Is Guts responsible for the age of darkness?

Sup everyone I'm new to SK.net forums

Blaze of Glory

I've been a lurker on these forums a pretty long time and a long time fan of the manga Berserk

As I've discussed on another forum is Gut's the cause for the completion of the Godhand as well as ushering in the age of darkness? I can't help but believe that it is true since he brushed aside a warning from an immortal that leaving behind someone who he considered a friend and who Griffith couldn't admit was also his friend.
 
Blaze of Glory said:
As I've discussed on another forum is Guts the cause for the completion of the Godhand as well as ushering in the age of darkness? I can't help but believe that it is true since he brushed aside a warning from an immortal that leaving behind someone who he considered a friend and who Griffith couldn't admit was also his friend.

Guts has a problem with authority, and he likes to show it!

He isn't directly responsible for the age of darkness, he's just a fairly important player in the whole scheme. And potentially now the most important one who can stop it from going totally hogwild given recent events. Causality set up the entirety of the events taking place, Griffith's rise and fall, and his rebirth, etc etc. Whether Guts had left the Hawks or not, I suspect the behelit would have come back to Griffith in another way and the events would occur. But, causality guided his choice at the time - he wasn't in the interstice until after the eclipse and thus outside the flow of it.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Blaze of Glory said:
Sup everyone I'm new to SK.net forums

Blaze of Glory

I've been a lurker on these forums a pretty long time and a long time fan of the manga Berserk

As I've discussed on another forum is Guts the cause for the completion of the Godhand as well as ushering in the age of darkness? I can't help but believe that it is true since he brushed aside a warning from an immortal that leaving behind someone who he considered a friend and who Griffith couldn't admit was also his friend.

Zodd didn't tell him to not leave Griffith behind. ALl he said was that when Griffiths ambition crumbles Guts will be sacrificed and he will die, in so many words. He didn't even "brush aside" the warning. Did you really misinterpret that scene so poorly?
 
Oburi said:
Zodd didn't tell him to not leave Griffith behind. ALl he said was that when Griffiths ambition crumbles Guts will be sacrificed and he will die, in so many words. He didn't even "brush aside" the warning. Did you really misinterpret that scene so poorly?

I interpreted it correctly thank you very much. Here's the part that makes me mad that he didn't understand even though it was crystal clear at the time that he was one Griffith's greatest assets,his best friend and that leaving him trying to become his "equal" wouldn't count as being the first step to his downfall.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Oburi said:
Did you really misinterpret that scene so poorly?

Hey man, don't be so hard on the guy.

As for the question at hand, I don't believe Guts is responsible for the Age of Darkness. It's the Idea of Evil that set things into motion using Causality to leads things to where they're at now. Guts was merely a part of that plan, same as the 100-year War between Tudor and Midland.
 

Oburi

All praise Grail
Blaze of Glory said:
I interpreted it correctly thank you very much.

No you didn't, not if you think Zodd warned Guts not to leave Griffith.

And as Rhombaad said, one word - Causality. The Idea of Evil has set the stage for the age of darkness, Idea has controlled the events that lead to it. The Idea of Evil is responsible, The Godhand is responsible, and Griffith/Femto is responsible. The age of darkness is a prophecy that happens once every thousand years. Its been in the making way before Guts even existed. They even tell him that he is worthless, his life has no meaning, he has a pitiful existence, hes a piece of shit... He's just a tool in Idea's grand scheme. Your way off if you think Guts is responsible.

Blaze of Glory said:
Here's the part that makes me mad that he didn't understand even though it was crystal clear at the time that he was one Griffith's greatest assets,his best friend and that leaving him trying to become his "equal" wouldn't count as being the first step to his downfall.

? I'm not even sure what your point is. Griffith made it clear that he considers a true friend to be someone who is his equal. Guts understood that and acted on it. It was Griffith who caused his own downfall, he's really more responsible than Guts. He couldn't even handle Guts doing something that he himself said.!
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Blaze of Glory said:
Sup everyone I'm new to SK.net forums

Hi and welcome! :SK:

Blaze of Glory said:
is Guts the cause for the completion of the Godhand as well as ushering in the age of darkness?

Of course not. That's preposterous. Those are events that go way beyond Guts' involvement. It'd be really naive to think it's his fault.

Blaze of Glory said:
I can't help but believe that it is true since he brushed aside a warning from an immortal that leaving behind someone who he considered a friend and who Griffith couldn't admit was also his friend.

You're not quoting what Zodd says accurately. And he isn't "an immortal" (like a member of a caste or something); "Zodd the Immortal" is his nickname. It doesn't confer him a special status. In any case, the point of his little speech to Guts was that he would die during the Occultation ceremony. That's it. He wasn't warning Guts that leaving Griffith would result in the Occultation, he was telling him that it would happen, and that Guts would die then if he was Griffith's friend (since being his friend meant being sacrificed). All of this simply based on Zodd's knowledge of how Occultation ceremonies occur.

Cronus said:
But, causality guided his choice at the time - he wasn't in the interstice until after the eclipse and thus outside the flow of it.

Guts isn't outside the flow of causality.

Oburi said:
The age of darkness is a prophecy that happens once every thousand years.

You have absolutely no basis for saying this. You're confused with Incarnation ceremonies.
 
Guts was a requisite for this all. Noone but Guts could have made Griffith fall like he did in the end. But Guts is not responsible, he is just as much a victim in this.
 

skullnights_pants

I'm a llama!
its pretty simple, fate made it happen, its not anybody's fault

but that way guts 'cheated' fate by being saved from birth tells me that he is one of few people in the berserk world who truly can go against it, apart from that, everybody including griffith himself is controlled by it
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
skullnights_pants said:
its pretty simple, fate made it happen, its not anybody's fault

It was all arranged by causality (not "fate"), which is itself a tool to the Idea of Evil. Berserk's God. It orchestrated it all.

skullnights_pants said:
but that way guts 'cheated' fate by being saved from birth tells me that he is one of few people in the berserk world who truly can go against it

Guts didn't cheat anything. He was saved from death as a newborn, but that's all. It didn't give him any special powers. What sets him apart from the average guy now is the Brand. He was branded during the sacrifice, like all the others, and that means that he exists within the Interstice between the corporeal and spiritual worlds. That's why he's special. But even so, he really hasn't achieved much as far as opposing causality or the God Hand goes.
 

skullnights_pants

I'm a llama!
that is a lot for a mortal, and I think he did cheat fate, I think the whole thing about him surviving against the odds shows that cetain people can make their own destiny

and by fate i meatn casusalty, i am just annoyed by people who are so pedantic as to correct every single minor error on these forums.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
skullnights_pants said:
and by fate i meatn casusalty, i am just annoyed by people who are so pedantic as to correct every single minor error on these forums.
I didn't mean it to be pedantic. I think there's quite a large distinction between the notions of fate and causality.
 

skullnights_pants

I'm a llama!
Fair enough, but I use them interchangably, I don't read berserk enough to remember all the words and stuff.

I think Gutts represents an anomoly in that he should be dead several times but has survived.

You could view is being saved frmo birth as normal, but I see it as a way of showing the viewer that from being born Gutts was definitely different
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
skullnights_pants said:
I think Guts represents an anomoly in that he should be dead several times but has survived.

You could view is being saved frmo birth as normal, but I see it as a way of showing the viewer that from being born Guts was definitely different
Sure, he's different because he's an exceptional human being. Guts is no doubt a struggler, since birth. He's struggled to survive in spite of overwhelming odds. That's the intent of the birthing scene.

But none of this means he's necessarily special when it comes to causality.
 

skullnights_pants

I'm a llama!
When skullknight saved them from the eclipse, you are saying everything is predetermined? I like to think that he escaped his 'fate' that day and since then he has become controller of his own destiny.

Thats how I see it anyway, though you will of course agree with me, this stuff is always open to interpretation.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
skullnights_pants said:
When skullknight saved them from the eclipse, you are saying everything is predetermined?
To quote Void, a guy who really doesn't fuck around with this kind of stuff: :void: "ALL LIES WITHIN THE CURRENT OF CAUSALITY." But yes, I think it's likely that their escape and SKs appearance was calculated within causality. I'll explain later in this post.

I like to think that he escaped his 'fate' that day and since then he has become controller of his own destiny.
Hey wait a minute, I thought your idea was that Guts was special since he escaped death after birth? This clearly isn't the case since Guts was an essential element to Griffith's rise to power during the Hundred Years War, and was also the key that triggered Griffith's downfall, necessitating the God Hand's involvement. Guts' entire development hinges on him growing up by surviving desperate situations that crafted him into this unstoppable battering ram that would later aid Griffith by paving his way to success in the war, and beyond.

Thats how I see it anyway, though you will of course agree with me, this stuff is always open to interpretation.
In this case your personal interpretation is wrong, since there are facts that invalidate it. I can easily think of a number of situations where Guts has been an essential cog in causality's wheels even after the Eclipse and his branding. And many of them are subtle, so I'll name the more blatant ones, where his involvement had a direct play in the outcome of the larger plan.

The most recent one, how else would Ganishka have been defeated at Vritannis, if not by Guts' DS? The apostles were being swatted like flies, and Zodd's plan of dotting holes through him was failing. By your same logic, Casca was also branded during the eclipse, but "escaped death" by being rescued and later gave birth to the being who would become the vessel for Femto's human incarnation. Pretty critical stuff for our current situation.

Going further, I'd say that the compulsion of those following Guts is also peculiar and situational enough for each case to say causality has tipped scales in favor of them meeting in this manner -- likely for some yet unseen role for Guts to play in the future.... But this is where I'm stepping off into the deep end, and going into my interpretation. :guts:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
skullnights_pants said:
I think he did cheat fate, I think the whole thing about him surviving against the odds shows that cetain people can make their own destiny

Well then all I can tell you is that what you think is wrong. He didn't "cheat fate". That's not how it's presented to us in the manga.

skullnights_pants said:
and by fate i meatn casusalty, i am just annoyed by people who are so pedantic as to correct every single minor error on these forums.

If people don't correct your errors, then you will keep making them, right? Will you even know they are errors if nobody points them out? And if you do know, then why make the error in the first place? It might confuse other people that don't know.

skullnights_pants said:
Fair enough, but I use them interchangably, I don't read berserk enough to remember all the words and stuff.

That's Ok really, no one's expected to know everything. It's also why those who remember all the words point out the correct uses though, so that others can use the proper terms as well. And there's a difference between the 2 notions. Subtle maybe, but still a difference, and it matters.

skullnights_pants said:
I think Guts represents an anomoly in that he should be dead several times but has survived.

You could view is being saved frmo birth as normal, but I see it as a way of showing the viewer that from being born Guts was definitely different

What you're saying is incorrect. And it's not a matter of opinion either: it's just not what we're told in the manga. Guts has had a shitty life; he's been struggling since he was born, like Walter said. That's what his birth shows us. The man has had a hard time from the very beginning. But that doesn't make him "outside" of causality. Causality is the principle of causes and effects, it permeates everything. And many people have close encounters with death in the Berserk world. It's nonsensical to think that alone makes Guts special. And by no means should have he been dead either. It's only what Gambino tells him while drunk, and that's out of spite. There's no truth to it. The same could be said of many other characters otherwise.

No, like I told you before, what makes Guts special is that he has been branded. You see, there are 3 worlds in Berserk: corporeal, astral, and idea. The mastermind behind causality exists deep on the ideal world, and perhaps at the deepest level of the astral world as well. Normal people exist on the corporeal world, and they don't have a word to say when it comes to foreordained events. The Skull Knight tells Guts as much at the end of volume 18. But Guts and Casca, having been branded, exist in the Interstice between the astral and corporeal worlds. They're not very deep in, but it's enough to make a big difference. It's also the reason Guts is haunted by spirits at night. They see him because he exists in their world.

And yet, despite this, he's still not free of causality. He's certainly not outside it, and he can't "go against it" or anything like that. He still doesn't really make a difference most of the time. But there are exceptions. At certain very specific times, he is able to do something meaningful (keep in mind it's the same for anyone like him, for example Casca, but also the Skull Knight, and in theory, magic users like Schierke). Those are referred to by the Skull Knight as a "junction of times". Examples of such events: the Occultation ceremony during which Femto was born, the Incarnation ceremony during which Femto was incarnated on earth as a new Griffith, and the demise of Ganishka and subsequent spilling of spiritual light into the corporeal world.

This is all explained black on white in the manga. It's not an interpretation.

skullnights_pants said:
When skullknight saved them from the eclipse, you are saying everything is predetermined?

The Eclipse was a special event, during which things can happen that aren't predetermined. Maybe SK's intervention was not (Ubik and Slan's comments indicate that they didn't expect it, at least). Maybe it was. We can't be sure yet at this point. Things are more complicated than they might seem at first.

skullnights_pants said:
I like to think that he escaped his 'fate' that day and since then he has become controller of his own destiny.

It's something we used to hear often several years ago from people who'd read scans with bad translations. But it's wrong. It's not how it is and that is made pretty clear in the manga.

skullnights_pants said:
Thats how I see it anyway, though you will of course agree with me, this stuff is always open to interpretation.

I strongly disagree. It's not always open to interpretation, and in this particular case it isn't.
 

skullnights_pants

I'm a llama!
Good post Walter, if everything is already controlled by causality, then what will happen to the Berserk storyline, do we not all expect Guts to pwn Griffith at the end?

Of course you can always give examples of how he was a cog in the wheel, for the most part I would agree, but I think there is an underlying moral to the whole berserk storyline, about human spirit going against all the odds, and against destiny

Do you not think certain characters like Skullknight offer at least a 'spanner in the works' in the plans of idea? everything is not absolutely planned, idea is not omnipotent
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
skullnights_pants said:
Do you not think certain characters like Skullknight offer at least a 'spanner in the works' in the plans of idea? everything is not absolutely planned, idea is not omnipotent
If you'd read Aaz' post ["At certain very specific times, he is able to do something meaningful (keep in mind it's the same for anyone like him, for example Casca, but also the Skull Knight, and in theory, magic users like Schierke). Those are referred to by the Skull Knight as a "junction of times"] then you'd see that is already an aspect in the story. Those in the interstice can cause ripples in foreordained events.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
skullnights_pants said:
do we not all expect Guts to pwn Griffith at the end?

Does it have to sound like something a 14-year-old playing Counter-Strike would say?

skullnights_pants said:
Do you not think certain characters like Skullknight offer at least a 'spanner in the works' in the plans of idea? everything is not absolutely planned, idea is not omnipotent

The Skull Knight actually failed to be a spanner in the works just one episode ago. And while the Idea of Evil is not omnipotent, nothing proves it isn't close to being omniscient.
 
I personally like to believe that Guts might not be able to go against causality, but that he does have a say in how he plays his role in it, being the struggler that he is. He will play his part, but in his own way, unlike a helpless puppet as most of the other people are. He is allowed to improvise.

But...., basically, being the star of a manga means Guts will always follow fate or causality. Otherwise it wouldn't be very entertaining or readable literature. (yes, I called Berserk literature, put THAT in your pipe and smoke it, elitists:p)He has to follow the plot :p Even the Idea has to and is as much a slave as everyone else instead of an end all puppetmaster. Reminds me of Sophie's World hehe(if you aren't a philosophy student, you can skip over half of that book)

:ganishka:
 

skullnights_pants

I'm a llama!
This isn't the first time a fifth godhand reached earth, am I correct, when we look back at the old tales of those angels and a character who many assume was Skullknight.

- I can't spculate the last time this happened, it wans't 'successful'

- Even if the godhand's agenda was, what would be the end result, and what purpose would they then have in this world?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Shadax said:
I personally like to believe that Guts might not be able to go against causality, but that he does have a say in how he plays his role in it, being the struggler that he is. He will play his part, but in his own way, unlike a helpless puppet as most of the other people are. He is allowed to improvise.

Any way you cut it, it comes down to what Walter and I said. Everybody plays their part in their own way, but their own way is how they're supposed to play their part in the first place. That's causality. Someone does something because he wants to, and he wants to because of some reason, and so on. The small details don't even necessarily have to be accounted for as long as the result is there. And the one orchestrating this is the Idea of Evil, who dwells in the heart of every human being.

skullnights_pants said:
This isn't the first time a fifth godhand reached earth, am I correct, when we look back at the old tales of those angels and a character who many assume was Skullknight.

Actually, we can't be sure of that. It's a possibility that arouses some discrepancies. There are many discussions spread over several threads on the subject, feel free to check them to learn more about it.
 
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