Will the prophecy realize itself?

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
"When the Sun has died five times, a red lake will appear at the West of the city with a name both new and ancient, and it will be the sign that the fifth angel, the Falcon of Darkness, is born. The Angel shall be both master of the sinful black sheep and king of the blind white ones. He is the one who shall bring an age of darkness upon the world."

this is the prophecy as we know it. now, knowing the present situation in the story so far, do you think that Griffith will fulfill the prophecy and bring an age of darkness to the world or do you think that guts will actually prevent that by fullfilling is revenge before?

i'd go with the first option since guts is trying to cure casca. the thing is we dont know how long it can take before the "age of darkness" is brought upon the world! any thoughts?
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
SaiyajinNoOuji said:
I'm hoping so cause if not, the end of the series is going to be a major fucking let down as everyone is torn to bits.

yeah i guess so! and from what we've seen so far i would not be surprise if the age of darkness would actually happen.. rock on miura :guts:
 

Aazealh

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jackson_hurley said:
knowing the present situation in the story so far, do you think that Griffith will fulfill the prophecy and bring an age of darkness to the world or do you think that guts will actually prevent that by fullfilling is revenge before?

At the rate things are going, I think Griffith will fulfill the prophecy. Maybe not completely (as in irreversibly), but at least to some extent. An "age of darkness" is a pretty vague thing so it's hard to tell what it refers to, but I think we (and the characters) will get a taste of it before the series' end.
 
It's looking like Griffith is on course to wrap up his Kingdom before Guts has any chance of returning from Elfhelm. I just don't see what is going to stop him. At the very least we're going to see the first stages of the world's decent into total shit.
 

Abstraction

Darkness is looking back at you
Here's my opinion/speculation on the matter.

Griffith was able to become a godhand because of his deep desire and longing. So I think once Griffith's dream is relized, the age of darkness will be in full swing.

But I'm speculating that once his dream is realized, the age of darkness will end up being the completed merger of the worlds. The layers that make up the evil section of the vortex of souls, will run rampant with the physical world.

How much more dark could this world get...lol. It's got to have something to do with the dark portion of the vortex... Griffith's transcended dream... And the merger of the worlds that began when Femto was incarnated on earth.

Slan says, "Even if a fish jumps, it can't change the flow of the river, and that flow has begun... the fifth angel has been born."

Then Slan refers to the age of darkness as being... "Evil shall overcome the sacred, illusion shall overcome existence, fear shall overcome hope, hate shall overcome love, the dead shall overcome the living... all the darkness shall cover the light, like the moon shadows the sunlight. Later people shall call this the age of darkness."

"That is the fate of those that mix themselves up with demonkind." This was said refering to an apostle that, if dead, their soul would be consumed by the darkness of the vortex, (also refers to Guts' branded existence) ...I fell that because (in the future) a majority of the humans will cling to Griffith as their savior, it will then make the good, loving, hopefull people of the physical world (which is already merging, and the rules are changing) put their faith, collective conscious, and love towards a demon king. Which could be enough to out-weigh the good that exists in the vortex, and consume it, and everything else in the world.

So I speculate that once Griffith's dream is realized... the great evil that exists in the vortex will consume everything. It may not be irreversable... but I feel it's not gonna be good if/when his dream is realized.
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Abstraction said:
Here's my opinion/speculation on the matter.
Just a few nit picks, Griffith didn't become a God Hand because of his deep desire and his longing, in the missing episode I believe, the idea of evil tells him that he was planned from a long time ago and was destine to do this.

Also even though Slann has mentioned that, the God Hand, Void in specific had mentioned that even they cant see everything, so just because everything is "going as planned" doesn't mean its going to end up that way. Although Aaz brought up a good point which you mention as well that it probably will come for a bit before its dispelled/defeated.
 

Abstraction

Darkness is looking back at you
SaiyajinNoOuji said:
Just a few nit picks, Griffith didn't become a God Hand because of his deep desire and his longing, in the missing episode I believe, the idea of evil tells him that he was planned from a long time ago and was destine to do this.

Well I don't really see how you would think that his desire had nothing to do with that. The reason the godhand are called into our realm is out of deep longing.

