Void's Ascend to Godhand

[Kederlilahmacun]

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum but I'm glad to finally have some people to talk about this masterpiece. I hope I chose the right category for posting this whole "theory" if you could call it one. If I did anything wrong, I apologize for any inconvenience.

So, I have been thinking. If we are to assume that SK is indeed the Supreme King Gaiseric, and that he lost his whole kingdom to an eclipse, we could argue that he has a serious beef with Void considering all the events that has taken so far. (Understatement of the century perhaps)

So, an eclipse takes place every 216 years. Void and SK has been around for over a millenium. An Incarnation Ceremony takes place every 1000 years.

When we see the memories that reside within the Berserker Armor, we see an open field with a Brand of Sacrifice alongside an obvious eclipse.

The first point I would like to touch on is, do you think Void was Incarnated in this supposed ceremony? We know the parallels in Berserk. Griffith is the latest member of the Godhand. He is the one who was incarnated in the last ceremony. Could the parallel to this event be Void's incarnation? If so, it begs the question:

Why haven't we seen Void in the "human form?" My guess is, he is like a third party watching how the causality unfolds. It's like he has some alternative motives other than just serving as a Godhand even more so than Femto.

Or, I might have just miscalculated everything. If that is the case, feel free to correct me. Or if there is anything you might want to add, feel free to do so.

The other point I would like to touch on is again, about a parallel that is yet to emerge.

So, when we dive into the memories of the Berserker Armor, we see King Gaiseric holding her beloved "Lady Priestess of the Cherry Blossoms." Considering all the parallels, I would assume that Guts will go something similar.

Let's dive deeper. Gaiseric went through an eclipse that he somehow survived (just like Guts) what if Lady was there with him too? Then, I would assume she survived too. (Just like Casca) Then the ceremony happened. Somethinf happened and she lost her life. SK couldn't do anything about it and consequently, his rage (Berserker Armor) consumed him.

Throught the events of Berserk, we are constantly reminded of how Guts defy fate/destiny against all odds. What if all these memories are foreshadowing an event that will take place? What if everything that took place 1000 years ago is happening again, but with a different outcome? Guts is a "Struggler" after all.

Waiting for your opinions. Thank you for reading

 

[Aazealh]

So, I have been thinking. If we are to assume that SK is indeed the Supreme King Gaiseric, and that he lost his whole kingdom to an eclipse

Gaizeric's capital city was destroyed, not his empire that spanned the whole continent.

When we see the memories that reside within the Berserker Armor, we see an open field with a Brand of Sacrifice alongside an obvious eclipse.

Let's be precise here. First we see an alternate dimension, similar to but different from that in which Griffith's ceremony took place. There's no hand there, but Void and four others standing on a pedestal. The Vortex of Souls is visible above, taking the place of the "black sun". By and large, it looks like the event that subsequent ceremonies might have been modeled after. Then we cut to Gaizeric holding his beloved in his arms. As she dies, he sees the brand burning on the landscape down below, then dies himself.

The first point I would like to touch on is, do you think Void was Incarnated in this supposed ceremony? We know the parallels in Berserk. Griffith is the latest member of the Godhand. He is the one who was incarnated in the last ceremony. Could the parallel to this event be Void's incarnation?

Given what we see in the first scene, it doesn't look like Void was incarnated, no. You should be wary of trying to find exact parallels for everything. Some things resemble each other, but they don't have to be the exact same. In fact we know they aren't.

Why haven't we seen Void in the "human form?" My guess is, he is like a third party watching how the causality unfolds. It's like he has some alternative motives other than just serving as a Godhand even more so than Femto.

We haven't seen a human form because Void doesn't have a body of flesh in the current era of the story. It's as simple as that. But it makes no sense to portray him as a neutral observer when he's clearly the mastermind behind the God Hand. They all have their own goals, but these are part of an overarching plan, and the one who designed said plan is Void.

The other point I would like to touch on is again, about a parallel that is yet to emerge.

So, when we dive into the memories of the Berserker Armor, we see King Gaiseric holding her beloved "Lady Priestess of the Cherry Blossoms." Considering all the parallels, I would assume that Guts will go something similar.

