The Influence of Freud and Hegel in Berserk

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Two theories I’ve come across on the internet pertaining to the major ideas that have influenced Berserk are that Freud and Hegel’s ideas play a significant role in the inspiration for the Idea of Evil and the Godhand. On superficial examination Freud’s ideas seem the most obvious i.e. in connection with how it was the collective unconscious-will of humanity, that led to the Idea of Evil’s creation (and which continues to sustain its existence). However, I think that there is a deeper connection with Freud’s ideas and also those of Hegel, particularly his absolute idealism.

Freud’s work seems to have a deep connection to the Godhand. The Idea of Evil relays to us via Femto that it came into existence through humanities collective desire for reasons that transcend human means. The idea of evil is largely the result of blurred negative emotions. All of these suggest that the idea of evil and the Godhand are related to the human ID which exists in the unconscious mind. The ID according to Freud is primarily composed of unbridled desires and instincts. Humans become apostles, or in rare case Godhand members, by effectively removing their superego which moderates the unconscious mind, and thus, removing all compassion, morality, and crucially human norms of reason. The Idea of Evil satisfies the human desire for “reasons for suffering”, “reasons for the absurdity of existence” etc., by reifying an abstract concept of evil i.e. by making evil beings exist in the concrete world as causal agents—this is where Hegel comes into the picture.

Hegel’s absolute idealism seems to be the motivating force behind the idea of evil and particularly Femto who is literally referred to as “the Absolute”. Hegel’s absolute idealism sought to overcome the subject-object distinction by eventually making a subject’s ideas become part of reality e.g. Femto establishes his own kingdom by means that appeared “absurd“ to the gurus on Elfheim—by changing the physical world in its entirety. The Godhand members all had incredibly strong desires that originated in their IDs, this resulted in them being unable to live within their human means, Femto’s unification of the astral and physical worlds serves as a way of making a subjects ends i.e. the things desired, become a part of the physical world, thus overcoming the subject-object distinction. On my account, the Godhand desires to make all humans overcome their superego’s and become ruled by their ID’s—in short, ruled by their dreams; this is the idea of evil truly believes it is satisfying humanities deepest wishes— to be free from human limitations and to embrace the narcissism of their IDs. Furthermore, by using an authoritarian governing body (the Godhand) the Idea of Evil can enforce a strict determinism that brings everybody and everything in line the will of those who have the strongest desires.
Somewhat tangentially, Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy is another work that (at least, I believe) has significant connections with Berserk. In particular, the character of “Judge Holden” has significant parallels with Femto: see the appended clip wherein the Judge talks about war, to see striking similarities between the Judge and Femto: The Judge on war

P.s. sorry about the rambling and borderline unintelligible prose; I’ve tried, with this edit, to make it more perspicuous.
 
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I believe that another central influence on the Idea of Evil and the Godhand is the work of the Marquis de Sade (Sade, hereafter), and in particular Sade’s response to misanthropy. I hope I can show how Sade’s black heart is in keeping with the Godhand’s ideology.
Sade believed that human’s are primarily driven by pleasure, and we tend to achieve the greatest pleasures by inflicting suffering and death. Sade’s sees all humans as having fundamental natural drives towards selfishness, lust, and cruelty—these impulses are innate and ubiquitous, an inescapable part of our biology. On the other hand, pro-social traits such as — benevolence, empathy, or altruism—are artifacts of indoctrination into arbitrary social conventions; as a consequence pro-social traits are constantly in tension with our vicious natural drives and, in general, the vicious natural drives outcompete our artificial virtues. Furthermore, as Sade sees it, it is no accident that the people who rise to the top of our societies are precisely those who have a penchant for violence, cruelty, and manipulation; the ones who behave with empathy or benevolence are just suckers, by behaving virtuously they have made themselves weak and open to exploitation. In addition, by Sade’s lights, pro-social traits are created by those in power to help maintain their own power and dominion, and reduce the chances of those not in power rebelling. Ultimately Sade views prosocial traits as impeding our pursuit of pleasure—for Sade this is the cardinal sin; we should pursue our own pleasures no-matter what the cost, and the best way to achieve this, is by oppressing and exploiting others—this is Sade’s cardinal virtue.

