Author Topic: The Thread of Zelda  (Read 60918 times)

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Offline Johnstantine

Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #200 on: December 22, 2011, 02:33:15 PM »

Offline Lord Leith

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #201 on: December 22, 2011, 03:58:07 PM »
Many valid points, but as always, he overexaggerates the game's flaws to the point of absurdity.

That's why he's so lovable   :slan:
I always get a good laugh from his reviews, even when he bashes a game I personally enjoy.

I must say though, after re-watching it, I noticed a little contradiction, how he states Zelda has been the same game since Ocarina of time, so he can just make the same complaints but then ends his review with a complaint about the boss at the end of the dungeon "breaking the Zelda rules" well if its different, then its a good thing according to the supposed flaws given in his first point.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 04:12:50 PM by Lord Leith »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #202 on: December 22, 2011, 07:29:04 PM »
I can't stand that guy. He was funny the first time, but then his schtick got old quick.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say I can't stand him, his schtick did get old pretty fast for me as well. Anyway, I've been too lazy to write a review of the game so far but it can be summed up by saying I have mixed feelings.

Offline Johnstantine

Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #203 on: December 23, 2011, 07:38:33 PM »

Offline Griffith

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #204 on: December 26, 2011, 11:53:28 AM »
Yeah, this iteration of Zelda is pretty cute.  :void:

Here here. Usually she looks like Michael Jackson or an alien.

I can't stand that guy. He was funny the first time he made fun of a game I didn't care about, but then his schtick got old quick when it was one I liked.

Yeah! I wish he was dead.

I've been too lazy to write a review of the game so far but it can be summed up by saying I have mixed feelings.

I had mixed feelings three hours in; it felt like the game still hadn't even started yet. We're way past the point of diminishing returns with integrated tutorial gameplay. Combine that with a lot of vapid and unskippable dialogue and it's like you have to wade through hours of red tape before you really get started (I had to play the first part of the game twice and the second time was brutal). Remember Zelda 1 when you start the game and the game starts? That was fine! A little setup works too like in Zelda 3 or Ocarina, but this is getting ridiculous and only getting worse.

As for the real gameplay, it's impressive, especially for someone that doesn't have a lot of experience with the Wii. It's interesting how they've changed the battle mechanics to fit this mold, sacrificing mobility for better swordplay. In some ways it's more complex, but in others still pretty simplistic. Mostly because I find that most things don't work unless you do it the right way, which means keeping it simple. So, rather than a lot of nuanced sword fighting there's more of a SWING LIKE THIS philosophy (so far). Even that can be inconsistent with certain enemies as sometimes it feels it's very particular and other times like you can just do whatever. It adds some challenge, though I can't tell if it's because the fights are actually better or I'm just worse, but as far as that goes it's been a long time since the bosses/enemies in a Zelda game and the word "challenge" could even be used in the same sentence. All in all it's very cool.

Offline Walter

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #205 on: December 26, 2011, 03:45:25 PM »
Oh, I didn't know you'd started. We'll soon have a lot more to talk about, once you get further in.

As for the real gameplay, it's impressive, especially for someone that doesn't have a lot of experience with the Wii. It's interesting how they've changed the battle mechanics to fit this mold, sacrificing mobility for better swordplay. In some ways it's more complex, but in others still pretty simplistic. Mostly because I find that most things don't work unless you do it the right way, which means keeping it simple. So, rather than a lot of nuanced sword fighting there's more of a SWING LIKE THIS philosophy (so far). Even that can be inconsistent with certain enemies as sometimes it feels it's very particular and other times like you can just do whatever. It adds some challenge, though I can't tell if it's because the fights are actually better or I'm just worse, but as far as that goes it's been a long time since the bosses/enemies in a Zelda game and the word "challenge" could even be used in the same sentence. All in all it's very cool.
Regarding swordplay, there are opportunities for nuanced movements and creative thinking, but they are few and far between. For example, the yellow/golden man-eating plants. They change their weakness based on which direction your sword arm is oriented. If you hold it horizontally, it'll orient its mouth vertically, and vice versa. So to score a hit you have to sort of hold your arm diagonally, between the planes, so you can quickly switch to either stance he's weak to. (Of course, you could just simply use a properly timed shield bash making everything I just said obsolete... but whatever, I'm making a point!)

Other than that and a few moments in some of the final battles, there really is only one right way to use the sword in any given opportunity. Which is sad, given the amount of freedom the motion+ potentially grants the player. But by the end of the game, I was basically just doing a quick waggle/bitch-slapping motion for most standard enemies, and it was working well.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Gaahl

Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #206 on: December 30, 2011, 01:57:01 AM »
The swordplay in this game shows two things:
1to1 sword control is awesome and it ultimately doesn't work.

