Small theory about the current Godhand's origins

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thought I'd see what people thought of this idea: that all the members of the current godhand were tortured as humans.

This is based on the character designs of the godhand and how Miura incorporated the Griffith's mask into Femto's body. Obviously, the mask itself is based on the helmet Griffith wore into battle when he was at the height of his powers. But the fact that it never comes off of post-torture Griffith alters the symbol into something else, a marker of what's been taken away from him. The inclusion of the helmet in Femto's head then becomes a clever double metaphor: he has become the all powerful 'falcon,' persona, but he has (presumably unknowingly) also incorporated the legacy of his trauma into his new body. He is the damage that was done to him, the trauma and pain that led him to this place, and now, really, that's all he'll ever be.

Moving onto the other members: there's the implication that Void is the wise man that Gaiseric had tortured. Void's character design, unlike Femto's, can easily be interpreted even without the wise man story as a body that was tortured.
x8FhCb8.png

The eyes sewn shut, the exposed skull and brain almost like he was skinned--not a big stretch to see him as choosing this form in order to take the horrors that were done to him and make them a source of power.

So that leaves the three others. To be totally honest, this theory came to me when I saw these images of Slan...
rSssgYL.png
1vr4x3R.png

...and randomly thought, 'that looks really uncomfortable." Jokes aside, though, the corset and collar do seem like they could be creative torture devices, not to mention the hooks on the ends of the wings.

And then there's Ubik's glasses.
ByGrRwD.png

Which sure look like something used to torture someone. Those things on the edge are (correct me if I'm wrong) hooks digging into his skin.

Conrad's design also has some features that look rather tortured:
CBeQeWK.png

The four fingers, the distorted face almost held in by the suit as if he would spill out, like his body doesn't have a human form without it--strikes me as the possible result of torture.

So I'm curious, what do people think? I don't think this is likely to be confirmed in the future, or have pretty much any relevance to the plot, but I thought it was cool and wanted to share. And I'd love opinions on this question: Would the more inhuman forms of the previous godhand pretty much prove this theory wrong?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Thought I'd see what people thought of this idea: that all the members of the current godhand were tortured as humans.

My first thought is that it wouldn't be very original. We know that Griffith was tortured, and it's quite possible that Void was as well. That's OK because there's a symmetry to their lives and that of Gaiseric and Guts. However, making it a universal rule would cheapen it in my opinion.

The inclusion of the helmet in Femto's head then becomes a clever double metaphor: he has become the all powerful 'falcon,' persona, but he has (presumably unknowingly) also incorporated the legacy of his trauma into his new body. He is the damage that was done to him, the trauma and pain that led him to this place, and now, really, that's all he'll ever be.

This feels like an overinterpretation to me. Griffith's falcon helmet was symbolic during his life as a man, and when he ascended it became a part of him. But looking at Femto's design, you can't tell that he was tortured. He's all muscular and covered in a strange chitinous material that's a living part of him (including the "helmet"). Furthermore, I really don't think Femto's character is meant to be defined by the damage done to his previous body. Femto is not at all defined by the pain and trauma Griffith endured during that year in the dungeon. He is a being of pure ambition, cold and malevolent. Depicting him as "damaged" is a total misinterpretation as far as I'm concerned. He was damaged before his rebirth, but becoming a member of the God Hand erased all that. By the way, God Hand is written as two separate words.

Also, this isn't a metaphor, double or otherwise. A metaphor is saying "a pale crescent hung in the dark sea above as the hero made his way towards his destiny." The pale crescent is the moon, the dark sea is the night sky. Those are metaphors.

And I'd love opinions on this question: Would the more inhuman forms of the previous godhand pretty much prove this theory wrong?

I would say yes, but I don't think it's even really needed. Slan's choker and corset aren't indicative of torture to me, and Ubik and Conrad also have strange bodies that I don't necessarily associate with it either.
 
My first thought is that it wouldn't be very original. We know that Griffith was tortured, and it's quite possible that Void was as well. That's OK because there's a symmetry to their lives and that of Gaiseric and Guts. However, making it a universal rule would cheapen it in my opinion.
I wasn't suggesting it was a rule, more like a link between the original humans who became members of the current God Hand--people who were subjected to a disproportionate level of punishment as humans, and thus were willing to go as far as a mass sacrifice to gain power. Like I said, it's a curiosity, not a likely plot point, so fair enough not liking the idea!

