Author Topic: Disparity between nude men and women  (Read 26324 times)

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Offline m

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Disparity between nude men and women
« on: November 08, 2010, 06:06:59 PM »

My wife is finally reading Berserk after years of nagging from me. She just finished volume 23 and though she has liked what she has read so far, there is something that has bothered her for a while now, and that is the fact that according to her, all the women that are depicted nude in the manga have nice bodies as opposed to the men depicted nude whose bodies have all kinds of shapes and forms.

Is there is something to what my wife says? If so, why do you think this is?

I personally hadn't noticed this, but once my wife pointed it out I think I have to agree, for instance I don't remember seeing, an overweight nude woman, but I have to admit that I didn't go through the volumes looking for one, or for an example that contradicts my wife's claim for that matter.

Anyway, my wife and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this, specially if other women have thought something similar.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2010, 06:11:58 PM »
Is there is something to what my wife says? If so, why do you think this is?

I think not. As far as naked men go, I can't say there's a lack of good looking ones, the first of them being Guts, the main character. Concerning the lack of naked obese people (men and women), well usually the poor folks getting killed aren't likely to have had enough food and leisure to grow that fat. If you look at the orgy in volume 18 for example, both the men and the women are slim and from the little we can see of them they all look reasonably attractive physically, though that's obviously a subjective matter.

What ugly naked men "without nice bodies" is she referring to? People who were transformed into monsters? Those are kind of a special case, and it's true that there are more monstrous men than monstrous women. But even so, if you pay attention, most of them are muscular. As for "ugly" (as in ugly faces) or just plain, there are quite a few females who fit the bill.

Offline Doc

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 06:31:05 PM »
I have to admit, most of Miura's female nobodies (rape victims etc.) are mostly slim, blonde women. There's very little variety in their appearance. I think it's too obvious to not be deliberate. 

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 06:35:29 PM »
I have to admit, most of Miura's female nobodies (rape victims etc.) are mostly slim, blonde women. There's very little variety in their appearance. I think it's too obvious to not be deliberate.

It's kind of the default Midlandian (and surrounding regions) type. If you look at Enoch for example, the men were all mostly blond and slim as well.

Offline m

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2010, 06:41:56 PM »
I think not. As far as naked men go, I can't say there's a lack of good looking ones, the first of them being Guts, the main character.

I'm sorry I didn't explain myself correctly, I didn't mean to say that only ugly men are depicted naked, but that the men depicted naked come in all shapes and sizes, whereas naked women have quite similar complexion and they are well, quite attractive.

Concerning the lack of naked obese people (men and women), well usually the poor folks getting killed aren't likely to have had enough food and leisure to grow that fat. If you look at the orgy in volume 18 for example, both the men and the women are slim and from the little we can see of them they all look reasonably attractive physically, though that's obviously a subjective matter.

What ugly naked men "without nice bodies" is she referring to? People who were transformed into monsters? Those are kind of a special case, and it's true that there are more monstrous men than monstrous women. But even so, if you really pay attention, most of them are muscular.

She's referring to regular men, for example, in the orgy you gave as an example, the guy that removed Casca's bandages has quite the pot belly going on. I wouldn't call that guy reasonably attractive nor muscular, the same goes for the guy that was going to sacrifice Nina. The men in the orgy do have different types of bodies, you can see tall guys, short guys, guys with round bellies, skinny guys, bold guys, and so on. The women however, even though they do look like they are not eating well, they all have healthy breasts and none of them have round bellies, and the differences in body shapes are a lot less noticeable.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2010, 07:08:38 PM »
I'm sorry I didn't explain myself correctly, I didn't mean to say that only ugly men are depicted naked, but that the men depicted naked come in all shapes and sizes, whereas naked women have quite similar complexion and they are well, quite attractive.

But that's a pretty vague way to put things. Nothing's going to beat pictures here, to see precise examples of what you mean. And men also all have a similar complexion as far as I can tell. There are few dark skinned men in the story.

