New Berserk animation project confirmed

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Walter

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kaimera said:
Can't say I am happy with that CG SK. Looks like cel shading of XIII. No it doesn't look good. If it would look like that i would rather want a animated light novel like aaz mentioned :D haha...oh god :judo:
Ok, I feel like I'm colorblind or something. I thought both Zodd and SK's clips looked awesome. But many seem to be saying, "Oh it's just CG, fuck that." I don't get it. If it looks good, it looks good, whether it's been drawn completely by hand or was computer assisted. It's certainly not as blatantly CG as the PS2 game's Skully, so I really don't see a comparison in quality.

Basically, I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some kind of moral issue in using computers instead of it all being done by hand? Am I surrounded by Luddites?!
 

jackson_hurley

even the horses are cut in half!
I think I understand what they mean. I, on the other hand though, I find the clips really nice and I will be very happy if an animation is done. Be it cg or handdraw, I don't mind. I just want to see one of my favorite story moving on a screen. Lets stop being picky and just appreciate what'll be released if release there is.
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Walter said:
Ok, I feel like I'm colorblind or something. I thought both Zodd and SK's clips looked awesome. But many seem to be saying, "Oh it's just CG, fuck that." I don't get it. If it looks good, it looks good, whether it's been drawn completely by hand or was computer assisted. It's certainly not as blatantly CG as the PS2 game's Skully, so I really don't see a comparison in quality.

Basically, I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some kind of moral issue in using computers instead of it all being done by hand? Am I surrounded by Luddites?!

I think the difference lies in the method of CG. This CG is trying to emulate hand-drawn animation (Ie; using cell-shading and pen outlines) however it comes off looking overly smooth when compared to traditional animation. People didn't complain about the CG in the video game because Everything was CG. The characters were all heavily textured, with the style geared more towards realism than a cartoon.

I think people associate traditional animation with authenticity sometimes despite the quality. 2D animation is something people are used to. We've seen it since we were kids, while the CG feels foreign, despite looking cleaner and smoother.
 
Aphasia said:
I think the difference lies in the method of CG. This CG is trying to emulate hand-drawn animation (Ie; using cell-shading and pen outlines) however it comes off looking overly smooth when compared to traditional animation. People didn't complain about the CG in the video game because Everything was CG. The characters were all heavily textured, with the style geared more towards realism than a cartoon.

I think people associate traditional animation with authenticity sometimes despite the quality. 2D animation is something people are used to. We've seen it since we were kids, while the CG feels foreign, despite looking cleaner and smoother.
That's nearly my position. But i'm not against using CG in Anime, but it is indeed hard to embed it well. Also I had the feeling that cg could olden very fast when it is not very well embedded. The effect at the scene with zodd didn't bug me. But the CG with the SK, doesn't felt right. I mean the manga is very dark and the drawing style expresses that darkness very well. But a polished CG version. Okay i will try to make it easier to understand with some images etc. give me some time walther
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Walter said:
Ok, I feel like I'm colorblind or something. I thought both Zodd and SK's clips looked awesome. But many seem to be saying, "Oh it's just CG, fuck that." I don't get it. If it looks good, it looks good, whether it's been drawn completely by hand or was computer assisted. It's certainly not as blatantly CG as the PS2 game's Skully, so I really don't see a comparison in quality.

Basically, I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some kind of moral issue in using computers instead of it all being done by hand? Am I surrounded by Luddites?!

I don't get the complaints about the CG, either. It looks like high quality cell shaded CG to me. No different than I've seen it in other anime recently. It's always going to stand out against hand drawn animation, but they're getting better and better at blending it in these days. Are people looking for photorealism in their anime CG? Because that would stand out even more.
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Rhombaad said:
I don't get the complaints about the CG, either. It looks like high quality cell shaded CG to me. No different than I've seen it in other anime recently. It's always going to stand out against hand drawn animation, but they're getting better and better at blending it in these days. Are people looking for photorealism in their anime CG? Because that would stand out even more.

The cell-shading lacks a certain grittiness and roughness that is apparent in hand animation. Berserk is a dark and gritty Manga, so it can be clashing to see a perfectly smooth model of skull knight. I can personally tell a difference between the two, but not so much that it is jarring. The clips look soft. The shading, lighting and colors are all very soft feeling compared to the previous anime.

I actually prefer this style, though. The composition is much stronger, and overall the framing simply looks more artful. It looks less like an old anime and more like a cinematic experience. The CG we've seen so far (which is a minuscule sum) looks promising. I think nay-sayers should wait and see how it is incorporated (if at all) into a full production before casting judgement.

kaimera said:
Okay i will try to make it easier to understand with some images etc. give me some time walther

I look forward to this! although there's a certain effect you lose by juxtaposing images. Movement is one of the elements that differentiate traditional and computer drawn images. A computer has no problem interpolating 30 or 60 frames a second between poses. Animators often draw less than 30 frames a second (10-15) and then stretch it across a second.

For the sake of science, GIFS might work better.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Aphasia said:
The shading, lighting and colors are all very soft feeling compared to the previous anime.

I would attribute that to the low production values on the first anime rather than stylistic choices. Berserk is gritty, yes, but there's nothing wrong with the art looking polished.
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Rhombaad said:
I would attribute that to the low production values on the first anime rather than stylistic choices. Berserk is gritty, yes, but there's nothing wrong with the art looking polished.
Yeah, I'd say you're right. I think it had that effect though, whether it was intended or not.
 

DarkDragoon

Kuro no mahoutsukai
Walter said:
Ok, I feel like I'm colorblind or something. I thought both Zodd and SK's clips looked awesome. But many seem to be saying, "Oh it's just CG, fuck that." I don't get it. If it looks good, it looks good, whether it's been drawn completely by hand or was computer assisted. It's certainly not as blatantly CG as the PS2 game's Skully, so I really don't see a comparison in quality.

Basically, I feel like I'm missing something. Is there some kind of moral issue in using computers instead of it all being done by hand? Am I surrounded by Luddites?!
I think people have a hard time imagining how it will look integrated with the rest of the animation. From what I've seen in other modern anime, CG parts integrate very smoothly with the rest of the animation, and generally make the entire scene look sharper. Granted I've seen some bad CG cut into anime but this definitely doesn't look like that. Skull Knight looked bad ass, bad ass x10. There's no way that is not going to look good in the series if and when it happens.
 

Truder

"I frown at Griffith's nipples" -Aazealh
Wait.. does this mean that Femto & family might be in CG?

Thinking about it.. that sounds terrible. Hopefully they aren't in CG, I don't mind the apostles being in CG I suppose, but not the friggin God Hand.

Also, is Guts' Dragon Slayer CG too? because I paused it when guts swings it and it looks like it.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Truder said:
Wait.. does this mean that Femto & family might be in CG?

Thinking about it.. that sounds terrible. Hopefully they aren't in CG, I don't mind the apostles being in CG I suppose, but not the friggin God Hand.
Again I ask, what exactly is your reservation?
 

Truder

"I frown at Griffith's nipples" -Aazealh
I dont mind the CG, I think it looks fine with Zodd and Skull knight, but imagining :void: & :slan: in CG seems funky. I think :ubik: & :Conrad: (where's da love) would look great in CG on the other hand.
Femto can look good in any media, a crayon Femto would be fine. :femto:

I wonder if human form Zodd will be in CG.
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Femto would look great in this CG style, I think. I agree with Truder though, some characters seem to fit the bill better than others. Skull Knight especially, given he doesn't really "talk" or move his jaw.

Although if this motion capture rumor turns out to be true, it could work out fine. It takes a lot of work to get models to output believable expressions. Motion capture would make this easier and hopefully better. I'm personally hoping they'll use CG for some characters while retaining hand drawn artwork for a select few...

CG would look fine on the God Hand...If the commercials are any indicator, we'll at least be getting hand drawn Griffith, Guts and Caska. And dead soldiers.
 

Aazealh

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I don't have a problem with CG personally, though I can easily tell the difference (I'd already noticed it on the leaked picture of Zodd last year). Hopefully they'll go through great lengths to make it look as good and natural as possible.

Aphasia said:
The cell-shading lacks a certain grittiness and roughness that is apparent in hand animation. Berserk is a dark and gritty Manga, so it can be clashing to see a perfectly smooth model of skull knight. [...] The shading, lighting and colors are all very soft feeling compared to the previous anime.

I know you already came back on that but that makes me laugh honestly. The 1997 TV series sucked in almost every respect: character design, drawing, colors, animation... it was all pretty bad. And putting that aside, "rough and gritty" isn't how I'd define Miura's drawing style.

Aphasia said:
Skull Knight especially, given he doesn't really "talk" or move his jaw.

That's not a real jaw, remember, it's just a helmet.
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Aazealh said:
I don't have a problem with CG personally, though I can easily tell the difference (I'd already noticed it on the leaked picture of Zodd last year). Hopefully they'll go through great lengths to make it look as good and natural as possible.

I know you already came back on that but that makes me laugh honestly. The 1997 TV series sucked in almost every respect: character design, drawing, colors, animation... it was all pretty bad. And putting that aside, "rough and gritty" isn't how I'd define Miura's drawing style.

Haha, I concur for the most part. Though I remember it fondly since it introduced me to such a great series. Back in the day it was the bee's knees. Before I knew any better.

Not so much his style, but his subject matter. You're right though, his drawings have tightened up if anything over the years, and become very detailed. Some of the boat scenes are incredibly detailed. Occasionally it seems Miura will play around with a looser style, representing characters bordering on abstract. In these instances it seems he looses up, focusing on the overall emphasis of the panel versus detail. Maybe that's what makes his style so interesting; The contrasting elements in his art and how he uses both worlds to his advantage.

"Rough" wasn't perhaps the best wording as it implies a loose hand, or art that is incomplete or gesture like.

Aazealh said:
That's not a real jaw, remember, it's just a helmet.
I remembered. Aren't you proud of me? :casca:

On a different note, It's extremely cool to see something like this come to fruition. It's deserves a good anime...and another video game, please. Developed by Valve. Or Epic games. Please.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Aphasia said:
Not so much his style, but his subject matter. You're right though, his drawings have tightened up if anything over the years, and become very detailed.

Of course the story has some grit to it, but we were talking about CG here (so, graphic style). :slan:

Aphasia said:
Occasionally it seems Miura will play around with a looser style, representing characters bordering on abstract. In these instances it seems he looses up, focusing on the overall emphasis of the panel versus detail. Maybe that's what makes his style so interesting; The contrasting elements in his art and how he uses both worlds to his advantage.

Yeah I think he's a pretty versatile artist. I always like to see him experiment with different styles. Some of the older covers are eloquent in that regard.

Aphasia said:
another video game, please. Developed by Valve. Or Epic games. Please.

You can't be serious. It doesn't fit their respective profiles at all. Come to think of it, I don't know what developer I'd trust to make a good Berserk game. But that's not the appropriate thread to discuss it.
 
Aazealh said:
Of course the story has some grit to it, but we were talking about CG here (so, graphic style). :slan:

I kind of understand what Aphasia is getting at. The smooth detailing of CG seems to lack depth, which doesn't represent the level of detail in what we come to expect from the Berserk, therefore it doesn't portray it in the same graphical light and style of the manga. I personally would prefer a more dark and detailed colour palette for the anime, but beggars can't be choosers.

Aazealh said:
Yeah I think he's a pretty versatile artist. I always like to see him experiment with different styles. Some of the older covers are eloquent in that regard.

Miura's work continues to amaze me even now. The level of detail is astonishing and his versatility really is seamless from one panel to the next. I think I look forward to his artwork just as much as the progression of the story

Aazealh said:
You can't be serious. It doesn't fit their respective profiles at all. Come to think of it, I don't know what developer I'd trust to make a good Berserk game. But that's not the appropriate thread to discuss it.

I would say Yuke's and Sammy did quite a good job with the PS2 game. While it wasn't perfect I was happy with it for a series tie-in. I wouldn't mind seeing if someone like the team behind God of War or Shadow of the Colossus give it a go. But like you say, that's for another topic.
 
I think the CG looks great. Skull Knight especially looks amazing.

Though considering that Berserk shows scenes with large armies they'll probably intend to use CG to animate these armies. This is probably the main reason why they decided to use CG for the anime as there will be hundreds/thousands of soldiers at numerous scenes and using CG will make it easier to make. It may look a bit awkward at times (considering what I've seen of other CG armies in other animes), but it will look better than either hundreds of poor and quickly drawn figures or still drawings depicting a battle like in the old Berserk anime.
 

SlimeBeherit

[FIGHT][SPELL] [SACRIFICE][ITEM]
JezzaX said:
I would say Yuke's and Sammy did quite a good job with the PS2 game. While it wasn't perfect I was happy with it for a series tie-in. I wouldn't mind seeing if someone like the team behind God of War or Shadow of the Colossus give it a go. But like you say, that's for another topic.

I'll give you that Team ICO might make something interesting(though i would assume there would be no cut-scenes) but its not really their style.I would be against SCE Santa Monica going anywhere near Berserk, the God of War series makes me cringe.But for a good game overall maybe the Sega team behind the Yakuza series...I dunno either :farnese:
 
kaimera said:
That's nearly my position. But i'm not against using CG in Anime, but it is indeed hard to embed it well. Also I had the feeling that cg could olden very fast when it is not very well embedded. The effect at the scene with zodd didn't bug me. But the CG with the SK, doesn't felt right. I mean the manga is very dark and the drawing style expresses that darkness very well. But a polished CG version. Okay i will try to make it easier to understand with some images etc. give me some time walther

I don't think I'll ever understand people's problem with CG


It looks gorgeous. How can you feel uncomfortable with it? If anything the original 1997 anime warranted more uneasy feelings. The characters look nothing like their manga counterparts. The new Berserk Griffith feels like Griffith from the manga come alive same with Skully.
 
Slime_Beherit said:
the Sega team behind the Yakuza series
.

Actually, I reckon they would do a great job. If they could hand it to anyone I would say Yu Suzuki, since he seems almost as passionate about his work as Miura is about his.
 
Aphasia said:
If the commercials are any indicator, we'll at least be getting hand drawn Griffith, Guts and Casca. And dead soldiers.

Guts and the soldiers in the commercials are definitely cell-shaded CG. Pretty sure the others are, too (Griffith's armour is, at least). That's why they said "Full CG", and part of why I don't mind it. I tend to find it distracting when they mix hand-drawn 2D and cell-shaded 3D, but this is more like Valkyria Chronicles or something. The fact that it's hard to tell shows they're doing a good job. It's normally the way things move that give them away.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I think most of the complaining is just that; bitching for the sake of it. There's nothing wrong with the Skully footage, and most of the CG and cel animation are complimentary if not totally co-dependent anyway. It's already been demonstrated that more of it is CG than even the people it allegedly sticks out like a sore thumb to realize (like Griffith's armor). Furthermore, if it's not just empty one line pejoratives, the reasoning behind the complaints are being expressed in vagaries like it somehow not being Berserk enough. There's the "reason" you were asking for, Wally, "it's just not Berserk." =)
 

Aphasia

ALL MYSTERIES MUST BE SOLVED
Heh, yeah, I just pulled a few developers out of my ass. I wasn't entirely serious, but a Berserk game would be cool. Anyways.

Sven Viking said:
Guts and the soldiers in the commercials are definitely cell-shaded CG. Pretty sure the others are, too (Griffith's armour is, at least). That's why they said "Full CG", and part of why I don't mind it.

Are you sure? I thought just parts of guts was 3D, like his false arm/sword. If you're right then I'm thoroughly impressed by the quality of the cell shading on a human character. Fooled me. Although you can definitely tell with Zodd and Skull Knight.

Also, Griffith is right. People will complain, always, about everything. Gives them something to do.
 
Slime_Beherit said:
I'll give you that Team ICO might make something interesting(though i would assume there would be no cut-scenes) but its not really their style.I would be against SCE Santa Monica going anywhere near Berserk, the God of War series makes me cringe.But for a good game overall maybe the Sega team behind the Yakuza series...I dunno either :farnese:
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/tgs-10-asuras-wrath/704740 whoever is making that would make a good berserk game since it had me thinking of Berserk on bionic steroids with a tab of fist of the north star lol
 
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