This feels like an overinterpretation to me. Griffith's falcon helmet was symbolic during his life as a man, and when he ascended it became a part of him. But looking at Femto's design, you can't tell that he was tortured. He's all muscular and covered in a strange chitinous material that's a living part of him (including the "helmet"). Furthermore, I really don't think Femto's character is meant to be defined by the damage done to his previous body. Femto is not at all defined by the pain and trauma Griffith endured during that year in the dungeon. He is a being of pure ambition, cold and malevolent. Depicting him as "damaged" is a total misinterpretation as far as I'm concerned. He was damaged before his rebirth, but becoming a member of the God Hand erased all that. By the way, God Hand is written as two separate words.
Thanks for the God Hand correction. For the rest, how do I put this--of course I agree that Femto is a, "being of pure ambition, cold and malevolent." I don't mean to suggest that an element of his character, as Femto, is that he's damaged or traumatized or any nonsense like that.

But Femto, like every apostle and member of the God Hand, wouldn't exist without the previous damage done to him in his human life. I wouldn't say that he himself, as he is now, is "damaged," (that would imply conflict or emotion that clearly doesn't exist in him), but he couldn't have come into existence without the damage that was done to him when he was a person. This form is a direct consequence of Griffith's trauma and the choices he made in reaction to that trauma. That's what I meant by saying "he is the damage."

Also, this isn't a metaphor, double or otherwise. A metaphor is saying "a pale crescent hung in the dark sea above as the hero made his way towards his destiny." The pale crescent is the moon, the dark sea is the night sky. Those are metaphors.
Blast, you're right, I misused the term in the original post. I stand corrected. It's a double symbol, not a double metaphor.



I can't resist and hope this isn't super weird: I'm a big fan of the Skullcast, love the historical contextualization and character interpretations you do, thanks for the awesome podcasts!
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I wasn't suggesting it was a rule, more like a link between the original humans who became members of the current God Hand--people who were subjected to a disproportionate level of punishment as humans, and thus were willing to go as far as a mass sacrifice to gain power. Like I said, it's a curiosity, not a likely plot point, so fair enough not liking the idea!

Yeah I just think it would cheapen their individual stories if it were a systematic occurrence.

I don't mean to suggest that an element of his character, as Femto, is that he's damaged or traumatized or any nonsense like that.

Alright. That's what it sounded like you were saying to me, so I'm glad we cleared that up.

But Femto, like every apostle and member of the God Hand, wouldn't exist without the previous damage done to him in his human life. I wouldn't say that he himself, as he is now, is "damaged," (that would imply conflict or emotion that clearly doesn't exist in him), but he couldn't have come into existence without the damage that was done to him when he was a person. This form is a direct consequence of Griffith's trauma and the choices he made in reaction to that trauma. That's what I meant by saying "he is the damage."

Hmm. I think it's more simple and less restrictive to say the life he led as a human brought him to that point. Because what compelled him to become Femto isn't just the physical damage he endured during that year in jail, it's first and foremost his dream, followed by all the ups and downs he experienced while chasing it. For the Count, it was the anguish he felt because his wife betrayed his trust. For Rochine it was her shitty family. In each case the context of their life is determinant. This is tied to a larger discussion about causality and how the Idea of Evil manipulates people's lives.

I can't resist and hope this isn't super weird: I'm a big fan of the Skullcast, love the historical contextualization and character interpretations you do, thanks for the awesome podcasts!

Thank you, I'm glad you like them! :guts:
 
Hmm. I think it's more simple and less restrictive to say the life he led as a human brought him to that point. Because what compelled him to become Femto isn't just the physical damage he endured during that year in jail, it's first and foremost his dream, followed by all the ups and downs he experienced while chasing it. For the Count, it was the anguish he felt because his wife betrayed his trust. For Rochine it was her shitty family. In each case the context of their life is determinant. This is tied to a larger discussion about causality and how the Idea of Evil manipulates people's lives.
Okay, I see how a statement like, "he is the damage, and that's all he'll ever be" is too reductive. I'm not sure whether the psychological symbolism I'm talking about and the larger context of causality would be in conflict, though. While causality created the context of the situations the characters act from, the endgame (as far as we've seen) comes down to a form of psychological anguish or trauma resulting in an overwhelming desire that activates a Behelit, correct?