Pretty sure that's already happened.

Unless you mean that Casca should die in Guts' arms before he himself dies, in which case... I don't think so.

Gaiseric went through an eclipse that he somehow survived (just like Guts) what if Lady was there with him too? Then, I would assume she survived too. (Just like Casca) Then the ceremony happened. Somethinf happened and she lost her life.

The woman bears the brand on her shoulder, which means she was sacrificed as part of a ceremony. No doubt about that. The real question at the heart of this flashback is whether the first scene (in the alternate dimension) directly precedes the second one (death atop the burning... city?) or if there's a time lapse between the two. For things to mirror what happened with Guts & Griffith, there would need to be two distinct ceremonies, but it doesn't look like it's what happened. It seems to have been part of a single event.

First we're told this is the moment Gaizeric died, so showing us something that happened years before wouldn't make sense. Then there's the fact it works as it is: Gaizeric fought Void, was mortally wounded, then returned to the real world and died holding his beloved in his arms while his city burned. It even works with the old (unreliable) tale of the city's destruction as recounted by Charlotte in volume 10.

The implication is that the ceremony's purpose wasn't for Void to be incarnated, or at least that it occurred differently from Femto's and didn't succeed. There are a few possible scenarios based on that. There is another unknown, which is what happened to Void in the place now known as Saint Albion's monastery. There are also a number of possibilities there. Personally, my preferred line of thinking revolves around Void being the first human to undergo that transformation. On that note, you may be interested in reading what I had to say after episode 362 came out.

SK couldn't do anything about it and consequently, his rage (Berserker Armor) consumed him.

That's not what happened. He simply died from the wounds he had sustained while fighting. We see that he's conscious as he holds her in his arms, then his consciousness fades as he dies. He doesn't go berserk at that time, and the armor doesn't "consume" people anyway, that's not how it works.

Throught the events of Berserk, we are constantly reminded of how Guts defy fate/destiny against all odds.

Guts is really good at surviving – and sometimes even succeeding – against the odds, but he's not "defying fate" per se. See this handy explanation on the topic.

What if all these memories are foreshadowing an event that will take place? What if everything that took place 1000 years ago is happening again, but with a different outcome? Guts is a "Struggler" after all.

That's not possible. The "once in a thousand years" event has already reoccurred: it was Femto's incarnation. Haven't we been talking about the similarities between the two? The real question is what Void's ultimate goal is. What was he trying to achieve a thousand years ago that he couldn't? Because that's what it comes down to. That's why the God Hand is recreating the conditions of the world from back then, with Griffith playing the role of Gaizeric. And that's what Guts and his allies would have ultimately thwarted.

 

[Kederlilahmacun]

Gaizeric's capital city was destroyed, not his empire that spanned the whole continent.



Let's be precise here. First we see an alternate dimension, similar to but different from that in which Griffith's ceremony took place. There's no hand there, but Void and four others standing on a pedestal. The Vortex of Souls is visible above, taking the place of the "black sun". By and large, it looks like the event that subsequent ceremonies might have been modeled after. Then we cut to Gaizeric holding his beloved in his arms. As she dies, he sees the brand burning on the landscape down below, then dies himself.



Given what we see in the first scene, it doesn't look like Void was incarnated, no. You should be wary of trying to find exact parallels for everything. Some things resemble each other, but they don't have to be the exact same. In fact we know they aren't.



We haven't seen a human form because Void doesn't have a body of flesh in the current era of the story. It's as simple as that. But it makes no sense to portray him as a neutral observer when he's clearly the mastermind behind the God Hand. They all have their own goals, but these are part of an overarching plan, and the one who designed said plan is Void.



Pretty sure that's already happened.

Unless you mean that Casca should die in Guts' arms before he himself dies, in which case... I don't think so.



The woman bears the brand on her shoulder, which means she was sacrificed as part of a ceremony. No doubt about that. The real question at the heart of this flashback is whether the first scene (in the alternate dimension) directly precedes the second one (death atop the burning... city?) or if there's a time lapse between the two. For things to mirror what happened with Guts & Griffith, there would need to be two distinct ceremonies, but it doesn't look like it's what happened. It seems to have been part of a single event.

First we're told this is the moment Gaizeric died, so showing us something that happened years before wouldn't make sense. Then there's the fact it works as it is: Gaizeric fought Void, was mortally wounded, then returned to the real world and died holding his beloved in his arms while his city burned. It even works with the old (unreliable) tale of the city's destruction as recounted by Charlotte in volume 10.

The implication is that the ceremony's purpose wasn't for Void to be incarnated, or at least that it occurred differently from Femto's and didn't succeed. There are a few possible scenarios based on that. There is another unknown, which is what happened to Void in the place now known as Saint Albion's monastery. There are also a number of possibilities there. Personally, my preferred line of thinking revolves around Void being the first human to undergo that transformation. On that note, you may be interested in reading what I had to say after episode 362 came out.



That's not what happened. He simply died from the wounds he had sustained while fighting. We see that he's conscious as he holds her in his arms, then his consciousness fades as he dies. He doesn't go berserk at that time, and the armor doesn't "consume" people anyway, that's not how it works.



Guts is really good at surviving – and sometimes even succeeding – against the odds, but he's not "defying fate" per se. See this handy explanation on the topic.



That's not possible. The "once in a thousand years" event has already reoccurred: it was Femto's incarnation. Haven't we been talking about the similarities between the two? The real question is what Void's ultimate goal is. What was he trying to achieve a thousand years ago that he couldn't? Because that's what it comes down to. That's why the God Hand is recreating the conditions of the world from back then, with Griffith playing the role of Gaizeric. And that's what Guts and his allies would have ultimately thwarted.

I appreciate the reply. Seems like I misinterpereted somr thing as I suspected. Still, I would like to see Void as a being with a different motive other than just doing what he wishes to serve the Evil itself. Rather than a neutral force, someone with a goal. Just like Griffith in a way I guess.

 

[Aazealh]

I would like to see Void as a being with a different motive other than just doing what he wishes to serve the Evil itself. Rather than a neutral force, someone with a goal. Just like Griffith in a way I guess.

Oh I think he's definitely got a clear objective of his own. Just not something as pedestrian as ruling over a country.

 

[Goat]

That's not what happened. He simply died from the wounds he had sustained while fighting. We see that he's conscious as he holds her in his arms, then his consciousness fades as he dies. He doesn't go berserk at that time, and the armor doesn't "consume" people anyway, that's not how it works.

That's a maybe minor, but interesting topic to me. Maybe I'm overthinking and becoming a little pedant here , but I'd like to dissect one specific aspect: the flashback is introduced by Hanarr with the purpose to "show how the Berserker armor consumed his previous owner". But then - as you confirm - Gaizeric actually dies in a peaceful state, while holding her beloved - his death doesn't seem to be directly linked to the armor - even if surely the armor has a direct role, due to its mechanics and the bleeding it induces on its owner.
I don't know how to formulate my doubt in words, but doesn't this somehow contradict the motivation which leads Hanarr to show the flashback to Guts? I always intended at the flashback as a "warning" to Guts regarding the armor usage itself.

 

[Aazealh]

Maybe I'm overthinking and becoming a little pedant here

, but I'd like to dissect one specific aspect: the flashback is introduced by Hanarr with the purpose to "show how the Berserker armor consumed his previous owner".

Actually, since you want to be pedantic, what Hanarr says is: "I'm going to show him the memories of the blood ingrained in this armor. How the life of the previous owner was eaten up by the berserk."

I don't know how to formulate my doubt in words, but doesn't this somehow contradict the motivation which leads Hanarr to show the flashback to Guts? I always intended at the flashback as a "warning" to Guts regarding the armor usage itself.

It's not necessarily a contradiction, especially if you consider the fact the gap between the two scenes (rushing toward Void & then waking up with your dying love in your arms) is because he wasn't in control of his actions. It's like being blackout drunk. And then you can wonder how she died exactly. Gaizeric was probably mortally wounded while fighting the bad guys, but what about her? Well, maybe in that scene his other arm is holding a sword plunged in her belly.

 

[Walter]

But then - as you confirm - Gaizeric actually dies in a peaceful state, while holding her beloved - his death doesn't seem to be directly linked to the armor - even if surely the armor has a direct role, due to its mechanics and the bleeding it induces on its owner.