In conclusion, Sade’s response to the evils of humanity is not to criticise the game, but to play to win (a task he relishes). By recognising that humanity is cruel, violent, and selfish, the rational response is to cultivate these traits in oneself; if one can’t escape one’s human shortcomings, then I might as well embrace them. I trust that it is clear how the Marquis de Sade’s philosophy is incredibly similar to the philosophy that guides the Godhand and the Idea of Evil.
 
Isn't collective unconscious a more junghian concept than freudian one?

Also, I believe that the highest philosophical influence in Berserk is probably Nietzsche. The Übermensch, the will of power, being beyond good and evil, the overall nichilism and the eternal return and the cyclical nature of things are all deeply nietzschian concepts that fits very well the Berserk story.
 
Oh my God.... how did the id, ego and superego in relation to the Idea of Evil never hit me... I'm completely jealous of everyone who recognized this connection of evil energy being imbued into a being as the removal of the superego. Good job.

Isn't collective unconscious a more junghian concept than freudian one?

Also, I believe that the highest philosophical influence in Berserk is probably Nietzsche. The Übermensch, the will of power, being beyond good and evil, the overall nichilism and the eternal return and the cyclical nature of things are all deeply nietzschian concepts that fits very well the Berserk story.
The collective unconscious is similar to the ID. you are right, the collective unconscious is used more in literature than anything else. It is usually in relation to a home or something with three levels that represent the mind.
 
For me, one of the top draws in Berserk has always been the philosophical influences in it. I definitely think that there are more than a few sources that have contributed to the world building. I’m most familiar with Jung, myself, so My bias has me seeing endless references there (ego deaths, possession, collective unconscious, synchronicity, etc.), but I love hearing your take on it! I haven’t seen a ton of reflection of the Godhand/Idea of Evil’s goals from this angle before, and it has me intrigued.

Let me just say I barely know anything about Freud or Hegel, so my understanding is limited to your post (for now lol). Please steer me back on course if I got any of this wrong.

So if I am understanding this correctly, the goal of the IoE/Godhand is to remove humanity’s superego (social morality?) that they may meld into a new, unified phase based on unbridled collective desire (ID). It’s not a world domination plot in the usual sense for our villains. Humans would stop questioning their misfortune, and be ruled by want (not individual want, but subconcious/shared/IoE want) l. They would follow the Godhand as they would bring the collective desire to fruition. If this is correct, I definitely agree. To me, the rise of Falconia has been leading up to the eventual destruction of disparity and individuation.

However, Berserk makes it clear that stagnation as well as rejection/ignorance of any part of your humanity has horrendous results. Therefore, would you agree that a philosophy based in acknowledgement, integration and eventual transcendence would be the counter to the Godhand’s one of erasure and subjugation?

Based on all the growth of Guts and his JRPG party, I feel like the narrative supports this. I really love how we get to see all these different perspectives illustrated through the myriad of characters, and I appreciate when people point out ones that I definitely would have missed otherwise. So thanks for this insightful post! Now to delve into all the pieces you’ve cited so I can understand them better. :D
 

Aazealh

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Two theories I’ve come across on the internet pertaining to the major ideas that have influenced Berserk are that Freud and Hegel’s ideas play a significant role in the inspiration for the Idea of Evil and the Godhand.

I don't think there's much ground to say Freud or Hegel's ideas played a significant role in inspiring the creation of either the God Hand or the Idea of Evil. The God Hand was inspired by the Cenobites from Hellraiser. The Idea of Evil is a shadowy figure about whom we know little, since the episode of the manga in which Griffith encounters it has been removed from the story and is non-canon. But of course, this is precisely the material you're referring to here.