She's referring to regular men, for example, in the orgy you gave as an example, the guy that removed Casca's bandages has quite the pot belly going on. I wouldn't call that guy reasonably attractive nor muscular, the same goes for the guy that was going to sacrifice Nina.

But these are special simply because they play the roles they do, which is why they were made specifically repulsive: to add to the atmosphere. I wouldn't consider them "random guys" for that particular reason. If you want "random" guys, how about those who brought Nina to be executed?



See what I mean?

The men in the orgy do have different types of bodies, you can see tall guys, short guys, guys with round bellies, skinny guys, bold guys, and so on. The women however, even though they do look like they are not eating well, they all have healthy breasts and none of them have round bellies, and the differences in body shapes are a lot less noticeable.

Actually I'm going to have to disagree about the example I gave: the orgy scene. You don't see many variations there, either for men or women. Some are bald or have beards (and some women have different hair styles, which is as far as that goes) and some have a bit of fat, but that's about it.


I don't see all that much variation in body types here (ignoring the faces), and check out that woman's belly (early pregnancy?). :slan:

Offline m

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2010, 07:49:31 PM »
But that's a pretty vague way to put things. Nothing's going to beat pictures here, to see precise examples of what you mean. And men also all have a similar complexion as far as I can tell. There are few dark skinned men in the story.

I apologize again but I used the word complexion as meaning the general appearance of the body, and not the color and appearance of the skin. Apparently the definition I meant is obsolete; I only used it because it better matches the word I would have used in my native language, my bad.

But these are special simply because they play the roles they do, which is why they were made specifically repulsive: to add to the atmosphere. I wouldn't consider them "random guys" for that particular reason. If you want "random" guys, how about those who brought Nina to be executed?

See what I mean?

But that's her point, that men come in all shapes and sizes, whereas women, not so much.

Actually I'm going to have to disagree about the example I gave: the orgy scene. You don't see many variations there, either for men or women. Some are bald or have beards (and some women have different hair styles, which is as far as that goes) and some have a bit of fat, but that's about it.

I don't see all that much variation in body types here (ignoring the faces), and check out that woman's belly (early pregnancy?). :slan:

I did see the woman you refer to, and I did think that she may indeed have a prominent belly, but the amount of women with "a bit of fat" is far less than the amount of men. Finding a picture where the amount of nude men with "a bit of fat" depicted is not greater that the amount of women in the same situation (and in the same picture) would be a more complicated task. Also, and I'm sorry for insisting on this, all of the women have good looking breasts.

I think the problem my wife has is that the bodies of naked women are pretty good looking, even the woman you referred to would still qualify as reasonably attractive as you say.

I'd like to mention other situations in which the same can be seen: the women taken by the trolls, nice bodies, the women used to create Daka, nice bodies. Where are the nude women that don't have nice bodies? There are definitely not that many.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2010, 07:58:07 PM »
Also, and I'm sorry for insisting on this, all of the women have good looking breasts.

Yeah, and those penises on the guys look healthy too. :schierke:

Though I see more variety in both men and women than you're letting on, Midland women certainly have a prominent skinny and fair-haired type, but these aren't random samplings either, they're women selected for orgies or as prisoners. That's one reason there would be less variety seen among those women as opposed to the general population. I also notice that a lot of other large groups tend to look similar, such as Kushan or Midland soldiers. Not just their uniforms, but their features as well. Like those women, they're a specific group, but it's also easier to draw, and it's only natural in both reality or for the purposes of a story, that you'd select/or draw attractive women in these cases. On that note, I think there's a disparity in the amount of attention your paying to this relatively minuscule content (body type of nude characters, what a deep issue), and it's presented as a loaded question. If one wanted to see it that way, they certainly could find images to back up their claims, but then there's also exceptions and explanations that mitigate whatever "problem" this supposedly presents. So, I'm pretty much tossing this one back in the eye of the beholder.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2010, 08:24:30 PM »
As Aaz mentioned an element of visual storytelling is sometimes using ugly characters to do ugly things and in a story like Berserk, men are far more likely to be doing ugly things while naked than women are...  Our prime nekkid female baddies have been Slan and Rochine and two is an awfully small sample size.

