TV Series: Lost

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

George Lucas wrote all the Star Wars movies in a notebook back in the 1970's, he really had it all planned out back then, all 9 episodes, and it was originally supposed to be 12! It's true!! =)
 
Re: Lost Season 4

Aazealh said:
No I'm not, and I wasn't mistaken before, so there's no "again".

Well, you were saying something about Jack saying that they shouldn't be alive and that was sort of mistaken.

Aazealh said:
It's pretty clear to me that nothing was prepared for his death, so it came rather abruptly and wasn't particularly relevant to the rest, nor very good.

Whether you believe it or not the writers made several hints in the podcasts around that time that they knew Adewale (Eko) was going to leave the show by the time Ana-Lucia died and that they tried to extend Adewale's stay so that Eko could get a proper end (and not just die in the hatch explosion) and Adewale agreed to make one episode of Season 3. That's why they added that silly plot where Eko had been taken by a Polar bear, which I will agree was lame. But it was just one episode. Then they wrapped up Eko's story in his episode and I thought it was a good one. I disagree that it wasn't relevant, it revealed so many things about the nature of the monster and the visions. I will never look at the episode "Dave" with the same eyes again after that episode. It wasn't the first time one of the 815ers were tested by the monster, and Eko went out like a rockstar.

Aazealh said:
If they knew his contract was to end, they should have inquired earlier about it and prepared themselves for his departure. By "contract" I didn't mean any contract but one that would have ensured the actor would stay for as long as his character was supposed to be on air. At least Ana-Lucia's death was written in much more smoothly. The point remains that the writers are sloppy in many ways.

I'm not sure there was supposed to be more to Eko's storyline than what we got. If the writers wanted Eko to stay it would probably have more to do with Eko being a fan favorite than Eko being important to the storyline. From the Season 2 DVD extra it's pretty clear that Ana and Eko was simply brought in to "kick butt" and make the second season more intense. Here we have two badass characters who've been through shit on the other side of the island and they're dangerous. The writers hadn't even written the "Christ Club" thing when they began, it was just something Adewale did on his own with a stick and the writers became interested in it. They probably always intended for both characters to meet a pretty violent death before the season ended but they weren't expecting fans to dislike Ana so much, and in contrast they had no idea Eko would be so popular. I liked him too and it would've been cool if Adewale had agreed to stay on the show but I don't think anything significant was lost when Eko bit the dust. He didn't make the show.

Also, the writers have said that they were originally interested in Lance Reddick for the part of Eko (he would have made a more convincing priest/brother of Yemi for sure) but he wasn't available at the time. But now they've apparently found another role for Reddick and he will be one of the new characters in Season 4. Good actor, can't wait to see where they're going with him.

Aazealh said:
It's cool that you're such a fan of the show, but as you can see we're more critical of it in general. In the end though, we're still all watching it.

I don't mind if you are critical, I was critical at first too, especially around the middle of Season 2, but you guys are still arguing that the writers don't know where they're going with the story even though they have already conceptualized the ending and announced that there are *exactly* 48 episodes remaining...
 
Re: Lost Season 4

A.C said:
The writers hadn't even written the "Christ Club" thing when they began, it was just something Adewale did on his own with a stick and the writers became interested in it.

I'm glad to see my unofficial term for his stick is catching on. :ganishka:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Lost Season 4

Damn, you've dragged me into an argument when I really didn't want to get involved.

A.C said:
Well, you were saying something about Jack saying that they shouldn't be alive and that was sort of mistaken.

No, I said "I wonder if he didn't even say that they shouldn't be alive", which was an invitation for you to confirm or deny it (because I didn't care to check a half-dozen episodes of season 3 to see if any resembling allusion was made at some point).

A.C said:
Whether you believe it or not the writers made several hints in the podcasts around that time that they knew Adewale (Eko) was going to leave the show by the time Ana-Lucia died and that they tried to extend Adewale's stay so that Eko could get a proper end (and not just die in the hatch explosion)

Actually, dying in the hatch explosion while saving Locke would have been a far better end for him IMHO. More proper in any way that I can think of. Sacrificing himself, knowing that he was right, finding redemption for his sins. And it would have made Desmond's survival all the more mysterious. But yeah, I'm sure they'd have been really bothered if Eko had died shortly after Ana-Lucia, I mean, it's not like Libby died in the same episode or something.

A.C said:
That's why they added that silly plot where Eko had been taken by a Polar bear, which I will agree was lame.