On superficial examination Freud’s ideas seem the most obvious i.e. in connection with how it was the collective unconscious-will of humanity, that led to the Idea of Evil’s creation (and which continues to sustain its existence).

Like someone said above, Jung is the one that came up with the concept of collective unconscious, not Freud. But that doesn't really matter, since the Idea of Evil doesn't talk about a "collective unconscious", but a collective consciousness. Those are different notions with different meanings. They're written quite differently in Japanese. Blunders like this are why people need to understand the importance of translations.

The Idea of Evil relays to us via Femto that it came into existence through humanities collective desire for reasons that transcend human means.

That's not what it says. It says humans desired "reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge". Thus a god was born, to provide reasons for the arbitrary happenings of the world.

The idea of evil is largely the result of blurred negative emotions. All of these suggest that the idea of evil and the Godhand are related to the human ID which exists in the unconscious mind.

Actually, "idea" here is a Greek word and it refers to Plato's theory of ideas. The Japanese word used for it means "origin", so it literally means the "origin of evil" (to be even more specific, it's like the source of a river). And "evil" in this context means "evil power". It's the same evil that transform humans into apostles. Not simply a moral concept but a form of magic power.

Humans become apostles, or in rare case Godhand members, by effectively removing their superego which moderates the unconscious mind

That is not at all what is shown and explained in the manga. When someone becomes an apostle, their soul is imbued with evil power, which in turns transforms their corporeal body. For members of the God Hand, just check what happens to Griffith during the Eclipse, it's explained almost step by step. It doesn't involve any of the psychological concepts you talk about here. A lot of what you say in your post is just guesswork. It's not a problem in and of itself, but you really ought to take a less authoritative stance here, because what you say is mostly inaccurate.

Generally-speaking, even when a concept is mentioned in the story (like that of "ego", which is talked about a few times), it doesn't immediately mean it's a deep influence that has ties to many elements of the story. For example, there's a reference to Nietzsche when Schierke summons the Lord of the Rotten Roots. Does that imply something deeper? No. Just like the use of the name Qliphoth doesn't imply any connection to the Kabbalah.

The Idea of Evil satisfies the human desire for “reasons for suffering”, “reasons for the absurdity of existence” etc., by reifying an abstract concept of evil i.e. by making evil beings exist in the concrete world as causal agents—this is where Hegel comes into the picture.

No, it is the "causal agent" itself, the manipulator of the principle of causality. Mind you, this is more of an Eastern concept (inga), related to karma.
 
