to have her call John, when he could have just killed and impersonated her. He eventually ended up impersonating her anyway, so that whole shoulder piercing bit didn't make much sense to me.
That was more a major Terminator Salvation flaw that Dark Fate was only guilty of at the end. As for the T-1000, he, uh, wasn't functioning correctly at that point, which is more clear in the extended cut, and, uh... you know, come to think of it the T-800 in T1 did dally with Reese a little bit too! Hey man, we're supposed to be bashing the bad ones here. Well fine, did you know Cameron allegedly ripped T1 off from Outer Limits episodes written by Harlan Ellison, and Orion even paid Ellison off and retroactively gave him a credit? Cameron was not pleased. Maybe they should have had Ellison write future Terminator movies after Cameron left.
 
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Hard to argue with unless one wants to tout T2's transcendence, but that's probably generational. Young Furlong's John Conner is as iconic as Bart Simpson to me, but my dad actually gives me a different perspective on this, because he loves T1 and he and his T1-loving buddies actually thought T2 jumped the shark with the kid and liquid metal bullshit, "How's it travel through time; can't even follow it's own rules!?" It's like us with these shitty ones, but little did they know what was coming... :ganishka:
Regarding Furlong, I think the issue might simply be me just getting old. A similar thing happened with Animaniacs, a show I loved when it first came out that I found very difficult to watch when I tried rewatching it a few months ago. Whereas before I thought that the Warners the best, I now mostly think that they behave like dicks (during my rewatch I tended to side more with the people on the other side of their shenanigans).

I think your dad and his buddies raised a good point regarding the T-1000, one which I must confess I hadn't considered. Also, that they think T2 jumped the shark reminded me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHS3ci9H_Uc. It's all relative, I guess.

Yeah, this is a problem for me, because it's not like T2 wasn't funny, but it never sacrificed... the integrity of the mythology it created with T1. This one does, and whether that's rooted in my relative disappoint of it following T2 or it literally being the point Terminator became a joke, I'll never be able to forgive it no matter how generally watchable it may be, even though I recall some of the action being pretty good compared to what was to come, but this movie set the tone for what was to come.
I can definitely see where you're coming from. Have you watched this movie since it came out, or was the damage so big that you'll never watch it again?

You just hate John Conner; no wonder you liked Dark Fate! =)
You know, you might be onto something here. If you were to ask me which John Connor is my favorite (including the Sarah Connor Chronicles, which I did watch way back when) I'd be very hard pressed to give you an answer. I could even go as far as answering T1's :troll:

I mean, I don't think Bale makes for a great Conner either, but at least he, Yelchin and the cast bring some stature and gravitas to the proceedings, along with Stan Winston's classic Terminator designs.
Agreed.

Oh, for me this is a feature, not a bug. I like that the movie is as far removed from T3 as possible, they don't specify the dates of events, it could be a prequel to T1, a sequel to T2 (it does mention the T-800s are coming early, but the movies are paradoxical by nature), but the appeal to me is it effectively fits as a companion with those first two without specifically acknowledging or necessitating the events of T3, so for all I know Kate Conner is just someone he met after Judgement Day.
I think this is an interesting way of looking at it. I guess my problem during my recent rewatch was that I watched T3 and Salvation so close to each other, that I didn't have enough distance to put things in perspective, so to me both Kates were supposed to be one and the same. Having said that, if the movie is intentionally distancing itself from T3, why include Kate at all? It's not like she gets to do anything, really.

BTW, in T3 all of John's dumb high school friends were revealed to be important lieutenants. Is that how we beat the machines originally? Nepotism! =)
:ganishka:

I've only gotten to the part where it becomes a bad romantic comedy and then JK Simmons shows up and debases himself. Sad. So far the highlight was the Mother of Conners managed to recreate the shape of Sarah's vintage 80's boobies. That and Arnold's jaw is closest this thing comes to classic Terminator. And they brought up the non-organic time travel hurdle yet still didn't acknowledge it in relation to T-1000. I always thought they could create a flesh cocoon for it or something. =)
It sounds as though you didn't get to what is, in my opinion, the worst part of the movie (which I won't mention to spare you the pain). If this is indeed the case, I'd probably advise against continuing watching.

That was more a major Terminator Salvation flaw that Dark Fate was only guilty of at the end. As for the T-1000, he, uh, wasn't functioning correctly at that point, which is more clear in the extended cut, and, uh... you know, come to think of it the T-800 in T1 did dally with Reese a little bit too! Hey man, we're supposed to be bashing the bad ones here. Well fine, did you know Cameron allegedly ripped T1 off from Outer Limits episodes written by Harlan Ellison, and Orion even paid Ellison off and retroactively gave him a credit? Cameron was not pleased. Maybe they should have had Ellison write future Terminator movies after Cameron left.

:ganishka:

Even though I don't think it makes much sense, the shoulder piercing bit isn't a real problem for me (I get that they did it for dramatic purposes), it's just that I couldn't help but think of your comment as I was watching that scene in T2, so I thought I'd mention it (though in retrospect I should have probably clarified this).
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
during my rewatch I tended to side more with the people on the other side of their shenanigans
It's the cycle of life, we go from emphasizing with the fellow kids in stories to the fellow adults. But are you calling this guy a dipshit?


Humanity's future, folks.

I think your dad and his buddies raised a good point regarding the T-1000, one which I must confess I hadn't considered.
Oh, it's unassailable, and part of me wishes Cameron had just done the super nerdy flesh cocoon or something, but then that opens the door to weapons and whatever else. Also, the reality, and why I forgive it, is the potential of T-1000 was just too good to pass up or saddle with any more tortured logic, so Cameron just made the elegant decision to completely ignore the rule in T2, which in itself was just a way to hand wave away future weapons when all he meant to say was, "One has to go naked." It's actually a good lesson for those, such as myself, that sometimes get over-concerned with technicalities over practicalities.

I can definitely see where you're coming from. Have you watched this movie since it came out, or was the damage so big that you'll never watch it again?
Under the right conditions I could watch it for fun, but otherwise it holds very little interest or upside for me. I mean, what if it is technically the third best Terminator movie, what then? Then it was over almost 30 years ago, I just didn't know it yet. I mean, that's the true answer, there's only two good Terminator movies, it just sucks that's the case.

You know, you might be onto something here. If you were to ask me which John Connor is my favorite (including the Sarah Connor Chronicles, which I did watch way back when) I'd be very hard pressed to give you an answer. I could even go as far as answering T1's :troll:
Again, Dark Fate's; you like where Furlong went with the character ultimately after all. =)

Having said that, if the movie is intentionally distancing itself from T3, why include Kate at all? It's not like she gets to do anything, really.
I would have cut her completely, but this is the next best thing, and this gave him a life and someone to talk to about Sarah. Of course, if this was a real effort at a definitive future Terminator movie it would have been him talking to an older Reese. I guess be careful what you wish for though since we technically got that in Genisys!

It sounds as though you didn't get to what is, in my opinion, the worst part of the movie (which I won't mention to spare you the pain). If this is indeed the case, I'd probably advise against continuing watching.
When John Conner comes back as a Terminator created by Dr. Who-Net? If that's it they put it in the trailers to try to drum up sagging interest. It didn't work. You were on to John Conner all along though! =)

Even though I don't think it makes much sense, the shoulder piercing bit isn't a real problem for me (I get that they did it for dramatic purposes), it's just that I couldn't help but think of your comment as I was watching that scene in T2, so I thought I'd mention it (though in retrospect I should have probably clarified this).
It's a good observation and a fair point I somehow never gave much thought to. Kidding aside, T-1000 was supposed to be really malfunctioning at that point, as is made more clear in the extended cut, so a decent rationalization can be made he wasn't confident in his ability to convincingly copy her, correctly so as it turns out, or he was just getting genuinely weird by that point, "I know this hurts." Part of the appeal of T-1000 that's more seldom discussed is that rather than making him dispassionately machine-like, as Arnold's T-800 is, Patrick actually infuses him with a scary, psychopathic intensity.
 
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Oh, it's unassailable, and part of me wishes Cameron had just done the super nerdy flesh cocoon or something, but then that opens the door to weapons and whatever else. Also, the reality, and why I forgive it, is the potential of T-1000 was just too good to pass up or saddle with any more tortured logic, so Cameron just made the elegant decision to completely ignore the rule in T2, which in itself was just a way to hand wave away future weapons when all he meant to say was, "One has to go naked." It's actually a good lesson for those, such as myself, that sometimes get over-concerned with technicalities over practicalities.
The right decision was made indeed.

When John Conner comes back as a Terminator created by Dr. Who-Net? If that's it they put it in the trailers to try to drum up sagging interest. It didn't work. You were on to John Conner all along though! =)
:serpico:

Yep, that's exactly it. Was this in the trailers? :isidro: Out of all the crappy stuff done in the sequels, this one was the worst for me.

It's a good observation and a fair point I somehow never gave much thought to. Kidding aside, T-1000 was supposed to be really malfunctioning at that point, as is made more clear in the extended cut, so a decent rationalization can be made he wasn't confident in his ability to convincingly copy her, correctly so as it turns out, or he was just getting genuinely weird by that point, "I know this hurts."
And now I'm interested in checking out the extended cut. :serpico: I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

Part of the appeal of T-1000 that's more seldom discussed is that rather than making him dispassionately machine-like, as Arnold's T-800 is, Patrick actually infuses him with a scary, psychopathic intensity.
I couldn't agree more.
 

Griffith

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Indeed. Not sure why you guys are wasting time talking about the other trash. =)
I'm greedy, I want more T2, I want more good Terminator, or I just want this not to suck!


Yep, that's exactly it. Was this in the trailers? :isidro: Out of all the crappy stuff done in the sequels, this one was the worst for me.
Yep, they just threw it right in there in case there was still someone that wanted to see it. I'm at the reveal right now, awful as you said, and I have to add this guy is a terrible John Conner. The casting in this movie almost seems random, Jai Courtney would make a better Terminator than Kyle Reese.

And now I'm interested in checking out the extended cut. :serpico: I'll see if I can find it somewhere.
More T2 is a good thing, and there's at least one additional scene that adds a new dimension to the film.

BTW, I neglected to ask when you mentioned watching the Sarah Conner Chronicles; where would you rank it on your list among the films?
 

Aazealh

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I'm greedy, I want more T2, I want more good Terminator, or I just want this not to suck!
Watching that video, I was thinking "hey maybe I should watch Salvation after all", ignoring the strange fact a child is wandering around in a Terminator factory. But then Teen Reese shoots the T-800 with his pea gun, and while he feels no recoil, the 500 lbs hunk of metal is flown back 30 yards. So I probably won't watch it. =)
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Watching that video, I was thinking "hey maybe I should watch Salvation after all", ignoring the strange fact a child is wandering around in a Terminator factory. But then Teen Reese shoots the T-800 with his pea gun, and while he feels no recoil, the 500 lbs hunk of metal is flown back 30 yards. So I probably won't watch it. =)
Yeeeeah... That's the downfall of the movie in a nutshell, for every cool idea on screen, there's at least two dumb things that don't make sense. How about the fact the T-800 doesn't just put its fist through Conner, the guy they're still specifically trying to kill, from behind instead of using that opportunity to... push him down? Then it proceeds to beat him up and toss him around some more instead of just immediately bashing in his skull as soon as it can. The kid is literally mute BTW, which is both the best and most exasperating thing about her inclusion. =)
 

Aazealh

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How about the fact the T-800 doesn't just put its fist through Conner, the guy they're still specifically trying to kill, from behind instead of using that opportunity to... push him down?
Yeah I noticed that too haha, it's ridiculous. He also walks reaaaaaal slow for some reason.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Yeah I noticed that too haha, it's ridiculous. He also walks reaaaaaal slow for some reason.
Basically because the original T-800 endoskeleton did, but they skip the part where that's because it had a broken leg. This one can jump around and shit and yet walks intentionally slow and seemingly toys with Conner repeatedly. I'd make the case this Terminator is just a prototype T-800 model 101 John stumbled upon with no particular mission so it's just fucking around anyway, but the whole reason Conner was lured to that factory was to terminate him, so that would itself be a strange oversight. But hey, to be fair, all these added kids and logical inconsistencies started in T2 (Dad and Jim were right!), which just goes to show it doesn't matter if the material is otherwise compelling, or in that case, fucking awesome; you'll suspend your disbelief.

Anyway, this movie doesn't make the cut, though that fight does have some cool shit in it, like when John gets his signature facial scar. Bale is at Batman levels ridiculous at that moment and other times here, which is another source of my desire to like this. =)
 
BTW, I neglected to ask when you mentioned watching the Sarah Conner Chronicles; where would you rank it on your list among the films?
This is a very good question. To be honest, I only remember vague details of the show. I remember liking the premise (Sarah and John on the run after T2) but I also remember the show going a bit crazy towards the end and feeling that it had gone on for too long. I remember liking Lena Heady's Sarah but really disliking the ending. Based on the bits and pieces I can recall, I'd probably put the show above Genisys, but not much higher than that. Did you ever watch the show?
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Based on the bits and pieces I can recall, I'd probably put the show above Genisys, but not much higher than that. Did you ever watch the show?
Oof, no, and probably not going to with that placement. I'd rather rewatch Dark Fate and see if it climbs up my list to take it's rightful place at third without expectations clouding my vision. Then again, I'd rather just rewatch T2.
 
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Seems simple to me: Alien and Terminator.

Yes, T2 is a better, more milestone movie, but ideally she'll get to it afterward. T1 is great. I checked it out last summer, and it's still a blast. Then I bought the T2 blu-ray and felt like I was 10 years old again. :isidro: And as good as Aliens is, Alien is the essential movie. Same as T2, if she liked the first, she'll check out the second. No harm done.

Edit: Oh, wait, were you asking if you should show her Alien OR Terminator? Well... I think it's a flawed conflict. Just show her the good ones. Don't make her suffer through the bad shit just for the sake of franchise consistency. That's just cruel!
She's got to suffer through them all!! Hahaha ... joking aside, I completely agree with the T, T2, Alien, Aliens comparison you made. It's a fascinating discussion because at some point nostalgia takes over. I grew up with T2 playing in the background most of the time at our local movie channel. Aliens would play after 11 PM, same as Predator II because that was when any gore/ partial nudity/ R rated films would play. I'd have to make up some excuse to study late in the night in the TV room to sneak in turning the TV on (on mute) to watch it sitting at the dining table - remote close by so I could turn it off if I heard a door creak. It's only much later in life that I watched Alien or Terminator but man, those two made a huge impression when I did get to them.

Going to have to look for my PS3's power cord so we can watch em on Blu Ray. It's been an exact year since we moved and I haven't had a chance to set things up.

Rambo Last Blood - I hope not, for Rambo's sake that this isn't the last movie because it's terrible and still good? Let me clarify - the story is bland that you wouldn't be interested to watch it at all. I couldn't understand why Sly couldn't add the emotional depth or weight as he has in the last few Creed/ Rocky movies. Very disappointing in that sense. Sly Rambo'd Gran Torino in a very run of the mill/ dumbed down manner. At least it's rated R. There were moments of loss/ sadness that lasted 2 seconds without giving it space to breathe. Whoever edited this movie didn't think it through. That aside, the action in the end is bloody awesome. If it's any consolation, this was maybe an hour and a half with the end making up for all the mess you went through. And that's a shame cos this could've been so much more. I hope there's another Rambo so they can improve on this and able to give the character a better send-off.
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
Finally finished Terminator Genisys - So after taking weeks to watch this in bits and pieces I finally wrapped it up and... It didn't get any better, but was actually somehow underwhelming in its badness in the second half after the John reveal, like it wasn't even hilariously over-the-top crazy bad as the trailers and first half might have you expecting (it's so disappointing even its badness was a letdown =). It just sort of settles into a tepid chase to go destroy Skynet where a bunch of boring CGI-infused action happens. Oh, the plot and character turns are still painfully nonsensical and embarrassing though, don't worry. It ends with Kyle Reese going to have his younger self memorize something in a timeline I'm not even sure exists anymore. The timelines in this movie look like a Houston freeway. Anyway, gawd awful as advertised, a real low point and I'm not sure how we got here.

Updated Termitiers:

1 T2
2 T1

3 TDF - Fuck it, these all suck so might as well.
4 TS - Still want to like this one better. =)

5 T3




666 IN HELL:
TG - The WORST, I think they were trying to do Terminator like some fun, inventive Marvel movie, but it's all wrong.
 
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Walter

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Anyway, gawd awful as advertised, a real low point and I'm not sure how we got here.
"Okay Emilia Clark is hot right now and we need to find her a franchise vehicle that will bring crossover appeal to nerds in the same Venn diagram as Game of Thrones. Whattawegat?"

"How about Terminator?"

"Who'd she play, a sexy Terminator?"

"Nah we tried that, nerds hated it."

"Okay maybe she's Sarah Connor."

"But Emilia's like 12 or something. How is that gonna work? Is this gonna be a pre-T1 teen romance? Wait. Maybe that's the title, PreT1, like "PreTeen?"

"Hmm that might fuck with the timeline- waaaiittt a minute... Get Cameron on the phone, I hope he still has the same PayPal account."
 

Griffith

My posts are better.
"Okay Emilia Clark is hot right now and we need to find her a franchise vehicle that will bring crossover appeal to nerds in the same Venn diagram as Game of Thrones. Whattawegat?"

"How about Terminator?"
Fittingly gross, but I can't blame her because I refuse to believe Clark ever had enough heat to get a major franchise vehicle made. It probably took all her GoT fame just to land the part and bring her customary one dimension to it. She does actually bears some superficial resemblance to young Linda Hamilton, though more Beauty and the Beast era, but this is presumably by accident since their other idea for a young lead was Jai Courtney as Kyle Reese. So, she actually counts as one of the better things about the movie even though under normal circumstances she'd be what's wrong with it! :magni:
 
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