I suppose I should agree though that Luca and her crew are awfully good looking girls for soldier-banging whores!

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2010, 08:28:41 PM »
But that's her point, that men come in all shapes and sizes, whereas women, not so much.

But... I think the picture I posted showed bodies that looked rather similar (and very good)? If you mean the special cases I mentioned, well then tell your wife this: if a poor boy was about to be raped by female bandits in Berserk, I'm certain they would be fat and ugly while the boy looked good. That's simply a matter of storytelling.

I did see the woman you refer to, and I did think that she may indeed have a prominent belly, but the amount of women with "a bit of fat" is far less than the amount of men.

Far less, I don't know. There aren't that many "random naked men" to begin with in the story, and few that aren't meant to be repulsive for the story's sake (i.e. murderous rapists and such). You can't ignore the fact this is a story being told with purpose in the way it represents characters and situations. The victims are naturally going to be represented in a more favorable light than their tormentors.

Finding a picture where the amount of nude men with "a bit of fat" depicted is not greater that the amount of women in the same situation (and in the same picture) would be a more complicated task.

If you look at the orgy scene that woman with the thick belly I posted comes from, you'll find that the men in there aren't particularly fat. And other than that particular moment in the story, you won't see a scene with many naked men and women together. It's so restrictive in the first place... I mean why only compare naked people? Why only their bodies? It's kind of superficial. A woman's beauty is not only in her breasts.

Also, and I'm sorry for insisting on this, all of the women have good looking breasts.

Is that your wife's main point here? That the story needs more sagging breasts? I mean I won't deny that there's not many of them, but there's also no truly morbidly obese naked men. And I'm not really missing them.

I think the problem my wife has is that the bodies of naked women are pretty good looking, even the woman you referred to would still qualify as reasonably attractive as you say.

Well like I said, you'll also find a good amount of "random guys" whose bodies aren't too bad looking among the relatively few we see in the story.

I suppose I should agree though that Luca and her crew are awfully good looking girls for soldier-banging whores!

Actually I don't know if I'd say that. Luca and Nina were attractive, but the other 3 girls were more plain looking, and intentionally so IMHO.

Offline m

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 08:50:32 PM »
Yeah, and those penises on the guys look healthy too. :schierke:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. What I mean is that in Berserk women have better looking breasts that regular real life women. They all have a fairly good size and shape and that's not exactly representative of real women in general. Even women that are clearly starving have that kind of breasts.

Though I see more variety in both men and women than you're letting on, Midland women certainly have a prominent skinny and fair-haired type, but these aren't random samplings either, they're women selected for orgies or as prisoners.

Right, the trolls were selecting the better looking women because they wanted the best looking trolls they could get. The same with the women taken to create Daka. We wouldn't want an ugly Daka out there now would we?

I imagine the size of a Daka army created using only women with good looking bodies wouldn't be too big, so why only show such women when showing the process?

Also, there is not much to go on by, but I don't think the women in the orgy we were referring to were selected to be there. I would rather think that they were there on their on accord.

it's also easier to draw

Now that's a reason.

and it's only natural in both reality or for the purposes of a story, that you'd select/or draw attractive women in these cases.

Why?

On that note, I think there's a disparity in the amount of attention your paying to this relatively minuscule content (body type of nude characters, what a deep issue), and it's presented as a loaded question. If one wanted to see it that way, they certainly could find images to back up their claims, but then there's also exceptions and explanations that mitigate whatever "problem" this supposedly presents. So, I'm pretty much tossing this one back in the eye of the beholder.