I don't think there's much ground to say Freud or Hegel's ideas played a significant role in inspiring the creation of either the God Hand or the Idea of Evil. The God Hand was inspired by the Cenobites from Hellraiser. The Idea of Evil is a shadowy figure about whom we know little, since the episode of the manga in which Griffith encounters it has been removed from the story and is non-canon. But of course, this is precisely the material you're referring to here.
I’m aware that the Godhand was inspired by the Cenobites from Hellraiser.
Like someone said above, Jung is the one that came up with the concept of collective unconscious, not Freud. But that doesn't really matter, since the Idea of Evil doesn't talk about a "collective unconscious", but a collective consciousness. Those are different notions with different meanings. They're written quite differently in Japanese. Blunders like this are why people need to understand the importance of translations.
I didn’t say that Freud came up with the idea of a “collective unconscious”, nor was I implying that the “collective consciousness” (as it occurs in correct translations) is unconscious; I was speculating, rather, that Freud’s ideas about the unconscious mind, particularly the ID, may have influenced the notion of a “collective consciousness” that occurs in Berserk. For instance, the collective consciousness in Berserk is formed from “blurred negative emotions” that individual humans experience—including desires, fear, anguish, hatred, anger, etc.—all of which, seem consonant with Freud’s ideas pertaining to the ID.
That's not what it says. It says humans desired "reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge". Thus a god was born, to provide reasons for the arbitrary happenings of the world.
This is what I meant by “means”, as in means-end relations: human means e.g. our cognitive limitations, limit us from being able to understand our ends e.g. “reasons for our destiny”, or “reasons for why our life is absurd” etc. Again, I’m speculating—I’m not being overly rigid and literal—you’re failing to appreciate the context of my points, that is, I deliberately construed it as “means” as this is what my argument was tending towards.
Actually, "idea" here is a Greek word and it refers to Plato's theory of ideas. The Japanese word used for it means "origin", so it literally means the "origin of evil" (to be even more specific, it's like the source of a river). And "evil" in this context means "evil power". It's the same evil that transform humans into apostles. Not simply a moral concept but a form of magic power.
How is this contrary to my points. I’m not contesting that the the word ‘idea’ as it figures in Berserk originates with Plato’s work nor am I contesting the Japanese sense of the word, nor am I contesting that it figures in Berserk as a form of power; I was speculating about the connection that may exist between Freud’s ID and the notion of evil, including its supernatural power that it confers to Apostles and the Godhand.
That is not at all what is shown and explained in the manga. When someone becomes an apostle, their soul is imbued with evil power, which in turns transforms their corporeal body. For members of the God Hand, just check what happens to Griffith during the Eclipse, it's explained almost step by step. It doesn't involve any of the psychological concepts you talk about here. A lot of what you say in your post is just guesswork. It's not a problem in and of itself, but you really ought to take a less authoritative stance here, because what you say is mostly inaccurate.
I’m sorry, but do you not understand the meaning of the term ‘speculation’? and have you not scrutinised my speculation carefully? I’m speculating about possible influences on Berserk; I’m not, and have made no pretensions of, contesting the verbatim text. To consistently and systematically misinterpret my sentences—In such a literal, and quite frankly, absurdly prescriptivist manner—is baffling. “A lot of what you say in your post is just guesswork”—replace guesswork with speculation, and you get—no shit! In all fairness maybe I should’ve included a disclaimer about, I don’t know, this being speculation and not a reworking of the manga; everyone else who commented seems to have understood this—why haven’t you?
Generally-speaking, even when a concept is mentioned in the story (like that of "ego", which is talked about a few times), it doesn't immediately mean it's a deep influence that has ties to many elements of the story. For example, there's a reference to Nietzsche when Schierke summons the Lord of the Rotten Roots. Does that imply something deeper? No. Just like the use of the name Qliphoth doesn't imply any connection to the Kabbalah.
Again, I’m tempted to reply with the old cliché: you must be fun at parties.
No, it is the "causal agent" itself, the manipulator of the principle of causality. Mind you, this is more of an Eastern concept (inga), related to karma.
I’m left wondering if you understand the basics of human interaction, because going by the fact that many people have noted this about you without change in your behaviour, you seem to have an incredibly obnoxious ‘holier than thou’ attitude toward anyone who doesn’t conform to your exalted view of Berserk. You stifle discussions and the faintest whiff of dissent by—again—imploring that you have the real, ultimate vision of Berserk crystallised in your fat head. I’d like to think I’m missing something, but judging by your history on this site, you seem to be gloriously lacking in self-awareness, and as a consequence hoping for better behaviour from you seems like wishful thinking.
 

Aazealh

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I’m aware that the Godhand was inspired by the Cenobites from Hellraiser.

Then you must realize the stuff you mentioned had nothing to do with it. Which makes me then wonder why you wrote about it despite knowing it not to be true.

I didn’t say that Freud came up with the idea of a “collective unconscious”, nor was I implying that the “collective consciousness” (as it occurs in correct translations) is unconscious; I was speculating, rather, that Freud’s ideas about the unconscious mind, particularly the ID, may have influenced the notion of a “collective consciousness” that occurs in Berserk.

That seems like a big stretch, but regardless, since this isn't about the unconscious mind but instead about a collective consciousness, what you said is simply irrelevant. The Id as Freud defined it just doesn't correspond at all to what the Idea of Evil describes in episode 83.

