Author Topic: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?  (Read 34456 times)

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Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2009, 04:40:20 PM »
Honestly, I think the reader is supposed to feel sympathy for the apostles, especially examples like the Count, Rosine and Ganishka, where we're given explicit background details about how/why they became apostles.

If you DON'T feel sympathy, you're doing it wrong  :carcus:

Yea your right, and I do. I sympathize with them because of their tragic human lives, but I think the way the thread is titled, do you feel for any apostles? Yea I feel hatred toward the apostles, but I can sympathize with their human lives. I don't feel bad for them anymore though.

YES THEY DESERVE TO DIE AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL!!!

not the correct movie, i know.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2009, 04:44:07 PM »
But I never spoke outside of the premise.

Alright then.

Isn't it?

IoE > God Hand > Apostles > Humans et al.

Looks pretty straightforward to me.

Not as a way to explain why what happened to Griffith differs from what happens to an average apostle, no. I think it's simplifying things to the point of being inaccurate. Zodd ranks higher on the food chain than most. Femto is a different kind of being altogether (and you were talking about Griffith before the sacrifice anyway). And he was born through a specific process, during a different kind of ceremony.

I didn't suggest either. I was merely saying Griffith sold his soul in the same way the Apostles did, except the reward was greater for Griffith.

Ok. Though they don't actually sell their soul.

Thanks for the summation. I have read Chap 303, but I haven't seen anyone reflect on his backstory.

That's episode 303, not chapter (we are currently in the chapter of Falconia). You can read the corresponding thread if you're interested in reading people's reaction to his backstory.

By the way, I take it this part is a translation error:
'Obsessed with me, to make sure my younger brother wouldn't get to the throne, my mother poisoned him when he was only six.'

Wherever this is from, it's wrong, yes.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2009, 05:11:47 PM »
Rosine, of course.  You're meant to, after all. 

I kind of feel bad for Griffith for sacrificing his friends, humanity and chance of happiness all for his dream, which is really a puppet show for an evil god. I think we'll see him realize his folly toward the end of the series. His character development isn't through, I'd imagine.

Yeah, I expect this is true.

Quote from: Aazealh
He plays his part willingly and he gets the most from it. The beings who compose the God Hand are the direct agents of the Idea of Evil.

Good point, however I still think that fits with the above.

I sympathize with them because of their tragic human lives, but I think the way the thread is titled, do you feel for any apostles? Yea I feel hatred toward the apostles, but I can sympathize with their human lives. I don't feel bad for them anymore though.

Yeah that's similar to how I feel.


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YES THEY DESERVE TO DIE AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL!!!

new keyboard you owing me  :puck:

Offline Henry Spencer

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2009, 08:16:48 PM »
Sorry Aaz, I was merely speculating about where Griffith/Femto may go from here. :sad:

You felt for Ganishka? That's interesting. I haven't heard much feedback on his backstory. Would you care to divulge? I'd like to know your reasons. :)

Well, he lived in constant fear throughout his human life. It got to a point where he became so paranoid and overcome with fear, that he killed his own baby brother in order to secure his place on the throne. Even at a young age he was having his own mother trying to kill him, probably since she didn't meet her "standards" or something like that. His own father became fearful of him. Then his own men were conspiring against him and since he had the Beherit, he was spared the same fate as the rest of his family, in a sense he broke away from the chain he was bound to and didn't wish to be bound to fate anymore. He wanted to defy those who had control over him (henceforth his quest to defy Griffith). Sure he became barbaric in the end, with no redeemable qualities as an Apostle at all, but I can't help but feel sorry for the poor guy going through what he did when he was human. Wanting to defy Griffith is something that I admired in him too. It was a grey area for me, in the same way that it was with the Count and Rosine.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2009, 08:36:31 PM »
Good point, however I still think that fits with the above.

Well I wasn't replying to Walter.

