Gutsu

Me & my bro were talking about berserk, he came up with an interesting question: "What good entity/force/power/god/diety is there in berserk?"...I thought and then said "Gutsu"...However is gutsu truly good or is it just his hatred of Griffith that drives him to kill all the apostals. If Guts ended up killing Grifith would he stop there? so really is guts the "Hero" of Berserk?

ShinHell9 said:

If Guts ended up killing Grifith would he stop there? so really is guts the "Hero" of Berserk?

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I'd say yes x 2.

Guts isn't a stereotyped hero, but the way miura tells us the story, he's the hero, fighting alone against evil, etc.

Guts is deep. He has been struggling to live since birth. He found joy with the Hawks, and now that the only joy in his life- his love, his comrades- are all ruined. He is confused, angry and destroyed by what happened, and now feels fit only for vengeance upon what took away what made him human. Worse, he is struggling to keep what humanity he has left within him, against overwhelming odds. He is deep because of this, and is far from a stereotype.
If anything, Guts is the anti-hero. He is neither charming nor kind and understanding, and does not hold others beyond his goals.

there is no hero in berserk

berserk is more life like than anything most of us has ever come across.

there is no 'good' or 'evil'

whens the last time you saw a 'hero' in real life

That's sort of what I meant. Guts cannot be classified as a stereotypical category. Nor can most of the main characters.

krebs4life said:

there is no 'good' or 'evil'

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How could you say the god hand is not pure evil? I agree berserk is very life like and theres never been a hero in life, but the god hand is evil.

No they aren't. Godhand are simply the rulers of karma and fate, as they are the hand of God that guides man. Things they do might seem evil, but it really is a matter of the person doing it. The people who make sacrifices are more evil than Godhand.

the idea is pure evil...he even says it! also the four god hand made sacrifices also, so they're still evil.

theblakeman said:

No they aren't. Godhand are simply the rulers of karma and fate, as they are the hand of God that guides man. Things they do might seem evil, but it really is a matter of the person doing it. The people who make sacrifices are more evil than Godhand.

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But they even refer to themselves as evil.

ShinHell9 said:

the idea is pure evil...he even says it!

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Actually, it says "ma" and that's not exactly "evil"... But I can't come up with a better English word. ^^;

Gatsu is Buddha! Gatsu is Buddha! Gatsu is Buddha!

His actions are pure, he has no intention to realize the consequences of his actions other than to perform them to regain his peace of mind. I don't know, I am really hooked on the role of Buddhism in Miura's work. It is obvious that Miura does not suggest any dominant religion in the series, other than introducing philosophies as to how one should live. Gatsu in my mind, is the most innocent character/hero I have ever seen. He is not boastful, is very human and makes mistakes, and, exhibits true human emotions which most are quite negative due to the events he has been exposed to and his journey to seek his state of peace and nirvana. I just loved it when he talks to himself and reminds himself he has nowhere to go, nothing to do, other than to swing his big ass sword at someone, in this case, Griffith. I just can't wait till Miura draws the $hit for the part where Gatsu chops Griffith in half, that will be the happiest day of my life (well, not really, but you know, close enuff^^).

Guts can't be buddhist, really ... else ( just one point because I'm lazy to argue with Buddhism which is a complex thing ) he wouldn't kill so many humans, since they could be Judeau's reincarnation ... and well people of occidental countries don't at such times ( medieval-like ) know about oriental beliefs
anyway, i'm reading the Stances of Nagarjuna right now and i advise you very much, i'm not very familiar with philosophy but it is very interesting ...

Re:Guts=Buddah

Could it be?

dogma eh? great movie.

didnt care much for dogma, but thats besides the point .... guts is a selfish person .... he only cares about himself, things relating to himself, and nothing else .... he is no hero .... he is a guy who has since birth been placed in riduculous situations by fate .... when it came down to hundreds of people dying implace of himself during the mozgus fight, he fought as hard as he could to survive as always and damned the whole bloody lot of them .... not a good guy, but possibly the greatest character ever .... he acts human and completely reactive .... he does what ever needs to be done to secure his best interests .... it used to be that he did whatever needed to be done to secure griffiths best interests(like killing kids) .... back then he used to feel bad for such actions .... in volume one, he incited the rage of the apostle knowing full well that it would cause the death of lots of innocent villagers .... i think the darkness within him reflects the worst of all human judgement; the grudges, the lack of morality, his body count, etc .... but hey, who could blame a guy whos mom gave birth to him while hang by her neck from a tree?(thats the kind of stuff that comes up at mass murder trials in the maniac's defense) .... man i love guts

[quote author=psymont link=board=2;threadid= he only cares about himself

I think you overlooked Casca,Griffith and the other hawks.

you missed the part where i said "things related to himself" ie:caska and hawks

Guillaume said:

Guts can't be buddhist, really ... else ( just one point because I'm lazy to argue with Buddhism which is a complex thing ) he wouldn't kill so many humans, since they could be Judeau's reincarnation ... and well people of occidental countries don't at such times ( medieval-like ) know about oriental beliefs
anyway, i'm reading the Stances of Nagarjuna right now and i advise you very much, i'm not very familiar with philosophy but it is very interesting ...

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I beg to differ, Buddhism is the philosophy or way in which one pursues to find their state of enlightment. To sum up, Buddhism tries to achieve the following:

(1) to lead a moral life,
(2) to be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, and
(3) to develop wisdom and understanding.

Referring to Gatsu:

1) The moral of life is that it is all about survival.
2) Gatsu is aware that his sword allows him to retreive his life, thus allowing him to live one day longer.
3) The wisdom Gatsu has gained is that reality is painful and full of suffering. He is not naive nor ignorant.

Now, back to the reasoning behind my thesis on why Gatsu is Buddha in my eyes:

The First Noble Truth
The first truth that Buddhist must realize is that the reality is painful and full of suffering. Kazaam, Gatsu knows this, and has lived it.

The Second Noble Truth
Pain and Suffering is caused by craving and ambition. Gatsu has a crave to take revenge on Griffith, that his sole crave. However, once he takes his sword and chops Griffith into pieces, he will have eliminated his crave and thus, will be allowed to live one day more but without Griffith, without the "crave".

The Third Noble Truth
The 3rd truth says that happiness and content can be achieved by dropping one's craves. However, due to a conflic of interest due to Gatsu' survival on earth, it is crucial that Gatsu hold on to the crave to kill Griffith, because if he doesn't, he will die.

The Fourth Noble Truth
The 8 Fold Path is the 4th truth. I will not go into this, but it is sort of like the 10 commandments that Christians have, minus the fear of some God and going to church, etc... An example would be not to kill another being for fun (e.g. hunting for game, not for food, killing whales to sell, deforesting, tricking pple, etc.)

There are 5 precerpts that are crucial in coming to an understanding as to why Gatsu is a likely candidate to become a Buddha:

1. not to take the life of anything living
2. not to take anything not freely given
3. to abstain from sexual misconduct and sensual overindulgence
4. to refrain from untrue speech
5. to avoid intoxication, that is, losing mindfulness.

Referring to Gatsu:

1. Truly, Gatsu has taken the life of another being, but his intention of taking life is not selfish, it is just a biological means of keeping him alive, thus his repeated self-conversation "What am I doing here?" and his "Emptiness" when he kills people.

2. Gatsu does not take, period, he is a humble bum.

3. Sexual indulgence and misconduct. To be honest, although he does have sex and does rape every now and then, I do not believe this is what Gatsu truly craves, its just a means to unload his sac of jizz. So this, I will just skip

4. Blah, Gatsu is not a talker, his speech is always true, he speaks what he thinks, and thinks what he feels, and feels what he is subjected to.

5. ROFL! This one is hilarious. We can't even tell if Gatsu is sane or insane. In any case, he is truly an innocent character in a dark world.

Anyway, I'll add on more info as time comes.

Guts lies when it helps him; for example, he told the villagers in the newer episode that they were on a religious pilgrimage to heal Kaska's madness.
He isn't innoncent, he killed that kid back in the Hawk days after all.
Guts never raped(ok, he was a little rough to Kaska when he first porked her). Sex is pretty meaningless for him. Killing apostles on the other hand isn't; his rage and beast could be seen as some sort of sensual overindulgence.
Oh, and I think Guts has a morale dilemma, should he hold onto Kaska or kill Griffith; Sk said he couldn't have both right before the Albion episode.

Concerning his "lie", he lied there because he knew them village popcorns couldn't take the hard truth, the reality, and besides, its a pretty cheap lie that doesn't do much damage. Concerning his overindulgence, it seems that Gatsu is trying to do what he considers would be the best solution, and that is to come up with a solution that satisfies all his problems and no compromising any other over the other.