Author Topic: Episode 304  (Read 58066 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #150 on: May 25, 2009, 11:28:39 AM »
If we consider a classic picture of a dwarf, and assuming that their bodies are smaller than the one of an ordinary man(than I wouldn't necessarely say more weak, though), than we may suppose that the suit was created just for the former human wearer?

Well there's no telling what dwarves will look like in Berserk. Don't expect them to be carbon-copies of Tolkien's. Personally, I have a feeling they'll be closer to the mythological representations commonly found in folklore. There's actually a panel showing the silhouettes of a group of elves different from piskies (elves like Puck) when Godot's cave is mentioned by SK that could be close to how Miura will depict dwarves in the future, but unfortunately I don't have it right now (I'll edit this post with it later on).

In any case, considering the armor's general size and looks but also its purpose and the way in which it functions, it does seem likely that it was created to be used by humans. Or do you mean that they only created one such armor? If so, that's also possible.

Offline Marik

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #151 on: May 25, 2009, 12:00:23 PM »
Well there's no telling what dwarves will look like in Berserk. Don't expect them to be carbon-copies of Tolkien's. Personally, I have a feeling they'll be closer to the mythological representations commonly found in folklore. There's actually a panel showing the silhouettes of a group of elves different from piskies (elves like Puck) when Godot's cave is mentioned by SK that could be close to how Miura will depict dwarves in the future, but unfortunately I don't have it right now (I'll edit this post with it later on).

Yes I agree with you. In fact as you say it's more possible that Miura will depict them closer to the mythological representations of folklore.
And yes I know the pic you mean:



I think too that it's quite possible that miura will draw them this way.

In any case, considering the armor's general size and looks but also its purpose and the way in which it functions, it does seem likely that it was created to be used by humans. Or do you mean that they only created one such armor? If so, that's also possible.

Yes, I meant that they could have created just one suit.(Maybe on a special request of a magician).

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #152 on: May 25, 2009, 12:12:38 PM »
And yes I know the pic you mean

Yeah, that's the one, thanks.

Yes, I meant that they could have created just one suit.(Maybe on a special request of a magician).

It's a possibility.

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #153 on: May 25, 2009, 04:25:14 PM »
Talking about the berserker armor I have some speculations. I was wondering if this armor is the last one Guts will wear to the end of the manga? Will there be some elf or dwarf blacksmith at Elfhelm that can make one that does not hurts him? Guts might not be fighting for now, it's my guess. Unless a sudden attack by some sea creature, or one from the new merging worlds. When they arrive at Elfhelm we don't know what kind of welcome they will receive either. So being confirmed in the letter we are 65%-70% you guys think there a chance to see a new armor for Guts? I dont know how far fetched it is, but let me hear your take on it.

Offline Oburi

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #154 on: May 25, 2009, 04:35:10 PM »
I think the Berserker armour that Guts now wears is one of kind. Skullknight once wore it and then Flora kept it for many years. Guts will probably have that armour for the rest of the series, IMO.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #155 on: May 25, 2009, 04:57:58 PM »
some elf or dwarf blacksmith

Dwarves are elves.

So being confirmed in the letter we are 65%-70%

It was 60-70% actually, and please remember it was only a rough estimate that may change before we get there.

As for creating another armor that has all the advantages and none of the inconvenients of the current one, I don't see it happening.

Offline Marik

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #156 on: May 25, 2009, 05:24:47 PM »
So being confirmed in the letter we are 65%-70% you guys think there a chance to see a new armor for Guts? I dont know how far fetched it is, but let me hear your take on it.

I would just consider the use of the Berserker armour: as we know it's more than a simply defence suit, it has been necessary for the whole party survival. So starting from this point, IMO i don't think(unless for some reason of Guts' safety he decide to trow it away) that there will be another armor. But everything is possible.

As for creating another armor that has all the advantages and none of the inconvenients of the current one, I don't see it happening.

Yep, I think as Aaz about it. Thus an armor that would have just the advantages of the current one(and would express the same power) I think that would not use the strenght of a human body, because otherwise we have the problems that we know. it's  the limit of being human, quoting the Count. Then everything could happen, it's just my thought.



Offline Apaar

Re: Episode 304
« Reply #157 on: May 25, 2009, 08:01:30 PM »
What a truly awe-inspiring episode! Really, the whole climax of this chapter has been leaving me breathless episode after episode. But during this latest one it really struck me that the time of change has finally come. I was actually rendered speechless by the vastness of it all.

But after the dust had settled a bit and the grandness of it all had had some time to really sink in, this episode really got me thinking. It seems like this merging of the worlds is a sort of one of a kind event that has never happened before (or at least hasn't happened within any sort of recorded history). Seemingly this is the/a goal that the Idea of Evil has been working towards for Millennia. Now, if this event is indeed a supremely important part of the Idea's plan, then why has it taken so long to succeed?

Apparently Femto was the first of the incarnated God Hand to truely achieve this goal (or at least first one within history). Then what had the incarnated God Hand from previous millennia been up to when it was their time to shine? Did they all fail in this task? Or did all of them have a different task during their time, and now this whole merging-concept is a completely unprecedented plan that Femto was the first one assigned to put into effect? Just for the sake of arguing, I'm now going to assume that all of them had basically the same grand goal as Femto did - merge the worlds thus initiating a dark age. In this case the past incarnations would have failed.

Now this, in turn, gives me hope of the possibility that there might have always before been some unknown force preventing the previous God Hand incarnates from succeeding in their ultimate task, by either preventing the merge of reverting it. And if such a force has existed before, it could very well exist also this time around in one form or another. :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #158 on: May 25, 2009, 08:22:36 PM »
It seems like this merging of the worlds is a sort of one of a kind event that has never happened before (or at least hasn't happened within any sort of recorded history). Seemingly this is the/a goal that the Idea of Evil has been working towards for Millennia. Now, if this event is indeed a supremely important part of the Idea's plan, then why has it taken so long to succeed?

Yes, it's a key event. And it's taken so long because of all the variables needed for it to happen. However, at this point nothing allows us to say it has or hasn't happened before. We just don't know enough about the past. Hell, maybe it's a cycle that repeats itself through history.

Then what had the incarnated God Hand from previous millennia been up to when it was their time to shine? Did they all fail in this task?

Well you're assuming there have been many different God Hands in the past, each with one of its members incarnated with the same goal than Femto. That's assuming a lot. SK's comment in volume 18, saying it's a "once in a millennium" event, doesn't even prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that it has successfully happened before.

Short answer: we don't know. :void:

Now this, in turn, gives me hope of the possibility that there might have always before been some unknown force preventing the previous God Hand incarnates from succeeding in their ultimate task, by either preventing the merge of reverting it. And if such a force has existed before, it could very well exist also this time around in one form or another. :guts:

Possible. However, SK's long-lasting feud with the God Hand somehow doesn't seem to match this hypothesis to me. Isn't he the force that has opposed the God Hand for a thousand years?

Offline Apaar

Re: Episode 304
« Reply #159 on: May 25, 2009, 08:59:04 PM »
Hell, maybe it's a cycle that repeats itself through history.

I have been thinking about that possibility too. Somehow I still hope that this is the one and only time the merging has happened. I just feel it would  in a way diminish the epicness of the whole event, if it was in the end revealed to be just merging number X. Of course, if it has indeed happened before, then for some reason at some point the situation has been reverted. After all, the world has been in its separate state for quite some time now at least.

Well you're assuming there have been many different God Hands in the past, each with one of its members incarnated with the same goal than Femto. That's assuming a lot. SK's comment in volume 18, saying it's a "once in a millennium" event, doesn't even prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that it has successfully happened before.

Thanks for putting all of that back into perspective for me. I had clearly made the mistake of placing too much meaning into SK's words without any real evidence. But I guess there still exists the possibility that SK truly implied that Femto really isn't the first God Hand incarnate, but as you said, there's currently no way to know for sure. Bummer.  :serpico:

Possible. However, SK's long-lasting feud with the God Hand somehow doesn't seem to match this hypothesis to me. Isn't he the force that has opposed the God Hand for a thousand years?

Yes. However, if we follow along the hypothesis that there have existed multiple "sets" of God Hand before this current one, then there of course would be no way of knowing what kind of force would have been required in order thwart them in the past. Even if SK has been the most resilient opposer yet, it doesn't currently seem to be within his power to destroy the God Hand by himself. Even a millennium of experience and a beherit sword may still not be enough.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 09:23:35 PM by Apaar »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #160 on: May 25, 2009, 09:30:47 PM »
Of course, if it has indeed happened before, then for some reason at some point the situation has been reverted. After all, the world has been in its separate state for quite some time now at least.

Well you know how farmland regularly needs to lie fallow? Could be the same thing.

I guess there still exists the possibility that SK truly implied that Femto really isn't the first God Hand incarnate, but as you said, there's currently no way to know for sure. Bummer.  :serpico:

Of course, it's definitely a strong possibility.

Anyway, if we want to keep speculating, we can reflect on what differs between now and then from the little we know. One tentative answer is that organized religion replaced magic users (a religion the symbolism of which perfectly fits Griffith), and that this was apparently combined at some point with a rarefaction of encounters between humans and spiritual creatures. With that in mind, maybe the stronger presence of magic in the world played a role in preventing certain events from happening. But at the same time, a corporeal world filled with magic and spirits evokes worlds closer together than one in which few people believe in magic and where seeing an elf is a rare occurrence. The bottom line is that it's a complicated question no matter how you look at it, and not one we can provide a definitive answer to with our current knowledge.

Yes. However, if we follow along the hypothesis that there have existed multiple "sets" of God Hand before this current one, then there of course would be no way of knowing what kind of force would have been required in order thwart them in the past. Even if SK has been the most resilient opposer yet, it doesn't currently seem to be within his power to destroy the God Hand by himself. Even a millennium of experience and a beherit sword may still not be enough.

But being that old, he would know about the previous God Hand, and might have even witnessed its fall. Wouldn't he also know about this mysterious force then? Wouldn't we have been introduced to it at least in name by now (through Flora, for example)? To me it just sounds like a bit of a deus ex machina. Something that has never been mentioned before, that doesn't act until it's too late and then fixes things up against all odds. Seems too convenient.

Offline Marik

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #161 on: May 25, 2009, 10:22:59 PM »
Multiple God Hand theory is always mesmerizing.
But I wonder why there would be the need to create several God Hand, if Idea can manipulate history and the men.

Moreover it seems that Idea created Griffith in an specific historical period that would have been appropriate for him. And if the final purpose of God seems to bring the light to men through his last incarnate member why this perfection have to disappear?

I mean, if Idea can decide when a God Hand have to born(so in specific historical context) why there would be multiple divine power on earth if everything could be controlled and led to a perfect age?

Offline Oburi

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #162 on: May 25, 2009, 11:53:37 PM »
Multiple God Hand theory is always mesmerizing.
But I wonder why there would be the need to create several God Hand, if Idea can manipulate history and the men.

Maybe the current God Hand is only the second generation of Godhand members, and they are only here because the first generation God Hand perished when they failed to bring the age of darkness the first time around. I have a feeling that this is  :idea:'s second attempt to bring the about an age of darkness after :SK: stopped it from happening the fist time.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #163 on: May 26, 2009, 12:09:32 AM »
I have a feeling that this is  :idea:'s second attempt to bring the about an age of darkness after :SK: stopped it from happening the fist time.
If that was the case, you'd think the GH would care more about SK intervening in events like the eclipse. But no, they just kind of sat around and thought it was amusing.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #164 on: May 26, 2009, 12:10:55 AM »
Maybe the current God Hand is only the second generation of Godhand members, and they are only here because the first generation God Hand perished when they failed to bring the age of darkness the first time around. I have a feeling that this is  :idea:'s second attempt to bring the about an age of darkness after :SK: stopped it from happening the fist time.

I don't think that's the case. If skully stopped it the first time, so he has to stop it this time as well, continuing in a cycle. I just don't see it happening that way. Since the Idea of Evil was created by man's dark emotions, I would assume that there would have to have been many of those dark emotions through a long period of time (let's say some 2000 years) fro the IoE to fully manifest itself and then created all that has been known to us (Apostles,Godhand,events in history). I have no evidence of this, so I am just speculating that the Godhand have been only been these members we know of (Ubik,Conrad,Slan,Void, and Femto).

Offline Oburi

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #165 on: May 26, 2009, 12:16:11 AM »
I don't think that's the case. If skully stopped it the first time, so he has to stop it this time as well, continuing in a cycle. I just don't see it happening that way.

If I understand you correctly, I would say that Guts is taking up Skullknights old spot. And not just SK, obviously Flora had helped and now Schierke is helping Guts.

Offline TheBranded1

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #166 on: May 26, 2009, 12:33:11 AM »
If I understand you correctly, I would say that Guts is taking up Skullknights old spot. And not just SK, obviously Flora had helped and now Schierke is helping Guts.

No, what I meant is if skully stopped them the first time as you suggest, then he will try to do it as many times as they keep coming back. I don't think Guts is taking skull knights old spot by wearing the berserker armor, and if skully by some means perishes he'll have  Guts inherit his armor if that's what you imply. I just see them fighting towards the same enemy but for different reasons.

Offline Apaar

Re: Episode 304
« Reply #167 on: May 26, 2009, 05:41:09 AM »
But being that old, he would know about the previous God Hand, and might have even witnessed its fall. Wouldn't he also know about this mysterious force then? Wouldn't we have been introduced to it at least in name by now (through Flora, for example)? To me it just sounds like a bit of a deus ex machina. Something that has never been mentioned before, that doesn't act until it's too late and then fixes things up against all odds. Seems too convenient.

Good point. If indeed a new God Hand is incarnated once every 1000 years, then it would make sense for SK to have witnessed the event and also perhaps to have been a part of preventing their plans/destroying them the last time. As you said, it's likely we'd probably be a bit more informed about it at this point if that had indeed been the case. But who knows...

I do agree with you on that it might indeed feel too artificial/tacked on for some currently unknown ancient powerful "good" force to just suddenly awaken and save the day. Now I don't think it would feel so artificial if such force would be revealed to have existed in the past. The lack of such stabilizing force (perhaps due to the Idea's previous endeavours) could be the factor that has made the merging of the worlds possible in the first place. If that is the case, then in my opinion, it would make our heroes' task even more daunting since this time they wouldn't be getting any help from a higher power and for the first time the fate of the world would truly be in the hands of mortals. :isidro:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #168 on: May 26, 2009, 12:07:39 PM »
And if the final purpose of God seems to bring the light to men through his last incarnate member why this perfection have to disappear?

Do you really believe the Idea of Evil's goal is to bring light to mankind and create a perfect world for humanity?

I would assume that there would have to have been many of those dark emotions through a long period of time (let's say some 2000 years) fro the IoE to fully manifest itself and then created all that has been known to us (Apostles,Godhand,events in history).

I would say it took longer than that myself. For all we know it might have taken hundreds of thousands of years for the Idea of Evil just to become sentient. I know I've always pictured it as a very slow process myself.

Offline Marik

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #169 on: May 26, 2009, 01:35:51 PM »
Do you really believe the Idea of Evil's goal is to bring light to mankind and create a perfect world for humanity?

Nope. Of course Idea of Evil  said to Griffith that no matter how he will act towards men, it will prove that he is suitable whether he will bring to them pain or salvation. So It seems it's all in Griffith hand.
We know that Idea provide the reasons for everything gruesome bound to human life.
Moreover  there's the Apocalypse depicting the Hawk of Darkness, bringer of the Dark Age.

So it was just a deceptive point of view (due to  Light and Darkness duality) to express the fact that if God foresees everything, and has the power to led anything where he want, then why there would be the need of a necessarily failure from previous God Hand, if he has all the time to wait for proper age and breed?(in fact I remember the words of SK in Albion when he says that his sword may have purposely avoid a critical hit on the beherit apostle..So maybe there's the Idea's will..Or we can just consider this episode)

So if I think of Idea creating several God Hand, it suggest me he always attempts by trial and errors.

Then of course it's just my point of view, it could be totally wrong as well.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #170 on: May 26, 2009, 01:45:57 PM »
Though I've posted about it at length over the past 8 years here on SKnet, my ultimate conclusion about the 1000-years-ago incident is that it's still a puzzle that we can't, and for the sake of our sanity, shouldn't even attempt to solve.

There are clearly variables still yet to be revealed -- pieces of the puzzle missing from the big picture -- to make complete sense of it. We can try to jam everything we know together in a big pile and form it and reform it with words, but in the end it's always going to be a half-understood mess and won't accurately reflect  the TRUE explanation Miura will eventually grant us.

I think it's more beneficial for discussion to review what we know and dwell more on what we DON'T know than trying to build a speculative house of cards on exactly what happened. Because it's those missing pieces that are going to help understand everything.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Shadax

Re: Episode 304
« Reply #171 on: May 27, 2009, 04:51:02 PM »
I don't get where the idea of multiple generations of Godhands come from.. It just doesn't seem to make sense. or fit. It would really cheapen the godhand as beings or the Idea as an ultimate puppetmaster.

This seems the one plan Idea has been cultivating and it doesn't really seem like it has failed before or some such, but has been ongoing since ages. It's plans just are extremely long term.


As for the next episode: I really hope they get back to Guts and co very soon. I might be a minority, but I didn't find the stuff with Griff and Ganishka all that exciting.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #172 on: May 27, 2009, 04:59:20 PM »
I don't get where the idea of multiple generations of Godhands come from.. It just doesn't seem to make sense. or fit. It would really cheapen the godhand as beings or the Idea as an ultimate puppetmaster.

It comes from the fact the capital of Gaiseric's empire is said to have been destroyed 1000 years ago, before the oldest member of the God Hand could have been born according to the 216 years gap between Occultation ceremonies. Yet there are branded skeletons at the bottom of the hole under the Tower of Rebirth, and it's made pretty clear by the narration that they're from that era.

I might be a minority, but I didn't find the stuff with Griff and Ganishka all that exciting.

I don't know what to tell you... It's just too bad you didn't enjoy it considering how big of an event it is.

Anyway, on a different topic, I don't remember anyone pointing out that on pages 12 and 13, we can see the ideal world not just through Ganishka's spawns but also through dead apostles. I'm just bringing it up because we had a discussion about the Vortex of Souls showing up when apostles die recently.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Episode 304
« Reply #173 on: May 27, 2009, 08:48:35 PM »

Anyway, on a different topic, I don't remember anyone pointing out that on pages 12 and 13, we can see the ideal world not just through Ganishka's spawns but also through dead apostles. I'm just bringing it up because we had a discussion about the Vortex of Souls showing up when apostles die recently.

Thanks for bringing this up. Everytime I reread the episode I tell myself I'm going to make a post about it. I wondered what it meant to have the praying-mantis-esque apostle disentegrating like the rest of the mini-shkas, like Ganishka himself appears to be disentegtating.

Is this the census on what we observed on those pages?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 304
« Reply #174 on: May 27, 2009, 08:58:14 PM »
I wondered what it meant to have the praying-mantis-esque apostle disentegrating like the rest of the mini-shkas, like Ganishka himself appears to be disentegtating.

There's more than one apostle whose corpse is shown reacting too. As for what it means, well simply said they're all strongly linked to the deeper layers of the astral world, so their carcasses reacted to the "door" that opened in Ganishka.

Is this the census on what we observed on those pages?

The census?