The theory of Skull Knight being King Gaiseric when he was alive seems debunked

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Let us start by looking at the obvious facts that is right in the face.

When Gaiseric’s story is being told Guts thinks he seems very similar to Griffith. Nobody knows where they come from and they seem unstoppable in their quest for their great kingdom.

When Guts sees what happened to Skull Knight he thinks they are the same. They both got caught in an eclipse where the most traumatizing thing for them was what happened to their lover.

The world seems to function as a whirlpool, cyclic but slightly different every time. Guts and Casca was rescued instead of dying like Skull Knight and the Lady Priestess of the Cherry Blossoms.

So why can Gaiseric not have been the previous owner of the berserker armor?

Gaiseric’s physical existence seems to have ended when the five “angels” came and erased his city. If Gaiseric was the previous owner of the berserker armor the event must have been due to an eclipse. What happens in an eclipse is a sacrifice and the only one being able sacrifice Gaiseric’s city would be himself. It might also be possible for someone that really loves the people in it to sacrifice it, however it would be strange for someone loving so many people to sacrifice them all to obtain something grater.

If Gaiseric were the previous owner, it would mean he sacrificed his city to then mourn losing his lover and going berserk on the god hand, which does not make any sense.

It is very unlikely for the city to be destroyed by the elemental kings since the corpses where branded and legend talks about five “angels” which matches with the five members of the god hand as seen in the flashback and not the four elemental kings. Gaiseric would also needs to survive the event and go on a journey that has not been mentioned where he must have been betrayed. It would also be strange if the city were destroyed with magic while having powerful witches by his side or join up with them after.

From this point it is just about what things might be like if Skull Knight was not Gaiseric. Basically pure speculation to inspire your own theories about how things might be.

So who was Skull Knight then?


If Skull Knight was the Guts of his time, then he would need a Griffith type character to follow and then get betrayed by. It would make a lot of sense if Skull Knight were the right hand of Gaiseric that was given a part of the kingdom or king of a closely allied kingdom.

He could also just be a random king that trusted the wrong guy, but it seems very unlikely that his backstory would be something that has nothing to do with the current story.

If Skull Knight was betrayed by Gaiseric.

The most likely scenario with this theory is that Skull Knight was betrayed by Gaiseric meaning he is one of the five god hand members from the flashback and the only one that would make sense is if Gaiseric became Void. It sounds farfetched since they don’t look alike but if he only whore the skeleton mask in battle it might not be a defining feature if it was actually his great thinking that got him so far.

It would explain Skull Knights focus on Void and Void being the strongest since he made the greatest sacrifice, no one can sacrifice more than the largest known city that was spend a lifetime on.

How did Skull Knight become what he is?

Since it is about Skull Knight it is a good opportunity for me to share how I think a being like Skull Knight came to be. We know the transformation happened when Skull Knight became consumed by his rage while wearing the berserker armor. Guts’ berserker armor takes shape after his Beast of Darkness so it would make a lot of sense if Skull Knights Beast of Darkness was a skeleton and giving in to his rage he became his Beast of Darkness. This skeleton Beast of Darkness must then have been tamed by Flora and Hanarr making Skull Knight.
 

Aazealh

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Let me preface this by saying it's always very amusing to me when people argue against something that is basically already a known fact, usually three episodes away from it being directly stated in the story. Which is what you're doing here. There is no doubt whatsoever at this point that Gaiseric became the Skull Knight. So one doesn't even need to read whatever you've cooked up to know it's wrong, the only question is: how many things did you get wrong in the process? Let's dive in.

When Gaiseric’s story is being told Guts thinks he seems very similar to Griffith. Nobody knows where they come from and they seem unstoppable in their quest for their great kingdom.

It's only his quick rise to glory from an unknown background that Guts finds "kind of" similar to Griffith. The mention of a skull helmet also immediately evokes the Skull Knight to him in that scene.

When Guts sees what happened to Skull Knight he thinks they are the same. They both got caught in an eclipse where the most traumatizing thing for them was what happened to their lover.