Sorry Aaz, I was merely speculating about where Griffith/Femto may go from here. :sad:

Don't be sorry man, it's cool. I think you just got a little carried away. :serpico:

It got to a point where he became so paranoid and overcome with fear, that he killed his own baby brother in order to secure his place on the throne. Even at a young age he was having his own mother trying to kill him, probably since she didn't meet her "standards" or something like that.

Sorry to nitpick, but you've got the order wrong here. He killed his brother because his mother had tried to kill him first, and she did that so she could put his brother on the throne, like I told Doc earlier. It wasn't a matter of meeting standards, she just preferred one child to the other (morbidly so).

Then his own men were conspiring against him and since he had the Beherit, he was spared the same fate as the rest of his family, in a sense he broke away from the chain he was bound to and didn't wish to be bound to fate anymore.

The conspiracy was led by his son, more specifically. That's important.

He wanted to defy those who had control over him (henceforth his quest to defy Griffith).

Well when he was assassinated one could argue that he was the one who had control over everyone else already.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2009, 12:02:27 AM »
By the way, I take it this part is a translation error:
'Obsessed with me, to make sure my younger brother wouldn't get to the throne, my mother poisoned him when he was only six.'

That makes it sound like Ganishka was being protected by his mother, instead of the opposite. Seems to be confusing the two brothers.

I'm not sure where you got that translation from, but it's definitely incorrect. Check out Puella's translation of the episode here: http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=10225.msg168141#msg168141.

Edit: Whoops, I didn't realize there was a second page, hehe.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 04:21:13 PM by Rhombaad »

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2009, 02:03:00 PM »
Quote from: Aazealh
Ok. Though they don't actually sell their soul.

Figure of speech. :P

Quote from: Aazealh
Wherever this is from, it's wrong, yes.

Thanks for clarifying. No wonder I was a little muddled up when I first read that episode. D:



@Henry - Some good feedback there. I'm really looking forward to seeing the backstories of the other Apostles, and perhaps the God Hand crew - particularly Void and his possible connection to Gaiseric/SK.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2009, 04:29:32 PM »
I'm really looking forward to seeing the backstories of the other Apostles, and perhaps the God Hand crew - particularly Void and his possible connection to Gaiseric/SK.

I imagine we'll get backstories on all the members of the God Hand. :void:

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2009, 05:27:16 PM »
I imagine we'll get backstories on all the members of the God Hand. :void:

Hopefully I'll be alive to read them.  :ganishka:

Online Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2009, 05:52:32 PM »
Hopefully I'll be alive to read them.  :ganishka:
Are you in danger of dying of some fatal disease in the next 8-10 years?
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2009, 06:50:54 PM »
Hey, anything could happen in 15 years or so. We've waited 20 years, and we still know nothing behind the original God Hand.

Online Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2009, 06:54:47 PM »
Hahaha, the ORIGINAL God Hand? Ohh, I thought you meant the one and ONLY God Hand. :ganishka:

I don't think Miura's under any obligation to go into each of their stories. Their origins were never foreshadowed, and honestly, I only really expect a brief explanation of Void's background and how/if it relates to Gaiseric/SK. But Conrad, Slan and Ubik? I'm not betting any money we'll find out too much more about them.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2009, 07:02:44 PM »
Well, I'd be happy with seeing Void's backstory sometime soon. It makes me wonder how the order of precedence worked, as Void was the first God Hand. Perhaps the angels sent to destroy Gaiseric were used as the harbingers of the God Hand.

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2009, 07:20:37 PM »
What? Can you explain how? I'm dying to hear this.

Sorry it took me so long to respond, too many video games + college quarter ending celebration yesterday!

However, I don't see what's so hard to understand. I want to see Guts exact his revenge against Griffith/Femto as much as the next person, but I was honestly rooting for Griffith before the eclipse. His ambitions seemed noble enough, and fuck knows he seemed like the right person to become King of Midland. I had this kind of Robin Hood/King Arthur attachment to Griffith and that made me really want to see his ambitions be fruitfully rewarded.

What happened at the eclipse was extremely disturbing, and honestly left me a bit shell-shocked. I still wanted to believe that somehow, someway, everything would be okay again. I was able to irrationally give explanations to myself for what Griffith did at the eclipse for a little while, I even had a pretty intense discussion with friends of mine about how The Hawks were willing to die for Griffith's dream, and that made it okay. It didn't take long for me realize that there was nothing right about it, but just for a little while I did try to rationalize it. For me, there's a very deep emotional attachment to the characters in the story, and they don't just go away in an instant.

Online Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2009, 07:26:15 PM »
It makes me wonder how the order of precedence worked, as Void was the first God Hand. Perhaps the angels sent to destroy Gaiseric were used as the harbingers of the God Hand.
We don't know that Void was the first. And please don't use this thread as the 15 billionth "what happened 1,000 years ago" thread.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2009, 07:52:19 PM »
Though not an apostle, I carried a bit of sympathy for Femto for a little while after the eclipse.

However, I don't see what's so hard to understand. I want to see Guts exact his revenge against Griffith/Femto as much as the next person, but I was honestly rooting for Griffith before the eclipse. His ambitions seemed noble enough, and fuck knows he seemed like the right person to become King of Midland. I had this kind of Robin Hood/King Arthur attachment to Griffith and that made me really want to see his ambitions be fruitfully rewarded.

What happened at the eclipse was extremely disturbing, and honestly left me a bit shell-shocked. I still wanted to believe that somehow, someway, everything would be okay again. I was able to irrationally give explanations to myself for what Griffith did at the eclipse for a little while, I even had a pretty intense discussion with friends of mine about how The Hawks were willing to die for Griffith's dream, and that made it okay. It didn't take long for me realize that there was nothing right about it, but just for a little while I did try to rationalize it. For me, there's a very deep emotional attachment to the characters in the story, and they don't just go away in an instant.

I don't know, maybe I just don't agree. Feeling bad after the Eclipse? I can see sympathizing with Griffith after a year of torture (which was still his own fault anyway) but after? Not me man, no way. He just sacrificed everyone and raped Casca. Even during the Golden Age arc I loved the character but I never really felt sorry for him. His was always on top and he knew it. In the end his arrogance got the best of him. He used the princess, got caught, and then when the King confronted him he was a smart ass and for that the king started beating on him. Then after a year of torture The Hawks come to rescue him and he still sacrifices them to a horrible death.

Personally I never thought of Griffith as a Robin hood/King Aurthur type. He didn't do good deeds for the sake of the people, he did it for himself, for his dream. He was selfish. Anyway I never felt bad for him. I love the character, but hate what he represents.

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2009, 07:38:43 PM »
We don't know that Void was the first.

I bet you my *Winnebago he is!

And please don't use this thread as the 15 billionth "what happened 1,000 years ago" thread.

My humble apologies.




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Offline skullnights_pants

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2009, 11:16:10 AM »
yeh roshinu and in the DC game the little kiddie and the nun

non apostle-wise definitely vargas, kinda sad

Offline Black_Devil

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2009, 02:18:39 AM »
Hahaha, the ORIGINAL God Hand? Ohh, I thought you meant the one and ONLY God Hand. :ganishka:

I don't think Miura's under any obligation to go into each of their stories. Their origins were never foreshadowed, and honestly, I only really expect a brief explanation of Void's background and how/if it relates to Gaiseric/SK. But Conrad, Slan and Ubik? I'm not betting any money we'll find out too much more about them.

Just posting to say that I hope you're wrong on that, as they're still such crucial figures to the story that I'd like to see atleast who they were pre-godhand, especially Slan. :o

Only apostles I felt sorry for were the Count, Ganishka, Rochine, Mozgus(he was a jackass, and a religious sadist, but he truly did believe in his god, which was the sad part :mozgus:), and the Beherit Apostle(which is surprising to me that he wasn't mentioned yet.) Just him growing up treated like the trash of society, only to be turned into that shape, and then be sacrificed along with guts/Casca's child to bring about Griffith's new vessel. I mean I know that's what he wanted, but that was still a sad way to go. I don't think he killed anybody either though, but I think he infused mozgus with apostle powers(aaz will correct me though I'm sure of it.)