Here I need to emphasize that it wasn't me who first brought up this issue, it was my wife who did, and to you it may not be a big issue, but then again, you're not a woman. I honestly think that this issue has had an impact on my wife's appreciation for the story, even though to you it may be insignificant.

Also, I haven't presented a single image to back up my claim, and I'm yet to see the exceptions save for a slightly prominent belly, and I don't think your explanations were quite satisfactory.


If you look at the orgy scene that woman with the thick belly I posted comes from, you'll find that the men in there aren't particularly fat. And other than that particular moment in the story, you won't see a scene with many naked men and women together. It's so restrictive in the first place... I mean why only compare naked people? Why only their bodies? It's kind of superficial. A woman's beauty is not only in her breasts.

Is that your wife's main point here? That the story needs more sagging breasts? I mean I won't deny that there's not many of them, but there's also no truly morbidly obese naked men. And I'm not really missing them.

Well like I said, you'll also find a good amount of "random guys" whose bodies aren't too bad looking among the relatively few we see in the story.

Why compare naked people? Because when we talk about people wearing clothes, there are differences, and then we can see real women. If there are real men and women wearing clothes why not show real men and women naked? Why only more attractive ones?

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2010, 09:42:56 PM »
As to a woman's appreciation of the story, well.  Any girl who likes to read comics is already WAY WAY WAY WAY over the 'too many hot ladies' thing.  Sadly it takes a lot of motivation to draw frumpy naked women and the few artists that do it well tend to end up way over there in the unshaven insane borderline unreadable category (much as I love Sam Keith). 

The lack of body hair in Berserk, now that's a significant issue.  Do you expect me to believe every single one of those medieval women are shaving their pits on a regular basis? 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 10:53:27 PM by Lithrael »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 09:45:19 PM »
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. What I mean is that in Berserk women have better looking breasts that regular real life women. They all have a fairly good size and shape and that's not exactly representative of real women in general.

He means that the men all have penises of a fairly good size and shape from what we can see of them.

The same with the women taken to create Daka. We wouldn't want an ugly Daka out there now would we?

I imagine the size of a Daka army created using only women with good looking bodies wouldn't be too big, so why only show such women when showing the process?

We see a total of 2 women being used to create Daka, plus a few corpses. The second one's breasts didn't look all that big either.

Here I need to emphasize that it wasn't me who first brought up this issue, it was my wife who did, and to you it may not be a big issue, but then again, you're not a woman. I honestly think that this issue has had an impact on my wife's appreciation for the story, even though to you it may be insignificant.

Maybe your wife should register an account and post her own impressions then? Because you're not a woman either, and are not her specifically, and so you might not be conveying her feelings with exactitude. But regardless of one's gender, that "issue" actually is insignificant, and Griff is more than correct in questioning its relevancy. Take it from my own wife if you need to.

Also, I haven't presented a single image to back up my claim

That's not to your credit.

I'm yet to see the exceptions save for a slightly prominent belly

I already pretty much disproved what you said about the men. If you're looking for obese naked women with sagging breasts, you won't find any. But like I said, I don't think anyone's missing them. Sorry for your wife. To be honest the whole thing is kind of ridiculous to me.

Why compare naked people? Because when we talk about people wearing clothes, there are differences, and then we can see real women.

I don't understand your sentence. Clothes or not, there are no "real women" in Berserk. And as I already pointed out, physical attractiveness does not solely depend on being fat/slim and having well-formed breasts. Besides, there are many physical deficiencies that can be found in real-life men that you don't see in the average guy in Berserk. Maybe not as common as the percentage of oddly shaped breasts in a given female population, I don't know (and neither do you). What I do know is that you ignored most of what I said, though. So I'll just say this:

Has your wife noticed how men have no nipples in Berserk? It's almost like they're not real men from the real world. Also, what about body hair? All those guys (and girls!) are so glabrous... Not realistic at all! It's almost like this is a fantasy story whose purpose isn't to represent a statistically accurate sample of the real world's population, but to tell an entertaining tale. What a disgrace! Reminds me of all those movies and TV series that don't feature enough fat and/or ugly people... How unrepresentative of real life!