His reflection doesn't go quite that far.

Gaiseric’s physical existence seems to have ended when the five “angels” came and erased his city. If Gaiseric was the previous owner of the berserker armor the event must have been due to an eclipse. What happens in an eclipse is a sacrifice and the only one being able sacrifice Gaiseric’s city would be himself. It might also be possible for someone that really loves the people in it to sacrifice it, however it would be strange for someone loving so many people to sacrifice them all to obtain something grater.

This is an astonishing lapse of logic. First off, we do see that the Skull Knight, referred to as "your majesty" by the people who knew him back then, died during an Eclipse and while wearing the Berserk's armor. That's the whole point of episode 362. That's what Guts thinks back on in the scene you incorrectly referenced above. Please do also note that the Skull Knight refers to himself as a "foolish king" in that episode.

Second, no matter who sacrificed the city and what it represented, it was something dear to them. That's how sacrifices work. There's no reason at all to say it could have only been Gaiseric, or that it would be strange for someone else to make that sacrifice. By your own logic, why would the emperor sacrifice what he had? He had nothing to gain, since he already had it all. Anyway, there's in fact a really strong candidate for who made that sacrifice: the person who became Void. Who could that have been? Likely Gaiseric's right hand man, long suspected to be the wiseman Mozgus mentions in the Tower of Conviction.

If Gaiseric were the previous owner, it would mean he sacrificed his city to then mourn losing his lover and going berserk on the god hand, which does not make any sense.

Gaiseric wasn't the one who made the sacrifice. He was on the receiving end. He became the Skull Knight, and has been pursuing revenge against the God Hand ever since. It's really quite straightforward.

If Skull Knight was the Guts of his time, then he would need a Griffith type character to follow and then get betrayed by. It would make a lot of sense if Skull Knight were the right hand of Gaiseric that was given a part of the kingdom or king of a closely allied kingdom.

You mentioned at the beginning, incorrectly of course, Flora's words about causality being like a spiral and not a circle. And yet you fail to realize a very simple fact: just because the Skull Knight and Guts were both sacrificed, it doesn't mean their prior lives were exactly the same. And it is actually very clear that they weren't.

Gaiseric became Void. It sounds farfetched since they don’t look alike

We don't know what Gaiseric looked like. We've never seen his face.

Void being the strongest since he made the greatest sacrifice, no one can sacrifice more than the largest known city that was spend a lifetime on.

That's not how sacrifices work.

Since it is about Skull Knight it is a good opportunity for me to share how I think a being like Skull Knight came to be. We know the transformation happened when Skull Knight became consumed by his rage while wearing the berserker armor. Guts’ berserker armor takes shape after his Beast of Darkness so it would make a lot of sense if Skull Knights Beast of Darkness was a skeleton and giving in to his rage he became his Beast of Darkness. This skeleton Beast of Darkness must then have been tamed by Flora and Hanarr making Skull Knight.

You seem to deeply misunderstand how the Skull Knight came to be. He died while wearing the Berserk's armor. His soul was then transferred into another armor – the one he currently wears – that has allowed him to keep fighting his enemies instead of moving on. There's only one Berserk's armor. The one Gaiseric died in is currently being worn by Guts. And the Beast of Darkness is a embodiment of Guts' dark side and is unique to his psyche. It's not a generic term or even a thing that everybody has.
 
First off, we do see that the Skull Knight, referred to as "your majesty" by the people who knew him back then, died during an Eclipse and while wearing the Berserk's armor. That's the whole point of episode 362. That's what Guts thinks back on in the scene you incorrectly referenced above. Please do also note that the Skull Knight refers to himself as a "foolish king" in that episode.
Just because he was a king does not mean he was King Gaiseric. Gaiseric was controlling the biggest empire know, and to control so much you need multiple leaders. Everyone calling him king was either close to him or could be mocking him of his downfall. He sees his time as a king as a failure, he feels guilty about something he did as a king.

no matter who sacrificed the city and what it represented, it was something dear to them. That's how sacrifices work. There's no reason at all to say it could have only been Gaiseric, or that it would be strange for someone else to make that sacrifice.
I don't see anyone thinking Gaiseric and everyone in the city being dear to them other than a queen like figure. To me it seems you can always sacrifice someone who is under your command like sacrificing something your own. However to sacrifice someone else you would need a personal connection that would be hard for a normal person to sever.