So basically, they knew it in advance and all, but just aren't talended? I guess that's a way to rationalize it.

A.C said:
I disagree that it wasn't relevant, it revealed so many things about the nature of the monster and the visions. I will never look at the episode "Dave" with the same eyes again after that episode. It wasn't the first time one of the 815ers were tested by the monster, and Eko went out like a rockstar.

I would say that Eko went out like a loser. He had defeated that monster before, but this time he just died helplessly. Great. And the cryptic stuff we "learned" hasn't been used since then. I'm glad to know you're a fan of Hurley's filler episodes, though. :p

A.C said:
I'm not sure there was supposed to be more to Eko's storyline than what we got. If the writers wanted Eko to stay it would probably have more to do with Eko being a fan favorite than Eko being important to the storyline.

Well, I'm pretty sure they wanted to keep him around myself. The way he was developed was quite promising (with many things left in the air), and that's why so many people were pissed when he died. I know that for many people he was the second best character on the show after Locke. Going by your logic, not a lot of characters are important to the storyline. Hell, the character of Ben was kept around because people liked him, even though it made some early elements seem dubious in retrospect. I believe the problem here is that you've only started following the series recently, unlike us, so you've missed events and the media backlash they provoked. When Eko died, people horribly blamed the production and it was quickly told everywhere that it was the actor's decision to be written off and not the production team's.

To quote the same lostpedia site you linked earlier in the thread: "Adewele asked to be written off the series after losing both his parents in 2005." There you have it (and here's a source to back it up). He asked, and they complied. Or maybe the writers had planned his parents' death all along?

A.C said:
From the Season 2 DVD extra it's pretty clear that Ana and Eko was simply brought in to "kick butt" and make the second season more intense.

Well, I don't know many people that found it all that intense overall. But in any case, even if we assume that they had planned all these characters to die at the end of the season, it's honestly a pretty clumsy move. Not flattering to the writers, no matter what you say.

A.C said:
I don't mind if you are critical, I was critical at first too, especially around the middle of Season 2, but you guys are still arguing that the writers don't know where they're going with the story even though they have already conceptualized the ending and announced that there are *exactly* 48 episodes remaining...

The only problem here is that they announced this to calm people and try to stop the ratings from dropping drastically, as they had been doing. And do you know why they had been dropping? Because people thought the writers were full of shit and that the story wasn't going anywhere. It was a reaction to the criticism they had received and accepted, before that they had always stayed vague about it. And frankly, after the way they'd been treating things so far, it feels rushed. Like they're making it short to be sure they'll avoid cancellation.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

Yeah, and 24 of those 48 "planned" episodes, if not more, will still be filler written by a pool of writers randomly assigned to do one. This is still a TV show, the production team that made season 1 isn't the same one doing it now, there isn't this grand continuity, even if most of the actors remain the same; writers come and go, the best people get plucked by other shows or move on, and producers and other studio leeches jump on board, so this nice idea about a big plan being precisely followed is just that, a nice idea. Eko's death epitomizes this, as Aaz said, they kept Eko around because he was popular (because that's what really dictates this stuff), but then the actor bailed (he didn't get along with the production either), and so they burned a few episodes awkwardly killing him off, and it was obviously forced, nonsensical, and poorly written out (they basically killed his character literally figuratively too, since they ruined him in his death scene). Again, as Aaz pointed it, this was compounded and further highlighted by the fact that it would have made too much sense that Eko die in the destruction of the hatch if they were planning to kill him, rather than pissing on everything he'd said up to that point while being killed by a lame special effect.

I'm not saying this to bash the show, it's just the nature of the beast, and however well done their plan is, it's not going to be the deciding factor in whether these last 2 seasons are good or not, but the quality of day to day writing and production. Also, I'm now involved in an Internet Lost discussion, UGH!

lostthisfuckinshow.gif
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Lost Season 4

Griffith No More! said:
a lame special effect.

:judo:

fence_monster.jpg

I have to say, the first time we saw the monster was truly one of the biggest disappointments I ever felt while watching a TV series. It's so bad I couldn't really believe it.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

Aazealh said:
I have to say, the first time we saw the monster was truly one of the biggest disappointments I felt while watching a TV series.

Same, I would have preferred an invisible monster to be honest, which is basically what it was originally. Like, they could have spent nothing and just had the actors cower before nothing and it would have been more effective, and kind of interesting. I'm dead serious.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Lost Season 4

Griffith No More! said:
The same, I would have preferred an invisible monster to be honest, which is basically what it was originally. Like, they could have spent nothing and just had the actors cower before nothing and it would have been more effective, and kind of interesting. I'm dead serious.