Offline Griffith

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2010, 09:58:25 PM »
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. What I mean is that in Berserk women have better looking breasts that regular real life women. They all have a fairly good size and shape and that's not exactly representative of real women in general. Even women that are clearly starving have that kind of breasts.

The feeling is mutual on not being sure what you or your wife are trying to say. Nothing in Berserk is representative of the real world. That's why this is so asinine and really your wife's problem, to be frank.

Right, the trolls were selecting the better looking women because they wanted the best looking trolls they could get. The same with the women taken to create Daka. We wouldn't want an ugly Daka out there now would we?

I imagine the size of a Daka army created using only women with good looking bodies wouldn't be too big, so why only show such women when showing the process?

Don't be a smart ass, especially when you're being obtuse, it's a bad combination. These women were also being selected specifically for sex if you didn't realize (like humans, the trolls didn't seem fundamentally interested in only procreation). Ganishka would similarly have to impregnate the women somehow unless you think they were just all pregnant when he found them. Women selected for sex being physically attractive? Gee, that's an odd coincidence.

Also, there is not much to go on by, but I don't think the women in the orgy we were referring to were selected to be there. I would rather think that they were there on their on accord.

Yeah, they were probably empowered type-A militant feminists with self-involved agendas. Anyway, I'm not saying they were forced there, but the folks in charge probably weren't inviting the ugliest women in town to their fuck ritual either.

Why?

C'mon, if you have to ask, you'll never know. :slan:

Here I need to emphasize that it wasn't me who first brought up this issue, it was my wife who did, and to you it may not be a big issue, but then again, you're not a woman. I honestly think that this issue has had an impact on my wife's appreciation for the story, even though to you it may be insignificant.

Well, she's not here and you're the one pushing it (I thought she only read to 23, so you're the one talking about Daka and Trolls with me, unless she skipped ahead just to scrutinize the tits there too =), also, I wanted to refrain from bringing her into it personally if she's not here to argue. But yeah yeah yeah, this is of course an issue I can't possibly understand because I'm a man, or maybe because when I read the story I'm not actually going through it focusing on the naked people and counting perky breasts, but rather judging it on its substance, not my body issues (which isn't one of the major themes). As for her appreciation of the story, if this is what she reads into it and takes away from it, if these are her deep and most important insights that must be shared first and foremost, if she can't give it the benefit of the doubt and appreciate it otherwise, then big loss. Tell her to stop reading it.

Also, I haven't presented a single image to back up my claim, and I'm yet to see the exceptions save for a slightly prominent belly, and I don't think your explanations were quite satisfactory.

Thanks for pointing out you haven't backed up your hearsay with anything other than your (wife's) opinions, and I'm not too high on either at the moment, so I'm not worried that you're unsatisfied. If you've both made up your minds and want to see this as a legitimate concern, go ahead. There's plenty about Berserk that I wouldn't think would be appealing to a lot of people, this strikes me as charging at windmills though.

Why compare naked people? Because when we talk about people wearing clothes, there are differences, and then we can see real women. If there are real men and women wearing clothes why not show real men and women naked? Why only more attractive ones?

I think you've already got a pretty good preconceived notion why, it's pretty transparent in your questions, and as you say, no other explanations are going to satisfy you('re wife). Unfortunately, it's a misguided notion because, clothed or not, these aren't real people and not representative of reality in any way, and they're not under obligation to be (Berserk isn't some representative body =). I don't recommend anyone judge themselves or others based on the larger than life representations in Berserk. That's what makes this whole thing ridiculous and seemingly baggage of hers she brought to the story, not the other way around. It's the same thing that's said of movies, TV and magazines, and not just concerning women. Berserk is no exception or special case, although I can't think of much non-pornographic media that has more full-frontal male nudity than Berserk either. Should we make issue of that one way or another; celebrate, condemn or otherwise scrutinize it? Again, I don't think so, it's just not that critical.