The Idea says himself that he was brought into existance to supply us with reasons for our destiny, that kept transcending our own knowledge. So I was under the impression that The Idea would chose the one human in the world that has the deepest longing, and desire to be the chosen one... That would lead the rest of the world to this understanding.

SaiyajinNoOuji said:
Also even though Slann has mentioned that, the God Hand, Void in specific had mentioned that even they cant see everything, so just because everything is "going as planned" doesn't mean its going to end up that way.

Hence... speculation.

And you mean Slan specifically said that. :chomp:

It can go either way... which is a part of causality.
 

Aazealh

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Abstraction said:
But I'm speculating that once his dream is realized, the age of darkness will end up being the completed merger of the worlds.

It's not too hard to predict that the two things are related, however to which extent the worlds would merge, we don't know yet.

Abstraction said:
The layers that make up the evil section of the vortex of souls, will run rampant with the physical world.

Here's our problem. I'm afraid you might be mistaken about what the Vortex of Souls is. It's not a layer of the astral world per se, and it doesn't have an evil section, since it's all evil as far as we know. The Vortex of Souls is the Hell of Berserk basically, and from up close it looks like this:



Click here for a better view of the whirlpool itself

It exists in one of the deepest parts of the world (an ocean of souls), and right now the corporeal and astral worlds are barely starting to merge together. We're still far from the scenario you're envisioning here. Not to say it's impossible, but if "Hell" came to exist on earth, then I think it would be the end of the world, plain and simple. I don't see how it could be reversible either. Therefore I doubt it'll happen. I can definitely imagine that this could be the Idea of Evil / God Hand's final goal, but if it came to be in the manga then I don't see how the story could go on.

Abstraction said:
Slan says, "Even if a fish jumps, it can't change the flow of the river, and that flow has begun... the fifth angel has been born."

That refers to Causality. I'm not sure what the relation with what you were saying is.

Abstraction said:
I fell that because (in the future) a majority of the humans will cling to Griffith as their savior, it will then make the good, loving, hopefull people of the physical world (which is already merging, and the rules are changing) put their faith, collective conscious, and love towards a demon king.

People believe in Griffith for now, but that might not always be the case. I don't think he'll keep that "good guy" mask on forever. And then there are the other 4 members of the God Hand. I don't think they'll stay idle forever either.

Abstraction said:
Which could be enough to out-weigh the good that exists in the vortex, and consume it, and everything else in the world.

Whether people trust Griffith or not has nothing to do with the Vortex of Souls, and certainly can't influence it in any way as far as we know. Also, like I said earlier, there's just no "good" in the Vortex of Souls, that's why it's such a bad place to end up in. Puck commented in volume 3 that it almost felt like all the evil in the world was gathered there. Maybe there's a place like "Heaven" somewhere, but we're not even sure about it (and I don't see how it could be in the Vortex in any case). If Heaven exists, then maybe the both are connected somehow (according to the division of Karma, like Flora said in volume 24), but so far nothing has ever hinted at it. And in any case, Heaven would be really small in comparison to Hell, already outweighed from the start.

SaiyajinNoOuji said:
Griffith didn't become a God Hand because of his deep desire and his longing, in the missing episode I believe, the idea of evil tells him that he was planned from a long time ago and was destine to do this.

Well, although it was planned for him to end up like this, he still had a deep desire and longing to achieve his dream. The both are complementary, not exclusive. He had a deep desire because the Idea of Evil wanted him to, see what I mean?

Abstraction said:
I was under the impression that The Idea would chose the one human in the world that has the deepest longing, and desire to be the chosen one... That would lead the rest of the world to this understanding.

No, the Idea of Evil purposedly created a man for that sole reason. It's not like it looked at the time and said "whoa, 216 years already, let me check who's got the deepest desire for something..." Griffith, probably like the 4 other members of the God Hand before him, was engineered by the Idea of Evil, all his life was carefully planned so he would become part of the God Hand.

Abstraction said:
It can go either way... which is a part of causality.

What?
 
C

cajunman380

Guest
Hello all, great discussion going on here. To me this subject raises a few interesting questions.

I mean what are the chances that the prophecy could also involve the 4 other God hand taking human form? I mean Griffith could simply be repeating the events at the mock eclipse. gathering believers under his banner and then sacrificing them to bring out the other God Hand members. I do realize that Griffith required the behilit apostle in order for it to happen to him but still countless sacrifices were needed. Could Griffith be a pawn in all this? A pawn in the Idea of evils grand plan (assuming it has a conscience with its own desires and it isn't some sort of machine designed to fullfill an unknown function. just throwing it out there.

About the vortex of souls, and I'm sure it may have been answered but i wasn't able to find the specific topic. But since the subject has been brought up. why was vargas sent to the vortex? Ill recheck but i don't recall him being an evil man of sorts. Or is it for the same reason the people in albion were swallowed up? because they were in an area with an influx of negative emotions or evil? (please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

And heres another thought. Everyone seems to think that Guts will have a hand in undoing the damage which may well be the case but isn't it possible that the hawk of light (the true one, the good one) may be guts child which now resides in Griffith? (may have been discussed to death however it seemed appropriate to bring it up in this topic)
 

Aazealh

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cajunman380 said:
I mean what are the chances that the prophecy could also involve the 4 other God hand taking human form?

The prophecy itself doesn't really involve them. However that doesn't mean they won't play a role in the "master plan" or whatever you want to call it. Actually they're already playing a role in it, Conrad creates plagues, Slan overlooks evil cults, etc. The prophecy is just that: a prophecy. Its scope is limited.

cajunman380 said:
I mean Griffith could simply be repeating the events at the mock eclipse. gathering believers under his banner and then sacrificing them to bring out the other God Hand members. I do realize that Griffith required the Beherit apostle in order for it to happen to him but still countless sacrifices were needed.

I don't think it's going to happen like that. If only because we've been told that such an incarnation can only happen once every 1000 years. Also, the land (actually, the world) upon which the incarnation ceremony took place had been previously sacrificed by the Beherit Apostle, it wasn't random. His wish was the creation of a new world. I think the other members of the God Hand will manifest themselves on earth more and more as time goes by, but I don't see it happening like that.

cajunman380 said:
Could Griffith be a pawn in all this? A pawn in the Idea of evils grand plan (assuming it has a conscience with its own desires and it isn't some sort of machine designed to fullfill an unknown function. just throwing it out there.

Well I think he's obviously a pawn. And a willing pawn at that. He's playing his part right now, just like the others are. It's what he wants though, so it seems to be fine by him.

cajunman380 said:
why was vargas sent to the vortex? Ill recheck but i don't recall him being an evil man of sorts. Or is it for the same reason the people in albion were swallowed up?

He was "evil" enough, or not good enough, you choose. We aren't given a specific reason, but it doesn't take much for somebody to be sent to the Vortex of Souls anyway. A lot of people end up in there, in fact Griffith states in volume 23 that everybody does (that doesn't mean it's true, but that's what he says).

cajunman380 said:
And heres another thought. Everyone seems to think that Guts will have a hand in undoing the damage which may well be the case but isn't it possible that the hawk of light (the true one, the good one) may be guts child which now resides in Griffith?

The true Falcon of Light is this:


Literally a falcon made of light. And it's Griffith. Guts & Casca's child will surely play an important role in the future, but he's not the Falcon of Light. Falcon/Hawk = Griffith. Concerning your question itself, well it's possible. We're just assuming that Guts will eventually kill Griffith or at least thwart him. The child will probably play a role in this, but for now it's all speculation.
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
I've been thinking about the Demon child lately: Could his also being Guts son possibly be an oversite of Causality? Looking at from the Idea of Evil's standpoint it could be reasoned that Guts had it in his fate to be raped by Donovan in order to create a neurosis towards sex so that he would have trouble getting Casca pregnant. The Demon child was required as a vehicle for Griffith to manifest himself on the Physical Plane; which is one of the reasons that he raped Casca in the first place . . . So when exactly did he become aware that the Demon Child shares a paternal bond with Guts? And did Causality account for it? He tells Guts that he met him on the Hill of Swords to see what he would feel: So we can infer that knowing about the Demon Child's mixed paternity worried him . . . I'm sure you guys must have discussed this before; what are your thoughts?
 
Forest Wraith said:
I've been thinking about the Demon child lately: Could his also being Gut's son possibly be an oversite of Causality? Looking at from the Idea of Evil's standpoint it could be reasoned that Guts had it in his fate to be raped by Donovan in order to create a neurosis towards sex so that he would have trouble getting Casca pregnant. The Demon child was required as a vehicle for Griffith to manifest himself on the Physical Plane; which is one of the reasons that he raped Casca in the first place . . . So when exactly did he become aware that the Demon Child shares a paternal bond with Guts? And did Causality account for it? He tells Guts that he met him on the Hill of Swords to see what he would feel: So we can infer that knowing about the Demon Child's mixed paternity worried him . . . I'm sure you guys must have discussed this before; what are your thoughts?

Mixed paternity? I don't think you can consider it in any way to be Griffith's child. He just tainted it, it's Guts boy.

You're also mixing up Casuality with the Idea of Evil. Casuality is just the rules by which existance plays out, it doesn't overlook or account for anything. It's Idea that actively manipulates Casuality(although that's kind of weird, because couldn't you say that Idea's manipulation itself is bound by Casuality?).

Either way, Idea maybe or maybe didn't fuck up when he let Guts knock up Casca, but we don't know enough about his end goal to judge that action yet.
 

Aazealh

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Forest Wraith said:
I've been thinking about the Demon child lately: Could his also being Guts son possibly be an oversite of Causality? [...] And did Causality account for it?

An oversight of the Idea of Evil? That's hard to say. And it's indeed been discussed in the past. There are two ways to go about it: either the Demon Child was the only possible vessel for Griffith, or any could have done. If it was the only possible vessel for some unexplainable reason (like because of what Femto did to it), then all went according to plan (and the plan was flawed). If not, the plan was changed to incorporate it for some reason. Basically we won't know the answer to this question until the series progresses further, as we haven't been told much yet about this. I'm personally convinced that the Child will play a very important part in what will bring Griffith's downfall, so in that sense you could say that something wasn't planned.

It's just like the fact that at some point Guts' actions will stop being benign and will begin to threaten the God Hand and their plans. This could already be (or not) the case. Guts could still play a role in some mysterious "master plan" or he could have exceeded his time of usefulness already. Same for Casca. We don't know the answer to these questions, and we won't know them until the series gets to the point where it will be relevant.

Forest Wraith said:
The Demon child was required as a vehicle for Griffith to manifest himself on the Physical Plane; which is one of the reasons that he raped Casca in the first place

I really doubt that. He raped her to hurt Guts, to get back at him. I don't think Femto had planned his own incarnation, over which he had little control, as soon as he was "born." That's more in the Idea of Evil's league. Especially since the process included SK's intervention and Guts & Casca's survival until the events at Albion (these where necessary in order for it to succeed).

Forest Wraith said:
So when exactly did he become aware that the Demon Child shares a paternal bond with Guts?

I'd say at the same time he learned of its existence, whenever that was.

Forest Wraith said:
He tells Guts that he met him on the Hill of Swords to see what he would feel: So we can infer that knowing about the Demon Child's mixed paternity worried him

You're mistaken. First, like mike.william said, there's no mixed paternity. The Child is Guts and Casca's son, and when Femto raped her he was corrupted by his evilness. That's all there is to it, no third parent. Femto didn't conceive the child. Second, there's no indication that Griffith went to the Hill of Swords because of the child in particular (doesn't mean it's impossible though). It was to see if he had any feelings for Guts now that he was incarnated, and from what we can see he thought he wouldn't have any. He didn't expect the Demon Child's feelings, neither for Guts nor Casca.

mike.william said:
couldn't you say that Idea's manipulation itself is bound by Casuality?

At the level of depth where it operates, the principles of causality probably don't apply, or work very differently from the way they do in the material world. Basically I don't think a lot of things can affect the Idea of Evil itself, but since it's situated at the "top of the pyramid," on the contrary it can affect a lot of things.
 
If the Demon Child will play an important role in Griffith's downfall (supposely), why did Griffith chose him to incarnate? Or it wasnt his choice but the Beherit Apostle's choice, because the child was deformed like the apostle when he was human..
 

Aazealh

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fuxberg said:
If the Demon Child will play an important role in Griffith's downfall (supposely), why did Griffith chose him to incarnate? Or it wasnt his choice but the Beherit Apostle's choice, because the child was deformed like the apostle when he was human..

I don't think Griffith chose him at all, actually how could he have? He had no way to influence these events. He's the one that was chosen, for the second time (first time being when he became Femto). As for the Beherit Apostle, I'm not sure he even knew what he was doing. He just saw the dying child and swallowed him up out of empathy. He was a pawn more than any other character.

It's really an instance where you can feel the works of a "higher force," and surprise! What's the title of these episodes? "Shadow of Idea." There's no coincidence here.
 
It's really an instance where you can feel the works of a "higher force," and surprise! What's the title of these episodes? "Shadow of Idea." There's no coincidence here.
What makes me wander about this whole thing is this: If we assume that the child was the preordained vessel (chosen by the Idea of Evil) and that it will be instrumental in Griffith's downfall, what would than be the point of choosing a vessel that carries such a threat? Is it supposed to work as a sort of last resort in case Griffith decides not to play along, or is it an unforeseen consequence, something that somehow managed to get overlooked. I realise that it is hard to speculate with so little information but IMHO a plan set in motion at least a thousand years ago cannot hinge on a oversight.This would in turn mean that there is perhaps some other force at work here, something we are yet to see reveal itself. I realise this is rather baseless but the events themselves are a bit too elaborate to simply be coincidental.
 

Aazealh

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vlad said:
If we assume that the child was the preordained vessel (chosen by the Idea of Evil) and that it will be instrumental in Griffith's downfall, what would than be the point of choosing a vessel that carries such a threat?

What if there was no other vessel available? It's not like it would have been easy to have the Beherit Apostle eat someone else that would also have been suitable at that precise time... I mean it's already a marvel that it happened like it did in the first place. And what if that "threat" hadn't been planned? Maybe the child's consciousness wasn't supposed to survive the process. And really, even if it had been someone else, who's to say parts of his ego wouldn't have remained inside Griffith as well? We just don't know enough to answer these questions with certainty. We're speculating about powers that we ignore practically everything about.

vlad said:
Is it supposed to work as a sort of last resort in case Griffith decides not to play along

I very much doubt that. It's more an unforeseen consequence or one that has been underestimated, IMHO. Hell, this wouldn't be so much of a problem if Guts and Casca had died during that ceremony, right? Unplanned events that could mess up "the plan" aren't hard to find.

vlad said:
This would in turn mean that there is perhaps some other force at work here, something we are yet to see reveal itself. I realise this is rather baseless but the events themselves are a bit too elaborate to simply be coincidental.

Yeah, I have to agree that this is completely baseless. If you want other forces at work, you should look at SK or even Guts. We've seen them both messing with what was supposed to happen (or so we think, at least) several times already, and I'm sure SK doesn't just hibernates when he's not meeting Guts. Actually in this case he was actively trying to prevent Griffith's incarnation at the time, and he's not someone to be taken lightly. Other than that, I don't see another mysterious and immaterial force existing that could have thwarted the Idea of Evil's plan in that way (keep in mind this includes knowing the plan in the first place, which is quite unlikely IMHO). In fact I don't think it's even compatible with the way the events occurred.
 
Couldn't the Beherit Apostle have been the intended vessel (or vessel enough) for Griffith to take human form in. The Beherit Apostle WAS once human. I mean by this, take away Guts and Casca's child. At Albion, let's say it was only the Beherit Apostle...would Griffith still have emerged from that egg in the morning? Yes the child was there for a reason, casuality and such. Just a thought.
 
Couldn't the Beherit Apostle have been the intended vessel (or vessel enough) for Griffith to take human form in. The Beherit Apostle WAS once human. I mean by this, take away Guts and Casca's child. At Albion, let's say it was only the Beherit Apostle...would Griffith still have emerged from that egg in the morning?
I might be a bit off on this but I think he choose to sacrifice himself as well as the world around him in order to create a new world. He appears to be completely spent at that time both phisically and mentally (it's been discussed in this thread http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=6596.0). So on his own he would not provide for a body itself, just the opportunity for the inncarnation to take place.
I very much doubt that. It's more an unforeseen consequence or one that has been underestimated, IMHO. Hell, this wouldn't be so much of a problem if Guts and Casca had died during that ceremony, right? Unplanned events that could mess up "the plan" aren't hard to find.
If you want other forces at work, you should look at SK or even Guts. We've seen them both messing with what was supposed to happen (or so we think, at least) several times already, and I'm sure SK doesn't just hibernates when he's not meeting Guts. Actually in this case he was actively trying to prevent Griffith's incarnation at the time, and he's not someone to be taken lightly. Other than that, I don't see another mysterious and immaterial force existing that could have thwarted the Idea of Evil's plan in that way (keep in mind this includes knowing the plan in the first place, which is quite unlikely IMHO). In fact I don't think it's even compatible with the way the events occurred.
What puzzles me about this is the fact that we do not really see any of the main antagonists overly worried about anything that has happened during the eclipse as well as the occultation. This could mean several things: either things are going just as planed and the disturbance is really a minor one, or some sort of arrogance that could perhaps leave them vulnerable. Another option is that the God Hand simply entrust themselves completely to the flow of causality and accept whatever comes to pass. Whichever option one may choose, it is IMHO hard to envision both Skull Knight and Guts doing much on their own (or even together) at least from what we have seen up to now. Therefor in order to prevent the proficy from fulfilling itself I'd say something else is needed. What that "something else" is, is a whole other ball-game but hopefully we shall see soon enough. I, for one, am looking forward to some assistance from the Hanafubuku Oh, perhaps along the lines of helping Guts to better understand the world and what he is really up against.
 

Aazealh

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Proj2501 said:
Couldn't the Beherit Apostle have been the intended vessel (or vessel enough) for Griffith to take human form in.

No? I think it's clear from what we can see in the manga that he couldn't have been. Vlad's right about it.

Proj2501 said:
casuality

Guys... It's causality. As in "cause."

vlad said:
What puzzles me about this is the fact that we do not really see any of the main antagonists overly worried about anything that has happened during the eclipse as well as the occultation.

Well, I guess they don't think there's anything to worry about then. I mean it's not because I think things are going to happen in a certain way that they will. And really, we've not seen the relevant people nearly enough to know whether they're worried or not (I don't think they are though). Especially since they're pretty secretive and not prone to show their emotions in general. Even if Ubik was really worried, we'd have no way to know. And dude, the Eclipse = the Occultation. An Eclipse is an occultation of the sun by the moon. In the manga the word "solar eclipse" isn't used to describe the ceremony, instead they just talk about an occultation (vaguer and more cryptic reference I guess).

vlad said:
This could mean several things: either things are going just as planed and the disturbance is really a minor one, or some sort of arrogance that could perhaps leave them vulnerable.

As far as the God Hand is concerned, I think it's clear SK and Guts are considered minor disturbances at best. Just look at how they took SK's intervention during the Eclipse, or Guts' struggle in volume 3. I think it's a mix of arrogance and lack of anticipation/ignorance of the importance of some "details." Griffith is the most flagrant example here: he ignores Guts in spite of the potential danger he represents just to prove a point. I like to think of what Flora told Schierke to illustrate this, the fact knowledge can blind someone. By knowing so much about the forces at work and being aware of the impossibility of Guts' task, one could not see the reality of what is happening (Guts having the potential to really interfere). And when they do it might be too late to do anything about it. Anyway, so far nothing has proved them wrong. SK's efforts haven't achieved all that much (and he's been around for a thousand years, that's theorically longer than any of them), and Guts is going away for a while. We don't even know how the Griffith/Child relation works, so it's hard to speculate about it. Right now the biggest threat to Griffith (and by the extension to the rest of the GH) is Ganishka, and most people believe he's a controlled, fabricated threat.

To sum it up, I think it's too early for Guts to be seen as a real threat by the God Hand, and even at their level they might not know certain details that will prove crucial later on (like the Yobimizu no Tsurugi?). Negligence, arrogance and a lack of foresight coupled with too much confidence is what I believe may cause the God Hand's downfall in the end. However this doesn't mean that the prophecy won't be fulfilled (actually, it's really about to be), an "age of darkness" will probably start before Guts even comes back from Elfhelm. But even then, somehow, he'll prevail. Or not. :void:

vlad said:
Another option is that the God Hand simply entrust themselves completely to the flow of causality and accept whatever comes to pass.

I don't really think they do. They take an active part in the events in order to achieve their goals it seems. They can compose with unexpected elements, but that's only as long as their plans stay mostly unaffected. If Guts were to kill Slan for example, I don't think they'd shake it off as "part of the flow of causality."

vlad said:
I, for one, am looking forward to some assistance from the Hanafubuku Oh, perhaps along the lines of helping Guts to better understand the world and what he is really up against.

Well, I'm not sure that'd help him all that much. Knowledge is always good, but he already knows more than most people about who he's up against. I think the Elf King's help will be more significant (if only by healing Casca).
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
If Slan's description of the Age of Darkness is accurate (viz. "the dead shall overcome the living.") I see no reason that "later, people shall refer to this as the Age of Darkness." By that sentence alone, humanity is doomed. If the dead overcome the living, no one will be alive to call that time anything. Thus, the Age of Darkness has some terminus before the living are completely overcome. This sort of logic makes sense in light of what the Idea of Evil is. It is born of the human shared subconcious. It is dependent on the shared subconcious' continued existance for sustenance. Idea won't kill off its food source if it is intelligent and sentient. Thus, Griffith's vessel being Guts' child may not be such an oversight as we believe.
 

Aazealh

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Trashcan said:
If Slan's description of the Age of Darkness is accurate (viz. "the dead shall overcome the living.") I see no reason that "later, people shall refer to this as the Age of Darkness." By that sentence alone, humanity is doomed. If the dead overcome the living, no one will be alive to call that time anything.

I don't see how you're reaching that conclusion. I mean it's what Slan said, so I'm not sure what you're trying to do here, prove her wrong by playing on words? This sentence can simply be taken as the fact more people will die than live, or that the dead will prevail over the living (think of the specters & co terrorizing humans). And when it happens, people will call it the age of darkness. It doesn't necessarily mean everybody will die.

Trashcan said:
This sort of logic makes sense in light of what the Idea of Evil is. It is born of the human shared subconcious. It is dependent on the shared subconcious' continued existance for sustenance. Idea won't kill off its food source if it is intelligent and sentient.

Who said the Idea of Evil was dependant on anything? Nothing suggests it in the manga. The line I bolded in your post is a completely groundless assumption. And even if it was true, who's to say it'd make a difference for the Idea of Evil whether some humans are alive in the material world or they're all writhing in the Vortex of Souls? In fact we could even assume it'd be better if they were all in the Vortex, where "they become one."

And apart from that, I don't see how what you said is supposed to change much concerning the child. If the Idea of Evil doesn't want humanity to completely disappear, you'd think it'd make it so it doesn't happen from the start instead of creating a process that will destroy everything and then inserting a flaw in that process so that its integrity can be compromised. Sounds like backward logic to me.
 

Herald of Yama

"It is pure Potential"
If the Idea of Evil doesn't want humanity to completely disappear, you'd think it'd make it so it doesn't happen from the start instead of creating a process that will destroy everything and then inserting a flaw in that process so that its integrity can be compromised. Sounds like backward logic to me.
Its just giving the people what they want while doing so in a way that doesn't compromise itself. The people want a savior. They also want evil to be transcendent over their destinies. These two ideas are diametrically opposed. In short, the only way to give them what they want and what they want is through backward logic.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Trashcan said:
Its just giving the people what they want while doing so in a way that doesn't compromise itself. The people want a savior. They also want evil to be transcendent over their destinies.

Not necessarily no. Nowhere it is specifically said that the Idea of Evil "gives people what they want," aside from the desires cited in episode 83 that were the motives of its birth. And it refers to mankind as a whole, not just the people of Midland, who you should remember only want a savior because the Idea of Evil made it so they would want one anyway. And where is it said people want evil to be transcendent over their destinies? That's just a serious distortion of "They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge." Not the same thing at all.

In any case, that doesn't justify what you're replying to. The same results could be achieved by proceeding differently.
 
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