Yeah, I agree. Just never truly revealing it would have been more effective, like what they did at first. And the smoke aspect just doesn't seem to make much sense anyway. What's it supposed to be made of, magic nanomachines?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

Aazealh said:
Yeah, I agree. Just never truly revealing it would have been more effective, like what they did at first. And the smoke aspect just doesn't seem to make much sense anyway. What's it supposed to be made of, magic nanomachines?

Midichlorians! Actually, the monster is a living form of pure concentrated bullshit. =)

Still, at this point I've made my peace with it and it's lesser place in the story, they obviously went in a different direction with the purpose of it altogether, which I'm sure had nothing to do with the original intent. It goes back to the basic catch 22 of these kinds of shows, in that everything becomes less interesting just by the fact that it's explained at all, no matter what the explanation, because it won't be as compelling as the mystery and anticipation. So, they move on and make up a new compelling mystery. Just watch, the end of season 3 won't be nearly as good once they explain it, it's just going to be another episode of...

lostthisfuckinshow.gif

And that's what's good about it really, the mystery unfolding, not the revelation itself. Honestly, who cares or thinks it will be significant?
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
Re: Lost Season 4

Griffith No More! said:
Midichlorians! Actually, the monster is a living form of pure concentrated bullshit. =)

My sister introduced this show to me during season 3 and I'm trying to figure out HOW floating grinded up charcoal stomps. Better yet, how does it get blocked by a force field? Couldn't the monster simply float over it? How? Is there any back story to this thing?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
I'm trying to figure out HOW floating grinded up charcoal stomps. Better yet, how does it get blocked by a force field? Couldn't the monster simply float over it? How? Is there any back story to this thing?

Uhh... it's all part of the plan, you know, intelligent design. On the seventh day, God created Lost.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
Re: Lost Season 4

Griffith No More! said:
Uhh... it's all part of the plan, you know, intelligent design. On the seventh day, God created Lost.

And if I don't believe in god?


What's up with the Other's? How old are they exactly? Any answers on that?
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

For the answer to all your questions, you'll just have to watch the rest of Lost to find out! :troll:
 
Re: Lost Season 4

[quote author=Aazealh]
Damn, you've dragged me into an argument when I really didn't want to get involved.[/quote]
[quote author=Griffith No More!]I'm now involved in an Internet Lost discussion, UGH![/quote]

I think it's funny how you guys don't want to be involved in discussing the show, yet you seem to pay at least some attention to it by reading articles and stuff. It's like you're embarrassed to admit you know things about the show. =)

I think you make a good job arguing it's faults, it's actually a bit refreshing even if I don't feel the same way. But you make some excellent points.

[quote author=Aazealh]Going by your logic, not a lot of characters are important to the storyline.[/quote]

I think the show is set up so that any character can become important to the storyline, because the storyline is flexible and is centered around this mysterious island. It's not just the island that intrigues me a lot, but how various characters will treat their life on the island and their interaction with various characters. Who is going to end up on the side of good and who is not? Who's on the list and who is not? Eko had a black soul, which was evident by the episode you dislike so much and every other flashback he had. The island made him a better person at first, but in the end Eko would not repent. I find it fascinating even if I can understand why you would find it indignified to the character. At least it was true to the shows themes and may have benefited the show in the long run rather than to focus on giving Eko a dignified end in the hatch. I guess if you only like Locke and Eko then the show will not be as interesting for you.

As for me being a fan of Hurley's filler episodes... I wouldn't call "Dave" a filler episode. I think it was the most interesting Hurley episode the show has had so far and the most important. It may have lacked the humour of his other ones but it was supposed to be darker.

[quote author=Aazealh]The only problem here is that they announced this to calm people and try to stop the ratings from dropping drastically, as they had been doing. And do you know why they had been dropping? Because people thought the writers were full of shit and that the story wasn't going anywhere. It was a reaction to the criticism they had received and accepted, before that they had always stayed vague about it. And frankly, after the way they'd been treating things so far, it feels rushed. Like they're making it short to be sure they'll avoid cancellation.[/quote]

I don't believe this, because before they could even announce it, they had to make a deal with ABC that would allowed them to even end the show when they wanted, because it was the uncertainty that made the writers always be vague about how long the show would run. The writers even admit that the first three seasons had some poor fillers because they didn't know how much story they should use so as not to burn through all their material too quickly in case ABC wanted the show to stay on the air forever. They also felt the seasons were too long and are now happy to make shorter, 16 episode long seasons with zero fillers for the sake of the audience. I think they're cool and I think the new seasons will be awesome.

