Author Topic: Nintendo 3DS  (Read 51078 times)

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Offline Saephon

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2011, 10:49:33 AM »
Ashcraft's article got me thinking. Why do I feel like every piece of new hardware Nintendo makes that has an "innovation", eventually entertains me more when that feature is ignored? Basically, my favorite games on the:

Wii - classic style or cube controller work best
DS - touch controls unnecessary (sometimes a detriment)   edit: To be fair, the second screen is fantastic. Just the touch part that isn't always intuitive.
and now the 3DS works best without 3D? Seriously?

Like, I enjoy these products and there are always great games on them. But doesn't it bother anyone else that these gimmicks aren't usually what makes the games great? I'm starting to wish Nintendo would just make a cutting-edge console, just so we can SEE how the games would be on it then. We've yet to see Nintendo lead a hardware race in terms of raw power. Maybe I'll just always be a PC gamer at heart, regardless of how many consoles I own. It's always the software that leaves a lasting impression on me; not the kind of controller I'm using, or HOW the pretty graphics reach my eyes. To me they're just tools, that are best implemented in a simple but capable manner. If you're not thinking about the interface, you're doing it right.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 12:03:09 PM by Saephon »
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2011, 12:16:37 PM »
I'm starting to wish Nintendo would just make a cutting-edge console, just so we can SEE how the games would be on it then.

A man after my own heart, but...

We've yet to see Nintendo lead a hardware race in terms of raw power.

...that worked out so well for them with the Gamecube you didn't even remember it happened. :carcus:

Maybe I'll just always be a PC gamer at heart, regardless of how many consoles I own.

That's an arbitrary construct these days.

It's always the software that leaves a lasting impression on me; not the kind of controller I'm using, or HOW the pretty graphics reach my eyes. To me they're just tools, that are best implemented in a simple but capable manner. If you're not thinking about the interface, you're doing it right.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive though. I agree these innovations haven't done much for me compared to an old-fashioned controller, but that doesn't mean I want them to stop trying. I want the best of both worlds: a strong foundation honoring the fundamentals, then experimentation and innovation on top of that. The 3DS seems a prime example of this philosophy, it's cutting edge in every respect.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2011, 12:17:48 PM »
Wii - classic style or cube controller work best

I don't know about that. No More Heroes did a great job with the Wiimote as far as I'm concerned. And I've played every Wii game I have with the classic Wiimote/Nunchuk combo and have no complaints.

DS - touch controls unnecessary (sometimes a detriment)   edit: To be fair, the second screen is fantastic. Just the touch part that isn't always intuitive.

To be fair, the touch screen is appropriate for some games and not for others. It greatly varies depending on what you play.

and now the 3DS works best without 3D? Seriously?

"3D gives some people headaches"  is more like it. Apparently (from what I read), you actually become used to it after a little while (a week or so). According to what I've been told so far, there are people who love 3D and people who hate it. I guess I'll choose my camp after I try it, but considering 3D has been the focus not only of the video game industry but also of the movie industry, I think those who can't withstand it should voice their concerns rapidly... Before it becomes omnipresent.

I'm starting to wish Nintendo would just make a cutting-edge console, just so we can SEE how the games would be on it then. We've yet to see Nintendo lead a hardware race in terms of raw power.

Nintendo tried making a cutting edge console with the N64. Then they tried again with the GameCube. Then they had to try something else because they were going bankrupt.

Offline Aphasia

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2011, 01:47:21 PM »
3D killjoy:

http://kotaku.com/#!5776305/why-i-stopped-playing-the-3ds-in-3d
Apparently Nintendo's target audience for this ad are apple's dumbest users, "Whoa, where's that coming from!? I better check behind the DS!" Idiots, don't they know that the magical elves making it work are inside? Anyway, that's a horrible ad. Can't they just make an accurate CGI recreation that accurately demonstrates what it basically looks like with a disclaimer noting that fact?

The third dimension! Be amazed! Boogity boogity boo!!!

To be honest I've never enjoyed 3D.  I feel like it just muddies the picture and gives me a headache after 5 minutes.  I've seen it done better in some movies, but there's never been an instance where I wanted 3D over 2D visuals.

Nintendo tried making a cutting edge console with the N64. Then they tried again with the GameCube. Then they had to try something else because they were going bankrupt.

Pretty graphics are expensive.  Never heard that Nintendo almost became bankrupt, news to me.  Whatever the reason, they made a good choice to go lower end.  Cheaper for the developers too.  Unrelated, but sometimes when I hear about how successful the Wii is I'm surprised it hasn't trumped the PS2.  I forgot how many units that thing moved.  Gracious.

DS games are backwards compatible right? I'm thinking more and more about pre-ordering this guy.  They added a new color on the amazon page too.  Classy black.  Nice.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2011, 03:38:38 PM »
To be honest I've never enjoyed 3D.  I feel like it just muddies the picture and gives me a headache after 5 minutes.  I've seen it done better in some movies, but there's never been an instance where I wanted 3D over 2D visuals.

The use of 3D in games vastly differs from that of 3D in movies though. I wouldn't compare the two too directly. Personally I'm going to wait to experience it myself before I judge what it's worth. I might even shell the bucks for glasses to play in 3D on my PC if the 3DS convinces me.

Never heard that Nintendo almost became bankrupt, news to me.

Well I was exaggerating, it wasn't that bad. But they couldn't have kept doing the same thing for much longer, which is why they changed their approach.

DS games are backwards compatible right? I'm thinking more and more about pre-ordering this guy.  They added a new color on the amazon page too.  Classy black.  Nice.

Yup, it is. For the anecdote, what triggered my preorder was the price on Amazon: 224. That and the fact it might be hard to get one later on when all the good games will be out. Not to mention that my original NDS has earned its rest after all these years of service.

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2011, 04:10:02 PM »
The mere fact that an Ashcrap article is driving discussion in this thread is enough to make me vomit. Earlier in the day he posted about the relevance of upskirt shots in a zombie Yakuza game. The guy constantly takes sensationalistic approaches to headlines and stories. He is kotaku's worst offender in that regard. Take anything he writes with about a pound of salt.
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Offline Eluvei

Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2011, 04:32:27 PM »
I think we all know how terrible Kotaku is, but discussion on the side effects of 3D is something I'm interested in.

The use of 3D in games vastly differs from that of 3D in movies though. I wouldn't compare the two too directly. Personally I'm going to wait to experience it myself before I judge what it's worth..

Yeah, they're very different indeed. I'm hoping we'll get some serious articles on the subject in the next few weeks.

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2011, 05:33:52 PM »
People would be stupid to buy this device solely for the 3D. I see a lot of people missing the point here -- the importance of the 3DS is that it's Nintendo's next step forward in the handheld market, after an incredible track record with their previous handhelds. The fact that a visual gimmick reportedly gave a Japanophile a headache after a week of intense use is not a breaking point in the potential success of the 3DS.
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Offline Aphasia

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2011, 08:14:13 PM »
The use of 3D in games vastly differs from that of 3D in movies though. I wouldn't compare the two too directly. Personally I'm going to wait to experience it myself before I judge what it's worth. I might even shell the bucks for glasses to play in 3D on my PC if the 3DS convinces me.

Well I was exaggerating, it wasn't that bad. But they couldn't have kept doing the same thing for much longer, which is why they changed their approach.

Yup, it is. For the anecdote, what triggered my preorder was the price on Amazon: 224. That and the fact it might be hard to get one later on when all the good games will be out. Not to mention that my original NDS has earned its rest after all these years of service.

True, true, I'll do the same.  I'm actually really excited to see a 3DS work it's magic.  Not being a fan of traditional 3D, this might end up better than expected.  The backwards compatibility is great.  It always urks me when companies yank compatibility from their platforms.  I can understand it from a business perspective, for instance...PS2's are still selling.  But from a convenience standpoint it's awesome to have.  

The mere fact that an Ashcrap article is driving discussion in this thread is enough to make me vomit. Earlier in the day he posted about the relevance of upskirt shots in a zombie Yakuza game. The guy constantly takes sensationalistic approaches to headlines and stories. He is kotaku's worst offender in that regard. Take anything he writes with about a pound of salt.

Yarrr peon article writers!! :ganishka: I've never really taken anything Kotaku said seriously.  Though like Eluvei said I'm interested to see the side effects 3D is having.  I also get motion sick easy.

People would be stupid to buy this device solely for the 3D. I see a lot of people missing the point here -- the importance of the 3DS is that it's Nintendo's next step forward in the handheld market, after an incredible track record with their previous handhelds. The fact that a visual gimmick reportedly gave a Japanophile a headache after a week of intense use is not a breaking point in the potential success of the 3DS.

I certainly don't see the 3D being detrimental to the success of the 3DS (despite whatever effects it may have).  It seems more like a marketing tool than anything.  It's not just another DS, it's better, faster and it has 3D! :badbone: I see it becoming something akin to the Wii motion controls.  Something unique to the system, but not required for great games.  Nintendo isn't requiring 3D support either, just "encouraging" it from what I've read.  The only real reason people buy game systems is to play games on, unless I'm missing something.

Pokemon white is looking slick.  I haven't played a game in the series since Red.  Maybe I'll be an indie hipster and get black. :puck:

PS: http://www.destructoid.com/feature-your-nintendo-3ds-questions-answered-195648.phtml

There's a link to an in depth 3DS FAQ that I found quite helpful.  Dale's opinion of the 3D was optimistic.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:24:34 PM by Aphasia »

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2011, 08:28:39 PM »
I've never really taken anything Kotaku said seriously.  Though like Eluvei said I'm interested to see the side effects 3D is having.
The guy that wrote that blog post has zero credibility, as he's proven time after time. This is the same guy who reports on japanese porn stars in the same breath that he talks about video games. He's in it for the clicks. What he says about his experience can't be taken seriously, so I just fail to see the point in basing any discussion off him.

Quote
I certainly don't see the 3D being detrimental to the success of the 3DS (despite whatever effects it may have).  It seems more like a marketing tool than anything.
To use the party line, it allows you to experience games in a different way than before. That's been Nintendo's design model for years.
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Offline Aphasia

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2011, 08:45:21 PM »
The guy that wrote that blog post has zero credibility, as he's proven time after time. This is the same guy who reports on japanese porn stars in the same breath that he talks about video games. He's in it for the clicks. What he says about his experience can't be taken seriously, so I just fail to see the point in basing any discussion off him.
To use the party line, it allows you to experience games in a different way than before. That's been Nintendo's design model for years.

I didn't even read the article, but the topic itself isn't irrelevant because an asshat talked about it on an attention starved gamesite. :troll:

True, true.  I can just hear reggie whispering promises of three dimensions softly in my ear as he reaches his hand in my back pocket.


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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2011, 08:50:44 PM »
I didn't even read the article, but the topic itself isn't irrelevant because an asshat talked about it on an attention starved gamesite. :troll:
What's the topic, though? Long-term effects of 3D on the user? If that's the topic, what knowledge would we base a conversation like that on? This guy's experience?

Also, it's not true to say that Kotaku is attention-starved. They get a lot of attention. In fact, they've engorged themselves on clicks through attention-grabbing stories like the one we're currently "discussing."
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2011, 08:51:03 PM »
The guy that wrote that blog post has zero credibility, as he's proven time after time. This is the same guy who reports on japanese porn stars in the same breath that he talks about video games. He's in it for the clicks. What he says about his experience can't be taken seriously, so why are we even talking about it?

Well, as the offending poster and someone with visual-based migraines from time to time (playing Arkham Asylum last week was giving me a headache for some reason last week, only lasted when I played, weird), I was interested in discussing the potential side effects. The source of that particular article aside, that's still a valid theoretical discussion in itself, and it's not just coming from that article as Aaz pointed out. If the main selling point of a system consistently made me ill, or it was something I needed to get used to, that's more important to me than its game library or pedigree. Anyway, as important as everything besides the 3D is, it's a different story buying a 3DS knowing one wouldn't/couldn't use the 3D, or how I might have to personally adjust.

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2011, 08:59:46 PM »
Here's some theoretical discussion, then:

After Christmas, I bought a new monitor, upgrading from a 19" 16:10 monitor to a 23" 16:9 with a much faster refresh rate. For the first week of usage, I had headaches and honestly felt nauseous after playing first-person shooters with the highest refresh rate, particularly during longer play sessions. I remember having the same feelings for the first 20-30 minutes of Avatar, before my eyes grew accustomed to the 3D. After a week or so of using the new monitor, these feelings subsided because my eyes had grown used to the new refresh rate and configuration.

My theory is, my experience as described above won't be too much different from adapting to the way 3D is presented on the 3DS.

Quote
If the main selling point of a system consistently made me ill, or it was something I needed to get used, that's more important to me than its game library or pedigree.
This doesn't any make sense to me. You don't strike me as the kind of person who would buy something because of a "main selling point." Particularly when that main selling point can be turned off without affecting the gameplay. The relevance of any device comes down to its application, and in terms of game consoles or handhelds, it's up to the library of games. That's the most important feature.

I don't mind sharing that I really don't give two shits about the 3D in this device. I'm in it because I love the DS and the creative things that small developers have done on the platform in the past. I have no doubts we'll continue to see that kind of innovation, and it won't be thanks to 3D that any of that occurs.
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Offline Aphasia

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2011, 09:05:24 PM »
What's the topic, though? Long-term effects of 3D on the user? If that's the topic, what knowledge would we base a conversation like that on? This guy's experience?

Also, it's not true to say that Kotaku is attention-starved. They get a lot of attention. In fact, they've engorged themselves on clicks through attention-grabbing stories like the one we're currently "discussing."

I think one person posted a link to the Kotaku article, the rest of the discussion has had less to do with Kotaku and more with the effect the 3D will have on your eyes.  I personally value Dale North's opinion as a reasonable one.  He has a lot of sane gaming articles on Destructoid, and has spent a good deal of time with the 3DS using all the various elements on the hardware (Japanese version).  You should try that link I supplied above.  True, true.

Well, as the offending poster and someone with visual-based migraines from time to time (playing Arkham Asylum last week was giving me a headachefor som reason last week, only lasted when I played, weird), I was interested in discussing the potential side effects. The source of that particular article aside, that's still a valid theoretical discussion in itself, and it's not just coming from that article as Aaz pointed out. If the main selling point of a system consistently made me ill, or it was something I needed to get used to, that's more important to me than its game library or pedigree. Anyway, as important as everything besides the 3D is, it's a different story buying a 3DS knowing I wouldn't/couldn't use the 3D, or how I might have to adjust.

Good points.  I can relate to you in that some game effects make me dizzy/give me a headache, etc.  So this is surely a valid concern among gamers who are planning on spending a lot of time with the system.  At least if you plan on using the 3D in any capacity.  I know it can be turned off, but icing on the cake is what makes it delicious right? :carcus:
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 09:16:40 PM by Aphasia »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2011, 09:34:28 PM »
This doesn't any make sense to me. You don't strike me as the kind of person who would buy something because of a "main selling point."

Correct, more likely I wouldn't buy something over its main selling point. Also, the "selling" part goes both ways, and it's important to me because I'm paying extra for it regardless of whether I use it or not. I'd prefer to be able to really use it if I'm buying it anyway.

Particularly when that main selling point can be turned off without affecting the gameplay. The relevance of any device comes down to its application, and in terms of game consoles or handhelds, it's up to the library of games. That's the most important feature.

The current list of games doesn't justify a purchase for me either. Maybe you see a lot of must plays for you already, but I don't. So, I'd be buying based on potential in either case, but I'd certainly have to test drive the 3D first. Tweaking the "main selling point" semantics, it's supposed to be one of the main features, or the innovation that, "allows you to experience games in a different way than before." Or, you could just turn it off if it doesn't work. =)

I don't mind sharing that I really don't give two shits about the 3D in this device. I'm in it because I love the DS and the creative things that small developers have done on the platform in the past. I have no doubts we'll continue to see that kind of innovation, and it won't be thanks to 3D that any of that occurs.

Well, I don't share that experience, I'm largely ignorant of it with the DS, I've never had a good history with handhelds and in general they don't hold my interest. I'm trying to give Nintendo credit though, I'd like to think they're trying to do something significant with this like the dual screen stylus, not just a visual gimmick. The distinction is important to me, otherwise I'll just buy a DS and save $200.

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2011, 10:04:21 PM »
The current list of games doesn't justify a purchase for me either. Maybe you see a lot of must plays for you already, but I don't. So, I'd be buying based on potential in either case, but I'd certainly have to test drive the 3D first.
I'm not buying it at launch for a number of reasons. First, I'm broke right now. Second, the launch lineup is indeed sparse. The only game I'm interested in among them is Pilotwings, and to a smaller extent, Street Fighter. I'll probably get my 3DS over the summer, when the library has broadened a bit.

Quote
Tweaking the "main selling point" semantics, it's supposed to be one of the main features, or the innovation that, "allows you to experience games in a different way than before." Or, you could just turn it off if it doesn't work. =)
Is the alternative better? Not having an off switch?

I'm trying to give Nintendo credit though, I'd like to think they're trying to do something significant with this like the dual screen stylus, not just a visual gimmick.
I don't personally put a lot of stock in the importance of 3D. But I haven't experienced it yet. Maybe they'll wow me. Maybe I'll be underwhelmed. But either way, I'm not interested in the device for its 3D capabilities, so the loss of them won't affect me.

Quote
The distinction is important to me, otherwise I'll just buy a DS and save $200.
Well, you should have a DS already at this point anyway. But they're two different devices, so I'm not seeing your point in comparing them.
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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2011, 10:25:56 PM »
Is the alternative better? Not having an off switch?

I wasn't railing against the off switch itself. =)

It would simply be best if everything worked well for what they're charging for it.

Well, you should have a DS already at this point anyway.

The fact that I don't though certainly gives me pause before splurging on a more expensive model, whereas the 3DS sounds like a no brainer for DS fans.

But they're two different devices, so I'm not seeing your point in comparing them.

That's the point of comparing anything, and it's not like they're completely unrelated like I'm comparing a refrigerator to an airplane here. It's natural to compare Nintendo's new handheld to their previous one, especially when they share similar design philosophies. Anyway, the point being if the 3D and 3DS specific games aren't compelling yet, I might be just as well served seeing how I like that style by getting a DS, like you said I should.

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2011, 10:31:25 PM »
It would simply be best if everything worked well for what they're charging for it.
It sounds to me like it does work well, but for people who are overly sensitive to the 3D, you can turn it down or turn it off. I'm not sure what else Nintendo could have done, from a design perspective.

Quote
That's the point of comparing anything, and it's not like they're completely unrelated like I'm comparing a refrigerator to an airplane here. It's natural to compare Nintendo's new handheld to their previous one, especially when they share similar design features.
The way you were going about it sounded to me like: "I want a handheld, but I don't like 3D. So I should get the DS." That doesn't make sense, because the libraries for each system are different (though the 3DS is backwards compatible), and the hardware specs are completely different. It's the evolution of the product, not just a DS with 3D capability.
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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2011, 11:31:03 PM »
In your words, it's just yet to have a killer app for me.

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2011, 11:34:31 PM »
In your words, it's just yet to have a killer app for me.
And I understand your hesitancy, in light of that. Hell, it's why I myself am holding off on purchasing a 3DS. But seriously, you should get one for the DS games alone, with the promise of better things to come.
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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2011, 09:39:06 AM »
Pokemon white is looking slick.  I haven't played a game in the series since Red.  Maybe I'll be an indie hipster and get black. :puck:

From the reviews I've read it looks like it's one of the best if not THE best in the series. I haven't played one since the original release either, and it's tempting me a bit.

PS: http://www.destructoid.com/feature-your-nintendo-3ds-questions-answered-195648.phtml

There's a link to an in depth 3DS FAQ that I found quite helpful.  Dale's opinion of the 3D was optimistic.

That's a pretty good article, thanks. The guy's experience with 3D is reassuring: despite have problems with 3D movies and even conventional 3D TV screens, he has no issues at all with the 3DS. The list of features included with the 3DS is also useful for those who haven't followed its release in detail:

Quote
I'm not sure what they'll be called in the US version, but here's a list of what's included on the Japanese 3DS:

    * Nintendo 3DS Sound (sound player, recorder)
    * Nintendo 3DS Camera
    * Mii Studio (make your Mii)
    * Mii Hiroba (the Street Pass games application)
    * Street Pass Quest (a faux RPG that uses Street Pass Mii data)
    * Street Pass Puzzle (Street Pass Miis pass along puzzle board pieces)
    * Face Shooting (an AR game where you shoot your own face)
    * Augmented Reality Games (an app that works with the included AR cards)
    * Nintendo Zone (a browser-style app that connects with Nintendo's Wifi points)

And I don't think it was mentioned yet in the thread, but the 3DS' eShop will have Game Gear & Turbografx/PC Engine games. Columns, Dragon Crystal, Sonic & Tails, Sonic Drift 2 and The GG Shinobi will launch with the shop in May.

Offline Aphasia

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2011, 02:23:52 AM »
From the reviews I've read it looks like it's one of the best if not THE best in the series. I haven't played one since the original release either, and it's tempting me a bit.

That's a pretty good article, thanks. The guy's experience with 3D is reassuring: despite have problems with 3D movies and even conventional 3D TV screens, he has no issues at all with the 3DS. The list of features included with the 3DS is also useful for those who haven't followed its release in detail:

And I don't think it was mentioned yet in the thread, but the 3DS' eShop will have Game Gear & Turbografx/PC Engine games. Columns, Dragon Crystal, Sonic & Tails, Sonic Drift 2 and The GG Shinobi will launch with the shop in May.

We have a Zelda thread! That's nice. :casca:

Yeah, to be honest Pokemon is the driving force behind my desire for a 3DS.  Getting a DS would be a little pointless with the 3DS having so much promise.  The thought of going back to Pokemon on a handheld sounds immensely fun.  It's reassuring that the game is garnering such a great response.  I wish I wouldn't have gotten rid of my old gameboy.  Those things were so cool.  I used to be really into Nintendo's handhelds, but after color I just stopped.  

Yeah, that article is quite helpful.  Glad you found it useful!

Steel Diver is another game that looks pretty neat.  Not to mention the Cave Story remake that is being made solely for me. :daiba:

EDIT: reserved a classy black 3DS. :femto:
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 02:48:10 AM by Aphasia »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2011, 09:48:17 PM »
http://www.siliconera.com/2011/03/16/rocket-slime-returns-slime-mori-mori-dragon-quest-3-coming-to-3ds/

Walter mentioned this to me yesterday and I just have to share this even if he won't. Rocket Slime is an amazing title for the DS and this sequel is a must-have for the 3DS as far as I'm concerned. It just cannot come out soon enough. Now I just hope those European 3DSs can really play imported games, because the NDS one never came out here and I played a US version, just like I did for many other titles.

Offline m

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Re: Nintendo 3DS
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2011, 07:42:25 PM »

I pre-ordered one today. Up until this point I was thinking that I would probably be able to get one if I walked into a store around the time they opened, but somehow I became less and less convinced that I'd be able to get one like that. Hearing that some stores will open at midnight to start selling them as early as possible definitely helped changing my mind.

About five days to go... It's been a while since I last looked forward to a console release this much.