This attack on wokeness does always come down to flat out intolerance. Words are deceiving and are helping a bunch of people smooth out the ugly truth of their emotions. What do you define by "woke" and if you say "pushing of a left leaning political agenda" (which parts?) keep going down that rabbit hole and distill what the wokeness of the show is. It will come down to there are some black and gay people in it.
What are you watching? (television thread)
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This attack on wokeness does always come down to flat out intolerance. Words are deceiving and are helping a bunch of people smooth out the ugly truth of their emotions. What do you define by "woke" and if you say "pushing of a left leaning political agenda" (which parts?) keep going down that rabbit hole and distill what the wokeness of the show is. It will come down to there are some black and gay people in it.
Like I said, you can't bring up such criticisms without being accused of racism or intolerance, which seems to be what you're doing here to us here. It's like you're making my point for me. Can't say I'm not offended at being called a racist, though.
I can't speak for Beast, but like I said to Aaz in my previous post, I don't care if a show has black or gay people if it's natural of them to be there, such as a show set in our modern day society. I'm annoyed by forced diversity / casting. That's it. If that sounds racist / intolerant to you, so be it and I don't think anything else I say will convince you otherwise.
I'm ethnically Arab, but I will still dislike it if they hired a whole bunch of Arab actors to show up in Rings of Power. They'd be out of place.
That's what I meant. And basically what I replied to Aazealh in my previous post.
What is the place they'd be out of? A fictional one? Why then even try to apply a real concept such as human race to fictional races like elves and orcs and shit? There will always be a human race portraying a non human one, i really honestly and truly dont see why one should have precedence over the other?
There will always be someone who doesn't like something, and typically the more popular anything gets, the more hate it gathers. But if you let random people dictate your own perception, you're going to be leading a very unfulfilling life. Tolkien's doing fine, honestly. Better than fine. He's getting more respect and recognition now than ever. When I read The Lord of the Rings, it was so niche, it felt like I had discovered some hidden thing.
Hah! Then you shouldn't be making these grand statements about who's the best ever.
Guys, "woke" has literally become a dogwhistle for racist shit. That's a fact. Like Walter mentioned above, it originated specifically within black communities to describe awareness of racial injustices. The fact it's now used pejoratively should tell you everything you need to know about it.
Personally, I'm a purist's purist and a man's man. Which is why I haven't watched any of these shows, because I knew they would be garbage anyway. Not because they used a black actor for a white character, but because the way TV shows and films are produced nowadays does not emphasize quality and certainly not faithfulness. That's really what you should keep in mind: whatever actor isn't to your liking didn't replace a more appropriate person and didn't ruin the show. It would have been bad anyway.
Like I said above, you're thinking about this wrong. The show wasn't ruined because they inserted a couple token characters so that they could check the "diversity" box on their Excel spreadsheet. It sucks and was always going to suck because it's been designed by committee to appeal to the widest possible audience and generate as much revenue as possible while costing as little as it can. That's also why so few original stories get made anymore, because adapting something that already has a fanbase is cheaper and safer. Do you see it yet? The only agenda being pushed on you is "maximizing profits at the littlest possible expense".
Hmmm... Ok, I understood what you mean.
I very rarely watch any new series because I have very little time for that and clearly the quality is very low nowadays.
The last one I've watched and enjoyed was Archive 81, and it was months ago.
I suppose I'm missing the forest for the tree in this case. Yeah, in the grand state of things, he is a respected figure. Alright, you've convinced me here.
Hah! Then you shouldn't be making these grand statements about who's the best ever.
Haha.
I mean, we all make such grand statements from time to time. Almost everyone here calls Miura the best mangaka ever (and I strongly agree), but one can criticize such statements with similar logic.
If that's the case, then I admit to using the term "woke" wrong, as I wasn't aware of its history. My bad.
I still stand by my statements about forced casting. It may bother me less with time as I grow, but I dislike it immensely as of now. And I certainly take issue with being called intolerant because of such a stance, as Nothing accused me of being above.
In other words, they don't even genuinely care about things like diversity and so on. Not surprised. But I see where you're coming from now, and it makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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I've read a lot of stuff though.
That's why I can say he's the greatest ever, not just the greatest mangaka, the greatest storyteller! And it can only be true, since it's my opinion (and I'm always right 
). I'm being heavy-handed on purpose, so I'm sure you get my point: it comes down to personal taste in the end.A real
I mean I get it, and there's ways to do it tastefully or not... But again, these shows aren't being lovingly crafted with quality in mind. It's paint by numbers shit, even when they're touting high budgets and whatnot. The budget all goes into the visual effects, and sadly the artists aren't even paid well.
Of course not, lol. They couldn't give less of a shit. A producer who actually cared for "diversity" (which is itself a ridiculous euphemism to mean anyone that's not a straight white man) would let "diverse" people make movies about the stories they want to tell. Which to be fair does happen every now and then, but you have to look at smaller budget movies for that.
I've read a lot of stuff though.
Haha. I read a lot of stuff too, so I can tell you the greatest storyteller ever is...Naughty Dog!
Okay, I almost barfed just making that joke. On a serious note, I think one can demonstrate that Miura was the best storyteller of our time, or his lifetime at least. But I think we've derailed this thread enough, so I will stop here.
A realbook snobconnoisseur of literature would tell you Hemingway steamrolls Tolkien so thoroughly it's pathetic to even bring it up. Tolkien was a mere genre writer. But then one might say Marcel Proust surpasses that poor American drunk, and what to say of the great Tolstoy? But of course, if you like the Russian language, as you should if you're to pretend reading Tolstoy, then Pushkin is the man to hold in the highest regard, is he not? And yet I'd rather read Ryûnosuke Akutagawa when it comes to the classics. But yeah none of these clowns hold a candle to Miura.
Ugh. Literary fiction. Yuck. By the way, it's hilarious to me that they call fantasy authors "genre authors" when literary fiction is also a "genre". Everyone is a genre author!
Of all those names, Ryûnosuke Akutagawa is the only one I don't recognize. So I'm gonna check it out!
One example that worked for me, despite the casting, is the Witcher Netflix series. It had its flaws, but I enjoyed it a lot. So yeah, there are ways to do it tastefully, as you said.
Wow...it is surprising how many words end up being secret mines to step on. I guess one really has to measure their words carefully. Anyway, I'm finding more and more fantasy books being published by "diverse" people nowadays, which is great. Maybe movies will one day catch up.
Anyway, as always, I learn something new from our conversations, Aaz. Thanks for the discussion.
Strangely enough, I was talking about this very subject with a friend a couple of days ago. I’m parroting a lot of what Aaz has already said, but it’s funny how many “evil liberal agenda” complaints are really just criticisms of our society/businesses basically transforming any attempt at art into a mere product to be consumed. “Forced diversity?” “Hollywood is creatively bankrupt?” Movies/games made by focus testing and surveys? All complaints of a soulless machine strip mining our collective culture for profit.
Knowing that, I can only imagine how disingenuous (or utterly naive) people must appear to historically underrepresented groups when they complain about their inclusion by invoking artistic vision.
Knowing that, I can only imagine how disingenuous (or utterly naive) people must appear to historically underrepresented groups when they complain about their inclusion by invoking artistic vision.
You have no idea. Hijacking the meaning of words to shape discourse is as old as time itself, and still as effective as ever. It's been especially prevalent in US politics over the past few decades of course, but other countries and languages aren't immune either. I was going to give examples but I think we've derailed the thread enough for today.
Good point, I guess that's one good side effect, although in truth the publishing business is still as ugly as ever. Anyhow, by letting in more voices, we can only get fresher perspectives and different types of stories and worlds, which in turn will inspire others. Everybody wins.
NightCrawler
Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
This Berserk 97 erasure will not stand. For all its faults, in some ways it improves on the manga.
Teach us the ways.
The 1997 adaptation is what I meant by "mediocre". That might have been a bit harsh, but I can't agree that it improves on the manga in any way. Unless you mean that it has music or something.
NightCrawler
Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
In short the 97 anime, solely as a 25ep Golden Age adaptation, was better than the manga in certain aspects because it edited out several fantastical elements before the Eclipse, making it all the more impactful.
I'm a fan of the Black Swordsman arc, but only as someone who read the manga after seeing the anime, and I believe that first episode handled it pretty well in establishing present Guts without unveiling too much of Berserk's world and how the God Hand functions.
I didn't need to see Puck, or later the Skull Knight either. The show has just enough ominous and foreboding incidents.
There's a few more things I appreciated being left out of the anime. The omission of Wyald for example, we didn't need another brutal rapist, Casca's questionable role in it was unnecessary, it feels like filler and deflates the impact and shock of the Eclipse. For me it's the lowest point of the manga at that time. Other things, like Guts' traumatic past, are hinted at and didn't need to be shown, like the King of Midland not forcing himself on Charlotte. More subtext, less rapes.
If we take out Adon's repetitive scenes, the whole anime works because it feels more grounded, the removal of fantastical elements was important for the pacing, and the ones that were there added a sense of mystery and foreshadowing. I believe Miura's involvement was key for these changes to happen.
Does it make it a great adaptation of the source material? Probably not, but as a self contained story it works incredibly well.
Also the soundtrack is god tier and half of why the show is remarkable.
That anime is the main reason for the existence of the fanbase in the West, so calling it mediocre is some revisionist/manga purist bs.
"Keep the bad takes coming people."
More jarring, more like. The presence of fantastical elements before the Eclipse makes it more believable. That's why they're there. Switching from pure realism to the horror of the Eclipse without any of the fantastical seeds may have been more "impactful", but not in a good way.
Black Swordsman's importance to the story can't be understated though. It establishes what kind of story we're going to be told. Other than that, the presence of characters such as Puck so early on not only plants the seeds for further layers of this world (i.e. it's not only horror and demons), but also adds much needed humor and levity (which also tells us what kind of story this is. In other words, not just darkness and folks getting raped).
Wyald's purpose is not just to show Guts' progression as a warrior, but to demonstrate his capability to handle such monsters at that point in the story. It makes his survival of the Eclipse more believable. Casca's role is important too. If anything, this part enhances the Eclipse, as it serves as a contrast between the two situations (as in, nothing they do during the Eclipse could have gotten them out of the situation, as opposed to the Wyald fight).
The stuff with the "rapes" needed to be shown to be impactful, I'd say. Especially Guts traumatic past. They hinted at this in the 2012 films, and that had no impact at all. It was just awkward.
I think this can be answered with similar points as above.
Can't argue with that. Hirasawa is a beast!
I'm personally not interested in labelling the anime, since it falls far short of the manga anyway.
Anyway, those are my two cents regarding this topic.
NightCrawler
Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
If you're going to be like that, I can play this game better than you.
Do you really need to see even more monsters than the ones that are shown to know that they are coming? The seeds are there, I don't need more than one character saying to Guts that he's doomed to get the hint. In manga release time, it makes sense, more reminders here and there, in anime, it gets repetitive.
Within the specific arc the anime is adapting, Puck is superfluous.
People always use this argument and underestimate the suspension of disbelief most people are willing to give when seeing the main character fighting monsters. Or are we in that state of fandom where we talk about power creep and power levels and how Guts would not have killed that many apostles without a sword at that point in the story, etc, etc. We don't need Wyald to remind that Guts can survive in extreme situations. It's filler and it's gross and greatly lessens the impact of the Eclipse.
What? Casca's role is important how? Rape fodder for the nth time? Enhances the eclipse? It lessens it because it desensitizes the reader. But maybe it's like Lucas said "it's like poetry, it rhymes", in this case she only almost gets raped, one volume later she's raped twice, it's such an important plot difference, that Miura should keep this motif in every arc (he kinda does).
Guts has a severe reaction to being touched, do you need it to be spelled out?
As for the rapes, I don't mind most depictions of sexual assault in the manga. But I do think Casca’s situation is unique. She’s sexually assaulted significantly more than any other character in the manga. Are those scenes all needed? No. I got the idea pretty early that Berserk is a brutal world, thanks.
But yeah, I definitely prefer the way the anime gradually introduced the threat of the supernatural, it feels and flows better that way, and the open ending was perfect to make you want to read the manga (crucial to why the fanbase outside of Japan exists in the firsts place). But a show has to work as a show, not cater to what came before and what happens after, or for fanservice of unneeded characters that are just gonna confuse the casual viewer. The important beats and the three main characters are fleshed out. Mood, atmosphere, pacing is mostly hitting on high levels. Literal adaptations don't necessarily mean quality, as they try to cram in as many information and plot as possible and it becomes a bloated mess. More often than not, limitations and constraints of time and money bring out great creative solutions if it's a work of passion, and also not discarding the importance of the deep involvement of the original creator (which clearly wasn't there in further adaptations).
I've shown Berserk 97 to many friends and watched it in every relationship I've been, and got almost all of them to buy the manga. I can only remember two people that thought the anime's omissions were important to the story. But the rest are probably just a bunch of casuals, not "true" fans, so what do they know.
I mean... I'm still waiting for you to explain to me why The Wire Season 2 is worthwhile. Could you write a bit on that one too, while your energy is high?
No, you can't. Practically every post you've ever made on this forum has been a shit take. This is no different.
All due respect, NightCrawler, but I don't think your argument holds.
Yes, actually, I'd say we need more than one, as their roles differ. Zodd introduces Guts to the existence of Apostles, Wyald serves to demonstrate that Guts is now strong enough to defeat them. If they were interchangeable, then yeah I'd agree. But they're not.
Maybe, but I thought we were comparing the manga and the anime and how the anime supposedly improves on it?
We need Wyald to show that Guts can survive monsters and especially to give more credibility to him surviving the Eclipse. It's the difference between him and another member of the Band of the Falcon, say Pippin. Otherwise, why didn't Pippin survive too?
Guts surviving the Eclipse out of nowhere, without prior demonstration that he can fight monsters and win, would have been awkward and jarring.
How does it desensitize the reader if no rape happened? My point is, Casca avoiding a rape at Wyald's hands only for an actual rape to happen (in an even worse manner than it would have been with Wyald) makes it feel a lot worse. It makes the Eclipse all the more tragic and hellish, in other words.
Actually, I do haha. Call me stupid or naïve, but when I first saw his reaction to that when I was younger and dumber, I just thought he was being an edgy bitch. Reading Golden Age clarified things immensely.
I dunno, man. I think authors shouldn't shy away from encountering the harsh brutalities of life and only hint at them for fear of offending readers.
But not all those scenes are trying to tell you that Berserk is a brutal world, are they? They each have a context and purpose of their own.
Yes, actually, I'd say we need more than one, as their roles differ. Zodd introduces Guts to the existence of Apostles, Wyald serves to demonstrate that Guts is now strong enough to defeat them. If they were interchangeable, then yeah I'd agree. But they're not.
Maybe, but I thought we were comparing the manga and the anime and how the anime supposedly improves on it?
We need Wyald to show that Guts can survive monsters and especially to give more credibility to him surviving the Eclipse. It's the difference between him and another member of the Band of the Falcon, say Pippin. Otherwise, why didn't Pippin survive too?
Guts surviving the Eclipse out of nowhere, without prior demonstration that he can fight monsters and win, would have been awkward and jarring.
What? Casca's role is important how? Rape fodder for the nth time? Enhances the eclipse? It lessens it because it desensitizes the reader. But maybe it's like Lucas said "it's like poetry, it rhymes", in this case she only almost gets raped, one volume later she's raped twice, it's such an important plot difference, that Miura should keep this motif in every arc (he kinda does).
How does it desensitize the reader if no rape happened? My point is, Casca avoiding a rape at Wyald's hands only for an actual rape to happen (in an even worse manner than it would have been with Wyald) makes it feel a lot worse. It makes the Eclipse all the more tragic and hellish, in other words.
Actually, I do haha. Call me stupid or naïve, but when I first saw his reaction to that when I was younger and dumber, I just thought he was being an edgy bitch. Reading Golden Age clarified things immensely.
I dunno, man. I think authors shouldn't shy away from encountering the harsh brutalities of life and only hint at them for fear of offending readers.
But not all those scenes are trying to tell you that Berserk is a brutal world, are they? They each have a context and purpose of their own.
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NightCrawler
Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
As much as I'd love to see you justify Wyald or the insane amounts of sexual assault that Casca is summited to, it'd just be eloquent fanboyism. People that can't see flaws in things that they love are inherently wrong. But ultimately, we just have different taste. You'd prefer a literal adaptation with nothing left behind because you see the manga as perfect. I believe that aesthetically that could never be the case, so I appreciate the improvement in areas that I believe are crucial for maximum emotional impact.
I like the murder investigation and how they expanded beyond the drug trade to show the issues of Baltimore as a whole. It not only affects the inner city black kids but blue collar citizens as well. A lot of major decisions are triggered in this season. And Frank Sobotka is a great tragic character, "You know what the trouble is, Brucey? We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy's pocket."
I've done that before, at length, more than once. Probably even had that very conversation with you for all I know! Feel free to look for it. I think the escape from the Tower of Rebirth, including the segments with the Bakiraka and Wyald, adds a lot to the story in addition to being a great action sequence from beginning to end that serves as a fitting prelude to the Eclipse. Your loss if you disagree.
A "literal adaptation" from a medium to another is a nonsense idea that's simply infeasible (and would be pointless). But that doesn't mean removing major parts of the story would constitute an improvement. Anyway, it's foolish of you to try to guess what I think or would want. You don't know me that well.
The material that was cut from the 1997 adaptation wasn't removed because someone thought it would improve the story. It was simply due to the numerous constraints the production faced (time, budget, censorship...). Just like the filler wasn't added to enhance the show. It's fine if you like it better because it's how you were introduced to the series and is associated with a nostalgia for that era, but there's no need to make stuff up to justify it.
NightCrawler
Aeons gone, vast, mad and deathless
That's what I meant by limitations and constraints often leading to good creative ideas, and in this case helping with the pace while maintain a sense of mystery that lead to one of the most memorable endings in any media. Can you imagine how much momentum would be lost if Guts would fight Wyald and win just a few episodes before we got to the Eclipse? The insanity, shock and danger of the finale would deflate significantly. Do we need Casca to go through the same shit, but worse? Who cares if we need to see that Guts can kill an apostle? We've been witnessing countless times how his strength is beyond any human. It's fine if you think the fight is cool, I guess, the same with the Bakiraka, but it makes sense in many ways that they were cut, even if you think the way I read these omissions is beyond their intentions.
But of course if they had a big budget and more time they would've adapted it closer to the source material, but that doesn't always mean it's a good thing, there's a myriad of examples of that when translating to different media.
Still don't see how Wyald deflates the Eclipse.
Guts has been shown to be stronger than any human, sure (even then he struggled against some human opponents, such as General Boscone). He still needed to be shown to be able to survive a demon. Aside from demonstrating that he can survive a demon, hence making it believable for Guts to survive the Eclipse, the Wyald fight also adds to the Eclipse by showing you how a guy who fought a demon and won still has no chance at all of victory here. If anything it adds to the horror and insanity.
I've said my piece about the Casca thing above. She avoided a horrific experience only to land in one far, far worse. She didn't experience the same thing twice.
Honestly it seems very straightforward to me.
Guts has been shown to be stronger than any human, sure (even then he struggled against some human opponents, such as General Boscone). He still needed to be shown to be able to survive a demon. Aside from demonstrating that he can survive a demon, hence making it believable for Guts to survive the Eclipse, the Wyald fight also adds to the Eclipse by showing you how a guy who fought a demon and won still has no chance at all of victory here. If anything it adds to the horror and insanity.
I've said my piece about the Casca thing above. She avoided a horrific experience only to land in one far, far worse. She didn't experience the same thing twice.
Honestly it seems very straightforward to me.