It could be one of his highest commanders betraying him, I just don’t think it makes much sense to be able to do a coup with an eclipse. The eclipse is about sacrificing everything you have when you hit rock bottom to keep your dream alive. If it were one of Gaiseric’s advisors, it would be like if Griffith could sacrifice midland before he was caught. If it was the wise man, it would be like if Griffith could sacrifice midland after escaping. I just don’t see someone else than Gaiseric thinking they were then ones to create midland.

Something must have caused the kingdom to start falling apart or their continued expansion must have haltered. I just don’t see anyone else than Gaiseric himself think this was a problem first.

By your own logic, why would the emperor sacrifice what he had? He had nothing to gain, since he already had it all.
The king figures in Berserk does not really know when to stop they always keep pushing until the bitter end. Gaiseric and Griffith will probably only be satisfied with world domination. I would not be surprised if they continued to try to try to improve the world after they have conquered it all.

And yet you fail to realize a very simple fact: just because the Skull Knight and Guts were both sacrificed, it doesn't mean their prior lives were exactly the same. It is actually very clearly that they weren't.
I don't say that they are exactly the same I just mean that they fill the same role in the cycle since they had the same key moments happen to them. Every cycle is a bit different, hence we see Guts and Casca still being alive. Guts have not succumbed to the Beast of Darkness; the kingdom is being build up after the Incarnation and not destroyed at it and so on. Lots of things are different but I think at the core of the story there is a man having the largest dream in 1000 years dooming him to sacrifice everything for the dream. The opposition to this is a man trying to be his equal realizing too late that the dream is down a sinister path that is not worth it.

To have the guy with the big dream also try to stop it, would mean both characters assume both roles which seems a bit weird.

We don't know what Gaiseric looked like. We've never seen his face.
Gaiseric wearing a skull helmet seems pretty defining for his character, so it would at least be surprising if it did not influence his appearance in his potential god hand form.

That's not how sacrifices work.
Generally the more work/time you put into something the more you care for it and have a hard time separating from it. Generally so not always the case.

His soul was then transferred into another armor – the one he currently wears – that has allowed him to keep fighting his enemies instead of moving on.
We just know that he eventually ended up like he is with the help of Hanarr and probably Flora. From Skull Knights explanation it seems like he instantly started hunting and did not wait to be forged into armor.

And the Beast of Darkness is a embodiment of Guts' dark side and is unique to his psyche. It's not a generic term or even a thing that everybody has.
Skull Knight knows all about the dangers of the berserker armor, and the danger is to be consumed by rage. For Guts that is embodied as the Beast of Darkness, Skull Knight most likely had his own embodiment with the shape of a skeleton.
 
Ι get the appeal of trying to debunk one of the most widely accepted theories, but without trying to be rude, none of your reasoning makes any sense to me. I would like to try and debate it, but I honestly can't even see a good argument. Not only is it not debunked, but it's almost certainly right.
We know the transformation happened when Skull Knight became consumed by his rage while wearing the berserker armor.
No we don't. No one knows what actually happened.
Guts’ berserker armor takes shape after his Beast of Darkness so it would make a lot of sense if Skull Knights Beast of Darkness was a skeleton and giving in to his rage he became his Beast of Darkness. This skeleton Beast of Darkness must then have been tamed by Flora and Hanarr making Skull Knight.
So if guts were to meet the same fate, would he become a dog, woofing endlessly in the night? :chomp:
 

Aazealh

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Just because he was a king does not mean he was King Gaiseric. Gaiseric was controlling the biggest empire know, and to control so much you need multiple leaders.

Is this supposed to be a strong argument? Because it sounds laughable. "Just because he was a king, like Gaiseric, and is defined by his skull helmet, like Gaiseric, and was there when Gaiseric's city was destroyed... doesn't mean he's Gaiseric. Maybe he's some other guy we've never heard of." Literally everything in the story points at the Skull Knight being Gaiseric. And it isn't new, it's been pretty obvious since volume 10.

You're trying to argue that it's not the case, but so far you've failed to put forward anything worth considering. You're mostly just saying you don't think it makes sense, which has no weight whatsoever.

To me it seems you can always sacrifice someone who is under your command like sacrificing something your own.

This is not how sacrifices work in Berserk. You really ought to pay more attention to how things are portrayed in the manga.

The eclipse is about sacrificing everything you have when you hit rock bottom to keep your dream alive.

The whole dream deal was Griffith's thing. You're inventing false constraints.

If it were one of Gaiseric’s advisors, it would be like if Griffith could sacrifice midland before he was caught. If it was the wise man, it would be like if Griffith could sacrifice midland after escaping. I just don’t see someone else than Gaiseric thinking they were then ones to create midland.

What you're saying is nonsensical. To be honest your grasp on the series appears to be very limited. Gaiseric had already created his empire. The one who betrayed him was no doubt unhappy with the way things were going. That's why he resorted to that dark ritual.

The king figures in Berserk does not really know when to stop they always keep pushing until the bitter end. Gaiseric and Griffith will probably only be satisfied with world domination. I would not be surprised if they continued to try to try to improve the world after they have conquered it all.

More nonsense. You can hardly compare figures like the former King of Midland to Ganishka, to Gaiseric or even Griffith, who is de facto the ruler of Falconia. Putting that aside, Griffith isn't working towards improving the world. He is a member of the God Hand. Not a good guy.

Every cycle is a bit different, hence we see Guts and Casca still being alive. Guts have not succumbed to the Beast of Darkness; the kingdom is being build up after the Incarnation and not destroyed at it and so on.

Guts and Casca are alive because the Skull Knight saved them. Gaiseric presumably died because of the wounds he sustained while fighting against the God Hand. And you're mixing up the Eclipse and the Incarnation ceremony.

Gaiseric wearing a skull helmet seems pretty defining for his character, so it would at least be surprising if it did not influence his appearance in his potential god hand form.

It's defining for his character for sure. That's why he became the Skull Knight.

Generally the more work/time you put into something the more you care for it and have a hard time separating from it. Generally so not always the case.

That's unrelated to what we were talking about. Sacrifices aren't about quantity, and neither is the power that results from a sacrifice.

We just know that he eventually ended up like he is with the help of Hanarr and probably Flora. From Skull Knights explanation it seems like he instantly started hunting and did not wait to be forged into armor.

Guts is currently wearing the very same armor the Skull Knight used to wear. That's why its helmet was skull-shaped when he first got it, and that's how he could relive his death. There is absolutely no doubt at all that SK currently wears a different armor from the one he had when he died. Note that Hanarr and SK also refer to that fact in episode 361.

Skull Knight knows all about the dangers of the berserker armor, and the danger is to be consumed by rage.

There are multiple risks associated with the Berserk's armor, as a matter of fact. And if you want to nitpick, none are technically about being "consumed by rage". It's the armor's Od that does the consuming.
 
First sacrifice we learn about is the count sacrificing his wife to save him from his suffering in revenge 7.

Second sacrifice is Griffith sacrificing his band of the hawk to obtain his kingdom in episode 78.

Third sacrifice is Rosine sacrificing her parents to make the elves in the Misty Valley true in episode 115.

Forth sacrifice is Ganishka sacrificing his son and probably others to instill fear in others in episode 303.

It is always clearly theirs what they sacrifice, that is why I think if midland was sacrificed it must be Gaiseric. It was Gaiseric’s empire not anyone else. And from the flashback we see that Skull Knight can’t have been the one to make the sacrifice.

Is this supposed to be a strong argument? Because it sounds laughable.
No, it is not a strong argument I am just saying that just because they have similarities they don't have to be the same person.