For instance, the collective consciousness in Berserk is formed from “blurred negative emotions” that individual humans experience—including desires, fear, anguish, hatred, anger, etc.—all of which, seem consonant with Freud’s ideas pertaining to the ID.

Sorry but you're mistaken. In that line what the Idea of Evil talks about is what surrounds it, which is specifically the dark side of the "ocean of thoughts" that it equates to a collective consciousness. Mind you, in other (canon) parts of the story, it's described as an ocean of souls, which I think is important to keep in mind. Anyway, the Idea of Evil is essentially dwelling in hell, which we know in the world of Berserk as the Vortex of Souls. That big whirlpool is part of a wider ocean where human souls go after they die. There, they are divided according to their karma, and evil souls go to the vortex. The Idea of Evil is the product of the dark side of that ocean of souls.

All of this to say that the wider collective consciousness of mankind is formed of more than negative feelings. We just don't know the details of it outside of the vortex. Anyway, beyond that, the Id as conceived by Freud is more about instincts that are present right from birth, mostly bodily needs like hunger, thirst or sexual desire. I don't find that strongly related to what's described in episode 83, especially since we're talking about dead souls here.

This is what I meant by “means”, as in means-end relations: human means e.g. our cognitive limitations, limit us from being able to understand our ends e.g. “reasons for our destiny”, or “reasons for why our life is absurd” etc. Again, I’m speculating—I’m not being overly rigid and literal—you’re failing to appreciate the context of my points, that is, I deliberately construed it as “means” as this is what my argument was tending towards.

You've mistaken my point. You were saying humans desired "reasons that transcend their means" (a rather awkward phrasing). I told you that humans desired reasons for events that transcend their knowledge. That's an important distinction. Basically, they couldn't endure that the circumstances of their lives were meaningless and simply a matter of chance. So they willed the birth of a god to give meaning to it.

As for speculating and not being rigid: rigor is a quality and bending facts to fit a predetermined narrative is not. What we see on the page and what we know from the author should always take precedence over what "seems like it could be neat".

How is this contrary to my points. I’m not contesting that the the word ‘idea’ as it figures in Berserk originates with Plato’s work nor am I contesting the Japanese sense of the word, nor am I contesting that it figures in Berserk as a form of power; I was speculating about the connection that may exist between Freud’s ID and the notion of evil, including its supernatural power that it confers to Apostles and the Godhand.

I wouldn't expect you to contest things you didn't know about. I'm just explaining to you what influenced the author when he created the story so that you know that it wasn't Freud's concept of the Id. Don't take it as a personal attack, it's just that what you said isn't true. You should rather see this as an opportunity to learn more about the many other concepts and notions Miura used and was influenced by when he created Berserk.

I’m sorry, but do you not understand the meaning of the term ‘speculation’? and have you not scrutinised my speculation carefully? I’m speculating about possible influences on Berserk; I’m not, and have made no pretensions of, contesting the verbatim text.

Speculation doesn't necessarily mean "baseless conjecture". On this forum we prefer constructive, grounded speculation. Furthermore, while it's admirable to speculate about "possible influences", that should not ignore (or worse, negate) the actual influences that we do know about with certainty. In this case, what you propose goes against what we're told in the manga. And I don't see how you can say you're "not contesting it" when you're straight-up saying it happens differently than it does. No, apostles don't become apostles "by removing their superego which moderates the unconscious mind". That is factually incorrect.

Again, I’m tempted to reply with the old cliché: you must be fun at parties.

I am actually great at parties, thank you! Certainly more so than some tryhard regurgitating poorly understood notions they read about on the Internet. :slan:

I’m left wondering if you understand the basics of human interaction, because going by the fact that many people have noted this about you without change in your behaviour

Resorting to personal attacks when you're out of arguments? How's that for an old cliché! :ganishka: And yes, oh yes the many malcontents who have been wronged over the years when they were told something they said was incorrect. Truly, has there ever been a greater injustice in this world? You might want to schedule a psychoanalytic session to get it off your chest. :iva:
 
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