[quote author=Griffith No More!]This is still a TV show, the production team that made season 1 isn't the same one doing it now, there isn't this grand continuity, even if most of the actors remain the same; writers come and go[/quote]

I'm aware of that, but at the core there is still Damon and Carlton who are the producers, writers, and creators of the show. They have obviously outlined the story for the other writers to follow. JJ. Abrams has said he felt comfortable leaving the show in their hands.

I agree that the writers sometimes listen a bit too much on the fans and makes some awkward fan references (like "You two arguing over who's your favorite Other?") but I never took the show to be dead serious or expecting it to be a masterpiece either. It's still miles above most other TV shows (including Anime.)

As for the monster being a lame special effect... I liked that it was an artificial looking smoke, it still leaves it vague if it is a supernatural or pseudo-scientific thing. It is the watchdog of the Island which Dharma so cleverly nicknamed the "Cerberus". I still reserv my final judgement until the nature of it is revealed, but I will say that not many of the answers have disappointed me. The button was real and did in fact save the world, including making Oceanic 815 crash. I thought that was cool. The visions appear to be manifestasions of the monster, I thought that was also cool. So I don't agree that everything becomes less interesting by the fact that it's explained. Also, what exactly at the end of season 3 is it you don't think will be as good once they explain? How they got off the island? Who is in the coffin? Who's on the freighter? I think those answers will be cool and compelling nomatter how they're revealed.

[quote author=Vampire_Hunter_Bob]My sister introduced this show to me during season 3 and I'm trying to figure out HOW floating grinded up charcoal stomps. Better yet, how does it get blocked by a force field? Couldn't the monster simply float over it?[/quote]

It got blocked by a sonic fence, apparently it doesn't like high sounds. and we don't know how smart it is. I get the feeling it's like a reactive system which would explain why it didn't try to float over the fence, or maybe it just can't float that high.

[quote author=Vampire_Hunter_Bob]
What's up with the Other's? How old are they exactly? Any answers on that?
[/quote]

I don't think we need spoiler tags for that. There isn't an answer yet, but it appears that the community of Others are made up of individuals who arrived on the island at different points in time. Most of them were brought to the island by Ben once he took control over Dharma's resources, probably because alot of the older Others had been killed in the conflict with Dharma. There are still some really old Others who may be over 400 years old, maybe one or two of them came on the Black Rock ship? Maybe one is Amelia Earhart, whose plane vanished over the Pacific Ocean in July 1937 (small clues are currently being revealed about that in the ongoing alternate reality game "Find 815".) It seems there has always been people on this island. I hope more will be revealed in season 4.

Also, they're the good guys :guts:
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Lost Season 4

A.C said:
Also, they're the good guys :guts:
Hahahaha, yeah, right. Not sure if you're joking or not, but I've read similar sentiments on the SA forums. So, I'll regard that as truth for now...

These are the GOOD guys, led by a guy who killed his own father, gassed an entire village, arranged for a guy to be killed by a bus so someone will agree to come to the island, locked a 9-year-old in a room strapped to a chair and forced him to watch mind-altering videos to siphon out his psychic abilities, (then did the same to his daughter's boyfriend), and.... wear fake beards!

Anyway, I think a lot of the backlash you're seeing from the show among me, Griff and Aaz is because this show DOES take itself too seriously, and tongue-in-cheek Internet argument reference jokes really aren't going to abate that. This show clearly banks on dweebs investigating idiotic number games by employing TiVo pauses/zoom-ins in order to catch superficial trite shit that make them think the show is grander than it is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm nearly always psyched about the next episode, but this is a frustrating show to watch on nearly every level. Thankfully, the show justifiably got taken down a few notches last season with its low ratings. It ended spectacularly I felt, but that really wasn't enough to make up for all the bullshit they've strung us out on for the 2 seasons since Season 1, which I still strongly feel had the best-written, most entertaining portions of the show.

