Author Topic: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?  (Read 35373 times)

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Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2009, 03:32:39 PM »
Thanks for answering my questions, Aazealh. Perhaps I should have PM'ed you. Thread searching is a good point too, but some of these topics go waaay back and I wanted your current opinion.  :guts:

I think you're right about Griffith's hesitation. The tension and drama of that scene doesn't make for skimming, which is why some of us may have fixated on the pause.

I also agree that Guts was primarily Griffith's object of revenge, with Casca as the means for it. It was the ultimate act of dominance: to show Guts he had regained control of his ego. And of course, take advantage of Casca's anxieties for good measure.

Quote from: KazigluBey
That's like saying Satan was trying to temp Jesus because he was trying to "help him" in a manner that would truly benefit Jesus, not one in which he would be tricked.

I have no doubt that the God Hand are agents of evil. I've never said otherwise. *IF* Griffith protected the Midlanders from harm (that he contrived) then I would not adjudge that pure evil. That doesn't mean I don't resent him for doing it, and I'm not trying to make a pro-Griffith argument or anything like that.  :griffnotevil:

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2009, 03:37:14 PM »
I'd say that tricking people into believing you are their savior while all the while knowing it is a lie is pretty evil. It's premeditated.
Now I ride with the mocking and friendly ghouls on the night wind
And play by day in the catacombs
I know that light is not for me, save that of the moon
Yet in my new wildness and freedom I welcome the bitterness of alienage
For I know always that I am an outsider...an outsider...stranger in this century...for a time
A stranger among those who are still...men

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2009, 03:44:59 PM »
I'd say that tricking people into believing you are their savior while all the while knowing it is a lie is pretty evil. It's premeditated.

No doubt he's fashioned himself into a false idol, but if people could live in peace under that banner I don't think that's pure evil. Whether that actually happens or not...

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2009, 04:13:51 PM »
Thread searching is a good point too, but some of these topics go waaay back and I wanted your current opinion.

Enough of them don't go way back though, otherwise I wouldn't have pointed it out. And I think my opinion has remained mostly constant over the years. But whatever, it's no big deal. I'm just glad I could help you. :SK:

*IF* Griffith protected the Midlanders from harm (that he contrived) then I would not adjudge that pure evil.

I'm sorry to say but I still find this kind of irrational. If someone designs a lesser evil in order to fool people into a greater evil, then he's just evil, regardless of how he appears to them early on as he's deceiving them and leading them to their doom. I don't see how it's redeeming in any way. And since the last time we had that discussion, we've seen the emergence of the rest of the God Hand into the world. That should tell you something about the supposed "salvation" Griffith is bringing.

Offline Henry Spencer

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2009, 09:40:14 PM »
For some reason when I look at that scene I picture everything happening kinda slowly at that point, when in reality the amount of time Skully is there is probably only about 20 seconds or less.

I think in vol. 20 when he saves Luca from her fall is a good indicator at just how fast Skully can move (Skully vs gravity in a sense). The fact that he can pretty much have his horse run on nothing but air is also impressive. It isn't any wonder why he has kept the same horse for so long. :SK:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2009, 09:59:44 PM »
I think in vol. 20 when he saves Luca from her fall is a good indicator at just how fast Skully can move (Skully vs gravity in a sense).

One of my favorite related moments is in the Qliphoth in episode 218. Schierke, Isidro and the captured women from Enoch are moving along in a tunnel but surrounded by trolls, when suddenly "something very fast" comes through, passing them by and killing all the trolls before any of them can even see what it is.

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Offline Gobolatula

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2009, 08:14:40 AM »
For me, I feel the most for Irvine. I'm a sucker for the lone outcast type. Plus, (get ready for nerd rationality) he's a HUNTER and has a sweet bow... I can relate, because I play a hunter and have a sweet bow in World of Warcraft..... yeah...

Out of all the apostles, he seems the least evil. Even though he's following that jerkhead Griffith's every order, he just seems like a chill dude. This is shown particularly in the scene where he's playing music in the dark woods and Sonia comes up and hangs out with him for a bit. He opens up to her, she opens up to him, and he even blankets her when she falls asleep.

And even more recently, after he transformed, he protected Sonia. Right on. Stand up guy, if ya ask me.

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2009, 10:03:43 AM »
But whatever, it's no big deal. I'm just glad I could help you. :SK:

Appreciate it.

I'm sorry to say but I still find this kind of irrational. If someone designs a lesser evil in order to fool people into a greater evil, then he's just evil, regardless of how he appears to them early on as he's deceiving them and leading them to their doom. I don't see how it's redeeming in any way.


I wouldn't call it redeeming, because Griffith is still evil. But I think unadulterated evil would e.g. establish Midland then turn its people into cattle for the Apostles. Whereas in my scenario, the Midlanders live in peace under Griffith. Do you get what I'm saying?

And since the last time we had that discussion, we've seen the emergence of the rest of the God Hand into the world. That should tell you something about the supposed "salvation" Griffith is bringing.

I did say whether or not he protects Midland is another thing altogether.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2009, 11:31:20 AM »
I wouldn't call it redeeming, because Griffith is still evil. But I think unadulterated evil would e.g. establish Midland then turn its people into cattle for the Apostles. Whereas in my scenario, the Midlanders live in peace under Griffith. Do you get what I'm saying?

I mean no offense, but what I get is that you lack imagination on this issue. Turning some people into cattle for the apostles is far from being the culmination of evilness, if there is even such a thing. It's merely the equivalent of what Ganishka was doing in Wyndham. And the apostles never needed Griffith in order to do that in the first place anyway (see volume 1). It's small-time stuff. And it might not even be in Griffith's power to do so for the whole country, logistically-speaking. There isn't an infinite number of apostles available, and people's admiration for Griffith hasn't made them into mindless zombies yet. It'd be impractical and, from a story-telling point of view, rather awkward.

The events taking place right now and the unknown goal of the God Hand are undoubtedly on a much grander scale than this. To be honest, your idea of what would constitute the supreme display of evilness on Griffith's part seems extremely short-sighted to me. You're comparing the basic murder of a comparatively small group of people to the (possibly eternal) damnation of the entire world on a much deeper level.

I did say whether or not he protects Midland is another thing altogether.

Yeah, and I myself made that point to you even earlier. What matters though is that we already know he's up to no good. You keep talking of protecting Midland, but protecting it against what? The threats he deliberately brought into the world? In order to bring about something even worse? Then it's not truly protection.

Offline Doc

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2009, 04:39:16 PM »
The cattle idea was strictly for Midland. I didn't say there wouldn't be something far more terrifying happening to the world at large. For example, while the rest of the world is screwed (by the merging of layers), Midland becomes a haven for Griffith and his kin.

I'm happy enough to accept Griffith is a bad egg and move on from this.  :griff:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2009, 05:42:35 PM »
The cattle idea was strictly for Midland.

And I took it as being strictly for Midland and replied in kind.

I didn't say there wouldn't be something far more terrifying happening to the world at large. For example, while the rest of the world is screwed (by the merging of layers), Midland becomes a haven for Griffith and his kin.

Well, Griffith and his kin don't really need a haven as far as we know: they're the bad guys. :ganishka: And I wouldn't like to live in a place where the God Hand dwelt, anyway. But going back to your idea, if Midland ever became a haven for humans for some reason (something I myself speculated on in the past), then it would probably only be part of the general plan of making the rest of the world a living nightmare. So in the end it's still not as if Griffith would have done it out of some good sentiment (especially if it's only temporary or if there's a catch of any kind).

I'm happy enough to accept Griffith is a bad egg on move on from this.  :griff:

Haha alright then, it's really all it comes down to anyway.

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2011, 07:54:02 PM »
I don't really "feel" for apostles, as much as I'm just interested to know more.

To see people willing to do that and then seeing them degrade, I always keep in the back of my head "These were once normal people" and that's what makes me fascinated by them.

Let's take one that was just a cut out personality wise, the Swine Apostle that was Guts' first victim. He's a little old man dressed in rags. Why is he a demonic pig? Who was that guy before? Or even the female apostle that Guts kills (and who killed Corkus). That black one with the eyes and tenticles who mortally wounded Judeau. I want to know all their stories.

Or even, the very creepy scene in volume 12 with Apostles (still in human form) waiting before the Eclipse. It's just very interesting to see the degradation of humanity like that. I want to know each and every one of their stories; you know they must be good. Just like Guts too; they're all just visualizations of degrading humanity.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 01:56:30 PM by C_W »

Offline skullnights_pants

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2011, 12:09:40 AM »
I liked Roshinu, her death was especially poignant in contrast to the other apostles.

Offline Salibu

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2012, 07:47:04 PM »
Hello, brand new to the boards...not brand new to the manga or anime.

Personally, I dont feel sorry for anyone that would murder something they love in cold blood.
While, some of the stories are definetly sad, the apostle still went beyond a normal response.

The count obviously comes to mind. The humanity that remains is irrelevant imo.
Most RPGs:
"YOU ARE THE DESTINED WARRIORS THAT WILL SAVE OUR COUNTRY! HERE, FIGHT WITH THESE WOODEN STICKS UNTIL YOU FIND SOME MONEY."

Offline Truder

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2012, 06:46:36 AM »
Welcome Salibu!  :guts:

I think that I feel for most Apostles. For a normal human to sell their souls to the devil because they were at their most vulnerable.. I think that is tragic. It's really almost forced on them, like it's either they lose their humanity, or most likely suicide. When humans become apostles they're pretty much not themselves anymore, and I find it amazing that characters like The Count and Roshinu kept their bonds with a human close to their soul. (despite it being mostly gone I bet :???:)

Offline Nxa

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #90 on: September 20, 2012, 05:34:29 PM »
Definitely I feel for some of the apostles. That's the brilliant thing Miura does, by depicting seemingly inhuman and ultimately evil creatures that anybody would naturally be repulsed with, merely for their being and appearance. Then he lets us watch them perform unimaginably shocking acts and deeds, which, now that I think of it, are terribly human in a way. Especially when examined through Berserk's inner idea of man; e.g. in vol.13 how Slan with praise described the devastating rape/torture-scene during the eclipse.
And from there he leads us to the backstories, that are usually utterly heart-breaking. That suddenly causes your intense loathing towards the apostles to be overshadowed with grief on their behalf. What could be more tragic, than lost souls that were practically deceived by their own weaknesses when crushed by horrific circumstance. Their despicable acts E: as apostles only adds to the sadness of their state, since it's a downward spiral from which there hardly is return. There is no mercy, redemption or salvation for them at all.

This description obviously stands for those cases, for which I do feel sympathy. Apostles, that have chosen their path by free will, don't arise any pity, nor do they deserve it, nor are they meant to by the author.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 06:33:48 PM by Nxa »

Offline Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #91 on: September 20, 2012, 05:44:23 PM »
Apostles, that have chosen their path by free will, don't arise any pity, nor do they deserve it, nor are they meant to by the author.
All apostles make the choice to sacrifice and become these creatures by their own free will. I think I get your meaning, but I believe it's reductive to say that there are some apostles that aren't as worthy of pity. All the stories that we've been shown of apostle origins, or even hinted at, involve tragedy—the Count, Rochine, Niko, Balzak, Irvine.

I presume you meant for apostles like Wyald who don't seem to exhibit any grief over their plight. But remember that every sacrifice has to be important to the person in order for it to have any value, and to be accepted by the God Hand. To quote Slan, an appropriate sacrifice is one that is like "giving up a part of yourself."
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Nxa

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2012, 06:00:43 PM »

Guess I didn't know how to word it right...

All the stories that we've been shown of apostle origins involve tragedy—the Count, Rochine, Niko, Balzak, Irvine.

I presume you meant for apostles like Wyald who don't seem to exhibit any grief over their plight.

I looked at it from the way of presentation, yes. When a tragic apostle is portrayed correctly (as they all are), I reply with a load of grief and sympathy. When portrayed as a heartless douche apostle, I bustle with holy wrath and spit venom on them.

I solemnly place all apostles in my personal bad guy-division, no exceptions. But I also enjoy all the emotions Sir Miura allows me to experience through his marvelous character depiction, no matter where I place them on my moral map.

...Don't really know if that cleared it up at all.  :schierke:

Offline Walter

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #93 on: September 20, 2012, 06:06:56 PM »
I think we're on the same page, I'm just trying to reiterate that all apostles have had tragedy in their lives, whether we're expressly shown it or not. It's implicit in their sacrifice.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Nxa

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #94 on: September 20, 2012, 06:31:15 PM »
I think we're on the same page, I'm just trying to reiterate that all apostles have had tragedy in their lives, whether we're expressly shown it or not. It's implicit in their sacrifice.

Haven't we all?  :guts:
But yeah, I see what you mean. That's the key thing for the apostle-to-be to get the green light from the God Hand.
I guess the most tragic thing ever happened to them is becoming an apostle, though.  :sad:

Offline Wyrm

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2012, 02:54:27 PM »
I don't really know if I feel for any of the apostles.
For now I find apostles such as Locus confusing.
If an apostle is inherently evil why does he care if he struck down his adversaries mounted or on foot?
Is evil in Berserk merely a side of the conflict or can evil be defined as the source of suffering?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2012, 03:35:51 PM »
If an apostle is inherently evil why does he care if he struck down his adversaries mounted or on foot?

Let me put it this way: he didn't care enough to not kill them. See what Guts tells Grunbeld in volume 26 when it comes to these things.

Is evil in Berserk merely a side of the conflict or can evil be defined as the source of suffering?

The word "evil" as used in Berserk in the original Japanese is pretty specific and can be interpreted in more than one way depending on the context. It doesn't just refer to a moral standpoint but to an actual "power", to the kind of sorcery that transforms humans into monsters.

Offline Wyrm

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2012, 06:31:04 PM »
It doesn't just refer to a moral standpoint but to an actual "power", to the kind of sorcery that transforms humans into monsters.

That makes sense. Nevertheless it seems to be used in both contexts, moral standpoint or "power", throughout the story by different characters.

But how much of their actual humanity do apostles retain? Kentaro Miura showed us some sympathetic traits in a few of the apostles and others, like Zodd, do not care about murder and mayhem (unless fighting a worthy opponent). Even the Snail Count having turned into a sadistic monster still retained, strangely imho, a great love for his daughter. What is your view on this?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2012, 07:18:29 PM »
But how much of their actual humanity do apostles retain?

Define "humanity". Apostles are still human in nature. They are human-based monsters. As opposed for example to ogres or kelpies. But if by humanity you mean kindness and compassion in general, then the answer is very very little, if any at all.

Kentarou Miura showed us some sympathetic traits in a few of the apostles and others, like Zodd, do not care about murder and mayhem (unless fighting a worthy opponent). Even the Snail Count having turned into a sadistic monster still retained, strangely imho, a great love for his daughter. What is your view on this?

They are complex and unique characters who are not stereotypically evil, especially those the story puts forward (meaning they are remarkable). Rochine, the Count, or Zodd are not your typical apostle. And yet, would you say that they are good people? The Count still loved his daughter in a way, but he made her life miserable, kept her in a cage. Rochine murdered countless people and transformed children into her degenerated servants. And Zodd? He's spent hundreds of years only living for battle. Battle as in killing people. He has little if any other interest in life. And these guys are the cream of the crop.

The apostle who so far has seemed the nicest to me is Irvine. But that's only until we get to see more of him.

Offline Skullgrin140

Re: Did you feel for any of the Apostles?
« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2013, 12:50:55 PM »
This is an interesting question that I've had alot to think about. It's difficult to feel anything for any of the apostles when we don't know much about who they are as characters or what the back-stories are (Unless you count Rosine & The Count since there stories are explained clear enough), the recent apostles that joined up with Griffith's new band of the hawk really I don't feel much for them at this moment except they are interesting and loyal characters to Griffith's cause. Irvine in particular I am fascinated by because as a character he really seems like a loner who seems to have alot on his mind.

Rosine really was the only character/apostle I really ever felt truly sorry for just because of her strong because of her strong believe in the elves, her bad childhood with the resulting abuse from her father is what led to her sacrificing her parents and then becoming what she ended up being as well as understanding what was the whole moral of Pikaf's fable.

I would like to feel something for some of the apostle characters that have come and gone throughout Berserk but so far Rosine stands out just for different reasons.