The whole dream deal was Griffith's thing. You're inventing false constraints.
Calling it a dream was just a generalization, they want something they can’t obtain themselves.

What you're saying is nonsensical. To be honest your grasp on the series appears to be very limited. Gaiseric had already created his empire. The one who betrayed him was no doubt unhappy with the way things were going. That's why he resorted to that dark ritual.
No, I have not read the series multiple times and studied all the panels, but I know that the people in Midland died because they were sacrificed with the brand of sacrifice, and I am pretty sure you can only sacrifice what is yours. Some evil guy that betrayed Gaiseric could not sacrifice Gaiseric’s people with a dark ritual if they were not his people.

More nonsense. You can hardly compare figures like the former King of Midland to Ganishka, to Gaiseric or even Griffith, who is de facto the ruler of Falconia. Putting that aside, Griffith isn't working towards improving the world. He is a member of the God Hand. Not a good guy.
I am not saying they are the same, I just think there is a trend among all the kings in the Berserk universe that keep focusing on one thing as long as they live. I know Griffith is not a good guy the sacrifices he makes on his journey to obtaining his kingdom will probably not justify the kingdom.

And you're mixing up the Eclipse and the Incarnation ceremony.
I don't think the flashback is two different events I don’t see a mortal Skull Knight surviving an eclipse without help from a being like Skull Knight of course there could be such a figure making Guts’ and Skull Knight’s story even more similar.

To me it looks like he sees the god hand which enrages him, and he stops when he notices he is holding the Lady Priestess of the Cherry Blossoms.

There are multiple risks associated with the Berserk's armor, as a matter of fact.
What other risks are associated with the Berserker armor than being consumed by its Od? Yes, it allows you to push your limits beyond what is human, but the wearer can decide how far the limits are pushed if the wearer is not consumed by the Od.

No we don't. No one knows what actually happened.
Yea we don't know for sure, but it seems pretty clear that Skull Knight says that the flashback was when he changed. He is slowly losing sight of the world, most likely giving in to the armor/his rage just like Guts in episode 87.

So if guts were to meet the same fate, would he become a dog, woofing endlessly in the night? :chomp:
If he gives in to the Beast of Darkness he would act like it, but not necessarily look just like it.
 

Aazealh

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First sacrifice we learn about is the count sacrificing his wife to save him from his suffering in revenge 7.
Second sacrifice is Griffith sacrificing his band of the hawk to obtain his kingdom in episode 78.
Third sacrifice is Rosine sacrificing her parents to make the elves in the Misty Valley true in episode 115.
Forth sacrifice is Ganishka sacrificing his son and probably others to instill fear in others in episode 303.

You forgot about the beherit apostle. And it seems you're not quite clear on why people sacrifice and what they obtain in exchange for it.

It is always clearly theirs what they sacrifice

A wife isn't the property of her husband. Parents aren't the property of their child, nor are children the property of their parents. And mercenary fighters aren't the property of their leader. You're seriously misguided here. Like I told you before, you should re-read the relevant parts of the manga carefully. What people have to sacrifice is something that is very dear to them, not something that they "own". See what Slan tells the Count in volume 3.

I know Griffith is not a good guy the sacrifices he makes on his journey to obtaining his kingdom will probably not justify the kingdom.

Griffith isn't human anymore, he's a monster, and his ambition now goes beyond having a kingdom.

What other risks are associated with the Berserker armor than being consumed by its Od?

Losing your senses; involuntarily harming your comrades.

Yes, it allows you to push your limits beyond what is human, but the wearer can decide how far the limits are pushed if the wearer is not consumed by the Od.

That's not how it works.

Yea we don't know for sure, but it seems pretty clear that Skull Knight says that the flashback was when he changed.

No. It's when he died. It's made very clear.

I've let you post these few replies out of courtesy, but this thread isn't going anywhere and I'm so going to lock it. If I may offer advice, in the future I would recommend carefully checking relevant parts of the story before posting theories or attempting to "debunk" things. Merely having an opinion isn't enough, you also need to get your facts straight.
 
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