I never took the show to be dead serious or expecting it to be a masterpiece either. It's still miles above most other TV shows (including Anime.)
Even better than Dragonball?! GET OUT OF MY THREAD.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

A.C said:
I think it's funny how you guys don't want to be involved in discussing the show, yet you seem to pay at least some attention to it by reading articles and stuff. It's like you're embarrassed to admit you know things about the show. =)

On the nose. =)

A.C said:
Eko had a black soul

Careful, we might have to suspend you for potentially racist remarks. :ganishka:

Anyway, I wasn't bothered by Eko's death because I liked his character personally or anything, I was upset on principle because he did a 180 and shat on the whole crux of his character and then getting offed in rushed fashion, this all happened in like 5 minutes. It was just uneven, sloppy, and rushed writing, and they've basically admitted as much due to the circumstances.

A.C said:
I don't believe this, because before they could even announce it, they had to make a deal with ABC that would allowed them to even end the show when they wanted, because it was the uncertainty that made the writers always be vague about how long the show would run. The writers even admit that the first three seasons had some poor fillers because they didn't know how much story they should use so as not to burn through all their material too quickly in case ABC wanted the show to stay on the air forever. They also felt the seasons were too long and are now happy to make shorter, 16 episode long seasons with zero fillers for the sake of the audience. I think they're cool and I think the new seasons will be awesome.

You're an optimist, I commend you for enjoying the show fully by seeing the best in it, but the fact is you've already decided to like anything they'll do, so why are we even discussing it? Oh wait, because I haven't. =)

Anyway, they made the deal after the ratings were going in the can so they wouldn't get canned, and the fact that they can do it in 5 seasons or go on "forever" as you put proves the point they're full of shit. It's a shaggy dog story, it can be as infinitely long or short as they want it to be because nothing in it really matters.

Also, I say 5 seasons instead of 6 because 48 episodes is really two 24 episode seasons like the last three, the three seasons of 16 is BULLSHIT. How about 48 single episode seasons guys (get them all on DVD!)?

A.C said:
I'm aware of that, but at the core there is still Damon and Carlton who are the producers, writers, and creators of the show. They have obviously outlined the story for the other writers to follow. JJ. Abrams has said he felt comfortable leaving the show in their hands.

Put your faith in the Lord, not J.J. Abrams. =)

Like I said, the quality is in the day to day writing, even if they have an outline of shocking silly revelations, the taste will be ultimately decided in cooking, not the recipe. The outline could be lame, but the writing could be fantastic and save it, or the outline could be really cool, and the writing could be uneven and sloppy and ruin it. Like the old saying, any material can be done well... or poorly.

A.C said:
I agree that the writers sometimes listen a bit too much on the fans and makes some awkward fan references (like "You two arguing over who's your favorite Other?") but I never took the show to be dead serious or expecting it to be a masterpiece either. It's still miles above most other TV shows (including Anime.)

Don't forget introducing some worthless new characters and killing them basically at the fans' request (which was a good thing, actually). Also, TV is shit, anime is garbage, and even if you say you don't expect anything, or maybe because of it, you're rationalizing a guilty pleasure into a masterpiece after the fact, spinning its vices into virtues, and believing the press releases. I like the show too, but the point of it is smoke and mirrors and characterization, there's absolutely no real substance behind the plot itself, they can literally do anything they want, that's the point of the setup. Again, I'm not bashing it for this, it's actually what makes the show such effective viewing, but the consequence is that whatever they do, it will rarely live up to the imagination and expectation of the individual viewer.

A.C said:
So I don't agree that everything becomes less interesting by the fact that it's explained. Also, what exactly at the end of season 3 is it you don't think will be as good once they explain? How they got off the island? Who is in the coffin? Who's on the freighter? I think those answers will be cool and compelling nomatter how they're revealed.

First of all, that last line, again, not exactly an objective perspective going in, but feeling that way about it is the point, you might still like the revelations after the fact, but they won't have that limitless potential they have now. That's what I meant, going back to the axiom that the unplayed note sounds the sweetest. It's not going to live up to each person's imagination, and the best thing about it is the anticipation, and once that's all over, it's over. That's why they can stretch it out forever, because it's at its best in the middle of things, not in a climax (take season 3's end, it was great not because of what it revealed, but because it revealed that there's a lot more we don't know yet and will find out). But when it's over? Then it'll be like an RPG when you're maxed out at level 99 and nothing can challenge you anymore and there's no strategy left; that boredom. When you have all the answers, when there's no wonder left, the wine loses its taste, the thrill is gone, whatever. Once the surprise of the season 3 finale wears off, it becomes just another common facet of the show in coming seasons, and all its secrets are revealed, it'll be nothing special anymore, and we'll move on to the next thing, just like with the hatch.

Anyway, it's a subjective experience however you decide to look at it, and like I said, you're being optimistic and seeing the best in everything, nothing wrong with that if that's how you enjoy the show to its full potential... for me, that full potential is in complaining about all its shitty tendencies like the old ball and chain. :zodd:

And speaking of which, talking about the finale reminded of how awful Charlie's death was, it had holes in it big enough to swim through (literally), and now I've also written a huge post about Lost! UGH and double UGH, this... this...

lostthisfuckinshow.gif


I can't wait. :guts:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Lost Season 4

A.C said:
I think it's funny how you guys don't want to be involved in discussing the show, yet you seem to pay at least some attention to it by reading articles and stuff. It's like you're embarrassed to admit you know things about the show. =)

Well, we're shrewd? :guts: Personally I just don't feel like spending too much time arguing about it when I could be doing something else. I like the show but there's a limit.

A.C said:
I think the show is set up so that any character can become important to the storyline, because the storyline is flexible and is centered around this mysterious island.

Yes, that's true. Sayid could have died instead of Eko, and it wouldn't have been the end of the world. Having many characters that aren't major but aren't really minor either is an interesting part of the show. The problem is that when whole episodes focus on them it can feel like filler (Bernard?!), and for good reasons because it almost always IS filler (meaning that the plot doesn't progress at all). However, just so it's clear, I do believe that a few key characters just couldn't possibly be written off.

A.C said:
Eko had a black soul, which was evident by the episode you dislike so much and every other flashback he had. The island made him a better person at first, but in the end Eko would not repent. I find it fascinating even if I can understand why you would find it indignified to the character.

I think that's a controversial thing to say. Did Eko really have a black soul? He did bad things, but he didn't have an easy life. It all started when he saved his brother, and before coming to the island he actually lived as a priest and wasn't a bad man then. I think his character is more ambiguous than you give him credit for, and I doubt the island is the only reason he was a good man. Besides, why just completely change his mind while still on the island? It doesn't make sense. And really, repenting for what and to whom? The whole way the conversation was conducted made the brother impersonator seem like a treacherous, malicious being to me. An entity arrogant enough to demand that a man seek its forgiveness, and "black" enough to call for his death when he refuses.

A.C said:
I don't believe this, because before they could even announce it, they had to make a deal with ABC that would allowed them to even end the show when they wanted, because it was the uncertainty that made the writers always be vague about how long the show would run.

But isn't that proving what we've been saying all along? They never had a precise plan, and the show would have lasted as long as the X-Files if the ratings had remained good. When they started dropping, the production staff knew the carefree days were over. If you're thinking it was all planned in advance and that the 3 seasons of 16 episodes aren't just a poor attempt to hide the fact they're "rushing" it (compared to their ideal scenario), you're IMHO deluded.

A.C said:
I agree that the writers sometimes listen a bit too much on the fans and makes some awkward fan references (like "You two arguing over who's your favorite Other?") but I never took the show to be dead serious or expecting it to be a masterpiece either. It's still miles above most other TV shows (including Anime.)

Doesn't beat the A-Team, Knight Rider or MacGyver. :p Anyway, you're right that the writers listen far too much to the vocal fans. Another stain on their record. A serious author will never deviate from his original plan because the fans are whining. Like Griff said, see Paulo and Nikki's introduction, then their quick death because of the fans' discontentment. That was almost hilarious honestly, though I must admit their deaths were cleverly brought in.

A.C said:
As for the monster being a lame special effect... I liked that it was an artificial looking smoke, it still leaves it vague if it is a supernatural or pseudo-scientific thing.

Oh come on, are you joking? It would have still worked if it had been good-looking CGI black smoke... As it stands it felt like they had used up all their budget.

A.C said:
It is the watchdog of the Island which Dharma so cleverly nicknamed the "Cerberus".

Rousseau said it was a defense system! :isidro: (On a side note, the actress has a good accent, but they need a better French translator because she's said bullshit several times)

A.C said:
Who is in the coffin?

It's
Ben
. :isidro:

A.C said:
maybe one or two of them came on the Black Rock ship?

That one's a given I think. I nominate Richard.
 
Re: Lost Season 4

[quote author=Walter]
These are the GOOD guys, led by a guy who killed his own father, gassed an entire village, arranged for a guy to be killed by a bus so someone will agree to come to the island, locked a 9-year-old in a room strapped to a chair and forced him to watch mind-altering videos to siphon out his psychic abilities, (then did the same to his daughter's boyfriend), and.... wear fake beards![/quote]

Ben has lost his way, you can't trust him. But you can trust Jacob. Jacob loves you.

