Author Topic: Takezo will be Musashi ...  (Read 19608 times)

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Offline Wereallmad

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2002, 07:43:56 PM »
Well, I got the 12 I ordered today. Intact, all correct, no bootleg yaoi, and after Griffith had gotten my hopes up.

It's a pretty cool manga, so far, but because I'm WAM, I am legally required to bitch about something.

I do now understand the numerous gripes about the story. The additions and omissions don't really bother me much, but the pacing and sequence of events are kinda shot to hell. Sometimes it seems to move to fast, and sometimes too slow (like the previously mentioned fight with In'ei). And the order in which events occur has been altered more than just a bit, for reasons which are a mystery to me.

My only other gripe is that everyone looks a little too similar. This isn't really an issue specific to Vagabond, it happens in a lot of manga and anime. Some artists do nothing but draw the _exact_ same face over and over, and just change the hairstyle. Usually this is because characters in most manga are generic and all have the same facial features and facial types, as if the artist just read one of those "How to Draw Manga" books, then sat his ass down and started drawing up characters.

With Vagabond, this isn't the case. The drawing style is very unique, and the characters have so much detail and personality. The art is probably the best in a manga that Ive seen. Especially the facial expressions. It's just that a few of them have what seems like the same exact facial features. And since characters often change every few pages in hairstyle, presence of facial hair, cleanliness, drastically changing their appearance at times, it can get a little confusing until you read the dialogue (not exactly easy, considering my limited knowledge).

All in all though, I can't say I'm at all disappointed.

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2002, 09:34:36 PM »
I do now understand the numerous gripes about the story. The additions and omissions don't really bother me much, but the pacing and sequence of events are kinda shot to hell. Sometimes it seems to move to fast, and sometimes too slow
Well, yeah, the way the time flows changes quite often, but there's always "substance", and it's never "boring filling", in my opinion...
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(like the previously mentioned fight with In'ei).
Inshun, not In'ei. ^^

Offline Wereallmad

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2002, 10:43:37 PM »
Well, yeah, the way the time flows changes quite often, but there's always "substance", and it's never "boring filling", in my opinion...

No, not filler. It all seems like its there for a reason. Which definitely is commendable, since a lot of manga just seems to go around in circles for a while. It does seem a little awkward though, and it's nearly impossible to compare it to the book chronologically. Many events that don't occur till the later part of the story have already happened, yet it seems like the manga is still near the beginning.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation, but it seems like Inoue us going about Takezo's character in a way that seems somehow untrue to the novel's character.

Either he's omitting Takezo's confinement after he's captured, trying to rescue his sister (is his sister even in the manga, I didn't see her anywhere, but I was only skimming), or he's chosen to move it waaaay later into the story.

IMO, this will make Takezo's journey from a reckless and wild, sword swinging thug into seeker of enlightenment through 'The Way' of the sword..... I dunno, odd. It was his ability to change his ways so early which, to me, was the entire point of the story. It was why Sasaki Kojiro was portrayed the way he was (IMO to show what type of person takezo would have become if he had never realized his mistakes) so that Musashi's character would have an antithesis. I also feel it was why Matahatchi was portrayed the way he was (to show what type of person takezo would have become if he would have realized his mistakes, but not had the courage of determination to try and change on his own). He still made huge mistakes, he didn't become a sage or anything. This became apparent even to himself when he was trying to meet Sekishusai. However he was at least trying.

In the manga he's not trying to improve himself, not really. He's just trying to start fights. To kick ass and take names. The way he takes on the house of Yoshioka is a prime example. In the book, yeah, he did kill a few students, and got in a bit over his head. But he didn't fight either Seijuro or Denshichiro, he ran.  

It's things like that, which really made the story stand out to me. You never see the hero run, he always stays and fights to the death, and if he makes it out alive, it's because of some freak accident, or amazing coincidence (Matahachi getting stoned and burning down the dojo, in the case of the manga). Changing things like this, make the story seem more generic to me.

That, and turning Tsujikaze Gohei into a ninja, and introducing him at the beginning of the story seems wacky.

I'm not saying things like this necessarily make the story bad, but I think it definitely makes it a less memorable and more typical story.

Whew........ end rant.
 
Inshun, not In'ei. ^^


Fuck.......... I knew that. So many damn names to remember.

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2002, 11:16:52 PM »
it's nearly impossible to compare it to the book chronologically.
True. The thing is: I don't think it's supposed to be compared to the book chronologically in the first place. Inoue just _based_ his story of Musashi on the novel by Yoshikawa. Similar events and characters. But it's still something else. Hence the title. ^^
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it seems like Inoue us going about Takezo's character in a way that seems somehow untrue to the novel's character.
Well, like I said above... ^^
And the novel was yet another personal interpretation of the historical character anyway, so... ^^;
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(is his sister even in the manga, I didn't see her anywhere, but I was only skimming)
Not so far, and I doubt we'll suddenly leanr he has one. ^^;
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In the manga he's not trying to improve himself, not really. He's just trying to start fights.
I kinda disagree... That was true before he went to the Yoshioka dj, but after that, in my opinion...
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That, and turning Tsujikaze Gohei into a ninja
A "ninja"? Huh? ^^;;

Offline Wereallmad

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2002, 11:28:37 PM »
A "ninja"? Huh? ^^;;

I dunno, what else would you call him? He's got the whole ninja thing down. Stealth, ability to leap vertically higher than should be possible, use of projectile weapons, climbing up two parallel objects by leaping from one to another.

He doesn't have his face covered, mind you. He's not dressed in dark clothing, and he doesn't have those ninja sock things, but in my mind, he's a ninja.

Unless Im mixing him up with Tenma.. either way, you know who Im talking about. The one who becomes Shishido Baiken, or whatever his name is.

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2002, 11:42:40 PM »
I dunno, what else would you call him?
I don't know? But I wouldn't call him a "ninja"... ^^;

Offline Spike

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2002, 04:32:37 AM »
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That, and turning Tsujikaze Gohei into a ninja, and introducing him at the beginning of the story seems wacky.

 I really disliked that too; and the fact that he claimed to have planned to kill Tenma for notoriety.  As far as the "ninja" aspect comes into play...that was my first impression--adhereing to Yoshikawa's description of ninja.  But until the manga states that Kohei lived / lives in the mountains and gathers intelligence for the government, I think that an "assassin" type portrayal would be better...(God damn am I over analyzing! :-*).

  Anyways, I've only been able to read two volumes (all that I'm aware of has been released in America), and to complain even more: so far, I don't like how Otsu is being depicted.  She really seems "tomboyish", whereas from every various thing that I have read portrays her as the "quintessence of stereotypical femininity".  Does her character / demeanor change through the manga?      

Offline Wereallmad

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2002, 10:01:53 AM »
As far as the "ninja" aspect comes into play...that was my first impression--adhereing to Yoshikawa's description of ninja.  But until the manga states that Kohei lived / lives in the mountains and gathers intelligence for the government, I think that an "assassin" type portrayal would be better...(God damn am I over analyzing! :-*).

Well, he does work for the government in the book. The former government, controlled by Toyotomi Hediyoshi(?). He was a spy for Toyotomi Hediyori, and was planning to assassinate the head of the Tokugawa, using Matahatchi, if I recall correctly.

But I agree, though my labeling of him was meant to be figurative, literally defining him as a ninja would definitely be inaccurate at this point.

 Anyways, I've only been able to read two volumes (all that I'm aware of has been released in America), and to complain even more: so far, I don't like how Otsu is being depicted.  She really seems "tomboyish", whereas from every various thing that I have read portrays her as the "quintessence of stereotypical femininity".  Does her character / demeanor change through the manga?      


Yeah, the book did portray her as much more frail.

If anything, I'd say she gets even more bold in the manga. In one scene she pulls a dagger on some would-be attackers, and prepares to fight.

Definitely not something the Otsu from Yoshikawa's novel would act.


It might have to do with changing cultural trends in Japan and the western world. Might not be 'PC enough', or some bullshit like that. It's very plausible that the story was changed to reflect cultural trends, regardless of how inaccurate they would be for that time in history.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2002, 10:02:31 AM by Wereallmad »

Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2002, 04:48:21 PM »
ive never read the book, but i do have the first dvd in the Samurai Trilogy starring Mifune Toshiro. its another retelling of Miyamoto Musashi, for those who are unaware. how accurate is that to the book? just by watching the movie i could tell there were major changes in the manga.
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Offline Spike

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2002, 02:11:33 AM »
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Well, he does work for the government in the book. The former government, controlled by Toyotomi Hediyoshi(?). He was a spy for Toyotomi Hediyori, and was planning to assassinate the head of the Tokugawa, using Matahatchi, if I recall correctly.

possible spoiler
  I think that you're talking about Baiken.  The old man that "adopts" Jotaro after Jotaro gets derelicted by Otsu and Musashi--and discovers the old mans "secret".  

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ive never read the book, but i do have the first dvd in the Samurai Trilogy starring Mifune Toshiro. its another retelling of Miyamoto Musashi, for those who are unaware. how accurate is that to the book? just by watching the movie i could tell there were major changes in the manga.

  I really want to see that trilogy!  My friend has the third dvd (battle on Ganryu Island) and he said that it was fairly close in comparison.  

Offline Wereallmad

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2002, 10:14:15 AM »
possible spoiler
  I think that you're talking about Baiken.  The old man that "adopts" Jotaro after Jotaro gets derelicted by Otsu and Musashi--and discovers the old mans "secret".  


Wait....... I thought Tsujikaze Gohei was Baiken....... shit, I need to re-read the book now.

edit: Okay, I took a second look. Tsujikaze Kohei is Shishido Baiken. That much I got right, but I somehow confused Baiken with Daizo of Narai.

I'm not sure exactly how I managed to get mixed up like that.

ive never read the book, but i do have the first dvd in the Samurai Trilogy starring Mifune Toshiro. its another retelling of Miyamoto Musashi, for those who are unaware. how accurate is that to the book? just by watching the movie i could tell there were major changes in the manga.

I've never seen the samurai trilogy, so I couldn't offer a comparison. If it has Mifune in it though, it's probably pretty good.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2002, 06:36:00 PM by Wereallmad »

Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2002, 07:00:06 PM »
I've never seen the samurai trilogy, so I couldn't offer a comparison. If it has Mifune in it though, it's probably pretty good.

yeah, it is. the only problem i have with it is Mifune's supposed to be a teenager i think, and he doesnt look it. he looks much older in this than he does in Seven Samurai (which makes sense, it was made later).
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Offline Spike

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2002, 04:43:09 AM »
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Wait....... I thought Tsujikaze Gohei was Baiken....... shit, I need to re-read the book now.

edit: Okay, I took a second look. Tsujikaze Kohei is Shishido Baiken. That much I got right, but I somehow confused Baiken with Daizo of Narai.

  Doh! I confused Baiken with Daizo...I'm re-reading the book now, and I must have Baiken's name on my mind.  Is it just me, or is it really difficult trying to recall asian names when they're not Tom, Bruce, Patti, Pat, etc.?  GOD DAMN MY AMERICAN HEBITUDE!!! :-X

Offline Wereallmad

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Re:Takezo will be Musashi ...
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2002, 12:08:01 PM »
I keep on merging characters. Like I confused Agon with Inshun, with In'ei. I never even realized, while reading the manga, that Inshun wasn't even in the book (he was only mentioned), and I totally seem to have lost the name of the abbot of the Hozoin, Nikkan.

And I already mentioned my merging of Daizo and baiken.

Reacquainting myself with the book makes me like the story of the manga even less though.