One half of me really loves the controls. Just standing around and playing with the wiimote, watching as Link holds his sword exactly like I hold it, feels fantastic.
The other half of me hates them. It's two effects that kill them for me: Input lag and the game interpreting a movement that wasn't meant to be an attack as one.
The result of those effects is, that rather than adding immersion to the game, they pull me out. The point of motion controls should be that you forget about the controlling device because you use natural motions to do things.
However, every time my strike on screen is late by some frames, every time I accidentally strike at an electrical sword, it reminds me of the device.
I had a way easier time forgetting the controller when I was still using one.
Another game that suffered from this was the new Donkey Kong Country. All the controls where fine until you needed to roll and had to shake the wiimote.
The core problem of this is, that it is all based on gestures. Only once the gesture is completed and only if it is recognized, the action is executed.
Using this approach you will always have input lag and you will always have moments of frustration when a gesture is not recognized the way you intended.
 I wonder if it was possible to do a system where you just bind Links sword to the wiimote and give it velocity, and angle.
The sword does damage if it hits fast enough at the right angle. No gestures, just physics.
So at the end of the day, Skyward Swords motion controls are, to me, nothing more than a fun gimmick. It was nice to have them, but for the next one I'd like to have my buttons back.

That said, I simply love the bow in this game. The way you  aim, the way you shoot, it's just perfect.

Offline Walter

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #207 on: December 30, 2011, 02:43:47 AM »
That said, I simply love the bow in this game. The way you  aim, the way you shoot, it's just perfect.
Mostly agree with you about the controls, but they only really got in my way when the game forced you to repeatedly to a stabbing motion. The detection for that movement is horrible, and ruins those scenes, one of which is A KEY moment in the game. The basic problem is the system normally fails to recognize you shifting your arm slightly in preparation for a stabbing motion for a swing. It also fails if your stab isn't a direct motion forward. Your hand can't be down and to the left when you begin the stab, or that'll be a swing as well, and you'll miss your timing. Basically, I think that part of the game is utterly broken.

Now, bug catching. Whole different story. I had a revelatory moment when I finally learned to properly use the net to catch birds in the game. It is amazing. It's all about the game accurately detecting subtle, slow, 1:1 movements in your hand. I open the face of the net by twisting my wrist slightly, which Link performs 1:1 on the screen, then you slowly creep up to the birds, preparing to make a scooping motion. And then... YOU STRIKE! It's kind of ridiculous that this small, meta portion of the game was my best experience in motion controls.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #208 on: December 30, 2011, 05:40:56 PM »
I don't know if I'd say the swordplay doesn't work. Rather I agree with Walter in that to me it's more a matter of "calibration" than anything. The stabbing motion's dismal detection is a good example. Maybe it means the Wiimotion Plus isn't precise enough, or maybe the problem is on the software side, that I can't tell. But yeah in the end I can't say that my intent was always properly transcribed in the game, and that was frustrating at times. Still, overall I found the controls enjoyable and I experienced zero input lag during the game. DKCR is a different beast altogether, as the shake-to-roll control truly is a gimmick and doesn't help the gameplay at all.

What I'm less inclined to forgive in this Zelda are the mediocre (and barebones) plotline and dialogues, the lack of variety in the environments and what I feel as an overall lack of ambition. Not to mention the insistence on hand-holding to the point of idiocy. I don't want to be explained what this or that item is every first time I pick one in a play session. It's fine to think of newcomers and old people and such but they ought to also think of the folks who've played every entry in the series. Allow us to disable it in the Settings and be done with it.

Offline Griffith

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #209 on: December 31, 2011, 09:28:12 AM »
I also didn't have much trouble with the controls or delay and really liked it actually. Like Aaz said the plot and even gameplay is what petered out, which is unfortunate because I was quite enjoying it. It was nice that there was a lot of original elements and not too much naval gazing like in Twilight Princess, but it's like they ran out of creative ideas halfway through and resorted to time sinking exercises.

I liked the visual style, kind of like classic Disney and a compromise between the more realistic and cartoony style Zeldas that serve the Wii's graphical capabilities well. It has an overall likable quality to it. I enjoyed the townspeople and side quests, which I usually... don't. I think they struck a good balance there, even the collectable crap is useful and not egregiously difficult or annoying to find; it sort of takes care of itself as you play and adds a little depth. I also find Skyloft easier to get around than some of the more recent towns in the series, which made things all the better.

The last act is where things sort of fall apart. Sadly I really liked the game to that point and wanted it to keep it up, but the last few hours jerk you around with things that should have been side quests themselves (reacquire your gear! collect the tadtones!!), something that's unfortunately become a staple of the series under Aonuma (though he didn't even direct this one, I guess TP is his magnum opus) I also had greater hopes for the Gate of Time than going back to one room. I was hoping the rest of the game's environments was through there. =)

The plot wrapping up in underwhelming fashion  as well is too bad because it also had a lot of nice touches. Being a supposed origin story though it had that Star Wars prequel feeling where it kind of ruins elements of the series by trying to over-explain them or because it's boxed in from reverse engineered storytelling. On the other hand, sometimes it doesn't explain things at all, and might as well just be another game in the series.

Here are some specific gameplay and story elements I liked and disliked:

Likes:

-The motion/sword controls.
-Skyloft, the NPCs, atmosphere.
-Music
-Loftwings, flying, skydiving
-Link and Zelda's design/relationship.
-Skyward strikes
-Shields and gear upgrades.
-Great forest tree painted by Vincent van Gogh.
-Creation myth pre-history gravitas, Triforce isn't stamped on everything.
-Fi in the beginning, her detailed analysis (though I didn't really use it, it was kinda neat).
-Ghirahim - Good smarmy toady, foil to Link, nice reveal that he's like Fi.
-Anything to do with Timeshift stones(!).
-Impa.
-Making the Master Sword.
-Levias.
-Seeing Link actually use the Triforce for something(!).
-Showing Zelda's side of the story during the credits.
-The implication that Link and Zelda will be the Adam and Eve of Hyrule =)


I'm forgetting a lot of good stuff that happened early on that really blew me away, through the first three dungeons the game is literally awesome, as was the potential and promise of what could be... but wasn't:

Dislikes:

-Too much STRIKE THIS WAY gameplay made it feel gimmicky when it needn't be. Just let it sell itself.
-The... slow... moving... unskippable... text (holding A helps).
-Simplistic yet repetitive dialogue/explanations. A bad combination, made worse by the above.
-The early world was inhabited by some pretty lame species.
-The dungeons - all of them were kind of rudimentary, not many floors, and there weren't nearly enough.
-Some unmemorable and silly looking bosses.
-Groose - started lame, ended lamer. Should have become unwitting host to Ganon or somehting. Just spitballing here.
-Ghirahim - Maybe too smarmy/foppish, also, should have paid off more, become the crystal in Ganon's head or something integral to him.
-ONLY THREE ENVIRONMENTS BELOW!? Plus, one is desert and another fiery mountain. Not my favorites, and a lot of brown. Could have been explained away better too (young earth, Pangaea, etc).
-The Temple of Ti... Oh, nevermind!
-The harp is totally unnecessary and it shows.
-The dopey dragons, with sort of an exception for Thunder. I liked how the Fire guy was hilariously perfunctory too.
-They're called trials for a reason, and they live up to their name. See below.
-TADTONES!
-Fi later. She's pretty useless unless you like being bothered about your depleted hearts or Wiimote batteries when you think she has a helpful hint. Her mouth agape singing style is somewhat off-putting as well.
-The Gate of Time To One Room (btw if the bad guy is going to destroy the world shortly, you can't go to the future to stock up =)
-The Imprisoned (x3) - stupid and stupid looking.
-Link's wish on the Triforce immediately, predictably being rendered moot. Actually, the whole story is that way in retrospect. It didn't work.
-The lead up to the final battles and the battles themselves were underwhelming.
-Akuma/Demise/Ganon/Non-entity - Stupid, should have just been Ganon or explained Ganon's origin/creation instead of going out of their way to imply it's him somehow, but different, kinda not, yeah, whatever. Could have been much better, but it was tacked on and dumbed everything down instead of making the story or Ganon better.
-As with pseudo-Ganon (he's bad because he's pure evil), it didn't really explain anything. Didn't attempt to be the new definitive Zelda it's being advertised as. Just another one.
-It ends abruptly on an awkward question with a self-evident answer. Not the best closure.


So, I too have mixed feelings. In a nutshell the game started very strong and was a lot of fun for the first two thirds, so much so that I don't want to say it faded dramatically in the last act, but it did; otherwise, it might have been my new favorite. That's a testament to both how fond I was of the beginning and how dissatisfied I was with the end. As it stands, it's uneven and hard for me to quantify; it's fun, but the economical design of the game world is more appropriate for a portable title (which is all the director, Hidemaro Fujibayashi, previously worked on in the series), and something traditionally comprehensive like Twilight Princess would have been better suited to the 25th Anniversary mantle. Play this one if you're at all intrigued by the motion control gameplay and want to fly around a whimsical world in the clouds, but if you want the ideal origin and coming of age story of the series, that's still Ocarina of Time's domain.

Offline Walter

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #210 on: December 31, 2011, 02:02:02 PM »
Agree on all points. The highs for me actually weren't as high as they were for you though. Sounds like you enjoyed the game more, so that ending act must have hurt. That water dragon fetch quest is where the game fell apart, to me. What a fatal blow... Right when the game should be spent building momentum for the final act, it instead resorts to mindless, utterly unnecessary trials. After you'd already DONE all the trials.

Here's what I had to say in a chatlog about that shit.

"I'm collecting things for the water dragon. Tones.
This asshole was just commenting on how I'm the real thing -- a true hero of the goddess.
But lets test you one more time. Because, ya know, FUCK it.
Apparently the triforce on my hand, and the master sword arent enough proof that I've already suffered my fair share of nonsense.

"Wow, sure was nice of the fire dragon to cut through the bullshit and give the chosen hero of the goddess what he's asking for."

"Even with all that shit aside, im a little disappointed in the story so far. It had a lot of promise in the begining. Really liked what they did between Link and Zelda at the outset. Later, not so much.
When they finally sit you down for the full explanation it's: "So, there's this evil guy and we sealed him in the ground."

"How about Zodd as the final boss, eh?"


:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Griffith

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #211 on: December 31, 2011, 10:26:19 PM »
Agree on all points. The highs for me actually weren't as high as they were for you though. Sounds like you enjoyed the game more, so that ending act must have hurt. That water dragon fetch quest is where the game fell apart, to me. What a fatal blow... Right when the game should be spent building momentum for the final act, it instead resorts to mindless, utterly unnecessary trials. After you'd already DONE all the trials.

We're pretty much of the same mind on it, down to exact thoughts. Half of that early high feeling was the potential of what could be, because three dungeons in it was pretty impressive and there was plenty of promise of more to come. Little did I know it had basically already peaked. It needed to be filled out more at the end, but instead became thin and had no sense of the moment. I can't help but compare it to Twilight Princess, which excelled in those aspects even if it started slow with some of the twilight segments (better to start slow and build momentum than completely run out of gas before the end). TP also had huge dungeons and lots of them, each basically a love letter about the series to Zelda fans, along with all the stuff you had to do in-between and plenty of side quests if you liked. TP may have ended up feeling like less than the sum of its parts, and I'd still say the opposite of Skyward Sword, but TP just plain had MORE and set a precedent for my expectations as far as content goes that plain wasn't met. Though, that would be difficult since TP exceeded all my expectations in that regard, "I can't believe they had another huge dungeon, wow. Oh, they're referencing the Kokiri forest and Master Sword in the woods, nice... AND tying it in with the Temple of Time, very nice... AND YOU GO BACK IN TIME AND PLAY A HUGE TEMPLE OF TIME DUNGEON!? HOLY SHIT!!!" That was like in the middle of the game still and they hadn't even fully turned on the dramatics yet.

Anyway, I hoped after the first three dungeons in Skyward Sword there'd still be at least six more but as the game went on I suspected they might sell it short and my fears were confirmed and beyond. I actually wish it had ended earlier, less might have been more considering what more we got (TADTONES!). Also, like I said the dungeons in it are straightforward and even repetitive in their themes. That's fine early on, but it had to build from there and just didn't. Instead it kept going back to the beginning and covering the same (sacred) ground.

BTW, a little thing I liked about TP and they kept up here was having more dungeons that weren't necessarily designated dungeons or temples but more found locations like the "Goron Mines." They took that a little too far here though with the stirring designation, "The Lanayru Mining Facility." It's a fine line, but they crossed it there. =) Still, I might have forgiven them had they added the Faron Sewage Processing Plant and Eldin Box Factory. Zelda is exploration and dungeons, not time-sinking trials and chores, Aonuma or whoever's in charge now.

Offline Aphasia

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #212 on: January 15, 2012, 08:23:16 PM »
Well, I just finished Skyward Sword!  I certainly enjoyed the experience.  I liked a lot more than I didn't like.

Things I loved:

The Music was pretty amazing at times.  The music in some of the dungeons was forgettable.  I don't know if they were doing that on purpose to give it more atmosphere instead of being catchy.  Skyloft, sealed grounds, goddess statue music was beautiful and surely going in my all time favorite zelda music playlist.

The flying was really fun, but I don't think they did enough with it besides going from point A to B.  I also wish there was more to explore in the sky.  Bigger islands, other cities, something.  After playing windwaker the sky felt small.  Oh, and flying at night would've been cool.  

Enjoyed the combat and controls.  Didn't have any real problem with them.  

Art style.  LOVED the art style.  And the watercolor effect on distant objects was beautiful.  

Relationship between Link and Zelda.  One of the few games I actually cared about Zelda. : ) Very nice.  I enjoyed all the characters and NPC's.  Something I really appreciate about Zelda games is the charm and humanity of the characters.  They remind me of a Ghibli film at times.  Groose was one of my favorites.  He made me laugh, and he had good development from a total douche to a good friend and reliable good guy with sweet hair.  Granny, Ghirahim, Awesome.

The overall story: I liked it.

The yuck:

The difficulty felt random.  At times it was challenging.  The enemies would take off 1-2 hearts.  I felt like it was a step in the right direction difficulty wise.  But I still yearn for the day when Zelda will be nintendo hard.  I was hoping the battle with demise would have several more forms, each of them being more difficult than the last.  

Some of the dungeons felt repetitive/easy.  Some of the puzzles were really cool.  I loved Sky Keep.  But some of the quests could have been eliminated in favor of something more unique.  

The way the worlds were connected.  I guess I prefer a more open-world design.  Not sure how to fix it, but It felt awkward at times going from one "zone" to another.  And like griffith said, desert and volcano zones were similar.  

FUNKING dialogue made my eye twitch from impatience.  Streamline the shit.

Overall: Some very touching moments.  Some awesome battles.  Enjoyed it very much, It's not my favorite Zelda...but it's top 5.  Hell of a lot more fun than TP, I thought.

And Link should've kissed Zelda.

And this was kind of cool.  In case you hadn't heard of them, the Shoebill stork inspired the loft wings. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 05:22:49 AM by Aphasia »

Offline Griffith

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #213 on: January 21, 2012, 08:41:03 PM »
The Music was pretty amazing at times.

Agreed, the music was at times beautiful, but also largely forgettable. It certainly wasn't as memorable as the Wind Waker soundtrack for example.

Art style.  LOVED the art style.  And the watercolor effect on distant objects was beautiful.

I've actually kind of flipped on this point. Instead of being a nice balance between the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess style, it's like a half-measure because they knew they couldn't make it look any better than TP, which is actually still the most technically impressive Zelda visually (some of those forest environments and lighting are still downright gorgeous). Though, I liked Link's character model here better than his face in TP (where he looks like the feral boy from The Road Warrior), but he's never looked better than in Ocarina of Time 3D. I don't know why they couldn't get him perfect here too.

Groose was one of my favorites.  He made me laugh, and he had good development from a total douche to a good friend and reliable good guy with sweet hair.

Yeah, it was really good development how he switched from one stupid off-the-shelf cliché to another off-screen. :iva:

Granny, Ghirahim, Awesome.

Impa was as cool as she's ever been, but Ghirahim disappointed me when all was said and done, same with the rest of the villains.

The overall story: I liked it.

I technically agree, liked it more than I didn't, but it felt unfinished; with a little more polish it could have been very nice like OoT's simple but evocative story, which leaves a sort of bitter taste in my mouth that they missed the opportunity.

FUNKING dialogue made my eye twitch from impatience.  Streamline the shit.

It goes beyond that too, with the limited size of the story, world, and number of characters this was a great opportunity to do a full voice Zelda game and really there was no reason it shouldn't have been. Would have really gone well with the Disney style graphics/plot and gone a long way towards making it a more modern IT title without losing anything (other than a lot of waiting for text to scroll across the screen; how did they make this worse than ever before?).

Overall: Some very touching moments.  Some awesome battles.  Enjoyed it very much, It's not my favorite Zelda...but it's top 5.  Hell of a lot more fun than TP, I thought.

Yeah, it's definitely more fun, I just wish it had tried as hard with the story and such.

And Link should've kissed Zelda.

Well, in TP Link was apparently a foot fetishist that wanted to fuck dozens of Ilias if he had the power! BTW, if they were going to do a real origin story wouldn't it have to center around the story of the sacred realm in that video? Anything else is just something taking place vaguely in the past.


Anyway, I discovered when searching for his Skyward Sword review that the Zero Punctuation guy does extended written posts that are a bit more serious, though no more lenient.

But what infuriates me about these bumblefucks dismissing my Skyward Sword video with the argument that I'm just biased against Zelda is that in the very same video I reiterated that I really liked Zelda Wind Waker on the Gamecube. This does admittedly put me in a minority, apparently, since most of what it did right has been stubbornly ignored by every console Zelda since. Alright, locking a capable-seeming Princess Zelda in a basement for the last half of the game wasn't doing much for gender relations but the fighting engine worked well, there was an epic free-roaming world to explore and the cartoony visuals will ensure that it never ages poorly. Link was actually able to express emotion and have a visual personality. The first time I saw Link in Skyward Sword I had to stifle a horrified laugh because his exposed nostrils and swollen lips look like he let a swarm of bees practise amateur plastic surgery.

I even liked Twilight Princess quite a lot, although bear in mind I again played the Gamecube, non-motion-controlly version. It had a slow start and was structurally rather similar to Ocarina of Time, but again the game world felt expansive and detailed with lots of lovely varied locations and dungeons. Even if it wasn't a revolutionary take on the concept it was at least an elevation, which is apparently the most anyone expects of Zelda games. The support character, Midna, actually had an interesting arc. I could only think of her with soppy nostalgia as I barely tolerated the monotone creepy-eyed dullard that follows you around in Skyward Sword, endlessly popping out to remind me that my health was critically low while I was busy trying to circle strafe something nasty. And that excruciating is-this-the-emotion-you-call-happiness dialogue in the ending scene made me want to projectile vomit all my innards like a giant party streamer. I mean, at least Navi was enthusiastic, y'know?

So while never quite being what you'd traditionally call a sandbox game, Zelda at its best certainly leans in that direction. Closer to the 'open world' model one associates with Metroidvania, I suppose, exploring new areas once you've unlocked the ability to go there. And what disappointed me about Skyward Sword is that there was a fairly massive downplaying of that exploration element. The game world felt small with just the three questing locations and rather rigid separations between gameplay areas. There didn't seem to be as many opportunities as there usually are to go to places in the open world you'd seen before and can only explore now [that] you've acquired a certain tool, to find optional treasures and all that. I can't even remember any points when you use the whip item in anything except a mandatory story context.

I recommend the whole thing, but that's the core of it, the rest mostly being a critique of the motion controls, Zelda fans and the series in general, and all the padding near the end. He doesn't cover the worst bit of padding though, when you're looking for the ship and you go to the old shipyard, go through the whole place, play an update of Donkey Kong Country, re-fight an old boss, and... the ship's not there. Oh well. Next! There's not even the excuse of finding a clue of where to look next, you're guide already knew. It was literally a required plot segment of Link wasting his time. It struck me at the time as something especially odd, and I can't remember anything else quite like it in the series. Just the worst.

Offline Aphasia

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #214 on: January 22, 2012, 04:47:35 AM »
Agreed, the music was at times beautiful, but also largely forgettable. It certainly wasn't as memorable as the Wind Waker soundtrack for example.

Definitely.  It was odd in that half the music really hit home and the other half was pretty dull.  Maybe because of different composers working on different areas? dunno.

I've actually kind of flipped on this point. Instead of being a nice balance between the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess style, it's like a half-measure because they knew they couldn't make it look any better than TP, which is actually still the most technically impressive Zelda visually (some of those forest environments and lighting are still downright gorgeous). Though, I liked Link's character model here better than his face in TP (where he looks like the feral boy from The Road Warrior), but he's never looked better than in Ocarina of Time 3D. I don't know why they couldn't get him perfect here too.
Most technically impressive for sure, but I still enjoyed Skyward more than TP in this regard.  Maybe because I'm not a big fan of realism in my Zelda games.  TP felt like it awkwardly tried to make these cartoony designs serious.  Though I don't mean to be a hater on TP, that's just me.  My biggest buff with TP was that it felt like I was replaying OOT.  What I love about the Zelda series is when they do crazy shit like Windwaker and everyone loves it.  So I hope next time they really deviate and do something we don't expect.  

I haven't played OOT 3D, but the screenshots look just like the concept art...which is awesome.  Though I wouldn't mind if they went back to the button nosed, red-haired link just for a change.  I always thought he was a fun design.  

Yeah, it was really good development how he switched from one stupid off-the-shelf cliché to another off-screen. :iva:

Impa was as cool as she's ever been, but Ghirahim disappointed me when all was said and done, same with the rest of the villains.

It goes beyond that too, with the limited size of the story, world, and number of characters this was a great opportunity to do a full voice Zelda game and really there was no reason it shouldn't have been. Would have really gone well with the Disney style graphics/plot and gone a long way towards making it a more modern IT title without losing anything (other than a lot of waiting for text to scroll across the screen; how did they make this worse than ever before?).

Hahaha, I'll admit his character has been done before, but for his role in the story I found him charming, though not breaking any barriers on meaningful characters.  I would agree with you on that.  I think the series would benefit from good voice acting, quite a bit.  Those characters are just dying for some decent lip-syncing and fun acting.

Just read the article you linked, I agree with him on the locations/dungeons, though not as strongly.  And I'm cool with motion controls.  Which is a good thing, since I heard someone say they'll be incorporated in future Zelda games.

And I really agree about that part.  I kind of wandered around the area just wondering if there was something else to do or if that was really point, and we had to go somewhere else.  OKIE DOKIE cute robot with a mustache!  Whatever you say.

But Ghirahim was such a great dancer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKUKssBn37g&feature=related


I also wanted to say I agree that it would've been nice to have a better explanation behind the ending.  The whole "Evil just because we need bad guys" never sits well with me.  That's one thing I love about Berserk.  And Majora's mask, the villain was just a kid who got caught up with a powerful toy.  But at least the ending looked badass and had sweet music.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgpuJHLQF98&feature=related Demise really gets whipped in this one.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 04:58:16 AM by Aphasia »

Offline Griffith

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #215 on: January 25, 2012, 01:40:24 AM »
Definitely.  It was odd in that half the music really hit home and the other half was pretty dull.  Maybe because of different composers working on different areas? dunno.

Probably, plus some are big sweeping numbers designed to take advantage of orchestration whiler others... aren't. Plus, a lot of recycling of certain themes which I don't think they should do. If you're not going to reuse the original Zelda overworld theme (arguably the only one you should), no need to keep reusing stuff like the indoors theme from Ocarina. Come up with a new one like that game did.

Most technically impressive for sure, but I still enjoyed Skyward more than TP in this regard.  Maybe because I'm not a big fan of realism in my Zelda games.  TP felt like it awkwardly tried to make these cartoony designs serious.  Though I don't mean to be a hater on TP, that's just me.  My biggest buff with TP was that it felt like I was replaying OOT.  What I love about the Zelda series is when they do crazy shit like Windwaker and everyone loves it.  So I hope next time they really deviate and do something we don't expect.  

I haven't played OOT 3D, but the screenshots look just like the concept art...which is awesome.

Well then, if you like the latest but not ultra-realistic graphics in your Zelda then once again OoT is at the center of the Zelda universe with the 3D edition. The 3D makes it cutting edge, but it's style isn't unlike that of SS. TP loses out because it's loaded with the chores we were complaining about here, and what wasn't completely derivative about it I didn't really like (becoming a wolf, "the Legend of Midna," etc). Still, compare the forest environments in SS to the ones in TP and it suddenly doesn't look so nice, but just a cover for their outdated hardware rather than trying to push it.

Though I wouldn't mind if they went back to the button nosed, red-haired link just for a change.  I always thought he was a fun design.

That would be fun, I think the closest they've come is the Link statue in Wind Waker.

I think the series would benefit from good voice acting, quite a bit.  Those characters are just dying for some decent lip-syncing and fun acting.

Yeah, and again, might as well break what barriers you can. This game was practically made for voice acting, they just didn't do it because they haven't done it before. It's not like you'd have to do something truly radical like have Link talk, though that wouldn't be so terrible if done right for a change.

And I'm cool with motion controls.  Which is a good thing, since I heard someone say they'll be incorporated in future Zelda games.

Agreed, the new motion controls and other control innovations (like the running/leaping) are the best thing about the game and what truly set it apart.

I also wanted to say I agree that it would've been nice to have a better explanation behind the ending.  The whole "Evil just because we need bad guys" never sits well with me.

Yeah, if OoT had the perfect fairy tale story and TP tried to top it with a more epic fantasy feel, this one felt like it was for children and completely unambitious by comparison. I'm not sure what the goal was, and they even had one which was supposed to be to to create an origin myth, but OoT still did that better in its time while also being the quintessential story of Link, Zelda, Ganon and Hyrule without any other gimmicks taking priority.

Speaking of OoT, I'm in the middle of replaying OoT 3D Master Quest and I'm doing everything I can to make it a unique and challenging experience as possible. I'm not using L-targeting, and I've inverted the first person controls to throw me off ever so slightly like the mirrored environments, and I'm playing using only the broken Giant's Knife as my sword, so half the damage of the Master Sword (or equal to the Kokiri sword), no range, and no shield (I'm also wearing no shield, which looks cool with the big sheath, like Guts :guts:) I'm also exploring whatever alternative routes or dungeon order I can do to complete the game. For example, I have the Bow, Hammer, Longshot, and Iron Boots but haven't completed any of the Temples yet, just the Ice Cavern and side quests (I'm eying the Gerudo's Fortress next). If I can find a way back to being a child and getting the Lens of Truth without beating the Forest Temple, I will (perhaps by beating the Water or Fire Temple first, but I'm doubtful it'll work). If not, I'll just beat it, get the lens, and then do something stupid like beat the rest of the Temples in reverse or random order. In any case, the amount of freedom to explore and do what you want is refreshing. Maybe that should be the brilliant new innovation they add to future Zelda's: make it open like the first game, or at least as non-linear as OoT where you weren't completely on rails.

Offline Johnstantine

Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #216 on: September 05, 2012, 01:37:14 PM »
Next Zelda game for the Wii-U will be the biggest, most ambitious Zelda game to date.

They're using the same art style as Skyward Sword, so it should be cool. At first I didn't care for the style, but it eventually grew on me.

Quote
One of the dungeons is said to be an entire forest. “The first test dungeon they made was a giant forest running on early and buggy Wii U hardware — the dungeon was bigger than the Hyrule field in Ocarina, and the whole thing is one dungeon. You use the gamepad to navigate, avoid traps, follow clues etc. It’s dark, lush, with a ton of trees, foliage, some which you have to cut your way through. Its scope and details are unlike anything you’ve seen in a Zelda game”. He added that the Wii U Zelda game is so big, it wouldn’t be possible without the 25 GB Blu-ray based storage that the console uses.

Made me pretty much blow my load when I read that. Skyward Sword was a fun game, but its aspirations were a bit flat for me in terms of the temples.

I'm pretty excited for any Zelda game, so I'm already on board for this.

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #217 on: September 05, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »
It'll take more than that to get me excited.

Offline puppet12ca

Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #218 on: September 05, 2012, 02:59:10 PM »
just a video on the history of the Zelda franchise not a huge fan myself but I found it interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJk7OZrH2Ps

Offline Johnstantine

Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #219 on: September 05, 2012, 03:20:08 PM »
It'll take more than that to get me excited.

I could take my shirt off and read the article to you in a very sexy voice?

Offline Walter

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #220 on: September 05, 2012, 03:46:32 PM »
It'll take more than that to get me excited.
Same. Nothing about that stuff really excited me. A bigger dungeon? More trees to chop down? So far not blowing my skirt up, gentlemen.

I've said it before, but I really think Miyamoto needs to return to the basics of what makes Zelda great, instead of keeping on this one-way rail.
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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #221 on: September 05, 2012, 05:40:24 PM »
From a pure visual perspective, if they can come through with the pastel inspiration for SS, then color me excited. Yes, SS was boring and tedious (navi was annoying?! FI please :schierke:) so I am skeptical....there are no buts, i am very skeptical.

Offline Griffith

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #222 on: September 05, 2012, 06:03:48 PM »
Yeah, we kind of covered this on the podcast with the MGS comparison (right down to the lame portable titles watering down each franchise), but at least Ground Zeroes had impressive graphics for a current gen console. This has an improved version of a purposely less-demanding style and technical comparisons to a game from 1998. Seriously, I'm a backward retro-gaming enthusiast and even I find this quote quite lame:

Quote
The first test dungeon they made was a giant forest running on early and buggy Wii U hardware — the dungeon was bigger than the Hyrule field in Ocarina, and the whole thing is one dungeon.

HOLY SHIT! Buggy hardware? The size of essentially a big room from a 14 year old game? Sign me up! I know, they probably just wanted to work in the obligatory favorable reference to Ocarina of Time early, but that only adds to my bitterness at this point. =)

Offline Icelin

Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #223 on: October 01, 2012, 06:13:56 PM »
Zelda was definitely a childhood classic for me, I still love the series. I haven't got to play every Zelda game but I have played most of them for the big systems. (Never played any hand held systems GameBoy etc.)

Nintendo Zelda, SNES Link to the past, N64 Ocarina of time, N64 Majora's Mask, Wii Twilight Princess.

So I haven't played the Gamecube one (Windwaker I believe)it didn't appeal to me very much very cartoonish looking, I was pretty mad they went that way with Zelda at the time. I have heard though it is a really good game and I should probably check into it.

Also haven't played the new one for Wii, looked decent enough. I will probably pick it up sometime. Just I usually play the PS3 and mmorpg's more now a days.

My favorite would have to be Link to the past, SNES were the glory days of my gaming for sure.

Offline Walter

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Re: The Thread of Zelda
« Reply #224 on: October 04, 2012, 05:34:18 PM »
So I haven't played the Gamecube one (Windwaker I believe)it didn't appeal to me very much very cartoonish looking, I was pretty mad they went that way with Zelda at the time. I have heard though it is a really good game and I should probably check into it.

My favorite would have to be Link to the past, SNES were the glory days of my gaming for sure.
If you like Zelda 3 so much, then I don't see why you'd have a problem with Windwaker's art design. Both are pretty cartoonish. Windwaker's style is transcendent to me. I remember it being not well received at the time, but it's regarded as one of the best-looking games of all time now. It has aged amazingly well, unlike Twilight Princess. You should definitely play it.

That being said, Windwaker has its issues to me. Pacing is a problem. But it has some of the greatest moments in the series.
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