I don't think interpreting Femto's head as a symbol (among other things) of his reaction to trauma and the way it ended his character development is moving away from the text all all, really. One of several effects of Griffith always wearing the helmet after his rescue is a visual, 'middle stage,' between Griffith as a complex, conflicted character and Griffith as Femto. Before the torture he only wore the helmet in battle. After the torture, its constant presence mediating our only real insight into Griffith (his eyes) is a constant reminder of his trauma's effects, and that same visual element becomes a permanent part of his skull after his transformation. So while Femto's head signals the triumph and power of the falcon persona that pursues Griffith's dream, visually there's a secondary meaning. The same parts of his face are visible before and after his transformation. Griffith wouldn't even be the only character to have a transformed body directly tied to trauma from his human life: Rochine's desire to be an elf was in direct reaction to the trauma of her shitty family, and ultimately ended up highlighting how willingly following causality's path sort of, 'sealed her own doom,' having no one and dying alone just like Peekaf.

But the idea of trauma being symbolized or referenced by the transformed body is not, of course, a principle that would make sense being applied to the Count, and would take some borderline ludicrous over-interpretation to apply to Ganishka! As would extrapolating the common thread of Void and Femto both having been tortured as humans to suggest that the other three God Hand members were also tortured. Theory conceded!
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not sure whether the psychological symbolism I'm talking about and the larger context of causality would be in conflict, though. While causality created the context of the situations the characters act from, the endgame (as far as we've seen) comes down to a form of psychological anguish or trauma resulting in an overwhelming desire that activates a Behelit, correct?

Well, you said "Femto [...] wouldn't exist without the previous damage done to him in his human life." It's not a matter of conflicting with the wider picture so much as being a limited perspective to focus oneself on, especially since it plays no role whatsoever in his persona or figure after the rebirth. His fall from grace, much like his rise to glory, was orchastred in order to bring him to a point where he would be willing to sacrifice his men to become another being. His entire life as a man served that purpose. Trying to relate his year of torture to Femto but not the rest of his life, as if they were disconnected, is misleading and unsupported by the story as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think interpreting Femto's head as a symbol (among other things) of his reaction to trauma and the way it ended his character development is moving away from the text all all, really.

I think it is absolutely an overinterpretation that isn't supported by how his character is presented in the story. He is introduced as confident, stoic and evil. Nothing in his physical figure evokes trauma to me, much less a "reaction to trauma", whatever that means. Void's face looks physically scarred for example, but not Femto's. And no comparison has been made in the manga between the mask he wore in jail and his figure as Femto.

Griffith-Femto.jpg


One of several effects of Griffith always wearing the helmet after his rescue is a visual, 'middle stage,' between Griffith as a complex, conflicted character and Griffith as Femto. Before the torture he only wore the helmet in battle. After the torture, its constant presence mediating our only real insight into Griffith (his eyes) is a constant reminder of his trauma's effects, and that same visual element becomes a permanent part of his skull after his transformation.

I'm thoroughly unconvinced by what you're saying. We see him with that "iron mask" on for a volume and a half before the Eclipse, and it's not the main focus. He's also pretty conflicted during that time in his feelings towards Guts, his remaining troops or even himself. In fact, this is what I would put an emphasis on: Griffith's relationship with Guts, since it's what he actually reflects on both in prison and at the crucial moment, when he decides to offer up his men as sacrifices.

Beyond that, by overfocusing on the helmet to insist that Femto's form is representative of "trauma", you're omitting that what was most damaging to his dream wasn't being disfigured but being unable to lift an arm or even stand up. That's what the actual story focuses on: Casca's reaction to his helplessness, Wyald exposing the truth to everyone, Griffith's little dream of his life as an invalid. Not the scars on his face. Does the mask have a symbolic role? Of course. But I think here you're just trying too hard to find a justification for your original assertion about Femto's figure evoking torture.
 
(This is getting to be a little much and I apologize for taking up so much of your time, so I directly responded to specific points you made but you can totally just skip to the end where I summarized)
Well, you said "Femto [...] wouldn't exist without the previous damage done to him in his human life." It's not a matter of conflicting with the wider picture so much as being a limited perspective to focus oneself on, especially since it plays no role whatsoever in his persona or figure after the rebirth. His fall from grace, much like his rise to glory, was orchastred in order to bring him to a point where he would be willing to sacrifice his men to become another being. His entire life as a man served that purpose. Trying to relate his year of torture to Femto but not the rest of his life, as if they were disconnected, is misleading and unsupported by the story as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not trying to relate his year of torture to Femto to the exclusion of the rest of his life, so, cool. I didn't mean to suggest that Femto exists solely because of the trauma--but it's not like Griffith would have made the deal if he weren't helpless as a result of trauma. And even then, that tied into all sorts of other threads in his life. So, I think we aren't actually arguing over anything there?

I think it is absolutely an overinterpretation that isn't supported by how his character is presented in the story. He is introduced as confident, stoic and evil. Nothing in his physical figure evokes trauma to me, much less a "reaction to trauma", whatever that means. Void's face looks physically scarred for example, but not Femto's. And no comparison has been made in the manga between the mask he wore in jail and his figure as Femto.
It's not something that is a part of how he is introduced in the story, it's only knowable as an aspect of the character design after we know the whole situation. It's part of the context added in the Golden Age. That's not just any old iron mask, it's clearly modeled after the helmet he wore into battle. Helmet->Mask->Skull. Wouldn't saying that the Femto's freaky falcon head only represents the falcon persona, as if the previous volume and a half of Griffith constantly wearing the mask was a disconnected part of the story, be as misleading as saying the head only represents trauma (which it clearly doesn't)?
And can't emphasize this enough: I would never argue that this knowledge of symbol's mixed history is in any way meant to make Femto seem remotely sympathetic. No. No. No, no, no, no. No.

We see him with that "iron mask" on for a volume and a half before the Eclipse, and it's not the main focus.
We only ever see him through the mask, and our only window into what's going on in Griffith head is his face, which we are only ever seeing through the mask. The mask works as a reminder of how Griffith exists in the wreckage of his dreams AND a visual signal to the readers that the Griffith's transformation into Femto from the Black Swordsman is approaching.

He's also pretty conflicted during that time in his feelings towards Guts, his remaining troops or even himself. In fact, this is what I would put an emphasis on: Griffith's relationship with Guts, since it's what he actually reflects on both in prison and at the crucial moment, when he decides to offer up his men as sacrifices.
I mean, yeah, of course that's the most important part, but that itself isn't wholly extricable from his trauma and its consequences. I'm very much not trying to say that it was 'all the trauma' behind him making the sacrifice.

Beyond that, by overfocusing on the helmet to insist that Femto's form is representative of "trauma", you're omitting that what was most damaging to his dream wasn't being disfigured but being unable to lift an arm or even stand up.
Hope you won't dismiss this out of hand, I'm genuinely curious and wanted to ask this after listening to the Skullcast on that volume: is it possible Griffith actually doesn't know whatever thing about his face freaked out Judeau and Guts? They reacted really intensely, more than seems justified compared to the scars we see in his dream (like Guts saying, "This can't be Griffith," after seeing his face). Griffith also repeatedly demonstrates that he isn't fully aware of the damage done to his arms and legs, even though he can see them and the torturer straight-up said what he'd done, so isn't it plausible he actually doesn't know exactly what happened to his face?

Okay, to the point and my original statement.
The inclusion of the helmet in Femto's head then becomes a clever double metaphor: he has become the all powerful 'falcon,' persona, but he has (presumably unknowingly) also incorporated the legacy of his trauma into his new body. He is the damage that was done to him, the trauma and pain that led him to this place, and now, really, that's all he'll ever be.
Already conceded I used metaphor wrong and that saying he is the damage that was done to him was an overstatement. And it would obviously be silly to say that in his original appearance to readers he was in any way meant to evoke trauma.
But with knowledge of the full context, the helmet/mask/head continuity signals how causality leads Griffith around and the trauma is a major (not the only) part of that. So, I'm not asserting that his figure is meant to primarily evoke torture, just that one thread of the complex stuff in that image is his destructive reaction to having been tortured.

being unable to lift an arm or even stand up. That's what the actual story focuses on: Casca's reaction to his helplessness, Wyald exposing the truth to everyone, Griffith's little dream of his life as an invalid. Not the scars on his face. Does the mask have a symbolic role? Of course. But I think here you're just trying too hard to find a justification for your original assertion about Femto's figure evoking torture.
The helmet shape evolves from a symbol of evil power, to a symbol of, 'good Griffith,' power, to a symbol of that helplessness, to a symbol of evil power. It obviously doesn't evoke torture without knowing the full context of its evolution through those stages, and even then, it only secondarily evokes any torture at all.
So, I didn't mean to assert that Femto's figure evokes torture without any context, or that even with context it's meant to primarily evoke torture.



Feel like I'm getting lost in the weeds, here, so to summarize the text basis of the head as a symbol (secondarily) of trauma's legacy: There's a visual continuity to Griffith's helmet/mask/head. When we see Griffith for the first time in the Golden Age, he's got the helmet on and evokes Femto. He takes it off and rarely wears it again. Then he's wearing a mask that looks like the helmet all the time in the buildup to the eclipse, with shots of his face only ever shadowed through the mask. Then he emerges and it's the same parts of his face visible, only it's not a mask anymore. He literally became the mask, which is also the helmet, so it doubly symbols power and rejected powerlessness.

I wouldn't argue it's meant to symbolize anything to Griffith/Femto himself or to anyone else, but that it's a visual element signaling to readers how Griffith's helplessness (which is itself linked inextricably to his issues with Guts, to his overconfidence, to his dream, etc.) and trauma led him to become an unspeakable monster. Which, considering the analogies that can be drawn between Femto and the Beast of Darkness (the Griffith podcasts were really cool, thanks for that), is a not unimportant aspect of the story as a whole.

So, real quick, things I'm not saying: Femto is clearly not a traumatized or remotely sympathetic character; Griffith didn't make the sacrifice just because he was tortured, it was of course his whole life of which torture and trauma were one important part; the head/helmet are not meant to evoke torture without the context of the Golden Age; this is a visual signal to readers, not to the characters; the main symbolism behind the mask/helmet/head is clearly the falcon's power and only secondarily anything to do with trauma.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not trying to relate his year of torture to Femto to the exclusion of the rest of his life, so, cool.

It's what your previous posts conveyed though, which is why I responded that way. :shrug:

So, I think we aren't actually arguing over anything there?

Please don't take it the wrong way, but what's happening here is that you don't want to let go of your interpretation, but also don't want to straight up argue that I'm wrong. So you're replying to defend a point supporting a theory you've already rescinded while simultaneously saying what I said is what you meant all along. This is a somewhat typical development for threads like these, believe it or not. I don't really mind but yeah, it's a huge waste of time (for both of us).

It's not something that is a part of how he is introduced in the story, it's only knowable as an aspect of the character design after we know the whole situation.

You were arguing that Femto's head is a symbol of trauma, "a marker of what's been taken away from him". But it's clearly not how his character was designed, and it's never conveyed that way in the story.

That's not just any old iron mask, it's clearly modeled after the helmet he wore into battle.

I'm aware.

Wouldn't saying that the Femto's freaky falcon head only represents the falcon persona, as if the previous volume and a half of Griffith constantly wearing the mask was a disconnected part of the story, be as misleading as saying the head only represents trauma (which it clearly doesn't)?

Would it be equally misleading? Not really. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that Femto's head is designed after the falcon helmet because that was a symbol of Griffith as the white falcon. Just like the contraption they put on him in jail was itself designed after the iconic helmet that symbolized the white falcon.

We only ever see him through the mask, and our only window into what's going on in Griffith head is his face, which we are only ever seeing through the mask. The mask works as a reminder of how Griffith exists in the wreckage of his dreams AND a visual signal to the readers that the Griffith's transformation into Femto from the Black Swordsman is approaching.

Actually, it hides his face so his disfigurement is left to the imagination, because that's more horrible than seeing it. Also, we get a lot of introspective thoughts from Griffith during that section of the story, more so than in any other actually. So it's just plain wrong to say his face is "our only window into what's going on in his head".

I mean, yeah, of course that's the most important part, but that itself isn't wholly extricable from his trauma and its consequences. I'm very much not trying to say that it was 'all the trauma' behind him making the sacrifice.

No one said him being tortured for a year had no impact on his life. But you were saying Femto's character design clearly reflects that torture, which isn't true.

Hope you won't dismiss this out of hand, I'm genuinely curious and wanted to ask this after listening to the Skullcast on that volume: is it possible Griffith actually doesn't know whatever thing about his face freaked out Judeau and Guts? They reacted really intensely, more than seems justified compared to the scars we see in his dream (like Guts saying, "This can't be Griffith," after seeing his face). Griffith also repeatedly demonstrates that he isn't fully aware of the damage done to his arms and legs, even though he can see them and the torturer straight-up said what he'd done, so isn't it plausible he actually doesn't know exactly what happened to his face?

Hard to say. He must have known it was badly damaged, but maybe not to what extent.

But with knowledge of the full context, the helmet/mask/head continuity signals how causality leads Griffith around and the trauma is a major (not the only) part of that. So, I'm not asserting that his figure is meant to primarily evoke torture, just that one thread of the complex stuff in that image is his destructive reaction to having been tortured.

Visually, I don't think anything in Femto's character design is meant to evoke torture. Like I said above, that doesn't negate the role his year of suffering had in pushing him towards the edge.

The helmet shape evolves from a symbol of evil power, to a symbol of, 'good Griffith,' power, to a symbol of that helplessness, to a symbol of evil power.

Well that's your interpretation. One could say it simply evokes Griffith/Femto. I mean we're talking about a shape here.

When we see Griffith for the first time in the Golden Age, he's got the helmet on and evokes Femto. He takes it off and rarely wears it again.

Sorry but I wouldn't say that he "rarely wears his helmet".

it's a visual element signaling to readers how Griffith's helplessness and trauma led him to become an unspeakable monster.

I disagree.

the analogies that can be drawn between Femto and the Beast of Darkness

I really don't think it's relevant to compare Femto to the Beast of Darkness.
 
Please don't take it the wrong way, but what's happening here is that you don't want to let go of your interpretation, but also don't want to straight up argue that I'm wrong. So you're replying to defend a point supporting a theory you've already rescinded while simultaneously saying what I said is what you meant all along. This is a somewhat typical development for threads like these, believe it or not. I don't really mind but yeah, it's a huge waste of time (for both of us).
A look behind the curtain I guess! I mean, to put aside the question of whether I'm being neurotic (which hell, wouldn't be the first time), I don't think saying, "the theory I put forward as a whole originally is wrong," is the same thing as saying, "all the evidence I based the theory on is nonsense."
I'm certain I never intended to convey that the only significant thing being evoked with the current character design was the original Griffith's trauma--I mean, that's an obvious visual falsehood as the shape isn't associated with the torture out of context--although I can see how the overly dramatic flourish at the end of my original comments on him can be interpreted that way. I did say it was, "double," not "above all else," and that, "the fact that it never comes off him post-torture alters it into something else," so I don't think I originally meant, "it was meant to be this from the very beginning," and changed when you pointed out that was dumb.
Reading back, I do think you've ended up pushing me to thinking the trauma was less important in the character design than I thought at original posting, but I certainly hope I never considered it the only thing going on there.

Quote Femto's head as a symbol (among other things) of his reaction to trauma and the way it ended his character development...
visually there's a secondary meaning.

(Previous section edited to remove an irrelevant paragraph and add self-quotes with bold at the bottom for evidence that I was not trying to suggest that one and only one thing was going on here.)

I still think the continuity of helmet->mask->head is significant! But in the end of course that's all down to interpretation. I certainly hope I'm never such a lazy reader of Berserk as to think any of the character logic happening in that section of just has one thing behind it...

Edit: so that's my evidence that I'm not falling into this cognitive trap, But all that being said, I am now second-guessing my own thoughts at the time of original writing hard since of course you'd be able to recognize patterns like that, so maybe there was some dumbassness behind what I originally wrote. In which case, I apologize for wasting your time.

You were arguing that Femto's head is a symbol of trauma, "a marker of what's been taken away from him". But it's clearly not how his character was designed, and it's never conveyed that way in the story.
Did not mean to suggest is was only that, but I can see how that statement--which I remember I wrote intending to be melodramatic about the tragedy of Griffith's ugly choices--could be interpreted as being sympathetic to Femto (barf, that's what I get for getting excited and hitting publish on a first draft, I will crawl into a hole now). I am certain that I meant it not as tragic in the sense of, "oh poor Griffith lost so much," but more in the sense of, "oh, goddamn Griffith doesn't understand that he can't, 'really,' ever evolve past the worst shit in his life now and he's still making it everyone else's problem.' Both of which are pure subjective interpretations!

Actually, it hides his face so his disfigurement is left to the imagination, because that's more horrible than seeing it. Also, we get a lot of introspective thoughts from Griffith during that section of the story, more so than in any other actually. So it's just plain wrong to say his face is "our only window into what's going on in his head".
I mean, I think that choice can do more than one clever thing. And I stand corrected on saying his face is our only window into his thoughts--it is the main window for the majority of the section though, including super significant moments like the Wyald fight and his attempted suicide. Still can't quite bear to let go of the last shred of my interpretation I guess...

Sorry but I wouldn't say that he "rarely wears his helmet".
Only into battle, right? Which was a minority of the time?

Would it be equally misleading? Not really. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that Femto's head is designed after the falcon helmet because that was a symbol of Griffith as the white falcon. Just like the contraption they put on him in jail was itself designed after the iconic helmet that symbolized the white falcon.
Genuinely curious because I respect your opinion: so do you think the visual continuity I've been nattering on about, the 'middle zone' between Griffith and Femto where he's always in the mask, is pretty much just a function of the plot without symbolic significance for his overall development?

Ah, you don't have to answer that, I've taken enough of your time--I appreciate your engaging with me, even when what I said came across to you as extraordinarily stupid!
 
Last edited:

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I don't think saying, "the theory I put forward as a whole originally is wrong," is the same thing as saying, "all the evidence I based the theory on is nonsense."

No, of course not.

"oh, goddamn Griffith doesn't understand that he can't, 'really,' ever evolve past the worst shit in his life now and he's still making it everyone else's problem.'

Eh, I think such considerations are absent from Femto's mind. The being he is now feels no guilt or regret, and likely views his downfall and the subsequent sacrifice as steps he had to go through to fulfill his destiny.

Only into battle, right? Which was a minority of the time?

"Rarely" doesn't mean "a minority of the time", it means it's very uncommon and seldom seen.

Genuinely curious because I respect your opinion: so do you think the visual continuity I've been nattering on about, the 'middle zone' between Griffith and Femto where he's always in the mask, is pretty much just a function of the plot without symbolic significance for his overall development?

No, I think there is an argument to be made for it. However I'd say it's on the more interpretive side of things, by which I mean that Miura doesn't emphasize it as a progression from Griffith to Femto in the story. So it's an interpretation among others, as opposed to an established fact. Needless to say, that segment of the story is very important for Griffith's development in general.
 
I think what he is trying to say is that Griffith would not have became Femto if he was not tortured. I think that the mutilation of his body is what directly caused his dream to be destroyed. I was curious, do you agree? I do not think Griffith would have sacrificed them all if he wasn't disfigured and badly injured to the point of no recovery.

Then again I think this is why you brought up the fact that this is apart of a larger discussion about causality

Edit:

No one said him being tortured for a year had no impact on his life. But you were saying Femto's character design clearly reflects that torture, which isn't true.

Visually, I don't think anything in Femto's character design is meant to evoke torture. Like I said above, that doesn't negate the role his year of suffering had in pushing him towards the edge.
You answered my question actually.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I think what he is trying to say is that Griffith would not have became Femto if he was not tortured.

No, that wasn't the point we were discussing. But to answer your question, it's pretty clear that Griffith's fall from grace and year of torture was a key part of the process that led him to sacrifice his comrades. Much like his rise to glory! Because the fact he got so close before it was all abruptly destroyed made it so much more compelling for him to accept that deal. As you remarked, that's why I mentioned the broader influence of causality, because Griffith's life was shaped from beginning to end in a way that would lead him to become Femto. It wasn't just a last minute twist.

I think that the mutilation of his body is what directly caused his dream to be destroyed.

Well it's a combination of things. His social status was also destroyed and one could argue it also greatly lowered his chances of ever achieving it. And of course he was psychologically damaged. Beyond the damage to his body, his altered state of mind was the determining factor for him to accept that Faustian bargain... and even then, Ubik (with Conrad's help) had to give him a final push.
 
And of course he was psychologically damaged. Beyond the damage to his body, his altered state of mind was the determining factor for him to accept that Faustian bargain... and even then, Ubik (with Conrad's help) had to give him a final push.

I just wanted to bring up something off topic but straight forward, I used to think of Griffith as all evil and selfish but when I read the story a second or third time I noticed Ubik really had to encourage Griffith to trample the corpses, move forward without regret, to not apologize for his ambition. I realize that he is not all bad. Would you agree? And do you think that his benevolent actions now that he is incarnated are purely for the sake of manipulating the people with ill intentions, or could it be that he is fulfilling his dream thoroughly and even though he is evil if his ambition was to do good things prior to his rebirth as a God Hand he will do it, either way?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I just wanted to bring up something off topic but straight forward, I used to think of Griffith as all evil and selfish but when I read the story a second or third time I noticed Ubik really had to encourage Griffith to trample the corpses, move forward without regret, to not apologize for his ambition. I realize that he is not all bad. Would you agree?

I think his character is portrayed in a very nuanced manner during the Golden Age arc, and clearly he isn't an evil person, no. He's driven, very ambitious, and ruthless at times, but he also has ideals and cares about people. Even after the torture we see him being conflicted. But like I said, his entire life was manipulated so that he would become Femto, and he did. Despite the circumstances, there is no excusing that, and from that point on there is no return for his character.

And do you think that his benevolent actions now that he is incarnated are purely for the sake of manipulating the people with ill intentions, or could it be that he is fulfilling his dream thoroughly and even though he is evil if his ambition was to do good things prior to his rebirth as a God Hand he will do it, either way?

Femto is a different being from who Griffith was as a human. Guts tells Rickert as much in volume 22. Femto is straight-up evil and his current nice guy act is just a charade. There is however still a duality to his character, albeit a very different one, because he now coexists with Guts and Casca's son.
 
I think his character is portrayed in a very nuanced manner during the Golden Age arc, and clearly he isn't an evil person, no. He's driven, very ambitious, and ruthless at times, but he also has ideals and cares about people. Even after the torture we see him being conflicted. But like I said, his entire life was manipulated so that he would become Femto, and he did. Despite the circumstances, there is no excusing that, and from that point on there is no return for his character.



Femto is a different being from who Griffith was as a human. Guts tells Rickert as much in volume 22. Femto is straight-up evil and his current nice guy act is just a charade. There is however still a duality to his character, albeit a very different one, because he now coexists with Guts and Casca's son.
I understand he is different I don't think I worded this whelp enough. I meant that Femto even said he won't betray his dream. Femto in my eyes is all of Griffiths raw ambition plus evil energy. Forgive me for comparing the two, but in the same way someone loses their humanity to become a vampire in buffy, someone loses their humanity in becoming an apostle or God Hand member in Berserk. Apostles from my understanding are just people infused with evil energy through Blood Magic making them astral beings, demonic astral beings. The reason I bring this up is because Femto is carrying out a dream he had when he was once Griffith. So, you answered my question you see it as a charade but I was wondering if you saw any part of it as genuine because I do believe Griffith did want to be good to the people of the nation under his rule. If it is a charade i wonder if the place where the dead 'become one' is the vortex of souls. That would be a horrible fate! I enjoyed the conversation. If you want to wrap this up with a reply I would love to read it.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Forgive me for comparing the two, but in the same way someone loses their humanity to become a vampire in buffy, someone loses their humanity in becoming an apostle or God Hand member in Berserk.

I'm going to go ahead and say that's not the same thing. Also, becoming a member of the God Hand isn't like becoming an apostle.

Apostles from my understanding are just people infused with evil energy through Blood Magic making them astral beings, demonic astral beings.

Apostles aren't astral beings since they keep their corporeal bodies. However their soul is indeed infused with evil power, which in turn grants them supernatural powers and twists said corporeal body. That's not called "blood magic" though (there's no official name for it yet).

I was wondering if you saw any part of it as genuine

No, I don't. Femto is beyond redemption.

If it is a charade i wonder if the place where the dead 'become one' is the vortex of souls. That would be a horrible fate!

Well yeah, that's what he was referring to. Although to be fair he might have been talking about the ocean of souls more generally, not just the Vortex (which is where the souls with bad karma go).
 
Apostles aren't astral beings since they keep their corporeal bodies. However their soul is indeed infused with evil power, which in turn grants them supernatural powers and twists said corporeal body. That's not called "blood magic" though (there's no official name for it yet).

No, I don't. Femto is beyond redemption.

He is beyond redemption. I was confused. I thought the apostles human form was corporeal but the transformation was entirely astral. So, they are similar to the branded in the sense they both exist between the material and astral realm, just in a different way. Does my idea make sense, even if its incorrect can you see how I interpreted this that way?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom