Author Topic: Could Void really be...  (Read 14272 times)

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Offline 01010111

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Could Void really be...
« on: June 24, 2009, 04:26:49 PM »
...and I'm going out on a limb here because it doesn't really correspond with the timeline on sk.net, but regardless, just for kicks....

...Emperor Gaiseric?

The reason I'm bringing this up is really to determine the nature of the sacrificed people in the ruins of Gaiseric's Empire at the bottom of the Tower of Retribution. It doesn't make sense to me, unless either the Skull Knight is actually an Apostle, or if Gaiseric instead became Void?

I'm at work, so I don't have the mangas to check out. Has anyone else elaborated on this?

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 04:47:20 PM »
...and I'm going out on a limb here because it doesn't really correspond with the timeline on sk.net, but regardless, just for kicks....

...Emperor Gaiseric?

The reason I'm bringing this up is really to determine the nature of the sacrificed people in the ruins of Gaiseric's Empire at the bottom of the Tower of Retribution. It doesn't make sense to me, unless either the Skull Knight is actually an Apostle, or if Gaiseric instead became Void?

I'm at work, so I don't have the mangas to check out. Has anyone else elaborated on this?

There are so many threads on this subject it's not even funny. :void:

Offline 01010111

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 05:03:54 PM »
I've seen a whole lot about "Who is Void" and "Who is SK," but unless my searching abilities leave a lot to be desired (VERY WELL MAY BE THE CASE), I haven't read anything concerning the people marked for sacrifice at the bottom of the Tower of Retribution.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 05:14:57 PM »
I've seen a whole lot about "Who is Void" and "Who is SK," but unless my searching abilities leave a lot to be desired (VERY WELL MAY BE THE CASE), I haven't read anything concerning the people marked for sacrifice at the bottom of the Tower of Retribution.

The corpses have been mentioned before, but there isn't a whole lot of talking going on about them because we really don't know anything. For instance, why are there corpses when normally those who are branded are devoured by the Vortex of Souls (or apostles during the Occultation)? We just don't know enough (anything really) about what happened to have a lengthy discussion about it.

Online Walter

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 05:28:25 PM »
The topic has truly been discussed to death since this forum's inception, and beyond.

The conclusion is we don't have enough information to make a coherent explanation of what happened 1,000 years ago. It's extremely likely we haven't been shown all the pieces of the puzzle for it to make sense. There are theories, but they rely on complete guesses to fill the VOID in factual evidence, and even then there are inconsistencies that just don't make sense.

For example, a new member of God Hand is added every 216 years. But if you do the math, the first God Hand wouldn't have been born 1,000 years ago. It would have been 864 years ago. Well, that removes Void from the equasion of the 1,000 years ago event. So, what does that say about the supposed Void/SK relationship?

And even this is just a facet of the questions still unanswered. Four angels? Five angels? why were they all sacrificed but not devoured by apostles or the Vortex of Souls? The list goes on and on of things we cannot answer.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 05:50:28 PM »
Adding to what was already said, here are a few clarifications: The Skull Knight is very likely Gaiseric, and he is neither an apostle, nor a former member of the God Hand.

Offline 01010111

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 06:01:01 PM »
How do we know that SK is not an Apostle?

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 06:02:55 PM »
How do we know that SK is not an Apostle?

Why would an apostle hunt other apostles and oppose the God Hand? Ganishka was the exception to the rule, and the only apostles he ever destroyed were opposing him on behalf of Griffith.

Online Walter

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 06:03:38 PM »
How do we know that SK is not an Apostle?
Many reasons. Here are a handful. SK said he fights against evil. Zodd said he's fought against their kind for 1,000 years. Apostles are evil beings that make Guts' and Casca's brand bleed. Puck said he thought he sensed something elven about SK in vol 18. And many, many more.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 06:29:19 PM »
How do we know that SK is not an Apostle?

There's overwhelming evidence that it isn't the case, but what makes you think he could be one in the first place? I mean he really doesn't look or act like one at all.

Offline Henry Spencer

Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 10:10:22 PM »
I reckon he's been to Elfhelm (again, another parallel with Guts), hence all the powers.

Offline 01010111

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 12:31:16 PM »
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what makes you think he could be one in the first place? I mean he really doesn't look or act like one at all.
Like I said earlier, I was just trying to make sense of all of those branded corpses. We don't really know what the Skull Knight looks like aside from his armor, and Apostles act however they want to act.
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Many reasons. Here are a handful. SK said he fights against evil. Zodd said he's fought against their kind for 1,000 years. Apostles are evil beings that make Guts' and Casca's brand bleed. Puck said he thought he sensed something elven about SK in vol 18. And many, many more.
I think it's really pointless to view anyone in Berserk as good or evil, the store is definitely more complex than that. I will say that the lack of response from the Brand is pretty conclusive, but magic can be used to diminish the effect. Puck said that he sensed something elven about SK, but there's no conclusive evidence to say that he's elven.
I just think that you can't totally write it off.

Online Walter

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 03:23:48 PM »
I think it's really pointless to view anyone in Berserk as good or evil, the store is definitely more complex than that.
Actually, evil is a defined concept in Berserk. The God Hand and ceremonies involved with them are constantly referenced as EVIL in the manga. During the apostle transformation process, it allows EVIL to surge into  your heart.

Allow me to quote Aaz who just explained this whole concept in another thread recently:

Not in Berserk, a fiction where good and evil are objective, absolute notions. When the author says the God Hand is evil, it is evil. It's not subject to personal interpretation and it's not necessarily a consequence of one's own actions either. The Demon Child was born evil because it was tainted by Femto. An innocent being, yet born inherently evil. You're making the common mistake of trying to apply moral relativism to a fictional story where "evil" is a clearly identified supernatural force.
So ... yeah.

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Puck said that he sensed something elven about SK, but there's no conclusive evidence to say that he's elven.
Hahahaha, no one said SK is an elf.  :ganishka: But if Puck senses something elven, the possibility of him actually being an apostle all along is pretty ridiculously low.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 05:08:00 PM »
Like I said earlier, I was just trying to make sense of all of those branded corpses.

No problem, you're not the first to fail at it.

We don't really know what the Skull Knight looks like aside from his armor

He is a hollow armor...

I think it's really pointless to view anyone in Berserk as good or evil, the store is definitely more complex than that.

Well you clearly don't understand much of the story then. Apostles are evil, period.

I will say that the lack of response from the Brand is pretty conclusive, but magic can be used to diminish the effect.

You don't know what you're talking about. Magic can be used, eh? And what magic was used exactly? And apostles have always clearly identified him as completely different from themselves as a lot anyway.

I just think that you can't totally write it off.

Well you're wrong. SK definitely isn't an apostle, and anyone with an ounce of common sense in them can realize it.

Offline 01010111

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 05:33:31 PM »
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He is a hollow armor...
Not questioning your integrity, just curious where you got that? I'd just like to know more  :badbone:
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Well you clearly don't understand much of the story then. Apostles are evil, period.
Maybe I'm just looking into things too deeply, but many of the apostles are pushed into their positions via circumstance. For instance, I never found the Egg Apostle to be inherently evil, also, I've never thought of Guts as completely good. Now I am probably in the dark a bit because I've never read the episode when Griffith meets God (or if I remember; the Idea of Evil), I'm just reading the DH releases.
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You don't know what you're talking about. Magic can be used, eh? And what magic was used exactly?
I'm referring specifically to the seals drawn over Guts and Casca's brands.
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Well you're wrong. SK definitely isn't an apostle, and anyone with an ounce of common sense in them can realize it.
I understand that common sense would lead you to believe otherwise, but there have been many stanger plot twists in literary history.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 05:58:40 PM »
Not questioning your integrity, just curious where you got that? I'd just like to know more  :badbone:

Well from several things, really. For example, when he swallows beherits, the sound effect used is that of an object hitting a metallic surface (note that this extends to the Dreamcast game, for which Miura wrote the scenario among other things). As if it fell into a hollow armor. Then there's the fact his eyes are empty glowing sockets. Or that he can control his skull-shaped helmet as if it were his actual skull (e.g. opening its mouth to slide his sword down into it, for example). Absorbing beherits and melting them inside himself, only to pull the resulting mass whenever he needs it counts too. Those are subtle elements but once you've picked them up, it's pretty obvious.

Maybe I'm just looking into things too deeply, but many of the apostles are pushed into their positions via circumstance.

Of course. They're all manipulated into it by the Idea of Evil. But that doesn't mean they aren't evil. When they become apostles, their soul is literally empowered by evil. That's how it's described to us in the story. So yeah, they're evil. It's just like I said in the post Walter quoted.

I've never thought of Guts as completely good.

He's a good man at heart, but he's not a saint, that's for sure.

Now I am probably in the dark a bit because I've never read the episode when Griffith meets God (or if I remember; the Idea of Evil), I'm just reading the DH releases.

No, I don't think that episode is really necessary for someone to understand what we're discussing. Besides, it was removed from the story, so it isn't canon. If you want a transcript of what's being said in it though, click here.

Dark Horse's translations sometimes leave to be desired though, but there's not much you can do about that (well, except reading our comments and rectifications I guess).

I'm referring specifically to the seals drawn over Guts and Casca's brands.

I know. :slan: And actually, it's a talisman in the form of a necklace that protects Casca nowadays. But anyway, Guts has met SK many times before he met Flora and Schierke, and his brand never bled, and he always knew that he wasn't an apostle. A spiritual being, something he could sense with the brand, but not something evil. Guts felt Flora through his brand in the same way. Flora, the good witch, who was a very close friend to SK, and helped Guts and his friends because he asked her to.

Anyway, do you truly believe that Guts, who instantly knew that Daiba was related to an apostle (Ganishka) when he first met him, wouldn't notice if SK were an apostle? That's really not thinking much of him. Even putting aside the fact he's met him with his brand unprotected, you should realize that the seal Schierke draws over it doesn't prevent him from sensing evil when it is nearby. What it does is prevent evil creatures from locating him (as otherwise the brand is to them like a beacon in the darkness). He's perfectly able to sense evil when his brand is protected by the seal, as shown to us times and times again since he's teamed up with Schierke (on the beach in episode 239 for example).

I understand that common sense would lead you to believe otherwise, but there have been many stanger plot twists in literary history.

Well I'm not just calling common sense on it. There really IS overwhelming evidence. For example, even Puck's remark in volume 18 about SK's elfin aura that you discarded is pretty much a definitive proof of it. It means SK is related to elves in some manner (here's a guess: his armor was created by elves), and that's just not possible of an apostle. Anyway, to be honest I think this discussion has gone on for far too long. SK isn't an apostle.

Offline 01010111

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 06:12:18 PM »
It is ironic that I'm arguing in another thread how I don't care for literary devices that are brought into a story to justify moving on to the next point in the story, but I'm arguing here that Miura could bring some in later to explain SK. But thanks for shedding light on things!

Offline skullnights_pants

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 11:39:19 PM »
I always assumed the skull wa shis actual head, are you saying its part of his armour?

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 11:46:19 PM »
I always assumed the skull wa shis actual head, are you saying its part of his armour?

I'm no expert on Skull Knight, but as far as we know, he is all armor.

Online Walter

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2009, 12:21:25 AM »
I always assumed the skull wa shis actual head, are you saying its part of his armour?
It's very clearly an armor. Look at it carefully. It even has something that resembles a screw, or a hinge near where the ears would normally be -- as if it lifts UP.  :isidro:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2009, 06:38:36 AM »
I always assumed the skull wa shis actual head, are you saying its part of his armour?

Yes, it's a helmet. If you look at it closely you can't miss it.

Offline slan69

Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2009, 06:47:18 AM »
Yes, it's a helmet. If you look at it closely you can't miss it.

I wonder what he looks like if that helmet were to come off  :SK:
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Love, hate, pain, pleasure, life, death. Everything is there… This is human... This is demonic!

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Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2009, 10:22:22 AM »
I wonder what he looks like if that helmet were to come off  :SK:

I'm going to go with, nothing. There is nothing behind that armor.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2009, 10:54:51 AM »
I'm going to go with, nothing. There is nothing behind that armor.

Well, there could be something, but something spiritual and not corporeal. Think of the souls Griffith summoned in volume 23 for example.

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Could Void really be...
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 11:33:58 AM »
Well, there could be something, but something spiritual and not corporeal. Think of the souls Griffith summoned in volume 23 for example.

Oh. I was taking her question more as, "is there something physically there" ie a skeleton behind his armor. It's more then likely that it's the spiritual remnants, which would be really cool in my opinion.