But Gaizeric didn't die at peace. He bled out wearing the armor, harboring a grudge that fueled him for 1,000 years. That's what Ged himself says in 363— Gedflynn: Only deep grace and grudge, and endless rage have motivated him.

 

[Wyld Dreams]

Let's be precise here. First we see an alternate dimension, similar to but different from that in which Griffith's ceremony took place. There's no hand there, but Void and four others standing on a pedestal. The Vortex of Souls is visible above, taking the place of the "black sun". By and large, it looks like the event that subsequent ceremonies might have been modeled after. Then we cut to Gaizeric holding his beloved in his arms. As she dies, he sees the brand burning on the landscape down below, then dies himself.

To be really precise, the "hand" only came after a precise point in Advent chapter when they say "Bring the child to altar". Before that ... they were just standing on that giant face motif with void on its nose.

This means, presence of hand in that ceremony may happen later and was not shown to us. We only got to see opening of the ceremony.

 

[Aazealh]

To be really precise, the "hand" only came after a precise point in Advent chapter when they say "Bring the child to altar". Before that ... they were just standing on that giant face motif with void on its nose.

You're missing the point. I was recounting the sequence of events to make it clearer to Kederlilahmacun why this is unlikely to have been an incarnation ceremony. I pointed out in passing that the scenery is quite different from what we see during Femto's birth because I think it's important to keep in mind these ceremonies are distinct and therefore can have different origins and outcomes.

This means, presence of hand in that ceremony may happen later and was not shown to us. We only got to see opening of the ceremony.

No, because there are already five people standing on that pedestal. What you're proposing makes no sense.

 

[Wyld Dreams]

You're missing the point. I was recounting the sequence of events to make it clearer to Kederlilahmacun why this is unlikely to have been an incarnation ceremony. I pointed out in passing that the scenery is quite different from what we see during Femto's birth because I think it's important to keep in mind these ceremonies are distinct and therefore can have different origins and outcomes.

I think the biggest explanation is Gutz own assertion that this was an Eclipse event. I doubt Miura will miss mentioning Incarnation "festival" in such a key revelation, if it were intended.

No, because there are already five people standing on that pedestal. What you're proposing makes no sense.

Presence of hand is not guaranteed at all times. The hand acts like an altar for occultation. It is built after the arrival of all the God Hand members. It is not present all the time. It is NOT know what happens after occultation is complete. During the only chance we saw the event, our viewpoint switches pretty quickly together with SK.

The Hand altar may just crumble and be gone for all we know. We actually do have a hint of that.

Also, we do not know at what point did that vision was shown to us in the eclipse event.

In my humble opinion, we should not derive too much information from absence of Hand-altar.

Makes sense?

 

[Aazealh]

I think the biggest explanation is Gutz own assertion that this was an Eclipse event. I doubt Miura will miss mentioning Incarnation "festival" in such a key revelation, if it were intended.

The character's name is spelled "Guts". Also, I think the detailed explanation I gave Kederlilahmacun was more valuable than you give it credit for, and that the ways in which that ceremony differs from Griffith's bears paying attention to. The fact Guts thought to himself this was an Occultation-type event isn't reason enough to disregard them, especially since Femto's incarnation ceremony was explicitly a mirrored Eclipse.

Beyond that though, I have to wonder what exactly is your goal here. This thread's discussion had been concluded months before you revived it, and you only did so to nitpick on something I had said in passing. And now, after I stressed to you what the original point was, you try to argue some more about other trivialities. I'm just curious because this serves no purpose whatsoever.

Presence of hand is not guaranteed at all times. The hand acts like an altar for occultation. It is built after the arrival of all the God Hand members. It is not present all the time. It is NOT know what happens after occultation is complete. During the only chance we saw the event, our viewpoint switches pretty quickly together with SK.

The Hand altar may just crumble and be gone for all we know. We actually do have a hint of that.
Also, we do not know at what point did that vision was shown to us in the eclipse event.
In my humble opinion, we should not derive too much information from absence of Hand-altar.
Makes sense?

Actually no, this does not make sense to me. It's true, the hand is not there when Griffith's ceremony begins. And yes, it serves as an altar. But during the flashback Guts sees in episode 362, Void and his cronies aren't milling around. They're standing on an altar, all five of them. It just isn't shaped like a hand.

Now, what you're not addressing here (despite my efforts) is that the entire scenery is very different from what we see in volumes 12 and 13. It's not just the hand (or lack thereof). The ground and walls are formed by slithering tentacles and the "sky" is the ocean of souls with the Vortex acting as the equivalent of the black sun. Even the creatures Gaizeric fights are different from the apostles we know.

So while this is definitely a kind of Eclipse ceremony, as Guts notes, it's clearly distinct from the one he went through. And that's not a coincidence. It's different on purpose. By that same token, if there was meant to be a giant hand there, Miura would have drawn it. Its absence is deliberate. All those details are deliberate. And they tell us something, if we are willing to listen.

 

[Wyld Dreams]

The character's name is spelled "Guts".

My mistake.

The character's name is spelled "Guts". Also, I think the detailed explanation I gave Kederlilahmacun was more valuable than you give it credit for, and that the ways in which that ceremony differs from Griffith's bears paying attention to. The fact Guts thought to himself this was an Occultation-type event isn't reason enough to disregard them, especially since Femto's incarnation ceremony was explicitly a mirrored Eclipse.

Beyond that though, I have to wonder what exactly is your goal here. This thread's discussion had been concluded months before you revived it, and you only did so to nitpick on something I had said in passing. And now, after I stressed to you what the original point was, you try to argue some more about other trivialities. I'm just curious because this serves no purpose whatsoever.

I do not think that I am devaluing your post and no, I do not give you any less credit. Had that been, well, going to Berserk reddit for all the kicks and giggles is way easier. I am here for a very simple reason : Folks who have followed Berserk for VERY long time are here. Folks who have spent decades slicing and dicing this story and discussing it are here. In absence of original author, this is the best place I got to tease out what way the unfinished work should have gone. How can I believe that your opinion is of any less value and yet try to discuss the story with you?

My point was rather simple. We have a very direct revelation and statement in the manga that the said event is Occultation-type, for me that is the biggest reason and sufficient. That said, it certainly does NOT mean that other reasons are not there or do not have value.

I joined this board and read Berserk pretty late -- Actually after passing of Mr. Miura, which means, there is already a lot that has been discussed about the manga. In the beginning I ended up "reviving" long dead threads because I believed I had something to contribute. Now, typically I try to avoid that and only touch threads that are newer. To be very honest, since the no new REAL content or story on this manga can actually come to us (I do not consider continuation having much relation to the actual work), speculation and discussion with other folks who know this story for much longer than I do is the only real option left. IMHO, speculation section of the forum is the most important one right now.

If my posting in existing threads bothers you --since you are one of the site owners/admin-- I can start new threads with links and quoting old posts.

If you believe I am posting too much, I can throttle my posts to maximum one per week or slower. If you wish that I should not post, most humbly I will leave.

As they say this is your party.

Actually no, this does not make sense to me. It's true, the hand is not there when Griffith's ceremony begins. And yes, it serves as an altar. But during the flashback Guts sees in episode 362, Void and his cronies aren't milling around. They're standing on an altar, all five of them. It just isn't shaped like a hand.

IMHO, it is merely one memory and image. Rest is our interpretation and extrapolation from that. Berserk has a habit of throwing curved balls with similarities to its own history of the world without being exactly same.

Now, what you're not addressing here (despite my efforts) is that the entire scenery is very different from what we see in volumes 12 and 13. It's not just the hand (or lack thereof). The ground and walls are formed by slithering tentacles and the "sky" is the ocean of souls with the Vortex acting as the equivalent of the black sun. Even the creatures Gaizeric fights are different from the apostles we know.

Indeed the scenery is very different. But we have only seen one single image. And we have only one other occultation-event to compare it with. There can be many reasons why imagery is different. The author is no longer with us to validate which reason is the real one. He might have wanted to further add details to that vision later on, which unfortunately he was never able to do so.

One of my goals on this forum is to discuss those possibilities.

So while this is definitely a kind of Eclipse ceremony, as Guts notes, it's clearly distinct from the one he went through. And that's not a coincidence. It's different on purpose. By that same token, if there was meant to be a giant hand there, Miura would have drawn it. Its absence is deliberate. All those details are deliberate. And they tell us something, if we are willing to listen.

It is certainly different looking. I am not really convinced it is fundamentally different. If you want we can talk about it more in here or may be in another thread.

 

[Aazealh]

I do not think that I am devaluing your post and no, I do not give you any less credit. Had that been, well, going to Berserk reddit for all the kicks and giggles is way easier. I am here for a very simple reason : Folks who have followed Berserk for VERY long time are here. Folks who have spent decades slicing and dicing this story and discussing it are here. In absence of original author, this is the best place I got to tease out what way the unfinished work should have gone. How can I believe that your opinion is of any less value and yet try to discuss the story with you?

My point was rather simple. We have a very direct revelation and statement in the manga that the said event is Occultation-type, for me that is the biggest reason and sufficient. That said, it certainly does NOT mean that other reasons are not there or do not have value.

I was just trying to tell you that no, actually, Guts' comment is not "sufficient" to explain the nature of the event. It's merely there as a confirmation to the reader that yes, this is indeed what it looks like. But it's the scenes Miura drew that are our main source of information.

Also, regardless of what you say now, your response was just brushing aside what I said.

I joined this board and read Berserk pretty late -- Actually after passing of Mr. Miura, which means, there is already a lot that has been discussed about the manga. In the beginning I ended up "reviving" long dead threads because I believed I had something to contribute. Now, typically I try to avoid that and only touch threads that are newer. To be very honest, since the no new REAL content or story on this manga can actually come to us (I do not consider continuation having much relation to the actual work), speculation and discussion with other folks who know this story for much longer than I do is the only real option left. IMHO, speculation section of the forum is the most important one right now.

If my posting in existing threads bothers you --since you are one of the site owners/admin-- I can start new threads with links and quoting old posts.

I just asked because I found it a little odd that you kept reviving threads to argue on points of detail. I think it's easy to see how it could come across as a little passive aggressive. Making new threads to quote old posts wouldn't make a difference either. Typically if you want to discuss something specific, it's best to make your own thread and expound your own thoughts on the matter. That said, if you really just want to quote my previous posts with points you disagree with, I won't stop you. I might stop responding after a while though.

IMHO, it is merely one memory and image. Rest is our interpretation and extrapolation from that. Berserk has a habit of throwing curved balls with similarities to its own history of the world without being exactly same.

I don't think Berserk really "has a habit of throwing curveballs" like that, actually. And as I said, because we're shown a few definite images of that scene, it's pretty clear to me that Miura used them to convey everything he wanted to. If there had been a hand in that ceremony, it would have been in one of the pictures. In fact it would make no sense not to include it. The idea that the scene we're seeing takes place just before or after the hand was there is stupid to me, not to mention that it simply doesn't seem to be the case from what we see of the event (five members, monsters coming out, etc.).

Indeed the scenery is very different. But we have only seen one single image. And we have only one other occultation-event to compare it with. There can be many reasons why imagery is different. The author is no longer with us to validate which reason is the real one. He might have wanted to further add details to that vision later on, which unfortunately he was never able to do so.

You said earlier that speculation is the most important thing right now, but this isn't valuable speculation to me. Saying "we can't be sure of anything" and vaguely gesturing at other possibilities isn't useful in this context, especially without any mention of why they would be worth exploring.

What you're arguing is essentially that the absence of a hand is not deliberate on Miura's part as a way to establish the uniqueness of that ceremony, and is not indicative of anything in particular. I strongly disagree with that. I think that deeply underestimates Kentarou Miura's visual storytelling. My original point was – and remains – that we're shown a scenery that's similar yet quite different from the one in Griffith's ceremony, including because there is no hand.

It is certainly different looking. I am not really convinced it is fundamentally different. If you want we can talk about it more in here or may be in another thread.

To be honest I'm not particularly interested in discussing it with you further. I think we've already conveyed our perspectives.

 

[Wyld Dreams]

Fair enough!