Author Topic: Episode 315  (Read 67644 times)

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2010, 03:36:45 AM »
The world of Berserk has been turned on its head.  Strange creatures straight out of Man's fantasies and nightmares now walk the earth.  Guts and crew have sailed into a brand new oceanic world that we could never even dream of only a short time ago.  A world of naval battles and pirates.  A world of merrows.  A world where an army of gargantuan, evil sea monsters, potentially dwarfing anything we’ve seen to date, are trying to kill Guts and crew while the threat of an imprisoned, evil GOD, the likes of which we’ve never seen before, being unleashed upon the world looms overhead.  At the same time, Guts may or may not be lost to his armor as the forest of monsters converge upon him. . . And how do people respond to these earthshaking events? “Yeah yeah yeah, whatever, when are they getting to Elfhelm again?”  :ganishka:
You haven't been here very long, have you?  :badbone:  The same people that whine about Elfhelm typically have been following the series for a handful of years. Some of us here have been waiting on it for 8 years.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2010, 08:44:40 AM »
I just hope we don't have to wait until about volume 50 for the group to finally reach Skellig.

Don't be ridiculous.

And, this is just me being greedy, but I hope the story focuses on Guts for a good while.  With all of Miura's breaks making it feel longer, his tale seemed to focused on Griffith for a long time.  I think that Guts needs a lot of time in the spotlight to make up for lost time.

Well he's getting that time already. One of the reasons we're seeing him fight right now is because we haven't seen it in 3 years. Just kick back and enjoy. And beyond that, I think we won't have much exposure to Midland while the group is in Elfhelm, making the changes the mainland will have undergone while they were away all the more stupefying once they go back.

As awesome as it is to see Guts tearing it up as the beast again, I feel that this happened to quickly.  With the beast saying he was going to lie in wait until the time was right, I expected that when Guts needed the power of the armor he'd don the batman look up until the point when shit really hits the fan and the beats makes violently dramatic return.  All the same I'm still enjoying this...just slightly bummed because it feels somewhat rushed with him unleashing the beast again.

Man you guys are really giving me a hard time with this Beast of Darkness business. If you look at episode 290 again you'll see that the Beast itself calls the accidental, makeshift solution Schierke came up with to keep Guts conscious while using the armor in Vritannis a one-time thing. Not that it really needed confirmation, mind you. Guts can't just choose to use the armor while retaining control without preparation. And by the same token he's not "unleashing the Beast" (who's almost really on a leash now) here as far as we can see. It has likened Guts' companions to the chains binding it, and they are still there. But if they die... then it would swallow Guts whole. In short, Guts' use of the armor doesn't negate what was said in episode 290.

Although as much as I would LOVE to see Guts and Co. reach Skellig.. I get the feeling that after finishing off the Sea God, Miura will most assuredly throw the ball over to Griffith and his new kingdom to explain things over there. Which is nice too.. but I'm more interested in seeing Casca back to normal (and Guts and Co. reaction), than the events happening in Midland. So Elfhelm seems like a very long ways away :(

Don't fool yourself, Elfhelm isn't a distant prospect. We just came out of the longest focus on Griffith we ever had, and it was for a good reason: the merging of the worlds. An unprecedented event. Even if we get a glimpse of the life in Falconia, it's going to be just that: a glimpse. One episode, maybe just a half-episode. And it's not sure we'll even get one so soon, since chronologically not much time has elapsed yet.

A world where an army of gargantuan, evil sea monsters, potentially dwarfing anything we’ve seen to date

I'm going to go ahead and say it's not dwarfing Ganishka. :iva:

The same people that whine about Elfhelm typically have been following the series for a handful of years.

He has a point though, the current events are happening for a reason and they ought to be paid attention to. Imagine someone who would have "just" been waiting for Elfhelm since volume 22.

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2010, 09:09:29 AM »
Man you guys are really giving me a hard time with this Beast of Darkness business. If you look at episode 290 again you'll see that the Beast itself calls the accidental, makeshift solution Schierke came up with to keep Guts conscious while using the armor in Vritannis a one-time thing. Not that it really needed confirmation, mind you.

Yeah, it was never like it became automatic, at the very least it was a unique circumstance they'd have to make an effort to recreate. Though, I wouldn't be shocked to see them do that and to try to make it the norm, especially if this turns out worse than just bad for Guts' health.

And by the same token he's not "unleashing the Beast" (who's really on a leash now) here as far as we can see. It has likened Guts' companions to the chains binding it, and they are still there. But if they die... then it would swallow Guts whole. In short, Guts' use of the armor doesn't negate what happened in episode 290.

There seems to be general confusion as to the literal role of the Beast as it relates to Guts' psyche and its figurative role as a character and literary device. Guts and the Beast are only separate in terms of the Beast's role as literary device, in order to separate some of Guts' more despicable thoughts and actions from his own character, and to put him demonstrably at odds with himself, even make him sympathetic while at the same time showing him capable of being a monster. It's not like the Beast is really some parasitic foreign body gaining strength inside him, it's just that way in his mind, and therefore that of the reader.

Hmmm, I don't know if that particular description will make it less or more confusing. =)

Imagine someone who would have "just" been waiting for Elfhelm since volume 22.

Imagine? That's sadly probably over half the readership! :ganishka:

Offline CowTip

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2010, 11:14:56 AM »
To be fair, if I went back in time to Episode 286 and told myself that three years later we'd still be more or less at sea, I'd probably call myself crazy. I'm not in a huge rush to get there, but I honestly can't help but wonder how much longer it'll be before Guts and co make it there. For all we know, this whole sea god thing could tie in somehow rather than just being a pit stop/introducing the characters to this brave new world.

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2010, 11:36:31 AM »
Yeah, it was never like it became automatic, at the very least it was a unique circumstance they'd have to make an effort to recreate. Though, I wouldn't be shocked to see them do that and to try to make it the norm, especially if this turns out worse than just bad for Guts' health.

I'd like to see Farnese try to do it in a case of emergency (e.g. while Schierke's incapacitated or busy with a spell). It's such a specific process though...

Hmmm, I don't know if that particular description will make it less or more confusing. =)

Sounds clear enough to me! :beast:

Imagine? That's sadly probably over half the readership!

:judo:

That emoticon was never more appropriate.

For all we know, this whole sea god thing could tie in somehow rather than just being a pit stop/introducing the characters to this brave new world.

Well there's definitely more to it than just a "pit stop", that's a given.

Offline everymonday

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2010, 01:46:07 PM »
I wonder why Miura used snail-theme for the transformed ship? They are not sea creatures, are they? I think they like marshes and sandy shores as enviroment.

As for the episode itself - it is sehr gut.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2010, 01:53:44 PM »
I wonder why Miura used snail-theme for the transformed ship? They are not sea creatures, are they? I think they like marshes and sandy shores as enviroment.

There are many types of gastropods that live in the sea.

Offline Truder

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2010, 02:28:52 PM »
There are many types of gastropods that live in the sea.
:troll:

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Episode 315
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2010, 03:16:34 PM »
Quote
Man you guys are really giving me a hard time with this Beast of Darkness business. If you look at episode 290 again you'll see that the Beast itself calls the accidental, makeshift solution Schierke came up with to keep Guts conscious while using the armor in Vritannis a one-time thing. Not that it really needed confirmation, mind you. Guts can't just choose to use the armor while retaining control without preparation. And by the same token he's not "unleashing the Beast" (who's almost really on a leash now) here as far as we can see. It has likened Guts' companions to the chains binding it, and they are still there. But if they die... then it would swallow Guts whole. In short, Guts' use of the armor doesn't negate what was said in episode 290.

That is simply how you view the situation.  I view it differently.

Your post clearly shows that you are paying attention to the Beast's wording.  I'm paying attention to not just his wording, but the art that accompanies it.  Symbolism and all that.  While yes, I agree that the Beast is a personification and representation of Guts' black berserker rage, his urge to completely let go and push on while slaughtering everything in and everyone in his path to his goal.  We still see while the beast is talking, he is skulking off into the darkness (darkness of Guts' subconscious?) and that too me shows the Beast, Guts violent darkness, willingly surpressing itself.

Now that to me is a big deal, as before Guts even got the armor, he was a berserker.  But he wasn't a reckless (debatable I know) kill everything around him kind of berserker.  He had restraint, and to a degree some form of self control.  You never saw Guts get so caught up in the moment that he threatened his own comrades with his wild nature during his time with the Hawks.  A better example when he became a more vicious character after the Eclipse, he stopped himself from killing Jill when he was slaughtering the burning children, he stopped himself from hurting Isidro when madness gripped him after Casca was taken by the Holy Iron Chain Knights, and he stopped himself from both cutting down and strangling Casca while he was trying to protect her from the evil spirits attracted by the brand.

Along comes the armor, and the first time he loses himself into the armor we only see that he is much more savage and animalistic in his fighting style, as he pulled out of that state before his attention is ever on his comrades.  But the beach incident shows that when he is in that form his comrades are in grave danger when he allows his beast, his berserker rage to take hold of him.  And that's the effect of the armor, augmenting his animosity like that, taking away his ability to decipher friend from foe like he could with out.  Just allowing him to become of beast on the battlefield where noone is safe.

So yeah, the Beast saying what he said, and then vanishing into the shadows was a pretty big point for me with Guts current situation.  After a little event like that it just cheapens the effect of Guts allowing the armor to take hold of him so soon.  While it may have been 3 years for us in terms of the reader, for the story it seems too soon.  That is my view on the whole thing.  That is my reasoning.

I'm not some blind Berserk fanboy who eats up every little thing that Miura does with the story.  This is probably the first thing that he's done that has disappointed me, the reader, with.  I know there are a lot of people who flat out hate all the magic and mystical monsters that started appearing after Griffith's return to flesh.  That stuff never bothered me.  But Guts giving into the armor like this so soon is just a low point for me.

Like I said, my view.  It's different from yours.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2010, 03:57:05 PM »
But Guts giving into the armor like this so soon is just a low point for me.

Part of Guts' character, though, is that he's not amazingly self-aware.  He didn't realise what the Hawks were to him until he up and left them thinking it was what he needed to do.  That wasn't a failing of the story.  I don't think it's a failing of the story for him to misjudge his relationship to the armor and the beast, either.

Offline Marik

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2010, 04:15:55 PM »
Like I said, my view.  It's different from yours.

I like your reasoning, but I think that you are missing something.

First of all, Guts had clearly admitted to himself(in vol 24) that, without someone(the chains) that takes
care of Casca he would have surely killed her.
So it's not like the armor plays a pivotal role in the whole slaughter. All started to a Guts need to be helped by someone. For the first time he was expecting something from someone.
That being said the Beast tells to Guts that somehow it's not that bad to have some friends(or to have those chains) and I read that as: I won't care if they attempt to take you back from my control. But soon or later..if they'll die I'll swallow you.(that's always Guts as we know).

So the fact that Guts allowed to the armor to take the control over him doesn't mean it's a low point, because the Beast was dangerous even before.

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Episode 315
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2010, 04:28:49 PM »
I know the beast was pretty much saying "the closer you get to your friends the greater your suffering will be when they are gone." Pretty much like how he felt with what happened during the Eclipse that darkened even more than he already was in the first place.  A loss of this group would pretty much be putting Guts as wild savage as the armor makes him only all the time.  And I do get that.  I'm not over looking that.  I took the whole scene, the beast's words, and his disappearing into the shadows of "I'll lie in wait until the time is right." That time being in a spot where Guts knows hopelessness and those around him are suffering to the point of likely meeting death.  This is just Guts and the group being faced with overwhelming numbers, not out of the norm for them.  Guts hacked a few up and then gave into his armor.  He didn't even try to avoid using it.  The other clowns of the group didn't bother putting any assistance up to even see if this is truely that desperate situation that I spoke of where Gut would need to lose himself to his beast.  And that's why I'm disappointed by how this is turning out.  It seems too soon.

Not only that but he's not thinking.  Schierke is not around and he's foolishly using the armor with no idea how he's going to be pulled back.  He's putting his group in a more dangerous situation with him then ever before.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2010, 06:30:27 PM »
That is simply how you view the situation.  I view it differently.

That's an euphemism for the fact you view it incorrectly.

Your post clearly shows that you are paying attention to the Beast's wording.  I'm paying attention to not just his wording, but the art that accompanies it.  Symbolism and all that.

Hahaha yes, dwarfkicker, please do tell me what I've missed in Berserk. :ganishka:

While yes, I agree that the Beast is a personification and representation of Guts' black berserker rage

Cute simplification. It's too bad when you have to simplify something to understand it though. The Beast of Darkness can't be reduced to just being "his berserker rage" (black or otherwise). It runs a lot deeper and is more subtle than that, as I've explained countless times before.

We still see while the beast is talking, he is skulking off into the darkness (darkness of Guts' subconscious?) and that too me shows the Beast, Guts violent darkness, willingly surpressing itself.

I'm sorry, did you not understand my post? What has that got to do with what I said? And on a side note, your half-assed summary of what's happened so far brings nothing to the discussion so I have no idea why you wrote it in the first place. I'd pick it apart if this post wasn't already getting too long.

And that's the effect of the armor, augmenting his animosity like that, taking away his ability to decipher friend from foe like he could with out.  Just allowing him to become of beast on the battlefield where noone is safe.

I'm not sure what "allowing him to become of beast" is supposed to mean, but the effects of the armor are far more extensive than merely augmenting his animosity. It's a magical item, not roid rage. Its Od acts on his astral self. I've explained this in details so many times before, please just dig up an old post.

So yeah, the Beast saying what he said, and then vanishing into the shadows was a pretty big point for me with Guts current situation.  After a little event like that it just cheapens the effect of Guts allowing the armor to take hold of him so soon.  While it may have been 3 years for us in terms of the reader, for the story it seems too soon.  That is my view on the whole thing.  That is my reasoning.

Well it looks like you missed the whole point of the Beast of Darkness now being chained, restrained, and the chains being Guts' feelings toward his companions. You know, and how it clearly tells Guts that when those chains will be broken (after his companions die or after their bond to him is severed), it will be released and will completely overwhelm him. That's what that episode is about. Do you get it now or do I need to post the pictures to help you? :schierke:

I'm not some blind Berserk fanboy who eats up every little thing that Miura does with the story.

No, you're a smug jackass who doesn't know what he's talking about. This really has nothing to do with eating up everything Miura does or whatever. You're just misunderstanding what's happening.

First of all, Guts had clearly admitted to himself(in vol 24) that, without someone(the chains) that takes care of Casca he would have surely killed her.

No, he doesn't plainly state that "he would have surely killed her."

That being said the Beast tells to Guts that somehow it's not that bad to have some friends(or to have those chains) and I read that as: I won't care if they attempt to take you back from my control.

Nah, it's not like that. What it means is that it's good for Guts to rely on such a thin thread in order to keep his sanity. Basically the Beast is saying that those comrades are the only thing that keeps him from going mad, and that simply by staying at his side they're in permanent danger of dying. So it's quietly waiting for the right time, and once they're gone it will be free to do whatever it wants. It's a pretty simple metaphor.

I took the whole scene, the beast's words, and his disappearing into the shadows of "I'll lie in wait until the time is right."

Until the time is right to completely overwhelm Guts and go get his revenge against Griffith. You know, instead of going to Elfhelm, focusing on Casca's welfare and trying to remain a sane human being. That's what the Beast of Darkness meant. It's not hard to get since it's plainly stated and illustrated.

That time being in a spot where Guts knows hopelessness and those around him are suffering to the point of likely meeting death.

No, that time being when they die. Then the chains holding it back would be broken forever. You need to pay more attention.

This is just Guts and the group being faced with overwhelming numbers, not out of the norm for them.  Guts hacked a few up and then gave into his armor.  He didn't even try to avoid using it.

Maybe you should wait to see the whole episode before commenting on what's happening here. And honestly, the situation looks more than a bit desperate at the moment. They're surrounded with giant monsters and as strong as Guts is, we were shown that fighting against a few sea cucumbers at once was already straining his abilities. Which is perfectly normal, I mean he can't be everywhere at once and can only kill so many colossal monsters in a row before taking a breath. In fact nothing says he'll be able to handle all those slugs by himself, even with the armor...

if this is truely that desperate situation that I spoke of [...] It seems too soon.

It's not the situation the Beast of Darkness mentioned in episode 290. That's where your confusion stems from.

In short: the Beast of Darkness hasn't really been unleashed here, it's still chained. And from what we've seen so far, it's still quietly waiting in the darkness (although, once again, that might change soon). That doesn't mean Guts can't use the Berserk's armor. The armor works the same on everybody, remember. It's designed that way. If Serpico used it he would lose himself in battle as well.

Anyway, to be frank, I don't expect to ever see Guts' friends all die and him going mad with grief. It's what the Beast desires, but it's not in Guts' best interest. Not even when it comes to getting his revenge, since attacking mindlessly would just get him killed.

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2010, 09:35:47 PM »
Dogpile! :guts: :beast:

I'm not some blind Berserk fanboy who eats up every little thing that Miura does with the story.  This is probably the first thing that he's done that has disappointed me, the reader, with.  I know there are a lot of people who flat out hate all the magic and mystical monsters that started appearing after Griffith's return to flesh.  That stuff never bothered me.  But Guts giving into the armor like this so soon is just a low point for me.

Far be it for me to judge, but reading this, I couldn't help but notice the fact that not only are you jumping to these conclusions about this event out of any larger context, but you haven't even seen the episode yet! So, you are indeed being a blind fanboy, it's just that you've taken to blind complaining. This is exactly why...


So, if you haven't been disappointed by Miura yet, perhaps you should give him the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt until you actually, ya know, see the episode, let alone how it fits into the big picture. =)

Offline dwarfkicker

Re: Episode 315
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2010, 11:54:25 PM »
Quote
No, you're a smug jackass who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sticks and stones my friend.  But let's try to stay civil here.  My fanboy comment wasn't directed at anyone, just a generalization of someone (in this case anyone) who thinks every detail about this story, or any piece of work (anime, games, movies, books, comics, tv shows, etc.) is pure gold incapable of being tarnished.

Quote
I'm not sure what "allowing him to become of beast" is supposed to mean, but the effects of the armor are far more extensive than merely augmenting his animosity. It's a magical item, not roid rage. Its Od acts on his astral self. I've explained this in details so many times before, please just dig up an old post.

That was supposed to read "allowing him to become a beast." Careless typo that I overlooked.  Putting it simply, yeah, it augments his animosity.  Magical roid rage if you will  :iva: (now I'm just poking fun at you a little).  I'm not talking about the Od or astral aspects here.  I'm talking about the result of the armor taking complete hold of him, what's going on on the outside.  When he is in beast mode (what is this, transformers?) he is more savage and more animal like in his fighting style then he ever is without the armor being on him.  I'm not wrong in saying it augments his animosity, his hatred and rage, and transforming him literally into a wild beast on the battlefield that's incapable of deciphering friend from foe without some kind of outside interference.

Quote
In short: the Beast of Darkness hasn't really been unleashed here, it's still chained. And from what we've seen so far, it's still quietly waiting in the darkness

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (as you were trying to do in your last post), but isn't every time the armor takes hold of Guts representing the Beast of Darkness being unleashed?  Guts can no longer tell friend from foe, and attacks all in his path.  Only when we can actually see Guts beneath the armor is he utilizing the armor's power without the beast being unleashed.  And with that being the case then it would mean that the beast isn't quite so chained as initially thought or stated, thus my gripe with what has been shown.

I know Guts has even said something along the lines of drawing out the power of the armor enough to numb the pain, but not enough for it (his beast) to come out.  So he's aware of some kind of limit he can use the armor to without it overtaking him.  And that's where my initial statement about him being reckless with it, unleashing the armor without someone to pull him back, as he has told Schierke that she can just pull him back anytime he uses it, too which she more or less said it's not that simple.

Quote
Dogpile! :guts: :beast:

I warn you, it takes a lot to wear me down  :daiba: :guts:

Quote
So, if you haven't been disappointed by Miura yet, perhaps you should give him the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt until you actually, ya know, see the episode, let alone how it fits into the big picture. =)

I guess part of my problem is the pacing I guess.  It just seems that Guts doesn't rely on his own abilities so much anymore and is too willing to allow himself to be lost to the power of the armor.  Drastic times calling for drastic measures and all that.  And if there's a good reason that Guts is unleashing the beast here then I'll happily stand corrected  :guts: And I know Guts hasn't had any time to attempt to control or master the armor and it's effects on him, what with always getting a short breather from one battle only to be thrust into another.  And I'm ok with the dangers of the armor being very present because of that.  It's just that scene with the chained beast.  It's how I viewed it.  If that weren't ever touched on I would still have no issue here.  But because that scene did happen, with how I took it, that scene now feels cheapened, making it seem like Miura shrugged his shoulders at it in order to unleash Guts for us because it's been 3 years for the reader (us) since we got to witness this.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:20:05 AM by dwarfkicker »

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2010, 01:07:55 AM »
I warn you, it takes a lot to wear me down  :daiba: :guts:

I'm not really piling on, it's just that nobody is above the weekly readers image macro! :guts:

Anyway, on Guts and the armor in general, I've joked before how Guts is on steroids or cheating, that he deserves an asterisk on his kill count, etc. But that was all it was, jokes, athough it sounds like people really sort of see it that way, like Guts is cheaping out or even being a hypocrite, which I don't think is fair. It's a slippery slope, but the armor isn't exactly doing the work for Guts or giving him some power that doesn't come from within him, it's just maximizing his human ability, and at an extreme cost, far beyond what he's had to pay before after combat (my only complaint would be if that particular aspect did not continually progress). There's a better way to view the armor and how/why Guts is using it...

I guess part of my problem is the pacing I guess.  It just seems that Guts doesn't rely on his own abilities so much anymore and is too willing to allow himself to be lost to the power of the armor.  Drastic times calling for drastic measures and all that.  And if there's a good reason that Guts is unleashing the beast here then I'll happily stand corrected  :guts:

I'm not sure what that has to do with pacing (you find it sudden?), but I will say that if Guts has totally given in to the armor, it's because the stakes have simply been raised in the world since Griffith's incarnation, and never more so than now. Whereas Guts could slaughter groups like the ghosts, zombies, and Apostle-spawn he faced before, he's now regularly up against hordes of monsters whose strength are on par with Apostles themselves, he's in poor health, and surviving isn't good enough, he's got to protect everyone as well. When he uses the armor, it's because the situation is already proven impossible without it.

Let's do a quick rundown, Guts couldn't beat a single Makara without the armor at first, or at least he couldn't do it and protect his friends, and when he finally does find a way to win without it, he then fights hordes of Daka, is left exhausted, and is then confronted by no less than five Makara at once. We know Guts doesn't exactly lack confidence, but clearly the situation was beyond even him at that point, if he didn't use it, all his friends, if not himself, would have been slaughtered. In this current scenario, Guts has already been stretched paper-thin dealing with the sea cucumbers, only to be confronted by the ghost ship, more sea cucumbers and now slugs as far as the eye can see.

So, Guts isn't just giving in or taking some easy way out, he has no choice. It isn't just a matter of fighting to win for himself, even if he could struggle and find a way to survive as he's done before, his friends and loved ones would surely die. In the two previous situations, and I'm guessing this one, the use of the armor has been precipitated not by his desire just to win and live, but to protect his family. It's not a lack of Guts relying on his own abilities, just the burden he's taking on has never been so great, including the cost to himself. Guts is literally allowing himself and his humanity to slowly die in order to protect the people he cares about, and while that's probably not news to anyone, I think it's important to keep that altruistic nature of the armor's use in mind.

And I know Guts hasn't had any time to attempt to control or master the armor and it's effects on him, what with always getting a short breather from one battle only to be thrust into another.  And I'm ok with the dangers of the armor being very present because of that.  It's just that scene with the chained beast.  It's how I viewed it.  If that weren't ever touched on I would still have no issue here.  But because that scene did happen, with how I took it, that scene now feels cheapened, making it seem like Miura shrugged his shoulders at it in order to unleash Guts for us because it's been 3 years for the reader (us) since we got to witness this.

Well, I think that's an unfair way to look at it. As the old saying goes, feel free to question one's judgment, but don't question their motives. I can't even speculate as to how this relates to the earlier scene with the chained Beast because I haven't even seen this episode yet. So, what should I do, assume the worst? I don't see cause for that, even from the previews we can see that Miura is at least acknowledging the issue. I mean, even after we read this episode, how can we really know until we see the aftermath?

Offline Gorgie

Re: Episode 315
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2010, 02:53:24 AM »
I tend to avoid the ego-driven cock fest that permeates many discussions, because they don't interest me.  If literary interpretation were as clearly cut as some here pretend it to be, reading would lose much of its charm.  That said, you really rocked that post, Griffith / グリフィス。 おてめでとう!  I, too, have noticed that people have a hard time articulating--and for some even noticing--that the armor has been used more as a last ditch effort to save his new band than any other single reason.  Literary interpretation leaves many answers open, at least to a degree, but some things are pretty clearly settled.  Hopefully more people now understand why the armor motivation falls into the latter category.

Nothing to add, really...except maybe a half-hearted "Elfhelm:  are we there yet?" catcall.
 :troll:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2010, 12:17:39 PM »
Sticks and stones my friend.  But let's try to stay civil here.  My fanboy comment wasn't directed at anyone, just a generalization of someone (in this case anyone) who thinks every detail about this story, or any piece of work (anime, games, movies, books, comics, tv shows, etc.) is pure gold incapable of being tarnished.

You stay civil first, buddy, towards anyone and everyone, else you're going to get called on it. Simple.

Putting it simply, yeah, it augments his animosity.  Magical roid rage if you will  :iva: (now I'm just poking fun at you a little).  I'm not talking about the Od or astral aspects here.  I'm talking about the result of the armor taking complete hold of him, what's going on on the outside.

It doesn't just augment his animosity, putting it simply or not. It makes his pain and fear disappear, it confuses him with hatred and distorts his perception of the world, it slowly destroys his senses and without Flora's talisman it would have shattered his mind. And it goes way beyond making him more aggressive anyway: he loses all sense of self-preservation and just rushes into danger mindlessly, straining his body beyond its limits in the process. Poke fun all you want but it just sounds like you don't get it.

When he is in beast mode (what is this, transformers?)

Yeah it's good to laugh at yourself but it'd be even better not to use confusing terms in the first place.

I'm not wrong in saying it augments his animosity, his hatred and rage, and transforming him literally into a wild beast on the battlefield that's incapable of deciphering friend from foe without some kind of outside interference.

It's wrong to say: "that's the effect of the armor, augmenting his animosity." The effects of the armor are multiple and they certainly can't be accurately summarized by saying it makes him angrier than usual. That's a pretty ridiculous notion, actually.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (as you were trying to do in your last post)

Trying? I did correct you. I even pointed you to the parts you were misunderstanding.

isn't every time the armor takes hold of Guts representing the Beast of Darkness being unleashed?

First off, you're not wording this correctly. It's the other way around. The Berserk's armor being activated does not represent the Beast of Darkness being unleashed, it's the Beast of Darkness being unleashed that represents what happens inside Guts' mind when the Berserk's armor is activated. That distinction is important.

You've been saying you understand that the Beast of Darkness personifies Guts' darker emotions (his desire for revenge, his hatred for Griffith, the God Hand and all apostles but also his fear of these evil and implacable forces, his fear of getting attached to people again, etc.), but you need to start applying this supposed understanding to the way you view the story.

Secondly, we saw the Beast of Darkness in chains in episode 290. Those chains weren't there before. We haven't seen him use the Berserk's armor since, so that's what we should be looking forward to here. Previously, everytime Guts used the armor he was completely swept up by the Beast, incapable of resisting the armor's subversive influence on his mind. That's what the imagery with the Beast of Darkness meant. Basically the armor was functioning as intended, and Guts was particularly susceptible to its (side-)effects.

Now, with his chances to come across Griffith practically nullified until they return to the mainland and his evergrowing relationship to his friends giving his life a new meaning, it looks like he has finally managed to rein in this side of himself a little bit. What this means isn't completely clear yet, but it could be a prelude to him harnessing those emotions in order to better control himself while using the Berserk's armor. We're about to see whether that exercise will be met with success or not.

Only when we can actually see Guts beneath the armor is he utilizing the armor's power without the beast being unleashed.

I can't agree with the way you're putting this. What happened at that time was that Schierke neutralized the Berserk's armor's influence on Guts' mind by clearing the dark substance it produces from his face. This is a good example of why people should be careful to differentiate the Beast of Darkness from the Berserk's armor. Schierke directly interfered with the way the armor works but had no impact at all on Guts' subconscious. She didn't oppose the Beast of Darkness in his psyche, she just prevented the armor from clouding Guts' mind and perception. That's a pretty big difference.

Anyway, what she did was the most straightforward and efficient way for Guts to use the armor while staying conscious, but it's obviously not a reliable solution, and not something Guts can do by himself. For it to become a permanent workaround they'd have to modify the armor in a way, like I said earlier in the thread.

I know Guts has even said something along the lines of drawing out the power of the armor enough to numb the pain, but not enough for it (his beast) to come out.

No, he said that wearing the armor without it being active doesn't numb the pain as much as when he's fighting, but that it still helps him for travelling while being wounded. It's in episode 236, if you want to check it out. It's important to accurately remember what you reference in order to avoid confusion.

And that's where my initial statement about him being reckless with it, unleashing the armor without someone to pull him back, as he has told Schierke that she can just pull him back anytime he uses it, too which she more or less said it's not that simple.

What? Part of your sentence is missing.

I guess part of my problem is the pacing I guess.  It just seems that Guts doesn't rely on his own abilities so much anymore and is too willing to allow himself to be lost to the power of the armor.  Drastic times calling for drastic measures and all that.

Griff nailed it. It's got nothing to do with pacing, it's the stakes being raised. Remember when Guts reflected on how much harder it was to fight to protect someone compared to fighting alone? That was in volume 23. It's still the case now, more so than it was back then. Look at those scenes with the slugs again. What he faced during the Occultation ceremony wasn't all that different.

And if there's a good reason that Guts is unleashing the beast here then I'll happily stand corrected

You're already standing corrected, you just haven't realized it yet. Just look at Guts' fight in the previous episode, then look at the panels of the group surrounded by the monsters. Look at the size of the slugs compared to the sea cucumbers.

And again, Guts isn't "unleashing the Beast", he's activating the armor. In the past that used to instantly put the Beast of Darkness in control. It might be different now that it's restrained. It could remain quietly in the dark. That's what we see in the panels we have so far. Only its eye visible while the chains rattle. Or, considering that it isn't exactly a trustworthy character, Guts could try to attack his friends and we'd see a panel showing the Beast straining against the chains, then moving back into the darkness.

And I know Guts hasn't had any time to attempt to control or master the armor and it's effects on him

He's tried to resist the armor's effects everytime he's used it, but it's just hopeless. With the way the armor works, he just can't "master" it and retain full control of himself while getting all the benefits simply by force of will. I think the developments of episode 290 will prove to be a big step in the right direction, but his mental state is just one part of the equation. The armor itself doesn't seem to be something he can meddle with from the inside (or the outside, as a non-magician).

I tend to avoid the ego-driven cock fest that permeates many discussions, because they don't interest me.

Yeah, with this sentence you definitely come across as a humble fellow whose only interest is to promote good discussion. :schierke:

If literary interpretation were as clearly cut as some here pretend it to be, reading would lose much of its charm.
Literary interpretation leaves many answers open, at least to a degree, but some things are pretty clearly settled.  Hopefully more people now understand why the armor motivation falls into the latter category.

Kind of contradicting yourself here. The truth is, not that many things in Berserk are left open to interpretation. Some are of course, but not as many as certain people like to think. That's in part because the author crafts his story in a very careful and detailed manner. So as it turns out, the excuse of diverging interpretations often ends up being used by people to try and justify their various misunderstandings.

I, too, have noticed that people have a hard time articulating--and for some even noticing--that the armor has been used more as a last ditch effort to save his new band than any other single reason.

Not just that, they don't understand how it works and can't differentiate it from the Beast of Darkness, as was made clear in this thread. For example dwarfkicker uses the two words alternatively in his posts, like they're just synonyms. Only, does it make sense to say Guts is "using the Beast" to protect his friends? Does the Beast care about killing sea slugs to protect them? Hell no it doesn't.

Offline kaimera

Re: Episode 315
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2010, 12:36:58 PM »
I read some facts about "Berserker" in Wikipedia and in my ency. They act in frenzy,fury or rage! In german you would call it "Raserei". That's nothing special, but a symbol of the norse berserkers were the wolves. They got a affinity to wolves or wolves-fur. Some say they are wolve-men.
A very interesting cite is:
"und sie waren wild wie Hunde oder Wölfe. Sie bissen in ihre Schilde und waren stark wie Bären oder Stiere. Sie erschlugen das Menschenvolk, und weder Feuer noch Stahl konnte ihnen etwas anhaben. Man nannte dies Berserkergang.“
freely translated:
"and they were wild as dogs or wolves. They bite into their shield and were strong as bears or bulls. They slayed the human beings, and neither fire nor steel could harm them. That was called the Berserkerwalk."

As you could see the berserkers were deeply connected or related to dogs and wolves. And you see the dark side of guts is a dog or wolve, or a beast between it! Then i thought i should go and look into some books for the symbol of the dog. And he is related to animal instincts (sexual instincts) and is a warning for suppressed emotions. Also it could relate to a person who couldn't handle social relationships. It is a symbol for Angst. Finally the wolve is related to aggression. This are just few of symbols i found. I searched for symbols in the oneiromancy which seemed to me as the most reasonable place to search for it. I mean the Dark side of guts is a subconsciously thing. And it overcomes him when he is in rage, trance or dream.

//edit. Sorry but when they got to skellig, griffith will come to smash the kingdom of the elves!  :griffnotevil: I mean he even wanted to kill schierkes master. Why would he tolerate the elves and their mighty king?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2010, 01:45:59 PM »
I read some facts about "Berserker" in Wikipedia and in my ency. They act in frenzy,fury or rage! In german you would call it "Raserei". That's nothing special, but a symbol of the norse berserkers were the wolves. They got a affinity to wolves or wolves-fur. Some say they are wolve-men.

Yeah, that's common knowledge. The word "berserk" itself comes from the bear pelts those warriors allegedly wore to battle. I don't know why you thought it was relevant though? I think everyone here is familiar with the traditional definition of a berserker.

I searched for symbols in the oneiromancy which seemed to me as the most reasonable place to search for it.

I'm not sure a book on dream interpretation is the most reasonable place to search for meaning on this actually. Especially since there are different schools of thought for it. Dogs can also symbolize loyalty and amiability, in Asia for example.

Sorry but when they got to skellig, griffith will come to smash the kingdom of the elves!  :griffnotevil: I mean he even wanted to kill schierkes master. Why would he tolerate the elves and their mighty king?

Flora lived nearby and he perceived her as an immediate threat, which is why he sent 2 of his lieutenants to deal with her. The context is different now: he has Falconia (and Midland) on his hands and the world is full of magical creatures. Elfhelm is far away, apparently inhabited by more than one powerful magic user, so do you suppose he'll send his whole army there? Would it be worth it for him?

Offline kaimera

Re: Episode 315
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2010, 02:15:47 PM »
Yeah, that's common knowledge. The word "berserk" itself comes from the bear pelts those warriors allegedly wore to battle. I don't know why you thought it was relevant though?
I think everyone here is familiar with the traditional definition of a berserker.
That's a bit wrong. I read that it was a theory that isn't common now because they say, berserker is the rage of fighting like a bear or wolve. Practically a bear pelt is too heavy for fighting. It would be more possible that it comes from a word that means bare or light. So berserker are light warriors that are fighting like bears. Also this was just some introduction and i thought that everyone was aware of it somehow. It was more about the fact that berserker were related to wolves that are somehow dogs.

I'm not sure a book on dream interpretation is the most reasonable place to search for meaning on this actually. Especially since there are different schools of thought for it. Dogs can also symbolize loyalty and amiability, in Asia for example.
Yeah you're right, that is not the reasonable place to search, but i couldn't think of any better. We don't get much information about guts inner life, but the information we get is something from his subconcious mind. I talked about the symbols in dreams which is a mirror of the subconscious i. That a dog could be a positive symbol is clear! But the dog of guts is threatening him and his friends. So i looked up what it means when the symbol of a dog is negative. And i also searched for other interpretations. But i thought they match so good, it was worth sharing it.
In conclusion a symbol in the subconscious mind is something which is only referring to the person that is experiencing this. A symbol in a society is something much different because it can differ to the meaning you have subconsciously of this thing.  

Flora lived nearby and he perceived her as an immediate threat, which is why he sent 2 of his lieutenants to deal with her. The context is different now: he has Falconia (and Midland) on his hands and the world is full of magical creatures. Elfhelm is far away, apparently inhabited by more than one powerful magic user, so do you suppose he'll send his whole army there? Would it be worth it for him?
Yeah, but she wasn't really a immediate threat. She was old and nearly dead. The only thing she could do was giving Guts the armor of the berserker. If Griffith/Femto predicted that, he would know, that Guts is the immediate threat to his new kingdom and plan. then he should be aware of the fact that guts is trying to rescue Casca and himself and powering up.
If he can't predict that guts is his threat, then he should predict that a place where his might couldn't harm someone he is threatening is a threat to himself. A little sting in his ass. But i think, in his autority he must forbid this place of being there. Maybe he really will start a war with the Devils army vs. Elfhelm. don't know. but i think this topic will be very interesting! :)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2010, 04:51:19 PM »
It would be more possible that it comes from a word that means bare or light. So berserker are light warriors that are fighting like bears.

Is that so? Could you please share your sources on that? Thanks in advance!

We don't get much information about guts inner life, but the information we get is something from his subconcious mind. I talked about the symbols in dreams which is a mirror of the subconscious i.

Honestly I'd call it a bit of a stretch.

That a dog could be a positive symbol is clear! But the dog of guts is threatening him and his friends. So i looked up what it means when the symbol of a dog is negative. And i also searched for other interpretations. But i thought they match so good, it was worth sharing it.

Yeah but don't you see the flaw in the fact you were searching for negative symbolism associated with dogs in the first place? It's not surprising you found what you were searching for. That's what I was trying to point out. There's no pertinence in a directed search returning generally matching results.

Yeah, but she wasn't really a immediate threat. She was old and nearly dead.

But did he know? She was affiliated with the Skull Knight, a known and acknowledged enemy. She was near and still powerful. He took action. That speaks for itself.

The only thing she could do was giving Guts the armor of the berserker. If Griffith/Femto predicted that, he would know, that Guts is the immediate threat to his new kingdom and plan. If he can't predict that guts is his threat, then he should predict that a place where his might couldn't harm someone he is threatening is a threat to himself.

Hahaha, are you serious? Griffith dismissed Guts in volume 22 just like he did in volume 3. He's been going out of his way to make Guts feel powerless and insignificant, almost irrationally so. He really hasn't treated Guts like a threat so far (and it might eventually turn out to be his undoing, like I've said many times before).

And the apostles were surprised to see Guts there, even more surprised when he donned the armor (one could argue Zodd was shocked), and explicitly said their mission was to kill Flora. Guts was more of a distraction for Grunbeld than anything.


Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2010, 05:24:05 PM »
Fucking beautiful. Guts is the salt to those slugs.  :badbone:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 315
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2010, 05:29:43 PM »
Man those slugs sure look gross. Schierke tells Guts to wait for her, but he clearly didn't have the time. I love the shot of Casca looking up while he glances back at her. Says it all really. Farnese's hand trying to stop him is great as well. So, dwarfkicker, are you still saying Guts had no good reason to activate the armor? And do you see that the Beast of Darkness is staying chained and in the dark?