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2009, 02:39:47 AM »


Only apostles I felt sorry for were the Count, Ganishka, Rochine, Mozgus and the Beherit Apostle(which is surprising to me that he wasn't mentioned yet.)

Well thats almost all of the ones that we got a backstory on. And Mozgus wasn't an aposlte.

Offline Black_Devil

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2009, 02:44:03 AM »
^which is why I added that part about the beherit apostle injecting power into him, so what would you qualify him as? a quasi apostle? meh, if not I'll just take him out the list.

EDIT: also, you seem miffed at that someone could feel for Femto, you could find sympathy for a lot of disgusting figures, sure I mentioned the apotles we got back story on, but that shows they're not all just some 100% evil raping monsters, they're still human when you get to the bottom of it, and that may be a chilling fact, but that can also allow for some sympathy, even for Femto.(not an apostle, but just using him as part of my point.)

Offline slan69

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2009, 05:07:54 AM »
Hehehe well im sure we would all like to know how Slan became what she is know that is if the God Hand were ever even human to begin with
Quote -

Love, hate, pain, pleasure, life, death. Everything is there… This is human... This is demonic!

~Slan~

Offline Oburi

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2009, 06:17:29 AM »
EDIT: also, you seem miffed at that someone could feel for Femto, you could find sympathy for a lot of disgusting figures, sure I mentioned the apotles we got back story on, but that shows they're not all just some 100% evil raping monsters, they're still human when you get to the bottom of it, and that may be a chilling fact, but that can also allow for some sympathy, even for Femto.(not an apostle, but just using him as part of my point.)

They cut ties with their humanity when they sacrificed someone they held most dear to them. Thats when I stop feeling sorry for them. Sure I sympathize with their human lives, but like I already said now it's just hatred. I'm with Guts when it comes to apostles. Even if they beg keep stabbing them to death and make them feel pain again and all that. What Guts says in the first few volumes is how I feel about them. And they are 100% evil, never forget that.

Offline Dar Klink

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2009, 07:26:24 AM »
I think it's hard not to feel for some of the apostles, since, like a lot people have mentioned, they're still human based in the end. The worst part is that Guts has been close to being as bad as any apostle at some points in the story due to his own anger and the horrible situation he's in with  :beast:. I'm sure some of the apostles have felt the way Guts does at some point, and were barely pushed over the edge, while Guts has been tottering on it for a while. Think of the despair some of them went through that caused them to do the horrible act of sacrifice, I'm sure at the moment, in their mind it was the only way to survive, I don't think many of them did it for just power.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 07:40:13 AM by Darklink286 »

Offline Grail

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2009, 07:37:01 AM »
And they are 100% evil, never forget that.
Do you really think that's fair, though? Apostle or not, it cheapens a character when you start throwing terms like "100% evil" around. :azan: For apostles like the Snake Baron or Wyald, sure, you could probably say that they are, but I don't think that you can get away with calling Rosine or the Snail Count COMPLETELY evil. Remnants of their humanity come through pretty clearly in their respective portions of the story, so I think it's safe to say that Miura intends the reader to sympathize with apostles, despite understanding what horrible monsters they've become.

Even when they sacrifice those who are dearest to them, you have to remember that it's done in a state of extreme emotional turmoil. There's certainly no excuse for what they did, but you can see how their regrets manifest themselves. Just look at the Snail Count's relationship with Theresia, or Rosine's with Jill. Both are obviously trying to recapture feelings and experiences they'd had before they became apostles, and in resisting a change that they've brought upon themselves, the reader can identify with them, in a bizarre, twisted way. :carcus: