Parents kill daughter with God

NightCrawler

Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8294225.stm

A US couple who prayed rather than seeking medical attention for their dying daughter have been sentenced to six months in jail.

Dale and Leilani Neumann, of Wisconsin, could have received up to 25 years in prison over the 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who was known as Kara.

The 11-year-old died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes.

Judge Vincent Howard ordered the couple to serve one month in jail each year for the next six years.

One parent will serve the term in March and the other in September.

The judge told the Neumanns this would give them time to "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this".

He added that they were "very good people, raising their family, who made a bad decision, a reckless decision".

He added: "God probably works through other people, some of them doctors."

In addition to the custodial sentence, the Neumanns were also put on 10 years' probation, as part of which they must allow a nurse to examine their two youngest surviving children at least once every three months, and must immediately take their children to a doctor in case of any serious injuries.

Prosecutors said the couple had recklessly killed the youngest of their four children by ignoring clear symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk.

They said the couple had a legal duty to take their daughter to a doctor but had instead relied totally on prayer for healing.

Kara died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed. The emergency services were only called after she stopped breathing.

In their defence, the parents said they believed healing came from God, and that they had not expected their daughter to die as they prayed for her.

Jay Kronenwetter, Mr Neumann's lawyer, was asked in a BBC interview if he thought his client had got off lightly.

"My client sees spiritual treatment as the proper medicine and I suspect the people who want harsher punishment see Western medicine as the proper medicine, I guess therein lies the difference," he told the BBC World Service.

"My clients just happen to have a belief that is very outside of our social norm."

The couple are appealing against their convictions."

-----

During the sentencing hearing, Leilani Neumann, 41, told the judge her family is loving and forgiving and has wrongly been portrayed as religious zealots.

"I do not regret trusting truly in the Lord for my daughter's health," she said. "Did we know she had a fatal illness? No. Did we act to the best of our knowledge? Yes."

Dale Neumann, 47, read from the Bible and told the judge that he loved his daughter.

"I am guilty of trusting my Lord's wisdom completely. ... Guilty of asking for heavenly intervention. Guilty of following Jesus Christ when the whole world does not understand. Guilty of obeying my God," he said.

The Neumanns held each other as Howard sentenced them, a Bible on the table nearby and their three teenage children sitting behind them in the front row of the courtroom.

-----

Is there any first world country that has people acting like this? Including judges?




mao.gif


Religion is poison.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Wow, what a story. I think this is the first I've heard of someone being given prison time for this kind of thing. My grandmother is part of the Christian Science movement and this reminds me of how she tried to stop my parents from taking me to the doctor when I was sick. She's since calmed down a lot and doesn't try to push her beliefs on others, but I know she still believes quite strongly in the healing power of prayer. Poor little girl. :sad:
 

NightCrawler

Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Rhombaad said:
Wow, what a story. I think this is the first I've heard of someone being given prison time for this kind of thing.

What? That makes it even more baffling. And you're surprised because they're spending one month in jail for negligence? Oh my fucking Jebus.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
NightCrawler said:
What? That makes it even more baffling. And you're surprised because they're spending one month in jail for negligence? Oh my fucking Jebus.

What the fuck is your problem? I was just expressing amazement because this was the first time I'd heard of someone being put in jail because of something like this. I think they absolutely deserve it and I wasn't condoning it one bit. Chill out.
 

Dar_Klink

Last Guardian when? - CyberKlink 20XX before dying
NightCrawler said:
Religion is poison.
More like stupidity is poison. I'm sure her parents would've found another way to neglect her with their ignorance even if they weren't SUPER STUPID CHRISTIANS. :schierke:
 

NightCrawler

Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Darklink286 said:
More like stupidity is poison. I'm sure her parents would've found another way to neglect her with their ignorance even if they weren't SUPER STUPID CHRISTIANS. :schierke:

Religion, stupidity and ignorance usually go hand in hand.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
NightCrawler said:
Religion, stupidity and ignorance usually go hand in hand.

Must be hard living in Portugal for you... Isn't a large majority of the population Catholic?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Sad story, and scary what's coming out of these people's mouths in this day and age. Still, I think religion is a scapegoat, for humanity's ills and virtues, as good or bad as how people use it, and a built in excuse for that usage.

Aazealh said:
Must be hard living in Portugal for you... Isn't a large majority of the population Catholic?

I'm sure there's also a contingent of angry youths out there, just guessing. =)
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
グリフィス said:
Sad story, and scary what's coming out of these people's mouths in this day and age. Still, I think religion is a scapegoat, for humanity's ills and virtues, as good or bad as how people use it, and a built in excuse for that usage.

I agree. Need to carry out some atrocities against humanity? just say the magic word...religion. But as you say Griffith there is the good with the bad, its just too bad more wars have been carried out in the name of God than anything else.

I'll try and keep shut now.
 

NightCrawler

Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Aazealh said:
Must be hard living in Portugal for you... Isn't a large majority of the population Catholic?

Yes, but they're not fanatic or preachy and usually don't even go to church or practice catholicism besides the usual holidays. Oh, and they believe in science first.

What baffles me in this case is why weren't the parents charged with negligent homicide? Why isn't there separation between law and religion in a first world country?

グリフィス said:
Sad story, and scary what's coming out of these people's mouths in this day and age. Still, I think religion is a scapegoat, for humanity's ills and virtues, as good or bad as how people use it, and a built in excuse for that usage.

I must say, looking at a few thousands of years of human history, it's a pretty good excuse.
 

Johnstantine

Skibbidy Boo Bop
NightCrawler said:
What baffles me in this case is why weren't the parents charged with negligent homicide? Why isn't there separation between law and religion in a first world country?

Well, that in itself is a tricky subject. The couple believes what they were doing was the right thing. It's their belief to do so. Anything against that, and they're going against their beliefs. The judge and jury, however, have to take this into account without actually violating their freedom of religion rights. Just because they don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Would you want to be punished for something you did while believing so strongly in what you were doing? Having a girl on her deathbed and still believing the power of prayer will cure her is a pretty strong indication that they are strong believers in whatever they follow.

Yeah, sure, they may have gotten off lightly. But that's just my opinion. I don't believe what they believe, so it's easy for me to point an accusatory finger. Honestly, I think they're fucking idiots for not seeking medical attention. But, that's just my opinion.

Lady justice is blind, but sometimes I wish she would open up her fucking eyes.
 

NightCrawler

Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
Johnstantine said:
Well, that in itself is a tricky subject. The couple believes what they were doing was the right thing. It's their belief to do so. Anything against that, and they're going against their beliefs. The judge and jury, however, have to take this into account without actually violating their freedom of religion rights. Just because they don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Would you want to be punished for something you did while believing so strongly in what you were doing? Having a girl on her deathbed and still believing the power of prayer will cure her is a pretty strong indication that they are strong believers in whatever they follow.

For me that is no different than a psycopath who has a twisted moral sense. Therefor should be regarded as mental illness.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
CHRISTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!! :mozgus:

NightCrawler said:
Yes, but they're not fanatic or preachy and usually don't even go to church or practice catholicism besides the usual holidays. Oh, and they believe in science first.
It's not like every person in the US is insane to the point of doing things like this. There are plenty of Christians that wouldn't do anything like this.

What baffles me in this case is why weren't the parents charged with negligent homicide? Why isn't there separation between law and religion in a first world country?
This has more to do with the judge believing the parents really had the best interest of their child in mind. Do I agree? No, fuck'em for all I care. Another thing you have too keep in mind is that he didn't want to leave the other living children with out parents.
 
Not that its important, but James Hetfield of Metallica mother had died the same way when he was in his late teens. Years later his father in his old age refused treatment too. The stuff like this drives me crazy. :mozgus:
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Speaking of which, he wrote a song about it that couldn't be more apropos to this topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXKkvJbg3ko&fmt=18

The God That Failed

Pride you took
Pride you feel
Pride that you felt when you'd kneel

Not the word
Not the love
Not what you thought from above

It feeds
It grows
It clouds all that you will know
Deceit
Deceive
Decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail
Follow the god that failed

Find your peace
Find your say
Find the smooth road on your way

Trust you gave
A child to save
Left you cold and him in grave

It feeds
It grows
It clouds all that you will know
Deceit
Deceive
Decide just what you believe

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail
Follow the god that failed

I see faith in your eyes
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail
Follow the god that failed

Pride you took
Pride you feel
Pride that you felt when you'd kneel

Trust you gave
A child to save
Left you cold and him in grave

I see faith in your eyes
Never you hear the discouraging lies
I hear faith in your cries
Broken is the promise, betrayal
The healing hand held back by the deepened nail
Follow the god that failed
Follow the god that failed
Broken is the promise, betrayed
Betrayal
 

ghadrack

Not a llama or your momma!
This is pretty baffling to me. I mean, do they just pray about it when their car breaks down, or do they take it to a mechanic? Would they use a bandage if they got a bleeding wound? Would they run from a bear chasing them to preserve themselves? :magni: :chomp:

Sucks for the kid that died. I'm glad the state is stepping in to try to salvage the other kids, too bad they've probably been programmed with lots of defective nuggets of mis-information.
 

Okin

The Ultimate Battle Creature
Just a small note, Christians aren't the only crazy ones. My grandmother had mental illness for most of her adult life, and she had some cooky solutions of her own. My father told me that when he was younger, my grandmother had him buy a chicken for what was essentially voodoo rituals. My father is a physician and my grandmother had been treated with modern medicine since she first contracted her disorder, but she still insisted that killing a chicken and giving it's head to some old dude with braids would ensure her health. I'd like to think she wised up by the time I was born, but I don't for sure. I'm really just glad she was of sound mind at least medically when she passed, but I also sometimes think my father puts to much faith in religion also.
 
Rhombaad said:
Wow, what a story. I think this is the first I've heard of someone being given prison time for this kind of thing. My grandmother is part of the Christian Science movement and this reminds me of how she tried to stop my parents from taking me to the doctor when I was sick. She's since calmed down a lot and doesn't try to push her beliefs on others, but I know she still believes quite strongly in the healing power of prayer. Poor little girl. :sad:

Here is some christian science for ya: http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/animesoc/2006/06/06/neon_genesis_evangelion_2.jpg

Seriously if they ever prove (a) god exists that means science supports it and you'll definitely see DARPA get a piece of that action and militarize it.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Soli said:
Here is some christian science for ya: http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/animesoc/2006/06/06/neon_genesis_evangelion_2.jpg

Haha, nah that's just a popular anime from the 90s. :guts:
 
Rhombaad said:
Haha, nah that's just a popular anime from the 90s. :guts:

NGE was loosely based on the book of Revelations, the author/creator of the series said it was one of his driving points for making it heh.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Soli said:
NGE was loosely based on the book of Revelations, the author/creator of the series said it was one of his driving points for making it heh.

This post should be removed :troll:

but seriously, not this again.
 
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