Seriously though, there's still some context missing from those scenes which might justify some of what they've done. The rest could be blamed on Ben's misguided and self-centered judgement. This is one of the things I'm not going to be dissappointed in if it turns out to be correct. When the button was introduced everyone called bullshit, and right before the reveal the writers made us even more skeptical by introducing the Pearl station, but then we learn the button is actually real. I expect the same thing to happen when they reveal the true meaning of the Others. Right now we're in doubt but I think it will change in Season 4. What I'm worried about is that alot of fans have been begging the writers not to make them the good guys and I would hate it if they started listening to them. But I don't think they will.

[quote author=Walter]This show clearly banks on dweebs investigating idiotic number games by employing TiVo pauses/zoom-ins in order to catch superficial trite shit that make them think the show is grander than it is.[/quote]

It often looks like trite shit, I will agree with that. One of the reasons I'm not participating in the ARG myself, I'm just checking up on the revelations and watching the videos. If I knew how critical you guys were I wouldn't even have mentioned it in the first place. =)

[quote author=Griffith No More!]
you might still like the revelations after the fact, but they won't have that limitless potential they have now.[/quote]

I don't get it, isn't every story about giving away bits of revelations on some level? What's different from, let's say BERSERK which have tons of mysteries waiting to be revealed. I don't know, maybe you are critical and pessimistic about our favorite manga too, but Aaz and Walter seem to be happy waiting for those mysteries to be revealed.

[quote author=Griffith No More!]When you have all the answers, when there's no wonder left, the wine loses its taste, the thrill is gone, whatever. Once the surprise of the season 3 finale wears off, it becomes just another common facet of the show in coming seasons, and all its secrets are revealed, it'll be nothing special anymore, and we'll move on to the next thing, just like with the hatch.[/quote]

This could be said about everything really. There are very few fictional works I'm into but I feel Lost is worth re-watching. I have not forgotten about the hatch and it will remain as one of those cool memories from this show, just like I will remember the past cool volumes of Berserk. =)

[quote author=Griffith No More!]And speaking of which, talking about the finale reminded of how awful Charlie's death was, it had holes in it big enough to swim through (literally)[/quote]

I was going to say something about this, but I realize I've been trying to rationalize his death ever since I saw it and trying to have it make sense. And having to rationalize and constantly defend a scene like that is not something I enjoy doing so I will agree with you again. I never thought of myself as overly optimistic but I guess I am one in the case of Lost. Discussing it with you guys though is starting to turn me into a pessimist :guts:

[quote author=Aazealh]Did Eko really have a black soul? [...]
And really, repenting for what and to whom? The whole way the conversation was conducted made the brother impersonator seem like a treacherous, malicious being to me. An entity arrogant enough to demand that a man seek its forgiveness, and "black" enough to call for his death when he refuses.[/quote]

Well, I saw it as a test. Eko was supposed to repent, not for the island or for this entity, but for himself. Eko was posing as a priest with high standards for morality, which is why the level of his test had to be that high. Hurley was tested by the same entity but his test involved the question of sanity rather than sin. Hurley was in as much danger but he made it thanks to Libby.

As for the coffin

[quote author=Aazealh]It's
Ben
. :isidro:[/quote]

Michael
. :void:
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

A.C said:
When the button was introduced everyone called bullshit, and right before the reveal the writers made us even more skeptical by introducing the Pearl station, but then we learn the button is actually real.

I don't think people called it bullshit because they thought it was fake, they called it bullshit because the whole scenario was bullshit. Like, it literally went from being the best drama on TV to being a show about people pushing a button, to quote America, "What the Hell happened?" =)

A.C said:
I don't get it, isn't every story about giving away bits of revelations on some level? What's different from, let's say BERSERK which have tons of mysteries waiting to be revealed. I don't know, maybe you are critical and pessimistic about our favorite manga too, but Aaz and Walter seem to be happy waiting for those mysteries to be revealed.

This could be said about everything really. There are very few fictional works I'm into but I feel Lost is worth re-watching. I have not forgotten about the hatch and it will remain as one of those cool memories from this show, just like I will remember the past cool volumes of Berserk. =)

Apples to oranges, my friend. I was actually going to use Berserk as example of something totally different from Lost (but bringing Berserk into would have been cheap *cough cough* =). Berserk is intentionally somewhat predictable, it basically tells you what's generally going to happen to a point in the big picture through foreshadowing and prophecy, creates an outline or the skeleton for a story arc, and then very deliberately builds a substantial plot you're supposed to be able to follow in similar fashion, while Lost is specifically designed so you don't know what's going on, you're flying by the seat of your pants and can't see what unpredictable twist or turn is coming. This doesn't speak to their relative quality or merit, each is effective in their own way, but the method and desired effect of the storytelling is totally different, one's an epic fantasy and the other's a mystery. You really couldn't compare two more unalike things.

I'd be careful with this line of comparison too, when it comes to possible Berserk blasphemy, the Aazperor is not as forgiving as I am. :void:
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
Re: Lost Season 4

Griffith No More! said:
And speaking of which, talking about the finale reminded of how awful Charlie's death was, it had holes in it big enough to swim through (literally), and now I've also written a huge post about Lost! UGH and double UGH, this... this...

Actually I can tell you I was pissed off at Charlie's death even more so then you! WHY DID HE SHUT THE DOOR? There was no reason to kill a perfectly good character in such a lame way. He simply could have actually walked out of the room as it was flooding then closed the door behind him and he would have been fine. :ganishka:

As for the coffin
This shows shitty writing.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Re: Lost Season 4

There's all that, plus he could have easily swam through that port hole, but most of all, the fact that the water wouldn't have risen above the level of the broken porthole due to the air pressure! So, at the height of fine writing, Charlie literally couldn't have died in his "unavoidable" death scenario, unless...

It must been special island physics! :troll:





P.S. A.C, wasn't that coffin a little small for Michael?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Lost Season 4

A.C said:
When the button was introduced everyone called bullshit

Well, I kind of liked that button myself, and I was happy that it was really cooling down a super bullshito-reactor. I still have qualms with season 2 though. :void:

A.C said:
Right now we're in doubt but I think it will change in Season 4. What I'm worried about is that alot of fans have been begging the writers not to make them the good guys and I would hate it if they started listening to them. But I don't think they will.

Unfortunately I think it's too late already. Several examples have already been given in the thread, and there are more to be found.

A.C said:
Well, I saw it as a test. Eko was supposed to repent, not for the island or for this entity, but for himself. Eko was posing as a priest with high standards for morality, which is why the level of his test had to be that high. Hurley was tested by the same entity but his test involved the question of sanity rather than sin. Hurley was in as much danger but he made it thanks to Libby.

Libby who was herself in that same mental hospital! Another unsolved mystery?! :isidro: Anyway, what you say here doesn't really challenge my views of the creature. It's still up to it to decide who's good to go and who's not, and the way it goes about it is deceiving. In any case, we know that Eko's death was written in as an emergency solution, and I don't think anything can change my opinion (and that of many others) that it sucked and wasn't really in line with what we'd seen of the character up to this point. I'm cool with the fact you like it and weren't bothered by Eko's disappearance though, to each his own.

Griffith No More! said:
I'd be careful with this line of comparison too, when it comes to possible Berserk blasphemy, the Aazperor is not as forgiving as I am. :void:

Hahaha, you know me all too well. This is a sound advice, A.C, I would follow it.

Ganishka.jpg

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
Actually I can tell you I was pissed off at Charlie's death even more so then you! WHY DID HE SHUT THE DOOR? There was no reason to kill a perfectly good character in such a lame way. He simply could have actually walked out of the room as it was flooding then closed the door behind him and he would have been fine.

Yeah, this was really clumsily done. The whole thing had me rolling my eyes for 20 minutes.
 
Re: Lost Season 4

Griffith No More! said:
Still, at this point I've made my peace with it and it's lesser place in the story, they obviously went in a different direction with the purpose of it altogether, which I'm sure had nothing to do with the original intent. It goes back to the basic catch 22 of these kinds of shows, in that everything becomes less interesting just by the fact that it's explained at all, no matter what the explanation, because it won't be as compelling as the mystery and anticipation. So, they move on and make up a new compelling mystery. Just watch, the end of season 3 won't be nearly as good once they explain it...

Well put. I feel used. :serpico:
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Lost Season 4

All the LOST discussion here caused a fever dream in me aided by cold medication. Overnight I dreamed I'd bought Lost Seasons 1-3 on DVD.

When I woke up today to check my bank account, I HAD BOUGHT THEM. Fuck you amazon one-click purchase...

PS: Season 3's on sale at bestbuy.com for $30. So much for that deal. Maybe someone else here can take advantage of it.
 
Top Bottom