Also, you said you wanted women's opinions, so why don't you address Lith's posts then? They probably have the best perspective in here.

The lack of body hair in Berserk, now that's a significant issue.  Do you expect me to believe every single one of those medieval women are shaving their pits on a regular basis?

Don't forget the complete lack of nipples on men, it makes me self-conscious about mine. :judo:

Offline Irvine

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2010, 11:06:13 PM »
Hm all this reminds me of the endless discussions about the looks of females in video games. Mostly they are started by angry feminists. ::)
The majority of Berserk readers are men so what's wrong with good looking women? Besides this Berserk is a fantasy manga and no realistic nude painting.

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2010, 11:24:39 PM »
Yeah, video game women are straight up eye candy.  What ya gonna do.  If you want hot oiled men you gotta go for the genres where beefcake brings cash.  Honestly the mainstream comics industry, along with the fantasy-action film genre, are just about the only ostensibly straight-male audience places you can find hot nearly naked guys by the assload.

Don't forget the complete lack of nipples on men, it makes me self-conscious about mine. :judo:

Heh!  I didn't even think of that.  I don't think I've ever really noticed it.  Clearly I'm failing to properly observe issues that could have serious significance to the opposite sex!  

But I did notice that Guts certainly isn't a show-er.  Clearly I am objectifying the opposite sex.

Snark aside, it's the inclusion of women as real characters that interests me.  And within its setting, I think Berserk does that extremely well.  What they look like naked doesn't enter into it.

Also Schierke's ass is huge and she has no tits.

Offline slan69

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2010, 11:42:27 PM »
I don't see what the problem is. I'm a girl and I like reading mangas with hot chicks and muscular guys. (No fat chicks/guys.) :mozgus: Hahaha jk, anyways it's not like Miura is the only one drawing women this way, tons of artist do it. It's best to leave this subject alone since it's going nowhere. Miura is only drawing what the people want to see that's all. :griffnotevil:
Quote -

Love, hate, pain, pleasure, life, death. Everything is there… This is human... This is demonic!

~Slan~

Offline Griffith

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2010, 05:45:43 AM »


Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2010, 08:34:36 AM »
anyways it's not like Miura is the only one drawing women this way, tons of artist do it.

It actually strikes me as unfair to remark on the lack of variation in naked female body shapes compared to that of males without noting that the variety of random males and females (in general, not just naked) is already off the charts compared to the average graphic novel.

Offline Doc

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2010, 09:33:42 AM »
I happen to be a male of the species and I understand your wife's point of view, so it's not just a gal thing. I don't get the 'it's only fiction' argument, anyway. BERSERK isn't an abstract piece of art. It's a fantasy tale set within a pseudo-reality. You're going to get people of all shapes and sizes; that's life. My only theory would be that Miura depicts these women as faceless creatures because essentially that is what they are, hence the similarities represented in the Pagan orgy, Troll, Daka moments.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2010, 09:56:01 AM »
I happen to be a male of the species and I understand your wife's point of view, so it's not just a gal thing.

It's not a "gal thing" in the first place, since so far only one woman has had a problem with this non-issue versus two men (m and yourself).

I don't get the 'it's only fiction' argument, anyway. BERSERK isn't an abstract piece of art. It's a fantasy tale set within a pseudo-reality. You're going to get people of all shapes and sizes; that's life.

I'm sorry, but who tells the bounds of that "pseudo-reality"? Kentarou Miura, that's who. If he says people don't have body hair in Berserk, then they don't. If he says men don't have nipples, then they don't. If he says magic exists, then it does. If he says Guts can effectively use the Dragon Slayer, then he can. And if he says the women that the trolls kidnapped for reproductive purposes were all relatively young and healthy, and that the people in Enoch were all slim in general, then they were. That's it. There's no argument here. Only people who don't understand what they're being told.

My only theory would be that Miura depicts these women as faceless creatures because essentially that is what they are, hence the similarities represented in the Pagan orgy, Troll, Daka moments.

So your theory is the obvious? Yeah, these women aren't characters of any importance to the story. They look generic because they are generic (an example of minor but non-generic characters would be Luca's group, who were defined as characters). Like I said, you can find plenty of generic men as well if you want (e.g. soldiers). But it turns out that just like in real life (whoa!), women tend to be the victims of sexual abuse a lot more often than men do, especially during wars, and so we've seen more groups of nondescript naked women than groups of nondescript naked men. And there was little variation in the shape of their breasts. Astounding, I know. Maybe, like I said before, you should keep in mind that individually drawing these background women is already more of an effort than most artists ever muster.

Offline Doc

Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2010, 10:17:45 AM »
It's not a "gal thing" in the first place, since so far only one woman has had a problem with this non-issue versus two men (m and yourself).

I was responding to Irvine's post, more than anything, when he said that it's mainly "angry-feminists" who challenge this kinda thing.

I'm sorry, but who tells the bounds of that "pseudo-reality"? Kentarou Miura, that's who. If he says people don't have body hair in Berserk, then they don't. If he says men don't have nipples, then they don't. If he says magic exists, then it does. If he says Guts can effectively use the Dragon Slayer, then he can. And if he says the women that the trolls kidnapped were all relatively young and that the people in Enoch were all slim, then they were. That's it. There's no argument here. Only people who don't understand what they're being told.

Well, of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't open to scrutiny, does it? It sounds quite close-minded to say that because this is Miura's realm it is therefore absolute.

So your theory is the obvious? Yeah, these women aren't characters of any importance to the story. They look generic because they are generic. Like I said, you can find plenty of generic men as well if you want (soldiers, for example). But it turns out that just like in real life (whoa!), women tend to be the victims of sexual abuse a lot more often than men do, especially during wars, and so we've seen more groups of nondescript naked women than groups of nondescript naked men.

At least we agree on something out of this. Like I said, I can see why Miura makes this artistic choice, but I have a predilection for seeing a variety of body shapes, whether they're a random woman or not. It engages the senses and adds another layer of realism to the illusion that is fiction.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2010, 12:01:10 PM »
I was responding to Irvine's post, more than anything, when he said that it's mainly "angry-feminists" who challenge this kinda thing.

The forum member "Irvine" is a woman, as indicated by her profile.

Well, of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't open to scrutiny, does it? It sounds quite close-minded to say that because this is Miura's realm it is therefore absolute.

I haven't seen much scrutiny on your part so far, but anyway as far as Berserk's world goes, Miura's will is indeed absolute. It is his work and his world. That has nothing to do with being open minded or not, and it's a lack of good faith on your part to pretend to consider the depiction of the world outside of the context of its story and while singling out a very precise set of criteria for which there are no neutral occurrences.

I have a predilection for seeing a variety of body shapes, whether they're a random woman or not. It engages the senses and adds another layer of realism to the illusion that is fiction.

Then you must be overjoyed every time you read Berserk since, as I have pointed out, it's among the works that have some of the most varied "random" background characters out there.

Offline Aphasia

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2010, 03:01:34 PM »
I'm impressed by the non-issues people can build into a conflict sometimes.  Being disappointed over this seems more akin to not liking a certain style.  This huge argument to me all boils down to an artist who likes portraying women in a certain manner.  Maybe Miura likes drawing women with tone abs and large backsides.  Frank Frazetta did exactly the same thing.  Not because he was sexist, but because he simply enjoyed that shape in women.

Offline Truder

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Re: Disparity between nude men and women
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 03:10:33 PM »
Not because he was sexist, but because he simply enjoyed that shape in women.

Indeed. :carcus: